Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in which we speak with some of the brightest minds working in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief media analyst at Variety Intelligence Platform. The annual Game Developers Conference is under way this week in San Francisco. No better time to take the temperature of the industry than with some of the most informed people on gaming I know. So it's my pleasure to have as my guest Peter Levin, managing director and co founder of the Santa Monica based venture capital firm Griffin Gaming Partners. He and his partners Nick Twasto and Phil Sanderson have a mass more than one billion in assets under management in the gaming sphere, including Discord, Overwolf and fourte Games. Plus he knows the world of entertainment quite well with stints at Lionsgate and Legendary Entertainment, and has also had a hand in some notable adaptations of gaming ip including Amazon's Fallout series. My Variety Intelligence Platform colleague and gaming industry expert Corey Erickson joins us for the discussion as well. We'll be back with them in just a moment, and we are back with Peter Levin and Corey Erickson. I know they're both going to be at the Game Developers Conference, and so I'm wondering what's on their mind in terms of what is going to be the big theme or themes this week. Peter, I want to start with you. Thanks for joining.

Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in which we speak with some of the brightest minds working in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief media analyst at Variety Intelligence Platform. The annual Game Developers Conference is under way this week in San Francisco. No better time to take the temperature of the industry than with some of the most informed people on gaming I know. So it's my pleasure to have as my guest Peter Levin, managing director and co founder of the Santa Monica based venture capital firm Griffin Gaming Partners. He and his partners Nick Twasto and Phil Sanderson have a mass more than one billion in assets under management in the gaming sphere, including Discord, Overwolf and fourte Games. Plus he knows the world of entertainment quite well with stints at Lionsgate and Legendary Entertainment, and has also had a hand in some notable adaptations of gaming ip including Amazon's Fallout series. My Variety Intelligence Platform colleague and gaming industry expert Corey Erickson joins us for the discussion as well. We'll be back with them in just a moment, and we are back with Peter Levin and Corey Erickson. I know they're both going to be at the Game Developers Conference, and so I'm wondering what's on their mind in terms of what is going to be the big theme or themes this week. Peter, I want to start with you. Thanks for joining.

Us, Thank you for having me. Guys. It's Peter.

Us, Thank you for having me. Guys. It's Peter.

What do you think is going to be top of mind for people assembled in San Francisco at the Game Developers Conference?

What do you think is going to be top of mind for people assembled in San Francisco at the Game Developers Conference?

Thank you for having me, guys. I appreciate you making the time. Excited to chat with you leading into this week's Game Developers Conference. The GDC traditionally has been an arena within which you can tackle the established trends within industry, but also those that are emerging. There is a tendency at times to gravitate towards a hype cycle. I think there is an AI hype cycle now that I think is somewhat plateaued versus perhaps over the last one to two years, but nevertheless, it comes up in a majority of the conversations you're having, whether that's with a content company or a platform or infrastructure player. So I think we're going to continue to see a bunch of conversations around AI, its impact on games development, its impact on the picks and shovels businesses in and around games development.

Thank you for having me, guys. I appreciate you making the time. Excited to chat with you leading into this week's Game Developers Conference. The GDC traditionally has been an arena within which you can tackle the established trends within industry, but also those that are emerging. There is a tendency at times to gravitate towards a hype cycle. I think there is an AI hype cycle now that I think is somewhat plateaued versus perhaps over the last one to two years, but nevertheless, it comes up in a majority of the conversations you're having, whether that's with a content company or a platform or infrastructure player. So I think we're going to continue to see a bunch of conversations around AI, its impact on games development, its impact on the picks and shovels businesses in and around games development.

Let's go into the AI of it all a little bit more. In what way do you really see investors taking an interest in generative AI's involvement in gaming versus the sort of AI tech that's always been involved on the gaming side of things.

Let's go into the AI of it all a little bit more. In what way do you really see investors taking an interest in generative AI's involvement in gaming versus the sort of AI tech that's always been involved on the gaming side of things.

I think that's worth double clicking on. A gaming has always been tip of the spear in terms of adapting and adopting innovative technologies from enterprise software. So to your point, AI has been prevalent in gaming for what fifteen plus years, I mean just the non playable characters the NPCs within Call of Duty alone, but in terms of how it is being embraced and how we're seeing it play a major role on the product roadmap going forward. Some of the more obvious ways are the ability to limit some of the resources you have to deploy in terms of the creation of art assets. So you'll still have to create a bible if you will, of art assets and architecture a sandbox, if you will, but AI can add to that instead of having perhaps dozens, if not hundreds of artists that are creating art assets. AI can aid and abet those efforts. Some of the ways we're very excited about the practical application of AI are manifesting in things like customer acquisition, the ability to lever which social media platforms, for example, are the best environments within which to market to a certain customer, Which day parts, which demographic, which geography, ab testing those marketing strategies, leveraging AI things like QA. You know, QA has been it's antiquated, it's been deployed in the same form factor for almost thirty years. Oftentimes it's a lot of kids in their twenties. Perhaps they're tired, they're in a bad mood, they're a bit hungover, they're coming in. Those are your QA testers. Oftentimes that's your cohort. Well. Now, to be able to leverage AI to create efficiencies there, to be able to connect those dots in a more cost effective and efficient manner. Those are the types of picks and shovels businesses that we're also equally as excited about.

I think that's worth double clicking on. A gaming has always been tip of the spear in terms of adapting and adopting innovative technologies from enterprise software. So to your point, AI has been prevalent in gaming for what fifteen plus years, I mean just the non playable characters the NPCs within Call of Duty alone, but in terms of how it is being embraced and how we're seeing it play a major role on the product roadmap going forward. Some of the more obvious ways are the ability to limit some of the resources you have to deploy in terms of the creation of art assets. So you'll still have to create a bible if you will, of art assets and architecture a sandbox, if you will, but AI can add to that instead of having perhaps dozens, if not hundreds of artists that are creating art assets. AI can aid and abet those efforts. Some of the ways we're very excited about the practical application of AI are manifesting in things like customer acquisition, the ability to lever which social media platforms, for example, are the best environments within which to market to a certain customer, Which day parts, which demographic, which geography, ab testing those marketing strategies, leveraging AI things like QA. You know, QA has been it's antiquated, it's been deployed in the same form factor for almost thirty years. Oftentimes it's a lot of kids in their twenties. Perhaps they're tired, they're in a bad mood, they're a bit hungover, they're coming in. Those are your QA testers. Oftentimes that's your cohort. Well. Now, to be able to leverage AI to create efficiencies there, to be able to connect those dots in a more cost effective and efficient manner. Those are the types of picks and shovels businesses that we're also equally as excited about.

Yeah, at g DC, it is a boon for a lot of you know, teams of developers and independent developers to come and seek funding. Do you think you know, any given developers, you know, current use of AI for a game they're working on is going to be integral to getting you know, some of the financial interests involved.

Yeah, at g DC, it is a boon for a lot of you know, teams of developers and independent developers to come and seek funding. Do you think you know, any given developers, you know, current use of AI for a game they're working on is going to be integral to getting you know, some of the financial interests involved.

I think it's almost the converse. I think people will look a bit sideways at you if you haven't baked in you know, m L and AI into your product roadmap. Because the tool sets are readily available, you have the ability to a b tests so much that is out there. And you're also at a time within the cycle where if you're a developer or even a publisher, a lot of these folks that are trying to raise capital on the AI side of that conversation are offering you, you know, very attractive onboarding costs because they're almost eating their own young to be able to establish a customer base so that they can create that escape velocity, that scale of their business. So it's an optimal time to be a developer or publisher and bake in the AI functionality withinto your product roadmap. So I think you again, you would get a lot of sideways glances if you hadn't contemplated how can you leverage both the tools that are currently offered within the marketplace and the prospective opportunity set going.

I think it's almost the converse. I think people will look a bit sideways at you if you haven't baked in you know, m L and AI into your product roadmap. Because the tool sets are readily available, you have the ability to a b tests so much that is out there. And you're also at a time within the cycle where if you're a developer or even a publisher, a lot of these folks that are trying to raise capital on the AI side of that conversation are offering you, you know, very attractive onboarding costs because they're almost eating their own young to be able to establish a customer base so that they can create that escape velocity, that scale of their business. So it's an optimal time to be a developer or publisher and bake in the AI functionality withinto your product roadmap. So I think you again, you would get a lot of sideways glances if you hadn't contemplated how can you leverage both the tools that are currently offered within the marketplace and the prospective opportunity set going.

Forward, extending that to you know, some of the largest companies in the triple A space. Obviously, cost cutting and layoffs were a big defining trend of twenty twenty four, still somewhat of a defining trend, you know, in this early part of twenty twenty five. Do you think, you know, these use cases for AI are just as integral to larger companies or is there you know, more of a significant issue with working around copyrights, working around engineers and game designers who might not be as crazy you know, about incorporating AI into their systems.

Forward, extending that to you know, some of the largest companies in the triple A space. Obviously, cost cutting and layoffs were a big defining trend of twenty twenty four, still somewhat of a defining trend, you know, in this early part of twenty twenty five. Do you think, you know, these use cases for AI are just as integral to larger companies or is there you know, more of a significant issue with working around copyrights, working around engineers and game designers who might not be as crazy you know, about incorporating AI into their systems.

Well, I think if they're not crazy about it, I that that's going to happen with or without their sentiment. Okay, And one of the things I say this jently and lightly and certainly not celebrating the eradication of anyone's jobs, but gaming traditionally has been much more akin to enterprise software with respect to recognizing when they need to trim the fat, and legacy media has been horrible at that, as evidenced by you can drive on any of the lots right now and you're going to see high rise buildings and you're going to scratch your head and say what exactly do those thousands of people do within that building? Or you drive by the music labels in Santa Monica and oftentimes queer yourself, why exactly do they need that many people to run a music business. In the current state of play, I think gaming has been a bit more self aware and quite frankly, a bit more mercenary about the ability to shed that weight when necessary and adopting those bleeding edge technologies. I think a lot of that comes from in years past. Prior to now gaming is somewhat king of the hill. In years past, it had to be a scrappy industry. You know, margins were volatile. You know, you never knew you know, where that quote unquote next paycheck was going to come from. And so being able to flex that muscle and to get lean when you needed to came very naturally to the games industry. I also do think again, some of that comes from the crossover between enterprise software and the DNA of enterprise software into gaming.

Well, I think if they're not crazy about it, I that that's going to happen with or without their sentiment. Okay, And one of the things I say this jently and lightly and certainly not celebrating the eradication of anyone's jobs, but gaming traditionally has been much more akin to enterprise software with respect to recognizing when they need to trim the fat, and legacy media has been horrible at that, as evidenced by you can drive on any of the lots right now and you're going to see high rise buildings and you're going to scratch your head and say what exactly do those thousands of people do within that building? Or you drive by the music labels in Santa Monica and oftentimes queer yourself, why exactly do they need that many people to run a music business. In the current state of play, I think gaming has been a bit more self aware and quite frankly, a bit more mercenary about the ability to shed that weight when necessary and adopting those bleeding edge technologies. I think a lot of that comes from in years past. Prior to now gaming is somewhat king of the hill. In years past, it had to be a scrappy industry. You know, margins were volatile. You know, you never knew you know, where that quote unquote next paycheck was going to come from. And so being able to flex that muscle and to get lean when you needed to came very naturally to the games industry. I also do think again, some of that comes from the crossover between enterprise software and the DNA of enterprise software into gaming.

Speaking to volatility, going into this GDC conference, you know, what do you see as the more optimistic trains of thoughts and trends that are going to be you know, defining the experience, whether it is in you know, the triple A console, PC sector or mobile.

Speaking to volatility, going into this GDC conference, you know, what do you see as the more optimistic trains of thoughts and trends that are going to be you know, defining the experience, whether it is in you know, the triple A console, PC sector or mobile.

You know, I wear two hats, right, So there's part of me that celebrates a bumpy market and when things get more challenging because as an investor, that chases away a lot of what we call tourist capital. And there were years just coming out of COVID twenty one twenty two, for example, there was so much taurus capital that got attracted to gaming. It artificially inflated a lot of valuations, and we found it very hard as an allocator to underwrite businesses. We were not going to debase ourselves from our discipline, and so the zenith moments at times are more challenging as an investor. In terms of this year's GDC, however, there's a lot of conversation around what's going on in the console space. You know, we're between consoles yet at the same time, depending on who you believe at any given moment, you know, GTA six is coming out this year, and you also have the launch of Switch to and as someone who can't get enough of the Switch and everything you know, Me, Moto and Nintendo bring to the market, there's a tremendous amount of excitement around that console, that piece of hardware as well. So I think there's a lot of conversation on the triple A level around launch titles, around DLC, around existing titles and what will that suite of launch titles look like. There continues to be growth in mobile. There continues to be growth in emerging markets, you know that are less sexy to talk about, but when you look at markets like the Indian subcontinent, Middle East, North Africa, Southeast Asia for example, just continues to be explosive. Africa proper, and even parts of Latin America. You've got Brazil where regulation is lifting up for the first time in a very long time. More attractive to external capital, you know, certainly as again as an investor that's been a gatekeeper no longer Mexico, Columbia, et cetera. So I think emerging markets are incredibly exciting, but also the demographics amount mobile doesn't get talked about enough in our opinion. You know, females do comprise fifty percent of that cohort, and they control actually more spend on the mobile platform. So there's going to be more and more growth there, more product offerings, to that consuming constituency being the female. So I think there continues to be excitement around that more. You know, venture dollars being deployed against female founders is.

You know, I wear two hats, right, So there's part of me that celebrates a bumpy market and when things get more challenging because as an investor, that chases away a lot of what we call tourist capital. And there were years just coming out of COVID twenty one twenty two, for example, there was so much taurus capital that got attracted to gaming. It artificially inflated a lot of valuations, and we found it very hard as an allocator to underwrite businesses. We were not going to debase ourselves from our discipline, and so the zenith moments at times are more challenging as an investor. In terms of this year's GDC, however, there's a lot of conversation around what's going on in the console space. You know, we're between consoles yet at the same time, depending on who you believe at any given moment, you know, GTA six is coming out this year, and you also have the launch of Switch to and as someone who can't get enough of the Switch and everything you know, Me, Moto and Nintendo bring to the market, there's a tremendous amount of excitement around that console, that piece of hardware as well. So I think there's a lot of conversation on the triple A level around launch titles, around DLC, around existing titles and what will that suite of launch titles look like. There continues to be growth in mobile. There continues to be growth in emerging markets, you know that are less sexy to talk about, but when you look at markets like the Indian subcontinent, Middle East, North Africa, Southeast Asia for example, just continues to be explosive. Africa proper, and even parts of Latin America. You've got Brazil where regulation is lifting up for the first time in a very long time. More attractive to external capital, you know, certainly as again as an investor that's been a gatekeeper no longer Mexico, Columbia, et cetera. So I think emerging markets are incredibly exciting, but also the demographics amount mobile doesn't get talked about enough in our opinion. You know, females do comprise fifty percent of that cohort, and they control actually more spend on the mobile platform. So there's going to be more and more growth there, more product offerings, to that consuming constituency being the female. So I think there continues to be excitement around that more. You know, venture dollars being deployed against female founders is.

The basis of this mobile growth in emerging markets, you know, tied to continued smartphone proliferation, i e. There still aren't as many smartphones in places of the world as there can be.

The basis of this mobile growth in emerging markets, you know, tied to continued smartphone proliferation, i e. There still aren't as many smartphones in places of the world as there can be.

Correct and I think India is a great example of that. Right, So you've got Reliance and Geo who got in there and really changed the contours of that market almost overnight. So you traditionally had a demographic with very little disposable income, you know, an inability to embrace a spending model that would be attractive to developers and publishers. You know, turn around and now you've got Geo and you've got Reliance deploying a lot of dollars against attracting a younger demographic with more disposable income. Product form factors are a rising above the noise. Advertising is pay is playing a large role there and so we see sim are signal coming out of places like you know, North Africa and Africa proper. I think that's a ways off, at least from being underwriteable, but there's a lot of folks who kind of have trained the eye of Saurron, if you will, towards that market with a great deal of interest, because the numbers are gob smacking, the demographics are gobsmacking, and that applies to Middle East North Africa as well. There are markets in the Middle East where seventy percent of the population is under the age of thirty and they're all gaming.

Correct and I think India is a great example of that. Right, So you've got Reliance and Geo who got in there and really changed the contours of that market almost overnight. So you traditionally had a demographic with very little disposable income, you know, an inability to embrace a spending model that would be attractive to developers and publishers. You know, turn around and now you've got Geo and you've got Reliance deploying a lot of dollars against attracting a younger demographic with more disposable income. Product form factors are a rising above the noise. Advertising is pay is playing a large role there and so we see sim are signal coming out of places like you know, North Africa and Africa proper. I think that's a ways off, at least from being underwriteable, but there's a lot of folks who kind of have trained the eye of Saurron, if you will, towards that market with a great deal of interest, because the numbers are gob smacking, the demographics are gobsmacking, and that applies to Middle East North Africa as well. There are markets in the Middle East where seventy percent of the population is under the age of thirty and they're all gaming.

What about Europe, I've noticed within Griffin's investment portfolio you've invested some money into both Finnish and Swedish gaming studios as of late.

What about Europe, I've noticed within Griffin's investment portfolio you've invested some money into both Finnish and Swedish gaming studios as of late.

Yeah, I mean we're all over Europe, Western Europe, Northern Europe. Look, I've been to Finland fifty six times. Are One of our most recent investments was a bit odd out of Helsinki, las Lehento, who was one of the co founders of Supercel. You know, he was one of the creative geniuses behind Clash of Clans. You know, we'll continue to invest in markets like that, you know, very bullish on the talent that's coming out of the UK, Spain, Italy, France and France is a little more challenging just because of labor laws. But we've invested there as well, so we continue to be excited about Western and Northern Europe.

Yeah, I mean we're all over Europe, Western Europe, Northern Europe. Look, I've been to Finland fifty six times. Are One of our most recent investments was a bit odd out of Helsinki, las Lehento, who was one of the co founders of Supercel. You know, he was one of the creative geniuses behind Clash of Clans. You know, we'll continue to invest in markets like that, you know, very bullish on the talent that's coming out of the UK, Spain, Italy, France and France is a little more challenging just because of labor laws. But we've invested there as well, so we continue to be excited about Western and Northern Europe.

I want to bring up one finish company, Remedy Games, just because they were the subject of one of the more interesting deals in gaming to come about last year where they struck a deal with an A Picture Anapurna Pictures here in Hollywood to you know, invest money into their own sequel, Control Too, in exchange for exclusive rights to the Control and Alan wakeyps for the film and TV side. Do you see a deal like that, as you know, a more progressive example of how Hollywood and gaming can work in tandem with each other.

I want to bring up one finish company, Remedy Games, just because they were the subject of one of the more interesting deals in gaming to come about last year where they struck a deal with an A Picture Anapurna Pictures here in Hollywood to you know, invest money into their own sequel, Control Too, in exchange for exclusive rights to the Control and Alan wakeyps for the film and TV side. Do you see a deal like that, as you know, a more progressive example of how Hollywood and gaming can work in tandem with each other.

I think it's a great example of thinking outside of the box, and I think you're going to continue to see both communities trying to figure out how to play together. I think a large driver of that is on the more legacy media side. On the traditional media side, you have folks who now grew up playing games, and they're passionate about those games that they grew up playing, and so there's a much deeper understanding about the media form factor versus just an antiseptic look at oh wow, look how many units that game sold, right, or look at how many eyeballs are on this title, versus you've got showrunners and writers and producers and directors and CEOs and C suite management that grew up obsessed with games, you know, as obsessed with the generation prior perhaps were with reading books or comic books or graphic novels and whatnot. So I think that's a huge driver of folks trying to bridge the gap. You can't ignore the fact that gaming is larger than music, movies, and publishing combined. And if anyone is looking at that data, they're going to come to the conclusion that, hey, this is a this is a compelling demographic for us to engage. This is a wonderful way to tell stories. And if you just look at the track record over the past five years, everything from you know, big titles like Super Mario Grand Turismo, Five Nights at Freddy's, you know, to what is It The Gangs of London, you know, and some of the more indie titles that are out there. Sonic continues to perform. You now have world class writers being attracted to these ips because again they grew up obsessed playing the games. You have talent, you know that just want to be able to show their kids. Hey, I was in a Sonic movie because they love the game or their kids, you know, love the game. So I think there's a genuine appetite to try to figure out how to play together more holistically.

I think it's a great example of thinking outside of the box, and I think you're going to continue to see both communities trying to figure out how to play together. I think a large driver of that is on the more legacy media side. On the traditional media side, you have folks who now grew up playing games, and they're passionate about those games that they grew up playing, and so there's a much deeper understanding about the media form factor versus just an antiseptic look at oh wow, look how many units that game sold, right, or look at how many eyeballs are on this title, versus you've got showrunners and writers and producers and directors and CEOs and C suite management that grew up obsessed with games, you know, as obsessed with the generation prior perhaps were with reading books or comic books or graphic novels and whatnot. So I think that's a huge driver of folks trying to bridge the gap. You can't ignore the fact that gaming is larger than music, movies, and publishing combined. And if anyone is looking at that data, they're going to come to the conclusion that, hey, this is a this is a compelling demographic for us to engage. This is a wonderful way to tell stories. And if you just look at the track record over the past five years, everything from you know, big titles like Super Mario Grand Turismo, Five Nights at Freddy's, you know, to what is It The Gangs of London, you know, and some of the more indie titles that are out there. Sonic continues to perform. You now have world class writers being attracted to these ips because again they grew up obsessed playing the games. You have talent, you know that just want to be able to show their kids. Hey, I was in a Sonic movie because they love the game or their kids, you know, love the game. So I think there's a genuine appetite to try to figure out how to play together more holistically.

We'll be back in just a moment with more with Peter Levin.

We'll be back in just a moment with more with Peter Levin.

Stick around.

Stick around.

And we are back with Peter Levin from Griffin Gaming Partners. He's in conversation with Corey Erickson a variety intelligence platform and we have been talking about the state of the gaming business the occasion of the Game Developers Conference. Peter, if you could talk a bit more, you've hopscotching the globe with us talking about various markets. Give a sense if you could, about the state of emerging markets out there. What is catching your eye and how does it inform your investing strategy.

And we are back with Peter Levin from Griffin Gaming Partners. He's in conversation with Corey Erickson a variety intelligence platform and we have been talking about the state of the gaming business the occasion of the Game Developers Conference. Peter, if you could talk a bit more, you've hopscotching the globe with us talking about various markets. Give a sense if you could, about the state of emerging markets out there. What is catching your eye and how does it inform your investing strategy.

You knows as mentioned some of the markets that have percolated to the top for US, Middle East, North Africa. There's a tremendous amount of activity there, both from an investing into the sector orientation, but also the demographics and the consumption patterns cannot be ignored when you look at and that's a cross platform by the way, that's not discrete to mobile or PC or console, which is also a fascinating pair of time. You've got an entire youth that are engaged in gaming, many of whom would like to pursue a career in gaming, many of whom currently have to either attend university in Western Europe or North America. So I think that's also changing. I think you're seeing more and more of these markets embrace university curriculum so that they can. Northern Europe is a great example of that, as is Western Europe, but Northern Europe is a great example of introducing the curriculum so that kids locally, students locally, you know, find themselves with an option to a career path within gaming. So you're seeing more and more of that happen in markets like Middle East, North Africa and again Africa proper. The year numbers are incredible. You've got the telco players, whether that's the mittals or the mtns or the vodaphones. You know, they're looking at what some of the other carriers have done in markets like North America where they've left a lot of money on the table. You know the fact that these carriers really don't participate in these markets in the economics you've got Google gobbling up, and you've got obviously Apple and iOS gobbling up their share. But at some point these carriers become self commoditizing, big fat pipes. And that's a mistake that I think in a lot of emerging markets they would like to fix. So they're going to invest directly into content. They want more skin in the game, they want a more intimate relationship with that consuming demographic.

You knows as mentioned some of the markets that have percolated to the top for US, Middle East, North Africa. There's a tremendous amount of activity there, both from an investing into the sector orientation, but also the demographics and the consumption patterns cannot be ignored when you look at and that's a cross platform by the way, that's not discrete to mobile or PC or console, which is also a fascinating pair of time. You've got an entire youth that are engaged in gaming, many of whom would like to pursue a career in gaming, many of whom currently have to either attend university in Western Europe or North America. So I think that's also changing. I think you're seeing more and more of these markets embrace university curriculum so that they can. Northern Europe is a great example of that, as is Western Europe, but Northern Europe is a great example of introducing the curriculum so that kids locally, students locally, you know, find themselves with an option to a career path within gaming. So you're seeing more and more of that happen in markets like Middle East, North Africa and again Africa proper. The year numbers are incredible. You've got the telco players, whether that's the mittals or the mtns or the vodaphones. You know, they're looking at what some of the other carriers have done in markets like North America where they've left a lot of money on the table. You know the fact that these carriers really don't participate in these markets in the economics you've got Google gobbling up, and you've got obviously Apple and iOS gobbling up their share. But at some point these carriers become self commoditizing, big fat pipes. And that's a mistake that I think in a lot of emerging markets they would like to fix. So they're going to invest directly into content. They want more skin in the game, they want a more intimate relationship with that consuming demographic.

And do you think the talent coming from emerging markets is going to be you know, pivotal in getting you know, some bigger companies back on track with more consistent release pipelines and you know, instead of spending five or even more years stuck in sort of endless development cycles for you know, some of the bigger Triple A Games is investing in smaller developers going to sort of be the way to get a more bounced pipeline.

And do you think the talent coming from emerging markets is going to be you know, pivotal in getting you know, some bigger companies back on track with more consistent release pipelines and you know, instead of spending five or even more years stuck in sort of endless development cycles for you know, some of the bigger Triple A Games is investing in smaller developers going to sort of be the way to get a more bounced pipeline.

Again, I think that's the hope, that's the aspiration. I think part of the challenge. You can look at anomalist you know, outlying markets like Turkey for example. This less relevant for Triple A Corey, but you know, if you look at Turkey and how they punch above their weight and mobile just an incredible work ethic there. It's an incredible talent pool, very much stemming from companies like Peak and Graham Selling exiting to Zinga. You know, Peak for one point eight billion. I believe those teams once their non competes were up, you had the founding teams spinning up new studios. We saw things very similar happen in markets like Finland. Israel's another market where we see this happen constantly. I think you are going to see that start to happen more frequently with Triple A. But there's a question mark in emerging markets because of the point I brought up earlier, which is I think you do have to have a path to learning at a local university and so that kids can attend school. They can they can hone their skills, whether that's on the development side, the publishing side, the marketing side. They can start businesses up locally, they can attract town because right now you see a lot of expats in emerging markets, and I think that's one way you know, to address the opportunity. But at some point you have to have local talent. It's less expensive. They understand not just the localization of content, but the culturalization of content, which is a much harder needle to threat.

Again, I think that's the hope, that's the aspiration. I think part of the challenge. You can look at anomalist you know, outlying markets like Turkey for example. This less relevant for Triple A Corey, but you know, if you look at Turkey and how they punch above their weight and mobile just an incredible work ethic there. It's an incredible talent pool, very much stemming from companies like Peak and Graham Selling exiting to Zinga. You know, Peak for one point eight billion. I believe those teams once their non competes were up, you had the founding teams spinning up new studios. We saw things very similar happen in markets like Finland. Israel's another market where we see this happen constantly. I think you are going to see that start to happen more frequently with Triple A. But there's a question mark in emerging markets because of the point I brought up earlier, which is I think you do have to have a path to learning at a local university and so that kids can attend school. They can they can hone their skills, whether that's on the development side, the publishing side, the marketing side. They can start businesses up locally, they can attract town because right now you see a lot of expats in emerging markets, and I think that's one way you know, to address the opportunity. But at some point you have to have local talent. It's less expensive. They understand not just the localization of content, but the culturalization of content, which is a much harder needle to threat.

Speaking to gaming in the Middle East, one of the biggest investors in the space is Savvy Games Group. You know, they're part of Saudi Arabia's public investment fund. They acquired scope Lee for close to five billion in twenty twenty three, and scope Lee just of course, is in the process of acquiring Niantics gaming assets, including Pokemon Go. Do you see you know, MNA seeing more of a resurgence again in the gaming space, you know, coming out of this out of the past two years of extensive layoffs, similar to sort of after twenty twenty when we saw a lot of you know, very busy and high activity in the space.

Speaking to gaming in the Middle East, one of the biggest investors in the space is Savvy Games Group. You know, they're part of Saudi Arabia's public investment fund. They acquired scope Lee for close to five billion in twenty twenty three, and scope Lee just of course, is in the process of acquiring Niantics gaming assets, including Pokemon Go. Do you see you know, MNA seeing more of a resurgence again in the gaming space, you know, coming out of this out of the past two years of extensive layoffs, similar to sort of after twenty twenty when we saw a lot of you know, very busy and high activity in the space.

Yeah, I don't. I'm not sure one has anything to do with the other. I think you're going to continue to see layoffs in the industry if the industry feels like there are inefficiencies, and I think that's healthy. I think again, as you know, as as I referenced, I think gaming has always had a a self aware, healthy lens through which it looks at kind of trimming the fat, you know, the M and A. Depending on whether that's early stage or growth or you know, at large scale, you're going to continue to see M and A as new actors entered the theater. Right You recently had Netflix purchased their fifth game studio actually out of Helsinki, Next Games, and by the way, Next Games two of their big titles, two of their the two big titles they had in their portfolio were The Walking Dead and Stranger Things, you know, both established brand ips. I think Netflix bought them, you know, for that reason. So you're going to continue to see whether it's the netflixes of the world. You know, does Roku jump into the fray? Will the other streaming platforms have to jump into the fray? You know, they certainly don't want to drive people off platform to engage gaming elsewhere because the reacquisition of those customers is expensive. It's prohibitive the telcos do they become a viable buyer down the road. Certainly, Internationally, you're hearing more and more rumblings along those lines. So you've got Discord, you know, as announced I think it was yesterday or the day before or at the end of last week, exploring the public markets and interviewing bankers for a potential IPO. So you're going to see potentially more liquidity there, you know that they'll get to play with I mean, Scopoley is just to look, we're investors in scope Lee. Full disclosure would have been great if they waited a couple of months to sell as Monopoly Goo came out, you know, just a couple of months after that that sale closed. But just a great story of a team that scaled intelligently, some really sharp m and a along the way. So I think you're going to continue to see that.

Yeah, I don't. I'm not sure one has anything to do with the other. I think you're going to continue to see layoffs in the industry if the industry feels like there are inefficiencies, and I think that's healthy. I think again, as you know, as as I referenced, I think gaming has always had a a self aware, healthy lens through which it looks at kind of trimming the fat, you know, the M and A. Depending on whether that's early stage or growth or you know, at large scale, you're going to continue to see M and A as new actors entered the theater. Right You recently had Netflix purchased their fifth game studio actually out of Helsinki, Next Games, and by the way, Next Games two of their big titles, two of their the two big titles they had in their portfolio were The Walking Dead and Stranger Things, you know, both established brand ips. I think Netflix bought them, you know, for that reason. So you're going to continue to see whether it's the netflixes of the world. You know, does Roku jump into the fray? Will the other streaming platforms have to jump into the fray? You know, they certainly don't want to drive people off platform to engage gaming elsewhere because the reacquisition of those customers is expensive. It's prohibitive the telcos do they become a viable buyer down the road. Certainly, Internationally, you're hearing more and more rumblings along those lines. So you've got Discord, you know, as announced I think it was yesterday or the day before or at the end of last week, exploring the public markets and interviewing bankers for a potential IPO. So you're going to see potentially more liquidity there, you know that they'll get to play with I mean, Scopoley is just to look, we're investors in scope Lee. Full disclosure would have been great if they waited a couple of months to sell as Monopoly Goo came out, you know, just a couple of months after that that sale closed. But just a great story of a team that scaled intelligently, some really sharp m and a along the way. So I think you're going to continue to see that.

Yes, you mentioned Netflix earlier. Yeah, Netflix has built out its studios, you know, within its gaming division and a launch into games around twenty twenty one. But in the same breath, Netflix also shut down, you know, its own Triple A IP it had been working on not too long ago. Do you do you see that, as you know, evidence of difficulty in the market to really get you know, sort of top shelf Triple A games as well as you know, some of the bigger live services out the door, or you know, is this just a kind of typical Netflix thing of them wanting to try to do everything and you know, struggling to realize it's not that simple.

Yes, you mentioned Netflix earlier. Yeah, Netflix has built out its studios, you know, within its gaming division and a launch into games around twenty twenty one. But in the same breath, Netflix also shut down, you know, its own Triple A IP it had been working on not too long ago. Do you do you see that, as you know, evidence of difficulty in the market to really get you know, sort of top shelf Triple A games as well as you know, some of the bigger live services out the door, or you know, is this just a kind of typical Netflix thing of them wanting to try to do everything and you know, struggling to realize it's not that simple.

Mike takes a little different I think if I look at what Google did with Stadia for example. It didn't work out. Was it a shot on goal worth taking? Absolutely? Will they continue to take shots on goal and gaming without a doubt They have to. It's just too big of an audience. There's too much money on the table. I think similarly with Netflix, I commend them for taking the shot on goal. I think they and folks like Google and folks like Microsoft again do a better job of shelving projects if they're not working out and not continuing to throw good money after bad and they'll continue to try to problem solve. I think they have to, you know, there's no way around it, and that's a great thing for us in our position within the industry. But I also think it's great for the consumer to be able to be on platform and to you know, stream longer form content, shorter form content, serialize content, and gaming. It makes all the sense in the world. So I'm not going to fault them for shutting down you know, triple A first party intellectual property. I give them credit for taking the shot on goal. I give them credit for putting a bullet in the head you know of it, you know, before it became a drag and I look forward to, you know, what they're going to bring next. They're smart folks over there. You know, there's a reason why they've been able to do what they've been able to do. So certainly not counting them out, and you know, streating my master's degree in the obvious, it's also a very good thing for someone in my position to have another buyer out there in the market. So we're certainly rooting for them.

Mike takes a little different I think if I look at what Google did with Stadia for example. It didn't work out. Was it a shot on goal worth taking? Absolutely? Will they continue to take shots on goal and gaming without a doubt They have to. It's just too big of an audience. There's too much money on the table. I think similarly with Netflix, I commend them for taking the shot on goal. I think they and folks like Google and folks like Microsoft again do a better job of shelving projects if they're not working out and not continuing to throw good money after bad and they'll continue to try to problem solve. I think they have to, you know, there's no way around it, and that's a great thing for us in our position within the industry. But I also think it's great for the consumer to be able to be on platform and to you know, stream longer form content, shorter form content, serialize content, and gaming. It makes all the sense in the world. So I'm not going to fault them for shutting down you know, triple A first party intellectual property. I give them credit for taking the shot on goal. I give them credit for putting a bullet in the head you know of it, you know, before it became a drag and I look forward to, you know, what they're going to bring next. They're smart folks over there. You know, there's a reason why they've been able to do what they've been able to do. So certainly not counting them out, and you know, streating my master's degree in the obvious, it's also a very good thing for someone in my position to have another buyer out there in the market. So we're certainly rooting for them.

And it does help to have a three hundred million global subscribers versus you know, Stadia having to start from scratch.

And it does help to have a three hundred million global subscribers versus you know, Stadia having to start from scratch.

It without a doubt. And I think that's what I meant at the top of the call, where I at the top of the conversation, where I think folks are going to come at this with different form factors and that's okay. I think there's going to be a lot of ab testing in the market that as well is okay. That is really good for the consumer. Let's find out where there's going to be traction. You know, we never know where that's going to come from. But having folks like this getting active in our backyard is a good thing. They're making the endemics look small, you know. I think at the end of the day. That's really good for the end user.

It without a doubt. And I think that's what I meant at the top of the call, where I at the top of the conversation, where I think folks are going to come at this with different form factors and that's okay. I think there's going to be a lot of ab testing in the market that as well is okay. That is really good for the consumer. Let's find out where there's going to be traction. You know, we never know where that's going to come from. But having folks like this getting active in our backyard is a good thing. They're making the endemics look small, you know. I think at the end of the day. That's really good for the end user.

I want to go back to, you know, the Hollywood element of this current gaming moment we're in. You mentioned, you know, Five Nights of Freddy's before as an example of a successful trans of gaming IP to the movie space. What was the process that led to Russell Binder, who is involved extensively with that franchise, into joining Griffin as a venture partner an IP advisor.

I want to go back to, you know, the Hollywood element of this current gaming moment we're in. You mentioned, you know, Five Nights of Freddy's before as an example of a successful trans of gaming IP to the movie space. What was the process that led to Russell Binder, who is involved extensively with that franchise, into joining Griffin as a venture partner an IP advisor.

That was a no brainer. I mean, I think we strive to bring on whether they're venture partners, IP advisors, operating partners, an elite class of human and he's, in my eyes, he's kind of one of one. He's been doing this for so very, very long. He really does understand this hub spoke model. And traditionally that hub was either a film or a television series, and the spoke would be the toyatak adaptation, the licensing and merchandising, the podcast, the comic book, the graphic novel, the game. The inversion of that has taken place, and Russell has embraced it quite frankly out of necessity, you know, more so than out of opportunity, and I like that that scrappy nature you know when I stumbled upon Rovio very early on, before it was even known to be a thing here in the States. Only because again I was one of my fifty six trips over to Finland, I founded early on. I was able to get introduced to the founders of that company. They were kind enough to invite me in as a small investor and advisor, And my first phone call from Helsinki from Finland was to Russell Binder and I said, Russell, I think I'm about to hand you the biggest piece of business you've never heard of. And within a year that guy had created a billion dollar plus licensing a merchandise program. So I think having that fortitude, that trust as well from those on the other side of the conversation is mission critical. You know, when you've spent decades as someone thriving in the licensing and merchandise side of the business, that could be a swarmy end of the pool. You know, that's where forensic accountants get involved. And you know, Russell's a stand up person with a reputation really unlike anyone else out there. But he also now has a track record of creating unbelievably contemplative programs around some of the world's biggest ip. We're talking Hunger Games and Twilight and the Walking Dead and Angry Birds. You know, what he's done with Five Nights is just incredible and it's a great ip you know at the heart of it, but it is a bit of that inversion of the hub and spoke model.

That was a no brainer. I mean, I think we strive to bring on whether they're venture partners, IP advisors, operating partners, an elite class of human and he's, in my eyes, he's kind of one of one. He's been doing this for so very, very long. He really does understand this hub spoke model. And traditionally that hub was either a film or a television series, and the spoke would be the toyatak adaptation, the licensing and merchandising, the podcast, the comic book, the graphic novel, the game. The inversion of that has taken place, and Russell has embraced it quite frankly out of necessity, you know, more so than out of opportunity, and I like that that scrappy nature you know when I stumbled upon Rovio very early on, before it was even known to be a thing here in the States. Only because again I was one of my fifty six trips over to Finland, I founded early on. I was able to get introduced to the founders of that company. They were kind enough to invite me in as a small investor and advisor, And my first phone call from Helsinki from Finland was to Russell Binder and I said, Russell, I think I'm about to hand you the biggest piece of business you've never heard of. And within a year that guy had created a billion dollar plus licensing a merchandise program. So I think having that fortitude, that trust as well from those on the other side of the conversation is mission critical. You know, when you've spent decades as someone thriving in the licensing and merchandise side of the business, that could be a swarmy end of the pool. You know, that's where forensic accountants get involved. And you know, Russell's a stand up person with a reputation really unlike anyone else out there. But he also now has a track record of creating unbelievably contemplative programs around some of the world's biggest ip. We're talking Hunger Games and Twilight and the Walking Dead and Angry Birds. You know, what he's done with Five Nights is just incredible and it's a great ip you know at the heart of it, but it is a bit of that inversion of the hub and spoke model.

And it's also worth mentioning Five Nights at Freddy's does have a sequel do this December again from Universal. But before then we have April twenty twenty five, which is going to be huge for adaptations of gaming IP. We have a Minecraft movie from Warner Brothers out the first weekend of April. That's I think pretty expensive. The budget is reportedly around one hundred and fifty million, but it's also with Jack Black comedy, so that's one example on the film side at sort of the big budget level. Then the next week, The Last of Us returns on HBO with a little bit of a smaller season, seven episodes this time instead of the nine episodes of the debut season. And then towards the end of the month, we have Sony's Until Dawn, which you know comes from their own Until Dawn game in twenty fifteen. That was also remade last year. Do you think between those three adaptations that represents a pretty you know, diverse approach to adapting different gaming ip at the Hollywood level, or do you still think there's more that hasn't really been tapped into yet.

And it's also worth mentioning Five Nights at Freddy's does have a sequel do this December again from Universal. But before then we have April twenty twenty five, which is going to be huge for adaptations of gaming IP. We have a Minecraft movie from Warner Brothers out the first weekend of April. That's I think pretty expensive. The budget is reportedly around one hundred and fifty million, but it's also with Jack Black comedy, so that's one example on the film side at sort of the big budget level. Then the next week, The Last of Us returns on HBO with a little bit of a smaller season, seven episodes this time instead of the nine episodes of the debut season. And then towards the end of the month, we have Sony's Until Dawn, which you know comes from their own Until Dawn game in twenty fifteen. That was also remade last year. Do you think between those three adaptations that represents a pretty you know, diverse approach to adapting different gaming ip at the Hollywood level, or do you still think there's more that hasn't really been tapped into yet.

I think there's tons more that hasn't been tapped into yet, which is super exciting, you know. I think a lot of what has been where there has been energy deployed, are the titles that we're all very familiar with, right, So everybody knows Minecraft, you know, when you look at the Last of Us, probably lesser known. I don't want to put Minecraft and the Last of Us in the same basket and bucket, but lots of folks familiar with Last of Us. You know, if you were looking at, hey, let's adapt you know, the top ten ips on a given sales chart, you know back in the day, right, that's why Warcraft the movie got made and almost watchable movie back in the day, you know, but for China that movie would have been write off. You know. The Chinese saved that movie at the box office. But I'm not dismissive of what you know, this year's slate of adaptations can do. I think it's phenomenal. But to your question, I think it's equally as exciting some of the genres that have been untapped. You know, if you look at again just the size of the female cohort on mobile and the types of games that they're engaged in, some of which have really rich stories and developed characters and a menagerie of characters ensembles, if you will, that I think these could be adapted, you know, whether those are kind of late night rom comms or more you know, evening soap opera type of fair that you find on streaming platforms or podcasts, or adapted into you know, publishing vehicles. You know, I think that's an area that's the less obvious, less sexy, but the numbers are are tremendous and not to be ignored. And I think that's just one of many, many of the genres and even those kind of crossover genres that I think you're going to continue to see being tapped into. You know, I think what Netflix has been able to do, you know, with its portfolio of games intellectual property and how it plays with it even from you know, the documentary side of some of the vehicles that they've created, when you talk to, you know, the execs out there from the legacy media side, again, whether that's the showrunners or the producers, you know, writers, directors, you know, executives, that there is a recognition now that this is a force to be reckoned with. And I do think the conversation around tapping into some of these lesser explored geographies within the gaming landscape are going to start to happen. And I know that just because even within our own portfolio, we have companies that are being approached by you know, traditional media companies that in years past they never would have been. And these are left of center eyps, you know that skew to a more exotic demographic, if you will, then just middle of the fair way, you know, kind of last of us look fallout as someone who played a you know, a fun role in helping to architect that that was a little more obvious to play with. I think some of the things you're going to see kind of round two, in Round three and years going forward are going to be some of these more quote unquote niche genres and sub genres whose audience is actually eclipse, you know, some of the more mainstream, you know, kind of testosterone injected ips that we continue to see adapted.

I think there's tons more that hasn't been tapped into yet, which is super exciting, you know. I think a lot of what has been where there has been energy deployed, are the titles that we're all very familiar with, right, So everybody knows Minecraft, you know, when you look at the Last of Us, probably lesser known. I don't want to put Minecraft and the Last of Us in the same basket and bucket, but lots of folks familiar with Last of Us. You know, if you were looking at, hey, let's adapt you know, the top ten ips on a given sales chart, you know back in the day, right, that's why Warcraft the movie got made and almost watchable movie back in the day, you know, but for China that movie would have been write off. You know. The Chinese saved that movie at the box office. But I'm not dismissive of what you know, this year's slate of adaptations can do. I think it's phenomenal. But to your question, I think it's equally as exciting some of the genres that have been untapped. You know, if you look at again just the size of the female cohort on mobile and the types of games that they're engaged in, some of which have really rich stories and developed characters and a menagerie of characters ensembles, if you will, that I think these could be adapted, you know, whether those are kind of late night rom comms or more you know, evening soap opera type of fair that you find on streaming platforms or podcasts, or adapted into you know, publishing vehicles. You know, I think that's an area that's the less obvious, less sexy, but the numbers are are tremendous and not to be ignored. And I think that's just one of many, many of the genres and even those kind of crossover genres that I think you're going to continue to see being tapped into. You know, I think what Netflix has been able to do, you know, with its portfolio of games intellectual property and how it plays with it even from you know, the documentary side of some of the vehicles that they've created, when you talk to, you know, the execs out there from the legacy media side, again, whether that's the showrunners or the producers, you know, writers, directors, you know, executives, that there is a recognition now that this is a force to be reckoned with. And I do think the conversation around tapping into some of these lesser explored geographies within the gaming landscape are going to start to happen. And I know that just because even within our own portfolio, we have companies that are being approached by you know, traditional media companies that in years past they never would have been. And these are left of center eyps, you know that skew to a more exotic demographic, if you will, then just middle of the fair way, you know, kind of last of us look fallout as someone who played a you know, a fun role in helping to architect that that was a little more obvious to play with. I think some of the things you're going to see kind of round two, in Round three and years going forward are going to be some of these more quote unquote niche genres and sub genres whose audience is actually eclipse, you know, some of the more mainstream, you know, kind of testosterone injected ips that we continue to see adapted.

Lastly, let's touch upon the reverse of that. You know, if you look at a company like Warner Brothers Games, they're sort of the perfect example of the duality of getting Hollywood IP into the gaming space successfully and unsuccessfully. They had Hogwarts Legacy in twenty twenty three, success was the best selling game of the year. It beat Call of Duty, which typically only Rockstar games do that. Yeah, but then a year later, of course we get Suicide Squad killed. The Justice League lost about two hundred million on the gaming side of Warner Brothers and of course Warner Brothers Games has shut down three studios. What do you think is crucial to working with Hollywood IP, you know, tied around its own games in a way that doesn't you know, drag things out in a year's long process, and you know, scares Hollywood away from licensing games out.

Lastly, let's touch upon the reverse of that. You know, if you look at a company like Warner Brothers Games, they're sort of the perfect example of the duality of getting Hollywood IP into the gaming space successfully and unsuccessfully. They had Hogwarts Legacy in twenty twenty three, success was the best selling game of the year. It beat Call of Duty, which typically only Rockstar games do that. Yeah, but then a year later, of course we get Suicide Squad killed. The Justice League lost about two hundred million on the gaming side of Warner Brothers and of course Warner Brothers Games has shut down three studios. What do you think is crucial to working with Hollywood IP, you know, tied around its own games in a way that doesn't you know, drag things out in a year's long process, and you know, scares Hollywood away from licensing games out.

I think it's case by case. I think when you look at you know, Warner Discovery, there's a lot of debt there. The market is looking at that business through a very discipline lens. When you see the success of Hogwarts Legacy, that that game did eight hundred million in the first week of launch, and so regardless of what Suic's suicide squad was able to do, that division, if you will, was very much in the black. They've done an incredible job. What David hadad did there, you know, during his tenure, during his reign was absolutely amazing. Both some very very well thought out m and a over the years, a ton of endemic development amongst the internal studios that they had both grown and scaled, and then coupled to some of the acquisitions that they had made over the years. But so much of that corey early on came from the support that they had from corporate and you had guys like Jeff Pucus and Kevin Sujihara who really believed in the future of gaming and allowed for someone like David to build out a portfolio of games and put him on par with the other parts of that business, film and television and licensing and merchandise and whatnot. I think now the rigor with which Warner Discovery has to perform, you know, with that kind of overhang of debt and the way the market is scrutinizing them, that's just going to be a different look than you know, hopefully, when David Ellison and his team close on paramount. You know, David someone who cares greatly about games, and you know they have been vocal about that, and they have that d and they screamed that DNA. I think they're going to have a much different orientation towards gaming. They're going to have a longer runway to play with. I think the market will look at them them differently, So I don't think it's one size fits all. And I think if you look at Disney, for example, just look at the success of Disney Rivals, look at the success of I'm Sorry, Marvel Rivals and Marvel Snap. You know, these are both two incredible adaptations of the IP and much different form factors. You look at their recent investment one point five billion into Epic. You know, I think the times have changed. There was twenty five ish years where Disney was just licensing out. They were leaving billions of potential revenue on the table because they didn't want to take that risk. And you know, now I think you've got legacy media looking at the opportunity set of being able to engage with that that demographic, that end user, having a relationship there, capturing the majority of those economics. But I couldn't imagine being a steward of the IP that Disney owns, right, Disney, Proper, Pixar, Lucasfilm, you know, Fox, Marvel, and not just not only not capturing the line share of those economics, but also not having any of that data because you've licensed out to a third party. So I think that dynamic is changing significantly. And again I think that's going to in nerd of the benefit of the end user, of the gamer, of the consumer and so. But it's not a one size fits all, So it's tough for me. I at least can't paint the industry with a macro brush. Couldn't be more. Look as the guy who helped get John Wick in to Fortnite, you know, I had a blast doing that. I think it was one of the earlier and better adaptations or integrations, I should say, of a Hollywood ip quote unquote into a gaming universe. But we were really self aware at Lion Skate, like we knew we knew at that point in time what Fortnite brought to the table was a lot more valuable to us than what we were bringing to the table for them with John Wick, right, that that generated something like four hundred million hours of gameplay in the week leading up to the release of John Wick three for a studio the size Alliance Gate. You know, you couldn't buy that kind of marketing, like you just didn't have the budget to play. So I think these symbiotic relationships, you know, these mutually aligned interest models going forward, are going to be what you're going to see much more of versus this traditional licensee license or dynamic where somebody always felt like they were left holding the bag. And I think those days, honestly are gaune and you have folks that would love to, hey, let's put one plus one together and maybe we'll get five, six or seven out of it if we respect the brand equity, you know that Hubspoke model again at the kernel of this, and treat that audience with respect. You know, Let's not push a game out, you know, before it's ready for primetime. There's no need to do it. And I always reference back to Nintendo sixty four Golden Eye. People forget that game came out twenty months after the movie and it's still regarded as one of the best license ips in the history of licensed ip. And that was just Nintendo having the confidence to say this thing ain't going live until it's ready for primetime. Like the early days of Blizzard. You know, that was their mantra. We're not going to push it into the market until it's ready for primetime. So I think you're seeing aligned interests in a way we've never seen before, and I think that's going to be fantastic for the end user.

I think it's case by case. I think when you look at you know, Warner Discovery, there's a lot of debt there. The market is looking at that business through a very discipline lens. When you see the success of Hogwarts Legacy, that that game did eight hundred million in the first week of launch, and so regardless of what Suic's suicide squad was able to do, that division, if you will, was very much in the black. They've done an incredible job. What David hadad did there, you know, during his tenure, during his reign was absolutely amazing. Both some very very well thought out m and a over the years, a ton of endemic development amongst the internal studios that they had both grown and scaled, and then coupled to some of the acquisitions that they had made over the years. But so much of that corey early on came from the support that they had from corporate and you had guys like Jeff Pucus and Kevin Sujihara who really believed in the future of gaming and allowed for someone like David to build out a portfolio of games and put him on par with the other parts of that business, film and television and licensing and merchandise and whatnot. I think now the rigor with which Warner Discovery has to perform, you know, with that kind of overhang of debt and the way the market is scrutinizing them, that's just going to be a different look than you know, hopefully, when David Ellison and his team close on paramount. You know, David someone who cares greatly about games, and you know they have been vocal about that, and they have that d and they screamed that DNA. I think they're going to have a much different orientation towards gaming. They're going to have a longer runway to play with. I think the market will look at them them differently, So I don't think it's one size fits all. And I think if you look at Disney, for example, just look at the success of Disney Rivals, look at the success of I'm Sorry, Marvel Rivals and Marvel Snap. You know, these are both two incredible adaptations of the IP and much different form factors. You look at their recent investment one point five billion into Epic. You know, I think the times have changed. There was twenty five ish years where Disney was just licensing out. They were leaving billions of potential revenue on the table because they didn't want to take that risk. And you know, now I think you've got legacy media looking at the opportunity set of being able to engage with that that demographic, that end user, having a relationship there, capturing the majority of those economics. But I couldn't imagine being a steward of the IP that Disney owns, right, Disney, Proper, Pixar, Lucasfilm, you know, Fox, Marvel, and not just not only not capturing the line share of those economics, but also not having any of that data because you've licensed out to a third party. So I think that dynamic is changing significantly. And again I think that's going to in nerd of the benefit of the end user, of the gamer, of the consumer and so. But it's not a one size fits all, So it's tough for me. I at least can't paint the industry with a macro brush. Couldn't be more. Look as the guy who helped get John Wick in to Fortnite, you know, I had a blast doing that. I think it was one of the earlier and better adaptations or integrations, I should say, of a Hollywood ip quote unquote into a gaming universe. But we were really self aware at Lion Skate, like we knew we knew at that point in time what Fortnite brought to the table was a lot more valuable to us than what we were bringing to the table for them with John Wick, right, that that generated something like four hundred million hours of gameplay in the week leading up to the release of John Wick three for a studio the size Alliance Gate. You know, you couldn't buy that kind of marketing, like you just didn't have the budget to play. So I think these symbiotic relationships, you know, these mutually aligned interest models going forward, are going to be what you're going to see much more of versus this traditional licensee license or dynamic where somebody always felt like they were left holding the bag. And I think those days, honestly are gaune and you have folks that would love to, hey, let's put one plus one together and maybe we'll get five, six or seven out of it if we respect the brand equity, you know that Hubspoke model again at the kernel of this, and treat that audience with respect. You know, Let's not push a game out, you know, before it's ready for primetime. There's no need to do it. And I always reference back to Nintendo sixty four Golden Eye. People forget that game came out twenty months after the movie and it's still regarded as one of the best license ips in the history of licensed ip. And that was just Nintendo having the confidence to say this thing ain't going live until it's ready for primetime. Like the early days of Blizzard. You know, that was their mantra. We're not going to push it into the market until it's ready for primetime. So I think you're seeing aligned interests in a way we've never seen before, and I think that's going to be fantastic for the end user.

Well, thank you so much for joining Andy and I today, Peter, it's been great.

Well, thank you so much for joining Andy and I today, Peter, it's been great.

Thank you appreciate the time. Guys, thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.

Thank you appreciate the time. Guys, thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.