Stuff They Don't Want You To KnowCLASSIC: Film Conspiracies -- an Interview with Chuck Bryant, From Earlier
Did someone really hang themselves on camera in the Wizard of Oz? Did Stanley Kubrick hide a secret message in Eyes Wide Shut? It's no secret that the world of film is fraught with conspiracy -- both on and off the screen. But do any of these strange rumors and urban myths hold any sand? Join the guys with their special guest and long-time friend, Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant, cohost of Stuff You Should Know and creator of the Movie Crush podcast, as they separate fact from fiction in the world of conspiracies and film in tonight's Classic episode.
Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning to you with a fantastic blast from the past. We had our big podcasting brother, none other than Charles W. Chuck Bryant, join us back in twenty nineteen to talk about the wide world of conspiracies in Phil.
Yeah, we touch on everything from Stanley Kubrick and his potentially fake moon landing, hidden messages in many of his films, The Wizard of Oz, lots of crazy juice about that film, things that happened behind the scenes.
And guys, we have breaking movie news. Conan O'Brien will be hosting Oscars again next year.
Okay, second day, and thank god for that.
He was.
He did a fine job.
Good one. But I like his podcast too. But thanks for tuning into ours. Here's the tape.
From UFOs to Psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. Can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.
Hello, Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noah.
They call me Ben. We were joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. As our fellow longtime listeners know, we're all film buffs here and stuff they don't want you to know, big fans of cinema in almost any form. And today we're diving into the film conspiracies of all types, right like we would say, we're film buffs.
I only like movies.
Oh yeah, you are here, you're a movie man.
Well you know, I officially have a degree in filmmaking, although without the actual film.
You're a professor of cinema.
No oh, I feel like you're right now, all right, No, no, I'm just saying like, I'm all about this kind of stuff as we all are, so we have an interest in it. But we're not here alone.
That's true, Matt. Today we are joined with our collective pal pioneer of podcasting, a friend of the show, and an actual outside of work personal friend of ours, to boot Charles W. Chuck Bryant, host of Movie Crush, as well as stuff you should know. Thanks for coming on the show, Chuck.
Hey guys, hey man, I've got so many questions already. Oh yeah, Ben, question for you fans of almost all kinds of film? What kinds of film are you're not a fan of?
Oh I was. I just wanted to leave people in out in case one of the guys is like, you know what, screw spaghetti westerns. I hate any omorcone, I love any o'morecone. So it would have been driving some tension into our relationship. But not all films are for all people.
You're probably not a fan of snuff films for example.
Yeah, actually, I hope that's not a hot take. I'm not you know, there you go call me old fashioned?
Good answer.
So for backgrounds, how would you describe Movie Crush the podcast? Like how you the germ of the idea, how you grew it? What you guys do? And I know Nol's on there as well.
That's right.
Well.
Movie Crust started as Hey, let me interview a celebrity and release every Friday and they talk about their favorite film all time favorite movie is The Conceit and it is still that at times, but it is morphed over the past two years. Just had the two year anniversary and now we do these mini crushes on Monday with Nol as co host, where we have a great movie going community on Facebook and we post questions and polls and through a lot of interactive fan stuff, which is a lot of fun, and then Fridays. Now it turns out booking celebrities is a hard thing to do what and it got kind of sick of it. If they come my way, now, great, I'll do that. But I have a stay full of friends and family and colleagues now that come in and we do film series and filmmaker series and just whatever you want to talk about about a specific film.
And just really quickly, just to make sure this is crystal clear, this is Chuck reaching out doing this booking solo. We don't have like a staff of like booking agents that are trying to guests.
For interviewing celebrities, not my friend's family and colleagues. Now it's great, though, These are great conversations no matter who it is. And it turns out the listening community was like, I don't care if it's a celebrity, these are great conversations, Maddie. We're doing I don't even know what to college. Originally it was just hit movies. We're just gonna go with ninety nine.
I think, okay, it's nineteen ninety nine in movies yeah, man, well is speaking of your colleagues and friends that you interview. You have a whole sery. By the way, Paul has been on that show.
Were Saul and I are doing a Sophia couple of series.
Oh, you just want to hear Paul's voice. He never speaks on this here podcast. You can hear him speak on Chucks.
That's right true.
But another person you interview as a colleague named Casey Pegrim, and that is what we really want to get into first.
Ah, yes, Casey Pegrim aka LaBouche as he's known in France, and then a couple of different podcasts. What it's a We have this idea that Casey is in addition to be a super producer in Atlanta. You know this is a true story, you guys, We all know how he disappears for like at least three weeks once a year to France. Yeah, so we have this vision of him leading a completely different double life where he's LaBouche. He has like an ear ring and a leather jacket.
Is he an assassin or is he just he is just an international man of mystery. Okay, assassing is probably on the table, but if it comes up, Yeah, I.
Really thought you were going into the mighty Boush thing there. For a second, I thought that's what this means the mouth.
Yeah, I'm mistaken. Yeah, he's he's.
Kind of like a broker of film related crime. We haven't really figured it out, but we're pretty sure he has maybe two secret families of France that are aware of.
What you do. Is guys, is one of us before next year, say hey, Casey, I saved up some Doman and I would love a your guide and can we co incide our trips and just see if he's like, how weird he gets? It's what I'd like to do my own thing, not actually going this year.
Let's you know what. That sounds like a plan and we have enough time to do it right.
Great, But the series you make with him, yes, is focused on a particular filmmaker, at least several. You've made several in that vein talking about Stanley Kubrick, which is somebody we've spoken about before on this show. We kind of want to get your take.
Yeah, yeah, let's let's start with this is one of them. When we think of conspiracy theory and film, Yeah, one of the things that will be most apparent in the front of the mind of the mainstream listener, whatever is going to be stuff related to Stanley Kubrick, Right, So we wanted to get your takes on some of the most prevalent conspiracy theories or fringe theories regarding Kubrick and his body of work. So you've heard the one about Stanley Kubrick faking the moonlanding? Sure, okay, well, let's just really fast. Yeah.
Do you think there's anything to that with the technology that was being developed to shoot that film in tandem with our efforts to get to the Moon. Do you have any feeling that something weird was going on there or it's just all I mean, it's just all happened to be coinciding.
I don't think anything was going on there, Okay, I know. Part of the credence to this theory is that two thousand and one of Space Odyssey looked so realistic and who else would you go to? But you know, he enlisted real people from NASA, if I'm not mistaken, and astronauts and engineers like that's why that movie looks so great. Not to say he couldn't have done that to fake the moon landing as well.
I guess well, just also as such an odd tour who's famous for having so many multiple takes of things, it seems like he'd be a real pill to work with faking a moon landing, Like, how many takes do you have to have of the like each step? Right?
Yeah, I'm okay. Here's my.
Kind of updated take after doing a little more research on this, And it's slightly tangent here, but it's coming right back and it's related. Okay, stay with me here. When Steven Spielberg made Close Encounters of the Third Kind, allegedly he received a lot of criticism from NASA for producing that movie. And the way the story goes is that they were worried that audiences would have a similar reaction to the concept of extraterrestrials visiting as they did to the concept of giant sharks being in the waters near places where people just go hang out and swim in the ocean. But also, I've not ever read this letter, this strongly worded twenty page letter that NASA sent to Spielberg, twenty pages allegedly, I've never read it, and I've not seen anyone actually write out, you know, points from it. But It's been alluded to several times over the years, and it just goes back to that concept of creating a movie like Space two thousand and one, a Space Odyssey, like the concept that it could possibly be dangerous to society by releasing it because it puts these images into our brains, these ideas of like with close encounters, an extraterrestrial force visiting us and what that would mean.
Interesting are you saying that, like from a pr standpoint, it would have been a bad move.
It's like, we don't want to.
Cause a panic, public panic. I don't get worrying about this stuff. Better to think of other things, you know, Like.
See, I always heard it was different. I always heard that these films had supposedly been commissioned by the government to soften us up to the idea, yes, alien invaders or whatever.
So again, like you're talking about essentially different people's viewpoints and the way they're thinking about these concepts of conspiracy.
I guess could go either way.
Well, it could be right.
It softens you up or scares the heck out on you.
It's interesting because we see if we look at the trends in sci fi, we see something happening with AI, which was a pretty cool correlation that I didn't discover, but one of our friends, Dan actually discovered this one. And we see how in times past, right, especially during nuclear scares or communist scares, technology or androids were depicted as this other, this dangerous thing. But now increasingly we've moved from a terminator franchise to a more friendly thing, right, like more of a Wally world. And so without getting too far away from the alien stuff and the NASA stuff, I did find. I found this quoted in a couple places, a quotation purporting to be from Steven Spielberg regarding this NASA letter, and I would like to read it, just to see what our reactions are to this. I really found my faith when I heard that the government was opposed to the film Close Encounters. If NASA took the time to write me a twenty page letter, then I know there must be something happening. I had wanted cooperation from them, but when they read the script, they got very angry and felt that it was a film that would be dangerous. I felt they mainly wrote the letter because Jaws convinced so many people around the world that there were sharks and toilets and bathtubs, not just in the oceans and rivers. They were afraid the same kind of epidemic would happen with UFOs. Difference being sharks are proven to exist.
And I mean, now, I haven't seen close encounters in a long time, possibly not even all the way through.
But aren't the Aliens nice? Are they not nice? Yeah? I mean the only time you actually, I mean, should we spoil alert this? Yeah, let's this old old movie. Yeah, in the nineteen seventies. The only time you actually see the aliens the final third encounter is at the very very end of the film. And all that happens really is Richard Dreyfuss goes up the plank and is greeted very warmly. Ben. We don't know what happens after that door shuts, but that's true. They appear to be very friendly. Yeah, as that door is shutting, it's sort of a handholding thing, if I'm not mistaken.
It seems weird, though, with all the stuff that NASA has on its plate back then and now, it seems weird that they would take so much time to write to this guy about a fictional film.
And God, how much they have felt about Independence Day, am I right?
Right, That's what I'm saying, man, pandemonium.
They knew that the extraterrestrials that are very much real my friends that are out there are dangerous, and they didn't want us to think they were nice and friendly and we could talk to them our keyboard.
Like don't go up the gangplank, Richard Treyfus, you fool, They're going to put things in your butt already knows that.
I mean, that's yeah, that's I think that's in the original script that was close Encounters of the butt exactly.
So let's take it all the way back just really fast, is Stanley Krubrick, and then we'll we'll end there with the moon landing conspiracies in general. If you take it away from Stanley Krubrick, do you do you have any doubts that we went to the moon?
Of course not okay? And then the you know the things everyone knows sort of the why they believe it was faked with the flag flying and the shadows not being quite right. What else is there? Is there a footprint situation that's an issue? Did I make that up? In situation?
There's the idea that the lunar dust would have moved differently. But it's also it's a question of the film technology at the time.
And also we had never been to the moon, so we're not quite sure what stuff like when filmed on a camera. Stilly question.
Do we have access to, like what the camera looked like they shot this on.
I've never Well, that's one. Well, actually that's the still camera. That's one of the theories is that in the reflection of I think Armstrong's face whatever you call it, face plate, you can see the photo being take, a very clear reflection of the astronaut taking the photo. But like you can't see a camera man, there's no camera. But apparently the camera is embedded. Yeah, it's attached to the suit.
That makes sense.
And his hands were sort of right at chest level, so it all checks.
Yeah, the stories that there they could barely move their hands at all.
And it camera.
Dexterity. Also, this this is interesting because it ties into, of course, one of Kubrick's one of Kubrick's most well known films, the adaptation of Stephen King's The sh Shining Right or The Thing, inspired by the novel. Because there are people who people who believe that Kubrick was somehow involved in faking the moon landing, also believe that he decided the best way to tell people this was through some sort of Rube Goldberg esque series of clues hidden in a completely unrelated film.
Oh, there's an absolute laundry list of weird hidden stuff in The Shining. Much of it doesn't refer to that at all. That refers to like an Indian genocide, Native American genocide.
And the gold standard Room to two thirty.
Seven exactly, yes the film, Yes for sure.
Yeah, so Chuck, I am I am not surprised and also immensely reassured that this was not the moment where we learned that you were convinced that you were a mooner. I like that phrase. Do you guys like mooner?
I love it.
Let's put that on a T shirt.
So in The Shining, it's supposedly like Danny's sweater with the hollow rocket as he stands up the carpet. That now iconic pattern is one of the launch like the launch pads and what I mean these are all that's very flimsy stuff to be delivering a message, you know. And then there was the fake video, you know, from it's like four years ago where someone had a video where Stanley Kubrick came clean about the whole thing. And this is like the twenty fifteen Did you ever see this? I did, Yeah, And it was this long interview where he capt to the whole thing. It was all very believable. But it's not Stanley Kubrick. Wow. That was the one problem. It was a guy who was making a movie about Stanley kub Kubrick and this was a guy who played like old Kubrick. But I watched it today and I looked at it. I was like, well, that's not even him. There is a fool so many people.
Wow.
There is a tape of Kubrick that came out not terribly very long ago where he explains the ending of two thousand and one a space Odyssey, which is interesting just to listen to. He kind of ex I can't remember exactly what he said.
Hold on, it.
Gets confirmed. It's from a BBC interview. That's a legit.
I had source has no idea there were counterfeit Kubrick's just running amuck.
Well, nowadays, with all this deep fake stuff, we got to figure out how to really, you know, confirm the validity of footage.
True nowadays, you can't believe people unless you meet in person. This is something that's fascinating because it still sticks around in the cultural zeitgeist even though it's very easily debunked. Right, you can you first off, moonlanding stuff. Last thing I'll say about it. You don't need a particularly advanced telescope to look at the moon and see reflections of man made things on there or see sorry, signs of man made things, right.
Yeah, And you can shoot a laser if you have the right equipment, and it will reflect back on that laser reflector that's there.
And if you don't have a giant laser. Let us tell you today's episode is brought to you by Gigantic by two get three free. It's an economy of scale. There is a thing here that happens. There is a thing, a thread rather a thematic narrative thread when we talk about Kubrick that goes across several of his movies, and it's the idea that somehow this creator is speaking to us the audience through code, right, and that these films are somehow you know they're they're multi layered, right, But that one of those lower layers is a is a message of some sort and this sure it's it's prevalent when we hear discussion of the Shining, But then when we get to his last film, Eyes Wide Shut, it's like the door is blown off the hinges. Right, you know, I think we've all heard this, and I want your opinion. Was Eyes Wide Shut actually coded expos on some elite cabal or some real real cult thing? Uh?
Why is everyone looking at me?
Well, because Schuck, you're host of stuff. You should know one of the biggest podcasts out there. You were clearly one of the elite.
My friend, right, you also host our film podcast.
There's a lot of crossover here. Uh No, I don't know if it was supposed to be. I think the idea is that it is a depiction of an elite group of a secret society, but not necessarily that it was supposed to be any particular one, right, or are there concrete theories there are? I mean, is it's supposed to be.
Yeah, of course, I mean it's always the Illuminati, you know what I mean, Like, should.
Put that on a T shirt.
It's always they're the free bird of secret societies, you know what I mean? In the Great Karaoke Conspiracy Conversation The Yeah. So Tom Cruise plays this guy, doctor Bill Harford, and he learns that his what they're taught. They have a wild night, right, one of those should be nice parties that gets really weird. And then he's talking with his wife, Alice, and he's talking about affairs because this older, I think hungarian guy tries to seduce the wife and then someone's also concurrently trying to seduce him. They make it out and skate. They go home and he's like, well, it was crazy. I can't believe that, honey. And then she says, good by the way, thank you, thank you. I learned it from Connell and and uh, there's there's this moment where his wife says, actually, I have seriously considered having an affair. There was this one guy. There's one real smoke show. I you know, I thought about leaving you and the kid. And this this is sort of the impetus that sets Tom Cruise's doctor character out into this this world of murky secrecy. People who believe there's some sort of hidden message there point to what they say are numerous occult symbols in the film and the film's heavy on symbols, that's true. You know, it's a lot of masked, indelicate interaction.
There's a lot of CGI sex stuff. They had to like cover things up to get to make it get an R rating.
I think like during the orgy scene.
They actually had to like insert fake people to cover up some of the penetrative moments.
Yeah, I would watch it cut where they where they did a purposely bad job of that. You know, we're like some guy from Cateringe is walking.
Out from the Nirvana video just kind of walks through the frame with his mob.
And the mob is of course in rhythm to yea God.
So I just want to inject something here that has to do with our discussions of these nineteen ninety nine movies, because Eeswad Shoud is also a nineteen ninety nine.
Yeah, we covered the Matrix and fight Club so far.
Yeah, one of the major themes in these movies, all three of these movies from nineteen ninety nine, is that there's something very wrong with society. We either as just a regular human being existing within it, can't either see it, can't do anything about it, or we need to change it, or we're all of a sudden made aware of it. So within I why I shut in the matrix all of a sudden, Tom Cruise in this the scenario you been you talked about, He's just all of a sudden made aware of this crazy elite secret society. Neo becomes aware of the matrix. The narrator in Fight Club becomes aware of just how society.
Actually how banal his life and his existence is, and how futile the whole thing is.
Well, yeah, so it's and it's kind of maybe it's that whole concept of coming up on the new millennium that perhaps in people's heads. Yeah, I'd like to know if you think there's anything too that with Stanley Kubrick deciding to depict this secret society and the way he did the people who truly pull the strings, it's almost it's not a comment or a response to any of that stuff, but maybe it's kind of showing us here's the real Here are the real people that pull the strings in our society. They're people who go to board meetings and have crazy parties because they just have all the power and money.
Yeah. But I mean, if you look at the end of Eyes Wide Shut though, spoiler and you believe what the movie has to say, then they are nothing but a group of sort of horned up rich people exactly. And the girl is not dead, she's this this, you know. Sidney Pollack explains it all at the end, and it's like, you know, all these crazy ideas that you've got about what's going on there, and that there's shadowy murders and cover ups it basically we're just like a bunch of perverts.
Well, it's kind of like we talked about with Hodgman when he was on Stuff that I Want you to Know, and he sort of shed some light into his entree into the book and Snake in Yale when he was his time at Yale. And now at the end of the day, it was just kind of like a swanky party for people to do some networking.
And he's much more if we're being honest, he's much more focused on his medallion status rather than any sort of secret collegiate society.
Medallion status dot bit L Y all capital letters.
So it's it's weird because whenever we get to the point of any theorizing, when we're whenever we get to the point where we're asking people to interpret a symbol, right, something subjective. We're no longer looking at something quantitative, like a mathematical equation. We're looking at someone who's saying, well, I think I think that looks like a triangle with an eye in it. And I'm pretty sure. I mean, what's the difference, Like, at what point are we just.
Reading tea leaves?
You know what I mean?
I I see what you're saying there, But isn't there some isn't there an extra onion layer to this? Didn't correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Stanley Kubrick die before this movie?
Yes, released six days after he had a screening he died, which is such fertile territory.
But didn't somebody else have to go in? And no, that's not true. I'm thinking of Ai. Right.
He got in a fight with this udo about how to cut it, which I think you alluded to earlier nol for eyesweight chut mm to get that the I guess it was too too racy for an R rating.
Yeah, right, But then I guess here's my question that I don't have an answer to. Is like, in the theory, they were pretty close to releasing this movie, but somebody, maybe the distributor could go through and make changes. Whoever owns the rights to it after his passing, like could go through and make some sweeping changes to the story before it comes out in theaters. Maybe that's one of the reasons that some of the conspiracy theories continue to proliferate, because something could have happened that we would never be privy to.
It's true.
I'm just gonna okay, I'm just gonna say it. This is just one person's opinion. I don't think there's much sand to conspirat. Like as tempting and as juicy as it is cognitively to say Stanley Kubrick, an immensely talented director, went too far and crossed the line, and the powers that be were like, don't tell people about our orgies. Now we're going to kill you. As tempting as that is to believe, and as frankly fun as it is to believe, he was an older man who was not in the best shape, you know, and taken very great care of himself. I believe he's seventy years old. It's not like he was twenty one years old and found with two gunshots to the back of his head, right, But it does bring out something I think could be it could have much more credibility to it, which is the idea that a government, or the idea of specifically the US government, may be able to play a role in determining what kinds of films get created or what kind of films get depicted.
Like.
It blew my mind when I learned that this is for all our aspiring filmmakers out there. You can get the US military to do stuff for you on screen. Oh yeah, as long as you depict them as heroes, right.
Or at least in a way that they agree upon.
Yeah, which I had no idea.
Like, I'm not sure how much say they have and whether or not something gets made these days, but they can certainly if you're making a war movie or anything that involves the army, then they can make it really easy for you, or they can sit on their hands and make it tougher. But they'll be like, sure if they like what you're doing. How many tanks you need? You need some helicopters?
WHOA, we're wasting your time podcasting?
You know what the fees are for that? I No, I don't know.
Oh man, we need to find out what about it?
Even on like a branding level, like if you know, are we allowed of our filmmakers allowed to use Army, Navy, etc.
Without permission? Like yeah, you've got to clear everything. Yeah yeah, And I imagine yeah they would they ask for the use and what are you going to do with it and then either say yes or no.
Hey, have you guys seen the trailer for the new Top Gun movie. I'm actually kind of excited.
I am too.
Okay, I feel obligated to watch it. You know, I feel like it's inevitable.
It's just a teaser, right, Like you don't really see his face there.
No, there's a full trailer.
I saw the teaser one, Okay, I gotta I got a buddy check it out.
I gotta say I was not like I saw Top Gun enough because it was just the zeitgeist. But I wasn't some big Top Gun nut. But when I saw that trailer, I found myself going, why do I Why am I so in love with the idea of this movie? I know, well, they it's probably pure nostalgia.
It's the way they shoot for me, at least the way they actually shoot the jets, because it brings out the kid in me that played with a little toy F fourteen and I was just like, oh man, this is so cool. We hit on something really important here, ben of the concept of controlling what can be seen and like government involvement with that, and I really want to get into that after a quick word from our.
Spall, wo.
So as you can tell one of the reasons that we all are so passionate about film is because we're passionate about stories. We're passionate about communicating this way. But film isn't the only way to encounter a story. As a matter of fact, one of our other favorite ways to participate in a story or listen to a story is through an audiobook. And that's why we recommend Audible.
And hey, Wonder of Wonders. It's the holidays, it's the perfect time to think about getting yourself or a friend or family member and Audible membership. And right now, with this special offer, you can get fifty three percent off your first three months.
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Yes, that's correct. One of the books that I've been enjoying very much via Audible is cloud at List by David Mitchell. You may have heard of the film, check out the novel. I gotta say it's astonishing and the way it's constructed makes it incredibly immersive to listen to.
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That's Audible dot com slash Conspiracy or Text Conspiracy to five hundred, five hundred and we're back. So the question the question at.
At the table, Sure we're at a table.
Okay, there we go, Thanks guys. The question that we're looking at currently is whether the weather a government specifically, the US government can influence the kind of films that get made or the kind of narratives we see. The answer to that in days of your was yes, you know, to some degree or another. But the answer now maybe becomes a little more complicated.
Right.
We have indeed, there's this democratization of filmmaking technology, so we have more people who don't have to be beholden to a studio. But I don't know, man, I know it's very on brand for me to be like the CIA is dictating MCU or something like that. I don't think they would bother.
I would say that the control mechanisms, to a large part are still in place, but it's mostly the distribution arms. Like you, you could make the coolest indie film ever, but you may not get anyone to see it, no matter how trending something becomes. If it's not you know, fully out there somewhere. Uh, and you've got ads popping up. Ever, somebody's paying for ads, somebody's paying for posters, somebody's paying for all this stuff. You're not gonna have the same reach. Maybe that's maybe that's wrong thinking though, because anything that goes viral online could be potentially seen by.
Well, that's true.
I mean, that's why no one's cracked the code on how to make things go viral per se.
This is the This is one of those things that you and I have different your pains.
Okay, what do you think? Well, I think it's all like stage.
Well, there's more, sure, there are more opportunities to spread things, but there are fewer people holding the faucets of that information. To say that Facebook could not artificially make something quote unquote viral, to say that they don't have that capability is.
Willfully I'm not saying they don't nofully wrong. I absolutely think they do.
But I also would like to believe that things succeed or fail on their own merits, at least some of the time.
I would think. So, Yeah, I mean I don't think. I don't think we're in the grips of some corporate sith overlord.
I mean, if that cat playing the piano video didn't succeed just because of its sheer awesomeness, and I don't.
Know what I believe in?
What a chaotic universe? Yeah, there's a Oh, this is one example that I think is very real. Have have you guys' film buffs noticed the tendency like the growth of the Chinese mainland film market, right, it's huge. Have you guys noticed that the tendency for blockbuster films to be recut, have scenes added or deleted for the Chinese market.
We've talked about this, right, Like they they don't like ghosts. There's certain thing they don't like they have to take out. I think ghost is one of them. If I'm not totally just out on a limb with that one. No ghosts and Chinese cut, So now I'm not okay, maybe that's not that, but there are definitely some cultural things that like they have to soften and language that they have to soften.
Paul said, true ghost Yeah, yeah, I thought I didn't make that up.
Have you seen examples of this?
Well, I mean, the only thing I can think of is something sort of obvious like H and not for the Chinese market necessarily, But didn't they fully recut or not recut, but digitize the enemy for the Red Dawn REMAKEH? If I'm not mistaken it was originally I'm not sure. I think it may be originally was China and they had to go back and digitally replace the insignias and the flags and make it another country. If I'm not mistaken.
That's interesting, and I wouldn't doubt that, especially seeing what we're seeing with China holding so much sway over like American like like American companies having to censor stuff like the NBA for example, you know, like wanting to play ball with China because they have so much control over the purse strings. And that's true because a lot of movies that flop in the States do Gangbusters business over in China Pacific Rim, So you know.
You don't want China.
Yeah, it's the reason they made the second one really entirely because of what happened in China. And then when they made the second Pacific Rim, there's this very there's this very apparent leaning into this Chinese market. Charlie Days character for some reason, it is like the white guy who speaks Mandarin, and then there's also a Chinese general who I believe gets a lot. He doesn't really get many lines in the American version. It's just that thing where there's a conversation between like two principal characters, and the camera keeps cutting to this guy just sort of reacting, and he's like oh yeah, oh no, oh yeah, And so I think it gets actual lines in the Chinese version. But that's a clear example that gives truth to this conspiracy theory. On some level, there are governments are able to control entertainment media.
Yes, absolutely, And just to confirm it was originally the Red Dawn remake was originally Chinese flags and it got changed to North Korean flags. And so they don't miss out because it's a billion billion human beings that they.
Had a garbage movie on their hands, and that American audiences wouldn't go see it. Well, have y'all.
Just to bring this back into I guess current pop culture. In twenty nineteen, the new season of South Park is out, and one of the things they hit early on in the season is this concept of Disney and films and all these things changing their scripts specifically so that the film in its regular it's an original form would just perform and be able to be released in China as well, like catering the full thing, not just recutting a version of it or something. It's just fascinating to me, But it was all about Disney and all the varying properties and how they were.
Doing this so they're just making Chinese friendly movies.
Yeah, again, this is South Park commenting on a situation.
Then it must be true.
You got to remember too, it's like, it's not like every American movie ends up in China. They have very tight control over which ones get in, right, So therefore you want to level the playing field by like, oh, maybe China. Hopefully China will take our big, giant, expensive movie so that we have this whole other.
Because Charlie money makes Mandarin's right, right. Yes, not only that, I was just looking it up. Apparently in gravity.
In the Sandra Bullock movie, Sandra Bullock survives by hiding in a Chinese space station. The movie twenty twelve, humanity is saved because the Chinese government builds these life saving kind of like arc.
Ships or whatever. So there's you know, there's definitely thought.
Being put into, like how can we please China so that we can get that sweet sweet you know Chinese business.
Your show is probably not in China, right.
Well, no, I don't know if we can get into China.
After your show is in China. There's no way, No, you guys do I think I remember at one point someone said that we were not available in China for stuff you should know.
Huh, guys, we got to learn Mandarin or cantonese. Okay, just we've got the weekend coming up. Well we'll solve that, right.
Uh.
This so the spoiler alert there, there was another historical conspiracy we wanted to talk about that perhaps is an episode of its own, the Red Scare and the House on American Activities Committee, But we want to give that due diligence. And also, I think this is something that we're wondering and our fellow listeners are wondering for you, specifically, Chuck, what are some of your favorite, like most out there fan theories about films or franchises, not even like real quote unquote conspiracy theories, but like the craziest stuff that fans have come up with. And also do you believe it or disbelieve it?
So are we doing blacklist? Are we doing fan theories theories?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, we could do We could do do fan theories. Yeah.
Well, I'm glad you asked. Ben. There's a few popular ones available on the internet. I'm not sure if you know this. It's real pository for stuff like what the heck is the internet? There's the Toy Story one which is pretty good, which is that Andy's mom was the original owner of Jesse the Cowgirl. WHOA Okay, why did that blow your mind so much?
Matt, Well, it just connecting it up that much because it was such an important part of this.
Yeah, because that would make you know, Jesse sings the song about Emily, you know that really said song about her previous owner. That would be Andy's mom toy story too. I think that was in Toy Story. Yeah, when she loved me that you met.
Well, I mean, I have a four year old man. We've been watching that movie all the time.
That one is actually could be true. And Disney and and Pixar certainly does a lot of this stuff. I think they recently admitted that everything is in the same shared universe, right, Yeah, Like there's a Frozen theory too about the ship that.
Els and Ana's parents are on or the same the same ship that they find in The Little Mermaid.
Oh well, and also that that Tarzan is frozen. I don't know the ladies and Frozen that they are siblings, Yeah to Tarzan's.
Because of the the Elson an A parents that were on this voyage and.
They had a boy they had a boy that is yeund and.
And geographically where they would have been passing through, it might have made sense for him to, you know.
Wash up on it. Ferris Bueller is a creation of Cameron's mind. That's always that's been an old one, but a good.
I remember hearing that when and then it made me go back and rewatch Ferris Bueller, which I thought was like I thought day Off was the coolest film growing up. Yeah, it was a very very safe and ocuous way to fight the power.
Yeah, what was the tagline for that? We heard today? One man struggled to take it?
Why do you think they didn't franchise Ferris Bueller, He has his day off?
Why didn't they do? Like that was going to be a sequel for a while to the Beach like.
And then there was there was a a very Ferris Bueller esque television series called Parker Lewis Can't.
Lose That He was the Heath kind of looked like Parker Lewis.
Oh, thanks, man, I think he was the he was sort of the Heathcliff to the Garfield of Ferris Bueller.
Yeah.
I actually liked that show.
Yeah, it was cool. Yeah, he's like cutting a cardboard cut out of himself in half with a chainsaw.
Uh.
There, of course is the breaking bad meth led to the Walking Dead. What apocalypse? You never heard that one to me? Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff. Glenn in season one drives that red Dodge Challenger which looks like Walter's car, and when Walter went to return that car, the manager of the car dealership's name was Glenn. Darryl is trying to bring down the fever of this other guy at one point, so he pulls out of sash of drugs and there's clearly like blue myth, like Walter White's blue meth in the bag and then one more merle. You know Michael Rookers character early on he was a former drug dealer, and they described his on the show, his supplier as a janky little white guy who threatened him with a gun and said, I'm gonna kill you. Can I say the word probably can't a curse on here, just yeah, I'm gonna kill you.
WHOA so JANKI looky white guy?
And I what I think is going on is I think Vince killing or the Walking Dead creators put some like fun little references totally. Yeah, but you know, they have fun with that kind of thing filmmakers do, I think.
Yeah, people love the ster eggs and yeah, the best ever though.
Guys, you know the Tommy Westfall universe theory, right, Tommy Westfall from Saint Elsewhere. Okay, So Saint Elsewhere was a show in the eighties hospital show and very famous for the ending final episode, which was one of the doctor's son. His name was Tommy Westfall, doctor west Fall's kid, and he looks into a snow globe. Well, first of all, a character that has already died is is is alive in the living room and is a different person. His dad comes home, the doctor, and he's a construction worker, and so this is the very very last scene of this whole long series. And then Tommy looks into his little snow globe that he's always playing with, and it is sant Eligi's hospital inside the snow globe. Basically, the idea is that this whole thing think Tommy had autism and it was all this world that he created. Oh so that's the beginning, that's the seed. There were so many crossovers and uh, guest spots and characters appearing, like, for instance, the two doctors went to the Cheers bar one time as those doctors and Dittle cameo. So there are all these little tendrils to where they have now linked four hundred and nineteen TV shows to say and elsewhere. Meaning if that was all in his head, then all of these shows are in the head of young Tommy Westfall, whoa concluding the X Files, all of Star Trek and Dude, if you looked at the list you can go to I mean they have full websites on this, and you look at down the list of four hundred nineteen shows, you're like, how does mash have anything to.
Do with Wait?
Wait, so there's real connections. Yeah, yeah, real connections. Really the Marine universe sort of thin, but some of them aren't, Like you know, Cheers, Begat Fraser. Fraser had like a guest star that was ended up on something else and then somehow that connects to like Law and Order, and Law and Order has tendrils all throughout because all the different shows and all the guest stars and not just like someone guested on the show, but like in character in the fictional worlds.
Like Munch from uh He's been in like I think X Files and a bunch of true crime shows. He's in law and order, so.
That ties all that stuff together, or like MASH was something I mentioned one of the doctors once and elsewhere at one point made a little reference to working with Trapper John. Who is that one of the doctors in MASH, So like that's how that fits in. And then MASH reaches another couple of things.
Oh my god, I'm looking at the grid. Uh there is a visual grid online that you can find. Oh and it's this is at eleven percent. I'm looking at eleven Oh wow, it goes all the way in to Chicago.
Pretty funny to pick it. Fences, like a rested development is on there, great shows, Alpha is on there. So this spans and they all yeah, I mean they're basically saying, like close to four hundred and twenty shows, simulation theory very much.
What this is.
He's the He's like the god of the matrix, basically Tommy Westfel. If you guys are familiar with the PBS Digital Studios show Idea channel, which I don't know if they produced that anymore, but I used to love it. I think I gotta start watching it again if they do. But there is a Tommy Westfell west Fall excuse me, universe episode of that show.
Really, he goes through and does it does all of the connections, so we should credit the original guy too. It's a comic book and TV writer named Dwayne McDuffie put this forward in a two thousand and two blog post. It's very two thousand and two bloggie.
It is also about this theory, guys, do you I mean, I kind of miss that that idea. You know, I don't watch television is kind of changing anyway, but I I don't watch a ton of stuff, but I would love it if I was watching. I don't know if Black Mirror had a Stranger Things reference in there somewhere that kind of.
Now I'm with you, and it is a little harder these days because I think back then, with like three networks, there could be more crossover, but it's hard to like, you know, Apple's making TV shows now, are they going to reference something from like CBS? You know, are they going to reference Everybody Loves Raymond or something? Right, think it's a lot easier to cross over in those days.
That's true.
I do miss it, do though. They'd be kind of cool. I'm sure this one continues, and now I'm sure people are trying to write in Tommy Westfall connections. Oh yeah, yeah, you know, just to be a part of the whole thing. I'm obsessed with this. There's even cartoons like Dexter's Laboratories on here and well then you can click on it and see what the link is to to Tommy Westfall. It's so cool. Yeah, it's pretty neat. I was unaware of this. We can really spend some time. Is real rabbit hole.
I love that these kind of rabbit holes are inspiring to me because they think, like, Okay, this guy was doing other stuff with his life. He discovered this, and now Dwayne McDuffie, Dwayne McDuffie is two thousand and two blog posts and now it's taken on a life of its own, and like.
Getting paid for this did he? I don't know.
It feels like a passion project. It feels like a mission. And you know, I fell asleep trying to put on a pair of pants one time, so like, this guy is really being productive.
Yeah, it's sort of like the Kevin Bacon I think, if I'm not mistaken. At one point in the mid nineties when I was living in New Jersey. I met the guy who created the Kevin Bacon degrees of separation. I was gonna call it a meme. Wasn't a meme back then, guys, wasn't a rumor. You know what our memes are. We would draw pictures and hand them around at one another. That's so charming.
What a distribution lot.
I don't know what to call it though, But if I'm not mistaken, and this just popped into my head, I think I met that guy at a party one Tommy Westwall No, the guy who created the Kevin Bacon separation thing, seven degrees of separation?
Did he did degrees introduce himself as that guy?
He was introduced to me as such. And the reason I remember because I think he was developing a board game at the time, and you know, supposedly, I guess he owned this idea. I don't know Reynolds trademark that did you look it up? I'm making it the Oracle of Bacon, I would, now I'm hungry. I don't know, I don't remember. I certainly wouldn't remember who it was. This is just some random Barney.
This this is strange, Okay, So this I mean researching this interconnected universe is very much there goes my weekend moment.
So sorry, Oh no, it's good for a while, It's gonna be worth it.
But I do want to let everybody know we had mentioned briefly. House on American Activities Committee, would you be interested in making a return appearance for us to do an episode just on that. Sure, okay, because I feel like maybe we did and this is my bad. We did a bit of a tease. There's like no cut that, let's go to fan theories. But I have no regrets because I feel like we learned a lot.
Absolutely. I mean, I've certainly got a rabbit hole to play in a sandbox. Rabbit box.
This is gonna be one of those times in the box where you and I hang out at the local bar, reading the same web page and just not talking to each other.
Let's do it. Let's do it after this.
Can I ask one last thing before we please? Do you think we mentioned and you just mentioned it again in the House of an American Activities saying, do you think there could be a time, specifically in the United States of America where something like that could happen again? Like where yes, the government steps up, you think, so.
I think it's happening. I mean, not necessarily just that, but for sure, yeah, I think. I think lately we've all seen out of pain. Things can get.
Just inching towards totalitarianism, you know, I mean one day at a time, and it's like we always say, it's like the whole you know, frog in boiling water situation, where it happens slowly and then before you know it, you're dead.
Well, one thing, since I know we're past Halloween, but it feels like it's always Halloween in America nowadays. It's true. One thing that we have that we have to consider is that the most vulnerable point of any nation's life cycle is always going to be the succession of power, the secession of power. And so when I was studying North Korea years and years back in a different lifetime, that was the thing that put everybody on international alert. When one of the Kims is going to say, Okay, my son, this chosen Kim is now going to be in charge. Hope everyone's cool with that, because there are a bunch of other there's all this internal stuff. We have been very fortunate that we are in the US. We're not a country like Italy. Italy has not had a very good run of contiguous governance for what the past fifty plus years, But here in the US, we sort of take it for granted that when an election happens, whether local, regional, or federal, the person who wins the person who loses shake hands. We don't know if that's gonna happen. Now, boy really took this in a depressing note.
You know, I think if Donald Trump loses in the twenty twenty eighth, then it'll be a really, really interesting transition.
I'm already digging in my backyard to make a place where my family and I can hide for several months. Hopefully everything goes great and won't need to use it.
I don't think like violence will break out necessarily, but I'm having a hard time just picturing him playing nice about it all.
Well, that's what we're talking about too, right, Like where you know, the normal channels, the normal ways things are done that we've all accepted are the ways things are done.
This is kind of proven that, like, maybe it's only done this way if people play nice. That's right. I think that's absolutely true.
Yeah, the rule of law is a tenuous thing.
You know.
The example we always use on this show is we think we take the tack of or the perspective of future historians looking back on twenty nineteen. So many things now that we do we're going to seem ridiculous in like twenty years, forget one hundred. One of the silliest examples that still holds water is, of course, driving on the interstate, explaining to like one of your grandkids, well, we used to hop in these things that would go ninety plus miles an hour, and.
How is it not one hundred percent mortality?
You know, right? And like, well, we have this system of lines that we painted on the ground walls between the cars. No, just paint, just paint, And we all kind of agreed that we would treat these lines as though they were barriers. So it was kind of an honor system.
We have even had a saying stay in your lane, yeah, very quaint time.
Don't text or you'll die.
Right, They're like, oh, so did that work? And the answer would be like, kind of, I don't know. A ton of people died.
They'll just say, like, you drove your own cars exactly with your hand.
It reminds me exactly reminds me of that scene from Back in the Future too, where Martin mcfid does his like fancy you know gun video game moves and the little kids, one of which I believe is young young Elijah Wood says, you have to use your hands, idiot, you know Boomer?
Yeah, okay, Boomer, I love Boomer. That's a weird one.
So last question that we're wrapping, what was in Marcello's Wallace's briefcase.
Oh, look like a yellow light bulb are apartment.
Wait, do you have behind the scenes? You get some juice on that? Oh? I got no juice.
I really got into the pulp fiction theories of the portal in Marcella Swallows's neck. He was the devil or something, or it being his soul and the soul is in that. I never got into that stuff. I just always kind of took it at face value.
I always thought it was gold bars. Yeah, I mean that's what I thought in Dinner in the California Sun.
Yeah, and just just a hyper stylized hey, here's something valuable in here. Thing. Mm That's what it was, though they.
Big up it a lot harder than if it were just gold bars. In the movie they treated it like it's sort of sacred.
And irreplaceable, unique object. But you know what else is interesting too. We have to think of Quentin Tarantino's personality. I've never met the guy. Yeah, he seems like he can get you know, carried away, passionate dude. Sure, so, I you know, maybe he has an explanation to himself or or I want to be like the party pooper here. Maybe he was just like, okay, just put it, put a light bulb in it and make it bright. And someone's like, okay, well what is it. He's like, no, no, no, just roll one of the yellow gels on it.
Yeah, we're playing off of his personality and the weird things that end up on camera for him. Maybe it was a pair of solid gold stilettos.
Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe it's just like a foot maybe Yeah.
He's yeah, speaking of shared universes though he does a pretty good job of of that.
And it's it's I think it's right. I can't remember how we where I was discussing this.
It might have been not on a podcast weird, but like, yeah, you know, Vincent Vega is vic Vega from Reservoir Dogs.
I think their Yeah, yeah, there's more.
Cigarettes, there's more there's there's more stuff and moving into exactly.
I just think that's fun. I like it. Yeah, same here.
I like that it's not over Yeah, it's world building, but it's not over the top. It's not it's not beating like there's not there's no exposition about it, which I think is very strong.
You're not required to keep it in mind, but if you feel like it and want to dig deep, it's a fun thing to like pay attention to.
Yeah, the TV show lost Mede a whole However, many seasons they counted on fans really overdoing it.
That's true payoff. Yeah, were you one of those guys when it was.
All oh dude, I was waiting the fuselage that was the website. I went to that thing. I was all over it, man, I thought it was really really cool.
I was on spoilerforums dot net. Yeah, talking to Russians about like getting the new not even the new episode early, getting the new teaser.
It waned for me as the show went on, but those first few seasons I was in deep. Absolutely.
It got to the point where you realized there was no way they were going to be able to cash this check that they wrote, like there's just not enough episodes left, you know. Yeah, But thinking back, and this is how I feel oftentimes when shows that I love initially kind of jumped the shark. I don't know that it affected my overall. I still enjoyed my time with the show. It didn't make me just like completely thrown into the bus forever.
I don't know.
But they did a great job. Was shared universe fan theories too. Even tied into clover Fields a bit tenuously.
Oh sure, yeah, I like that, which was the one with the the Cloverfield movie with an underground layer.
Oh yeah, that was great. Really, I thought it was cool. That's John Goodman, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, in a real nasty s o B.
And I was like, come on, man, you're the guy from Roseanne. Be cool.
Do you want to hear my little name dropy loss story.
Yes.
So I went to meet our friend John Hodgman, he's been on this very show. I went to meet him for dinner one time in la at the Chateau Marmont, and the dining room there very cool. The only time I've been there is by his invitation. And I was waiting in the lobby, waiting, waiting, waiting, and he said, I'm finishing dinner. It was just like right behind me with a friend, just like, hang out there for a minute. We'll go get it drink. Also, when I happened to see John Krasinsky and Emlee Blunt, they walked right by me. Caught eyes with Krazinski and he gave me a very nice acknowledging smile and nod and I was like, he is a good guy. You can tell just because he looked at me. He went just kind of smiled that aside. That's one name drop. Hodgman finally texted me and said, come on over to the table because we're going to be a little bit longer. It's Damon Linda Lindelof sitting there and I was like, oh hi, And it was right after Lost.
Oh wow.
And I sat down and within like two minutes he went all right, you got to be honest and he was like, I've just met you. I don't know you. John and I were talking about the end of Loss and he was like, were you a fan? I was like yeah, And he's like, what did you think about the last episode? No? No pressure, no pressure at all. And I was honest and I went, yeah, I was like, it was all right. I was like, I gotta say, I said, I love the show. I said, but I didn't love the ending. And he was very sweet about it, and he said see because I guess John was saying like, no, people loved it, and he took that as ammunition to be like, see there, this guy's being honest. Like I think he might have thought. His contention might have been that we dropped the ball a little bit. But you gotta remember too, like that show, they didn't intend for it to run that long.
Now.
I think they were like doing well, and then the studios are like, keep it going, guys, keep that juice flowing.
And so then they kind of write themselves into a corner and like what are.
They gonna do? I bet you Tella novella, you know, and it's almost like the Dark Tower novel series. You know, it keeps, it keeps going, and at some point, like there's this beautiful moment when you're writing a story in your created world where you're in the middle of it, anything's possible, right, and you get toward the end you're like, well, Polar Bears, Yeah, what happened to those guys, right.
I'll never forgive a monster.
Yeah, I'll never forgive them for the smoke monster. I thought I wanted that to be something so much more.
Yeah, what it ended up being? Again, can I.
Can't even remember?
It was the embodiment of the spooky bad guy in black because there were the two there were the two siblings, right and ask Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't even remember.
Any too much, guys, this too much lost, too much lost.
We have we have people yelling at their podcast player of choice right now.
David is making Watchmen right now on HBO.
And it looks dope.
Yeah.
I saw the pilot. I liked it.
It's it's really well done. And of course Alan Moore hates it.
He is uh means he's already vocal that he hates it. Well, that's my point though. Is he actually spoken about it or is there we just assuming.
That he has. He's a great writer who only writes to support his habit of being a full time curmudget like that's his first love.
I know.
He lives in a very small village, uh and has lived in the same place, a very small, modest home. He worships a snake god called glican and he is very into you know, witchcraft and Alistair Crowley asked.
You to have these amazing YouTube video. It was about magic where it starts out with like, Okay, we'll get this because we've all worked in production. Starts out with like an empty chair, just in an empty room, and then there's a there's like a hard cut and he's just sitting there and he's like, oh magic. On that note, though, I think Almore is a fantastic writer, genius.
Yeah.
And so barring a Lost, a Lost reboot, a gritty reboot of Lost, what if we call that? I don't know, befuddled?
Yes, found found see that movie crusher symbiosis.
Nice and where can people find movie Crush if they want to learn more about the world of film.
Well, you know, Ben and the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your favorite podcast. That's our official cca.
I heard that somewhere.
Sounds familiar. This is thank you so much for coming on having me. Yeah, it's long overdue.
Yeah, I think year ten or whatever is a good time to have me on.
What I said, I would say, if you are, if you like this show and you've maybe joined our Facebook group. Movie Crush has a Facebook group that has just the most fantastic people on it.
To discuss things movie Crushers.
Yeah.
Movie Crush is similar to our hears where it gets crazy. So it's just another great place to a group to join if you are a fan of movie Crush or.
If you like the show.
Yeah, and if you like movies. It's just a nice community of people who aren't jerks to each other and who share ideas about movies that are very respectful and it's cool and check.
I might be being a dumb dumb and asking this, but do you post the many Crush questions on the page or on the actual like on the group or on the page I posted on the Movie Crush facebook page facebook page, So if you want to get in on that, and you want to join the group, which is its own thing, and join the conversations, but join the conversation for the show. Chuck literally posts questions the day before we do these many Crush episodes where it's just he and I kind of having conversation starters that folks on the Facebook page submit, Yeah, and I read your name, you.
Read your name.
You can become an old pal stet a good friend, like it's really a whole thingy.
You've got some recurring suggestions and people right in the page because it a very supportive community.
Yeah, that's great, and.
That's our classic episode for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts.
It's right. Let us know what you think. You can reach.
You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy Stuff Show.
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