As one of the biggest bands in human history, it's no surprise that The Beatles are the subject of numerous conspiracy theories. Is the real Paul McCartney dead? Was the government stalking John Lennon? Is there a a secret cache of unreleased Beatles music hidden away somewhere? In today's episode, the guys sit down with Brian Ray, host of the On Tour podcast and guitarist for Paul McCartney, to explore the fact and fiction behind these strange claims.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer Ball, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you. You are here and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. However, this is not an ordinary episode today, friends, we are joined by the one, the only, Brian Ray. Amongst many of his accolades, he is the creator and host of On Tour, a podcast by Black Barrel Media in conjunction with I Heart Radio. You might be familiar with the It Was Names, and Brian has an extensive history as a lifelong musician and as true story guitarist for Sir Paul McCartney, amongst again many many other works. Brian, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Thanks so much. Ben. Hey, Matt, Hey, no, Hey, Brian, how are you man? I'm good. I'm happy to be here. We're happy to have you and it's always fun to listen to your own CV rattled off at the top of the show. But Ben really, um absolutely is not kidding when he says, this is among many other incredible things that you've done throughout your life. Um, you also have just recently launched a series of vinyl singles through another person that we're all a big fan of, Mr Little Steven van Zant of Silvio from the Sopranos fan and of course the E Street Band. But tell us a little bit about the single series that you're doing with with Steven Well. I had uh, I had been on the Underground Rage and been played on that radio station at Serious twenty one for years with a band that I started called the Bayonets, with my buddy and my partner in the Bayonets, a guy named Oliver Lieber, who, if that sounds familiar, yes, is the son of Jerry Lieber of Lieber and Stoller, the writing duo and production duo that basically built rock and roll, you know, Jailhouse Rock to stand By Me Too, under the Boardwalk Poison Ivy. Anyway, so he's my buddy. We got a lot of play. We were discovered by Marine van Zante, Little Steven's lovely wife one night, upon the release of our first single called Sucker for Love, Well, she went and played it for Stephen and he reached out to us the next day and said, I love this. Who are you? Can I get some more of it? Do you mind if I do an edit? You can use the edit or not. I'm gonna play on the radio anyway. And that started a long, long relationship that's just gotten better and better over the years and it's awesome. Finally, when the Bayonets wrapped up, little Stephen came to me and said, uh, would you be interested in a singles deal with my label, Wicked Cool Records? And I said, of course I would, And here I am five singles later and ready to do five more. You're a busy, busy man, sir, which I think is something that uh we were made us even more excited to speak with you today because in a very real way, your career is one that millions of people dream of having or even you know, and this is not hyperbolic. There are people who dream of having, you know, one gig like the like the many that you have. And when we were we were researching this episode, of course, people have read the title We're talking a little bit about Beatles conspiracies, which we all thoroughly enjoy. But when we were researched this episode, I have to be honest, I kept thinking like, is there a way that we could get Brian to tell us some of those behind the scenes war stories, because how many tours have you been on at this point? Can you count them that at all? God, it's incalculable. Um well, I started straight out of high school and that's a long time ago, so uh, you know I started out. My very first gigs were with Bobby Boris Pickett and the crypt Kicker five doing the Monster Mash at six Flags over Texas and stuff like that, so, um you know, I was seventeen men And that led into UH being introduced to Edda James by a guy named Phil Kaufman, who has the main UH character in one of the most outlandish rock and roll stories of all time, involving Graham Parsons. Anyway, that's a story for a whole another podcast. Anyway, Phil Kaufman was also Edda James's UH road manager, introduced me to her, and that led to fifteen years touring with Edda James, opening for the Rolling Stones and many other things, and that led to twenty more years of working with her in the studio and such. So that's just one of the many things that I feel really lucky enough to have stumbled into somehow. Wow. So, Okay, I want to I want to pivot this a little bit. Brand. I want to talk to you kind of on a high level about the concepts of chance versus versus fate, and I want to do it via one word. That one word is freedom. So when I think about, um, at least all the events that I've read about and heard about in your life thus far, and you think about all the events in the world that have occurred since you've been alive, Um, it really boggles my mind when I think about what brought you to New Orleans in February of two thousand two, and UM, I just really want to know what it was like for you regarding chance versus freedom to be at the Super Bowl with Paul playing a song called Freedom at that moment in history. Yeah, so interesting. I mean this was back before I had a cell phone, if I remember correctly, and I still had, uh, you know, a plug in what cordless phone with voicemail, But that day I happened to pick up the phone on a Monday when I got a call from David Kahn, the great producer and arranger who is associated with Paul McCartney for years and years and still will sometimes pop in and out. Well. David Kahn said, I got your phone number from ab Lear Boreal Jr. We're putting together a band to go do one song in advance of the super Bowl two thousand two, and we're looking for guitar player who plays a bit of base. Would you be up for coming in meeting with me? I see if you might be the right guy for that, and I said hell yeah. He says, can you be here in a half hour? And I said no, but I can be there in an hour. And the truth is I could have been there in a half hour, but I was literally shaking now and I didn't want to show up like drooling, So I thought I would take just a half hour to breathe a little bit, get my act together a little bit, because this was all very exciting. Now. Flip back a couple of weeks. I had told a but my birthday party that I would love a shot at That was what I said when he talked about future gigs, possible gigs with Paul. So obviously he had given my name to David Kahn. And now there I was with David Kahn over at Henson Studios, talking to David Kahn, picking up a Hoffner base, picking up a telecaster, and just talking about music. It wasn't a high pressure, uh you know, audition or something. It was more just kind of a get to know your thing, just he and I and UH. At the end of about an hour, he said, well, you know, I've had a really good time. Man, I have a good feeling about this. There are other people they're looking at I know that, but you know, I'm gonna put your name forward. And um, I got a call the next day saying can you be on a plane Wednesday to come to New Orleans to play with Paul McCartney at the Super Bowl. And I was like, hell, yeah, you know. So, I mean it is um something, It is chance, and it is preparedness because if not for the many years with Edna James and Laura Brannigan and Johnny Halliday and million from without all of those things, maybe I'm not the right guy for Paul. So it's chance, it's opportunity. But it's also preparation, but it's also being a kid who embraced freedom to do what the hell I wanted. So if that kind of helps wrap it up, I've never thought about it that way, but yeah, I was lucky to have parents who didn't force me to do like go be a policeman. Yeah, I had the freedom to do what the hell I wanted, and I knew from the age of three that's what I wanted. Wow, And this this is something that I think is inspiring for a lot of the people in the audience today to hear because you know, Brian, we have a lot of listeners who are on on the younger side, you know, in pursuing music, and this is a secret adults don't always admit to high schoolers and younger people. That's a terrifying time, you know what I mean. And there's a lot of external pressures. So I think it's powerful, uh for us to be able to share this story of you being being capable of having your vision and pursue we and I completely agree with with your statement that um chance does exist, but a chance and preparedness are what I think creates the amalgamation we recognize as opportunity. And with this in mind, I have to I have to ask what was your what was your first impression? Like we're meeting Sir Paul McCartney for the first time. Things have happened so quickly. Right, We've got this call. Can you be here in thirty minutes to get on this plane Wednesday? It's a movie montage and now here you are, well, you know, Uh, suffice it to say, I was really nervous. If I was nervous to meet David Kahn. Okay, this is like times a hundred. Now I'm in New Orleans. Now it's the day of the evening that we're going to have a dinner together in this big, beautiful ballroom and a certain old hotel. And uh, you know, I am freaking out now, And because you know, I think that that's a generational thing, like people of my age were there. I was sitting on the floor when the Beatles you know, arrived on as Sullivan Show. You know, for us in America, that was our first visual take now and England, of course, they'd been seeing them on all sorts of shows and in clubs and stuff like that since well sixty two. For us, it all happened at once. There are two singles out already, and here they are. And so for me, it's a big deal when you know he's gonna walk into the room and you're gonna turn around and meet him. So I was out of my mind. I thought, Okay, I'm just gonna walk around the French Quarter for about three hours, see if I can just like spill off some of this extra spark that's coming off of me right now. And that's what I did. I walked around the French Quarter and you know, did a little tourism and stuff like that. Did it get rid of my nerves? No? It didn't. But uh, there I was. It was about seven thirty or eight, and we're all in this ballroom. He's not there yet. There's a bar set up and a big, beautiful table, about seventeen of us. I've now met some of his inner circle, you know, some of the you know, direct production staff and stuff like that, but a very cool, small group. Uh. And I'm standing there having a cocktail and the lights are low, and it's this big sort of Rococo beautiful room with long curtains and lush setting, and and suddenly everyone's energy just changes and it gets very quiet in there, and I say, he's just entered the room, and my back is to the door, you know, like I didn't want to like have my jaw dropped on the ground or something weird. But anyway, so yeah, I'm a bit of a fan, what can I say? And so finally he makes his way around and I've turned around and and uh, he walks and he goes, you must be Brian. He puts out his hand, he goes, I'm poll and uh. You know, that was the beginning of what's now twenty years, you know, and in the blink of an eye. Uh. Anyway, he made me feel very comfortable. He was very nice and very warm. He was with his then wife, Heather, and we sat down to have a beautiful dinner for us, and you know, it was a really nice way to start. You know. It's it's it's so interesting hearing you describe this from the perspective of someone who, like all of us, I think it's huge Beatles fan, You in particular, experienced it when it was just like happening at its height. Yeah, I actually kind of so weird. I'm a strange person. I tend to put things off that too. Many people are really really into. So I sort of slept on the Beatles for quite a while and then all of a sudden it just hit me and I was just you know, all in um. But the thing is about the Beatles. Part of what I just said is they were just so they hit the zeitgeist and kind of caught people's imaginations in a very you know, popular music kind of way. Obviously, when they first arrived, they were more kind of a traditional pop group and you know, huge legions of fans freaking out airports and they arrived, and then of course they went into a more kind of mystical period where they started experimenting with sound and creating the kind of you know, um uh should the standards really for what you know, multitrack production is today and some of the best and coolest and weirdest sounding records I think ever made. And because of that and that intersection of this like clean cut kind of like pop group then becoming this much more kind of refined and out there and you know, um, very experimental different band in such a short period of time. It makes sense to me that you know, so many things are said, there's so many legends and lore kind of wrapped up in all this because they were doing so much for the first time. Uh. And one of those things, if you guys don't mind that I'd love to just jump into, is the idea of recording things backwards. So it's like, you know, there have there's been much made of the idea of backwards masking, and you know, um, congressional committees playing records backwards and saying that there's satanic messages or you know, particularly evangelical types that are you know, I mean, there's the devil is in this Beach Boys single or whatever. Um. From the perspective of the Beatles and them talking about it was just kind of them having a bit of fun and trying some interesting things out in terms of recording techniques, and they thought it sounded cool. But the idea of hiding messages in records still kind of sticks around today. UM. I just kind of wanted to, I don't know, have a little bit of a brief chat about backwards masking and and then where you stand on that and uh, and particularly we'll get into some you know, examples within the Beatles catalog. I would like to answer that in reverse. Let me play the record back resort. Just he's into it. He says, he's into it, and we can move and move forward. Okay, So well, I mean, you know, the truth is is what I know is the Beatles began to take a little bit more of a front seat approach to their own sonic uh palette, you know. And they had gone from being a four piece rock band, pop band to now getting into being invited into the studio by George Sir George Martin and Jeff Emrick. Uh. For most of the time they were being invited in, and as soon as they did, all bets were off. You'd see their hands up on the board and they'd get involved in the mixes. And then they said, well, what would happen if we recorded the drums really fast and then played them back slower, and then wouldn't they sound bigger? And we could do that with a piano or guitar. So they do a lot of sort of double speed recording or half speed recording to get the opposite effect, and somewhere along the line, uh, you know, you you get things like uh uh that the time where for tomorrow never knows? Of course, Famously, one of their most psychedelic and indulgent studio masterpieces where they literally went into tape library and found all these sort of sort of like calliope bits, and then Paul would go record a guitar part really slow and then play it back super fast, and then chop it up and put it into this recording and tomorrow never knows that John Lennon mostly UH composition, but Paul McCartney and George Martin and the whole band joining in for production UH featured what is now known as the very first drum loop because that's just a couple of bars of ringo played over and over and over again. Fascinating. Well, now that's done all the time in popular music and rap music and and hip hop. Looping is the thing you do. Anyway, that is one of the first known examples of that. UM and the backward masking very interesting stuff. The backward recording, Well, the Beatles did do it here and there. UM. Whether there are actual hidden messages in there, that's uh for others to say, but it was interesting, Like I think it was Tipper Gore al Gore's wife came to Congress to, you know, decry that this new backward satanic masking it was going you know, and uh man, oh man, that was like a funny time but you know, yeah, I mean it was interesting. I think for the people who did it initially it was just something weird and new to do. Later, as soon as Tipper said that, then everyone did start putting in backwards messages as people against her own goals by getting people riled about it, like what this lady is telling me I can't do this, Well, I'm definitely gonna do a ton of this um and exactly like no, exactly, but just to stay on backward masking, for one, you can't get away that easily. Brian Ray for your money. Is it Cranberry Sauce or I Buried Paul? Or turn me on dead Man? Or no? Is that what it is? We'll turn on audio roar shot. At that point people tend to hear what they're expecting. They'll hear. That's exactly I think what Brian's getting at in a lot of ways to um. But turn me on dead Man was the one from the White album on Revolution number nine, UM where folks were thinking that was a reference to probably the biggest Beatles conspiracy there is, which is the idea that Paul was you know was killed in a car accident and then replaced by a doppelganger for the duration of his life. I do, I do want to bring this to you, Brian. There is one one part of backwards masking recording that Paul McCartney talks about that I thought was pretty interesting and gave us a little bit of a look into his personality because uh, unlike you, uh, most people have not met Paul McCartney and worked with him, so so we're kind of gleaning his personality from these interviews, from these autobiographical works, and this stood out to me. Uh, He's in this interview a while back, and he seems pretty game to kind of play with the fans who are getting a little maybe a little off the off kilter there, and he admits, he says, oh, yeah, we did add backwards recording backwards masking to Free as a Bird, and we did it because we thought it was hilarious and we give everybody, all the all the nutty fans, uh something to do. Does that? Does he have that kind of personality like is that the kind of Frankie would pull? Yes. Absolutely, He's a man of great humor and he's a very hard working man and an exacting man, and as he should be, and he has very strong ideas that are wonderful to explore, but he also just wants to have a laugh. Also, Paul isn't one of those people that's behind some you know, some big gold gate in a gilded cage. He's He's like a human who walks around and goes to dinner and demands as normal a life as he can possibly get. So he is in touch with what fans have thought and believe, and I'm sure he gets out a kick out of it. So I find it funny that he would do that, uh, you know, deliberately, just to play with the fans and have a go, you know, have a laugh. Well, Paul is for a word from our sponsors, then return with more from Brian Ray and we're back. You know, I really appreciate you pointing out one of those one of those struggles that people after at a certain thresh hold of prominence and celebrity always encounter, which is just a let me not have to be on for for a second, you know, let me go get dinner, right, and especially if you have so many adoring fans, Uh, this can be a struggle and I this makes me want to pivot to something that I'm sure, um, I'm sure has affected Paul in many ways and has affected a lot of people like you worked closely with him. It's what Nol just mentioned, which is the big daddy of all the Beatles conspiracies, the idea that Paul McCartney is somehow not Paul McCartney as well said, uh that the the original Paul McCartney was killed in a car crash, and then there's this whole story about how there was a lookalike contest, because that's how you keep a secret. Um have you Have you ever talked to him about this? I have no idea how you would bring that up in conversation. Yeah, Paul, are you dead? I wouldn't tell you to say to you know, when this is all wrapped up, whenever that is that. Uh. Finally he would turn to me and say, Brian, I just want you to know that my real name is Randall. I'm not, in fact Paul McCartney. Oh my god. You know what anyway, Uh, you know it's uh to be the subject of so many fantastical sort of conspiracy is a real honor. That just means that people are so into you that they want to embellish your I guess mostly eight year career and keep it going, keep it going today. You know, I think that's a way for people to keep the Beatles alive. And uh, it's funny that they would choose to say one of them is dead by keeping him alive. But you know, anyway, Yeah, I mean, let's get into it. Tell me what the data is, give me, give me some of the evidence, and let's go. Man, hit it all right. Yeah, so here are the facts. The story of the conspiracy theory that Paul McCartney dies really reaches the mainstream way back in October twelfth of nineteen sixty nine. There is a DJ named Russ GiB He's hosting a show on w K and R sixty nine. Everybody loves the Beatles, everybody knows who they are, and he gets you know, these are like this is the heyday of call in radio, right, So, uh, someone, a mysterious caller reaches out to us on air and and it's like, you need to put on Beatles wide album Spin number nine, number nine intro from Revolution nine backwards, and the like hangs up like big, I've already said too much vibes, and so you know, it gives a DJ. He's game for it. He placed it on the air, and he is the one who claims, you know, I hear something and it sounds to me like they're saying, turn me on, dead man. And then from that moment the story spreads like wildfire. Uh. And there's there's one there's one hilarious quote from Paul himself about this where he said, I'm alive and well and I'm concerned about the rumors of my death. But if I were dead, I would be the last person to know. Excellent answer. Oh my god. It reminds me. I know you mentioned this before, Ben off air. It reminds me a lot of the Mark Twain quote, the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated, you know, to the idea to be able to comment on your own death is delightful and ironic. And it sounds like he took it in stride. But I mean, there were like headlines about this. This wasn't just some fringe e thing. I mean, clearly you know it is in many ways, but it made the news. Right. Are you saying that newspapers needs stories to sell more newspapers. Is it normal news enough? Apparently not. But anyway, and back then, even back then, we've got a headline from the World News Daily Report that says former Beatle Ringo star claims the real Paul McCartney died in nineteen sixty six and was replaced by a lookalike. When when did this happen? Well, that that came out in the mid too, I know for sure, for sure, but it did still make the news at the time. But what is the deal with that? I don't even remember? Call this happenings like a very disreputable This sounds like a very disreputable publication too, by the way, Yeah, but it's sold papers, it's sold clicks, I guess, and online advertising, I suppose the same same thing. But this is the mid two thousand teens and like around I believe, and this got published in a bunch of other places. Is so people picked up that story. Oh my god, Ringo star talked to this thing called the Hollywood Inquisitor and spilled the beans about all this stuff. Holy crap. What and even I you know, in in preparing for this episode reading the article, my blood gets gets a little excited. I'm like Oh my god, Ringos like telling the deep dark secret. And the reason why it's compelling is because there's so many details. It's like any good yarn that's been spun. These details are so fine and just they're perfect for for making you feel like something, like something is real. Um. I hate to even burst the bubble immediately, but it turns out this publication is a satirical news site, very much like The Onion, and and it says it on on their website. Yeah, but who's going to click to the about section? Yeah, no time for that. We just heard from Ringo. It's the last word. I remember when those rumors came out. It was the late sixties and uh no, when the rumors came out about saying it had happened in sixty six, I remember that, and uh it's very interesting. I remember somebody engaging me on one of my Facebook pages about it, and he was dead serious about it, and I just thought, oh my god, this guy, there's no talking to him about it, and so I think I just muted him or something like that, because I mean, what are you gonna say? Um No, I guarantee you that that's Paul McCartney. I've been working with for twenty years, and not Randall or Billy Shears. I thought Billy Shears was Ringoes alter ego because he sings the he sings the Little Help with my Friends, and they kind of introduced him as Billy Shears. Yeah, the idea behind that album was pretty brilliant. I think Paul talks about that being his idea that this Sergan Pepper's Onnely Heart band would give them freedom to be someone other than the Beatles everyone had come to know, and thereby giving him there there's that word again, the freedom to do something like, um, you know, good morning, or like uh, little help from my friends or you know, day in the life, just to really stretch out a little farther than they ever had before in production and in sort of the palette, you know, the production palette of sounds, you know, they could be this other band. Well yeah, and plus Billy Shears had to learn how to play all of Paul McCartney's songs anyway, So okay, okay, Well, no one said the people involved into have a work ethic right where. That's that's day one stuff. In earlier research, we're looking into this and um, I was trying ardently to find some things that might exist in the world of conspiracy that might have a little bit of sand So just just the shout out one that I also don't think it's true. There there's a theory circulating and it's an older theory, um that had to had to have started on the internet, man, where someone says, no, Paul McCartney is alive. It's all the other Beatles who have died and been replaced. That's what they don't want you to know. And I could like see somebody on Facebook just deciding that in response. So I went through a lot of a lot of these ideas and one that I found intriguing and one that I think you are probably one of the best people to explore this idea with us is the following how likely is it, how likely or unlikely is it that the Beatles somehow still have unreleased music? And I'm asking this because, um, it's something that seems to come up, not just more than once, but come up kind of cyclically, like every so often there will be someone who makes a claim that there's you know, there's some tape lost somewhere that might be recovered or it's being held in secret, and we know from the creative process of of all musicians that you can end up with a lot of things that are you know, you feel like maybe they're but they're not ready yet to release. So to me, it seems plausible that maybe an individual in a group might have some musical projects of their own that they they've kept to themselves. But what do you think. Have you heard people tell like like that guy on Facebook, if you heard people reach out to you and say, no, man, tell me the truth, where's the rest of the Beatles music? Yeah? Well that is really intriguing because, to be honest with you, we know a lot. Having been around Paul for almost twenty years now, he's he's very chill and very forthcoming with a lot of stuff. Uh. But that is one thing that if it were true and there were some deals tracks hidden, he would probably keep that close to his vest because that's a very important property. And there are bill in people who would like to know about that, you know, and so that is something he might, if it were true, might not tell us. So I can't give you a definitive answer, but it is plausible that it could be more unreleased Beetles music. Who knows so Brian, are you telling me that you've never played the songs left is Right and Right is Wrong? Or Colliding Circles or deck chair, the famous deck chair or pink Litmus paper shirt. These these songs are not familiar to you, not yet played those. I'm sure they'll make the set list should we tour again after the pandemic? Should they crack open the vaults, because those are actually some names that are thrown around as being potential as secret hidden Beatles songs. I'm ready for all. The Litmus paper shirt, that's fantastic. What was it called again? To what shirt? Pink Litmus paper shirt? Pink Litmus paper shirt, Colliding circles, left is Right and right is wrong? It's like an allegory deck chair, which sounds like the most like absolutely compelling song ever song about a deck chair. But if anyone could do it, it was the Beatles could do a compelling chair, or leave it off an album because it just isn't very good. Yes, well that's the what's interesting about that that track list is for a long time it was presented as sort of a a smoking gun. But I believe what happened is that as the story took off, the person responsible for saying these the person responsible for saying these tracks existed, came out later and said, I made those up. That was a hoax. I did that, And then the people who believed him originally now decided he was lying and they were like, I don't know, Big Beetle got to you, man, there's something that's it's amazing. I mean it's there's something about human nature which I think we could all take away from what's gone on for the last year or so, not to get political, human nature. We do want to believe in some unseen, unknowable truth that really you can find if you go out and do your own research. That was the whole thing that a lot of the conspiracy theater. Conspiracy theater, I like that we are here. That's kind of where we are. Come on, that's what we are anyway. Uh, that's where I think a lot of conspiracy theories they can, you know, live on and on and on because they're really are asking questions and people are inquisitive and they want to know, and this makes them feel like they're doing their own research. You know. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because it's been coming up a lot in some of our recent episodes, especially about events of the past few years. Bryan, there's something just fundamentally more comforting about the idea of an infallible, secret superpower, even if they're evil. That's more comforting than the concept of the chaotic, uncaring universe. No one's in charge, no one's at the driver's wheel. So I think you nailed it. It's interesting, Yeah, it's It's not that different than people, um sort of finding comfort in religion. You know, it is a sort of um, bespoke religion. You can make up your own set of guardrails, facts that fit you, that you're happy with, that makes you feel good that you did your research. I don't know's it's cool whatever makes us tick. Yeah, you know. So, speaking of doing our research, I'm gonna put you in the hot seat now right ready for this. Eighteen years after you're initial performance with Sir Paul, you sat down for an interview with the Musicians Hall of Fame and Museum. Looking looking at a transcript here, let's see at twenty two minutes and thirty seconds, Brian, you say, quote, you can imagine and being Paul McCartney since birth, and being famous since you were fifteen. I mean, wow, that's a lot to carry around here. It comes, but I think he is the best Paul McCartney in the world. Yes, I'll go on record as saying that you referred to him as the best Paul McCartney in the world. M Brian, did they get to you giving oxygen to the idea that he isn't the only Paul I I What I'm really going for is is that you know it's it's tempting and understandable to be trapped by that level of fame, a level of fame that I'll never know, and be honest with you, I'm fine with that. I don't need to be that famous, um, But to be trapped by it is something altogether different. And I think that the two Beatles that are no longer with us, you know, John and George, I think that they had a different relay ship with that level of fame. I think that George uh was more reclusive, UM, and I think John came in and out of reclusive behavior. But Paul just won't do that, you know, UM, And you know it's understandable. So when I'm saying he's the best Paul, he's the best possible Uh, you know, I've got to be very careful here. They are conspiratorcises that are gonna think I'm I'm sidestepping this. He is the best version of a guy who's been famous that you could possibly be. Now, that makes perfect sense. And he seems like a lovely dude all around, very warm and welcoming. And I can't imagine, you know, having that level of fame and not turning into some sort of megalomaniacal monster. He clearly he has not done that. He has continued to grow gracefully, and he also obviously still rips as a live performer. And his new record ain't bad either. Let me tell you the one that just came out. I think it's really cool. And then then he's also clearly into working with up and coming, you know, kind of indie artists, as he put out the whole Companion record that's got like St. Vincent and back and not that they're up and coming, but it has Phoebe Bridgers is on one of the tracks. It's like reimagining, So he seems to really be He didn't have to do that, right, That's something he obviously cared enough to do to make the time to do this companion record, and uh, he doesn't have to make records anymore, for he doesn't want to. But he he made one all by himself with you know, his own home studio and produced it. And I just think that's super cool and I very much respect that. And we'll pause for a quick word from our sponsors, then return with more from Brian Ray and we've returned. Okay, so I think we can put paul Is dead to bed. He he I think he's not dead. Guys, what do you think? I don't know any outstanding questions here, so I I appreciate you, uh bringing us back to that. No. Um, I think it's it's interesting because we did an examination of that a number of years back, and we did it primarily because because of the resilience of this concept, even though it is very easily disproven. There was something that I wanted to explore on a on a larger level with you, Brian, which I think we were kind of touching on already, which is, you know, you said something really beautiful just a few minutes ago, and it's something that I have not heard before when you said these in a way, these conspiracies are being created by people who want to keep something they love alive. And that is one of and I'm not being I'm not exaggerated blowing smoke here. That is one of the most optimistic, beautiful takes I've ever heard on these um on these types of theories, because what we're talking about is something, you know, that can really wear on a person's mental well being, maybe even on their soul, when you know, fame at a certain level becomes a cage. And what what I have to ask is, if you look at the world conspiracies, you know, there's some about actors right there, there are plenty about politicians, but out of the majority of celebrity conspiracy theories, they seem to center like specifically on musicians pretty often. Why why would you say that is or have you noticed that what what do you think makes people feel so compelled to create conspiracies around musicians specifically? Interesting? I think that one of the components of that might just be that at the time when the Beatles came into fame and were in everybody's living rooms and on everyone's mind and television sets and everyone in the British invasion, and we were all swept up by this new wave. This is so long before social media, and they lived on mystery. That was part of what they were selling was they were able to put out what they wanted you to see. Yeah, the Beatles did Christmas greetings and they did this and that really sweet cute stuff. Uh. And they would then tour. The Stones would go on tour, The Beatles would go on tour. But they showed you what they felt like showing you. They gave you what they wanted to give you. So you're really left there in a dearth and a sort of a void to fill in some of the blanks. There wasn't a ton know. Owner said, they weren't on every talk show to be interviewed all the time. So I think in that void people loved them so much and as I said, want to keep them alive that they'll just fill in because it's pre social media, you know, dude, I love I love that, Brian, and I think there's something if you take that and he combined it with the intimacy that's talked about in the audio medium that a lot of times with regards to podcast has talked about as an industry, how intimate this this is where you're talking to someone or you're listening to someone constantly just through your ears. I'm imagining in the sixties in a car, listening to a song over and over and over as it's being played in your living room with your speakers you've got set up with your vinyl. My dad would listen to Beatles records just on repeat. Just sit down in the living room and listen to Beatles records. And that intimacy that you feel you have with those individual songs, with those individual musicians, and the voices that you're constantly hearing, I think that is really making that connection even deeper. And and like you said, living on every moment, on every word that's written in a tabloid. When Paul sat down or you know, the Beatles sat down to be interviewed, every little detail becomes the most important thing that's interesting, you know. And another factor that you just sort of reminded me of music performed by people like the Beatles and largely the Stones and a lot of these other very influential artists is personal and it's written by them. These days, you'll see an awful lot of the pop artists where songs are written by ten people. So you're talking about something it's very important. There is an intimacy. So those headphones are right on your ear and Paul is singing really perfect sweet you know hey Jude, or or you know John is singing Julia in your headphones. Is very intimate, you know um, and so you do form a connection with them more than you would an actor. An actor is reading somebody else's words, and as a viewer you might know that. But as a listener to someone, you have adopted this artist, the Beatles. They are sort of extended family, and maybe there's something to that that uh, that relationship, you know, kind of I know, fosters a little bit of an imagination to fill in some of the blanks in the spaces that have been left for you to fill in. And that's part of the you know. I think the the academic term for it is a para social relationship. We we have people speaking to us, even if you know they might lyrics might sound abstract on on one track or another. I believe that. I believe it's safe to say at this point people who listen to the Beatles have a collection a very specific maybe not entire song. It's very specific moments in a song that speak to them on on this intimate human level. And when you have this, when when your brain is telling you that you have formed this social relationship, then we see the you know, we see the beautiful interconnectivity that can have up And if that's the Jedi side of it, then the scythe or dark side of it is when people believe that they can start making demands or presumptions of folks that they've never met, as though they are owed something, as though they are you know, this is what I would ask my dad to do or whatever. Right. And and what I love about your point is before the age of ubiquitous information, this was this was part of your fandom, right to read tea leaves in every word. And I have to ask you this is just this is just an opinion question. But in from your perspective, having seen both sides of this social coin, Uh, do you do you think one was better than the other or were these just a natural evolution? Are there ever times when you're like, you know, social media, maybe we should take a step back or is it more like forward to the future. Well, it's a question. And uh, there is no putting the genie back in the bottle or the toothpaste back in the tube. It is what it is. I would also say that we're all super high on it right now. It has reached a zenith, especially over the last sort of four years. Let's say, Uh the interaction is sort of boiled over. Um, and it has been a breeding ground for a lot of maybe not as constructive or playful conspiracy theories. Uh so to it. Agree, it is a damaging influence, but there's no putting it back. And yeah, it would have It would be great if we could just turn it all off at once, but it ain't gonna happen. You know, that would be cool. But what would I do with half of my day now? Uh? Fair? I would you know, no more doom scrolling? But you could you could just practice all of the iconic riffs that you get to play all the time. Yeah, those five songs that Nold just told us about. I could get started on those and do something constructive with my life. Deck Chair, deck chair, dex yair chair. I'm so pumped for deck chair and pink litmus shirt. You guys, I can't even express my my enthusiasm. Um. I think this is a really interesting place to take the conversation. I mean it really that I agree with Ben. I thought it was very insightful, the idea of conspiracy around an artist or around you know, the lore. To me, this is like invented lore in so many ways that maybe there's a grain of truth. That's sort of what we always talk about, like on the show, we try to find the there's the grain, and there's sort of the pearl that sort of forms around the grain. And within those layers, you know, there's lots of different perspectives and there's lots of truth, and then there's lots of you know, misinformation. Um, but this one, it really does seem like none of these were necessarily started with maliciousness that Paul is dead. One was that thing more started out of concern earn right. It's like we're worried that Paul's not okay. Paul tell us you're okay. He's like, I'm okay, guys. The whole thing was bloody ridiculous, and they're like, we don't believe yet. Da of course, of course doppelganger Paul would say that, you know, of course, I think of course you would. But I think it's a really good point. It really is something that has started out of reverence and out of you know, these mythical beings that really aren't mythical beings at all. As I'm sure you now are very comfortable with. You know, you have that moment of anticipation meeting this person that's very much larger than life. But now that you've toured with him and dined with him and spend time with his family, you know him to just be a mortal guy, you know, who's a pretty reasonable and easy to get along with guy for someone that's been through what he's been through and had the level of fame at such an early age that he's had. Um, I would say he seems like a pretty down to earth dude. Uh. And I think you're probably lucky that you get to tour with him and maybe not some others that that that aren't quite as down to earth and cool. That's a good point. Yeah, Like I said, he's the best whole McCartney in the world. I'm sorry, No, this is perfect. We're still working on what we're gonna call this episode, Brian, So it might be that, uh, because you've chosen out of all the Paul McCartney's that's the best. Uh. This this is an absolute pleasure and I have to I have to come cleek here. You know, in our exploration today, you know, we wanted to be really careful not to ask you a thousand questions that you've had to field a thousand times. And well that's when we were taking this to a larger conversation because one thing that I noticed about all the observations that you and we have made today is that they are structurally there are things set to continue, you know, and in the world of musicianship and fandom and stadium concerts, there it seems like there will always be something in the zeitgeist that creates this this lore, like Matt Noel we're saying, and with this in mind, I do have to ask you about like the one quote unquote conspiracy theory that was able to substantiate the idea that Uncle Sam was in some way spying on John Lennon. I have to ask you, Brian, was there has there been a time in your career or in your travels, because you know international as well, where you thought you or your fellow musicians might be being followed or monitored by people other than obsessive fans. Yeah, it's interesting you say that that you asked that. In the early days of being engaged at Facebook and stuff, I did start to feel like, oh, wait a second, this is very big brotherish and what if they're monitoring me what to and I put a tape over my camera on my computer and all that stuff. Yeah, there are times when that does occur to me. Um, but I feel pretty secure and safe that uh, you know, I've turned off my microphone for all of my apps, you know, and I try my bed. It is kind of freaky though, when you're you know, Mandy was just talking about watching something on television and then she turns on her phone and suddenly those those actors and that show is being advertised on her Instagram feed out of nowhere, and so you get a little bit freaky, Like, you know, Alexa, just a little less coffee. Just back it off a little bit. Stop bugging me, Stop reminding me of what I did five minutes ago. I know you want to sell me that rug, but I'm not looking for that rug today because probably you just bought that rug and they keep spamming you with for new rugs. I've never quite gotten why that's how the algorithm works. It seems like someone ought to address that because it's not very it's not very heartful. It's just that you have shopped for it before, or you looked into it. Yeah, exactly. They don't know you bought it or not. They're just gonna keep selling you have the damn rug. I love the idea because would would have first occurred to be I was thinking, what on earth is going on? Is there? How is there a system that's smart enough to know someone might be interested in something, but somehow still at the same time not smart enough to know when to let off? Like do they really think there's someone out there who just bought like a toilet seat and they get ads right where toilet seats? Are they really going to go? Ah? What the heck? I'll I'll treat myself. I'll get another one, you know, just just as a little a little me time. That's great, so funny. Yeah, Well, hey guys, I I know we have to kind of wrap up here. We're getting towards the end of our time. Uh, I want to ask you one more question, Brandon. I'm hoping you can angle it into telling us about your podcast. So, like we started, I started answering the question, and those are my dogs. I apologize, and then we'll get into into your into your podcast, just tell us all about it. So the first part of the question is, uh, you swim in circles just that are beyond my imagination as a drummer, a kid who grew up like wishing to be a musician, wishing to just be around people that are at your caliber and your peers calibers. Um, what what is the weirdest situation you found yourself in? And and it could be weird to whatever whatever way you would like to use the word weird, But just what's the weirdest situation where you thought, man, maybe I shouldn't be here? Um? And and what kinds of things then do you talk about on your show? Well, I mean the first part of the question. I think the weirdest place to find myself is playing with Paul McCartney. You know. I'm mean, I'm a little white kid from Glendale, California, and I am just one of eighty million kids who dreamed of maybe one day having a chance to play with one of the Beatles, you know, And somehow I wrestled that little dream down, and somehow Paul McCartney found me to be the right guy for these nearly twenty years. That's weird. That's an anomaly, you know, that doesn't usually happen. And I'm very aware of that. I'm very very fortunate. Um, they're about seventy nine of those eighty million kids would be very good at doing it. There is no it's because I'm the best guy for it. It's that, Um, I don't know. That's weird. And uh to the second part though a little bit more on that. There was a time when I was very afraid that I wasn't going to be able to make a living playing music. Things had slowed down. I had had a hit with Smokey Robinson in the late eighties, and I'd spend every dime of the money that was coming my way, and now the checks were gonna get smaller. And it was clear to me I was newly sober. I was just trying to find my legs again. And I remember saying what I call the scary prayer. I said, you know, God or higher Power or you know Zeus, whoever is out there, you know, if this is not where I'm meant to be, please show me that, and please show me where I am meant to be of service to my friends and my fellows and to myself and to you. And sometime after that a check came through. I mean, I was ready to go deliver food for Pink Dot. You know, I was really getting scared. My brother said give it another six months. I'm like, oh, thanks a lot. Six months. But anyway, somehow, you know, I, um, you know, one thing led to another and I was rolling again, and and now I'm very glad I didn't go get the job with Pink Dot. But you know, my my podcast called on Tour with Brian Ray by Black Barrel Media, along with My Heart Radio, is an exploration of the struggle and the sacrifices and the hard work that are are necessary to even be in the running for a job like playing with Paul McCartney. Like, how do you even get that in your head that you could do that as a teenager, as a kid, what you want to do? What? Right? You're gonna get beat up if you admit that out loud at school? You know, like, um, so it's like who does that? And I think that a lot of people out there. I just think it's rainbows and toadstools, you know, it must be just golden You're just flying around having nothing but fun. It's like a monkey's show or something. It's like hard day's night all the time. But it it is a lot of hard work, and it's a lot of time off, and it's a lot of alone time. And then you get home from a big fancy tour and it's trash night. So there's a lot of real stuff that goes on that you have to come to terms with, and it's a lot of hard work that I think people out there need to know about. And that was how the Ontour podcast began, was an exploration of that to share with people that it's hard work. We're just other hard working people that do have a weird job. Uh. And you know, we're just about wrapping up season one and this week's guest is uh uh Well, our most recent guest is uh Matt Sorum from the Cult and from Guns and Roses and Velvet Revolver and it's just been a blast, uh And Noel has been a big part of our success, and Mandy Wimmer of course sitting over there um and it's just been a blast. Man. We've been having a great time and we've been doing after shows that we dropped every Friday where we talk about that week's episode that we just dropped, and hey, man, it's just to be honest with you, it's fun to be new at something again because I've been playing music and playing music live and writing music and producing music since I was a teen. Okay, so it's fun to be new at something because it's scary and it's fun and as cool as challenging. Right on. Well, thank you so much for doing such an amazing podcast and for joining us on our podcast to talk about some kind This has been a wonderfully freewheeling conversation. Little Paul McCartney a little inspiration thrown in there for good measure. I've had a great time, and I hope you did too, Brian, thanks again, it's been a blast. Thank you guys so much. Yeah, yes, thank you so much. And folks, if you want to hear the inside scoop, if you want to continue the conversation, please do check out on Tour with Brian Ray. I was earlier no spoilers because you should listen to the episodes. Earlier. I was checking out your after show with your take on Prince and Prince Oh, that's a that's a story for another day. We might have to have you back on the show. But uh, but while we're working that out, folks, please do check out on tour. Please do, and I hope I'm not overstepping here, Brian, Please do go ahead and visit Brian Ray dot com, where you can learn more about your extensive music catalog, what you've got going on currently, what we've got going on in the future. Is an absolute pleasure to spend time with you today. Listeners. Please let us know your take, your take on Beatles conspiracies, Please let us know what you would like to learn more about in the world of music. We try to be easy to find online. Oh one last thing before we do that, whatever you do, you listener who's listening, do not go to YouTube dot com Slash the Bayonets band. Do not go there, and do not listen to Sucker for Love because it will not stop laying in your head for eight years. That's how long it's been there and it will not stop for eight years. Goal achieve. Thank you Matt, thank you Ben, thank you Noel. And one last thing, it was jaed Gar Hoover, not Sam. I knew it. I knew it. Perfect ending we're kind of blowing over that. It's it's it's the one real conspiracy of all those not to blow anyone's bubbles, if you're still entertaining them, but that I know of anyway, it's the one that is true. And it was Dick Nixon, that little devious man, asking Jack or Hoover to do him a favor and and tie this guy up because he's getting too much attention being anti war? Now do you really think so? Yes, it is absolutely true. Wow, it's true. And as Hoover was also, I would say, Hoover and Nixon, we're both crazy, but they were crazy in slightly different ways. That's one thing I didn't ask. I meant to ask, like, how do you think the government handles monitoring like activist musicians? Now? You know, because there has to be something to it. Well, you know, I mean, I guess it's the n S a right that's tasked with monitoring. Well, there's just so much noise out there, you know, they would be incredibly bored with what I'm up to, right, you know, searching cute you know, pet memes late at night. You know, that's about it. That's all that gonna get out of me. But back then, of course that was very cloak and dagger stuff, you know. And um, well they say that Jager Hoover had a lot of skeletons is in his own closet. So there was an element of him projecting out onto the world his shadow self that he couldn't or wouldn't own. And I'll look, I'll let you guys go and look up what those uh, what those proclivities were all about for Mr Hoover. Oh, yeah, you know, you've just been a little more honest than at peace with himself. Yeah, I mean, it's no big deal these days, so what if you want to wear a dress? Mr. To think about this, my parents were both at Kent State University, Brian when all this stuff happened there. And when you think about the Students for a Democratic Society and some of these other you know groups that were just college students getting together many times quietly, you know, publicly, but secretly to some extent, to to plan certain demonstrations and you know, certain actual actions. And they only had so much influence within their sphere. Right then you imagine the influence of somebody like John Lennon. I think if you're in some Ivory Tower, you know, at the FBI or wherever, and you imagine the power that could be wielded by somebody like that. Um I bet it is scary for somebody in that position. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, can you imagine you don't know what they're coming up with, and you're John Lennon and you learn or you suspect there's a file on you, and then you start seeing that your immigration is getting held up. It's really scary, man, scary. So yeah, not cool at all. But um man, We'll imagine if you're William Campbell and you know you're like, oh man, I gotta keep pretending to be Paul McCartney. Uh what what kind of finally got on me? What about this? I mean, you guys know about that song from I think it was Memory Almost Full called My Ever Present Past on Paul's uh Memory Almost Full album, I believe, and he did a video using a Paul McCartney look alike. A really nice guy and that guy is playing Paul in the video and his way of having a little bit of fun with that as well. WHOA, that's our show, folks. Give us a call. One eight st d w y t K You can also send us an email directly where we are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you to know is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.