From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be returning shortly.

They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of time on that. It was sort of chapter one of the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its role as a massive land route for migration and crime. And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair. This is particularly close to a lot of us and our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US as we record.

They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of time on that. It was sort of chapter one of the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its role as a massive land route for migration and crime. And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair. This is particularly close to a lot of us and our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US as we record.

Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend, there was a there was a large thing that occurred within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't know what you would call it, an argument between the United States and the country of Colombia about two I guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings that were deported by the United States back to Colombia and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs. And then it appears today as we record on Monday, January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap. If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but it is between Central America and South America. It's a piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app and it's just I think it's weird for us because where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular place a sector. I guess if they call it a what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.

Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend, there was a there was a large thing that occurred within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't know what you would call it, an argument between the United States and the country of Colombia about two I guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings that were deported by the United States back to Colombia and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs. And then it appears today as we record on Monday, January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap. If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but it is between Central America and South America. It's a piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app and it's just I think it's weird for us because where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular place a sector. I guess if they call it a what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.

What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way, if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either, not once.

What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way, if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either, not once.

Not once. And I lived right in the heart of that area. And there are major as we speak right now, and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart because one or two people within a household is just being picked up by agents and shipped off.

Not once. And I lived right in the heart of that area. And there are major as we speak right now, and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart because one or two people within a household is just being picked up by agents and shipped off.

Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the larger context. If you want to get some of them more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt, you can folks check out the LA Times They just came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over, It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.

Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the larger context. If you want to get some of them more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt, you can folks check out the LA Times They just came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over, It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.

Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this story is that these are human beings that at some point took a journey to get to the United States, right And whether or not they came through the dairy end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but we do know that desire to get to the US somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.

Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this story is that these are human beings that at some point took a journey to get to the United States, right And whether or not they came through the dairy end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but we do know that desire to get to the US somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.

And there may be an episode in future evening related to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing. So what about this man? What if we pause for a word from our sponsors, and then we come back with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.

And there may be an episode in future evening related to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing. So what about this man? What if we pause for a word from our sponsors, and then we come back with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.

We'll keep it.

We'll keep it.

We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it. So we'll come back and give you a brief recap of the of the Darien Gap as you had set up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So, as you were saying, if you if you pull up your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether that be you know something online, you can zoom into the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth. Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking, continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and all points north. This is the only land route to do that.

We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it. So we'll come back and give you a brief recap of the of the Darien Gap as you had set up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So, as you were saying, if you if you pull up your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether that be you know something online, you can zoom into the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth. Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking, continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and all points north. This is the only land route to do that.

Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.

Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.

Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it is literally a gap. It is the only break in the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans the like the entire left side of North and South America, which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons, the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch of road through this gap, which is a sixty something mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something that looks small. I love how you pointed this out in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot, it is huge.

Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it is literally a gap. It is the only break in the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans the like the entire left side of North and South America, which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons, the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch of road through this gap, which is a sixty something mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something that looks small. I love how you pointed this out in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot, it is huge.

Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben, or that length that would be if you connected where the last road is in Panama to the last road in Columbia, or vice versa.

Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben, or that length that would be if you connected where the last road is in Panama to the last road in Columbia, or vice versa.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern road system here comes as part of a much larger historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains, but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife, the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases, nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial. They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from the outside who has attempted a large scale community has either died or turned back.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern road system here comes as part of a much larger historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains, but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife, the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases, nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial. They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from the outside who has attempted a large scale community has either died or turned back.

Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos, you will see that there are villages, there are small pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say, which includes humans across that border.

Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos, you will see that there are villages, there are small pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say, which includes humans across that border.

Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean, fulfilling the same function that you might see for a rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States, right place to get off the road, to stop traveling, to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases, and then you know places safer places to sleep, all of which come at a cost. And that's that's the important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure of size in this part of the world, and it reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities, right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers. It eats all the work of man, you know. And I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples, you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively short span of time, the jungle would take them. So that's that's an active thing you're working against.

Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean, fulfilling the same function that you might see for a rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States, right place to get off the road, to stop traveling, to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases, and then you know places safer places to sleep, all of which come at a cost. And that's that's the important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure of size in this part of the world, and it reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities, right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers. It eats all the work of man, you know. And I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples, you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively short span of time, the jungle would take them. So that's that's an active thing you're working against.

Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms and it is nuts not because not only does the jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.

Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms and it is nuts not because not only does the jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.

Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings. So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns, right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are several reasons no one's built a modern road through this area and probably won't for the near future, and all those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist, with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years. There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate any of their assets from their home country just so they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately to the United States. And we didn't talk about it too much. We'll get into this in a second, but there are This is a business. It is a business that is run by cartels with the aid and approval of state security forces in some cases. And because it is a business, they are doing the at least for me, the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might get a horse, right, or we could even take you well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way, or you know, you could hop on a boat and try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I get it, I get it. I know it's a little Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell one that is the best one. Why do you have to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry? Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it. That's what it is. And look, the people who are doing this, they're not wealthy.

Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings. So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns, right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are several reasons no one's built a modern road through this area and probably won't for the near future, and all those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist, with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years. There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate any of their assets from their home country just so they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately to the United States. And we didn't talk about it too much. We'll get into this in a second, but there are This is a business. It is a business that is run by cartels with the aid and approval of state security forces in some cases. And because it is a business, they are doing the at least for me, the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might get a horse, right, or we could even take you well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way, or you know, you could hop on a boat and try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I get it, I get it. I know it's a little Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell one that is the best one. Why do you have to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry? Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it. That's what it is. And look, the people who are doing this, they're not wealthy.

You know.

You know.

Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela. So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm going to just go on a fun little trip. People are doing this because they feel they must. They feel that it is a matter of survival. That's an important thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience or political beliefs.

Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela. So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm going to just go on a fun little trip. People are doing this because they feel they must. They feel that it is a matter of survival. That's an important thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience or political beliefs.

Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap, at least as it is known in the Darien I think it's the national forest that's right there or national park, excuse me. And that is a border like that is a border area. So when you're thinking about those state security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say, very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across and then keep others on the you know, from from traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way. I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.

Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap, at least as it is known in the Darien I think it's the national forest that's right there or national park, excuse me. And that is a border like that is a border area. So when you're thinking about those state security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say, very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across and then keep others on the you know, from from traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way. I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.

Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia. They got to the point where they do touch the government. They step on as you as you said, some things they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of security and heads of things like border control or of course, you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies can pop the tea on that one.

Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia. They got to the point where they do touch the government. They step on as you as you said, some things they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of security and heads of things like border control or of course, you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies can pop the tea on that one.

That's one of those things I never got as a kid, when there would be jokes about a joke or an aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I never understood any of that that was in media, all these movies that we watched as kids that adults would like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.

That's one of those things I never got as a kid, when there would be jokes about a joke or an aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I never understood any of that that was in media, all these movies that we watched as kids that adults would like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.

I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man. I even knew like friends' parents who were import export legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far as I could tell, you know, I think they were probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah, you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated and I hope I'm not the only one who has a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college, I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I none of these guys are carrying packages?

I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man. I even knew like friends' parents who were import export legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far as I could tell, you know, I think they were probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah, you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated and I hope I'm not the only one who has a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college, I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I none of these guys are carrying packages?

Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?

Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?

Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again, there's a lot going on here. There are some matters of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned that the Darien gap plays a big role in why Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin with the logical question we ended on previously. With all this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy, all right. People have been trying to get in and out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective way to move their other products, and so they didn't really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded. I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to diminish it. Oh yeah, I.

Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again, there's a lot going on here. There are some matters of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned that the Darien gap plays a big role in why Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin with the logical question we ended on previously. With all this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy, all right. People have been trying to get in and out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective way to move their other products, and so they didn't really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded. I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to diminish it. Oh yeah, I.

Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because there are not a bunch like there's not a military base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side, and there's no When you think about who controls those borders, you do think about some form of official border protection force that is militarized.

Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because there are not a bunch like there's not a military base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side, and there's no When you think about who controls those borders, you do think about some form of official border protection force that is militarized.

Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.

Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.

Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides, going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.

Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides, going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.

Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the last true what is sometimes called a black zone on the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good. And I say that too. It is a liminal space where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing to rule of law in his lawless place is a network of drug cartels who are some of the world's most successful for profit entities up there with banks.

Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the last true what is sometimes called a black zone on the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good. And I say that too. It is a liminal space where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing to rule of law in his lawless place is a network of drug cartels who are some of the world's most successful for profit entities up there with banks.

I love your note in the event whatever I said it.

I love your note in the event whatever I said it.

Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to come after us. You know, if it was Josh and Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax would would care.

Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to come after us. You know, if it was Josh and Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax would would care.

Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.

Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.

This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And I know we've both been reading a lot of these amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part. And you know one article that stood out, I think to all of us is from the Atlantic in August of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out if you have the time, because they have photographs, they have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap, and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following, just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here, everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings. They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube, and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through. The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars. That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.

This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And I know we've both been reading a lot of these amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part. And you know one article that stood out, I think to all of us is from the Atlantic in August of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out if you have the time, because they have photographs, they have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap, and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following, just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here, everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings. They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube, and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through. The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars. That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.

Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you would find out about it. I don't know. And again, everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that someone might take if they're trying to get across a border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah, you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah, you're just getting across a border. What what it makes me think about just with the cost alone, if you're if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too. By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once you get into Panama, what do you where do you go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if you are going as far north as the United States, or if you are just trying to get to you know, just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something. There's a lot more steps and a lot more money that you have to pay out.

Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you would find out about it. I don't know. And again, everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that someone might take if they're trying to get across a border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah, you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah, you're just getting across a border. What what it makes me think about just with the cost alone, if you're if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too. By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once you get into Panama, what do you where do you go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if you are going as far north as the United States, or if you are just trying to get to you know, just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something. There's a lot more steps and a lot more money that you have to pay out.

Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist, in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person, this happens more than once She enter team are well aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations, and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people, sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed up in the green.

Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist, in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person, this happens more than once She enter team are well aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations, and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people, sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed up in the green.

Yeah, that's unsettling.

Yeah, that's unsettling.

I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you, then you are far less likely to be attacked by a gang of like five bandits.

I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you, then you are far less likely to be attacked by a gang of like five bandits.

Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you did want to have personal protection as you went through there. I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because it feels like you would need at least, you know, a machete or something as you're going through the jungle. I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.

Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you did want to have personal protection as you went through there. I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because it feels like you would need at least, you know, a machete or something as you're going through the jungle. I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.

Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest. And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations, that's great. If you haven't, don't.

Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest. And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations, that's great. If you haven't, don't.

Why do sherpas carry ars?

Why do sherpas carry ars?

I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right, add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know, be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees with the policy missteps that we touched on a little bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect, but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept that by making migration harder, you will limit the number of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art. It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know, if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the world of crime. They'll find a way to you know, smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder, that's where it gets confused.

I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right, add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know, be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees with the policy missteps that we touched on a little bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect, but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept that by making migration harder, you will limit the number of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art. It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know, if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the world of crime. They'll find a way to you know, smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder, that's where it gets confused.

Right.

Right.

If you make if you make these migration policies higher, if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting the number of people who are still going to attempt a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.

If you make if you make these migration policies higher, if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting the number of people who are still going to attempt a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.

Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked. But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing, which is another form you know, I off getting across a longer distance to get into the US via that import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse, to be honest.

Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked. But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing, which is another form you know, I off getting across a longer distance to get into the US via that import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse, to be honest.

Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror, are they not.

Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror, are they not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out right you have to have the food that you brought with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one of the things you most regret not bringing more of is going to be water and it's easy to die there.

The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out right you have to have the food that you brought with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one of the things you most regret not bringing more of is going to be water and it's easy to die there.

You know.

You know.

It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to figure out what you're going to tell your six year old right when they see some things that children should not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot of people doing this and they don't really have a say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground, and they found that the number of migrants in Latin America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers, and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that you and I talked about that previously in Part one, because that's I think, by far and away the largest proportion of migrants.

It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to figure out what you're going to tell your six year old right when they see some things that children should not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot of people doing this and they don't really have a say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground, and they found that the number of migrants in Latin America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers, and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that you and I talked about that previously in Part one, because that's I think, by far and away the largest proportion of migrants.

Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was studied in those numbers that came from the what was it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah, over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get in through Panama.

Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was studied in those numbers that came from the what was it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah, over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get in through Panama.

And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents. And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah, and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want to take an abortion, but the medical care for that is not available.

And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents. And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah, and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want to take an abortion, but the medical care for that is not available.

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over, but it's not the same at all because they were basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you can get out right now and leave everything and just get out. In this case, you know, a lot of the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state right of the country, where there are the things that human beings need are no longer in very good supply, if at all, and you just have to leave because there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military and a lot of the groups that would be considered counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I gotta get out of here.

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over, but it's not the same at all because they were basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you can get out right now and leave everything and just get out. In this case, you know, a lot of the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state right of the country, where there are the things that human beings need are no longer in very good supply, if at all, and you just have to leave because there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military and a lot of the groups that would be considered counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I gotta get out of here.

Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones. And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course, who want to create their own regimes. Some of those candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.

Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones. And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course, who want to create their own regimes. Some of those candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.

Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you if you are a citizen of the country and just trying to live and have a family and grow a business or anything like that. It's just it's not about you in their eyes.

Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you if you are a citizen of the country and just trying to live and have a family and grow a business or anything like that. It's just it's not about you in their eyes.

Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela. Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you need to be to traverse the gap. You run into the business, the big business of the golf clan. They hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything, which roots can be used by migrants as well as by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.

Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela. Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you need to be to traverse the gap. You run into the business, the big business of the golf clan. They hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything, which roots can be used by migrants as well as by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.

Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels. Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me think about state local taxes, sales taxes.

Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels. Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me think about state local taxes, sales taxes.

Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that. I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes, they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans, they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will get you off the case.

Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that. I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes, they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans, they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will get you off the case.

Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh, who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the character you'd have to put as the judge. You have to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.

Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh, who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the character you'd have to put as the judge. You have to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.

The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not an eyepatch.

The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not an eyepatch.

Yeah yeah, maybe.

Yeah yeah, maybe.

Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.

Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.

Runs of fast food Chicken.

Runs of fast food Chicken.

Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke. Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?

Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke. Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?

I think so.

I think so.

Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how much money does the clan make from just this? This is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly, from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way. I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we have to go.

Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how much money does the clan make from just this? This is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly, from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way. I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we have to go.

We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes a little bit off the top two and that's probably not calculated in.

We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes a little bit off the top two and that's probably not calculated in.

Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah, it is the name of the platform. It probably is no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that. That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly, veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money than that.

Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah, it is the name of the platform. It probably is no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that. That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly, veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money than that.

Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.

Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.

Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah, this is just the migrant money. This is not counting the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know, this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt, the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take a hypothetical journey through the gap together.

Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah, this is just the migrant money. This is not counting the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know, this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt, the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take a hypothetical journey through the gap together.

Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven million before taxes.

Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven million before taxes.

Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals, of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there? First things. First, to get through it, you have to get to it.

Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals, of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there? First things. First, to get through it, you have to get to it.

Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again, if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to put all of your luggage into a car, then you would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good way to get there too. It is super dangerous to take that boat ride along the coast on either side of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again, that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get shot at or pirated exactly.

Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again, if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to put all of your luggage into a car, then you would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good way to get there too. It is super dangerous to take that boat ride along the coast on either side of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again, that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get shot at or pirated exactly.

Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people who just have to get on a boat every day as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells fish at the at the local coastal market, they have probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups, right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get. It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt, is these first steps are in their own ways as dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.

Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people who just have to get on a boat every day as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells fish at the at the local coastal market, they have probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups, right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get. It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt, is these first steps are in their own ways as dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.

And then you finally get there and you get corraled kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just exactly not the one you want to be at, but the one you have to be at, or at least you feel that you need to be there. You know. That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations. So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's going to be your guide? Here is here are all the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet, you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make sure you've got enough water for your.

And then you finally get there and you get corraled kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just exactly not the one you want to be at, but the one you have to be at, or at least you feel that you need to be there. You know. That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations. So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's going to be your guide? Here is here are all the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet, you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make sure you've got enough water for your.

Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point. We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas. And this is we're pulling a little bit of this from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World. It is like the crowd organization is very much like that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know this following group file in here, and the groups vary in size, but they do want larger groups because it lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's a mix of things.

Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point. We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas. And this is we're pulling a little bit of this from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World. It is like the crowd organization is very much like that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know this following group file in here, and the groups vary in size, but they do want larger groups because it lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's a mix of things.

Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on your journey there, it is, at least from the reports we've seen of human beings who have gone and now come back to report on it. There are basically a series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees. You may have seen this kind of thing before at like a national park or something where there are areas and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other times it is like color coded, so you can just be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more complex and probably a little more dangerous.

Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on your journey there, it is, at least from the reports we've seen of human beings who have gone and now come back to report on it. There are basically a series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees. You may have seen this kind of thing before at like a national park or something where there are areas and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other times it is like color coded, so you can just be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more complex and probably a little more dangerous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods, you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in this part of the United States, path through the wilderness may be marked with just like a strip of plastic or spray paint, you know, and if you see this spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works really well for keeping people on the right track. From what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going, keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back on that blue green path. This is all explained to you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various guides on the Colombian side of the border to come up to you and ask you if you want to buy something, if you want them to carry something for you. And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters are with you or they're around. So in addition to the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete. They're they're clearing the path out because it will get over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods, you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in this part of the United States, path through the wilderness may be marked with just like a strip of plastic or spray paint, you know, and if you see this spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works really well for keeping people on the right track. From what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going, keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back on that blue green path. This is all explained to you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various guides on the Colombian side of the border to come up to you and ask you if you want to buy something, if you want them to carry something for you. And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters are with you or they're around. So in addition to the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete. They're they're clearing the path out because it will get over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.

Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go a week as I was trying to clear a couple paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a creek back there, and I gave it a week off and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine growth is so intense.

Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go a week as I was trying to clear a couple paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a creek back there, and I gave it a week off and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine growth is so intense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any cutsoo in your backyard?

And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any cutsoo in your backyard?

Not anymore?

Not anymore?

Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.

Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.

No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.

No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.

You're not bamboo fan.

You're not bamboo fan.

It's it looks great, but it is evil if you don't control where it goes.

It's it looks great, but it is evil if you don't control where it goes.

It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot of care.

It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot of care.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.

Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.

Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.

Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.

Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own brand of products.

Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own brand of products.

Based in state craft, like terminology okay.

Based in state craft, like terminology okay.

Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo is going, and you.

Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo is going, and you.

See you cut it off and you think you've cut it off at its source, but no, that's not the nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.

See you cut it off and you think you've cut it off at its source, but no, that's not the nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.

It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for this journey that people are taking, there is going to be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people. It's for a lot of folks, it may be the most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb up onto a fence so they can address the crowd, and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know, let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a reason we are doing this, and God is on our side, and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad. You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe. But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay, we can do this, right, We've already come so far. In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is just another leg of a much longer journey.

It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for this journey that people are taking, there is going to be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people. It's for a lot of folks, it may be the most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb up onto a fence so they can address the crowd, and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know, let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a reason we are doing this, and God is on our side, and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad. You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe. But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay, we can do this, right, We've already come so far. In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is just another leg of a much longer journey.

And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And if we can get through this, we're good and it's not going to be that bad. Is what you're being told by the people who just took a bunch of your money.

And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And if we can get through this, we're good and it's not going to be that bad. Is what you're being told by the people who just took a bunch of your money.

Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah, you know, this may not be a brand new Ford Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos. But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart. You know, you don't need to change the oil that much. It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.

Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah, you know, this may not be a brand new Ford Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos. But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart. You know, you don't need to change the oil that much. It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.

We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle. It's fine, which is crazy.

We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle. It's fine, which is crazy.

And then also the time how long does it take? As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are often told this is a two day journey. That is not the case, and they just mean two day journey sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more things like the you know, the resting areas if you can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt, I think it's safe for us to say that most people are not getting through there in two days.

And then also the time how long does it take? As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are often told this is a two day journey. That is not the case, and they just mean two day journey sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more things like the you know, the resting areas if you can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt, I think it's safe for us to say that most people are not getting through there in two days.

No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of stuff that you feel that you need to carry when you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen that it's often the case where you know, somebody will end a journey if they make it all the way through with half the things that they brought along with them, if not less. It gets down to essentials as it gets more grueling, uh out there.

No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of stuff that you feel that you need to carry when you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen that it's often the case where you know, somebody will end a journey if they make it all the way through with half the things that they brought along with them, if not less. It gets down to essentials as it gets more grueling, uh out there.

Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration. You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do we put it in our previous recording. The kind of in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general, the kind of thing that you could cure with a trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics, you know. And then people barter stuff when they run out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt, what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?

Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration. You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do we put it in our previous recording. The kind of in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general, the kind of thing that you could cure with a trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics, you know. And then people barter stuff when they run out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt, what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?

Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter out there, it might be just three days, it could be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that, could be like ten days.

Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter out there, it might be just three days, it could be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that, could be like ten days.