From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel. Our compatriot Matt is on adventures but will return soon. They called me Ben. You're joined as always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. It's Thursday. If you're listening to this the day it comes out, which means, fellow conspiracy realists, you may very well make an appearance on today's show. And if you happen not to be on today's show, no worries will tell you how to get on air in the course of this show. So uh, stay tuned. We're about to hear from the best part of stuff they don't want you to know. As as we say always, you know, we spend some time scouring our phone messages of one A three, three, std W y t K. We also check in with our email conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Uh, and we have a couple of stories for you today, one of which is close to home for us and has been garnering a lot of speculation here in the Atlanta metropolitan area. This is a developing story. It is a disturbing one. It may not be appropriate for all audience members, So if you have some kids, UH, if you yourself are sensitive to graphic depictions of violence, you may want to fast forward about fifteen or twenty minutes. But we do believe this is important information and after that will be traveling back to the Middle East and to the to the danger to journalists and activists around the world because we had a follow up to a recent strange news piece. Uh, this is an important segment this week, so we do hope you tune in well. Without further ado, Noel, let's say we begin close to home in more ways than one, a little too close to him, if you ask me. I actually found out about this one through my mom. She sent me a text. And I don't know how how your folks text, but my mom tends to text and big run on blocks where it's sort of hard to separate the different thoughts from that to the flame text because I freak out. I've got some friends who could have just sent one text as a block, but send like ten one sentence. Oh that's me, Ben, that's me. Are you sub tweeting me for my text? You're not who I was thinking. Okay, Well, I do do that, and I tend to find that helpful because then I can separate the But it is a little stressful when you're seeing them. And if you have, God forbid, you have a sound who what monster has this anyway the sound effect or not where it's just like believing, believe, belie. That seems oppressive, But I do it out of courtesy for readability. But my mom doesn't do it. It doesn't punctuate either, so I think that's part of the problem. So literally is just this giant block of text that I look at and I'm like, I don't know. I can't make heads or taible this, but this one did. For this kind of news I get, I get breaking news updates as they happen, which is I think necessary to stay informed. But also it's lucky that I have a pretty inhuman sleep schedule as per usual, you know, because when this news broke, it was rightly terrifying for a lot of people. Well, you just out of as an example in that a little levity. Um, he goes, this is how this text came through from my mom, And then we'll talk about the listener who wrote in she just goes, have you heard about the murders in Piedmont Park just across the street from Preston's house. Lady and her dog were stabbed to death. She was a bartender and was walking her dog after work. Betsy wasn't kidding. The box of stuff was at least ten pounds. If school is open, I bet the kids will have to wear masks, so okay. Anyway, she definitely lead with the right story. Uh. And I had not heard about this, and that is exactly what this is about. And this story did come to us from from my mom initially, but also from m a listener who goes, hey, guys, I'm sure you're well aware, but there appears to be a serial killer in Atlanta. As I was reading this, I obviously couldn't help thinking of Wayne Williams and the Atlantic child murders. Uh. And hearing the topic of your podcast today felt eerie. M is referring to a previous Strange News episode. A recent Strange News episode where Matt brought in the story about new DNA evidence in the William Wayne Williams case, the Atlanta child murders case, and then she sent a link to a local TV station, w rdw's story on the case. Piedmont Park is a big green space here in Atlanta. Um, and it's true a young woman was killed by stabbing when she was out walking her dog. And I don't know, ben am I'm incorrect in thinking that's kind of considered to be a relatively safe part of town. Uh. It goes back and forth with syclable crime, but in general, Uh, Piedmont Park has hours of operations, so you're not really supposed to be there after dark. I like many people have uh taken advantage of the somewhat lackadaisical security to hang out there at night. But there's a reason that these parks have specific hours. You know, you would depending on where you live, followed conspiracy realist, Your neighborhood parks may have sun sun up to sundown rules, which are basically they're not you know, nine to five hard hours. They're just if the sun is up, the park's open. If the sun's down, it's closed. Uh. This this game is a shock to a lot of people. However, because as you said, Noel, Piedmont Park is known as a big central gathering space. You know, it's home to a lot of big concerts. Uh. There are a lot of people who uh celebrate milestone events there. It's the picnic spot for a lot of folks. Um to inject some levity. Though, when you do go to Atlanta, if you're looking to have a picnic without a huge crowd, try the Jimmy Carter Center. They have a hidden garden in the back and it's free to go. They also have a quoi pod. This is the stuff you know if you're a local. But to your point, not to derail us, to your point, yeah, Piedmont Park is huge. A lot of people use it and it was it's generally been considered a safer area. Yeah. And I mean not to be too like inside baseball or regional, but it is just interesting the way information is. The story to me is more about information and disinformation spreading because you know, when this story first came out there there's some details around it that are quite chilling. Again around one am Uh. The woman in question, Katherine Janie, who was forty years old. Her body was found um slain multiple stab wounds along with her dog. Why are you gonna kill the dog? That's just cruel um. And there is a ten thousand dollar reward which seems kind of low that investigators are offering for identifying the suspect. Uh. And we said, sereal, and we're gonna get into this. But there there was a second one as well. Woman was found shot to death at Yellow River Park in Winnette County. And there are some similarities kind of but not really And it was really just the I'm not not laughing that this is obviously tragic, both of these murders. But the only thing that's leading anybody to say this is a quote unquote serial killer. First of all, if I'm mistaken in two deaths, do not a serial killer? Make right? I think it requires at least three. If not, you're you're correct. And the original post purporting or proposing the idea of a serial killer cited a third homicide in Norcross, which is north of the Atlanta area. Law enforcement. Law enforcement debunked that third right And and uh, as far as I can tell, some of the initial like um, a lot of this stuff was spread through viral, you know Instagram stories and and and reposts and things like that. Twitter user by the name of baby face Killer posted a screenshot saying, apparently there's a serial killer on the loose in Atlanta. This is so scary. And then um like an exclamation mark in a triangle, like a warning sign. This is very serious. You've all heard about the Piedmont Park murder, surely, but now i FBI is stepping in the case, pointing to the possibility of a cereal being on the loose and a t L and surrounding areas crime and a t L is not in common, but these are. She was killed when the killer stayed for a while, mutilating the body in very twisted ways. Trigger warning, and this is definitely a trigger warning. And then this this post goes on to describe some very specific grizzly mutilations that supposedly were done to to this corpse, uh, including things like slicing off body parts and eyelids and and all of that, and then refers to another body that was found in Stone Mountain, which is a bedroom community of Atlanta. Goes on to say the reason the only way of identifying the body of the Piedmont where some tattoos is because of the gruesome sick way she was mutilated. Reports of another female body are coming in this morning from Norcross and that's the one you talked about. So we know about multiple stab wounds, you know, in the Piedmont Park incidents, but none of the mutilations that are being described have been confirmed by police. Ben, what else have you read and what if anything are connecting these three cases? And is it really just internet hearsay and people trying to spread thing, because then there there are some other tweets to that are that are saying similar things. Again, yes, uh I mentioned on this week's Strange News segment. Part of the issue goes to very well intentioned tendencies towards pattern recognition, which after after a certain threshold, become pattern creation. Obviously, people are frightened. Uh. Piedmont Park has had its share of crime over the years, but I believe according to official sources, this is the first homicide in the park in more than a decade. The story itself grabbed a lot of people's attention because this is uh, this is a part of the this is a part of the city that is considered walkable, you know, people pay a premium to live there, and walking your dog in a park is something that anybody should be able to do safely. The idea of mutilation, I haven't been able to confirm yet, but the police did describe the scene of the crime as gruesome. They did confirm it was a matter of multiple stab wounds at least in the case of Katherine Janis. Also also, unfortunately, cameras in the area, including cameras at the entrance of Piedmont Park, where apparently not working at the time, which adds you know, further uh, further speculation here, and people are looking for answers at this point. We have to admit that multiple homicides per year do a cur in Atlanta as well as in many other major metropolitan areas in the United States. The family, the survivors of Janis and Lane Tory Lang being the person who, as you said, was also murdered in Stone Mountain, they find these rumors disheartening, if you know, if well intentioned. But what we also see here is the there's a part of that post that really appreciate your reading. Regarding the FBI's involvement. At this point, it looks like it looks like local police in Guadette County and in Fulton are saying there's no connection between the murders, and it looks like they're also um they're also stating that there is no compelling evidence of a serial killer operating at this time. But but this gets back into the idea of true crime and how important it is for us to have as many facts at hand as possible before making statements like this, because serial killers are a relatively rare phenomena. Despite what Hollywood would have us believe, and whether or not there was a single assailant involved here, the fact of the matter is that these women are dead and there's needs to be a move to bring these folks to justice. So while it may it may make people more likely to pay attention to a story if they believe there's a serial killer of foot, the the hard fact of the matter is that someone, multiple people, probably committed murder. They got away, and we don't know when or how they will be apprehended. And there's a good argument to be made. I would say all that anything that brings more awareness to this is helpful. More people are alert, more people are thinking twice about their personal safety. But Also, I don't know, man, I'm I'm I'm concerned about this because I wonder do you feel like this moves into the realm of exploitation or is this just simply people reposting news with the best of intentions. Whoever is talking about these specific injuries that appear to have been just pulled from like in the imagination of someone who's maybe watched one too many SAW movies. Uh, that to me is exploitative. Is a way of getting off by watching people freak out, you know, of of rumormongering and feeling like it's some kind of like, you know, power move or something. You know, unless unless there's something that they don't want us to know at the at the a p D. And Okay, the FBI is involved, but that can mean a lot of things. Um. I will say that is a little bit suspicious because typically we've got the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and if it wasn't something more serious, the g b I would probably be handling it. Um. But again, if unless there really is someone covering up any details like about these these mutilations, it surely does feel like that's someone that just kind of getting a sick thrill out of freaking people out, but who knows, you know, I mean it's very similar to posts. Uh. Look, I don't want to diminish anybody trying to do good by spreading information that they think to be true. But you know, there was a big rash of all these stories going around about people overdosing on drugs that were laced with you know, in contaminants like fentanel and things like that, And I know that there's probably some truth to that and it probably happened, But then you start seeing them pop up in other cities, and it feels very much like a copy pasta kind of situation where someone sees it and then they start reposting and reposting it. And while there might be some layer of truth to it, is it the epidemic that people are making it out to be um and and and what's the reasoning behind it? And I'm not saying those things are directly connected, but I just think it's an It's just an example. When you see something, you want to be the one to share them the news. You want to be the one to to give people the scoop and and and help people like look out for themselves or their friends, so you don't really think twice, because if something's grizzly enough or scary enough, you're probably gonna post it without fact checking it. A lot of the time, I've certainly been guilty of it, and I've had to double back and make sure that I don't do that without, you know, kind of knowing what I'm talking about a little bit more. I don't know, Ben, what do you think? I do have some thoughts here, Nolan, I suggest we pause for a moment for a word from our sponsors and return to to dive in just a bit further and we are back. I do an issue of quick correction. I had misspoken, said Stone Mountain. This was Yellow River Park in the case of eighteen year old Tory Land. I completely agree with you know. There is something to the human personality exacerbated by social media, and it is this. Human beings want to be Promethean. They want to breathe the bringers of light and knowledge, even if it's even if it's them, you know, reposting something. That's why people steal ideas and purport that those ideas are their own all the time, whether it's a meme, whether it's an aphorism, whether it's an invention, whether it's a song, et cetera. People want to be the person who brings knowledge, and some people are opposed to even admitting that they're learning something. This is um an abstract problem with human hardware, but we see it writ large again, probably with the best of intentions by people on social media. In this case, people are trying to warn their friends. Nobody wants to lose a stranger. Nobody even wants to lose people they dislike to something as horrific as homicide. But you have to think of the survivors in the family here, because sure, local law enforcement is saying that there's rampant misinformation about these tragedies right now, and they have they have denied that there is any evidence of a serial murderer. Uh. And the FBI is involved, as you said. Uh. But on the other side, we have when we look at the human side of people who have lost you know, their life partner, people who have lost their daughter or their relative or their close friend. They're on the other side of this saying things like this guy had something I thought insightful and important to say during the vigil for Janice UH that occurred this past Sunday night. He says, quote, she was a wonderful spirit, and I don't want that to be stained with things that you're hearing now. I want you to focus on the joy and love of Katie so you can imagine how how dramatic it can be, you know, to have lost someone in such a heartbreaking way and then to hop on your phone or your social media of choice and find lurid unverified reports. Right that that sounds like well, frankly, that could that could be interpreted as pitches for some episode and true crime series. There's something almost humanizing about that. And again, you know, we have to be careful here because people are overwhelmingly coming from very good intentions, from a very good place. They just don't want more people to die, which is totally understandable. And if you if you want to help someone in this situation, specifically, if you want to help Katie Janice Tory Lane, you can look into the resources that the relatives and local law enforcement have made available. Like as we record today, there's a ten thousand dollar reward being offered to anyone with information on Janice's murder. You can call a p D homicide at four oh four or five or sixty two thirty five where you can call crime stoppers and four oh four or five seven seven t I p s. There's also a go fund me page. You saw that as well, Yes, I didn't, Ben, I have a one last question for me anyway. Um, isn't it a little suss that FBI is involved though for just a stabbing? I mean, I know stabbing is certainly grizzly and and uh creates a lot of outcry and people's imaginations tend to run wild, especially you know, with the dog being killed as well, that certainly seems like kind of fetishistic murder, you know, um, much much more so than a crime of opportunity maybe. But why do you think the FBI is involved for this one case if they're saying there's not a pattern, which is certainly doesn't seem like there as I mean, the other park was like almost half an hour away, like at least twenty miles away, uh, and was a shooting, not a stabbing. So I know we were probably just conjecturing at this point, but do you have any thoughts as to why in an isolated case like this, just because it's a stabbing doesn't seem like reason to bring in the FBI unless there's something else going on. Yeah, it's a good question, and I would be misleading if I said I had anything more than speculation regarding FBI involvement here. But we can confirm again the FBI is looking into it if we can, if we can find the internal reasoning, or if any of our fellow conspiracy realists can provide us with that reasoning, then we'll be We'll be glad to learn more. But at this point I'm not I'm not specifically able to disclose or conjecture as to why the FBI is specifically involved. Okay, well, I think we'll probably be keeping an eye on this certainly, and maybe there will be more information that comes out. But as of now, I think we can say, based on the information that we have that this is likely not a serial killer um and we have nothing backing up any of these more intensely over the top, you know, grizzly aspects of the crime. Agreed, and we will update if more information comes to light. Our next piece of correspondence today comes from Nadia Commanency. Nadia Commanency, who says this is a fake alias for the Olympics, but writes to us with a tremendously insightful follow up to our earlier strange news story on n s O and the now infamous pegas is malware, spyware, whenever you want to call it, the software that is helping state level regimes murder innocent people. Hi, says Nadia, comminency, please not use my name. I want to explain a little bit more about pacases and companies similar to in ESSO. I'm trying to write this so that it is informative, but everyone is protected. That's what caught my eye here, Uh, Nadia, and no, I do want to note that this is a there's a pretty lengthy letters, so we're gonna paraphrase a little and we're going to use some excerpts, but we're going to make sure you get the soul of what's being said here. They continue saying there is private technology for hire for whoever can pay the bill. In ESSO is just one company, and the company with the worst reputation for having no scruples in business their private sector companies. But honestly, I find that questionable because they are outrageously capable. They can supply any intel for example real time satellite feeds, where the information obtained from real time satellite fees. This information can be used to identify when and where illegal fishing or legal waste dumping is happening. For example, whenever someone here's a tool is used by law enforcement, they expect the CIA and secret hits an espionage. This is not always the case, and there's a lot of protection of the environment that comes about from the use of companies similar to n s O, but not in The number one piece of evidence in a crime is the data mind from cell phones. All the contacts, any details of meetings, photo evidence of the crime, etcetera. Is on the phone. If all the criminal contacts can be linked to the organization of a crime, then you can take down the entire criminal organization. The phone information is so valuable. My dream is for an agency to bring reco charges against some of the criminals. It is still up to the investigative agency to prove a crime was committed, so spyware is really just a tool. A federal judge can give permission for wire taps and access to bank records. UH. These things combined as well as eyewitness testimon money, will make a case water tight. I guess I'm trying to say that there are people doing a lot of good with the same technology, and it is not that easy to get in on someone's phone, so it is not on my phone and your phone and his phone. Yeah, makes I mean, that makes sense, and I think that's a very valid point. Uh, this goes on Nadia Koma. Nancy says, finally, it's important that these surveillance companies have scruples ding ding ding we put the ding ding ding in there. Uh, say, I am a Russian mobster parentheses. A lot of Russians and ex Russian mobsters like using and doing this technology in parentheses, And my employee at my corrupt firm ran off with five hundred thousand dollars in bitcoin, and I want to find him. I can hire one of these companies to find them, so they can negotiate my money back for a finder's fee. Now, if there is honor among thieves and this mobster legit just once his money back, then an honorable company might help him. But say they want to kill him and get their money back, that's not something that honorable company would help with. And maybe they would not even help with rush them upster in the first place. These spy companies have all the info with their fingertips, they know or can find out who they're working for. They can decide who to help and who not to help, and they can also filter information they give back. The client cannot listen or go through a vegas Ist phone that's vegas is apostrophe d. When they hire someone to spy for them, the spying agency goes through the intel and decides what's relevant and what's not, what to tell the client, what's not divulge. If there is no evidence of a crime, there's no info to offer. Case closed, so they act as a middleman. These private companies act as certified informants on international cases. Fascinating. There's always a double edged sword with this kind of stuff. I mean, if people can use it for evil, then people can use it for good and vice versa. I mean, you can always flip the script and take something that's we see it all the time with this type of technology. And of course this is the kind of like or valence stuff that you could use against bad guys, you know, like that's much more helpful and efficient than say, wire taps and all the guidelines surrounding wire taps and how long you can listen and all of that stuff, you know, I mean, it's just not to be a broken record. But you know, in The Sopranos, Tony Soprano buys his son a SUV in one episode and he's like, I pulled all that GPS out of there. But this is you know, The Sopranos was in the days before cell phones, before like smartphones. If you look at the phones everyone has in that show, they're all like, you know, those little sprint type flip phones. So it wasn't even something that people considered. And you've gotta wonder if people in organized crime, and I know they're probably using smartphones for personal stuff, but I bet they still use burner phones for actual illegal operations, or they have some kind of special encryption on their devices. Not to sound too old school, but but there's something to be said for technology that would be considered archaic. It's a little bit easier to to make sure that the people you're reaching are the people you want to reach, and that no one's listening on the on the line, you know, Like I'm not saying all paper ciphers and dead drops, but don't be surprised that people still use some of those because they work. What I think Nadia is saying here is that we have to be careful not to lump all these private sector intel companies into one bucket. Uh. Nadia, I do appreciate that you agreed with us from from a position of expertise and credibility that an s O does have one of the worst reputations here UH. And in in return and reciprocity, I agree that these agencies are not all necessarily doing nefarious things. But in s O clearly, as we said in our previous segment, in s O clearly is claiming that they are not aware slash not responsible for uh, for the stalking of like Kashaki's family, for the deaths that have been traced to agencies using vegas is in Mexico and in other places around the world. And we aimed to be very very fair, fair to the best of our ability with the information we had when we presented an s O company's statements, UH, and when we presented the accusations of these journalists. But let's pause for word from our sponsor, and then let's let's dive into this a little bit more. While we're on break. Everybody check your phone, ask yourself what's on it? Just candy crush um, Let's see coop group on got dr Mario World. That's a fun one in some games when kids play, I got spotify them. Here ways a bunch of pictures that will probably never look at a lot. I don't know, hopefully not Pegasus though, But how how do you how does it get on there? Ben? I know it has to do with like you can get a FaceTime call that you don't even have to answer and it can infect you that way. There there was some really creepy do you think of we've always thought of Well, first off, we've always thought of max as being impervious to viruses. Viruses are only for PCs, we said, and that, of course isn't true anymore. For the longest time that we seem like to be blissfully you know, impervious to viruses where cell phones are concerned. But this is that's why I think this is such an interesting development. But it's also something that's been around for a lot longer than we realized. Right, Yeah, No, I think that's a really that's a really good point because originally vegas is would say end a malware link and you had to click on that link at least and then you would be you would get popped. But now, like you said, it can install itself with simply a missed call on what's app. I believe is the platform that's You're You're perfect. I'm sure. I'm sure there's work going on to make it even more easily transmissible. Right now, the only way to get rid of pagas is completely is to discard the phone like you have. You cannot really wipe it. You have to discard the phone. And then secondly, because this is if you look at objective, this is brilliant design. But secondly, to Nadia commanencis point, these companies do have the ability to act as a middleman to filter information. And if they have the ability to filter information, then does that not logically mean they are seeing the information. Does that not logically mean they are able to draw some conclusions about how this information is going to be used? Like you see a journalist family members show it up right and and their intel is going through vegases right, and then later that journalist is dismembered, is vivisected? Then is it like is it unfair to say that they probably could have figured out what the software was being used for. I just I don't know. I don't have all the facts, but it seems like it doesn't seem like an argument in good faith. Does that make sense my being too hard on them? No, I don't think so at all. I don't think you're being too hard on them at all. Um. But let's le's let's flip back to the you know, the positive uses for this. Like, I mean, we know, probably largely from fiction and true crime stuff, that career criminals, professional criminals are very paranoid about this kind of stuff, and I think that kind of paranoia is starting to filter into just you know, regular civilians, just because of all of the surveillance state type stuff that we're you know, reading about and seeing firsthand. But um, do you think it would take more to infect a criminal someone you were actually trying to surveil? Um, you know, for recod type cases, would it take more of a clever back door than say, just like a fishing scam or or even like a WhatsApp call that maybe someone wasn't expecting. I would think, you know, you see CEC mobsters throwing cell phones out the window all the time. I mean, I'm just wondering, like to get this done and to do it effectively, would there need to be even further more clever ways of infecting someone's phone with this? Yeah, that's the race. That's a good question as well because right now this hit the mainstream recently, but in the industry, pakeances is old beans. People know about it. What'sapp, Microsoft, Google, all the other kids, all the all the all the hits. Uh, the continually patching security loopholes that allowed pagases to function. But that doesn't mean the researchers on the vegas IS and s O side stopped doing that research. There are new variants of vegases that will probably come out with different or more sophisticated exploits. There are a couple of ways to think about think about your question. You're with organized crime. First, it's it would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous. But I think the average person would be surprised by how many high level criminal and like legal state level operations do dummy things, knucklehead things like have the administrator password for their system be you know admin or admin one two three? Uh, this this seems like a huge misstep, but it's not an uncommon one even today. A Uh. Secondly, it's tough because the more people you have in any operation, the more opportunities for exploits naturally come to exist. And all it takes is just one person who's a little bit sloppy and that can that can reco everyone, you know what I mean. So it's it's no surprise that some criminal organizations have very specific, pretty extreme rules about how they use telecommunication devices. You know, these devices are a necessity now for a lot of people, especially if you're looking at international crime. But one of the best, uh one, one of the best things that people have on their side when it comes to something like vegas Is is that vegas Is is not really something the average person could buy, you know, to star their X or something like that. It costs like millions of dollars to to use. You have to have some sophisticated handling. This is the opposite of plug and play. It's not like clear View AI or whatever this software. The journalists involved are saying that it is being used to target high value, high value folks who the most of the world would not think of as criminals. Like lawyers, journalists, politicians, um, people who might have access to top secret information via their device, you know, and like it's like you and I and our ride or die mat. A number of years ago, we were stranded in the Atlanta airport and we made for whatever, like eighteen hours or something. No, for a while, it seemed like an attorney GoF, you're talking about our friend we made. Yeah, yeah, and you know I was. I was going back and forth on whether he says his name on air, but he's we converted. He's a good fan of the show, friend of the show now and aside from being a magnificent guy. And dude, if you're listening, I hope it worked out with the girl. Thank you for taking take you for listening to our weird, weirdly specific advice. Um. But he had something interesting, like in his line of work, he had some pretty tight op sack on his work computer and he wasn't doing any spy stuff, you know, he was just working with financials and it was great to have him walk us through it, uh because you know, obviously were we are not gonna try to take advantage of anybody. But also I don't know if you remember this there was that moment where I just had to very politely say to him, you know, hey, man, this is fascinating because we're all nerds and we love seeing all this stuff works. But I don't know if you should be telling some dudes you just met at the airport, which he found hilarious. Well, I remember too, was the first time I've ever seen something that's now pretty commonplace, at least, you know, in terms of like three factor authentic authentication. But he had a thumb drive that had like a constantly changing key. It constantly updated like out of timer, like I think every like ten minutes or something like that. It changed, and he had to you know, put in a new key that was actually physically displayed somewhere or like on an app. I don't remember exactly how it works, but it's like, you know, they're all these authenticator programs now that you know, the keys literally are always on a cycle and changing, and you have to entern the new one and if you miss it by a couple of seconds and it won't work. So it just you know, proves that you have access to the device. So probably that kind of uh, multi factor authentication or encryption will maybe be more of a thing, uh, and get more robust, you know, and as that evolves, we will see attempts to break that security layer evolved in step. It's a continuing kind of Uh. Let's see. This might be too old school for some people, but if you remember the Mad magazine comics a spy versus spy, that's essentially That's essentially what's happening. But I really appreciated your point there, n Idea, like not all of these things are inherently bad. Indeed, all technology is like fire the way I said earlier, It can warm you and save your life, or it can burn you and your house. Doubt technology has ever been a double edged sword. And whether you're dealing with your smartphone at home, or whether you're dealing with weird email on your laptop, whether even your cars GPS is doing something weird, it's important to keep that in mind. Technology is only as ethical as the people who wield it. And with that, I think we can leave it there. We hope you enjoyed this week's listener mail. Thank you so much to m thank you so much to Nadia, and we cannot wait to hear from you. If you want to take a age out of their book and contact us. We have so many ways to do it. We try to be easy to find online. Please don't give us vegases, Please don't uh. Please direct your non uh Pegasus tainted admissives to us via our social media channels. The usual ones we've got Instagram or or Conspiracy Stuff show during a different order today. And then we've got Conspiracy Stuff, which is our handle on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, where you can find daily video clips of little you know, key moments from every podcast that we do every single day of the week. And if that doesn't quite bag your badgers, if you feel like going a bit more old school, we have your back as well. You can call us directly on your telephonic device, yes, even if it's a rotary phone. Our number is one eight three three. Say it with me st d w y t K. You'll hear a message that let you know you're in the right place, and then you'll have three minutes. Those three minutes belong to you. We ask only that you let us know if it's okay to use your name and or voice on air. Give yourself a sick nickname, a moniker and a k A. We love that sort of thing, tell us what's on your mind. Most importantly, if you have something you'd like to tell us that doesn't fit into three minutes, please do not censor yourself. 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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel. Our compatriot Matt is on adventures but will return soon. They called me Ben. You're joined as always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. It's Thursday. If you're listening to this the day it comes out, which means, fellow conspiracy realists, you may very well make an appearance on today's show. And if you happen not to be on today's show, no worries will tell you how to get on air in the course of this show. So uh, stay tuned. We're about to hear from the best part of stuff they don't want you to know. As as we say always, you know, we spend some time scouring our phone messages of one A three, three, std W y t K. We also check in with our email conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Uh, and we have a couple of stories for you today, one of which is close to home for us and has been garnering a lot of speculation here in the Atlanta metropolitan area. This is a developing story. It is a disturbing one. It may not be appropriate for all audience members, So if you have some kids, UH, if you yourself are sensitive to graphic depictions of violence, you may want to fast forward about fifteen or twenty minutes. But we do believe this is important information and after that will be traveling back to the Middle East and to the to the danger to journalists and activists around the world because we had a follow up to a recent strange news piece. Uh, this is an important segment this week, so we do hope you tune in well. Without further ado, Noel, let's say we begin close to home in more ways than one, a little too close to him, if you ask me. I actually found out about this one through my mom. She sent me a text. And I don't know how how your folks text, but my mom tends to text and big run on blocks where it's sort of hard to separate the different thoughts from that to the flame text because I freak out. I've got some friends who could have just sent one text as a block, but send like ten one sentence. Oh that's me, Ben, that's me. Are you sub tweeting me for my text? You're not who I was thinking. Okay, Well, I do do that, and I tend to find that helpful because then I can separate the But it is a little stressful when you're seeing them. And if you have, God forbid, you have a sound who what monster has this anyway the sound effect or not where it's just like believing, believe, belie. That seems oppressive, But I do it out of courtesy for readability. But my mom doesn't do it. It doesn't punctuate either, so I think that's part of the problem. So literally is just this giant block of text that I look at and I'm like, I don't know. I can't make heads or taible this, but this one did. For this kind of news I get, I get breaking news updates as they happen, which is I think necessary to stay informed. But also it's lucky that I have a pretty inhuman sleep schedule as per usual, you know, because when this news broke, it was rightly terrifying for a lot of people. Well, you just out of as an example in that a little levity. Um, he goes, this is how this text came through from my mom, And then we'll talk about the listener who wrote in she just goes, have you heard about the murders in Piedmont Park just across the street from Preston's house. Lady and her dog were stabbed to death. She was a bartender and was walking her dog after work. Betsy wasn't kidding. The box of stuff was at least ten pounds. If school is open, I bet the kids will have to wear masks, so okay. Anyway, she definitely lead with the right story. Uh. And I had not heard about this, and that is exactly what this is about. And this story did come to us from from my mom initially, but also from m a listener who goes, hey, guys, I'm sure you're well aware, but there appears to be a serial killer in Atlanta. As I was reading this, I obviously couldn't help thinking of Wayne Williams and the Atlantic child murders. Uh. And hearing the topic of your podcast today felt eerie. M is referring to a previous Strange News episode. A recent Strange News episode where Matt brought in the story about new DNA evidence in the William Wayne Williams case, the Atlanta child murders case, and then she sent a link to a local TV station, w rdw's story on the case. Piedmont Park is a big green space here in Atlanta. Um, and it's true a young woman was killed by stabbing when she was out walking her dog. And I don't know, ben am I'm incorrect in thinking that's kind of considered to be a relatively safe part of town. Uh. It goes back and forth with syclable crime, but in general, Uh, Piedmont Park has hours of operations, so you're not really supposed to be there after dark. I like many people have uh taken advantage of the somewhat lackadaisical security to hang out there at night. But there's a reason that these parks have specific hours. You know, you would depending on where you live, followed conspiracy realist, Your neighborhood parks may have sun sun up to sundown rules, which are basically they're not you know, nine to five hard hours. They're just if the sun is up, the park's open. If the sun's down, it's closed. Uh. This this game is a shock to a lot of people. However, because as you said, Noel, Piedmont Park is known as a big central gathering space. You know, it's home to a lot of big concerts. Uh. There are a lot of people who uh celebrate milestone events there. It's the picnic spot for a lot of folks. Um to inject some levity. Though, when you do go to Atlanta, if you're looking to have a picnic without a huge crowd, try the Jimmy Carter Center. They have a hidden garden in the back and it's free to go. They also have a quoi pod. This is the stuff you know if you're a local. But to your point, not to derail us, to your point, yeah, Piedmont Park is huge. A lot of people use it and it was it's generally been considered a safer area. Yeah. And I mean not to be too like inside baseball or regional, but it is just interesting the way information is. The story to me is more about information and disinformation spreading because you know, when this story first came out there there's some details around it that are quite chilling. Again around one am Uh. The woman in question, Katherine Janie, who was forty years old. Her body was found um slain multiple stab wounds along with her dog. Why are you gonna kill the dog? That's just cruel um. And there is a ten thousand dollar reward which seems kind of low that investigators are offering for identifying the suspect. Uh. And we said, sereal, and we're gonna get into this. But there there was a second one as well. Woman was found shot to death at Yellow River Park in Winnette County. And there are some similarities kind of but not really And it was really just the I'm not not laughing that this is obviously tragic, both of these murders. But the only thing that's leading anybody to say this is a quote unquote serial killer. First of all, if I'm mistaken in two deaths, do not a serial killer? Make right? I think it requires at least three. If not, you're you're correct. And the original post purporting or proposing the idea of a serial killer cited a third homicide in Norcross, which is north of the Atlanta area. Law enforcement. Law enforcement debunked that third right And and uh, as far as I can tell, some of the initial like um, a lot of this stuff was spread through viral, you know Instagram stories and and and reposts and things like that. Twitter user by the name of baby face Killer posted a screenshot saying, apparently there's a serial killer on the loose in Atlanta. This is so scary. And then um like an exclamation mark in a triangle, like a warning sign. This is very serious. You've all heard about the Piedmont Park murder, surely, but now i FBI is stepping in the case, pointing to the possibility of a cereal being on the loose and a t L and surrounding areas crime and a t L is not in common, but these are. She was killed when the killer stayed for a while, mutilating the body in very twisted ways. Trigger warning, and this is definitely a trigger warning. And then this this post goes on to describe some very specific grizzly mutilations that supposedly were done to to this corpse, uh, including things like slicing off body parts and eyelids and and all of that, and then refers to another body that was found in Stone Mountain, which is a bedroom community of Atlanta. Goes on to say the reason the only way of identifying the body of the Piedmont where some tattoos is because of the gruesome sick way she was mutilated. Reports of another female body are coming in this morning from Norcross and that's the one you talked about. So we know about multiple stab wounds, you know, in the Piedmont Park incidents, but none of the mutilations that are being described have been confirmed by police. Ben, what else have you read and what if anything are connecting these three cases? And is it really just internet hearsay and people trying to spread thing, because then there there are some other tweets to that are that are saying similar things. Again, yes, uh I mentioned on this week's Strange News segment. Part of the issue goes to very well intentioned tendencies towards pattern recognition, which after after a certain threshold, become pattern creation. Obviously, people are frightened. Uh. Piedmont Park has had its share of crime over the years, but I believe according to official sources, this is the first homicide in the park in more than a decade. The story itself grabbed a lot of people's attention because this is uh, this is a part of the this is a part of the city that is considered walkable, you know, people pay a premium to live there, and walking your dog in a park is something that anybody should be able to do safely. The idea of mutilation, I haven't been able to confirm yet, but the police did describe the scene of the crime as gruesome. They did confirm it was a matter of multiple stab wounds at least in the case of Katherine Janis. Also also, unfortunately, cameras in the area, including cameras at the entrance of Piedmont Park, where apparently not working at the time, which adds you know, further uh, further speculation here, and people are looking for answers at this point. We have to admit that multiple homicides per year do a cur in Atlanta as well as in many other major metropolitan areas in the United States. The family, the survivors of Janis and Lane Tory Lang being the person who, as you said, was also murdered in Stone Mountain, they find these rumors disheartening, if you know, if well intentioned. But what we also see here is the there's a part of that post that really appreciate your reading. Regarding the FBI's involvement. At this point, it looks like it looks like local police in Guadette County and in Fulton are saying there's no connection between the murders, and it looks like they're also um they're also stating that there is no compelling evidence of a serial killer operating at this time. But but this gets back into the idea of true crime and how important it is for us to have as many facts at hand as possible before making statements like this, because serial killers are a relatively rare phenomena. Despite what Hollywood would have us believe, and whether or not there was a single assailant involved here, the fact of the matter is that these women are dead and there's needs to be a move to bring these folks to justice. So while it may it may make people more likely to pay attention to a story if they believe there's a serial killer of foot, the the hard fact of the matter is that someone, multiple people, probably committed murder. They got away, and we don't know when or how they will be apprehended. And there's a good argument to be made. I would say all that anything that brings more awareness to this is helpful. More people are alert, more people are thinking twice about their personal safety. But Also, I don't know, man, I'm I'm I'm concerned about this because I wonder do you feel like this moves into the realm of exploitation or is this just simply people reposting news with the best of intentions. Whoever is talking about these specific injuries that appear to have been just pulled from like in the imagination of someone who's maybe watched one too many SAW movies. Uh, that to me is exploitative. Is a way of getting off by watching people freak out, you know, of of rumormongering and feeling like it's some kind of like, you know, power move or something. You know, unless unless there's something that they don't want us to know at the at the a p D. And Okay, the FBI is involved, but that can mean a lot of things. Um. I will say that is a little bit suspicious because typically we've got the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and if it wasn't something more serious, the g b I would probably be handling it. Um. But again, if unless there really is someone covering up any details like about these these mutilations, it surely does feel like that's someone that just kind of getting a sick thrill out of freaking people out, but who knows, you know, I mean it's very similar to posts. Uh. Look, I don't want to diminish anybody trying to do good by spreading information that they think to be true. But you know, there was a big rash of all these stories going around about people overdosing on drugs that were laced with you know, in contaminants like fentanel and things like that, And I know that there's probably some truth to that and it probably happened, But then you start seeing them pop up in other cities, and it feels very much like a copy pasta kind of situation where someone sees it and then they start reposting and reposting it. And while there might be some layer of truth to it, is it the epidemic that people are making it out to be um and and and what's the reasoning behind it? And I'm not saying those things are directly connected, but I just think it's an It's just an example. When you see something, you want to be the one to share them the news. You want to be the one to to give people the scoop and and and help people like look out for themselves or their friends, so you don't really think twice, because if something's grizzly enough or scary enough, you're probably gonna post it without fact checking it. A lot of the time, I've certainly been guilty of it, and I've had to double back and make sure that I don't do that without, you know, kind of knowing what I'm talking about a little bit more. I don't know, Ben, what do you think? I do have some thoughts here, Nolan, I suggest we pause for a moment for a word from our sponsors and return to to dive in just a bit further and we are back. I do an issue of quick correction. I had misspoken, said Stone Mountain. This was Yellow River Park in the case of eighteen year old Tory Land. I completely agree with you know. There is something to the human personality exacerbated by social media, and it is this. Human beings want to be Promethean. They want to breathe the bringers of light and knowledge, even if it's even if it's them, you know, reposting something. That's why people steal ideas and purport that those ideas are their own all the time, whether it's a meme, whether it's an aphorism, whether it's an invention, whether it's a song, et cetera. People want to be the person who brings knowledge, and some people are opposed to even admitting that they're learning something. This is um an abstract problem with human hardware, but we see it writ large again, probably with the best of intentions by people on social media. In this case, people are trying to warn their friends. Nobody wants to lose a stranger. Nobody even wants to lose people they dislike to something as horrific as homicide. But you have to think of the survivors in the family here, because sure, local law enforcement is saying that there's rampant misinformation about these tragedies right now, and they have they have denied that there is any evidence of a serial murderer. Uh. And the FBI is involved, as you said. Uh. But on the other side, we have when we look at the human side of people who have lost you know, their life partner, people who have lost their daughter or their relative or their close friend. They're on the other side of this saying things like this guy had something I thought insightful and important to say during the vigil for Janice UH that occurred this past Sunday night. He says, quote, she was a wonderful spirit, and I don't want that to be stained with things that you're hearing now. I want you to focus on the joy and love of Katie so you can imagine how how dramatic it can be, you know, to have lost someone in such a heartbreaking way and then to hop on your phone or your social media of choice and find lurid unverified reports. Right that that sounds like well, frankly, that could that could be interpreted as pitches for some episode and true crime series. There's something almost humanizing about that. And again, you know, we have to be careful here because people are overwhelmingly coming from very good intentions, from a very good place. They just don't want more people to die, which is totally understandable. And if you if you want to help someone in this situation, specifically, if you want to help Katie Janice Tory Lane, you can look into the resources that the relatives and local law enforcement have made available. Like as we record today, there's a ten thousand dollar reward being offered to anyone with information on Janice's murder. You can call a p D homicide at four oh four or five or sixty two thirty five where you can call crime stoppers and four oh four or five seven seven t I p s. There's also a go fund me page. You saw that as well, Yes, I didn't, Ben, I have a one last question for me anyway. Um, isn't it a little suss that FBI is involved though for just a stabbing? I mean, I know stabbing is certainly grizzly and and uh creates a lot of outcry and people's imaginations tend to run wild, especially you know, with the dog being killed as well, that certainly seems like kind of fetishistic murder, you know, um, much much more so than a crime of opportunity maybe. But why do you think the FBI is involved for this one case if they're saying there's not a pattern, which is certainly doesn't seem like there as I mean, the other park was like almost half an hour away, like at least twenty miles away, uh, and was a shooting, not a stabbing. So I know we were probably just conjecturing at this point, but do you have any thoughts as to why in an isolated case like this, just because it's a stabbing doesn't seem like reason to bring in the FBI unless there's something else going on. Yeah, it's a good question, and I would be misleading if I said I had anything more than speculation regarding FBI involvement here. But we can confirm again the FBI is looking into it if we can, if we can find the internal reasoning, or if any of our fellow conspiracy realists can provide us with that reasoning, then we'll be We'll be glad to learn more. But at this point I'm not I'm not specifically able to disclose or conjecture as to why the FBI is specifically involved. Okay, well, I think we'll probably be keeping an eye on this certainly, and maybe there will be more information that comes out. But as of now, I think we can say, based on the information that we have that this is likely not a serial killer um and we have nothing backing up any of these more intensely over the top, you know, grizzly aspects of the crime. Agreed, and we will update if more information comes to light. Our next piece of correspondence today comes from Nadia Commanency. Nadia Commanency, who says this is a fake alias for the Olympics, but writes to us with a tremendously insightful follow up to our earlier strange news story on n s O and the now infamous pegas is malware, spyware, whenever you want to call it, the software that is helping state level regimes murder innocent people. Hi, says Nadia, comminency, please not use my name. I want to explain a little bit more about pacases and companies similar to in ESSO. I'm trying to write this so that it is informative, but everyone is protected. That's what caught my eye here, Uh, Nadia, and no, I do want to note that this is a there's a pretty lengthy letters, so we're gonna paraphrase a little and we're going to use some excerpts, but we're going to make sure you get the soul of what's being said here. They continue saying there is private technology for hire for whoever can pay the bill. In ESSO is just one company, and the company with the worst reputation for having no scruples in business their private sector companies. But honestly, I find that questionable because they are outrageously capable. They can supply any intel for example real time satellite feeds, where the information obtained from real time satellite fees. This information can be used to identify when and where illegal fishing or legal waste dumping is happening. For example, whenever someone here's a tool is used by law enforcement, they expect the CIA and secret hits an espionage. This is not always the case, and there's a lot of protection of the environment that comes about from the use of companies similar to n s O, but not in The number one piece of evidence in a crime is the data mind from cell phones. All the contacts, any details of meetings, photo evidence of the crime, etcetera. Is on the phone. If all the criminal contacts can be linked to the organization of a crime, then you can take down the entire criminal organization. The phone information is so valuable. My dream is for an agency to bring reco charges against some of the criminals. It is still up to the investigative agency to prove a crime was committed, so spyware is really just a tool. A federal judge can give permission for wire taps and access to bank records. UH. These things combined as well as eyewitness testimon money, will make a case water tight. I guess I'm trying to say that there are people doing a lot of good with the same technology, and it is not that easy to get in on someone's phone, so it is not on my phone and your phone and his phone. Yeah, makes I mean, that makes sense, and I think that's a very valid point. Uh, this goes on Nadia Koma. Nancy says, finally, it's important that these surveillance companies have scruples ding ding ding we put the ding ding ding in there. Uh, say, I am a Russian mobster parentheses. A lot of Russians and ex Russian mobsters like using and doing this technology in parentheses, And my employee at my corrupt firm ran off with five hundred thousand dollars in bitcoin, and I want to find him. I can hire one of these companies to find them, so they can negotiate my money back for a finder's fee. Now, if there is honor among thieves and this mobster legit just once his money back, then an honorable company might help him. But say they want to kill him and get their money back, that's not something that honorable company would help with. And maybe they would not even help with rush them upster in the first place. These spy companies have all the info with their fingertips, they know or can find out who they're working for. They can decide who to help and who not to help, and they can also filter information they give back. The client cannot listen or go through a vegas Ist phone that's vegas is apostrophe d. When they hire someone to spy for them, the spying agency goes through the intel and decides what's relevant and what's not, what to tell the client, what's not divulge. If there is no evidence of a crime, there's no info to offer. Case closed, so they act as a middleman. These private companies act as certified informants on international cases. Fascinating. There's always a double edged sword with this kind of stuff. I mean, if people can use it for evil, then people can use it for good and vice versa. I mean, you can always flip the script and take something that's we see it all the time with this type of technology. And of course this is the kind of like or valence stuff that you could use against bad guys, you know, like that's much more helpful and efficient than say, wire taps and all the guidelines surrounding wire taps and how long you can listen and all of that stuff, you know, I mean, it's just not to be a broken record. But you know, in The Sopranos, Tony Soprano buys his son a SUV in one episode and he's like, I pulled all that GPS out of there. But this is you know, The Sopranos was in the days before cell phones, before like smartphones. If you look at the phones everyone has in that show, they're all like, you know, those little sprint type flip phones. So it wasn't even something that people considered. And you've gotta wonder if people in organized crime, and I know they're probably using smartphones for personal stuff, but I bet they still use burner phones for actual illegal operations, or they have some kind of special encryption on their devices. Not to sound too old school, but but there's something to be said for technology that would be considered archaic. It's a little bit easier to to make sure that the people you're reaching are the people you want to reach, and that no one's listening on the on the line, you know, Like I'm not saying all paper ciphers and dead drops, but don't be surprised that people still use some of those because they work. What I think Nadia is saying here is that we have to be careful not to lump all these private sector intel companies into one bucket. Uh. Nadia, I do appreciate that you agreed with us from from a position of expertise and credibility that an s O does have one of the worst reputations here UH. And in in return and reciprocity, I agree that these agencies are not all necessarily doing nefarious things. But in s O clearly, as we said in our previous segment, in s O clearly is claiming that they are not aware slash not responsible for uh, for the stalking of like Kashaki's family, for the deaths that have been traced to agencies using vegas is in Mexico and in other places around the world. And we aimed to be very very fair, fair to the best of our ability with the information we had when we presented an s O company's statements, UH, and when we presented the accusations of these journalists. But let's pause for word from our sponsor, and then let's let's dive into this a little bit more. While we're on break. Everybody check your phone, ask yourself what's on it? Just candy crush um, Let's see coop group on got dr Mario World. That's a fun one in some games when kids play, I got spotify them. Here ways a bunch of pictures that will probably never look at a lot. I don't know, hopefully not Pegasus though, But how how do you how does it get on there? Ben? I know it has to do with like you can get a FaceTime call that you don't even have to answer and it can infect you that way. There there was some really creepy do you think of we've always thought of Well, first off, we've always thought of max as being impervious to viruses. Viruses are only for PCs, we said, and that, of course isn't true anymore. For the longest time that we seem like to be blissfully you know, impervious to viruses where cell phones are concerned. But this is that's why I think this is such an interesting development. But it's also something that's been around for a lot longer than we realized. Right, Yeah, No, I think that's a really that's a really good point because originally vegas is would say end a malware link and you had to click on that link at least and then you would be you would get popped. But now, like you said, it can install itself with simply a missed call on what's app. I believe is the platform that's You're You're perfect. I'm sure. I'm sure there's work going on to make it even more easily transmissible. Right now, the only way to get rid of pagas is completely is to discard the phone like you have. You cannot really wipe it. You have to discard the phone. And then secondly, because this is if you look at objective, this is brilliant design. But secondly, to Nadia commanencis point, these companies do have the ability to act as a middleman to filter information. And if they have the ability to filter information, then does that not logically mean they are seeing the information. Does that not logically mean they are able to draw some conclusions about how this information is going to be used? Like you see a journalist family members show it up right and and their intel is going through vegases right, and then later that journalist is dismembered, is vivisected? Then is it like is it unfair to say that they probably could have figured out what the software was being used for. I just I don't know. I don't have all the facts, but it seems like it doesn't seem like an argument in good faith. Does that make sense my being too hard on them? No, I don't think so at all. I don't think you're being too hard on them at all. Um. But let's le's let's flip back to the you know, the positive uses for this. Like, I mean, we know, probably largely from fiction and true crime stuff, that career criminals, professional criminals are very paranoid about this kind of stuff, and I think that kind of paranoia is starting to filter into just you know, regular civilians, just because of all of the surveillance state type stuff that we're you know, reading about and seeing firsthand. But um, do you think it would take more to infect a criminal someone you were actually trying to surveil? Um, you know, for recod type cases, would it take more of a clever back door than say, just like a fishing scam or or even like a WhatsApp call that maybe someone wasn't expecting. I would think, you know, you see CEC mobsters throwing cell phones out the window all the time. I mean, I'm just wondering, like to get this done and to do it effectively, would there need to be even further more clever ways of infecting someone's phone with this? Yeah, that's the race. That's a good question as well because right now this hit the mainstream recently, but in the industry, pakeances is old beans. People know about it. What'sapp, Microsoft, Google, all the other kids, all the all the all the hits. Uh, the continually patching security loopholes that allowed pagases to function. But that doesn't mean the researchers on the vegas IS and s O side stopped doing that research. There are new variants of vegases that will probably come out with different or more sophisticated exploits. There are a couple of ways to think about think about your question. You're with organized crime. First, it's it would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous. But I think the average person would be surprised by how many high level criminal and like legal state level operations do dummy things, knucklehead things like have the administrator password for their system be you know admin or admin one two three? Uh, this this seems like a huge misstep, but it's not an uncommon one even today. A Uh. Secondly, it's tough because the more people you have in any operation, the more opportunities for exploits naturally come to exist. And all it takes is just one person who's a little bit sloppy and that can that can reco everyone, you know what I mean. So it's it's no surprise that some criminal organizations have very specific, pretty extreme rules about how they use telecommunication devices. You know, these devices are a necessity now for a lot of people, especially if you're looking at international crime. But one of the best, uh one, one of the best things that people have on their side when it comes to something like vegas Is is that vegas Is is not really something the average person could buy, you know, to star their X or something like that. It costs like millions of dollars to to use. You have to have some sophisticated handling. This is the opposite of plug and play. It's not like clear View AI or whatever this software. The journalists involved are saying that it is being used to target high value, high value folks who the most of the world would not think of as criminals. Like lawyers, journalists, politicians, um, people who might have access to top secret information via their device, you know, and like it's like you and I and our ride or die mat. A number of years ago, we were stranded in the Atlanta airport and we made for whatever, like eighteen hours or something. No, for a while, it seemed like an attorney GoF, you're talking about our friend we made. Yeah, yeah, and you know I was. I was going back and forth on whether he says his name on air, but he's we converted. He's a good fan of the show, friend of the show now and aside from being a magnificent guy. And dude, if you're listening, I hope it worked out with the girl. Thank you for taking take you for listening to our weird, weirdly specific advice. Um. But he had something interesting, like in his line of work, he had some pretty tight op sack on his work computer and he wasn't doing any spy stuff, you know, he was just working with financials and it was great to have him walk us through it, uh because you know, obviously were we are not gonna try to take advantage of anybody. But also I don't know if you remember this there was that moment where I just had to very politely say to him, you know, hey, man, this is fascinating because we're all nerds and we love seeing all this stuff works. But I don't know if you should be telling some dudes you just met at the airport, which he found hilarious. Well, I remember too, was the first time I've ever seen something that's now pretty commonplace, at least, you know, in terms of like three factor authentic authentication. But he had a thumb drive that had like a constantly changing key. It constantly updated like out of timer, like I think every like ten minutes or something like that. It changed, and he had to you know, put in a new key that was actually physically displayed somewhere or like on an app. I don't remember exactly how it works, but it's like, you know, they're all these authenticator programs now that you know, the keys literally are always on a cycle and changing, and you have to entern the new one and if you miss it by a couple of seconds and it won't work. So it just you know, proves that you have access to the device. So probably that kind of uh, multi factor authentication or encryption will maybe be more of a thing, uh, and get more robust, you know, and as that evolves, we will see attempts to break that security layer evolved in step. It's a continuing kind of Uh. Let's see. This might be too old school for some people, but if you remember the Mad magazine comics a spy versus spy, that's essentially That's essentially what's happening. But I really appreciated your point there, n Idea, like not all of these things are inherently bad. Indeed, all technology is like fire the way I said earlier, It can warm you and save your life, or it can burn you and your house. Doubt technology has ever been a double edged sword. And whether you're dealing with your smartphone at home, or whether you're dealing with weird email on your laptop, whether even your cars GPS is doing something weird, it's important to keep that in mind. Technology is only as ethical as the people who wield it. And with that, I think we can leave it there. We hope you enjoyed this week's listener mail. Thank you so much to m thank you so much to Nadia, and we cannot wait to hear from you. If you want to take a age out of their book and contact us. We have so many ways to do it. We try to be easy to find online. Please don't give us vegases, Please don't uh. Please direct your non uh Pegasus tainted admissives to us via our social media channels. The usual ones we've got Instagram or or Conspiracy Stuff show during a different order today. 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