From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben. We are joined as always with our superproducer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know a very very fascinating episode. Matt. This is something that you brought together with us and it explores in a different way some of the topics that we have touched on in our earlier shows. Oh yeah, all all sorts of different things, everything from the nature of human beings and how we like to exist with one another two when that gets taken a little too far to then how those experiences can influence and uh and inspire. Yeah, we're talking about the the process of art as well. You know, this is this is a wide ranging This is a wide ranging thing. I know some of us listening you are saying, guys, what what are you actually talking about? We are not We are not diving into these waters alone. We are joined today with a very special guest, uh, the musician John Bryant, who has a new album, Cult Classic releasing May seventeenth of this year. You can preorder it on Amazon now. Welcome to the show. John, Hey guys, thanks for having me. Well, and I have to jump in really quick. Yeah, but a very lovely opening there, But I gotta say you Bury the lead ever so slight just a little bit. Yes, we're absolutely talking about are We're talking about the things that make human and thrive and that you know, allow us to express ourselves. But we're also talking about a very specific type of experience, and that's being a member of occult and the nature of that and the term itself and how no one in a cult calls a cult occult, you know, and that's a movement, it's a movement or it's an idea. But we have in John, not only a very talented musician, but someone who I don't know, if you use the term escaped, and that's something that you here come up and maybe it's not your experience, but someone that has been in a situation and then is no longer in that situation. With the Nexium group or let's call it what it is, a cult. Yeah, as you said earlier, I don't feel like I ever had to escape it, but it was, it was it was harder to leave than I thought I should say. Yeah, well, okay, so I want to get into that a little bit more just escaping, more as a symbolic thing of maybe your your own you know, your thoughts and your thought processes and everything. But that's again that that might be a strong word because ultimately a out of people, um are able to find the silver lining in that kind of thing. But let's let's jump in here and let's talk about something that's a little more general level or a little higher level. UM. Let's talk about tribalism. And you know, we we we as humans are solitary. Sometimes some of us, like, uh, like a few of us in this room here are a little more introverted and like to be by ourselves at times. But ultimately we're looking for connection with other people, and you know, with our interconnected world. Now it's all in these black screens rather than or at least mostly on these black screens rather than in person. And uh, just what what do you think about that? Where? How do you feel about society right now, John, And and kind of where we are with our interconnectedness, Well, I mean you walk outside and I now kind of intentionally bump into people when they're looking on their phones and walking because it's everywhere people are. People are inundated with information and they're addicted to it. So, um, they're kind of in this in this bubble of of information and they can go to whatever idea or ideology that they want and get sucked in so easily because we have these devices that reinforce those beliefs and and reinforce a feeling of I guess importance and value. So so the more value you get out of that device or that you know, just speaking about bones for instance, it's just it's it's everywhere, you know, and then it's spread in the politics obviously and another other aspects of life. But yeah, it's everywhere I look, man, And especially after this experience, UM, I pick it up a little more in Tuneto that there's there's some incredible stuff that we we found reading about your experience and your journey. One line in particular really stuck out to me. John. It was the it was the new that falling into a belief system is like dying in your sleep. You don't notice it when it happens. And something about that struck me profoundly, and I think it ties into the point about the ubiquity of smartphones. It's strange how quickly the oddest things become normal for our species, you know. And with that in mind, I was wondering, could you could you tell us a little bit about your UM, your initial encounters and how you how you came to uh find yourself from Seattle to Vancouver, and how you got involved with this group initially. Sure. So, I'm originally from the East Coast of Canada. UM, and about nine years ago I moved to Seattle. UM. I moved out there for a girl, and UH I got married and then I got divorced a year later. UM. It was a it was a it was one of those mistakes that I kind of reference and did what I did. It's just, you know, one of those moments in life when I when I when I just trusted and fell into something that I shouldn't have fallen into. UM. Fast forward about a year and a half, two years, UM I decided to move back to Canada, but I moved to Vancouver and UM sort of set up shop there. I didn't know a lot of people. Um. I love searching for new experiences and new um new groups and new new friends. And so I found myself in Vancouver kind of lonely and kind of just uh, in this weird place that I hadn't been to in a long or I hadn't been in it a long time. So um, so I started making friends. I had some uh, some people talk to me about this group that they were part of, and it was it was kind of exclusive, and it was all about bettering oneself, bettering the world. It's about you know, growing your business. It opens you up to new opportunities. It's been the best that this is how it was explaining to me. It was the best thing that that that these people had ever had ever been introduced to. And these are people that I trusted, people that I was I had been close to, these are some of the One of the few people that's the one that recruited me was somebody that I've known for for a few years at that point. So it took a few months of persuasion and you know, the pitch of of of what are you waiting for? You know, every moment you wait, you're losing out on this opportunity. It's it's you know, wouldn't you if you knew you could change your life in in in the most impactful ways, wouldn't you spend a couple a couple of thousand dollars to just do that? To to be able to control your emotions, to be able to control your anger. I have like an anger problem, or I did at that time, And so they kind of they kind of target your weaknesses and then, um find a way to persuade you to overcome those and become a part of this group. And that's just in the recruitment process, before you were even involved with the group officially. Oh yeah, yeah, that was in the recruitment process. Yeah. There's this contagious energy you know when you when because we all want to belong to something larger than ourselves, right. I think, as you noted earlier, this was another quote that really stuck out to me. To be an occult is to be human, um, And there's something with that, you know. To Matt's point about tribalism, I'm wondering, when did you begin to feel that maybe something was was a miss, Like when did you get you know, the spidy Sense moment or the twilight Zone music ever playing. Was Was there a moment or was it a gradual process of disassociation. I think that the first week of introduction, the intro course that they do, it's it's a five day intensive. You show up at seven o'clock in the morning and sometimes you'll be staying until one or two a m. And that will go on for five days straight. So there's there's the the sleep deprivation UM that they kind of take you through. And then they they limit your ability or your They discourage leaving the room when things are going on, when discussions are being talked about. They want you stay engaged in the room, listening to the information that's being disseminated. So we were never really like we were given water breaks, but they were they were few and far between, and then we'd have lunch and dinner UM. So I think around the first few days, UM, I started to feel strange because you show up in the morning, you know, you'll be hanging out a bit, and then you go in the room, UH, and there'd be a plaque on the wall, a big, big plaque with UM text that reads UM something to the tune of we promised to like a bunch of it was basically a mantra to keep um saying, we won't spread the this information to anyone who's not a part of this group. We won't talk about it. So it's like kind of like the fight club moment where I was like, oh god, this feels this feels strange. And at first I was like, oh, this is kind of weird, but I'll get over it. And then as it went on, I think it got worse, but at the same time I was enjoying it. So it was hard to Uh, it was hard to just to let that aspect dictate um, my final decision. You know what I was gonna do when the week was over and if I was going to continue on with it, right, Um, So it was tricky. And then they have the secret handshakes and they have um wait really yeah, uh oh yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, okay, Well you can't you can't describe that to us, right, I don't think I can't. I mean, I don't know. I probably shouldn't. Um, it was strange, I think, um yeah, there was there was some weird nuances about that group that it was just this weird like moment of Oh there, this is mind control, just mind control one on one now. It was just so funny thinking about it now, it's been a few years, but I really enjoyed that week, and I can't get away from that. I can't get away from the fact that I like to the learning aspects. I like the people, I liked the the group atmosphere. I like the tribalism to a point, you know, to the point where I consider I decided to go on for a few more months with it, and that those are those weird, strange behaviors and nuances didn't didn't bother me as much as I now think they should. M John, tell tell me more about the interactions between you and the other members. Are the other people who were joining up? What is that like? Did you get a sense early on that there is a very specific pattern of beliefs that shared almost immediately or is it something that when you're talking to maybe I don't even know what the superior what what would a superior person look like in the group, like someone who's actually teaching. Um, I guess I want to know more about the structure of it. Yeah, So they talked in the first day about the hierarchy of the structure of the group, and they related it to the military and to school systems. You know, you have the students, they have teachers, they have the deing of the president, you know, and and the military is the same thing, and they wear uniforms. We had sashes around our necks, the velvety kind um scarves that we wore around our necks. So in the room there were the beginners, we were the new people, and we wore the yellow sashes, and then the next group up, I can't remember the color, but they were the moderators of the groups. So we we we'd sit in a classroom setting, we'd watch a video and then we'd go off break into groups and talk about what was going on. Um, what we what we you know, we would explain what we're saying. So if they bring up the idea of belief, you know, what is belief? And then we go into a group and talk about, Okay, what is belief actually means? Can we can we decide on on one definition one thing and then we ten minutes talking about that. Then we go back and to be what is truth and what you know? So it's philosophical it's it's a psychological kind of learning that you'd be doing in a group setting, So you have a moderator and then the next group up for the next level would be so level three, I guess I can't remember the exact names for the levels, but they had the the people that were in charge of that UM Cities headquarters, so there would be that group, and then the next group up after that would be the teachers from all the need that they would send out, So we had one of those that was teaching the entire week. Wow, okay, so sashes sashes. I I guess I've never had a good visual for for that particular or group, but I can actually see it now. It makes me is there is there some kind of like hierarchy sort of like belts and karate or something like that, you get a different one depending on your level. I'm just this is just like a shot in the dark question, And that's exactly That's exactly it. Yeah, that's that's probably the most similar to what to what their system was, the karate, uh hierarchy. So we have different colored belts, but they were sashes. And we'll continue our exploration of nexium with John Bryant after a word from our sponsor, and we're back. One thing that's inspiring about this is, you know, a lot of our listeners out there have have delved into the stories of people who joined these kinds of movements and then later become disillusioned, and you while you hear a ton of different UH experiences, one thing that's inspiring about this, at least from from my perspective, is that it sounds as if you have you have found UH useful knowledge through this, and it sounds like it sounds like you were able to come away with some positive lessons. Would you say that's accurate, That's absolutely accurate. Yeah. I have no regrets about joining, and I have no regrets about about the time I was in that group. I think I think if I had staying longer, I would have had regrets because there was more money to be spent and there was time that they wanted from me, you know. But I feel like I got in, I had that experience and wrote it out for an appropriate amount of time that that I got enough and for me, I got enough about what was going on there that I felt it was okay to leave. And I'll feel lucky. I feel fortunately because I wanted to continue. But yeah, and I appreciate that perspective. You know, if if you if something is doing what you set out to accomplish, then there's no reason to leave. But um or there's no reason to think negatively about it. But knowing what you know now about Keith and about the things that were happening behind the scenes, I mean, were you aware of any of that, of of some of the way he was treating women and some of the kind of recruitment that was a little bit more strong arm, kind of borderline human trafficking kind of going on. Like was this all shocking to you or what? What was your perspective on that? Yeah, but I think the information that came out was quite shocking because they painted a picture. I never met Keith, but they really painted a picture of him as being um the white dolly Lama. He was the most ethical. They they actually said this that, you know, the most ethical and the most um the smartest and most most ethical man alive. He was a master problem solver. He graduated at the top of his class with three degrees. You know, they went through this whole list of accomplishments that keep that you know, he's learning to speak in full sentences by the age of one um classically trained piano. He could speak so many languages. But it was some of it was came out to be what what I what I've read is untrue, like people that knew him in school and us. His gradesp apparently was two point two six. So I don't think it's very good She's nope. But at the same time, I mean, he he was. He was kind of revered. I believe he was referred to as Vanguard and he you know, they celebrate his birthday and called it V Day. I mean, it's very much a worshipt worshiping kind of scenario. Did that part strike he was odd? Did you come from a background of like Eastern religion and that, so it was maybe something along the lines of something that you'd already been, you know, immersed in or I'm just wondering what the jump was from seeing this and not thinking it was a little strange. Yeah, No, I thought the Vanguard thing was very strange because in the room in the learning room, which had which had a higher value than the rooms outside of of of that room in the in the building that we were in, that room, the specific room where we were learning, was to be respected, and and there the bows before and after you'd leave, So there were you know, the leaders of you or the teachers, and some of the people that um ran that that headquarters they bow when they leave. And then I'd see people like my peers starting to do that, and I'm like, oh, this is so strange. So you say you did think that part was strange, But what was your background that maybe made an organization like this a little more palatable than maybe someone who came across him was like, hau, I don't know, this is a this is a little odd like it to me from the start just reading about it, it it feels like a scientology kind of situation, which I know is accepted by many. And I just want to put out there that sixteen thousand people in the US and Mexico took these courses, so you are not alone. And this was not a small, tight knit group. This was a very widespread a lot of people, yeah, and a lot of them doctors and lawyers and all sorts all of life. So back to yeah, having to say vanguard. So in the room, which you know I was saying, was to be revered, and respected as the learning room. We would have to refer to Vanguard or what this name, Keith, We had to refer to Keith as as Vanguard. But outside of that room we could say Keith. So that was that was weird and I that was immediately. I was just I said, I remember saying Keith, and then someone correcting means no, no, it's Vanguard, you know, since this room is sacred. That was the the kind of suggestions that were pushed my way when I when I pushed up against it. And we know that the there's such power in ritualism and symbolism, and and our brains, you know, are are hardwired to seek out that kind of structure. But in the case of of Keith, or excuse me, in the case of Vanguard, um we what what we find is that of eventually, you know, as you said, eventually a lot of people started, uh started finding plot holes in the official narrative right of his talents, of his intelligence. And before we went on the air today, John, we were chatting just a little bit. Uh, Keith is actually as we record this today on trial, is that correct? That's correct? Yeah, I was reading the the story about it just now as well, right before we came on the air, I was treating what they were saying, and Yeah, what a day did this? Did? Uh? Did the fact that it goes yea to the fact that this has actually gone to trial. U when when you first heard about, you know, the allegations and the um the legal problems, was any of it? Was any of it deeply surprising to you? Because it sounds like by the time a lot of this stuff had come out, you had already sort of moved on from the organization. Yeah. I had been out for I'd say seven months at that point. I think it was March Febuary tween seventeen. I got a call about it. The one who recruited me, My friend called and said, I just want you to know, heads up, there's going to be some information coming you up very soon. And and in short, she just said, I've left the group, I left Mexican and um and the information is quite a disgusting And then she didn't say much more, and I was like, oh my, oh my god, Like okay, So I just started googling and and then the next day, two days more information came out. And my friend Sarah is the one who whistle blew everything. So oh my gosh, I applaud her. Wow, okay, um, I I just have a couple of questions that aren't even that important, but I'm just interested. Um, roughly, how much did it cost? Roughly how much did it cost to you know, join the group and then like be there for however many weeks? So for the first week it costs twenty four US I believe. Yeah, that's interesting. I've seen some sources saying each course was upwards of five thousand that have been for the whole course, So it's like a multi week course that would be a two week Yeah, that that'd be more of a two weeks thing. They showed you five thousands and people did. I mean, there were countless courses you could take weekend retreats, and they'd all be so expensive. And that was I think the financial um cost was one of the major factors in me getting out this before you know all this information, you know, it was just like, I'm a musician, man, My my income is limited. You know, I can't afford I can't afford a five thousand dollar weekend, and and why would I go to Albany? At least let's go to the Bahamas. You know, like, I really enjoy this. It makes it's in a way that you would have a lot of you know, doctors and lawyers and accomplished musicians and other people who are joining it. Because there is that paywall. It is kind of scary. We've heard we've heard stories before in the past of people wanting so badly to be in an organization like this that you know, loans will be taken out and um, really deteriorating financial situations. Yeah, there's there's also a bit of a I guess a sunk cost fallacy that happens with people. You know, when you get so involved, if you've spent tens of thousands of dollars on something you know, you you get to where where it might psychologically feel like a point of no return. However, in your case, John, in your case, UM, one thing that really um again, I think I'm overusing the word inspired, but one thing that inspired us was that you have used, in part your experiences with this organization as UM as a way to to to light the fire of your own artistic exploration and expression. You you made it through this experience, and would you say that this has informed the music that you're making now. Yeah. Absolutely. When I found out it was a cult, my immediate kind of thoughts were, um, oh wow, I know what I can I know what I'm going to be writing about for a while. Um. And it was hard to get away from because I started writing songs about my experience and then trying to write outside of that, my outside of the the concept of a cult was hard. It became hard for me during during the months that had passed, um since since the information came out. And I never intended to write a concept album and it's not it's not really strictly a concept album, but it's it's very influenced by my experience, and um, I do make reference most of the songs to tribalism or called called behavior called you know, outside of the typical idea of what it called his in society and how we kind of pick and choose what we want to believe. We'll just reinforce that to till the cascome home, you know. Yea, So yeah, that's that, that is definitely in there. Mhmm. Well let's let's get into this a little more. We you mentioned the song, or we both mentioned the song did what I did, and that is on the album correct, mm hmm. Okay, so this one you said it was influenced a bit by by your previous relationship. Um, let's let's go ahead and just as everybody together as a tribe. Let's listen to a clip from Did What I Did, and we'll come right back. I do what I did because I wanted to. If that's so good? Cat that after two so I was hat free, but I kept inside my winner and you wi to hide your life's wrong and I know just bads it shout. I've fought it out and I've got no w's the nation, but I don't know what the same love game away on. Okay, So in my mind, John, that song it's fantastic. By the way, that hook I've been singing in my car a lot, uh loudly and and and arrange that I'm unable to hit there's yeah. Yeah, it's really really good though, and uh it's just okay. So you told us a little bit about about what it is about. But is that all? Is that fully encompassed or is there? Um, is there anything else that's going into this song? The video, the music video, you can go online right now and watch it if you have a computer near you. It is wonderful with with children. It's a bunch of children at school who have done something terrible and they're they're taking school photos, and it's really great to see the kids dancing in this in their moment of rebellious, like their rebellious nature to do something small like t peeing a car or something um and then watching them have a like regret in that moment that they're taking the school photos. So like, did you have that feeling at some point of reveling in something than leading to just full on regret. Yeah, I have. I mean, I've had a number of those experiences through my life. Yeah. But the idea of regret is I'm not I'm not certain if if I'm totally if I'm totally regretful of Yeah. I mean I think I said earlier like I'm I don't regret going in it. But there was an element of of of Shane. I think that that started to me eight as the information came out, like, oh man, I'm I was a part of this in some way. You know, I wasn't a part of anything that was going on, of course, but but I paid money into this and I supported this man, and these people that did these things, these horrible, disgusting things to these people. So there was, you know, the rebellion of of of And I guess I didn't mention earlier. Like I grew up in church. I grew up in a Protestant kind of Baptist denomination, um. And and then I post divorce in two thousand thirteen, I kind of left the church and I stopped, I stopped being a part of it. And this sort of this organization sort of filled that void in some way, or so I thought it would. Yeah, well, I I guess just the song is so great, and you know that that main the main lyric of I did what I did because I wanted to. Um. Yeah, it's just rings so true for for I think all of us in a lot of the things we do. We we live our lives, and we to the best of our ability, we do what we would like to do. Um. You know what the consequences of these things are, they always exist in It's that butterfly effect, right, um man. Oh, it's really really good. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say here and just keep the listening to it in my mind for a little bit. You guys, go ahead and talk for a while. Okay. So, UM, what we're touching on here is is a a very personal specific story, but it's also a touchstone for larger questions that it seems our our species has um quarreled with for a long time and continues to do one thing that we thought would be UM of crucial importance to our audience here is to to hear any advice you have for people who are maybe involved in organization that that might be damaging to them, or have a loved one who is involved in something. Do you have do you have any um any insight on how how people would um navigate that kind of situation. Yeah, that's a great question. You can't come at it as an adversary because you'll just get shut down. There's there's no conversation, there's no constructive conversation UM that would happen after, you know, if you came in and as an adversary as somebody's critical of the organization. UM. But it's it's a matter of getting people to realize that there's there's something outside of it, which is tricky and it's hard to do. But it's all also very specific to that person. So, UM, what I think why called flourish is because um, a lot of people don't have safe places to go to or they don't feel like they have safe places to go to, and they don't have that if you have to fall back on, if they left the cult they have, if they don't have any or fall back on, they're only going to become more invested in it. You know. I think to turn away from something like a cult that that eventually becomes your family, your social group, your your entired um, your your entire life for evolves around this this ideology and these people, Um, it's it's tough to leave that, but it's not impossible, and it's you know a lot of people do it. They just need people. And I think it's I think what it comes down to is love. And you know, it's it's a cliche thing to say, but but people that that that leave they have those They have people around them that that care enough to to walk with them even through the time when they're in it so deep, and they'll help them come out. I mean, that's that's I guess. It's just to be present and not um and not exclude that person from their life as they have um there, you know, their family or their friends. Then again, a lot of people in the in the group kind of cut off communication with that family. How difficult was it to physically break away from the group. Were you pursued at all? Yeah? Yeah, they I got calls and I got I got questions from the the Albany office as well as um my friend who is who is kind of my recruit recruiter rather and she was asking if I was going to be coming back at any point, and I just I kind of kept putting it off. The more I was out of it, the more I realized, oh, I don't think I need this. I got what I I got some information that I I thought was good and the people were nice, but I didn't I wasn't um. We weren't living in such close quarters that they became family. The more time that passed that I was away from it was, the easier it became to detach. And that was I think about six months after I started was it was when I really kind of like just quick going, Hey, we're just going to jump in here and take a quick word from our sponsor. Then we'll get right back into it and we're back with John Bryant. Were there any other red flags that occurred to you when you were inside the organization other than the vanguard and some of the weird language and some of the spaces, because I mean, you were in it, like more from the perspective of getting being a self help situation? Right? Is that? Is that how you would characterize it? Yeah? Yeah, just from a learning standpoint, I thought it was a really interesting thing to do. So what were if any any other red flags that you saw, whether it was with talking to people that you have, any interaction with folks that were in this inner circle, or maybe things signs that later when you had more context you could kind of put together maybe there was something going on that I just didn't understand the full scope of Yeah. I I remember telling somebody there that I'd like to tell my girlfriends about some of this stuff, and it was very like it wasn't taken well, and it was it was highly discouraged talking about what I was learning, talking about some stuff that I was, you know, learning through. Um. That was really weird that that gave me kind of shivers. Um just being being told that I can't I can't talk about what I'm what I'm doing here. That was that was the biggest thing, is like, you're taking my freedom of speech and a way, you're you're disabling my my autonomy because I I should be able to talk about stuff. Did you have to sign any kind of India or any kind of paperwork when you signed up like that? You know, kind of codified that closed stuff? Yeah? Yeah, I mean Claire Bronfman has gone after lots of people that have talked and spoken out about what's you know, what was going on. Even back in two thousand twelve, there were some things that were coming some odd uh I don't know exactly what it was, but but she she sued people. She really went after you. And she's she's the daughter of the Seagram's uh fortune, so she's a she's half a billion dollars net worth, so she has the financial means to go after these people and really hurt them. So a lot of people. That's why there wasn't a whole lot of when I kind of got into it, I did some research and I couldn't find a whole lot about it because I think she just went after people and and and sue them. We're threatened to sue them. Wow. So the things. Okay, the stuff that they literally don't want you to know. Um, people are being prosecuted for that stuff right now. But when it gets to the when it gets to the I guess the spiritual belief system or the higher higher level belief system. Is there any of that that we can talk about? Where is that all the the no, don't talk about it stuff. Um. They didn't push any any specific spiritual doctrines. They it seems they seemed pretty humanist, like we have the potential two to be like God's in a way. That's what it That's what it came across as at least, and and Keith is the one guy who's accessed all this knowledge. So it seems it felt like psychology meets scientology, but without any of the reading. So they did they did. They did these things called e ms that were UM emotional it's exploration of meaning you'd sit on a chair and then the the group leader would walk you through, Um what yeah, an exploration. I mean you go through you go into your childhood. If you had some sort of hang up in your life, say anger, or you you you can't be on time, or you you blurt out you know such and such at the wrong time or you know, anything that to hang up in your life, you can go back and you can find the moment in your life when that started, and you can change that narrative. So it was it was quasi psychology scientology kind of stuff. And and you know, if if people had jealousy issues, they they miraculously stop being jealous where they'd stopped getting angry. So that's really dude. That's really interesting though, because it's also just counseling or you know, I mean, it's something that a lot of us probably need, us, myself included. So it's that's real. That's that's fascinating. Yeah, I think now that I've done a bit of research, you know, it's been a few years, I've done research on what you know, the scientific community, the psychological community have said about similar things, and it seems like he just took a lot of different ideas from different branches of of of education and psychology and science. You just sort of like repackage and rebranded this this belief system. You haven't really talked about it. He's being charged for child pornography and having sex with a fifteen year old and it's really gruesome stuff. Um, and he and he got people to go along with it, and and people knew and nothing was done well. And not to mention this kind of subgroup that Alison Mack and others were involved in, the kind of recruiting of the I guess the personal yeah, the inner circle, but it really felt more like recruiting personal members of some kind of secret harem almost I guess that was just for the leader or the vanguard. Um. How does that hit you is? I mean that that almost seems like even that was lower buried, more so than even the kind of surface level strange dealings that were going on. This was something that only certain people knew that was directly you know, for the sexual supplication of this man. Yeah, I mean that was that was quite a shock to the system. I mean that was that was the moment of like of shame, I think of being a part of the group like that or being associated in any way with that. Yeah, that that felt weird and an uncomfortable feeling. Again, it just you know, allowed me to write. And that's that's kind of what I really glean from it was this this discomfort, So now I kind of search out for discomfort. I want to be uncomfortable and in life too, to a point. You know, I don't want to I don't I don't want suffering, but I think it's good to be uncomfortable and to be put in difficult situations because well, you learned, you learned so much from it. Absolutely agree. You know that it's funny because sometimes we give we give cliches a rough time, but cliches are often only cliches because they're true and the things that we survive do make us stronger in the end, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I've been so much for sure. Well, John, we're gonna play another one of your songs, at least a clip from it. It's a song called Cultivated. Can you tell us about it before we we play it, because we're going to play the song and then we'll come back and wrap up the show. Um, just tell us about Cultivated. Yeah. So, Cultivated was written sort of from the perspective of a relationship, but the overarching relationship of like the the cult member to the cult is sort of what I'm sort of using the imagery of the metaphors to emphasize that sort of relationship. But it could be, you know, a toxic relationship between you know, lovers or between family members. So um yeah. It just emphasizes how difficult it is for people believe. And it's about some of my friends that were in it, and we're stuck in it for so long, and and you've lost so much of their life and their energy to it. Man, there's some great lyrics in this thing. All right, well, let's go ahead and listen to this. This is cultivated by John Bryant. M h. It's suffixation. I'm cultivating it. It's not what I do, but what you want. But now you're asking for the primness out game. Keep you like to see me on money, pagging for the silent when you scream, sticking damp to the dance of Fieltion, hanging on to do it my love? I like on all likely, I don't know under the water fills my this ground wash has swallowed up. It's you. You can follow from this game see secretcy Side when you stream. Oh man, this is another song that is now just rattling around in my head. Thank you so much, Sean. Because he will not leave. It's going to be there wherever. Oh Unfortunately, we we won't have the episode going on forever. We wish we could play the whole album of folks. You'll have to you'll have to hear it for yourselves. But there is one last thing that we absolutely could not could not let go while we while we had you here with us on the show. And uh, that's that's the music video. Let's talk a little bit about that. Yeah two to me, I mean, the video is as compelling as the song. Um it. It depicts what you could describe as a cult kind of ritual or a recruitment process, but it's more the kind of Manson type cults of the sixties where there's some kind of guru given people what presumably is LSD or could be something else and it doesn't really doesn't really matter. But it also or like you know, it's it's like almost I look at it's like a metaphor for like this offering of truth and then it all kind of on wines and becomes you know, you see what this really means. And it parallels the lyrics in the song too. Can you kind of walk us through a little bit just just it's also just a baptism that's actually what I see. I see a baptism um when because I grew up Christian too, But so anyway, let's just put that in there. Yeah, I uh, you certainly touched on a lot of what the video was intended to demonstrate, um and and growing up Christian, you know, I used I used some of the strange kind of offshoot Christian cult like the you know groups that that sell these products to you know, that that will heal you, or that will give you enlightenments and will make your lives better. You'll you'll you'll get money, or you'll get fame, or you'll get you know, all your all your ailments will lead you. And the idea was we we made an infommercial that that was before the song. Now it's a separate part of the video, I think, but you can still see it. It's on my YouTube page where you know it's this man it was. It was really weird to release it because no one knew what was going on. We just released the infommercial first, and then a few weeks later we released the video with the informercial um. So people were like, what the heck is it going on? You man, this is so weird, Um, what are what's going on? John? And uh, But basically it sets it up this man is super positive. He's he's he's uh, he's kind of the guru type, but he's he's sort of like a failing also sort of a failing cult leader like he he's sort of doesn't look like the success story that that usually cult leaders project. Um. And then the video happens and that you see this group lined up and they're always seeing this this this magical elixir, this tincture of of whatever their dreams or whatever they want in life. That's kind of what it represents, um, so enlightenment or healing or whatever. And then the video ends with them all dying, they all perish, they'll you know, fall prey to this man, and this man uh walks away, and then throughout the video, I'm kind of singing the song and then at the end of it, I help him. I'm the one that survived or I'm his his his protege, and I'm filming him for his next his next video, which is kind of throwing it back to the informercial. So it's very dark. It's a very dark, somber video, and the informercial is the complete opposite. It's very corny and and uh and lighthearted. Yeah, see now, in my mind. In my mind, that was taking us back in time to show you shooting the first video with him as like you were the you were the inside guy. Basically, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, that that's that's that's also the one of the ways that we kind of wanted it to be interpreted. Either that or or I'm helping him on the next one. But yes, either or either way. Super creepy and wonderful video to an awesome song. Don't take our word for it. You can check that out today. John Bryant, thank you so much for coming on the show with us, and thank you for introducing everyone to a peek behind the curtain. I think we can all agree that these sorts of experiences are always intensely personal, and it's powerful to be able to to speak with someone who has firsthand experience with things that you know, many people just read about in the paper weeks after it happens. So again, as I said, we'd love to play the full album on our show, but but I don't think we could get away with that. Network said we could, but I don't know. We'll see. Maybe maybe after the album yeah around, Yeah, maybe we should wait till the album's out. But in the meantime, where can our listeners go if they would like to hear more of your work or learn more about your process in your music. Um, you can go to my any platform that that has my music, which would be Spotify, Apple, Pandora, Amazon, um and any of the major ones deser in France, like it's it's everywhere. All my music is online and you can listen for free on YouTube, um or or those platforms. And then I have a website as well that that has a bio and all that. So people want to learn more, please follow me on Instagram kind of on my day to day. I'm pretty active on that and then uh yeah, lot lots coming out though in the next few weeks with videos and then um the album comes out on May seventeen. So yeah, just gearing up for a big year, lots of touring in North America, Europe and in Australia. Yeah, it's very exciting. Are you. Are you touring with anybody in particular? Uh, in Europe with Radical Face and then in North America we're still figuring that out, remember Radical Face. Yeah that's awesome. Yeah, Well, let us know if you make it down to Atlanta. We will. You know, it's not the perfect city, but we have we have amazing food. I've dealt with that I would love. I'm I'm so sad I'm not there right now. We were hoping to do it in person, but maybe we can do it again. And either way, hit us up when your back and we'll have a beer and just chat more about music and cults. Yes, and we want to come to your concert, so yeah, just let us know. In the meantime, I'll join another cult and then write another album so we can do this again in two years. Yeah, sounds like you're really taking one for the team, my friend. Okay, good because I was next up in our cult rotation, so I'll dodge that one, okay. So thanks as thanks as always to our super producer Paul Mission Controlled Decond. Thanks to you, John Bryant. Check out the music stay tuned for the album coming out in May. We want to hear your stories, folks, your personal experiences with the organizations. When did you learn that something you thought was maybe self help or multi level marketing or something. When did you learn that there was something amiss? You can let us know about your stories on our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy or Instagram or Twitter. We're all over the place on the internet. Yeah, and if you don't want to do that stuff, you can call us and leave a voicemail. You get three minutes. Uh, it's it's pretty great. You can leave five three minute messages if you want to tell us a whole story, or you can keep it super brief. Either way, we'd be happy to hear from you, and you might get on the air. Our number is one eight three three st d w y t K. I've been listening to messages all week. Y'all are amazing. Keep doing it. Uh, okay, But if you don't want to leave a message, you don't want to do that stuff, you don't like social media, you can also contact us the good old fashioned way. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. M Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.