Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning with the second part of our two part interview with Mike Render. We're asking questions in this one, like how many members does the Church of Scientology actually have, what's going on in Clearwater, Florida. And I think this interview was very important to all of us because Mike does a fantastic job of fielding questions. I think is very fair and he's perhaps most importantly speaking from experience.

Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning with the second part of our two part interview with Mike Render. We're asking questions in this one, like how many members does the Church of Scientology actually have, what's going on in Clearwater, Florida. And I think this interview was very important to all of us because Mike does a fantastic job of fielding questions. I think is very fair and he's perhaps most importantly speaking from experience.

I thought you were gonna say fair game. Sorry, well, he certainly was.

I thought you were gonna say fair game. Sorry, well, he certainly was.

Do we want to talk about what fair game is for a second?

Do we want to talk about what fair game is for a second?

Yeah, I believe you may have covered in the first episode, but just as a refresher, it's just the concept within Scientology of anybody who is speaking out against Scientology as being someone who is an acceptable target. And that can mean everything from following around, surveilling, docsing, any number of kind of nefarious ways of messing with people's lives. So I've spoken out against the church.

Yeah, I believe you may have covered in the first episode, but just as a refresher, it's just the concept within Scientology of anybody who is speaking out against Scientology as being someone who is an acceptable target. And that can mean everything from following around, surveilling, docsing, any number of kind of nefarious ways of messing with people's lives. So I've spoken out against the church.

Bullying, character assassination, violent retribution. We also want to shout out the show that Mike was helming at the time of this interview, which is Scientology fair Game.

Bullying, character assassination, violent retribution. We also want to shout out the show that Mike was helming at the time of this interview, which is Scientology fair Game.

That's right.

That's right.

Let's roll part two of our interview with Mike Grender.

Let's roll part two of our interview with Mike Grender.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nola.

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nola.

They call me Ben.

They call me Ben.

We are joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, you are here, and that this stuff they don't want you to know? It is part two in our two part interview with Mike Render, the co creator of Scientology. Fair Game, a deep dive into a controversial organization and institution with exclusive access. We don't want to say too much. What do you see?

We are joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, you are here, and that this stuff they don't want you to know? It is part two in our two part interview with Mike Render, the co creator of Scientology. Fair Game, a deep dive into a controversial organization and institution with exclusive access. We don't want to say too much. What do you see?

We get right into it.

We get right into it.

I think that's a smart thing. Just remember you should listen to episode one first, the first part of this series. Please do it if you haven't yet.

I think that's a smart thing. Just remember you should listen to episode one first, the first part of this series. Please do it if you haven't yet.

Cool.

Cool.

All right, So, Mike, I'm imagining I'm an individual because I've never been a part of the Church of Scientology. I thought about getting audited once a long time ago. But I'm imagining I'm an individual who's going up the bridge or I'm traversing the bridge. Right, I've been paying, like you're saying, tons of money, almost everything I have, if not more. And I get to a certain point that a lot of people in the past have talked about, that has been made fun of by south Park and all these other people. You get to a certain point in the bridge where you're revealed very secret information that anyone who is behind you on the bridge is not going to know, and you're not going to know unless you're shown this secret piece of paper and has something to do with stuff that you can't that in my mind, a science fiction writer would come up with, can you tell us about that point?

All right, So, Mike, I'm imagining I'm an individual because I've never been a part of the Church of Scientology. I thought about getting audited once a long time ago. But I'm imagining I'm an individual who's going up the bridge or I'm traversing the bridge. Right, I've been paying, like you're saying, tons of money, almost everything I have, if not more. And I get to a certain point that a lot of people in the past have talked about, that has been made fun of by south Park and all these other people. You get to a certain point in the bridge where you're revealed very secret information that anyone who is behind you on the bridge is not going to know, and you're not going to know unless you're shown this secret piece of paper and has something to do with stuff that you can't that in my mind, a science fiction writer would come up with, can you tell us about that point?

Yes?

Yes?

Can you I know exactly right, Can you tell us about that point?

Can you I know exactly right, Can you tell us about that point?

What it is?

What it is?

And the mental gymnastics maybe that one has to do in order to continue on the bridge?

And the mental gymnastics maybe that one has to do in order to continue on the bridge?

Absolutely. That point is called O T three and that stands for operating Thetan, and Thetan in scientology, terminology means you the spirit yourself, not your body, not your mind, but the essence of being the id whatever you know. There's lots of terms for it, but in scientology it's called the Thetan, and operating Thetan is the ultimate objective of moving up the bridge to become capable as a spiritual being of transcending the the world in scientology is called mess matter, energy, space, and time to transcend those things as a spiritual being, because ultimately everybody is a spiritual being who that has enormous power and created this whole universe and can control this whole universe, but has lost those abilities and scientology restores them. And part of this is this thing called OT three, which Hubbard wrote and you you say, you only a science fiction writer could have come up with it, and it is definitely, you know, sort of Buck Rudgers kind of science fiction. It is the story of the galactic ruler called Xenu x e Nu, who controlled two hundred and seventy eight planets of the Galactic Confederacy seventy five million years ago, was trying to solve an over population problem of having you know, I can't even remember how many billions of people. But he had to get rid of a bunch of them, so he called them in for a tax audit and tricked them and loaded them into spaceships frozen in glycol and flew them to planet Earth as a dumping ground for these people to get rid of them. They were all the racalcit tree, the artists, the the troublemakers of society, and he dropped them into volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs, and they, those spiritual Thetan beings are now stuck to you, every person on planet Earth, all over your body, thousands and thousands of them, and they control and influence your thoughts and actions.

Absolutely. That point is called O T three and that stands for operating Thetan, and Thetan in scientology, terminology means you the spirit yourself, not your body, not your mind, but the essence of being the id whatever you know. There's lots of terms for it, but in scientology it's called the Thetan, and operating Thetan is the ultimate objective of moving up the bridge to become capable as a spiritual being of transcending the the world in scientology is called mess matter, energy, space, and time to transcend those things as a spiritual being, because ultimately everybody is a spiritual being who that has enormous power and created this whole universe and can control this whole universe, but has lost those abilities and scientology restores them. And part of this is this thing called OT three, which Hubbard wrote and you you say, you only a science fiction writer could have come up with it, and it is definitely, you know, sort of Buck Rudgers kind of science fiction. It is the story of the galactic ruler called Xenu x e Nu, who controlled two hundred and seventy eight planets of the Galactic Confederacy seventy five million years ago, was trying to solve an over population problem of having you know, I can't even remember how many billions of people. But he had to get rid of a bunch of them, so he called them in for a tax audit and tricked them and loaded them into spaceships frozen in glycol and flew them to planet Earth as a dumping ground for these people to get rid of them. They were all the racalcit tree, the artists, the the troublemakers of society, and he dropped them into volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs, and they, those spiritual Thetan beings are now stuck to you, every person on planet Earth, all over your body, thousands and thousands of them, and they control and influence your thoughts and actions.

But true, this is like a creation myth or something. This is like the Jonah and the Whale story. It's meant to be like a parable, right or is this people intended to get?

But true, this is like a creation myth or something. This is like the Jonah and the Whale story. It's meant to be like a parable, right or is this people intended to get?

No, it's literal. It's not a parable. Okay, okay, okay, I mean yeah, Well, I mean Noah and they are. I mean there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians that believe that is a literal story, and a lot of these other things are literal stories. Scientologists. One thing about scientology. Everybody is a fundamentalist in scientology. There's no there is no I'm sort of a reform Jew kind of guy. I'm kind of an ethnically a Catholic. I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic. Nope, you're a scientologist one hundred percent, or you're not at all. You are you will get accused of squirrelly exactly exactly. In fact, the fundamental, the fundamental policy that al Ron Hubbard wrote is called keeping Scientology working, and in it it goes on and on and on, but in it he says, I'd rather have you dead than incapable or not a true committed scientologist. So scientologists uh expected to believe this and have it sort of when when when you're first exposed to this, it's supposed to be like a magnificent revelation. Oh my god, Oh I get it, Oh my god. And there are people standing around watching you like, oh what is it? Oh what's this reaction going to be? So you have to sort of react. And Leah and I and a lot of other people have talked about this subsequently, and you go, wow, this is like seriously, this is what this is about? Shit, what am I supposed to do with this? And this is where the genius of Hubbard and the E meter comes in, because all these people who have already been there will say to you, listen, you don't have to believe a word of it. See if it reads on the E meter. Just see if it reads on the E meter. And if it does, you don't have to believe it. You just do it. You just go along with it, because the E meter will tell you whether it's true or not. Now, this E meter is a fascinating device that I haven't yet fully been able to understand. But a lot of people say, well, it just it just reacts to sweat on the palm of your hands and this and that, and I that's not true. It doesn't. It reacts to more than that. And there's a terrific movie by do you know who Tom Shaddyak is. He's a He was the director of of Uh, What's that? Jim Carrey Pet Detectives, Ace Venture of Pet Detection and and he he was a very successful director and producer. And he had a horrendous bicycling accident and nearly killed himself, and he woke up from a coma or something and he decided, I got to figure out what the meaning of life is. And he made this film called I Am and it is him going around the world seeking to get an understanding of what is life. And part of this I found fascinating, Well, all of it's fascinating, but there's a particular thing in there where he goes to see these quantum physicists, and they say, look, and you know, I don't want to get into all the subject of quantum physics, but it's a fascinating thing. And they have this This sounds crazy, but they have a bowl of yogurt sitting in front of him with these electrodes stuck in this bowl of yogurt, and they say, we want to show you that emotion can transfer from one living organism to another, and that this is a real thing. And I will say to you, guys, look, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I certainly have. Where you walk into a room and there is someone in there, and without seeing or talking to them, you know they're upset. There is a vibe that you get. There's a there's upset in this room, and something is emanating upset and it's not it's not a statement, but in any event, this, this ball of yogurt is sat down in front of Tom and they start asking him questions and he's looking at this little meeda that is measuring some sort of electrical impulse in the yogat. Because yogurt is a live organism, it's got you know whatever they call those things in there that that what's called cultures? Yeah, cultures? Yeah, you know that? That for your guts? Yeah, exactly that. What's the name promotes on TV? I can't even think of the name now, oh my god from from Halloween.

No, it's literal. It's not a parable. Okay, okay, okay, I mean yeah, Well, I mean Noah and they are. I mean there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians that believe that is a literal story, and a lot of these other things are literal stories. Scientologists. One thing about scientology. Everybody is a fundamentalist in scientology. There's no there is no I'm sort of a reform Jew kind of guy. I'm kind of an ethnically a Catholic. I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic. Nope, you're a scientologist one hundred percent, or you're not at all. You are you will get accused of squirrelly exactly exactly. In fact, the fundamental, the fundamental policy that al Ron Hubbard wrote is called keeping Scientology working, and in it it goes on and on and on, but in it he says, I'd rather have you dead than incapable or not a true committed scientologist. So scientologists uh expected to believe this and have it sort of when when when you're first exposed to this, it's supposed to be like a magnificent revelation. Oh my god, Oh I get it, Oh my god. And there are people standing around watching you like, oh what is it? Oh what's this reaction going to be? So you have to sort of react. And Leah and I and a lot of other people have talked about this subsequently, and you go, wow, this is like seriously, this is what this is about? Shit, what am I supposed to do with this? And this is where the genius of Hubbard and the E meter comes in, because all these people who have already been there will say to you, listen, you don't have to believe a word of it. See if it reads on the E meter. Just see if it reads on the E meter. And if it does, you don't have to believe it. You just do it. You just go along with it, because the E meter will tell you whether it's true or not. Now, this E meter is a fascinating device that I haven't yet fully been able to understand. But a lot of people say, well, it just it just reacts to sweat on the palm of your hands and this and that, and I that's not true. It doesn't. It reacts to more than that. And there's a terrific movie by do you know who Tom Shaddyak is. He's a He was the director of of Uh, What's that? Jim Carrey Pet Detectives, Ace Venture of Pet Detection and and he he was a very successful director and producer. And he had a horrendous bicycling accident and nearly killed himself, and he woke up from a coma or something and he decided, I got to figure out what the meaning of life is. And he made this film called I Am and it is him going around the world seeking to get an understanding of what is life. And part of this I found fascinating, Well, all of it's fascinating, but there's a particular thing in there where he goes to see these quantum physicists, and they say, look, and you know, I don't want to get into all the subject of quantum physics, but it's a fascinating thing. And they have this This sounds crazy, but they have a bowl of yogurt sitting in front of him with these electrodes stuck in this bowl of yogurt, and they say, we want to show you that emotion can transfer from one living organism to another, and that this is a real thing. And I will say to you, guys, look, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I certainly have. Where you walk into a room and there is someone in there, and without seeing or talking to them, you know they're upset. There is a vibe that you get. There's a there's upset in this room, and something is emanating upset and it's not it's not a statement, but in any event, this, this ball of yogurt is sat down in front of Tom and they start asking him questions and he's looking at this little meeda that is measuring some sort of electrical impulse in the yogat. Because yogurt is a live organism, it's got you know whatever they call those things in there that that what's called cultures? Yeah, cultures? Yeah, you know that? That for your guts? Yeah, exactly that. What's the name promotes on TV? I can't even think of the name now, oh my god from from Halloween.

Jim.

Jim.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. In any event, they they they're talking to you about all this stuff and then they say, now, Tom, what about the divorce with your wife? And this little dial goes and he's like, yeah, this is a saw subject for me. And he like goes, oh my god, how did how did the yogurt know? And this.

Yeah. In any event, they they they're talking to you about all this stuff and then they say, now, Tom, what about the divorce with your wife? And this little dial goes and he's like, yeah, this is a saw subject for me. And he like goes, oh my god, how did how did the yogurt know? And this.

That's real, that's real, that actually happens.

That's real, that's real, that actually happens.

Yes, it's in the film. It's it is really interesting. And see, I have a lot of experience with the E meter, and I know that it's not just physical. There is an a mental emotional. Now what it is and how it works and all that sort of stuff, I don't know. But if you sell a secret, is there a schematic? Like is that? Who desires? Like where's the patent to design for the em Where does that live?

Yes, it's in the film. It's it is really interesting. And see, I have a lot of experience with the E meter, and I know that it's not just physical. There is an a mental emotional. Now what it is and how it works and all that sort of stuff, I don't know. But if you sell a secret, is there a schematic? Like is that? Who desires? Like where's the patent to design for the em Where does that live?

Like?

Like?

Where is that like in the in the US patent office? Seriously, it's in the US. Will never know? Yeah, okay, well, no, you can go it's a it's a it's yes, it's a wheatstone bridge. That is what it is. It's a sophisticated wheatstone bridge. What is interesting in scientology is that l Ron Hubbards said that the reactions that you get on that meta will if you study scientology, you can interpret those reactions. And this is a This is the incredible trick of it, because you have someone sitting on the other side of you who can see the meter and you cannot, and he says, well, you're scientology says you've got something undisclosed that you haven't told me, so what is it? And you have no idea what's happening on the other side. But even if you did, I'm only going in this long rambling thing because what happens is if you can convince someone that if you have a thought, I can tell you what it is and I can read it using this little meta here, then you're home free because you just sit on the You just sit there and go, well, there was a reaction, so this means that. And people say to you, well, you can look on the meta. Does this read on the meta? Is this bullshit about blowing up people in volcanoes reading on the meta or not. And when you instill in someone the idea that that is reality, then all you need, I don't know, maybe the reaction that you get when you're looking at it is this is a bunch of bullshit. But if you've convinced them that means it's true, then it becomes true. This is all subjective. There is no objective verification of any of this. There's no objective verification that Xenu existed seventy five million years ago. It's all subjective. And if you can persuade someone that this is what this means and this is really true because x and this is really true because why, then that's all you have to accomplish. It doesn't have to be real. You just have to get them to believe it in their head. And that's what l Ron Hubbin and Scientology is so brilliant at.

Where is that like in the in the US patent office? Seriously, it's in the US. Will never know? Yeah, okay, well, no, you can go it's a it's a it's yes, it's a wheatstone bridge. That is what it is. It's a sophisticated wheatstone bridge. What is interesting in scientology is that l Ron Hubbards said that the reactions that you get on that meta will if you study scientology, you can interpret those reactions. And this is a This is the incredible trick of it, because you have someone sitting on the other side of you who can see the meter and you cannot, and he says, well, you're scientology says you've got something undisclosed that you haven't told me, so what is it? And you have no idea what's happening on the other side. But even if you did, I'm only going in this long rambling thing because what happens is if you can convince someone that if you have a thought, I can tell you what it is and I can read it using this little meta here, then you're home free because you just sit on the You just sit there and go, well, there was a reaction, so this means that. And people say to you, well, you can look on the meta. Does this read on the meta? Is this bullshit about blowing up people in volcanoes reading on the meta or not. And when you instill in someone the idea that that is reality, then all you need, I don't know, maybe the reaction that you get when you're looking at it is this is a bunch of bullshit. But if you've convinced them that means it's true, then it becomes true. This is all subjective. There is no objective verification of any of this. There's no objective verification that Xenu existed seventy five million years ago. It's all subjective. And if you can persuade someone that this is what this means and this is really true because x and this is really true because why, then that's all you have to accomplish. It doesn't have to be real. You just have to get them to believe it in their head. And that's what l Ron Hubbin and Scientology is so brilliant at.

And with that, we're going to take a quick break here from a sponsor, but we will return.

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Shortly and we're back with more from Mike Renter. I have a question on this concept right of perception, because we know Scientology is very, very sensitive to its public image, right, as you've discussed Mike, Right, Yeah, one thing that I've heard pretty often is a great deal of speculation about how many scientologists actually exist, because there have been claims that like Scientology will say we have x amount of members, and then there are claims from outsiders who say that number is is not correct, usually that it's a smaller number. Could you speak to that, like, is Scientology conflating the number of members or is what's going on there?

Shortly and we're back with more from Mike Renter. I have a question on this concept right of perception, because we know Scientology is very, very sensitive to its public image, right, as you've discussed Mike, Right, Yeah, one thing that I've heard pretty often is a great deal of speculation about how many scientologists actually exist, because there have been claims that like Scientology will say we have x amount of members, and then there are claims from outsiders who say that number is is not correct, usually that it's a smaller number. Could you speak to that, like, is Scientology conflating the number of members or is what's going on there?

Yeah, they count all the body thetans. That's a joke, is that that's what that's what those little things a call body thetans. No, Scientology loves to say that they've got millions of members or ten million or twelve million or fourteen million or whatever. It's complete bullshit, complete bullshit. And I will tell you it's complete bullshit because I remember when I was in the Office of Special Affairs, Heba Jentch, who was at the time the president of Church of Scientology International, was being interviewed on the media and he said something when asked the question how many scientologists are there? And he said like four million, And David Muskavich flipped his lid. And so we've been saying, we've been saying we were expanding all over the world, and we said four million five years ago, so how can it still be four million? Make it eight?

Yeah, they count all the body thetans. That's a joke, is that that's what that's what those little things a call body thetans. No, Scientology loves to say that they've got millions of members or ten million or twelve million or fourteen million or whatever. It's complete bullshit, complete bullshit. And I will tell you it's complete bullshit because I remember when I was in the Office of Special Affairs, Heba Jentch, who was at the time the president of Church of Scientology International, was being interviewed on the media and he said something when asked the question how many scientologists are there? And he said like four million, And David Muskavich flipped his lid. And so we've been saying, we've been saying we were expanding all over the world, and we said four million five years ago, so how can it still be four million? Make it eight?

Just make it eight.

Just make it eight.

Yeah, double it. We've been saying that, so just double it. Give it. Who cares, It doesn't matter, And the truth of the matter is there is probably my estimate is that there is twenty thousand scientologists in the world. And interestingly, Tony or Tega just last week who who has a log called the Underground Bunker, and he's been reporting on scientology since I don't know, since l Ron Hubbard was still alive, you know that long ago. He Scientology recently put out something that if you reverse engineered the numbers they gave, it indicated that there were six thousand SEOG members in scientology. That that's based on their numbers, and six thousand SEOG members in Scientology, believe it or not, equates to about twenty thousand scientologists. Yes, it's there is a lot more people who have and largely these days, SEOG members are easier to get than new scientologists for two reasons. It's very difficult to persuade anybody to come in and get involved in scientology, and not to google it, like really, and as soon as anybody googles it, it's like the game is over. They ain't going anywhere near it again. However, there are two exceptions to that. One, children of scientologists the offspring of existing scientologists tend to end up in the Sea Organization if they remain a scientologist through up until they become a teenager.

Yeah, double it. We've been saying that, so just double it. Give it. Who cares, It doesn't matter, And the truth of the matter is there is probably my estimate is that there is twenty thousand scientologists in the world. And interestingly, Tony or Tega just last week who who has a log called the Underground Bunker, and he's been reporting on scientology since I don't know, since l Ron Hubbard was still alive, you know that long ago. He Scientology recently put out something that if you reverse engineered the numbers they gave, it indicated that there were six thousand SEOG members in scientology. That that's based on their numbers, and six thousand SEOG members in Scientology, believe it or not, equates to about twenty thousand scientologists. Yes, it's there is a lot more people who have and largely these days, SEOG members are easier to get than new scientologists for two reasons. It's very difficult to persuade anybody to come in and get involved in scientology, and not to google it, like really, and as soon as anybody googles it, it's like the game is over. They ain't going anywhere near it again. However, there are two exceptions to that. One, children of scientologists the offspring of existing scientologists tend to end up in the Sea Organization if they remain a scientologist through up until they become a teenager.

Sea Org is like essentially scientology boot camp, right, wouldn't you say, or.

Sea Org is like essentially scientology boot camp, right, wouldn't you say, or.

A scientology life. It's like full time living, eating, and working inside scientology organizations.

A scientology life. It's like full time living, eating, and working inside scientology organizations.

But in going clear, there's a whole part of it where the early Sea org was all of these almost sensory deprivation things of like really whipping people into shape to be completely complicit in everything that scientology was about, like you know, swabbing the decks and all of this kind of stuff, and oh, people getting injured like that aspect.

But in going clear, there's a whole part of it where the early Sea org was all of these almost sensory deprivation things of like really whipping people into shape to be completely complicit in everything that scientology was about, like you know, swabbing the decks and all of this kind of stuff, and oh, people getting injured like that aspect.

I just wondering, Yeah, every person joins the organization does that for the first couple of months. That's like that is the bootcamp of the Sea ORC. And the second type of person that Scientology manages to recruit at this point is people from third world countries or very poor or oppressed areas like Eastern Europe or Central and South America. And they will promise those people that they will bring them to the United States and get them a visa and give them a how you know, somewhere to live and food, and all they have to do is work. And for many of those people, the the idea of going to the unit and living in the United States under any circumstances where a guaranteed job and food is like is like a dream come true. And they don't have access to the Internet, and they you know, they wouldn't know what to google anyway. They're just told by someone, look, you know, here's an opportunity for you. And so you find, like in Clearwater that a bunch of those Sea OGG members down there hardly speak English and are literally have become indentured servants because now they're stuck they can't get out. And it really is a human trafficking violation. This aspect of scientology is in violation of human trafficking laws, and if the law enforcement agencies responsible for that could get their act together, they would be able to bring an effective case on human trafficking.

I just wondering, Yeah, every person joins the organization does that for the first couple of months. That's like that is the bootcamp of the Sea ORC. And the second type of person that Scientology manages to recruit at this point is people from third world countries or very poor or oppressed areas like Eastern Europe or Central and South America. And they will promise those people that they will bring them to the United States and get them a visa and give them a how you know, somewhere to live and food, and all they have to do is work. And for many of those people, the the idea of going to the unit and living in the United States under any circumstances where a guaranteed job and food is like is like a dream come true. And they don't have access to the Internet, and they you know, they wouldn't know what to google anyway. They're just told by someone, look, you know, here's an opportunity for you. And so you find, like in Clearwater that a bunch of those Sea OGG members down there hardly speak English and are literally have become indentured servants because now they're stuck they can't get out. And it really is a human trafficking violation. This aspect of scientology is in violation of human trafficking laws, and if the law enforcement agencies responsible for that could get their act together, they would be able to bring an effective case on human trafficking.

Mike, you're talking about Clearwater again. Okay. My grandparents retired in Clearwater and I was there quite often visiting them. When I was a kid and my grandfather would tell me stories and I was never sure how true they were.

Mike, you're talking about Clearwater again. Okay. My grandparents retired in Clearwater and I was there quite often visiting them. When I was a kid and my grandfather would tell me stories and I was never sure how true they were.

But there were.

But there were.

Stories about how the city of Clearwater was being taken over by Scientology, like lots large I guess large amounts of property were being purchased, their Scientology was infiltrating the local government there, and a lot of how everything was working. Was there any truth.

Stories about how the city of Clearwater was being taken over by Scientology, like lots large I guess large amounts of property were being purchased, their Scientology was infiltrating the local government there, and a lot of how everything was working. Was there any truth.

To that, Uh, that's absolutely true. In fact, there was a except for the taking over the government and I'll explain. Okay. There was a really, really good article written by a reporter for the Tampa Bay Times called Tracy McManus last year where she documented the efforts that Scientology has made to buy property in downtown Clearwater and look, Scientology for a long time has owned a lot of property in downtown clear Water. It dominates the downtown area with its buildings, but it had David Muskavich wanted a certain piece of property that was owned by the Clearwater Aquarium, which is, you know, the home to winter the Dolphin, and the people in charge of the aquarium did not want to sell it to Scientology. They wanted to sell it to the city and had an agreement with the city that the city was going to purchase it and David and for four million dollars or something. And David Muscavich one of this piece of property so badly. He came in and offered fourteen million for it for a piece of vacant property, a block, you know, half a block of vacant property in downtown clear Water. And they and David Yates, who was the head of the aquarium, said I'm sorry, I made a commitment to the city. I am going to sell it to the city for their redevelopment plans. And David Muskavich had a hissy fit, started accused and putting out all sorts of of I like, he had lawyers writing letters to Panelis County into this and that about how David Yeats was a criminal and that he was ripping off the he was getting paid too much and he was ripping off the city and blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and went on an all out campaign against David Yeates. Mascavitch had been trying to smooth schmooze the city for a long time and saying I will redevelop downtown clear Water and we'll bring in a movie theater, and we'll do this, and we'll do that, and we'll you know, all these fancy presentations that were done. And when the city bought that lot, he went, you know what, fuck you all when no longer cooperating and cut all communication with the city, And then a whole bunch of individuals signed tall just started purchasing property in downtown Clearwater for cash. Wow, and against that, right, against that, and bought like a hundred properties. And downtown Clearwater has it's not that big, matt as you know, it's like a it's not a very big place. Most of Clearwater exists at the beach and out by the mall, and downtown is not that big. And so they basically bought the whole town. Interestingly, the one thing they have never been able to do is get anybody elected. You know. Scientology has claimed that they had like twelve thousand members in the Clearwater community and they have a huge voting block and blah blah blah, and that's bullshit. I known that that was bullshit it for a long time, but now in particular because most of the people that are in the Sea Organization there, which is most of the Scientologists come from Eastern Europe and Central America. They can't even vote. They're not citizens that can vote, so they have no big voting blocks. So last year, me and another one of my buddies in that lives down there and who appeared on the Aftermath, Aaron Smith Levin Leah and I did a show or two shows about Clearwater actually, and we interviewed this guy called Mark Bunker. And Mark Bunker anybody who watched the show will remember the episode where Mark Bunker was sitting on a bench in a park that Scientology owns and six police cars came to a victim from the bench. Okay, we jokingly said to Mark Bunker, you should run for mayor, and then became a little more serious about it. And there was an election earlier this year for the city Council of the City of Clearwater, and Mark Bunker ran in that election, and he ran basically exclusively on the basis of I'm not scared of Scientology, and I will say the word, and most politicians in Clearwater have been afraid to even out of the word. They will say the organization in our midst, or all religious all religions deserve equal treatment, and all this sort of mealy moushit and every citizen of Clearwater is tearing their hair out, like what are we going to do about this? Like they've taken over our city? What are we going to do? And Bunker came in and said, I'm not scared of him. I'll say the word scientology, scientology, scientology, scientology, Scientology. Then took one of the guys who was running against him and tried to feed that guy a bunch of you know, like oppo research on Mark Bunker, and it it's it's such a joke because Bunker ended up winning this election for the seat on the City of Clearwater. The guy that Scientology back that they gave all their vote. I mean, Bunker got like six five hundred votes. There was five people in this race. The second to bottom guy who was the Scientology candidate, got two thousand, and that means that there was not more than two thousand Scientology votes in the city of Clearwater. Because you can be sure that everyone who was eligible to vote was being You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You got to get out and vote against Bunker. And he didn't even come close. So Scientology has not got great police political clout in clear Water through the city officials, but they have great economic clout.

To that, Uh, that's absolutely true. In fact, there was a except for the taking over the government and I'll explain. Okay. There was a really, really good article written by a reporter for the Tampa Bay Times called Tracy McManus last year where she documented the efforts that Scientology has made to buy property in downtown Clearwater and look, Scientology for a long time has owned a lot of property in downtown clear Water. It dominates the downtown area with its buildings, but it had David Muskavich wanted a certain piece of property that was owned by the Clearwater Aquarium, which is, you know, the home to winter the Dolphin, and the people in charge of the aquarium did not want to sell it to Scientology. They wanted to sell it to the city and had an agreement with the city that the city was going to purchase it and David and for four million dollars or something. And David Muscavich one of this piece of property so badly. He came in and offered fourteen million for it for a piece of vacant property, a block, you know, half a block of vacant property in downtown clear Water. And they and David Yates, who was the head of the aquarium, said I'm sorry, I made a commitment to the city. I am going to sell it to the city for their redevelopment plans. And David Muskavich had a hissy fit, started accused and putting out all sorts of of I like, he had lawyers writing letters to Panelis County into this and that about how David Yeats was a criminal and that he was ripping off the he was getting paid too much and he was ripping off the city and blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and went on an all out campaign against David Yeates. Mascavitch had been trying to smooth schmooze the city for a long time and saying I will redevelop downtown clear Water and we'll bring in a movie theater, and we'll do this, and we'll do that, and we'll you know, all these fancy presentations that were done. And when the city bought that lot, he went, you know what, fuck you all when no longer cooperating and cut all communication with the city, And then a whole bunch of individuals signed tall just started purchasing property in downtown Clearwater for cash. Wow, and against that, right, against that, and bought like a hundred properties. And downtown Clearwater has it's not that big, matt as you know, it's like a it's not a very big place. Most of Clearwater exists at the beach and out by the mall, and downtown is not that big. And so they basically bought the whole town. Interestingly, the one thing they have never been able to do is get anybody elected. You know. Scientology has claimed that they had like twelve thousand members in the Clearwater community and they have a huge voting block and blah blah blah, and that's bullshit. I known that that was bullshit it for a long time, but now in particular because most of the people that are in the Sea Organization there, which is most of the Scientologists come from Eastern Europe and Central America. They can't even vote. They're not citizens that can vote, so they have no big voting blocks. So last year, me and another one of my buddies in that lives down there and who appeared on the Aftermath, Aaron Smith Levin Leah and I did a show or two shows about Clearwater actually, and we interviewed this guy called Mark Bunker. And Mark Bunker anybody who watched the show will remember the episode where Mark Bunker was sitting on a bench in a park that Scientology owns and six police cars came to a victim from the bench. Okay, we jokingly said to Mark Bunker, you should run for mayor, and then became a little more serious about it. And there was an election earlier this year for the city Council of the City of Clearwater, and Mark Bunker ran in that election, and he ran basically exclusively on the basis of I'm not scared of Scientology, and I will say the word, and most politicians in Clearwater have been afraid to even out of the word. They will say the organization in our midst, or all religious all religions deserve equal treatment, and all this sort of mealy moushit and every citizen of Clearwater is tearing their hair out, like what are we going to do about this? Like they've taken over our city? What are we going to do? And Bunker came in and said, I'm not scared of him. I'll say the word scientology, scientology, scientology, scientology, Scientology. Then took one of the guys who was running against him and tried to feed that guy a bunch of you know, like oppo research on Mark Bunker, and it it's it's such a joke because Bunker ended up winning this election for the seat on the City of Clearwater. The guy that Scientology back that they gave all their vote. I mean, Bunker got like six five hundred votes. There was five people in this race. The second to bottom guy who was the Scientology candidate, got two thousand, and that means that there was not more than two thousand Scientology votes in the city of Clearwater. Because you can be sure that everyone who was eligible to vote was being You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You got to get out and vote against Bunker. And he didn't even come close. So Scientology has not got great police political clout in clear Water through the city officials, but they have great economic clout.

Let's pause for a moment for a brief word from our sponsor, and then we'll return, diving even deeper into the story of Scientology.

Let's pause for a moment for a brief word from our sponsor, and then we'll return, diving even deeper into the story of Scientology.

And we're back with more from Mike Render.

And we're back with more from Mike Render.

Speaking clout right and aims of the organization. This brings me to one question that I think is on the mind of a lot of our fellow listeners.

Speaking clout right and aims of the organization. This brings me to one question that I think is on the mind of a lot of our fellow listeners.

Here.

Here.

Maybe it's best to ask what do you see as the primary aims or goals of modern scientology, Or maybe it's better to simplify it and say, what do you see as the future of scientology? Like what do they actually want?

Maybe it's best to ask what do you see as the primary aims or goals of modern scientology, Or maybe it's better to simplify it and say, what do you see as the future of scientology? Like what do they actually want?

What they actually want is they want the world to become a scientology world. I mean, their aim is to bring everyone and all governments and all government agencies into alignment with the goals of Scientology. That is the stated purpose of the Office of Special Affairs. As a matter of fact, they want everyone to you know, the way they put it is to say, we want everybody to have the benefits of scientology that we have. What that translates into is we want everybody to be a scientologist, and that translates into we want to be in control of everything in a scientology fashion and run it like a scientology show. We want to take over Clearwater and have it be a Scientology city. We want to take over Los Angeles. We want to take over the entire United States. No, actually, we want to take over the whole world. They do want. I mean you hear scientologists talk all the time about a cleared planet, and a cleared planet means everybody is clear, and clear is a state in scientology that is achieved through auditing of getting rid of your reactive mind, something that Hubbard invented too in you know, we're not going to get into that, but scientology wants to like every religion. Look, this is not unique. Scientology just has much bigger aspirations. They are like the you know, the flea on the leg of the elephant climbing up the elephant going stand back, I'm coming. They're tiny, but they believe that they're going to take over the entire world. And this is part of the nutty mindset that fundamentalists anythings have. They believe that truly believe that they are going to ultimately prevail and Ultimately they will be the dominant force of over all of mankind. Go ask a Jehovah's witness, they will tell you exactly the same thing. Go ask a fundamentalist of any any religious organization, a fundamentalist Christian. Everybody is going to be ultimately a good Christian or they ain't going to exist anymore. They're going to be wiped out in the Second Coming or the Armageddon or whatever. Scientologists believe the same thing. Ultimately, everybody is going to be a scientologist, and that's what they're working to accomplish on the way. That means we're gonna get a lot of money, we're gonna have a lot of control over a lot of people.

What they actually want is they want the world to become a scientology world. I mean, their aim is to bring everyone and all governments and all government agencies into alignment with the goals of Scientology. That is the stated purpose of the Office of Special Affairs. As a matter of fact, they want everyone to you know, the way they put it is to say, we want everybody to have the benefits of scientology that we have. What that translates into is we want everybody to be a scientologist, and that translates into we want to be in control of everything in a scientology fashion and run it like a scientology show. We want to take over Clearwater and have it be a Scientology city. We want to take over Los Angeles. We want to take over the entire United States. No, actually, we want to take over the whole world. They do want. I mean you hear scientologists talk all the time about a cleared planet, and a cleared planet means everybody is clear, and clear is a state in scientology that is achieved through auditing of getting rid of your reactive mind, something that Hubbard invented too in you know, we're not going to get into that, but scientology wants to like every religion. Look, this is not unique. Scientology just has much bigger aspirations. They are like the you know, the flea on the leg of the elephant climbing up the elephant going stand back, I'm coming. They're tiny, but they believe that they're going to take over the entire world. And this is part of the nutty mindset that fundamentalists anythings have. They believe that truly believe that they are going to ultimately prevail and Ultimately they will be the dominant force of over all of mankind. Go ask a Jehovah's witness, they will tell you exactly the same thing. Go ask a fundamentalist of any any religious organization, a fundamentalist Christian. Everybody is going to be ultimately a good Christian or they ain't going to exist anymore. They're going to be wiped out in the Second Coming or the Armageddon or whatever. Scientologists believe the same thing. Ultimately, everybody is going to be a scientologist, and that's what they're working to accomplish on the way. That means we're gonna get a lot of money, we're gonna have a lot of control over a lot of people.

That was well said and more than a bit disturbing, to be honest with you. But I think it may an important point that that's not unique to any one fundamentalist organization. They're all proselytizing ultimately, right. They're expansion oriented.

That was well said and more than a bit disturbing, to be honest with you. But I think it may an important point that that's not unique to any one fundamentalist organization. They're all proselytizing ultimately, right. They're expansion oriented.

Yeah, But the good news, Ben is scientology may be expansion oriented, but they're expansion handicapped. They are not growing. They are getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and that is due to information that the end of scientology was predicted with the beginning of the Internet. The Internet is the antidote to all high control mind control organizations that exist because information kills them, and when information is easily accessible, it is their death. The trick of it is if they have intimidated enough people into believing that it is dangerous to provide that information, then it doesn't get out so easily. And once the information is out, it's it's it's rat poison. It kills off and and ultimately cuts off the source of new members, and that it's going to take a while for Scientology to disappear altogether. It's hot like getting rid of a three billion dollar acid at organization is not easy, but it's it's diminishing, not increasing.

Yeah, But the good news, Ben is scientology may be expansion oriented, but they're expansion handicapped. They are not growing. They are getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and that is due to information that the end of scientology was predicted with the beginning of the Internet. The Internet is the antidote to all high control mind control organizations that exist because information kills them, and when information is easily accessible, it is their death. The trick of it is if they have intimidated enough people into believing that it is dangerous to provide that information, then it doesn't get out so easily. And once the information is out, it's it's it's rat poison. It kills off and and ultimately cuts off the source of new members, and that it's going to take a while for Scientology to disappear altogether. It's hot like getting rid of a three billion dollar acid at organization is not easy, but it's it's diminishing, not increasing.

Mike Render, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us and our audience today. This has been a off Mike everyone. We checked with Mike in advance and we essentially said how much time do you have and we hope that we have it. We haven't made you regret regret taking this this journey with us. Mike, you have a blog that we've mentioned before, but we didn't say explicitly the name. I would like to point out it's Mike rendersblog dot org where you can learn more about Mike's work, more about his experiences, and of course, as we mentioned at the top of the show, please do check out the podcast, which is Scientology Fair Game. In this you will find a deep dive, an exploration that is exclusive that that goes into much more detail about some of the things we've explored today, when we've just scratched the surface. I think it's fair to say.

Mike Render, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us and our audience today. This has been a off Mike everyone. We checked with Mike in advance and we essentially said how much time do you have and we hope that we have it. We haven't made you regret regret taking this this journey with us. Mike, you have a blog that we've mentioned before, but we didn't say explicitly the name. I would like to point out it's Mike rendersblog dot org where you can learn more about Mike's work, more about his experiences, and of course, as we mentioned at the top of the show, please do check out the podcast, which is Scientology Fair Game. In this you will find a deep dive, an exploration that is exclusive that that goes into much more detail about some of the things we've explored today, when we've just scratched the surface. I think it's fair to say.

And you know, Mike, we will have to have you back on because we have so many more questions. But we can't thank you enough for spending your time with us today. Really appreciate it.

And you know, Mike, we will have to have you back on because we have so many more questions. But we can't thank you enough for spending your time with us today. Really appreciate it.

Well, thank you all. It's been a real pleasure and I will happily come back whenever you ready to get overwhelmed with useless information from Mike Rindo once again.

Well, thank you all. It's been a real pleasure and I will happily come back whenever you ready to get overwhelmed with useless information from Mike Rindo once again.

All right, yeah, we're ready. We want to go full clear, right, We're down.

All right, yeah, we're ready. We want to go full clear, right, We're down.

We're down for this, alrighty.

We're down for this, alrighty.

And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.

And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.

It's right. Let us know what you think.

It's right. Let us know what you think.

You can reach you to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy Stuff Show.

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