From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Null, and they called me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission Controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. A quick disclaimer as we get in today's show, fellow conspiracy realist, this episode contains at times graphic descriptions of violent crime, and as such may not be suitable for all listeners. We are not diving into today's story alone. Instead, we are accompanied, very fortunately accompanied by Jeff Keating of filmmaker and podcaster, founder of Doghouse Pictures and the creator of numerous shows and award winning documentaries as such as Living Is Winning as well as his podcast Fight Night. Today, we're excited to have Jeff here in digital person to tell us a little bit more about his newest show, Pee Wee Gaskins Was Not My Friend, which delves deep into the story of South Carolina's most notorious mass murderer and someone many people, surprisingly enough, have have not heard about. Welcome to the show, Jeff, Thanks so much for coming, Jeff. What's up? Guys. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it. Jeff. It's interesting you and I've worked together on a couple of other projects in the past, including the show that Ben mentioned, Fight Night, which is in and of itself, a really cool show about this massive kind of like underworld heist that takes place here in Atlanta where we're all recording. You're in Atlanta native as well. Um, and it takes place on the night of the big Muhammad Ali comeback fight. Um. Yeah, what kind of a different direction for Peewee Gaskins was not my friend? Um, it really is another story of kind of the noir you know, aspects of the South, but very much it's just a story about a truly cold blooded psychopath, um that many people have not heard of. How how would you describe Peewee Gaskins two people that maybe aren't familiar with his twisted legacy? Well, the name itself, because first of all, I was like, you knowl And and Team. I didn't know much about pee Weee myself would rarely even heard of. I mean, I'm a true crime fanatic. I've covered this obviously for you know, fifteen twenty years. As far as just really enjoying stories, now, I tend to lean more towards a mob true crime. That's my I guess if you there's a sub genre within true crime, that's that's my favorite. But I also love serial killers, you know, the show Mine Hunters on Netflix and some other of things like that. I really enjoyed that kind of stuff. So Peewee. When I first heard about him, the name obviously grabbed me. And then when I found out his stature and how small he was, that was kind of interesting to see. And once I looked into who this guy was a little bit more and seeing again just how small he was and how high pitched his voice was, it was just a weird dichotomy between the violent crimes that he committed and who he was now. Again, oftentimes, you know, somebody could have a big chip on their shoulder or could be pushed to the limit for certain things. But whenever you have somebody so small with such a high pitch voice, you you you usually don't put those two things together. So when I started to understand his crimes and who he was. That was very interesting. And then I realized who this guy was, which was a master manipulator, a trailer park kingpin of sorts, somebody that had traveled with the carnival ring for years and the people that traveled with him seemed to be a good fit for what he was doing. Car thefts, you know, petty thefts, things like that. So very interesting character and just to stay in this realm before we even get into the crimes of Donald Peewee Gaskins, I wanna ask you about a story that was told in the latest episode of the podcast, came out this past Monday. I think it was called Loved Her to Death. And there's a story in there where a former employer of Peewee's tells a story about Peewee strength. And the story is about something with a tire, like a truck tire. Do you remember that? Can you tell us that story? Yeah? I do, and and and it's hard to because the employer did mention that, and so I think it had something to do with like physically maybe getting the rim off. Now, again, I'm not a big car guy, you know, one of those some people could change tires. I might changed one before, but I think it had something to do with like getting the rim off of the tire itself using very little tools or minimal tools, and the way that that employer described it, the strength to do that is very, very difficult, even with the tools themselves. So yes, I agree with you, and I don't even know if we put this story in as well. Matt, but he also was known to like lift huge tons or things over his head, so his strength was massive especially for him. He also had experience with a great experience with automobiles in general, right, he had familiarity. He also trained himself to have a very powerful karate child, that's right, by by basically using the metal end of his bed and hitting it repeatedly, and I mean hundreds or thousands of times to build up I guess that muscle or whatever it was. I think we may even cover that story more a little bit in this upcoming episode. But but yeah, and then again, guys, you know you've got to imagine you're in reform school and all these things. Early on, you're probably beat up for your status, so you're you're just building a toughness. A nail's tough exterior throughout your whole life, you know, because of again your environment. You know what you were um exposed to early on, the beatings, all of that stuff. This guy was no joke. I want to expand on the what you brought up, Matt, the idea of anecdote here, Jeff. In the course of the show, the listener encounters multiple people who have had personal experience with Gaskins, and one thing that's fascinating before we even get to the first episode, just overall, one thing it was fascinating to me is that many of these people come to some surprising agreements about the nature of gaskins character. And one thing that really stood out was, oddly enough, people would talk about how he was at times apparently charming and charismatic, you know, and some folks said he was, you know, a monster and human flesh, and other folks said that they said, like he was actually he could seem really friendly if you didn't know who you were talking to, and that because that surprised me, I wanted to ask you in the course of this story, what surprised you. Were there any things that really really surprised you about the way people talked about Gaskins or his interactions. Well, here's what I do again. A lot of people approach stories in different ways. I'm not an investigative reporter, and there's a lot of people that do true crime that have either that background or approach it that way. I approach it more of a story that I'm interested in. I'm a guide for the audience. Sometimes I have some unknown things that come my way that I just want to explore that I think the audience will be interested in as well. And so with this particular guy in this case, when I first heard about it, and you, guys, I'm sure imagine this as well, it's like, this is a serial killer or a mass murderer. How how can you fall for this behavior whatever it is. But then you hear over the past of many of these famous serial killers or mass murders, how charming they are, how they can ingratiate themselves into communities or families or groups or whatever it is. And so I thought, I put myself back in these guys shoes years ago, and I was like, you know, there's no way you would fall for that. But I was never in front of this guy. I was never um faced with his with his charm or manipulation or the power of this guy staring at you from across the table, or you know, making a deal with you, whatever it was. So you think it may be one way, but you've never faced this guy personally, and so as much as I tried to imagine that, I really had to listen to all these people that actually had faced and come in contact with him and realize, Man, this guy was a snake charmer. This guy was a manipulator. And and you may think that you could um fight his uh you know, charming abilities, but most oftentimes you could not. Can't out slither a snake, right, This is something I thought a lot about with the very first episode, where you do something fascinating this This isn't a spoiler. We'll hear it, folks as soon as you tune in. We don't start in a linear way, right, We don't start at Gaskin's birth or his childhood or his first crime, but with another story that takes place while Gaskin is already incarcerated. What what inspired you to approach it from this angle particularly, we needed to basically have a set up for the show of one of the main murders, which you see in that first one is Rudolph Tyner and how it really connects to all of the past murders and the unwitning accessory of that last murder, and how he or she is going to play a part in this entire podcast. So it was unusual the way we did it. It's almost kind of like a standalone story, but we felt to book in this podcast with that particular crime and murder, and as you'll see at the very end, how it all plays out. It was the perfect way to tie it all in. You know, it's interesting. I think it's probably best left for folks to experience this themselves without going into the details of this crime. But let's just suffice it to say that, uh Gaskins, in a very very clever way, orchestrates essentially a hit on a man that he doesn't like from within prison. And that's a key, I think to Gaskin's personality a man that he doesn't like. Gaskins had a code. He he didn't He wasn't like other serial killers who killed out of some perverse fetish or some sort of like drive to just feed this hunger. He was more like a mafiosa or something he'd be bumped people off who he didn't feel met his standards or in some way, you know, had wronged him, or he wanted to get rid of a rival. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, his personal code and what are some of the things that might have put you or I on Peewee's hit list Before I get to that. It's a good question. You tapped on something. I'm a big fan of subcultures. So like in Fight Night, the subculture was hustlers of the early seventies in in Atlanta and then traveling you know, up to New York and down to Miami, but really getting into the world and the subculture of these hustlers. So in this particular story, it's basically trailer park kingpins and and traveling carnivals and the people that were in these traveling carnivals and the type of work environment that they were in the way they became family in an unusual way. So so that was interesting for me to explore that. And then Peewee's relationship to that. Noel was basically his code was a couple of things. Betrayal was something that he despised, I think the most out of anything one of his codes are. Part of his codes was you don't talk outside the circle, and that was I love this phrase. I'm not sure if Jim are one of our main characters or Pee Wee came up with this, but it was called jaw in you don't you don't go jawing to the police or to other members in the community. And I assume that means you know, speak out of turn. So so jowen was one of the big things of his code. Another thing Noel that was interesting was he was a protector supposedly of children and younger people for certain things profanity, uh, certain behaviors around them. Now again he goes on to kill some of these younger people, and in fact a lot of the people that ended up falling to his knife or gun were younger, especially women. But for some reason there was a protector side. So profanity was a big thing I heard. He rarely, ever, if ever cussed uh and hated when people did it, maybe in front of him, but specifically in front of children. That was another part of his code. But the biggest one knowal I think would be the betrayal meaning do not cross him, and and specifically the jaw and don't talk about me or my crimes or what we're doing to anybody else. You know, it's interesting you say that, Jeff, because we see some of those I guess a way to vastly understated is we see some of those moral dichotomies or contradictions in a lot of extremely disturbed people, even to the point you've seen it in fiction like uh Annie in Misery, right, who also hates cursing, and Stephen King's Misery. This leads me to think, um, you know, when we're talking a little bit about the mind of someone who's a mass murder or serial killer. Another interesting thing is that Gaskins, like other folks like Henry Lee Lucas and so I, was prone to bouts of embellishments, exaggeration, and investigators suspect in many case, in some cases outright lying. Uh Before he was put to death by the State of South Carolina back about fifty eight years old, he had he made statements claiming, you know, I've committed many more murders. I've committed more than a hundred murders, right, How how many do how? It's a very strange I mean, usually psychologists say that's a push for notoriety. But my question for you is, when you were speaking with people familiar with the case, how how much weight do investigators put in his statements? There you've got, we've got one person you speak with who says everybody who says. When he was getting calls from people in as far away as Australia to talk about UH, to talk about Gascon's crimes, they kept trying to get him to like agree with these higher numbers, and he refused to. So what's the truth? Do we know or will we ever know? We don't know. And that's what I find so fascinating. And I think with any of these true crime cases, unless maybe you've got a hundred witnesses that see exactly what's going on, you have forensics evidence, you have witnesses, you have investigators, but unless you're actually there for these murder themselves, we just don't know. So I would say ben as a whole, that most people thought it came in around eleven or twelve murders, and that the legend of all those additional murders was us that of sometimes people talking of reporters covering stories, of people gossiping around a community, and as you know, things grow from there. So I would say, as a whole, the people that we talked to and the investigators and attorneys and prosecutor stuff, felt it was around a dozen and the rest became legend. Now again, the legend can sometimes become so powerful and become so youthful, even for a serial killer as well, But we don't know, Ben, and I always find that a good place to rest because it allows us to examine that the evidence ourselves and make a decision based on what we hear. You know, what do we think, you know, based on all this stuff and these stories and this transcripts and stuff, where do we think the truth lies? You know? If the other forgive my my ignorance here, Jeff, but I I am imagined that some of those legendary things, or maybe even things that actually happened that just can't be proven, occurred when he was traveling with you know, the carnival or you know something, some things occurred that we just no one will ever know about. And I just wondered if you thought maybe that was even a possibility. I think that's very fair to say, Matt, because again, if you're talking about somebody that can do this once and has been accused and convicted of these crimes and then ultimately executed, which we know he was we don't know what he was doing all the time or things that could have been left. And you know, if you're having these bodies buried in burial fields in one place, what's going on somewhere else? And we don't know if he gets angry at one guy that somebody didn't cover years ago. So I would assume guys, wouldn't you imagine that there's cases like that all over the country in the world. We're just gonna take a little break here a word from our sponsor, but will be right back, and we're back. Jeffy. We talked to a good bit already about his kind of outsized, uh mythical persona that really was this kind of disconnect from his actual stature and like the like he said, it's kind of like high pitched voice, which I think probably caused a lot of people to underestimate him. Um, and he was also a master manipulator, and that he was even able to kind of get the cops off his trail literally just like by kind of gives throwing them this like diversion, like there's a there's a part where he's like working under a truck or something and the cops looking for him in connection to him a disappearance, and he just says, no, Peewee Gascon's here, basically exactly. Yeah. Literally, it's just like the most Basically, he just had this confidence. I think that was infectious, and I think that's what led to this sort of cult of personality you see with this weird ragtag band of characters that he sort of had under his way. He almost is this kind of weird cult leader figure in some ways. Um. But your friend uh and also um, someone who is a very important part of the story. Dr Jim Batty had a really interesting relationship with Peewee he both academically and personally. Um. And he really gives an incredible perspective on a lot of these stories and the podcast. Can you speak a little bit about how you got connected up with Dr Batty and what their relationship was. Yes, So, a colleague of mine and good friend, Courtney Dufreeze knew the Batty family and suggested, based on the fact that he knew Jim, Dr Batty had done all these interviews with Pee Wee, maybe a great podcast and a great way to explore a different angle of somebody that actually sat across the table from him for Dred interviews, and so I was like, well, this would be, first of all, just a fascinating guy to talk to. So when I was able to finally meet Jim and his wife, Anita, who's in the podcast as well, I really was interested and wanted to explore the story of two different men, both who grew up very close to each other geographically. I think it was eighty miles apart, Both who were very close in age. I think they were two to three years apart. Both who had worked in some of the same places, even though at different times, a Campbell suit factory that they came to know once those interviews started, and how they ended up with such different lives again, jim family manned uh literary professor, ordained minister, and then pee Wee Gaskins a mass murderer family as well. But you know, six different wives if I'm not mistaken, not sure how many kids, but he had a few. And it drew me to one of the things that I'm always interested in exploring, which is nature or versus nurture. So Jim has this beautiful, lovely upbringing. Pee Wee supposedly had a very rough, tough childhood, maybe some abuse, some sexual abuse that happened to him. So Jim wanted to explore this as well as did I. If if Peewee's upbringing is different, is if he's loved as a child, if he you know, is not sent to these tough reform school early on, if he's given a full education, does he wind up different? And and I always I'm fascinated and exploring that question. I'm so glad you see that, Jeff, because this leads us to another commonality that experts perceive in mass murderers, uh, serial criminal sexual assaulters in the like, which is that, uh many many serial murders seem to have these horrific childhoods. Right, and we know that Gaskin's criminal career started at a very young age with a trouble trio they called themselves, I think somewhere in like eleven to thirteen years old. Uh. And I have a two part question, but but it's a tough question to really get our minds around. I don't know where will fall on the on the nature versus nurture debate, but it felt like some of the people that you encounter in the course of your journey have come to a conclusion that some folks are simply born and evil. Did you run into when you're talking with people? Did anybody bring up this nature versus nurture argument? And if so, how did they approach it? How did they grapple with this? Well? I feel Jim definitely felt there was a what's the right word. I feel like Jim thought that there was a direct core correlation between the two and he felt pretty strongly that if p we had a loving family or different upbringing, that his life would have been different. I feel some of the reporters and some of the I don't know if we did any psychologist, but I feel there was some other people that felt the same way Jim did. There may have been a couple of people that leaned towards born evil, but I really think after they looked at the whole life, that it was just this was an evil man and they couldn't put their fingers on exactly where that all began. When you go back to your first part of the question, been my thought is from the fifteen twenty thirty years of exploring these stories, I can't find one serial killer or murderer did didn't have a bad upbringing. I'm still trying to find that one. In fact, I was just laughing about this the other day. The one movie I think it was with Nicolas Cage and it was called eight Millimeter, was a thing about that. And ultimately, at the end, even though he was in this dark, crazy world, the antagonist of the movie The Killer says, I had a loving and and I didn't believe it. It ruined the movie for me because I was like, No, every study we've explored has pointed to a traumatic past. It felt like the script writer said, this is the twist, you know, And I think it felt that way. I agree with you if you felt that way, because those that commonality is so it occurs at such a distressingly frequent level, you know. I I also am trying to I've been trying to find someone who had like a happy home life quote unquote whatever that means. And I think you're on the money there, Jeff. And listen, trauma is a very serious thing, guy. And whether it be war, whether it be abuse as a child, um, you know, psychological, it could be physical or mental, but especially early on and then again I think most scientists or doctors will agree with this. When you have something traumatic, it could affect your life from there on out. Either you have to deal with it and you have to recover from it, or it can affect your behavior moving forward. And so if you're really having you know, beatings or mental abuse or whatever it may be early on, I can see how that affects the line to these stories of these mass murderers and serial killers. Well, you know. And again, I keep going back to the contradictions of Peewee's life because there are a lot of stories where he seems to be he seems to do something out of just the kindness of his heart for someone. In this latest episode, there's a story about an elderly woman that comes to him with a problem with her transmission, and like, it's incredible what Pee Wee ends up doing? Could you just tell that? Because I think that's really like speaking to when we're talking about good versus bad, versus nature and nurture. Like the fact that this guy who has done these horrible things we know of already and this elderly woman says I need help with my transmission, what does he do? He ends up stealing a transmission from a car that is just like hers, and then putting that transmission into her car, fixing it for this lovely senior citizen. I think he barely charged her anything, you know, maybe a few bucks. But that's that's such a great example because and and no, you were talking about this earlier about moral code. This moral code is so gray. It's like he does something illegal to do something good. And I think they're the balance of pee Wee. And many of his actions showed that throughout his life. So he felt, hey, I'm gonna do what I need to to help this lady, even though it's gonna be you know, in illegal activity or taking from somebody else. And pee Wee was notorious for deeds and behaviors like that. Oh you know. And there's just one last story, guys, and I'll stop talking about this. There's Um, a young woman who moves in with him and his wife at the time. I can't remember exactly which wife it was. I'm so sorry I can't recall that right now, Jeff. But um a young woman who moves in with a very tiny child that's super sick, Like the child is extremely sick. But pee Wee ends up using his funds and his time and effort to nurse that child like back to health. Um and it's not his child, it's just some it's another woman's child. And to me that is so strange and and and it does make me wonder about if it's him doing something getting all psychologists here, doing something for another child that maybe wasn't done for him, or like a kindness shown to another child that wasn't done for him. But he's also a child killer. So anyway, my brain is exploding thinking about all of that. I don't even know I have a question here for you. Well, it's hard. It's hard to wrap your head around all of those stories. So that's a good example. There's other ones that will let the audience here within the podcast where he literally you know, cares for babies or toddler's or you know, young children, but a lot of these people or young babies or children become his victims. So it's really hard to wrap your head around all of this. And again we're not in this world of you know, underneath this trailer part Kingpin and this guy that was with people working in the traveling carnivals who I hear have transient lives to begin with, and maybe not have the connection to family except for the people working in the carnivals themselves. So it's hard to understand this sometimes, Matt, it really is. It is, But I also think there's a lot of parallels. And one of my first questions I mentioned, I really see a connect action between him and like the mafia, like the code of Omerta. You know, like your your family until the moment you break that code and then you're dead to me, literally and and figuratively. Um And I people probably stick of hearing about it, but you know, The Sopranos is one of my favorite shows, and I think Tony Soprano is a really interesting antihero because he nurtures so many people while also on the other side, ruining so many lives. Um And he you know, he will be this advocate for people until they crossed him in the wrong way, and then he won't think twice because he feels justified in doing it because they broke the code. Um and And to me, that's that's what pee he's doing. Um. He's obviously a terrible person, but also has this you know, nurturing side. He's a very complex character. I think you know, and he needs to retain the power and authority and also avoid prison. So there's many things that pee Wee was constantly doing within these relationships that were important to him. I've got to maintain my power. If somebody knows about a crime that I've committed, I am going to implicate them in that crime so that they become an accessory. He was brilliant at that. Okay, fine, you're gonna jaw about me, I'm gonna take you down with me. And so that was something that was constantly thinking about. That plays into our unwitting accessory in our story, and how pee Wee pounced on weaknesses of people use them to leverage things that he needed within his authority and within the power circles that he ruled. So that was very important Old and how he used that behavior. I think you know to that point that that is one of the primary explanations for how UH person's criminal career like this could last so long. You know, he's in and out of the system, but he keeps slipping away. I do want to go back to the conversation you and Matt were having, Jeff, because I think I think it really raises an important point for storytelling overall as well, which is maybe a little bit abstract, but one thing that is always at the front of my mind when we're exploring violent tales things of this nature on on our show on Stuffing. What you know is how to accurately depict a crime, a criminal or a conspiracy without glorifying the villains or exploiting the tragedies of the victims and your your work, I think threads this line perfectly. You don't shy away from Gascon's crimes, and you shouldn't, but you're also pointing out these other things, these things that we've called contradictions, and you're giving voice to the survivors, you know, the investigators, people involved and more. How how do you, as a creator navigate that line between like telling this story with the accuracy and fullness that deserves, while also making space for the human lives that have been impacted by this criminal. We made a conscious effort early on my writing team, which was Jim Roberts, Courtney to Freeze and Terry James, and we knew that we wanted to shy away from going too deep into the gory details and really be able to focus on the victim's story. We felt it was important that the audience get to know these families, young girls, toddler's whoever might have been a victim, so they understand the seriousness of these crimes and the lives that Pee Wee was able to stuff out. And again, we were conscious as we were writing and putting this together trying to get the balance because some of these are obviously very scary stories, and we wanted to pull the audience in to the visual scenes that were happening, but obviously not focused too much obviously on the act itself, but on the result, which was the victims and the lives that were ruined. Yeah, we'll put And I just want to say personally, I appreciated that, and I found it impressive. UM, And I think that's something that will uh that that a lot of people who listen to the show are going to recognize. So I guess that's less of a question than a little bit of fan mail. Sorry about that, Job's okay, we'll take somethingmail. We've actually got some responses that have UM talked about that as well, And you know, Nolan, I discuss this. You know, with these true crime podcasts, there are topics and things that the audience likes to hear. We wanted to make sure that we covered those topics, but there was deep dives obviously that we wanted to explore as well. Again, personally, I loved the subculture which I thought the audience would like, which was the trailer parks and the traveling carnivals. Then you got on Jim side, who's doing these interviews. You've got a literary professor across the table from a mass murderer. And so again the balance between these personalities, how they perceived life, how they perceived family, how they perceived relationships, was fascinating to me. So I really wanted to get into the gym and pee wee story, and I thought the audience would really enjoy that because it's a different angle two pee wee gascons that people had heard. I mean, no one heard this story before, because again Jim hadn't really publicly talked about these fifty plus interviews he had. I thought the audience would love that. Your your audience does love that. Jim and Anita, they're they're fantastic in the show. I want to ask you about somebody who would have said I think and maybe correct me if I'm wrong here. Who would have said, Peewee Gaskins is my friend A man named Walter Neely, Can you just tell us a little bit about that character who Walter is a tough one? So I will say you could define Walter as Peewee's friend and right hand man. I think for a stretch Walter would say that Peewee is his best friend. And again I just wasn't there in these relationships. But I feel like pee Wee knew who Walter was. A slower guy, potentially a patsy, somebody who he could possibly push some of these crimes and convictions on at some point, A guy he knew that may not be mentally tough enough if things came down to the wire where he could rely on him. But he had some almost like savant like abilities he did he did. I mean, especially when you're talking about again, you know, petty crimes, uh, stealing Dealon's cars exactly mechanically cars, and it just a master of that. So I mean, again, when we always talk about intelligence, I mean, you know we're talking about book smarts and we're talking about street smarts. I mean, Walter had some definite intelligence to him. He just may have not been the smartest guy in the room when you're talking about walking that fine line of life, if that's a good way to put it. Some ways, he reminds, I mean, this is maybe a little off, but just immediately when his character was introduced, Um, he reminds me of the Lenny character to the George character. Perfect examblnol of Mison men right, perfect example because George is sort of the swindler, hustler kind of guy, and Lenny is sort of his sidekick who he's sort of like bring, is along for the ride and sort of like takes advantage of um and then obviously things go very badly as as also it ends up being the case in this story. Um. But I think that relationship is fascinating because there is some love there, true real love and camaraderie, but also it's a very functional relationship. I agree. And it's such a great piece of literature that you pointed out, And that is one question. Now that you point that out and all that I wish I would have asked Jim about that specific piece of literature and the comparison between George and Lenny and Peewee and Walter. I would be fascinating to hear of professor weigh in on that, wouldn't it? Yeah? Absolutely, and will pause for a word from our sponsors, then return with more from Jeff Keating. Hey, we're back, Jeff. I want to ask you about the uh, the women in in Pee Wee's life. You you mentioned earlier that he had five I think I think it was six wives in total. But many times when he did have a spouse and they were living together, the situation, the living situation would be odd where there would be another person living with them who was also a love interest, or he would he would find a new love and get married and the ex wife would still live in the same place where he was living. There's just a lot of weird situations going on with him and and the women in his life. I just wonder if there's if you saw any patterns there, if there's any stories you'd like to tell us about that crazy situation. And here's something where I think Peevie didn't maybe used the best uh his wits or best sense about him. He's got all these different relationships and women floating everywhere. Two wives, I mean, I think, if I remember this correctly, he was married to a few women at the same time illegally, like he just goes down and gets another marriage license and and and so he may call them X because maybe they're living someone else. But I know there was several occasions where he had one or two women living in his house or trailer park with him at the same time. But peewee, you gotta know there's gonna be a lot of jowl in if you do that, there's gonna be a lot of talk and gossip. So that was one thing that I kind of giggled about if you're trying to keep a close knit circle. And maybe again he uses the power and the influence and the manipulation and the fact that he's financially taking care of all these people to control that situation. But where it's gonna get out, Yeah, And and my understanding is that many of these women were significantly younger than him, between ten twenty years sometimes younger than him. Um so I can, I can only I don't know. It's it's weird. Goes back to the contradiction thing that but because that's a good point, Matt, they were. And so again, when you've got that age gap, the power to control and manipulate and especially maybe even look up to him as a father figure. I can see where that can he feels like he could control that situation. But again, I just don't know if he thought that clearly about all of this stuff, because that's one thing, you know, again, when you have so many different relationships going on, relationships are tough for even the most normal of us. Uh So, anyway, it's funny. I think it goes to the heavily impulsive, reactive nature of his mind. One thing that always stands out is the description of how he would have intrusive thoughts. That's what a psychologists call him, but he doesn't call them that, right, He calls them what is it, Jeff, bothersome? He says, I have these bothersome thoughts. Yes, that's one of the words I think he used. That's another question that comes up with many of these cases. Clearly there's a capability for forethought right. Clearly there's a capable ability for planning right, implicating somebody else, making them an accomplice to avoid to avoid drawing right, or the threat thereof. But in your from your perspective, how much of his how many of his crimes were like planned in advanced versus just those reactions of of something misfiring in his mind. I feel like Peewee's reaction to jawing and betrayal may not have triggered these decks and crimes initially, Like my guess is they didn't happen like an impulse reaction, but they triggered something in Peewee's mind like this guy or this man or this child is going to go down, And so the plans started to churn in his mind. And I feel at that point, Ben there was no coming back from him, like I would you know, one of the questions I would love to ask Peewee if he was still alive, was hey, did anybody walk away from betraying or drawing from you? You know? I mean, I think there's a couple out there that maybe he just never had a chance to get to. But if he was ever able to walk back that impulsive thought that he ultimately normally acted on, and it was probably a point of pride for him not to do that, which makes even more or maybe even that code as well been like you know, no, this is part of the code, and and and this has to happen now and maybe you know same with other um criminal inter like you have to set an example, right, Like if I let this guy go and do this, what is everybody else going to do to me? I think that's a common theme and a lot of criminal organizations. I want to give a quick example of the kinds of things that an associate maybe john about, just so we we have a picture here. Um, you speak to someone named Margaret O'Shea who tells a story about one of like one of the schemes basically that Pee had come up with. So for a time, he would be working at a tobacco plantation or or in a tobacco field, and he and usually an associate would like clear all the tobacco that was stored up in a farm that had been cultivated, they cleared out of the or like take it away basically to go sell it to somebody else, right correct, And then they'd set the barn on fire. They would make the money off of that crop, but then the insurance company would pay the plantation owner or the tobacco owner for that crop. So he basically doubled the money and the value of that tobacco by stealing it and and arson Um, so you know he's got an associate working with him on that. So if that associate goes John at a local let's same bar or something telling people about it, then he's implicated in a serious crime. So it's just I just want to give an example. There are there any other examples of kind of the schemes that he would get up to. Yeah, and let's use an example in one of the murders, because I think it said I won't go into the names of the murder, so the audience gonna join. But there's one murder that comes up where he basically because somebody has asked him to do a hit or or at least two quiet somebody is a better way to put it. But it turns into a murder, and he brings these people with him, makes them look at the dead body, and basically says to him, you are now an accessory, and if you go jaw into anybody else, you're going. First of all, I'll kill you. Let me just start with that. But even if for some reason you get away from like clutches and I get you know, put down, you're going down with me, which, by the way, ultimately happens. So yeah, he's he's going to tie you up in all of this, Matt, He's gonna tie you up. Man. You ain't getting out Peewee's web. Oh good I would. That's a very gritty sequel to Charlotte's Web. I think the technically different thematic because Charlotte was so loving and nice to Wilbur and pee Wee. Oh my goodness. No, no, no, So right now, I just in full disclosure as we are recording this interview, Uh, I don't know how the story fully ends. We're not to the last episode yet, so everybody you should know that. Uh, Jeff did not give us give us too many spoilers. So we're listening right along with you as as this show comes out. And one of the questions that I really wanted to ask you is what lessons do do we hope people can take from this narrative? And what what can this story tell us? How can because when I listened to this, one of the things that struck me is this is this is important, This is informative. People should know the full story right of something that for many people may have just been a headline right in their local news. So what what do you think people can take from this show? And how can knowing the full breadth of this story, Uh, how can it help authorities? How can it educate the public going forward? I think one of Jim's children, and I just can't remember who said it right now, spoke to that specifically. And Jim was talking to a son about this, how there are so many people, especially young people out in the world. You don't know what's going on with them. It could be homeless, it could be family life, it could be and he used the specific words. I hope it comes to me outlayers. Maybe the word he used, um, but it was even something strong, longer than that. And we're so used again specifically this past year with the pandemic being in our bubble. Our kids that are close to us are loving wife or husband, or aunts and uncles and grandmas and grandpas that are close, and our friends that are connected to that. But there are so many There's so much more going on in the communities underneath what we see that the authorities deal with. But again they've got their hands full with so much going on as well. So I think it's important for us to understand and maybe keep an eye out for the outlayers, the people that need to be brought into the world of good health and good education, and we just don't know. There's so many lost lives. I guess ben is a good way to put it. There's so many lost lives. And I don't being lost like they've been killed, but losses in they're walking out in the world, no guides and no love and no hands to hold them. And when that happens, you have a much better chance to be killed or taken or kidnapped or whatever the violent act. Maybe And at this point, uh, you know, as we said before, we don't want to spoil the story. It is a journey that you should take for yourself. Don't take our word for it. Check it out yourself. Pee Wee. Gaskins was not My Friend. Created by Jeff Keating. Episodes are available now. We like you can't wait to hear how it ends. Jeff. In the meantime, first, thank you so much for coming on the show today. But in the meantime, what other projects are you working on, either as an individual or through Doghouse Pictures. We we'd love to learn more about your work. I've got two more podcasts I'm developing now. One is a Cold Case and the other is an international murder, which I'm so excited to explore. I've got a feature film that I'm developing called follow Me, which is based on a critically acclaim short story of the same name by a wonderful author named Paul Grinder, And it's the story about a female photographer who hires a private investigator to follow her and take pictures. But when the gig raps, the pictures don't stop, and they become more and more invasive and intimate. And it's the relationship of diving into kind of self explanation and this world's of photography and really a visual medium that we're excited to dive into that sounds gloriously creepy and I can't wait to see this. I just want to add to Jeff it's it's it's really been a pleasure working with you on this one and also Fighting Night, and one commonality between those two, I think both of us had a good time helping develop the score uh to these podcasts with some amazing local Atlanta UM Studio musicians, the Diamond Street Players, which is sort of a collective UM. With Fight Night, we went in a really cool kind of James Brown, kind of gritty New York kind of funk sound, and for this one, it really does mimic that dusty carnival kind of like you know, fun house kind of vibe. UM really really impressed with the way it turned out, and it really is kind of a cool, uh cohesive piece of this show. UM, So I just wanted to put that out there too. If you're into creepy music and the way it's incorporated into a podcast, it's not overplayed. I think it's done really tastefully, and I think you guys did an excellent job of incorporating all that stuff that we worked with those guys on, So kudos for that, and just to kind of wrap things up, guys to the process, and we didn't get into the process much. I know that wasn't part of the show, but the process of podcasting is just fascinating. It's so much fun. And so I had a fantastic team on this one. Again. Nol's been my EP on both projects. Dan Bush, who you spoke of, was my director on Fight Night. But our writers and researchers who I mentioned earlier, Courtney to Freeze, Jim Roberts and Terry James, our editor Jeremiah Prescott, I mean it's really especially when you do these limited narratives true crimes. Uh. The teams are so important. We've got a great team that works with us at Doghouse Pictures, so I just want to give thanks to them, and uh again thanks to the audience. You guys have grabbed onto this thing. We've got a bunch of listeners, some great reviews, and I just really appreciate everybody that's out there listening and has been following the story. Yeah, so follow their q and listen and review now on Apple podcasts. Uh, the I heart Radio Apple wherever you get your podcasts, and to learn more for yourself, you can go to Doghouse Pictures dot com uh to to get a bigger breadth of Jeff's work, not just in the world of podcasts, but well beyond. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. Folks. Let us know your thoughts, which try to make it easy to find us online. That's right, you can find us on most of the internet locations. Of note, we are on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube as Conspiracy Stuff were Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and h While you're listening in reviewing jazz podcast, why not give us a review as well, preferably on the Apple platform, but any podcatcher that that lets your review where we're here for it. That's right. You know. 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