From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Knowled. They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. You are here and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. It is time for our listener mail segment of the week, and we have some doozies for you. We've actually, we've been getting so much voicemail recently that we before we got started today, we talked a little bit about how we're going to tackle uh. Were still uh, we're we're working on We're working on the nevil list. We're checking it twice today. We've got some amazing rabbit hole emails. And as we've been doing with some of these segments in the past, uh, what one of us picked something a little bit lighter, as a bit of a breaker, a palate cleanser because the other stuff is so heavy. Uh. We have people who find themselves struggling with the belief system currently known as Q and on. We have people asking questions about what happens when you leave the US military but you're still not retirement age and you have what Liam Neeson would call a certain set of skills. And then we have a another question that I think I don't know about you guys, but it's been bugging me personally for a number of years. Uh, it's about mattresses. But but new spoilers, those spoilers. I do think these are three incredibly important topics. Maybe the mattress one is not as important, but just we're gonna do it anyway. Just roll with it, this this thing that's happening right now. No, you have found a wonderful email that pertains to something on everybody's mind recently, Q and on. And I think both Matt and I have had some personal experience with some of this stuff. Yeah, as have I. I I think I think it's something that's touched a lot of people, and it's so unexpected because I think when we all first heard about this, it just seemed like the fringe eest of the fringe, you know. It really did not strike me personally anyway as something that would take hold and get mainstream so much. But as we learned from our fantastic discussion with Jake Hanrahan about his amazing podcast Q Clearance, that goes into a lot of this. It is I think a combination of almost like a perfect storm of circumstances lead to Q and On being so mainstream. Uh. First and foremost being the way it was handled by the Trump administration and not condemning it um, but also what led it to even pick up the kind of critical mass that it did. I think a lot a lot of it had to do with people being really isolated and looking for answers and literally being stuck in their homes because of of COVID and quarantine and and it really does give you kind of some pretty fascinating rabbit holes to go down until you kind of look at it all from a distance a bit more of a remove and realize that a lot of stuff that goes into it just makes absolutely no sense just on a functional just on like a you know, consistency level, but also the notion that you know, democrats are part of a elite cabal of of pedophiles and murderers and cannibals. Uh, It's just you know, it requires some pretty serious suspension of disbelief. So the email that we got was from Valerie. He says, Hey, guys, my husband and I to coverage your show last year and have been completely hooked ever since. I was browsing Reddit uh tonight and came across an a m A thread from an x q and on believer. I was fascinated by the thread and the discussion about the psychology and tactics of cults. Because let's make no mistake, Um, while you can't necessarily point to a leader, I mean maybe this Q figure you could consider to be the leader, but not in the same way traditional cults have a single human being that is the figurehead at the four of the movement. Um. You know, Q and On is a basically decentralized Internet based cult. Uh. So Valerie goes on to say, I thought I'd passed along the thread. It would be super awesome if you got the redditor on the show to talk about his experience. If not, maybe just an episode or segment about x Q and honors. I'm sure there are some folks talking about it. Boy, are there ever? And yeah, this Reddit thread is it actually was locked because of a lot of you know, divisive chatter on it, and some of abuse of folks that were you know, coming in here and kind of hijacking the threat, etcetera, as you know the internet is want to do. But um, I think the most interesting thing to me about this was the recommendations this person, having been on the inside, made for folks who are trying to reach people, loved ones perhaps that have been kind of sucked into this, uh, this situation. UM. I think an initial reaction for some would be kind of throwing your hands up and being really angry and disappointed that someone that you know would would be taken in by this. But oftentimes that kind of behavior and that kind of you know, judgment just causes people to double down more. And I think we've got some stories, you know, from personal experiences of that very thing. Um. But this is one of the most I think interesting takeaways from the from the A m A uh realize you likely can't argue your queue out of their beliefs. This is the hardest thing to admit. Cults, harmful religions and ct S been a a CT stand for I've been seeing all over this post conspiracy theory or for c N space T is another abbreviation. This is common to I think, as we mentioned an earlier thing, a common way to uh get people committed to a cult like belief is to have exclusivity and terminology. You're absolutely right. You can also stand for theorists. Yes, for sure. Thank you for clarifying. So, cults, harmful religions, and ct s are all inclusive belief systems. Often they provide us them narrative of the world with good guys, bad guys, sheeple and enlightened. Uh. They provide a sort of moral framework. Uh. They provide meaning, community belonging, ego boosting, and answers to sometimes good questions. They are a sort of mega belief that rests on multiple separate pillars. Thus, no one single pillar falling is enough to topple it. It's a fabulous point. Attacking a ct S belief head on will be met with excuses and rationalizations, but likely not honest introspection. I think we've seen this time and time again with with cults throughout history. Uh. Try out this is a really great point here made by the poster. Try out street epistemology and learn about critical thinking, cult behavior, and the psychology behind these things. I mentioned Peter Bogojin. He has a neat, non threatening way of exploring and unpacking people's beliefs. I have no idea how successful they would be with ct s QUES, but the concept seems promising to me. The bite cult model b I T. Stories of people who left Westboro, Baptist Scientology, Mormonism, etcetera. Might shed light on the sorts of factors that result in people escaping harmful ideologies. Realize that cult stuff like Q is a sort of mind virus. They have been programmed, and deep programming is not easy. Rick Alan Ross seems like a good source of info on this stuff, though I don't have a lot of experience with him. Uh some really good you know reading materials here, advice coming from someone who was inside of this kind of belief system and was able to escape it mentally. And I mean, is this is a mental thing entirely. It's interesting. You're not like going to a place, You're not living in a compound, but the compound is like all of the Internet, you know, and and and it's it's it's probably the easiest most low level by in of a cult is just having to log on and and click on things on the internet as opposed to having to show up perhaps do rituals, you know, live among your fellow cult members. Um, but this, you know, I'd love to hear Ben and Matt your your thoughts on this and and any stories of individuals that you've come across you maybe are are still in this or have have have kind of found their way through it. I'll just have a quick story here. The other day I was being a dad and hanging with other dads at the park with our children and met a new person named Rich. I will just call him Rich for this. He runs in Atlanta bitcoin meet up and it's fascinating dude into cryptocurrency, very intelligent and doing very well for himself. And he was describing some of at some of these meetups, there would every once in a while be a person who would describe themselves as you know, a Q and on believer or a QUE And he just had a particular interaction with this person where it seemed as though he was just attempting to not bring him out of the Q thing, but you know, just talk with him rationally about it. And he was having difficulty with this person using thought terminating cliche. It's something we've mentioned before a lot on the show. And one thing that this post mentions at the bottom down it's an edit down to the bottom of this Reddit thread where he's saying that you know, colts use these and he uses the phrase thought to eminating cliches, and the one that Q and On uses is quote trust the Plan, which is very similar to a lot of religions phrase that you would use. Um, the Lord works in mysterious way. Is this kind of thing where it's just like, don't worry, it's gonna you know, you don't have to understand everything. It's it's you know, there's a there's reason behind all of this. I love this one from Mormonism mat that I've never heard before. Doubt your doubt. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a good one. Um. The only reason why I bring up rich is that, you know, the people that meet up with him in these things are a lot of times a bit quiet, so a lot of times keep to themselves, but are also doing very well financially. And it's interesting to me that, um, just how we as humans can operate and you know, have such varying beliefs and why widely different beliefs but also still be very successful, also still be very um. Yeah, the whole point they're in springing up this interaction that I had is that this person that I just met said he had just met this new person and he identified that immediately. And to me, the group of people that he meets up with are all interested in cryptocurrency and specifically in trading and watching you know, the trends and buying and selling in the markets, and you have to be intelligent to understand how those markets work and to be successful within them. And it doesn't matter how quote educated you are or intelligent you are. This kind of thinking can sweep up at anybody, especially when it's uh, when it creates a feedback loop of irrepressible self validation. It's such a pet peeve of mine when people conflate intelligence with some sort of immunity to UH. Two fallacies. I mean, don't forget a ton of people who graduated Harvard. We're racist when they came in, and they were racist when they left. That is that is also a logical fallacy. I would say, what makes Q and on and easy buying comparatively is um not just not just the cult like practices which we outlined in earlier video, but also the a R gamification aspect of it. We've had a lot of game designers come in and say like, well, this is how I would have hooked people, this is how I would make kind of a slot machine of the mind that's always paying off a little bit and a little bit and a little bit and getting you into sunk cost on a deeper mode of level. And then, of course, I think anybody outside of this when reading the Q and On lore, which you can call it lawre now, um, I think I can't be the only person who read this and thought, whoa big failed screenwriter energy here bub It did also turn out by the A that one major Q and On influencer was identified just what January as a writer, a failed screenwriter named Robert Cornero Jr. Or if I want I need to be more fair and aspiring screenwriter, it's it's uncol to call it failed. But but with this in mind, um, I would just like to read I want to be careful for anonymity. I would like to read some statements I found from people who doubled down post election on Q and on. Uh let's see leading up to Q and on and to keep this person. Uh, I mean to keep this person as anonymous as possible. Going to read this and get you guys reaction. Did you see all the executive orders Trump put out today on January eighteenth. He's not fighting for a job. President Trump has invested everything in you and me. He's not going to concede in two days. Do you hear me. He's allowed this to play out because he's protecting us as an incredible leader. He's not about to quit on us. He's a genius, a master chess player. This is all according to plan. God bless America, and that's the plan. Uh. The same person after the election, UM went a little bit nuts, saying, see, it's all part of the plan. Don't lose your faith. Don't believe everything you see in here today. It's all in motion behind the scenes. He won't let us down. It might take some time. The best is yet to come. God Spread, God Spread JFK Jr. I think that might be a type of but as you guys know, JFK Jr. Is a is a big figure in in the lore here. Um. I love the point, No, I love love love the point that Um, this poster makes on Reddit. Uh, it is tempting to try to bully people to change their beliefs. It's tempting to yell at them because really what you're doing is just sort of mentally pleasuring yourself by making yourself feel like you're even more righteous and validated. You're not helping that person. And I would argue that most people who are yelling at somebody let's to try and get them to change their beliefs, aren't really trying to change their beliefs. They're just trying to yell at someone. Street. Epistemology is a cool name. It's also a Socratic method. Listen to someone, hear them out, phrase things as questions you know um, and and participate in active listening because God knows, we are surrounded by thought terminating cliches every single moment of the day. No one is any better in that regard, I think. I think another really valuable takeaway from this Reddit post is the idea of taking care of yourself as well. When when you're trying to not rescue somebody but make somebody see the light like you have, there have to be boundaries that you set for yourself, whether it's a family member, a loved one or just a friend. Um, because this stuff is toxic. And if you keep putting yourself out there time and time again and the person keeps, you know, pushing the stuff on you and not respecting those boundaries, there comes a point where you do have to just say, Okay, well I tried, I did my best, and it's not your responsibility to save everybody. Uh. They say this person says, love them, be there for them, but set boundaries. If nothing above works, you need to protect yourself and manage the potential damage and fall out on the relationship. Luckily, I didn't hurt my family much because they mostly ignored my rants and ramblings. If it's taking a toll on you, you may need to make it clear that you just can't engage with them about this anymore. And you know, I'm gonna be completely candid. Uh. You know, my mother isn't a Q and non person, but there are certain things that she believes that I've had to draw a line in the sand and just say I respectfully ask that we not discuss this because I just it's it's difficult for me to engage. Uh. And that's on me on like like reading this, it almost makes me feel like that was a cop out on my part because I have taken the attack more of getting upset and and and not treating her like with you know, it's so easy to just, you know, condemn somebody for their beliefs, as opposed to trying to hear them out and not hear them out like, oh I, I maybe you can convince me, because at least at least thinking that to me, some of these these things are just lines in the sand. Uh so often, but um, there are some other tactics that I think are important. Explore their doubts. The poster says, maybe there's something that your Q doesn't understand or doesn't make sense. What is it? Asking questions is not the same as confronting, and if done well, might have a chance to crack some of their ideas or find out if there are any conspiracies they don't believe. I hated flat earthers and lizard folk while fully convinced we were being visited by aliens and Democrats were eating babies. Maybe if I had been encouraged to explore that discrepancy, I would have flexed my atrophied critical thinking muscle, because again, a big part about those thought terrainning cliches is to shut down critical thinking. Sure, yeah, and the and the the dilemma about that is that thought terminating cliches are to a degree necessary for the type of abbreviated, dense communication that we use in the current era. We don't have a lot of deep learning, and frankly, there's often not time for deep conversations in most people's lives. But it can go too far. Just like you know, carrots are great for you, but you can eat too many carrots, which is not not my best analogy, but we sell more time to have a good one. Uh. The issue on the table is one of sunk cost fallacy. It's also one of I would say pitchforking, because you have to remember when people are confronted. This goes back into our earlier episode on why you can't win an argument online. When people are confronted and what they feel is a belligerent way about something they believe or a hold to be true, neurochemical research shows that they will double down. The part of your brain sometimes called the reptilian brain that has the anger and of ad stuff and the killer be killed things. That is activity spikes there when people are confronted, especially if they feel confronted, and it doesn't matter whether or not there are facts involved in that case, because then, um. The one of the reasons people climber read this threat, but one of the reasons people can sometimes fall into demonstrable untrue conspiracy theories is because if there is a seed of truth to it, it feels like critical thinking. It feels very much the same, and to our brain sometimes the way that your brain cannot recognize the difference between fake laughter and real laughter. To our brain, this process of synthesis and analysis feels the same whether we're looking at something that is actually true or is just something we believe to be true. Uh. In this case, it's a little different though, because they did they did have foreign assistance, like the Q and On movement had foreign dis info assistance, but maybe not as much as people would like to think. A lot of the seeds for this were home grown. And we're there, you know what I mean. The car parts were already there at one point or another. Someone was bound to build the actual car and drive it. Uh. I don't know. See, I I see some EXQ stuff happening, but I also see this evolving over time, maybe maybe just something different. The the beautiful insidious thing about trust the plan is that the plan always changes, right, Like the predictions have been wrong on the Q clock. Uh, the predictions have been wrong regarding policy. Uh. The most recent I think, perhaps the most shrill arguments leading up to the election were incorrect in that they also cited things that just don't happen in government. It's not as if the US government has had for more than two centuries some kind of secret plan for secret you know, legal mechanism that they just never happened to use, you know what I mean. It just it doesn't bear up to scrutiny. But that doesn't mean the person who believes that should be anathema. You know, it's not. It's not worth it's not worth losing a real relationship with a loved one. If there is a vie double alternative, which is hearing them out, you know, listening more than we speak and asking well intentioned questions, no gotcha questions. I just feel like, Okay, well, what do you think about blah blah blah? Well who do you think Q is? Well, Um, that's interesting. Why do you think that that kind of stuff. You know, Socrates had it right, I think that's very good man. Scredit method all day. You know, it's not easy to live with a conspiracy realist or a conspiracy theorist. Just ask my wife, and uh, you know it's it's sorry, so any and all loved ones out there, but hopefully, hopefully, hopefully it's a mixture of good and bad, because that's what we you know, this is the line that we explore on the show, right, That's that's why this show exists, that line between what is real and what is not and how do we navigate that and let's do it together. So I just want to say thank you so much for writing in. Oh and last point to um, it's pretty clear that I believe that Noel, Matt and I do not subscribe two and have not subscribed to the set of beliefs or allegations or claims to made by Q and on. But if you do, in particular, then please don't be afraid to write in. You know, I want to hear you out. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna instantly say you know, that's hogwash. I'm gonna listen to what people are saying and the thing is that I we did not find any of those predictions that came true, and we got dunked on pretty hard by some some listeners who very much did believe in Q and On and very much did think we were giving it short shrift. But we did our due diligence, I would say, and we just we couldn't find anything anything provable about it. But the important part of this sort of reasoning is to put the truth over the opinion or the comfort level. So don't be afraid and don't feel like weirded out. No one's gonna no one's gonna mock you or just send you some kind of egregious meme. We want to hear from you. Although I am a fan of an egregious meme, I'm not gonna lie. But absolutely so, whether or not you've you know, you've found your way in it, or you're in the thick of it, uh, send us your stories. Uh. And I completely I'm on board with you, Ben. I mean, I do not subscribe to any of this, and I think a lot of it is pretty toxic and dangerous. But I am absolutely uh here with an open mind to have a conversation about it with anyone, well said, And with that, thanks again to our listener. We're gonna pause for a word from our sponsor and we'll be back with something completely different, something that may also be conspiracy. Okay, I can't do the Eddie Murphy thing and start laughing at jokes before I make them. Anyway, sponsors, and we are back. We received a wonderful email from Bridget. G Uh here's what you said. Bridget. Bridget said, Hi, guys, I love your podcast. It's interesting and entertaining. They call me a paranoid Cliff Claven ha ha, all in fun. I have this curiosity that has got me wondering for some time now. I don't know if this is common in other states, but in Minnesota we have so so many RV dealers, acres of them, and hundreds of mattress stores. I did a quick search on the r vs and there was eight four seven in my little hometown alone. The mattress stores are endless, so what the heck? Most people buy maybe three mattresses in their adult life, and then r vs. Who's buying all of these? The math doesn't add up. Are these legit businesses or fronts for something? Money laundering? Some kind of corporate tax fraud. Can you guys help me out? Can you kill my curiosity? Thanks Bridget, Well, thank you bridget First off, no, we're never going to kill your curiosity. Our show depends upon people having curiosity, so we can't We can't help you there, but we can try to answer at least a couple of these questions. Because it turns out that Matt Noel and I, along with along with Mission Control and several of our colleagues, we have we've talked about the weird thing with mattress stores often sometimes sometimes over a few drinks, I'll admit, because we're baffled just down the street from our hallowed studios. Conspiracy HQ. We just decided to call it. Apparently in Atlanta, Georgia, there are the meme is true. On the streets. There are two mattress firms directly across from one another on a street called Moorland. And these uh, these match as firms are not different in any way other than their physical location. Yeah, other than one's easier to get to going in one direction, the other is easier to get to going in the other direction. Demand is that high? Yeah? I mean, what is going on? Maybe there's like, maybe there's a subterranean passage linking them and it's all just the same mattress store the way that uh, quaking Aspen appears to be a bunch of different trees, but it's one gigantic organism. Maybe all mattress firms are quaking Aspen style. I don't really. These mattresses are stuffed with all manner of illicit products, right right, right, Maybe there's some maybe there's some code, you know what I mean, like you ask for the footless mattress, like I'll have the hands free mattress from the back. Uh, I don't understand. Uh, yes, so this is so this is an interesting question. There are a couple of ways to tackle it. R VS. I'll be kind of a separate thing. But the mattresses. First off, I was so clueless on this. I think I may have mentioned it on the show before. I drove past multiple mattress firms for years and years and years, and it wasn't until a couple of years back that I realized it's supposed to be some sort of pun. I thought it just meant mattress organization, you know, like I mean, you know, technically you want your mattress to have just the rights amount of sync, just the right amount of bounce, not too firm, not too soft. You know what I mean? That goldilocks out is what you want. It's up there with the time that I realized the primary ingredient in traditional soy sauces, you know soy uh So. Look, even if you overthink things, you're gonna miss some stuff. So with this, there are a couple of answers. There are a couple of possibilities. One you probably the most boring, the most mundane, is at a store like a matress store doesn't actually have to sell that many mattresses to make their rent and some profit every month, right like you, a mattress isn't particularly cheap unless you buy a used one off Craigslist. It's true. It depends on how many employees you have, you know, you know, another cost like electricity and all these other things. Because I can imagine it is true, you sell a couple of mattresses, you're good to have a couple of people work in the store. I went into one not long ago and there was a single employee in there, and I actually made a purchase in a mattress firm, you guys, So I'm I'm maybe contributing to this whole problem. It was just a bad frame, but still it was like to or something, so it wasn't a cheap buy. Well, it's especially with you know, obviously in the podcast business. We're we Will you know, worked very closely with Casper and Purple and all of these like online you know, way Farrell Cindy a mattress, you can get the bargain Basement one off of Amazon. Uh and and living in a society of increasingly kind of issues going into brick and mortar show rooms, you know, because we don't want to like talk to humans. I guess, um, it's very interesting that these things are still around. And I guess to to your point band of the fact they can be kind of skeleton crude, I still don't quite get it because they have to pay commissions, you know as well. I mean that's the only way that folks that sell them probably make money. Right, it's a commission based thing if you're actually working in a showroom. I imagine maybe if we break it down by month, right, let's say, just picking numbers out of the air, Let's say a store pays ten k a month in rent. That's pretty high right in most parts of the world. Uh. So let's say their margin profit is like fifty and they're selling mattresses, uh for a grand very expensive mattresses. Then I'm doing this just to make very easy math. If you sell one mattress per day in twenty days, you've made rent, and the rest of those ten days that's all profit. That's that's everything else you need, right, I guess you would say rent. Let's say that's rent and utilities uh and insurance, operating costs, whatever. So it could be possible that it's just very easy to make money off of a mattress store, or it was because to your point and all the rise of online mattress ordering. Um, you know, it's probably probably a huge disruptor for this. So that's like the that's like the borrying, mundane answer, and it's probably true in many situations the math might just work out. But again, there are problems there. There there are problems, and then before we get to those, just want to say one last thing in support of this business model. You could argue too that having a showroom is so rare these days that it's almost like having advertising It's almost like having like a very expensive billboard that you and walk into. You know, because you can still order k order of mattress firm stuff through a website as well, or they exclusively work out of showrooms. I'm not familiar with the workings of the firm. I know you can call them and they'll have it ready for you when you pick it up. We also have to point out that the conspiracy, the conspiratorial aspect, the idea that there was money laundering involved a lot of times when someone is trying to launder money, people will have store fronts that are just operations to clean dirty money. But often those are gonna be things where a lot of cash transactions occur, like casinos or car washes as breaking bad presented or parking lot. Yeah, that's a great example. It's gonna say very very high volume laundromat, but they would have to be washing a lot of underwear or mattress sheets, yes, okay, to keep things thematic. So this if somebody is laundry money through a mattress store, it may not be their best choice except for one thing. There is one real conspiracy that happened in the world of mattress manufacturing. And it is this. Mattresses used to be much more expensive to manufacture. The margin on a mattress used to be lower, slimmer, smaller. As the cost of manufacturing mattresses went down, Blame it on outsourcing, blame it on better production methods, etcetera, the retail price stayed approximately the same. So that margin get biggers on Cameron cases YouTube, so that margin goes from like a teeny bit here to a much higher proportion. They're still not as large a margin as say a pizza joint or popcorn at the movie theater, but now you're making money that feels like hidden money. So now maybe if you wanted to, if we wanted to launder money through a mattress store, which is of course the original dream the four of us have before we started podcast, uh, then what you would do is this, you would start cooking the books, not necessarily on the customer facing end, you would start cooking the books internally on your internal cost. And so now instead of paying uh, I don't know, two hundred bucks cost for a mattress that you sell for like eight hundred bucks, you say that you're buying it for six hundred bucks and that your mark up it is only two d dollars, and then now you have an opportunity. There's something there at freeze. They kind of backwards, but you can you can cease the gist here, right, especially for the supplier you say you're selling at six hundred, but you're really selling it two hundred. Then you get he gets a wiggle route, right, he got some latitude. You can make the big work in your direction. So that that's a real thing that happened. But as far as why there's so many, the primary argument against it being a common money laundering scheme is just that there are so many. Well, yeah, did you see what they did? That this was a market strategy apparently that that mattress firm started doing where they were buying up smaller chains. As they would buy those up, they would end up having a mattress firm right next to a mattress firm, because mattress firm previously would move into territory where there was already a local chain trying to sell mattresses and put it across the street to be like, what's up mattress firms here? How are you doing? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do sorry, little chain, and then they buy that little chain, and now there are two mattress firms looking at each other across Monroe or which one is it? Morland? And you know that this article has some interesting exerpts from a discussion on Reddit. What what conspiracy theory buy into and why um and other people from other parts of the country are pointing out the exact same thing I remember seeing. This is a quote. I remember seeing four mattress firms all on each corner of an intersection once there is no way there is such a demand for mattresses. Uh. And then there's an edit. A few people seem confused. I'm talking about multiple of the same mattress store, and that's exactly what we're talking about, so we're very much on the same page. There's also the point about show rooms, because most people still would prefer to buy a mattress in person. You're going to spend a third year life on it, right ideally, so so what you would what you would be looking for is an in person try out. You want to go in and lay down on it. There's a great key and Peel sketch about this too, but it's not appropriate for work, and then and then you would after after that. I don't think this happens to a ton of people, but after that, some folks might be embarrassed. You might be like, I went and laid down on a dozen different things in your store, I have to buy at least one. That's dude. I have that feeling every time I go into a physical store. I've been walking around here for like twenty minutes. I gotta buy something anything again, right, sir? Do you need do you need to pull something from the shelf. So I'll just take the gum. Just give me the gum. Give me the gum. I am on the complete opposite, and I'll go into a mattress store and just lay down on mattress with zero intention of buying anything, just to catch a quick little, you know, chill time when I'm at the mall. But I wanted to point out really quickly. I went to the mattress from his website, and they do offer the same exact stuff that the Caspers and Purples and Lisas of the world offer, free shipping direct door to door um or including hauling away of your old mattress. They also offer a one hundred and twenty nights sleep trial, which is a big factor of Casper and a lot of those other companies. So you can send it back if you're not satisfied. Um. And they you know, they have like in house financing and all of that, and of course they carry multiple brands. UM. So it's interesting. I can see your point bent about for some people, it is still important to be able to kick the tires on the thing. People don't like buying things sight unseen. And the the last point to make there is really if you want to if you want to have that vicarious living experience. I've never been kicked out of an Ikea and I have fake lived in those before. Uh, just in New York and lived to one. You know the do you know the second biggest furniture retail company in the world Rooms to Go. No, what is it? It's the company that owns Mattress firm. No, it's called Steinoff. I've never even heard of. That is the European uh, South African. I think it was German. Then the company moved to South Africa. I'm not exactly sure who the whole background, but they purchased it for they purchased Mattress firm for two point four billion. They're not like a store there's they're a holding company, but it's number two to Ikea, at least according to some reporting from w b R as today on I wonder well, bridget we are on the case. Uh. I just received a text from the deep State at our an s A intern uh, saying just thin ice but with a heart emoji. So I don't didn't too much trouble. I think we just need to pause, I have a word from our sponsor and return with a different story before the mattress octopus gets us. Don't look up the name, Marcus juiced. Al Right, we are back, and we're going to jump to an email we got from I'm going to use your name Robert here it goes, go ahead and use my name. My n s A agent probably knew I would send this before I did. I did, Robert, So you and your n s A agent, there you go. That's your name, Robert, he says. I won't mention anyone else's name, though I know several ex military that when they came back from deployment have complained about PC's that's private contractors and how they don't have to play by the same rules because they were there as private protection contractors and not as a country's armed forces. Some of them, after serving their time, have decided to get out instead of re instead of re upping going back, but then got a job as a PC and went right back to where they had just left. So I guess leaving their military service then going back to the same place they were as a private military contractor. UM the ones I've asked why basically said that now they will finally get to shoot the bad guys and do the stuff they could not do as a soldier, and the pay is much better, much much better. He says, So, how does this apply to me? When serving as a member of the U. S Armed forces? They have strict rules of engagement that prohibit them from being the aggressor or keep them from protecting the citizens living around them if they themselves are not threatened. It's very frustrating and even more frustrating if a PC a contractor can shoot a known bad guy without it being an act of war. I think most who see this and are frustrated that they can't do anything about it are motivated to become private contractors themselves so they can go and do what they couldn't do themselves. To me, it's scary because it floods the market with hired guns. Oh A, Robert, thank you so much for writing in and for telling us about your experience on this show. We've talked about private military contractors before a bit briefly, I think on in the audio side. We've got several videos you can go check out if you wish to kind of get a basis of knowledge around this topic um or you know, maybe you have some experience yourself. Our coverage prior to this has largely been on that line that Robert is describing to you here between what's the difference between a military officer or you know, a soldier in a military and then a private contractor who is working on behalf of that military and what rules apply to these two different people, and what like in practice, what does that look like? And some of the best examples that we've gotten before in the past and looking at this came from the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq. The most recent war in Iraq. I don't know if everyone remembers this, but back in the day, there was a massacre that occurred in a rock at the hands of some Blackwater employees, private military contractors who were there in Iraq, and it was a you know, when the reporting came out about it, it was very harrowing. It was an awful thing that occurred. And originally Ben helped me with this, but it originally when the story broke, it felt as though these men weren't going to be tried or they were they weren't going to be getting in trouble initially, and I think that's why there was such an outcry for it, because there were there were these civilians in I Rock that got massacred by private military contractors, and it seemed like there wasn't gonna be any justice to talk about the Nisour Square massacres seven Blackwater, and that was just initially what occurred. Um gosh, I'm I'm having a hard time even alling back to this time. Was that two thousand seven? Okay, so that was right before Stuff they Don't Want You to Know became a video series and you know, we were still looking at this stuff and talking about it, uh in the first several years of this show. But it it was a rough thing to even think about that the United States was sending over members of the military that were mercenaries. That's I mean that you can think about it that way. These private military contractors are mercenaries, human beings with guns that have a mission to do a certain thing depending on what they're told to do for pay. Yeah. Um. And the reason why I think this is it's important to address right now is because something happened about a month ago that applies to those specific Blackwater employees or former Blackwater employees who have been in jail for a long time, quite quite a time. They were pardoned um by the outgoing pre sennant Donald Trump. Now, the reason why this is news is because it was seventeen innocent civilian citizens who were gunned down in two thousand and seven and then for for the you know, the top official, the leader of the country that represented the killers to say you are pardoned. Uh, it feels like a massive blow, it does. And just just to be completely clear, they were tried and found guilty in like in a civilian court, right that that is correct, so you know they would not have had the same protections. I guess you could call it as actual members of the military who would be tried internally or court martialed or what have you. You know, based on whatever metric the Army uses to decide whether something is a war crime or just collateral damage. So this really blurs that line, doesn't it. It does, It does, And you know we're not We're not gonna sit here and tell you it's an easy situation to deal with threats when you're operating in the field somewhere, no matter who you are, if your military or private contractor, it's not easy to assess dangers that are around you. Um. And it's not always a black and white situation when you know you have to fire your weapon or you decide to fire your weapon. But in this particular circumstance, I think I think it's a little easier to see that there were unnecessary deaths that occurred here. Um. And you know, again, it's easy for me to say sitting here behind a microphone as a guy who's never been in combat, but but good god it it's tough anyway. We don't have to get stuck on on the pardons thing, which is worth your time if you want to look that up. What I do just want to continue talking about is the future of private military contractors. Other instances that have occurred where contractors have done something that they shouldn't have done and either gotten away with it or you know, we just don't know about yet. I think it would be worth it for everyone listening right now and for for us personally to look into that stuff further. And Uh, and we would love to hear from you if you're listening out there and you have experience, Matt, What what was it that led this to be such a big news story? Obviously it was reported, so there was there were a journalist present, something happened, and and to your point, I feel like stuff like this could happen in a vacuum. Uh, and we'd never hear about it. But what about this particular case caused it to be such a you know, create such a public outcry. I feel I feel like such a dunce here, Ben, Was it not? Was it not leaked as part of a wiki leaks thing? I feel like that's how I remember learning about it. Um. I know it's not the Iraq war tapes. Um. I'm just having a hard time recalling because so so many things were so many things we're coming out from wiki leaks around that time, Uh, you know, around two thousand or maybe it's two thousand nine, but it was just I remember watching the footage, the video footage of some of it and reading the stories um when we when we made those videos been and it just well we we know that The New York Times reported on this in two thousand seven, and there were guards who witnessed the incident who also Blackwater guys, who said that they felt the shootings were unjustified. And then journalists began digging around and seeing some increasingly troubling things about oversight, about the number of incidents where in Blackwater, uh, Blackwater employees were firing first regardless of circumstance. That one of the reasons this was such a big deal these pardons on December is because is the people who got pardoned had been sentenced to One of them have been sentenced to life in prison. The other three have been sentenced to thirty years in prison each, and that was in twenty fifteen, because they went to trial in and this was a this was a long legal saga, so they served about five years, if you want to call it that a little more than five years. And this was seen as a profound insult to the family members of the victims as well as rocky citizens in general, where as you can imagine, the US has not the best reputation. Uh. It also brings up and I think this is what are this, this is what you're talking about, Robert. It brings up some of these even larger questions about the role of private contractors or if you want to call them mercenaries, uh, in what what their role is in a state military or state level armed forces armed service Because you know, I don't know if you guys remember what's called the rent a coup scandal. I do not. That is that this is the accusation of you can read a great thing by the Brookings Institution on this, uh called outsourcing war. And this actually this happened before, uh the before the events that we're talking about with Blackwater. The idea was that the private military industry would give several things plausible deniability, right, so you can say it wasn't necessarily our country attacking you. Uh. It would also blur the lines between civilians and soldiers, which you know terrorism does that too, right. Uh. And then it also had a profit motive. It can make a lot of money for some people, not for everybody, but it can make a lot of money for people and the at least going to Brookings, the private military industry, it's very much a thing emerged at the start of the nine nineties. But I would be very careful with that. You could say maybe the modern private military industry emerged at the start of the nineteen nineties, but the history of war is lousy with mercenaries, like it's a real it's a real thing. And also, just to be completely fair, when we say mercenaries, we're talking about people who are an active hot combat right direct conflicts. A private contractor or private military contractor is not always that. They could be someone who's tasked with repairing vehicles, right, Uh, they could be someone who's tasked with driving a truck somewhere in a foreign country. There's not not all of these people are like x X special forces or something like that. It's very important to make that distinction. How of Burton and all the people who are in a Rock and Afghanistan building basis or or people who have decided to take I don't know, it's tough because you could argue there's something similar with the revolving door in the defense industry. Right, you put your time in, you get to a high enough level in Uncle Sam's organization, and then you just on the strength of your connections joining a private organization. So now you've got to you know, you've got to sell all these new missiles. So you've got to sell this new uh, this, this new helicopter armament or module. So you are the person who knows Senator Farfignugen right, because you work together. You're in the army. So people will pay you easily half a million dollars just because you know that guy, and you can call him and say, you know, what's really kick ass this new stuff we have for apaches. UM find is always good with the Apache stuff. I noticed that. Well, I just want to I think it's important for us to say, like, when we're talking about this private public practice, not everybody involved as a soldier. And I think it's also UM is still troubling from from like the halls of Washington all the way out to the most remote locale you could imagine. This is troubling because it can make it can make a double standard, you know what I mean. And then what happens in negotiations when two countries or two groups are trying to reach a piece of cord of some sort and they say, okay, look, you need to answer for this war crime that was committed. What happens when the negotiators like, well, that technically wasn't us. We paid them, but it wasn't us. Yeah, what happens when it's not a private military contractor anymore and it's an alphabet boss Sston. I was about to say, Boston market Boston Dynamics, Boston Marketing, that's their main stream of income, I think, right. But like if Boston Dynamics creation one of these robots that is armed at some point in the future and carrying out missions the same way a private contractor would, and it malfunctions or does something incorrect, who gets blamed? Then that's what our future is gonna look like. I think it's worth us talking about this more, and we should. Well, I wanted to ask a quick question of of both of you guys, what are your thoughts in general on the institution of the presidential pardon. I know that's a big question, but I've always it's always like kind of skis me out a little bit. It's like, did you break the law? Were you convicted? Then that should stand Like it feels like, I know, maybe it's harder to swallow when it's something that feels unjust like this, And there are certainly people that perhaps wrongfully convicted or a pardon makes sense. This one did not feel that way. But in general, it seems like an awful lot of power for one person to just unequivocally wield with no oversight. It's kind of weird because it ends up being your personal perspective in the perspective of the president, right, that's really the only thing that comes into it. I wish it was more limited. I wish it was fewer pardons could be given out. You know a hard number. I don't if there is, I don't know it, but I've never I've never seen anyone say whoa, whoa, will slow down on the pardoning. Mr President. Yeah, there's no explicit hard number. The biggest limiting factor is that you can grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the US, accepting cases of impeachment. I remember, impeachment can apply to uh can apply to like a member of the judicial branch as well, So that's that's what you cannot touch with this uh UM. It was controversial from the time it's from from the time of its inception. You know, people like George Mason said this, I think it was Mason had this quote where he was he was basically saying, look, Pardons, makes sense if every president is as good as George Washington. And let's be honest, my dudes, not all the presidents that come after him are going to be as good as this guy. We kind of locked out, and everybody's like, now, come on, man, we're doing a we're doing a country thing. It's gonna be great. We're starting We're doing a start a country bit. So yeah, Pardons. Well, and even then, like imagine in the Revolutionary War, if you're gonna pardon someone who was working for the country, who was you know, would be considered a patriot by many, but maybe that person killed, you know, fifteen people in an effort to to create that country and fight for the formation of the United States, some people are gonna think that person should stay in jail forever, do whatever, you know, remain I'm just completely made up. I'm just saying, like you're gonna have you're gonna have differing viewpoints. The it's the freedom fighter terrorist thing, right. Well, Also, I don't want to derail us here. But with the idea of a pardon, you'll you'll hear it being portrayed as a mechanism for combating corruption for a flawed judicial process, because remember the primary threats of the primary potential for corruption in the judicial branch is the fact that judges are often appointed rather than elected. And you know, if you get ring Raith status and you're one of the supremes, then you're in there for life or until you cry uncle, uncle Sam. I guess. So there is this it's meant to and I think it's well intention and it's meant to be. It's meant to give the executive branch the ability to directly combat corruption in some other way, you know. Uh, And it plays a huge role, or like clemency as while plays a huge role when we talk about capital punishment, which the US has just historically not done a great job with, right And you can't you can go back after you've killed an innocent person and admit that you killed an innocent person, but they're still dead, you know. So there's a lot writing on this, but pardons are I think, still going to be controversial for a long time, regardless of the administration agreed, and hey, we're gonna end here. Thank you so much for writing in Robert, and and thank you so much, bridget Uh. If you are if you are affiliated, by the way, in any shape, form or fashion with a mattress store, give us the scoop, you know what I mean, You could contact us. You can contact us directly. Uh. We we can't wait to hear from you. And if you're a mattress sponsor, hey, we're we're looking for him, so come come our way. And as as we said earlier, of course, if you are a former member of q and on or you are currently you currently believe that there is still some sand to some of this stuff, even if not all of it, then we'd love to hear from you as well. You can find us in the usual social media spots. We are conspiracy stuff and conspiracy stuff show on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. You can also find us on our Facebook group. 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