From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nolan. They call me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. This is our listener mail segments. So every week we find at least three pieces of correspondence from the most important part of this show, your fellow listeners. We've got some, We've got some doozies here today, and as we've said in the past, we get this massive amount of correspondence via email, via social accounts, via our good old telephone number one eight three three st d W y t K and Matt. I believe that our our first piece of listener mail to day is in fact a message, right it is. It's a message from Atlanta, and let's just play it. Um Hi guys, um, I'm wanna and I was listening to hear last or one of your latest listener mails, and you were talking about the cruise industry, and I was making a really interesting thing to look into for your listeners and to bring awareness to it's the disappearance of Rebecca COLOREUM. She disappeared in UM from a cruise ship which are has since been realized to sort of use palpable hugs of human trafficking. And I think that aspect of cruise ships and stuff could make for an really interesting, cool episode thanks to what the show by and there we go. We we have been talking about cruises quite a bit in the recent past. I think our interest was first peaked when we were just learning about UM, the the trap, the viral in infectious trap that a cruise ship can become when out at sea and just a single infected person gets on board UM. And you know it then became I guess, our interest in what the industry overall has been doing for many years about law when you're on international waters UM and just some of some of the industries UM regular habits about how they keep costs down UM really interesting stuff. But we have not talked specifically about any disappearances. I don't think, Ben, unless I'm wrong. We talked in the asked about. We've explored some cases of people who went missing in international waters while not necessarily on a cruise ship. But just like that episode of Always Sunny in Philadelphia, you know, the the rules are different on the high seas, and I really love that you pointed that out. We have not talked about Rebecca Quarium, who disappeared in March of two thousand eleven March twenty. She was a crew member on a ship called the Disney Wonder. And I do think that this could warrant a a full episode because it already has some of the commonalities we've seen in other controversial missing cases. Uh. Number one, there are a lot of theories. Number two, there's a lot of valid criticism of the subsequent investigation. Then, of course we have to realize that without having done the kind of research would need to do to make a full episode this, we have to realize that this gets very close to us messing with the Big Mouse Disney Disney Wonder, that's Big Mickey, that's the Big Mickey mob Man. The Mouse will come for you. It reminds me of that show Succession that was on HBO, not The Big Scandal. No spoilers but yeah, it's a thing. Well there. Yeah, there's a massive corporation that has an arm that is essentially their cruise line arm of their company, and you can only imagine that this would be a public relations nightmare. UM, So I would say the company that owns this cruise liner where something may or may not have happened, would have an incentive to keep it as quiet as possible or as needed to be for the investigation to continue along. I'm assuming I'm assuming others maybe looking on at what's occurring here, what occurred, how the investigation moved forward with a more skeptical eye when it comes to the actions of the company. Um, there is a lot to cover in this topic. I would say there's a there's a pretty extensive timeline that begins around five am on March that you were talking about their ben which was a Tuesday that it actually saw Rebecca on the phone. It's a CCTV camera just you can watch her being upset, having an argument of some kind, or being just looking like she is upset by what is being said on that phone call. And then she ended up not showing up for work, not not showing up for her post the next morning, and that was that she's been gone ever since, and people have gone overboard in the past. But here's the thing to set the stage right. The most likely, the most likely disappearance with someone on the ocean in a boat is going to be somehow that person going overboard. Uh, the seas were calm Uh. There there are tons of discrepancies here too. Just for anyone who's not familiar with the case. You quickly find weird stuff like there were flip flops in a room that were the wrong size. That doesn't prove anything, but it's weird. It doesn't seem like you would have committed suicide. But we don't know what's on that phone call. Uh, we do know that people have not been happy with it. One other screwy thing is jurisdiction, right, because I think this ship is flagged in the Bahamas, correct, So the initial law enforcement has to be carried out by law enforcement in the Bahamas. Yeah. Where does the human trafficking angle come in? The human trail? Oh? What where our color m Atlanta was talking about cruise lines potentially being a source of human trafficking, and you know, I do not currently have the raw data for that or the evidence to support that claim. But any time you've got a massive ship that is traveling around through international waters to to other countries, and there are people boarding the ship, there are people getting off the ship. Um, there's certainly opportunity right now that makes sense. Well, yeah, consider, I mean consider the employment practices can become so sticky when you are hiring people from one country to work on a ship of a different country to go into international waters. And as you said, Matt, make many stops along the way, it's not impossible for things to go awry. Like this is the transportation sector, right It's the entertainment sector, sure, but it's also the transit sector. And the transit sector is rife with opportunity for traffickers, like uh, sex trafficking maybe in the way that you might see it occur in Las Vegas, like the to put a fine point on it, Uh, the John's are the people who think they're engaging in some kind of consensual sex work, maybe actually involved with someone who is being forced or core coerced to be there. But I do want to point out, without too much of a spoiler, I think it wasn't too long ago that Rebecca Quarium's girlfriend at the time said that she said that, in her opinion, Rebecca took a lot of drugs and then maybe deliberately leaped off the boat. But that's still like not officially proven, right yeah there, yeah, yeah, not at all. Um. You really have to look at her parents who have been fighting battles in and out of court since March of with with both Disney Cruise Line, with the Disney Company I guess and their their cruise line arm as well as just attempting to find out more information from the various investigators that have been working on the case. UM. I don't want to spoil too much here, but as of twixten the the company did settle with the the family. Uh yeah, so so there was money paid. I I don't I highly doubt that any wrongdoing was you know, was admitted. There no no admission of guilt. That's that's a settlement. Is also you know, it's not necessarily a sketchy thing. Again, I think now we're all being careful because we do want a full episode and we don't want to spoil it, but but to be very very transparent. Um, when a corporation or even a celebrity, for instance, reaches an out of court settlements, then what they're doing is they're they're paying the person off, paying the the aggrieved party off, but they're doing it outside of court, meaning there is no legal admission of guilt and the case will be considered settled and no further legal proceedings will occur, at least in that in that specific instance, you know what I mean, Like we see criminal cases get go to mistrial or get dismissed and then a civil case is successful. So there, what's also like, not without precedent, the idea of people disappearing from cruise ships. I just found like a market Watch article from two thousand seventeen UM, so the stats will be a little higher by now. But since two thousand, according to this article, around three hundred people have gone overboard from cruise ships and ferries um. And that's according to data collected by Ross Klein, as professor in the School of Social Work at Memorial University of Newfoundland and Canada. And of those folks, like, there are you know several many that are still still missing, presumed dead. So it's you know, it's a thing that happened. People drink a lot on cruise ships, and they can just topple overboard of their own volition, I guess, but you know, on their own doesn't necessarily mean that there's foul play. And I was wondering too, like do cruise ships ever like piggyback and carry cargo as well? And apparently that's not really a thing. So I'm wondering, like where on the ship would human trafficking, you know, victims be held. I mean, I'm assuming, of course there's gonna be internal cargo for the things that they need to make all the meals and you know, whatever else services are provided on on the cruise ship. But I'd be interested to see what the stats are for, you know, proving that human trafficking takes place on you know, commercial cruise lines. It's tough. I mean, it's it's it's a tough stat to pull in an accurate way because to your question, many of the to your first question, many of those human trafficking victims are in some cases gonna look like any other, uh, any other passenger. That's a good point. They're being controlled by, you know, their their main abuser or trafficker who is putting them up um under any number of ruses and The truth about the matter is if you are if you are a company operating ships that take hundreds and hundreds of people on a boat regularly, you are going to have a difficult time giving each single individual a background check other than making sure that their credit card works and that they uh that they can legally travel to whatever country you're taking them too. So it's it's tough. It's tough, and it's it's a problem that we know. Um, it's a problem that we know the industry has taken steps to address, but it's a it's a herculean effort. Uh. On a brighter note, I I know I mentioned this, like every two or three years, if you want to travel across the ocean and you don't want to go out and cruise ship, and you're flexible with your time, you can get a really affordable ticket on a cargo ship and it'll just be like you and the crew people maybe two other people who love unorthodox travel and uh maybe maybe you'll work on that novel, who knows, uh, but you you have to bake in like to to two to six weeks of flexibility on either side. Yikes. I imagine just getting like, for whatever reason, getting stuck outside in a bay somewhere in this giant cargo ship because you're not allowed to dock yet, and there's some kind of trade dispute occurring, and you just then you just live there on a cargo ship. That's your life now, which would be great if guys, if we could record on the cargo ship, that would be pretty neat. I'm still working that out. There's some technical difficulties. Well, Ben, I mean you'll recall and not the two distant past, we were recording pretty regularly in what felt like a shipping container, so we'd be perfectly at home, uh in such a situation. I mean, I'm in that now, actually doing it. Guys. This isn't hours though I am on a cargo ship. Don't be mad at me. I thought you would say, I thought, do I tell you what I was on the boat? I thought you might say, no, I was wondering what that sloshing sound. I was, yeah, Well, I just wo Just to bring it back to Rebecca Quarnium, you guys, and without spoiling too much, I think this should be an episode that we cover in the future. And this is what I want to leave you with. This is from a Hollywood Reporter article that is discussing the I guess the result of the court case that went through UM. This is a quote from Jim Walker, a Miami based attorney who represented aquariums in the United States throughout this case. He says, the case has been resolved. They're pursuing an inquest in the UK, but I'm not supposed to talk about the case. So that's interesting right now Here Here is another quote, this one from British parliamentarian at least in Chris Matheson. Here's his quote. My worst fear is that Rebecca Quarium was murdered. It's a possibility and it needs to be investigated properly. The more you look into this, the more it smells rotten, the more it smells like a crime has taken place. So UM terrible, like absolutely horrifying and terrible for the Koium family and for Rebecca Chorium herself. However, for you know, the possibilities here of uncovering something that we can really dig into, that we can talk about on this show and maybe expose some stuff going on and problems, like you're speaking to knowl It feels like this topic is right before it so I'm excited to dig in more. Thank you so much Lanta for calling and letting us know about this. Yes, great, thank you, and thank you to everybody who's written in response to our our earlier exploration of cruise ships. There's there's a lot beneath the surface there, you know. Um, we can't wait to dig in. And one of the one of the most amazing things here is is just how much firsthand experience we've been learning about in your correspondencies with us. Uh, we're getting an inside peak and we want to We want to go further down the rabbit hole, as is our want. Speaking of inside peaks, we also we received a number of correspondencies from people who reached out. I had no idea this many people would talk to us about this, people who reached out to tell us how you can, in fact get booted from one of our favorite secret societies. We'll tell you more about this after a quick word from our sponsors and we're back. Uh. Yeah, So the question has arisen, Will where where did this come up? Fellas the idea of getting booted from the Mason's Do you remember how that came about? Wasn't that on a news episode or what was That's Garrison Courtney, who was pretending to be a deep cover ci apy and built built a bunch of high ranking government officials out of millions. He got close. The people he called were so important that he got close to signing some multibillion dollar contracts, which would have also given him full legal immunity. At one point, he claimed to be hooking someone up in contact with an ambassador that he said he knew through the Freemasons. When the marketing question finally spoke to said ambassador, it turned out that the only thing that ambassador knew was that this con man, Garrison Courtney, had been kicked out of the Mason's uh. And I think that's where the three of us started asking ourselves, Well, the four of us started asking ourselves, how do how do you get kicked out of the Masons. I think it's interesting question, and also the way it occurred to us as interesting because because of the paths that we, uh, we sort of follow with some of these stories. You know, secret societies have a certain air of sinisterness to them, and I think it's certainly possible to ascribe that same thing to the Freemasons. But at the end of the day. There's a lot of information out there about the Freemasons, and you know, anyone can be nominated to be a member, and you can even go to your local chapter and petition to to be a member. We'll talk about that in a second, but, uh, the idea that you know, somehow Masons are these like high level you know, evil types, are criminal masterminds or something. At least that's where my mind goes, like, how do you get kicked out of an organization that's already pure evil? But that's definitely not the case. The Masons do a lot of good work for the community, as we know, like the Shriners. There's an off shoot of the Mason's sponsor all of these children's hospitals, and you know, you could argue it's just a front for all of their nefarious underground dealings, but you know, it's it's an interesting thing to think about. And it's also a very long tradition of Freemasonry, as we know, and there's certainly been some shadowy figures that have been connected to it over the years, but also some very prominent and uh and upstanding figures might have been connected to it, one of which I would argue is our anonymous email email or um. He even doesn't even give a name. He just has a very clandestine email address using letters and numbers that I don't know what it necessarily is pointing to, if it's initials or weapons. Quite a lot of numbers. But he has this to say about the question. Uh at end here, Hi, guys, I was in the Freemasons for just over five years, and in that time I climbed offices in the Blue Lodge as well as obtained the rank of Nights templar okay in the York Right, as well as the thirty second degree in the Scottish Rite. The quickest way to get booted out was by being convicted of a crime. Falons aren't allowed in and getting one will put you out. Misdemeanors are hidden miss demeanors, that's mine largely depending on who you know. You can be ejected for non payment of dues. That was a question that came up, but I've never known that to happen. There were guys that hadn't paid for years. Generally, anything over a year past duo will mean you're getting letters. I never had access to the quote upper Echelon's but I did know people who were from my time in It all seems like traditional frat things. The main secret is the secrecy and elitism itself. Any other secrets are handshakes, code words, and ritual things. I think, repeating phrases, acting out scenes, things like that no one would really care about. If you attend a public session that is held once a year in most places, you will witness what happens at even the highest levels really interesting information. UM, I wouldn't be surprised if small cliques form within the lodge who may get into things that the public wouldn't like. But I think you could say this for any group of considerable size. I'm willing to answer any questions the best of my ability. Anonymous, Hey check this out. Wait, wait, let me get it's all frame. But do you guys remember this one? Yeah? For the Yeah there it is one of the YouTube crowd. Is there no help for the widow's son? Uh? But I don't feel like we're compromising any any Masonic organizations in the crowd by saying that this is the age of the internet. Well, and neither it is our anonymous emailer. He seems to think that anybody going to one of these public gatherings would would witness a lot of the same stuff. And then maybe it's not as hush hush as one might think. Um, and that the ritualism of the organization is the notion of this secrecy, but it's maybe not as ironclad as one might think. Did no, did you see that we got an We got another email really recently about this. I just want to read just this title other one from from another current Mason. This person says, sometimes a brother will decide that he is no longer interested in being involved, maybe he learned that we don't control the world, or he's sick of eating green beans at dinner. When he can then issue him what is called a dem it, which is a letter stating that he left of his own accord and there are no claims against him. It's like an honorable discharge, is what this person. Yeah, this idea of like what what amounts to an amicable breakup is is pretty refreshing. That's that's a good thing that a lot of more secretive organizations don't really have. I also want to shout out someone who who wrote a great letter to us about this from from Maine. UH and some of our our personal contacts who have been involved in freemasonry, who have talked to us about it. Um. The point that you make, Anonymous that I really appreciate it. I think we all appreciated, was that the idea of collusion and conspiracy is likely to form in groups of any size, and it is likely to be the result of a small clique or faction within a larger community working towards their own ends, and the larger community may know nothing about this. Like uh, like think about this. Think about a small town corruption rampant in America historically, right, there's there's gonna be there's gonna be a mob in you know, uh, some equivalent of a mob in three Toe, Arkansas, just as much as in Chicago or New York City. They might just not be Italian, they might not call themselves a mob, but the sheriff and the mayor and whomever probably run the town. So with that in mind, and these smaller communities especially, it's completely possible that they would all happen to be members of the same social network, whether that's the Rotarians or the Lions Club or yes, the Freemasons, And then would they meet at the Lions Club? Was like at the Toastmasters or whatever at the Freemasons uh lodge, they're able to meet under the cover of that organization, and then they just gotta go to another room have a little what we would call a breakout session, and they're like, Okay, how how are we going to fix this election? You know what I mean. It's the same thing we talked about with all these secret societies, Like we we had this conversation with with John Hodgman. If I'm not mistaken about the book and Snake, Uh secret society at Harvard or where was it? Where where is that organ Yale? That's right, and that's sort of the deal is at any of these there's going to be an opportunity to mingle with high level people with which you could potentially collude if both so on into doing so um and uh. But it doesn't mean necessarily the entire organization is inherently corrupt or based on overthrowing the you know, the status quo in some former fashion. Yeah, we've also learned is that you don't need a secret society for any of that. You just need. All you need is a country club that's exactly own a giant country club somewhere near Boca Raton. Maybe I don't know, you go to Boca or I don't know. It could be in in the heart of Atlanta, could be anywhere. Really, just oh and operate a country like right. I've got to say too to anonymous and to the other folks who have written in to give us some excellent information about freemasonry, which which I greatly appreciate. Um. My immediate question now and it was so hard not to email everybody about this is Uh. There's a line you read from our anonymous are anonymous listener Noel where it's like, misdemeanors are hit and miss or as you said, misdemeanor. Yeah, and largely it depends on nepotism, right, the end result of whether or not one can stay with the organization. That's fine. A lot of these organizations do operate primarily on nepotism. As a matter of fact, I would say nepotism is one of the number one things holding the species back overall. Unfortunately, meritocracy is too often a myth, but nepotism aside. I wonder what the misdemeanors are are the misdemeanors solely of moral aptitude, as you'll hear sometimes on a customs form or like, I would love if there was, for some reason something incredibly specific and something that seemed relatively meaningless or innocuous to us non Masons on the outside. And I wonder if that's like the number one crime in freemasonry. I hope to God it's stamp fraud for some reason. They're like the one thing that will you know, sometimes you hit people with a car and sometimes they die. That's an accident. Accidents happen. But if you make fake stamps, perhaps perhaps coin forgery, Yes, that would be another good, real specific way poins are fitter exactly. I love that I've seen. I've seen the signs at all the gas stations. Don't ask for a coin change. Um. I did find an article written by a Mason master Mason by the name of Matthew Arnold McIntosh on a website called w V. Mason's dot org, and the headline as high Moral Standards of Freemasons. And he goes through and kind of writes a treatise about how at its heart the whole purpose of freemasonry is to impart this high moral standard on its members. Um. And then I was sort of like, Okay, how how do I become a Mason? Didn't take long to find a website that that gives you kind of a step by step in the how to do so? It's Masonic Dash Lodge, Dash of Dash Education dot com and UH. It reads almost like an old timey pamphlet Become a Freemason? Would you like to become a Freemason and belong to the oldest and largest fraternity in the world? He has how Uh You must first find a Masonic Lodge location near you, contact them and ask for a petition to join uh. And then if you become a Freemason, you will This is like serious selling points. Join both the oldest and largest fraternity in the world. Join a brotherhood of over two million men of all ages, from all races, religions and countries, and from all walks of life. Uh. And then it has some pictures of some real cool UH signet rings that you get. I guess when you become a member? UM? Why do so many men want to become a Freemason? And it describes the organization as a voluntary fraternal organization composed of men of goodwill, good character, and good reputation whom in most jurisdictions around the world, believe in an almighty creator and practice the spirit of universal brotherhood to man. A lot of man talk in this though. Yeah, that's one of the big things. Yeah, we need to we need to get in front of that before someone's writing to us about this. So earlier, I think one of us said, anybody can get in. I know some of us are writing emails about that right now. Don't worry. Pause pause your email. Uh, yes, it's only dudes. There are associated organizations that are not entirely just dudes, but that is that is one great discrimination of of the masodic orders. I think also as you as you mentioned earlier in old uh one need not have a specific religion, but must have some sort of belief in spiritual Yes, exactly. And then just just to wrap this up, just wanted to I've got this giant alphabetical list and I'm gonna kind of just skip around a little bit. But uh, just some some high you know, highly influential and uh big deal folks who who were Mason's and we know this Abbott Bud uh Bud. William Abbott of Abbott and Costello fame was a Mason Um buzz Aldrin. It was, in fact a Mason, the second man to walk on the moon. Let's see, we've got Gerald Ford, who was a president. We know Henry Ford, automobile pioneer, of course. Let's see. Just you, you, just you. You throw a pin at this list and you're gonna find somebody influential. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints a k a. The Mormons. Isn't that interesting? I do love the idea. This is infascinating to me, and I think we've already kind of expressed why this is. But it's interesting. I think of Masonry as being all about these clandestine kind of rights and um, you know, rituals, and to me, that would kind of fly on the face of being a Christian or someone who's very closely identifies with you know. But no, that's not the case. They can they their hand in hand, and one doesn't necessarily require the other. We talked about that, right. One of the only things you have to have is a belief in a higher power, and it does not matter what that higher power is in your mind, as long as you believe that there is one. However, Freemasons have been enemies of UM, have been enemies of dogmatic, oppressive religions uh, and in the past have been enemies of oppressive governments. I mean, look at look at the French Revolution, look at how many founding fathers of the United States were affiliated with Freemasonry. It's it's kind of a there's something collegiate and salon like about it, the idea of the free exchange of concepts and being able to say, well, you know, I I'm not on board with this whole Catholicism thing and not go to church jail or whatever lose I like that. Well that's what they call it. You know. It's one of many Enlightenment organizations like the Rosa Crucians or the you know, UM, there's many very what do we talk about the Order of the Pug Remember that one the pug one from ridiculous history or he kissed the Pugs butts That was a French Wasn't that a French backlash against freemac Like Freemasonry was outlawed in France, and so they made this other organization. U Voltaire was a Freemason UM, a very influential and French philosopher who wrote about oppressive governments and oppressive systems. So uh, interesting stuff, guys, um But yeah, I think that that does it for this one. Did you know George Clinton was a Freemason of Parliament funkadelic No, the third Vice President of the United States? Who am I thinking out? I just did it because I knew you would think about that, George Clinton. Sorry, I want to he's he's a Mason of Funk. That's I mean. I think a lot I think a lot of people would, um well, would agree that there there's tangible benefit uh to these organizations, both for the individuals involved and for often for the communities right in which those uh those lodges exist, like to the point about the Shriners and funding medical care for for the medium for children. I think I think they get vilified sometimes, like we never did an episode on the Anti Masonic Party, which confirms my standing theory that if you want, uh, if you want something like that, like a political part or religion, to be successful, you have to be aspirational and offering something. You can't found a party just against something. What do you do when that's god? You know what I mean? Like no war, Polar Bears, club. The Polar Bears are extinct. Uh, but we already spent all this money on the on the chips and dip in the catering. So we're still going to get together. Wow, that's really that's really great. But example, but this is this is something relevant at some point everybody listening right now we're watching this, go out find a list of the former Supreme Court justices within the United States that were or are members of Free and Accepted Mason's. It's just interesting to see, Like, when it comes to law and politics, Ben as you as you noted earlier, a lot of people who are in government are are a part of this organization. Would I be correct in assuming that many of them who were Freemasons would be more on the progressive tip than conservative or is there really not much of a line there? It's not much of a line. Honestly. It's tough because the definition of what is or is not considered conservative or progressive has changed so much over just a few centuries, you know, Like, of course, we're not that far away from the time when um women voting was considered to be like this radical, extreme idea. What's next, We're gonna blow up the moon and then later, you know a few decades ago we thought about doing just that. Well, the most important former Freemason to me is is clearly Robert Pershing Wadlow, the tallest human on record, um, who I believe was the guy that that you you'll see a sculpture of outside most Ripley's, believe it or not, locations the world over. And I think Handsome Family as a as a beautiful heartbreaking song about him. I did not know he was a Mason, but it makes sense also, Matt, I'm sorry, I don't want to keep us going too long on this, but to the point you raise about the justices, I would ask, is it possible that people at the higher levels of government or maybe higher levels of business as well, just tend to do more extracurricular activities? You know? Are they also like uh yeah, are they like big in their h o A. Do they go get like public notary certification because they just like the certificate? I mean? Are they members of toastmasters as well? Rotarians? Probably philanthropic organizations? Yeah, yeah, the whole nine, all the good ones. It certainly is encouraged. You know, when you're in school, I gotta get those extra curriculous up to get into a good college. Well, it makes sense, but we we're talking about the differences in our geologies within within members of freemasony. Think about this. The first director of the FBI, j Edgar Hoover, the guy who called Martin Luther King Jr. I think I can't tell you the exact quote, but the most dangerous man essentially within the United States at one point in time. Um, the person who instituted co intel pro and spying on people who were attempting to capture their civil liberties in equality. That guy was a freemason. Also, Uh, someone who was on the other side fighting for civil rights, Reverend Jesse Jackson was a freemason or is. It's just really interesting to me that you can have this wide swath of belief in things that you would fight for and the presidents skull and bones. Think about that. No, that's a good point. Also like strong thermendos and notoriously, Uh, Dixie kratt Um the Republican senator who from from the state of Georgia. If I'm not mistaken, I hope he's a bad guy, bad bad guy. Um. Last one, and then we definitely moved on. But there's a lot of interesting names here to talk about. Is uh this is decided was not aware of this? Just as like a little bit of trivia. Uh, William Howard Taft who was not only the President of the United States but also held the position of Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, and he's the only man ever to have headed up these two uh, two branches of US government. Only president to be stuck in a bathtub as well as true and just as a counterpoint, you know who else, Richard pryor H Well, we'll we'll pause here. Uh. Please keep writing to us with your inside experiences with uh, with the Freemasons. We would love to hear about your time in a Masonic order, whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. Most importantly, let us know if for some reason it needs to be anonymous. Let us know about pointer fitters, and uh, let let us know about what the miss what the like, what the red line misdemeanors are? You know? And uh, how late can our library books be? Etcetera. But if you want to learn a little bit more, do check out our past episodes. Check out our YouTube channel YouTube dot com slash Conspiracy Stuff, where we also explore things like Albert Pike and a couple of other things will be of interest to people who want to learn more about Masonic history. And shout out to in support Lodge, also Blue Lodge for life the Blue Lodge, because that just makes me think of Twin Peaks. And we are back to examine what is sometimes called a life stage an organization and sometimes called a branch of rather secretive. I'll just say it's Scientology. Okay, we've got this. We've got an email. I've got an email from Cliff Sea. I want to give this to everybody and then we'll we'll follow up on it. Okay, so Cliff, you said hello. Back in two thousand twelve, I went through a nark An addiction program in the mountains of southern California. Scientology uses these programs to recruit people at their lowest and most vulnerable points. The entire program is based on teachings by Hubbard, by which means l Ron Hubbard, the founder of first Dianetics, and then when he got sued, the founder of Scientology. This is a topic worth diving into, says Cliff. But as I don't know if you will read this, I'll just give you bullet points for now in a list these, and they're fairly brutal. One, they lock you in a cabin in the desert, telling you that you may leave, but they will follow you with water and only give it to you if you come back. They will not call your family or help during the first month. If you decide to wander off into the desert too, they say they have medical staff. This is staff they have trained and ordained as doctors and nurses. Next, they force you to sit silently staring into another person's eyes for five hours without movement, and then continue for five more hours with your eyes closed. If you flinch or start to doze off, you start again. If you question scientology, they move you to isolation until you promise to stop. They charge families tens of thousands of dollars, constantly asked for more money, and say that we don't actually do scientology here. They monitor your phone calls under threats, so you cannot say otherwise, and then Cliff concludes. As with most rehab programs, they want you to take responsibility for your actions, but they blatantly take advantage of this to make you feel like a You are low life, and they scientology are the only solution. Having said all this, says Cliff, it probably does help some people, but in my honest and clean for many years not thanks to them opinion. They scare people away from rehabilitation and make folks think it is a form of prison. I know this is something that maybe we have heard about before, but I don't know if we've talked about Narconon on the air with each other. Have we? We haven't have we I can't remember a time unless it was No. I don't think our drugs in the military would have covered it, or our hallucinogens in medical research. No. I think this might be the first. Yeah. So it's weird because both the Church of Scientology and Narconons say that it's a secular program. It's completely independent of the religious teachings of Scientology. But it seems like many people, many people are disillusioned with Narconon or have family members who have gone through that program. They they argue the opposite. They say it's a front group for Scientology with the ultimate name of recruiting people. What do you guys think about that? Well, is it actually in any way associated with Scientology? Yes, it is. Yeah, it is like officially as an Organizationally, it's parent company is something called the Association for Better Living and Education Way for Able and Able is owned and controlled by the Church of Scientology. So it's like a subsidiary of a subsidiary, which means they could argue, you know, of course that we exist independent of that. We just have our our roots there. Yeah, if you go to scientology dot org, they have a whole section on drug rehabilitation and prevention. And that's the thing that's that's what makes Scientology a bit you know, insidious, is they they they appeal to people at their lowest either professionally or they're trying to get a foothole. I moved to Hollywood and you know, they're trying to like become an actor or a screenwriter or whatever. And that's the story you always here. But this is even more predatory, whereas people that are truly at their lowest points and perhaps come from wealthy families or are able to pay the money that it tastes because rehab ain't cheap. UM. I always assumed Narconon was like Alanon, and then it was just another type of meeting that you go to UM. And then it was like a family situation that it wasn't like rehab exactly. But this is really news to me. Alanon um Alcoholics Anonymous rather, I'm sorry that's different too, But yeah, yeah, Alanon's separate from Alcoholics Anonymous, but I think it was UM. I don't think they're in co hoots or in uh conflict with one another. And I think Narconon So Alanon's founded in nineteen fifty one, right, Narconon was founded in nineteen sixties six, So without sounding conspiratorial, is it possible that Hubbard made a similar name, you know, on purpose as a marketing or brand recognition thing. And the more I've read about Narconon, the more I see problems with just their treatment. In an official for the Church of Scientology said that Narconon's rehabilitation programs are based entirely on the tenants and teachings of scientology. And you know what that means, no psychotherapists, psychologists. Yeah, that's something that I wish you would have gotten into with UM with Mike on that so we didn't really talk about the aversion to psychologists and and and psychiatry. And I could probably guess why it is because it gives you agency over people gas lighting you, and and the tools to cope with abusers. Yeah, that's just my two sets. Someone why that might be. Of course, there's there's there's a whole mythology wrapped up in it within the teachings of scientology. It's fascinating stuff. I had no idea about this connection though, Like with Narconon and scientology zero oh yeah, yeah. If you look at their website, I was just I went to narconon dot org and I was looking around trying to find something that says scientology on it on their main page. I did a quick little apple F for scientology and you know where I found it? Nowhere. It's not on there. It's not on that front page. It does not say scientology anywhere, at least in something that is searchable, And I can't find it anywhere in like an image or something, you know, maybe just be invented in an image. But if you go all the way to the bottom under our history, our technology, and you go to about Narconon, then you do a little apple F for scientology. There, you know what you find, zero identifiable mentions of scientology. But if you go all the way down again underneath there's a subheading under about Narconon Global Mission fifty years saving lives blah blah blah blah blah blah. Oh here it is l Ron Hubbard. Uh, there we go. There, we got them talk about talk about the stuff they don't want you to know, right'. I've wanted to do, you know, peep behind the curtain. I wanted to do for a number of years an episode on problems with rehabilitation programs throughout history and Arknon has been in my like on my radar for a while. But it's tricky because we want to make sure that we're not first off, we're not giving people medical advice or legal advice, and secondly that we're not like, I don't want us to do anything that would stop someone who needs help. I'm going to a rehabilitation center. You know, that's that's such an important thing. But also, you know the thing about Narconon, Like, here's one of the weirdest things about them in terms of their treatment. Have you guys heard of nias like nias and bombs. This is where some of that comes from. M Yeah, there would dose somebody with four thousand milligrams a day of niacin uh, and this is meant to This is like part of a vitamin mineral supplement regimen that is supposed to address pre existing nutritional deficiencies, uh and help help you offset nutrient loss through sweating. But the niacin thing goes back to Hubbard because he believed niason would increase. I think it's free fatty acid and um, like the mobilization of free fatty acid. And then it will help you get rid of toxins. So so they would, uh, they would dose you up with these massive amounts of nias and and niacin. Like any other particular substance, it's got a diminishing return, you know what I mean. If you have too much niacin, it can be dangerous for you. I've heard people talk about using niacin to like spoof a P test, you know, for drugs. Don't know, I don't know if that actually works or not, but it you know, in the same way that you're talking about the idea that it I think what it does is it like causes you to sweat like crazy and causes like the capillaries on your skin to sort of expand and you get really red. Um. That's my understanding. It's it's interesting, though I don't know if it actually works or not. Though it does flush you, it does give you a flush to your skin. It's also banned in Quebec and France because of this. You'll see one health agency in Cabec specifically that said they had to shut down an arcnon uh and Scientology based rehab center because four separate clients have been taken to the hospital due to the methods used there. Uh. This is stuff like having people with addictions go cold turkey off something you know, no methodone or step downs, etcetera. And then these long detox sessions in saunas that are meant to help you sweat out drugs, and then uh, you know, they pump you up with a ton of vitamins which may not always be healthy for you. It's also quite expensive, so there's a question about the profit motive. But yes, in response to Cliff's email here, Yeah, it very much seems that it very much seems that these two organizations, Narconon and the Church of Scienceology are related. The question is how independent are they? Uh And and Cliff, do you and other folks who have had experience with Narconon feel that their ultimate goal was to recruit you into scientology or to help you get clean. Can I read the official I found it. I found it on their website. Okay, so this is at Narconon, which is it's not spelled the way you may think it should be spelled. It is n A R C O N O N dot org. Just so everyone knows, slash drug dash rehab. Okay, this is where you're going, says since nineteen sixty six, superior results, long term effectiveness. The Narconon program is based on the discoveries and writings of L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology religion. However, Narconon is non religious, and a person does not become a scientologist by doing the program. Mr Hubbard was a humanitarian whose works include discoveries in the fields of education, mental health, and criminal reform, as well as drug rehabilitation. He began his research into drugs during the nineteen season seventies, when recreational drug use had reached epidemic proportions. He developed technologies to overcome the adverse effects of virtually every type of drug. Wanting to help those lost to addiction, Mr Hubbard made his discoveries broadly available, and the result was the establishment of Narconon. See they said it, they know what's up. The question is just how separate those organizations are, you know what I mean? Like, I can't be the only person who uh found out late night after after a series of poorly informed partying decisions that uh, Pizza Hutt and Taco Bell are run by the same organization, you know what I mean, they literally split the building in half. That blew my mind. And the song about it is quite good too. Uh So maybe maybe that's what That's one of the big questions, Like when someone is helping a loved when go into a program like Narconon, would they make the same decision if they were aware of its connections to the organization known as Scientology. I mean, that's not a ding on either of those organizations. That's just a question of why that message is not front and center on the website. Because Matt, Matt, You're you're really good. You you like have a nose for digging into stuff. We all do. So if it took you that long, I feel like it was. There are a lot of people who would miss it, you know what I mean? Oh yeah, yeah, it was not easy to find that fascinating and there we leave it. Thank you so much, Lana, thank you anonymous former mason, uh multiple anonymous former Mason's and and thank you Cliff for writing in. We can't wait to hear more from you all. I think that we have found we have found rich fodder for several full episodes in the future, assuming of course, that Big Mickey doesn't get us. That's always a possibility. Or you know, as as you said, fair Map, Big Rehab, we would love to hear from you, specifically you. We get a lot of We get a lot of folks who contact us and say, you know, I know you always say that you're talking to me, but I never had a reason to write them before. Uh. Yeah, I really have to have a reason, just you know, give us an idea to share, share your experiences. Uh. And for anyone who is struggling with substance of one or one sort or another. Uh, there are multiple resources available to help you. Narconon is not the only one in the game. Uh so, so do check it out, do reach out. You're not alone and you are worth the effort. Yes, and specifically you anonymous person who called and left a message about a curse and possibly something that occurred where there was a murder and a trial. You know who you are. I texted you and I called you. I just I need to get a little more information from you in order to actually talk about it on this show. So if you're out there, look at your text so there might be a weird one and respond to it police and if you'd like to respond to us. Of course, we try to be easy to find. You can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can find us on Instagram. We like to recommend Here's where it Gets Crazy, which has for the second time in a row, been confirmed to be the best page on the entirety of Facebook by us. Ye just on on this show. Yeah, that's great, Here's where it Gets Crazy. To go there now. But what if you hate social media? Can you go to YouTube? 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