From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Mett, my name is Noel. They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. It's time for our listener mail segment and as you know, as we are wont to do a brief peak behind the curtain conspiracy Realist, we have one of our not this episode, but hopefully an upcoming episode, we'll have one of our favorite returning callers making an appearance and bringing a little more weird light to the world's do stay tuned. Yes, and and shout out to all truckers who are listening to this right now in a big rig shout out to you. Yes, yes, Sorry about the horns on those Peter belts. So uh you know, I've I've also in a previous life on car stuff. I've also noticed the wimplification of car horns now, and I think it's on purpose. But but be that as it may made a story for another day when we talk about the first flying car that also got approved in your Google Google as you will, sorry to just to your point, but I think the reason for that is probably to keep people from getting into like road rage incidents, because nothing worse than an aggressive horn being laid on and then all of a sudden, before you know it, you're flying into a rage and you're getting out of your car and bludgending someone to death with like a screwdriver. Can you blund it with a screw Dre'll be more of a stabbing, but you know, a little dainty horn harder to trigger that kind of reaction. That's my two cents. I I maybe I yield, I yield the floor. I mean we went down a rabbit hole with that before. Just before begin um with programmable customizable car horn noises. You know, the AUGA is the most popular one, but one time I ran into a guy who had kitted out vintage VW bug so that it when you hit the horn, it played that horrendous sound goat smake that sounds like a person yelling, Oh it's worse. Have you looked it up, their clips of it, it's it's like, oh God, okay, okay, so maybe that will work. Truckers. Let us know if you're allowed to customize your horns. But while you are, while you're composing your email or your call to us, where we're one eight three three std w y t K, we would like to share some stories with you running the gamuts between some very obscure rituals UH conspiracy in the world of music and entertainment. That's pretty well, at least something that I was very invested in for a time, and some more responses to our earlier work on the troubled team industry, as well as what's often called UH conversion therapy, which again I think we've all, or at least I've made pretty strong oppositional stance to this one. So some of these conversations may be familiar to you and to our fellow listeners, but we received something fascinating, something bizarre that you pointed out, Matt, And for people who dig into this stuff constantly, it was surprisingly arduous to find more information, at least on my end. Oh no, you're you're absolutely correct. Let's ahead and listen throw to this as a voicemail that we received a while back, and we'll move on from there after listening to it. Hi, guys, I'm going to be anonymous for this one because this was shared with me and confidentiality. But I just was listening to your episode about curses and I wanna decided to whether or not they're real. But this story that I heard was extremely compelling and also affected me when it was shared with me. So this story is from Alberta. I think I'm not positive about that, but I think it's from Alberta. To help you narrow it down. So there was a woman, and I also don't know the time frame. There was a woman who murdered her husband to use either the act of murder or his body or his blood or something in some type of ritual and was then caught and charged for murder. And she cursed everyone involved with her trial, the police, officers, the lawyers, the judge, whoever else to be and more intimately involved with such a such a trial. And within I think a year maybe less, of her cursing this group of people, one of them got sprain cancer, another got another form of cancer that later killed him. I think some of the police officers also became ill, but I can't remember the details. If you guys wanted to dig into this, I know it's rather light on the identifying detail, but I really can't share um more with you without out a portraying confidence or also just my memory is not fantastic I heard several years ago. But loving your show, guys, keep it up. I'm really happy there's more to listen to every week, and if you find anything, I'd love to hear about it on your show later. Right, Okay, So we got that message and immediately we we were interested. I, you know, personally, was searching everywhere I possibly could online. I was looking through dated articles from you know, that time frame that she gave. It could have been anywhere between five years to a decade to maybe even longer. I searched every year, specifically in Alberta and different parts of Canada, and I couldn't find any court cases, in any legal documents, any even trials that would come close to the details that existed here. UM. I couldn't find any criminal like criminal justice statements even or press releases that would that came anywhere close to this story that was told to us on that listener mail. It's kind of like walking into a blockbuster if anybody remembers those and said, I'm looking for that movie with the person, yeah, you know, or a record store where it's like, you know, the one with the what are they called drums? Is the one with the drums? But Alberta, you're right, Matt. Alberta was in the message from our dear anonymous caller, and I looked as well and was having some difficulty finding it. So I'm reassured if I know you could you were having some obstacles too well. I wasn't satisfied there, so I called this person who left this message, and after getting this person's voicemail, I realized why UM anonymity was important and why perhaps there we couldn't get more details. From that end, we ended up actually connecting. I talked to this person for quite a while, and the two of us together are attempted to track down something some kind of bread crumb that existed online uh and we were unsuccessful. So then it moved to searching for some occurrence where a spouse was killed for a for ritual purposes of some kind. Then there was a trial and a public cursing that occurred within that trial. I know that sounds weird. Maybe it's not something that would be reported on. I couldn't find it anywhere in the world where this specific thing had occurred, but I found something very interesting that maybe associated with it, but I don't think so because of the time frame. So I want to read through this story that I did find that unfortunately comes from a rather dubious source. I'm just gonna read you the headline and brace yourselves. It comes from mirrort code dot uk. Okay, here we go. Wife murders abusive husband in perverted black magic ritual. Okay, it's at least closer to a lot of the other stuff I found. Just with the headline says the suspect tried to hide the smell of the rotting corpse withincense, but later confessed. Okay, already grizzly. I'll take you through some of the details here. The woman's name is Clia Fernando Maximo to Silva, and allegedly she confessed to murdering uh this person, Carlo Kitchelli, who again in the mirror, is reportedly her husband. But then if you look at the at the subtitles on some of the images, he is referred to as her boyfriend, so I'm a little unsure as to what their relationship was. But according to at least the Mirror dot Code dot UK, she essentially enacted revenge on this person that was abusive to her, and she did it in a kind of a weird way. But the big thing is that this was from November two thousand eighteen when it was posted. Um so I don't think this is the case which we're which our caller was referring to. But Ben, you said there there's some Brazilian sources that have slightly better information. Maybe well they have some local sources we found to have a few more details about the case. Interestingly enough, the testimony of clay as teenager, the testimony of her fourteen year old son, is what really sealed the deal, which is distressing to say the least, because for a time he was just considered missing and people go missing every single hour of every single day. She said that she had killed him during a black magic ritual that she had been forced to participate in against her will. She also says that when she met uh Ccello, she met him in Italy, right and when she first met him. He came up to her with like a kid that had crack, cocaine and stuff in it. So he was he was living wild. And it takes us to a troubling point, I think, based on the local reports, which is did she feel as though she was acting in self defense? You know what I mean? Already, like being forced to participate in a magic ritual, being forced to participate in anything is already a very uh, very dangerous proposition, right because you're not consenting to it. Uh. And she did confess. I believe she came forward and said, yes, I did it, but here's why. Uh. And she also said she had been assaulted by this lawyer multiple times. Neighbors were unsuspicious. By the way, if if that, if her son hadn't said anything, then it's possible that if she didn't get away, it could have the case could have continued at least for a while. But when when they found him, he had been dead for thirty nine days. So so there's like a Faulkner aspect to it, a Faulkner sque aspect like rose for Emily. Yeah, that's intense stuff. And again, like if you're trying to find English language news sources on this, you are essentially out of luck unless you're willing to read the Daily Star or Mirror the Mirror dot K. Yeah, it's um, it's a little bit frustrating, Like I want to know more about this, but as I'm going through Google Translate will only take you so far as to getting a full understanding of what's going on. Um, because I don't see anything further, do you see anything been past when charges were initially brought on her, because as of as of this article, shed Silva was in was being held essentially, but no charges have been brought at that time. Yeah, so I without doing the same amount of digging I would do for like a full episode on this, I'm I'm seeing some dead end trails. I need a little more time to teach myself enough Portuguese to figure out all of this. But we do know that back in November two years ago, the police still had not ruled out possible additional suspects. I mean, the idea of magical ritual does open up the possibility that there could have been other people involved to one degree or another. So right now, like as of that point, uh. In an article you can read on Gazette web uh uh investigators were still trying to figure out whether the motive for the murder was revenge or self defense, or whether it was financial. Because this the Italian national, the lawyer had been relying on his family in Italy for money, possibly under pressure from his his relationship in Brazil. So it's sticky, and I think we do need to we do need to find some more local reporting, at least maybe at least nineteen or something. We have to consider too that it may have. You know, it's it's quite possible the trail is going a little cold, just because COVID has massively slowed a lot of court proceedings throughout Brazil and the world, and and just saying, you know, if you are looking through and attempting as we did to find this particular story, you will see several coming out of I see one story from Zimbabwe that I was following up on, one from Ghana, uh, couple other stories. There's one from CBC about a a pagan fire ritual that went wrong and a woman ended up getting badly burned and then perishing from her wounds. But nothing that is nothing that is lining up. So if you somehow know about this story, you know something that occurred and can send us information, whether it is in writing, if you can just call and leave some more information about it. If you can find us, you know, especially some kind of news story, please send it our way. We would love to know more. Maybe it's just uh, maybe it's not real, maybe it's not something that happened and the joke is on us. But if not, please please and you know anything, send us your information. We would love to hear from you. Agreed, And with that we're gonna take a quick commercial break and be right back with some more listener mail. All right, and we're back more listener mail. UM, A few fellas, don't mind. I'd like to do one that's largely going to be uh. Some excerpts from a very very thoughtful listener mail um that an anonymous listener wrote us about conversion therapy. UM. It's quite long, and want to give short shrift to this super thoughtful and confessional telling of of an inside perspective on conversion therapy. As many folks may know, that's the concept of going into a treatment hard quote fingers there that um will remove any same sex attraction, let's say, and it is a heavily based in religion, you really extreme forms of evangelical religion, and it has been described often by those who have experienced it as psychological abuse, gas lighting, you know, a litany of pretty nasty, manipulative techniques that go into what is essentially convincing someone that what they are inherently is bad and is against this religion. And often the folks that allow themselves to be to submit to it. I mean often it can be you know, forced upon them by very strong, you know, heavy handed parents, perhaps at a young age. But a lot of times it's done willingly because there's a lot of guilt and a lot of self loathing wrapped up in the choice to be who you are, who you feel that you are, and what your religion says that thing means in terms of the content of your quality of your character. Uh So, let's just get right into it. On a recent podcast, you mentioned conversion therapy. I had a year's long involvement with various facets of conversion therapy, and while it was not the most malicious type, I was not subjected to any physical abuse, it was far from benign. I am a Mormon growing up in a small town in Idaho, homosexuality was rarely spoken of. When it was, it was in the form of my dad being disgusted by the pride parade taking place in a nearby town, or when it was given as a reason to turn off a movie. But those occurrences were rare. It was mostly unspoken, Hence I did not know I was gay through my teenage years. I actually believed you didn't developer manic feelings for someone until after you started kissing, So I said, I just won't kiss until I'm ready to get married. Um. Looking back, I had many crushes, from my science teacher in seventh grade to the ginger who sat next to me an eighth or my best friend in high school who I just wanted to grow old and live in the house next door with him. Um. I didn't have the vocabulary, so I contorted my views to fit the version of reality I was taught. I did the Mormon mission for two years from ages nine teena twenty one. Here is where I could no longer deny I was different. I was assigned a companion who I was told to be with an e or ear shot seven. It was here, apart from my family and friends, with only my religion that I started a fifteen year journey to acceptance. I had an incident when I was rough housing with an elder. UM. I was broken. I could not deny these were sexual feelings. I told the president of the mission, who sent me to a vetted psychologist, vetted by, of course, the church. UM. I was sure I was going to help. How could I allow myself to become gay? I read books from church authorities on the matter. They all said that this was something that could be overcome. They gave various reasons I was this way. Perhaps my parents didn't show enough affection in front of me. One said masturbation led to homosexuality. If that were the case, there would be a lot more gay people around. Um here and then me links some uh to some of the books that he was, you know, given in this program, all of which are out of print u UM. But I poured over those and many others, and I was sent to a therapist. I didn't want to say what happened. I was ashamed. Eventually I told the man. He then asked me twenty questions to determine if I was indeed gay. He concluded that because I had not had sex with a man, I was not a homosexual. He said, MY problem was the sin of ingratitude for the body God gave me, and if I were grateful, I could overcome it. Even by my confused state. I knew that didn't make sense, but I left our visits resolved to get married and send them man a wedding invitation to show him his faith in my straightness had been correct. So I mean that in and of itself, UM speaks volumes to this kind of what would you say, institutionalized rejection of of something that I think we, most of us hopefully can accept is very much just a part of you know, who people are. I think society has largely evolved beyond this notion that that you know, your sexual livities are choice. UM, but maybe not. I don't know, what do you guys think? They think there's there's definitely more to this and and his journey, you know, to finally accepting this, because he obviously comes full circle UM and has accepted the fact that he is gay. It led to seeing several of these conversion therapists, one of which UM he talks about his experience with just someone basically saying, just ignore it if you focus on it too much you reinforce this pattern, um, and you'll like men more than before. And of course that didn't work. And then he has some links to an article from the Guardian from this Gentleman's practice about the generman's practice in his website. Um. And then of course struggle with depression. And he never, you know, just completely closing himself off to any of these experiences, never experimenting with another man, just like looking at this as an absolute sentence to you know, eternity in hell. Um. And then he he signs up for something called Journey into Manhood and uh. And then that's where he says, and in Ben's best voice, here's where it gets crazy. So this is this is the important part here. Journey into Manhood or j i M as its participants call it, is a seventy two hour experimental weekend. They don't tell you before what will happen, they said. It needs to remain a secret to have the greatest effect. When I signed up, I planned on driving myself so I could easily leave if I didn't like what was going on. I was contacted by the travel coordinator and pressured into car pooling. This is all very red flag, they said, there was limited parking on site. Lie, he says in privacies, and they would really prefer I drive with someone, so I did. In fact, I went in someone else's car so much for being able to leave early. The group driver was so instructed to collect all cell phones and locked them in his car so you would not have any distraction during the weekend. We arrived at the repurposed summer camp in the afternoon. I gave them three postponed postdated checks to cover the six d ney dollar tuition and was given an agreement to sign. Part of the agreement included a five thousand dollar payment to the organization if I spoke ill of it online or revealed any of the secrets of the weekend U and then he links to a medium article that does just that. Uh and he says his experiences were very similar. He mainly did exercises designed to elicit a cathartic response. He remembers the holding when you ask a man to hold you. Sure, that makes you feel good, especially if you're gay, But how does that make you straight? I resisted this, it didn't make sense. They told us to find someone in the group who gave us a charge. I went for a frumpy old man. I had no charge for this is the first time I've been physical with a man. Sure, they said it wasn't romantic, and for me it wasn't, but they were breaking down the barriers for all of us in this instance and others. I felt immense pressure to participate in this holding as a gathering after the weekend. When I refused, the group leader instructed the group of twelve or so men to stare at me for five minutes. I didn't crack. It just seemed weird. So I think this is we should probably use this and and reach out to this listener. And uh, I think this definitely warrants another episode, full episode, you know, on this idea of conversion therapy, because it's this seems very similar to the news article we did, matt Um that you found about these kind of kidnapping, you know, groups that that like trying to whip you know, problem children into shape, you know, but this is even more nefarious, it seems. Yeah, Um, it's very it's very strange. There's a lot here that this person sent to us, Um. And you know, we had discussed possibly covering conversion therapy in a larger context, and I think this email is probably a good reason to do that. This this whole what what was it called journey into Manhoo. It's right, seventy two hour weekend um. That article, there's an article from medium dot com that he sent here, and it is a very interesting psychological thing that is placed on on individuals. To me, it is, uh, it's definitely troubling that this is still occurring because it's not as though these kinds of conversion therapy institutions, camps, programs have gone away. You know, you're you're talking about how Noel Shirley that we've kind of changed, right, But I think on an individual level it's happening, and on a cultural level it the change is happening, but it is still there is a lot of work to be done still to get society as a whole, as one united front to say yes, you know, we we are who we are and that is okay outside of any you know, societal or religious context. Yeah, no, that's right, man. And I again I'm saying I think sometimes we were we exist, not that we're putting blinders on or closing ourselves off from the world, but we exist in a little bit of a bubble with the people that we know and interact with that we all you know, this has never been an issue. And again, like my kid and your kid, and and a lot of kids of you know, friends we have our age are growing up without any preconceived ideas about this stuff. But we have to also remember that they're not growing up in these very heavily dogmatic kind of environments, and that stuff is hard to shake, you know. And you can't blame the kid and then ultimately the adult for struggling with these things when it's all they've ever been shown, you know. And and and the saddest part of this email is is the ending. I mean, he talks about like happy ending, Maybe not really, because it's like he says, i'm I'm, I've he's essentially accepted that he's gay, but he doesn't date men and he still worked within the church. Um, he says, well, I don't date women. I also don't date men. I have a good life if you ignore the lack of romance. UM, I have some amazing friends who know I'm gay and don't care. Would they care if I were not the safe Mormon and dating men? I don't know. I find that heartbreaking. You know, it's like to to say, Okay, I've accepted this thing about myself, but I'm not gonna do anything about it. And and I'm not even sure if my friends would accept me if I did. Um and I would just say to to the this, this listener, you can do better than that, you know, I think, I mean in terms of the people you surround yourself with, I'm not I mean, whatever, who am I to say what your life should be or what your level of comfort should be? This is also complicated, and let me retract that. I just mean, you know, I think it's possible that there's a version of this that you don't have to feel like you're looking over your shoulder or like, what if I'm not accepted because I decide to go and become go further into this thing, you know, which is just I'm making it sound like it's some kind of crazy thing. It's literally just having romantic attachment to your chosen gender. You know, It's just I mean, I just it's it's hard for me to say that's all all there is and all there needs to be and but but again it's not in my life. But it just makes me, Hey, I wanted to get into one more thing that's written in this email that we received from our listener. UM. And he's speaking about after going to this seventy two hour thing that they call a journey into manhood. Uh. He says, there are holding nights where you get together and sign a paper never to reveal what happens. Then you all hold each other. We touched on that briefly, but this is like an actual event based around this practice. But and this is after you're done with that seventy two hour camp. Essentially, there's like it's an organization that you are now working with and have going to meetings essentially. UM. And what he's saying is that it's a breeding ground for grooming and this is really the stuff they don't want you to know. In this older men would call up young men to quote get their needs met, which means holding. And while you can always say no, you're taught that this is important for you to provide this for others. This person would see sixty year olds calling nineteen year olds for holding nights, and he just saying that it's insidious because it is sold to you in one way, this is a means to cure the ailment and I'm giving massive quotation marks here that this program is attempting to cure to work on when in actuality it appears to be something very very different. And he goes on to say that what you don't realize while you're going through this program is that what you're doing is actually just cuddling with someone in the romantic feelings are very natural when you're when you're in that position, when when you're when you're taking that action, and it's just this very strange thing, this journey into manhood thing that I think we just I want to look into it further. I want to understand what is actually going on there UM, because it does feel it does feel very very odd to me. Yeah, I agreed. This is first off, anonymous, thank you for writing to us with UM. But the heroine, as we said earlier, crucially important account. It's often said that we do not know how we affect people. We never will we'll never meet, you know. And one of the reasons that this is a personal episode. Honestly, one of the reasons I've been quiet during this segment is because I have some again very strong personal opinions and opposition to these kind of practices and do want to be objective and will do so in a future episode, But anonymous on behalf of everyone who is listening to this and may find themselves in a similar situation. Uh, thank you, because you are doing a tremendous service by by sharing your experience and and it couldn't have been easy to tell us this story, to write this email. I think it's important for us to kick a few statistics to your earlier point and all about the possibility of living in a bubble. As of June eighteen, states have banned healthcare professionals from using conversion therapy, but it's difficult to prosecute because it comes under a couple of different names, you know. And again that's not anywhere near a majority of states just in this country that have banned it. Uh. This stuff has been it's active in some form for over a century. Uh Uh. I don't want to get lost in numbers again. But there there's a wealth of information out there that indicates how damaging this can be. So we are doing an episode about this. We need to hear from you. If you are okay sharing, then we will keep an anonymity if you wish. Uh. But in the interim. For anybody who is struggling at this time, we would highly recommend checking out something called the Trevor Project, founded in it's the leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to l g B t Q people under the age of You can call them directly whenever you're you're hearing this, you can like our number is well and good, please call us. But if you need help, call this number first one eight six six four eight eight seven three eight six. Thanks Ben. I think that's super helpful and something that many folks could certainly benefit from. UM. And and again thanks Anonymous for the incredibly informative UM email. And I think there's a lot more to unpack here, uh moving forward, So let's do that in a in a larger episode I think in the future. And in the meantime we'll take a quick break and then have a little more listener mail. And we have returned for one more piece of listener correspondence. Anonymous, you wrote in and asked us a question that I think, Uh, I think it's been on all three of our minds, but not I think you and I had speculated about this at length in days of Yore. Oh yeah, let's let's hear it. Hey, guys, I listened to your show quite a bit. Uh, big big fan. I've called a couple of times with some pretty ridiculous stuff, but I actually do have a pretty cool um you know, just like something that that's bothered me for a long time. Uh, not necessarily bothered, but this is an open ended question. Uh, with the death of Notorious the I g. It seems like it just happened and it was all there was a lead and then it was just like case closed. And I kind of had done my own little bit of research you days ago, and it's so much bigger than just a quick Google search. I mean, there's so many conspiratorial things out there, and um, people who are very passionate about, you know, what they believe actually happened, you know, from an inside job with the l A p D to rival gang stuff, And it would just be cool to listen to a full breakdown of your guys's opinion. Anyway, That's all I got doculated. I don't care if you hear my voice, but I'm just laughing because I'm so thankful that you included that last bit. They're anonymous that we could use your voice. So that's my cat leave it in anonymous. Thank you so much for calling in. You're asking us about one of the legends in both the world of hip hop and the world of conspiracy, the death of Christopher Wallace, also known as Biggie Smalls, also known as the notorious b I g uh In. On March nine, Wallace was fatally shot at a stoplight in Los Angeles. At the time, the murder was thought to be a culmination of an ongoing feud between East and West Coast musical actives, right because Tupac Shakorp had been murdered just six months before, and this in this point, in this fertile conspiratorial soil, uh there were many people already arguing that Tupac had faked his death and was living in Cuba. And you'll see people arguing that today, especially the with the um obsessive parscene of lyrics and symbols as interpreted through album covers that includes me, By the way, what's up I think Tupacs of the lot in Cuba? Do you think so? Well? I thought it for a really long time, like I thought he was going to come back in seven years because of the whole seven day theory. So after the seven years past, I was like, Okay, maybe he actually is did or maybe he's just never coming back. I think we were all kind of holding out for for that seven year window. It was very much what if window. Uh. Yes. Interestingly enough, we haven't seen as much conspiratorial stuff related to B I G. As we have with Tupac Shature, but there's a very you know, there's a very American genre of conspiracy. We don't like to let our celebrities die, right, Kurt Cobain, Elvis Pressley, numerous actors of yesteryear. Um, I guess to start off this conversation, I would ask, you know, what do you guys remember when Notorious B I G Got shot? We're all pretty young, I think, sure, yeah. In my mind, I want to say it was like ninety four ninety five, but I think it was later. It was like more like ninety seven, you know, yep, yep, March N. I do remember, like, maybe not as viscerally because this has nothing to do with anything, but I just wasn't as much of a hip hop fan at that time yet, and so it wasn't as much of my radar. Of course, it was a big story. Um, I did not know the music of either Tupac or Biggie at the time. Um, and so like something like Kurt Cobain's suicide was much more on my radar than that. But because of the way it was picked up by the zeitgeists and became instantly this fodder for you know, foul play and conspiracy talk, it's certainly caught my interest pretty quickly. Yeah, it was certainly a very very big deal when it occurred. Um. Similarly, my musical tastes were elsewhere at the time. Um, like I told you guys, it was all Christian rock, all all day, all all all the time. And uh fortunately unfortunately Notorious b I G and Tupac we're both speaking above my head at the time. But it was, Yeah, it was a big deal. And I think, I think what so visceral is, like the MTV news reports and how much was made in that realm early on after after both deaths, and there was so much, there was so much mystery to it. But at the same time it felt like, oh, these are two major figures within the realm of this new rap world where there is there is fighting on either end of the United States about you know who rules, who rules this new space? That it felt almost mythical in a way, like right off the bat when when the news broke and I think that really that really led to the speculation. I don't know, that has just continued to grow and grow and grow and grow. Yeah, I think it's astute. A Greek tragedy with larger than life characters and their own misfortunes, writ large in a way that is to a degree anomalous with the struggles the US culture overall encounters at the time. You know, it shows how one conspiracy leads inevitably to the next. L A p D at that time and for years afterwards, was cartoonishly corrupt, and they were in charge of the investigation, right and and consider that in two thousand and three, Uh the a friend of Sugar Knights who will be familiar with anyone familiar with this story, named wardel Pucci was was suspected of being the trigger man, if not the ultimate power behind the bullet in the death of b I. G Uh In two thousand three, he was murdered, which, of course, if you think there's something's more sketchy to the story that then, of course, that seems like evidence of a greater conspiracy. Interestingly enough, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but so Biggie was shot uh in March nine. Part of the reason the conspiracies grew it was because Biggie's autopsy report was not released until December of two thousand twelve, fifteen years after his murder. Wow. Wow, I wonder what what caused it to come out? Then? It must have been it must have been some people looking into it, um, some researchers who are maybe working on a project for you know, entertainment purposes, film or television, doing a documentary something. I wonder if they uncovered it and got it released through freedom of information or something. That's fascinating. It's a good question, you know. And just like the just like, as you said, the Greek tragedies, right, Tupac and Biggie both used to be friends and then uh, and then they met with such untimely ends. The largest conspiracy theories about this are typically going to implicate Sugar Night directly as the orchestrator, the composer of this um this terrible event. But at this point, both murders Chubox, s Core and Notorious b I G remain officially unsolved, which which is bizarre because you would think in the case of this level of celebrity, this level of renown, that they would there would be much more effort put into figuring out what happened. And again that's out to say there wasn't effort put into it, but that is to say that that effort officially uh seems to have met with bub kiss uh. There were multiple civil lawsuits against l A p D, against you know, local authorities. There have been numerous works documentaries serious journalism, such as the Murder Biggie Smalls and two thousand so before the autopsy was released, where journalist Cathy Scott said that the record companies might have had a dirty hand to play in this, which sounds nuts, but think about it. They both of these people are prodigious artists. They have a catalog such that they're continuing to make albums posthumously. Right, did the record companies figure that the rappers were worth more dead than they were alive? That's troubling. Yeah, yeah, that is really scary. And then that's a terrifying actual calculation when something terrible happens to someone who is rising in popularity. If they die, then those works will You'll never get another album, right, so then immediately the price of those albums skyrocket. That that is as an awful It's it's the same way like you have like you know, Prince passing away or David Bowie passing away, and all of a sudden their back catalog is just selling like hotcakes for two people that maybe never even cared or like you know, gave them the time of day. It's the same thing with that. When there's like tragedy behind something or some level of mystery, especially, it just reinvigorates people's imagination and their interest in it. And then you're right, those become like these sacred documents that yeah, you could argue, well, doesn't it make more sense than to just keep making more product or does it make more sense to like, you know, sanctify these handful of records that then will like sell great forever and all time. I don't know. It seems like a stretch to me, the notion that the record labels in some way orchestrated this to manufacture maybe manufacturing beef, but certainly not like having well, I don't know they were there. They were essentially both of these labels, especially Death Row, you know they were were were a criminal organizations. I mean you have to hear stories about Sugar Night intimidating people, you know, pistol whipping people in public. I mean he is in prison for I think running over a gentleman with his car um and it's on you know, security cameras. So it's certainly like when we say the record label, we're not talking about a bunch of like, you know, executives in a suite at Capital Records. These labels had genuine beef that came from East coast West coast criminal rivalry as well. It does feel like a stretch, but at the same time in I don't know, I'm just looking into posthumous albums now and now. I now, I'm just gonna go down that rabbit hole for a while and find out what kinds of albums came out after the death of an artist by a label or a trust or you know, some some entity that is representing an artist that died. I quite enjoy that idea, Matt, because it could go across genres of music. But I would I would say we don't have to go to an extreme level of a record company purposely orchestrating murder. They could have, Uh, they could have done other things that are sort of in between those extremes. They could have known something was probable or possible and decided not to intervene for one reason or another. Uh. They could have just you know, accelerated this beef to sell records and then later been unable to control the escalation of it. Uh. And then, of course, you know, there's the idea that they could alive. The problem with that in the case of B I. G is that you remember a second ago I mentioned the release of the autopsy in two thousand twelve in December, the l A p D argued that that was to help generate new leads on the case, and the lawyer for the estate was livid about this. Perry Sanders Jr. At the time came out publicly and said, I thought you would like this quote. It's juicy. Sanders Jr. Said, what legitimate lead could be stimulated by releasing an autopsy that says Mr Wallace was shot? When everyone knows that, why don't they release some of the clues they have? So the idea here is that there's something else l A p D still has, uh years and years later that they haven't released. Do you guys think that's likely? Yeah, if if I'm not mistaken, there in the in this slow Burned season three UH podcast series on you know, the murder of of G and tupac Um and the way those two crimes connected, there is some kind of revelation that they come out with if I'm not mistaken, And I know there's a lot of uh stuff that the l a p D covered up, and there are some kind of tell all books from former l a p D cops that that do shed some light onto that stuff, but I would need to to dig into it a bit more personally, well, you know, just on this subject, you guys, sorry, if you're just going back to the posthumus records. I did not realize that Life After Death from Notorious b I G. Was released two weeks, like around almost exactly two weeks after he was shot, and the one from that came out, Uh yeah, the Killuminati album that came out like two months after he was shot and killed, and the cover of it has him hanging on a cross. Yeah, I don't. I mean it is God, you could totally see why this ben You're it's right on the money about like why this thing has just been It's gotten a life of its own. Really interesting though that they released it under maca Velli and not Tupac Shakoor. I mean, it's clearly him. I mean it's an image of him, like I said, hanging on the cross, but it does not say Tupac on the on the cover, it says marca Velli. Did you know Chris Gaines is Garth Brooks? That he's a master? Speaking of which, there's a pretty good behind the music about this too that has some good interviews with a lot of the folks from the time, like well Kim and some of the folks that were like witnesses and so I mean that that's like hard news or anything, but there is some interesting detail if you can find that on YouTube. And uh, I know we're running a time and didn't get to spend much with this one state, but uh, in the interim, yes, there is a there is a treasure trove of valuable information here. This case does remain unsolved. I'd love to do a deeper dive, full episode on it. So FBI agent Phil Carson. If you are a fan of stuff they don't want you to know, please reach out to us and let us let us know your take, and if you're okay doing an interview, we'd love to hear from you. We'd also love to hear from everyone who has hopefully survived the conversion therapy UH industry here in the US and abroad. And we'd like to hear more information about what happened to clear the self confessed murderer of this Italian lawyer, because it looks like, as far as we could tell, the trail went cold in or contact us and just let us know a brand new idea. No matter what, we are always happy to hear from you. We try to be easy to find. You can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter, you can find us anywhere. Basically. Yeah, you can also give us an actual call and be a part of the listener mail um the audio portion. You know. 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