Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My guest is Dan McDermott, President of Entertainment for a MC and AMC Studios. Dan is an industry veteran. He was part of the early days of the Fox Network and the early days of dream Works as an executive. He also spent many years as a producer before joining AMC Networks. In all of that experience gives him great perspective on how the business of content development is changing. Ask anyone who's ever tried, It's really hard to make a good pilot, But now the art of TV seems to be in franchise management. A MC is at the outset of a huge swing in building a metaverse content around the works of beloved Southern Gothic novelist and Rice. The effort will start in the fall with the series rendition of one of her best known novels, Interview with a Vampire. McDermott here offers a case study on how programming executives are trying to think two steps and three series ahead these days, even at the pitch stage, he details the considerations that come up as his team works out a plan for shows stocked with characters worthy of spinoffs. He also contrasts the building phase on an RICE with the work they're doing now on The Walking Dead, which has been a filler of AMC's schedule since but is coming to an end later this year. On the other end of the spectrum, AMC is also putting energy into crafting lower budget shows for niche streaming services like Acorn TV, Sundance Now, and Shutter. It's an interesting look at how a boutique player with big brands is navigating a world of change. That's all coming up After the break, and we're back with Dan McDermott, President of AMC and AMC Studios. Dan McDermott, President of AMC Entertainment and AMC Studios, thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. It's good to see you. Yeah. I appreciate the chance to sit down and talk with you because Dan, I know you are just a died in the world creative executive. You have been doing this as an executive, as a programmer, as a producer for a long time, and I really wanted to get your perspective on how the business of development, the challenges of development are changing in this every in our ever changing media landscape, but in a world where people are truly thinking about franchises and meta verses and people are thinking about building. You know, multiple series is multiple extensions of all kind all of the content that you invest in. You know, right now, AMC, a big priority for you is building up a universe of of properties tied to a Rice, the books of Ann Rice, the famed author. AMC did a big deal with the Rice Estate and has wide broad rights to a lot of her books. So you do the deal, you have the I P You kind of have your sandbox. Where where do you start next? When you know you want to not just one great show, but many great shows? How do you start? That's a great question. Okay, So let me just start from the big picture. Okay. So we acquired eighteen books in the Vampire Chronicles cannon Um. They sold a hundred and fifty million copies worldwide. And I mentioned that just because it's great context for the reality that there's a there's a dedicated and passionate fan base. It's very familiar with the I P. Right, and that has a history in a relationship with it, right and very you know Anne Rice just her name evokes so much, you know, so very branded, very well branded. Yeah. Yeah, and the and these are folks that, you know, they care about the characters, they care about the stories, they care about the world. So first and foremost, we had to familiarize ourselves with all of it. I mean we had big picture, big picture understanding, but you know, there's there's dozens of characters that span you know, the story spent two thousand years. Um uh and uh, they touch every continent, you know, from ancient Rome to contemporary Paris, and you know the United States and New Orleans obviously in New York, et cetera. So we first just sort of familiar. We spent probably six months, six eight months, who you know, to familiarize ourselves with the content, really understand it. Um we didn't read all eighteen did not. I don't have that much time, but we have, Yeah, we had people we obviously have. We have teams of folks here that are dedicated to reading all the books and and you're rating, you know, and really encapsulating all the contents that it's digestible enough so that I can look at it say okay, here's you know, here's what we need to do. UM. And uh. The first thing we did was, you know, I turned to Mark Johnson, who's the producer that we have a long term relationship with, and said, a little show called Breaking Back exactly better called Saul. He did, you know, other shows for us, and he's been producing movies for years and he also was very involved in UM for Disney, the C. S. Lewis books, the Chronicles of Narnia, and he did all those movies. So you know, I turned him and I asked him to come in and come on board as the chief creative steward of all this from a producer, from a producer oil perspective, to work with us on it UM, which he, fortunately for us, agreed to do. UM. The second thing we did was we looked at all the I p you know, and said, uh, okay, we need to create three or four pillars, right, and pillars being three or four series that will be the pillars of this universe, the foundations of the house, you know. And and we chose interview with the Vampire because for the very obvious reasons, no surprise everybody. It's the most famous of her books. Probably there was a great movie, you know, a well known movie by you know that Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt were in Um that everybody knows. So that's probably one of her most, if not the most recognizable titles. And also has had two primary characters in Lestat and Louis Duponte Lack, who are sort of really well known characters in the and Rice universe. And that's the other sort of thing that's really important when from my perspective when you're building out a universe, is you have to have the you know, the really recognizable I p and then two characters who can really break through and break out. UM. And then the second the second book, uh, that we are in production on right now, UH is in the Mayfair, which is franchise, right, so I think she had three books. It's a Gothic historical, you know, fantasy romance story featuring UM the Mayfair Witches, which is a line of of which is uh divinely uh, I guess controlled inspired by Lasher, you know, who's a demon character wants to come into human form. Right. UM, we have Alexandre Dadario playing a lead in that that that first that the series, um uh playing Rowan Mayfair for her breakout in White Lotus exactly, you know, so another great character, uh starting a great actress that's really breaking out and having a moment right now. And then we have a couple other series and developments too soon to talk about that will be the sort of second, third, and fourth pillar in the sort of franchise that will get this universe up and on its feet. And if you consider that each of these shows will in a in a best case scenario or a positive case scenario, maybe not the best but we'll run four to sixceed, right, um, and we can get a couple of so I I envisioned us getting five to seven series over the next five or six years up on their feet, each one running four to six seasons with primary main characters, right, you know, significant lead characters featuring significant stars that will get our universe up and on its feet for the next five to ten years. Let's say, let's say let's call it a decade, right, and so that's phase one, right, and each of those will we stand alone stories? Can I ask you, are you thinking like one series a year. What's the what's the cadence of Uh? Probably well, the first two are gonna be you know, uh, I think Interviews Vampire was going to be coming out this fall, and make Fair, which is pretty soon after that. So that's that's that's quicker than just a year. But then the third series will probably be a year to fifteen sixteen months beyond that in the third and fourth series, so you know, not quite one a year, but um, you know, probably averaging out to that, I'd say, um and um. So once we do that, then the second thing that's really important for us to do is you have to develop supporting characters underneath those significant leads that can and this is a process of discovery. Some of these are in the books. Some of these might be new characters. Some of these might be characters that you know, have a small role in the books but have created, you know, an oversized impact in a series, but that can ultimately, after two or three seasons or four seasons, spin off and become the lead of their own series. Right and uh, and then you then you really start having fun because then you then you can start pulling characters from different shows. I do envision us five or six years down the road having an all star you know series, if you will, an Avengers style series where you know, we might have the stat and Rowan Mayfair and a lead of another series ultimately cross paths in a storyline that you know, that can that can play out over two or three years, you know, seasons, things like that. UM, so that's the beginning of it, you know, Uh, I mean is that a broad enough answered specific Let me ask you are when we say series, are we thinking like all traditional scripted TV series? Are there other platforms that you might see this playing out on well where we certainly have plans for supporting content in and around each of these series, whether it's digital series or podcast or you know, other iterations and things like that that we can we can take advantage of. UM, a little too early to talk specifically about them, but I think in today's world, in today's entertainment landscape, a series is just a primary you know, uh, spear on a you know, on on a larger apparatus that should be that can support that content across everything in the entertainment ecosystem. Of course, your first thing you got, you got a very classy project manager in Mark Johnson who also for listeners brought us Help Bring Us Rectify, which is also a gift to fans of good television. UM, so clearly great project manager. Is it hard with with the planning for multiple series and multiple characters? Of course, television is known as a writer's medium, that that you know, that's something that comes from a writer. Is it challenging to work in that way where you know you're going to have to work with multiple writers and multiple takes on this world? Is it challenging to make sure that you know that that what is developed is adaptable enough so that multiple, multiple visions, multiple writers can come in. Would that probably be kind of Marks job? Yes, that would be. I mean that it's something that Mark is definitely um responsible for keeping track of all the you know, the specific characters and through lines. Um. I will say that, you know totally we can we can afford to be a little bit varied, you know, and we not only can we afford to me we should be you know, there should be We shouldn't feel like every series has to be exactly you know the same, So you we want different expressions and different different creative people coming in with their own takes on you know, on on the various stories and characters. Do you have a fair amount of leeway with the estate. Of course, some authors can be very very restrictive about what you can do, but it sounds like you have you have some Yeah, this way, these are definitely our adaptations of the books, you know, and uh, you know into you know, none of them, none of these are going to be sort of to the letter, you know, adaptations of the books. We're definitely bringing them into different time periods and creating different expressions. Uh, it's very important to us to honor the spirit of all the characters and the stories and and Rice and everything that she's created. Um, but but we're definitely taking license where we feel like it dramatically. Is is important to do m interesting and again for you is this is this a challenge for you as a development exect to work in this way when we're developing just one particular series that might be a piece of original you know, an original idea of a writer. Um, you know, you're thinking fairly linearly, linearly about just we need to make sure that this show is is great, you know, and and really putting all of our time and energy into ensuring that that particular pilot or those you know X number of episodes are terrific. The the opportunity here, and what's really cool about what we have with all these books is we know we're building a universe, and so we're we're thinking across four or six or seven shows and twenty or thirty characters and five or six or seven years down the line. You know, we're trying not to get we we have a saying here, we don't want to get out over our skis. We don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Um, keep our eye on the ball and focus on the task at hand. But we're we're designing something that requires us to be thinking, you know, deeper and longer and further further on the horizon than in other scenarios. And Rice is a huge initiative, and and you've kind of started from a blank slate. You have been with AMC now going on about two and a half years. So you have come in now and you are also the manager that you know, the ultimate overseer of another hugely important, now long established franchise for the company, The Walking Dead. Can you talk about what it's like now to be coming into something that is well established but is also at a transitional point in its life and and something that has been you know, undeniably transformative for AMC Networks. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, The Walking Dead is the is the most successful series in the history of cable television, you know, and for a period of time was the most successful series on all of television. So, um, it's it's a thrill to be a part of UH. Just helping shape the sort of final season of that show, UM, and and really ensure that we land the plane with in the best possible way and really deliver UH and ending to the mothership show between the Walking Dead that will engage in and throw all the fans and really um be a great payoff for the years of investment and passionate enthusiasm, while at the same time working to extend and and build out from The Walking Dead into the universe right um, with new expressions of of UH series in the universe. So we have a show with Norman Rita's featuring the Darryl Dixon character that's going to take place in Europe that we're finalizing all the creative on right now. We've got a show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Lauren Cohen. That's going to take place on the island of Manhattan, which was left to the Walkers twelve years ago when they overran Manhattan and the government decided to blow all the bridges and tunnels and just leave the island to the Walkers. And and it's now twelve years later, there's a million walker herd that's sort of dominating the streets of Manhattan. And uh, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Lauren, you know, Maggie and Negan have to journey onto the island where the small civilian population that lives in Manhattan, UM lives above the tenth floor of all the buildings, and they zip line back and forth, you know, above the streets, and they have hydroponic farms, et cetera in there, and UM so and I say all that because it's it's illustrative of one of the tenants that we hold dear when we create shows out of an existing franchise, like The Walking Dead, which is UM we want to maintain the integrity of the universe, right and and ensure that we don't do anything that invalidates all the history and the lore of the universe. Uh. While at the same time, um iterating and evolving and delivering something new for the fan base. So that, um, you know, for us, when we look at The Walking Dad, we don't look at it as a horror show. We look at it as a show about humanity, right about. It's about ultimately at its core, it's about how do these characters maintain their humanity in the wake of a pandemic and you know, zombie apocalypse, when chaos and insanity is ruling the day, just like today. Yeah, I was just gonna, I was just gonna like, there's so many band jokes to be made here, but I'm not gonna. But yeah, but you know, but that is we look, you know, the show is really it's a it's a human drama about you know, connection and maintaining connection and when life like origins of vampire fiction itself. Yeah yeah. So anyway, So, um, one of the significant differences with The Walking Dead and and Um and the and Rice universe is we have just the original graphic novel that we're that is our source material here. So all the other iterations that we've done in the Walking To universe, whether it's Fear the Walking Dead or the Walking To the World Beyond or these two other shows um are original pieces, right, material that goes off of the but is not rooted in original books or exactly. Yeah so, and you know, so we really need to make sure we also have, by the way, Tales of the Walking Dead um which is standalone anthology stories set in the Walking Dead Universe, which is a much more UMU adventurous uh and experimental um venture where we tell stories that are all different kinds. You know, we're telling stories that have sort of science fiction elements to them or horror elements and things like that set in the you know, it's a little bit of like black Mirrors said, in the Walking Dead universe. In an anthology format, you could do so much, like you just see, you could do so much that would just just enliven the fans. You can imagine just taking like slices of beloved characters or moments. So I could say, that's what we hope, you know, I mean, and we hope that it's going to be really exciting for folks who love the who love the shows to think, like, oh my gosh, they're telling a story that's totally unique and different than you know, you can never tell in one of the others my other shows and don't draw the curtain. We'll be right back with more from Dan McDermott of AMC Networks. And we're back with more from AMC's Dan McDermott. As we talk franchises, I mean really Breaking Bad has become you know, AMC's has very creatively managed that property. I gotta give credit to Peter and Vince. Um, you know, I had to. I talked to them the other day because, as we know, the final six episodes launched this Monday, July eleven. Um, and it's it's a bitter sweet time. It's an exciting time and a bitter sweet time because um, they're so good and it's it really is such a you know, and and yet we were so sad to see the show go. But but when I was talking to them, I was asking them about did you did you have any idea when you created the Salt Goodman character and Breaking Bad that there was even And they said absolutely not. And what's what's great about them is they their process is so unique and and um, and they allow for a process of discovery, you know, like they like they just they could never have planned for Saul Goodman to to have his own show. But when Breaking Bad ended and they thought, you know, it was so great working with Bob and the way they explained it was like they thought, this character is so interesting. I wonder if we went back and really explored how he started as Jimmy McGill and became Saul Goodman and ultimately found his way to Walter White, you know, and that that was just it was just that little current that started for them, and thank god it did. You know, in your role here, you oversee a lot of You oversee a number of other channels, and you also oversee a number of growing niche streaming services. What is it like for you juggling everything from the expansive world of building an an Rice universe to programming for streamers that target but you know, Shutter targets a horror audience. Sundance now is a very kind of art Cso Terek some genre. What does that like to balance all of those, um, you know, kind of all those malvels that you need to feed. It's it's thrilling and and it's really instructive and insightful. I'll elaborate because on the one hand, yes, interview with the Vampire in the and Rice Universe is probably the biggest venture we've ever embarked upon at the you know, from from the from the ground up at at at a MC Networks, and yet working on shows for shutter U, which has to a passionate fan base and doesn't have nearly the budget of uh, just about anything. I mean, one of the one of the value propositions of those the target s FID services is we we produce content for them that anywhere between I think the average hour of content is five or six thousand dollars, you know, cautify and and yet the fan base is equally as enthusiastic and rabbit and and it's it's instructive and enlightening because it's a reminder that that quality content and great storytelling doesn't come with a price tag attached necessarily. Of course, there's big shows that all all platforms and networks do that that might cost you know, a lot of money, but that's no guarantee of success. It's no guarantee of engagement, UM, And a small budget is no guarantee of of you know, UM, A lack of engagement and enthusiasm on the part of your fan base and the what's interesting about Shutter and all I was talking about Acorn also, which is which is a wildly successful platform focuses on British drama, right yeah, British drama, with some Australia New Zealand as well. But um uh, these platforms are they don't go broad, but they go incredibly deep, you know, and get a lot of engagement. Yeah hours with you exactly. And if you like one show or movie on Shutter, you're gonna like another one. You're gonna like that, you know, You're gonna like Creepshow. You're gonna like Joe Bob Briggs. You're gonna like you know, the movies that we're commissioning in or acquiring same thing with with Acorn TV. If you like dog Leash, you're gonna like My Life Is Murder. You're gonna like the Chelsea Detectives. You're gonna like you know, um, a lot of the content we have on the platform, because um it really super serves those audiences that have a demonstrated enthusiasm for the content that they program. You must love being able to on on your streamers. You must love being able to see in real time what people are watching how long they watch when they come to it is that that's also got to be very eye opening. It's oh my goodness, it's so eye opening. I mean, the the amount of data you get in nearly real time is so much more valuable than a Nielsen rating, you know, with a you know, from four thousand houses in which they have you know, it's at top boxes. Um. And it's really instructive. And and to be able to see what people watch first on your platform, what they watch to completion, uh, and then what they watch after that is really instructive and you can you'll learn far more just following people's viewing patterns and viewing behavior than you will by putting them in a room showing them a couple episodes of television and giving them a free sandwich in twenty bucks and saying what do you think? Yeah? Yeah, you know. We we talk a lot about what what is our value proposition in the marketplace? How do we this this small company comparatively compete to the land of giants of Warner Brothers, Discoveries and Disneys and ship and paramount globals. How do we create a profile for ourselves that you know is bigger and more meaningful, you know, or as big as meaningful as we can be, uh in this landed giants. And we we always say, look, we're not competitive. We're not competing with any of those other streamers or complementary with them. It's not Netflix or a m C plus. It's Netflix and am C Plus. And why is that is because our value proposition is we aspire to be the best platform in the world at delivering premium marquee content for adults. Um, that's the only lane we swimming. You know. We don't do y A, we don't do kids, we don't do animation, sports news, all that sort of stuff. We just want to do premium, you know, we just want to live in the world of premium markets content for adults. And if we can be great at that, you know, it's the it's the analogy of we're not a big box store. We're your favorite boutique, whether it's Can, it can be Gucci, it can be Nike, it can be Lulu, Lemon, whatever. But you know, those those those stores, those those places that they don't do everything, but what they do do they do exceptionally well. And that's how that's how we view ourselves. And uh, and if we continue to do that, will continue to as you say, punch outside, you know, outside our weight class and occupy a space in the cultural landscape. That's that's genuinely meaningful and significant and stand for something, you know, I mean, that's what that's how we look at how we how we source content, how we develop it, how we produce it. M hm. Do you find I mean there's so much competition, there is so much it's an arms race of costs. COVID has added up. You know, there's the fifteen COVID tax just in what it costs you in in um masks and everything. How I mean, do you see any any moderating of that. We're hearing a little bit about people pulling back a little or do you see that is that that's been spiraling for about a year. Do you see any any slowdown? I think people are talking about it, you know, we're we're reading articles about it, and and you know, so it's definitely on on folks minds. Um uh, you know. I I believe that part of the problem for some of the bigger, bigger streaming organizations is that they don't really stand for anything other than we have a ton of stuff, you know, and and that you know, when you talk about value propositions in the marketplace, that is valuable. Sure, you know for a lot of folks who maybe have multiple generations and you know, in their household and they want to be able to you know, um, but uh, you can't beat standing for quality, you know, which is what which is the pillar that is the most important one for us, you know, And we also talk about uh, you know, as I said, our mission statement, you know, which is very important to us and and you know is that we aspire to be recognized as the best platform in the world for the premium market contemp for adults. We have a real operational philosophy, which is that there are three primary components to a great A MC show. One is uh iconic breakout characters that are sort of lightning in a bottle, you know, that become part of the breakout and become a part of the cultural conversation. Um, you know, Don Draper, Rick Grimes, Walter White, Villanelle Eve. I mean these are characters that you just mentioned their name and you know exactly what show they're a part of. You can put them on a billboard without anything else, and everybody say, oh, that's madman, that's killing eve that you know. Um. The second component is that they usher the audience into unique worlds or subcultures that we either haven't seen before or haven't seen featured in this particular way. You know, in nineteen sixties, Madison Avenue ad firm at the dawn of the feminist movement, the civil rights movement, the beginning of the end of the unchecked dominant or the unchecked dominance of the white male patriarchy, you know, right, and and really and and by putting that show on the air in two thousand eight or nine, we were able to take a very clear look back at a moment in time and you evaluate, like, how how far have we or have we not come today? You know, I mean it did the what period is supposed to do, which has put a lens on today by looking at yeah, yeah, right. And and then the third component that's really important to us as are we want to show us to entertain and engage, of course, but as importantly we want them to say something about the world we live in. We want them to shine a light on our collective humanity, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Uh and and we don't think that's pretentious. We think that's actually a grounding, uh elevating touchstone that really makes these shows relevant, you know, whether even you know, whether it's Killing Eve or as I said, you know earlier about with the Walking Dad or Breaking Bad or mad Men, you know, and you'll see that in interviews the Vampire in Mayfair, which is in moon Haven, which you know just launched yesterday, or Dark Dark Wins, I know is a big priority for you. Yeah, that's a world that is you know, we have not definitely not seen as much of. Yeah, and it's why I know it's it's it's why we talked a lot about making sure it's authentic. You know, it doesn't work if it's not authentic, you know, let mean, if if it's a uh, you know, a sort of water down version of what we think a Navajo reservation is, like written from Manhattan. Yeah, exactly, Dan, Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I appreciate you letting me kind of twenty questions with a really veteran, veteran development person. Let me let me close by asking you this one. What would you say from all it, from the experiences in your career, what would you say, is the best experience that you've had in the past that set you up for where you are now? What what allowed you to kind of get to the place you are now. I'll give you two Okay, So, uh my, it was my second job in the business, but it was my first sort of like right in the middle of the series television business. Started working at the Fox Network when we were on the year two nights a week, and it was get you to the company maybe, and I got to I was it was my I was a really young person, and I got to be in a lot of meetings with Barry Diller and Peter Chernon and Ruper Murdoch. And it was a time when Brandon tartakof famously called the company a coat hanger network and said it would never succeed, and he got mad when they moved the sixth Thursday. But we really believed that we had we had something, and we had a mission and and it was informed by this notion of we will only do a show that nobody else would do if any other network would do it. We went to any that came to Simpsons and in Living Color and uh you know, Married with Children and uh nine O two and O and Melos placing Party of Five and X Files. I mean it's a it's yeah, it's a Murders one of great shows. And so that was really that sort of entrepreneurial spirit has stuck with me throughout my career, and I think we have to constantly be thinking, be leaning forward and leaning into new ideas and new thought, new talent and you know, etcetera, etcetera. So that was one thing. Secondly, we're pretty formative experience to the right place, right time, right yeah. And and the second thing was working for Stevensfield Oregon and Jeffrey Catzenberg and you know, David was you know, to a less. I had less contact with David, but and and just the two of them were absolutely obsessed with telling great stories. And you know, we we can get we can all get distracted by a big name, you know, a big a list writer or a piece of talent. But at the end of the day, we're storytellers and we have to just tell great stories. And that has to be that has to be the thing that is the first, you know, the first thing we think about when we get up in the morning, and the last thing we think about when we go to sleep, and are we telling great stories? Why are we telling this story? Whose story is it? How does it meaningful? What is it? Matt? Why does it matter? You know? And are we doing the best job we can telling it? You know. Jeffrey obviously an animation and and working you know, I got to work for him in the TV company. Amazing guy, you know, and so I really bring have brought those those two just sort of a calumn experiences are just you know, environments have informed everything I've done, you know, for the rest of my career. Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts. We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and subscribe to the free Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.

Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcasts featuring conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My guest is Dan McDermott, President of Entertainment for a MC and AMC Studios. Dan is an industry veteran. He was part of the early days of the Fox Network and the early days of dream Works as an executive. He also spent many years as a producer before joining AMC Networks. In all of that experience gives him great perspective on how the business of content development is changing. Ask anyone who's ever tried, It's really hard to make a good pilot, But now the art of TV seems to be in franchise management. A MC is at the outset of a huge swing in building a metaverse content around the works of beloved Southern Gothic novelist and Rice. The effort will start in the fall with the series rendition of one of her best known novels, Interview with a Vampire. McDermott here offers a case study on how programming executives are trying to think two steps and three series ahead these days, even at the pitch stage, he details the considerations that come up as his team works out a plan for shows stocked with characters worthy of spinoffs. He also contrasts the building phase on an RICE with the work they're doing now on The Walking Dead, which has been a filler of AMC's schedule since but is coming to an end later this year. On the other end of the spectrum, AMC is also putting energy into crafting lower budget shows for niche streaming services like Acorn TV, Sundance Now, and Shutter. It's an interesting look at how a boutique player with big brands is navigating a world of change. That's all coming up After the break, and we're back with Dan McDermott, President of AMC and AMC Studios. Dan McDermott, President of AMC Entertainment and AMC Studios, thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. It's good to see you. Yeah. I appreciate the chance to sit down and talk with you because Dan, I know you are just a died in the world creative executive. You have been doing this as an executive, as a programmer, as a producer for a long time, and I really wanted to get your perspective on how the business of development, the challenges of development are changing in this every in our ever changing media landscape, but in a world where people are truly thinking about franchises and meta verses and people are thinking about building. You know, multiple series is multiple extensions of all kind all of the content that you invest in. You know, right now, AMC, a big priority for you is building up a universe of of properties tied to a Rice, the books of Ann Rice, the famed author. AMC did a big deal with the Rice Estate and has wide broad rights to a lot of her books. So you do the deal, you have the I P You kind of have your sandbox. Where where do you start next? When you know you want to not just one great show, but many great shows? How do you start? That's a great question. Okay, So let me just start from the big picture. Okay. So we acquired eighteen books in the Vampire Chronicles cannon Um. They sold a hundred and fifty million copies worldwide. And I mentioned that just because it's great context for the reality that there's a there's a dedicated and passionate fan base. It's very familiar with the I P. Right, and that has a history in a relationship with it, right and very you know Anne Rice just her name evokes so much, you know, so very branded, very well branded. Yeah. Yeah, and the and these are folks that, you know, they care about the characters, they care about the stories, they care about the world. So first and foremost, we had to familiarize ourselves with all of it. I mean we had big picture, big picture understanding, but you know, there's there's dozens of characters that span you know, the story spent two thousand years. Um uh and uh, they touch every continent, you know, from ancient Rome to contemporary Paris, and you know the United States and New Orleans obviously in New York, et cetera. So we first just sort of familiar. We spent probably six months, six eight months, who you know, to familiarize ourselves with the content, really understand it. Um we didn't read all eighteen did not. I don't have that much time, but we have, Yeah, we had people we obviously have. We have teams of folks here that are dedicated to reading all the books and and you're rating, you know, and really encapsulating all the contents that it's digestible enough so that I can look at it say okay, here's you know, here's what we need to do. UM. And uh. The first thing we did was, you know, I turned to Mark Johnson, who's the producer that we have a long term relationship with, and said, a little show called Breaking Back exactly better called Saul. He did, you know, other shows for us, and he's been producing movies for years and he also was very involved in UM for Disney, the C. S. Lewis books, the Chronicles of Narnia, and he did all those movies. So you know, I turned him and I asked him to come in and come on board as the chief creative steward of all this from a producer, from a producer oil perspective, to work with us on it UM, which he, fortunately for us, agreed to do. UM. The second thing we did was we looked at all the I p you know, and said, uh, okay, we need to create three or four pillars, right, and pillars being three or four series that will be the pillars of this universe, the foundations of the house, you know. And and we chose interview with the Vampire because for the very obvious reasons, no surprise everybody. It's the most famous of her books. Probably there was a great movie, you know, a well known movie by you know that Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt were in Um that everybody knows. So that's probably one of her most, if not the most recognizable titles. And also has had two primary characters in Lestat and Louis Duponte Lack, who are sort of really well known characters in the and Rice universe. And that's the other sort of thing that's really important when from my perspective when you're building out a universe, is you have to have the you know, the really recognizable I p and then two characters who can really break through and break out. UM. And then the second the second book, uh, that we are in production on right now, UH is in the Mayfair, which is franchise, right, so I think she had three books. It's a Gothic historical, you know, fantasy romance story featuring UM the Mayfair Witches, which is a line of of which is uh divinely uh, I guess controlled inspired by Lasher, you know, who's a demon character wants to come into human form. Right. UM, we have Alexandre Dadario playing a lead in that that that first that the series, um uh playing Rowan Mayfair for her breakout in White Lotus exactly, you know, so another great character, uh starting a great actress that's really breaking out and having a moment right now. And then we have a couple other series and developments too soon to talk about that will be the sort of second, third, and fourth pillar in the sort of franchise that will get this universe up and on its feet. And if you consider that each of these shows will in a in a best case scenario or a positive case scenario, maybe not the best but we'll run four to sixceed, right, um, and we can get a couple of so I I envisioned us getting five to seven series over the next five or six years up on their feet, each one running four to six seasons with primary main characters, right, you know, significant lead characters featuring significant stars that will get our universe up and on its feet for the next five to ten years. Let's say, let's say let's call it a decade, right, and so that's phase one, right, and each of those will we stand alone stories? Can I ask you, are you thinking like one series a year. What's the what's the cadence of Uh? Probably well, the first two are gonna be you know, uh, I think Interviews Vampire was going to be coming out this fall, and make Fair, which is pretty soon after that. So that's that's that's quicker than just a year. But then the third series will probably be a year to fifteen sixteen months beyond that in the third and fourth series, so you know, not quite one a year, but um, you know, probably averaging out to that, I'd say, um and um. So once we do that, then the second thing that's really important for us to do is you have to develop supporting characters underneath those significant leads that can and this is a process of discovery. Some of these are in the books. Some of these might be new characters. Some of these might be characters that you know, have a small role in the books but have created, you know, an oversized impact in a series, but that can ultimately, after two or three seasons or four seasons, spin off and become the lead of their own series. Right and uh, and then you then you really start having fun because then you then you can start pulling characters from different shows. I do envision us five or six years down the road having an all star you know series, if you will, an Avengers style series where you know, we might have the stat and Rowan Mayfair and a lead of another series ultimately cross paths in a storyline that you know, that can that can play out over two or three years, you know, seasons, things like that. UM, so that's the beginning of it, you know, Uh, I mean is that a broad enough answered specific Let me ask you are when we say series, are we thinking like all traditional scripted TV series? Are there other platforms that you might see this playing out on well where we certainly have plans for supporting content in and around each of these series, whether it's digital series or podcast or you know, other iterations and things like that that we can we can take advantage of. UM, a little too early to talk specifically about them, but I think in today's world, in today's entertainment landscape, a series is just a primary you know, uh, spear on a you know, on on a larger apparatus that should be that can support that content across everything in the entertainment ecosystem. Of course, your first thing you got, you got a very classy project manager in Mark Johnson who also for listeners brought us Help Bring Us Rectify, which is also a gift to fans of good television. UM, so clearly great project manager. Is it hard with with the planning for multiple series and multiple characters? Of course, television is known as a writer's medium, that that you know, that's something that comes from a writer. Is it challenging to work in that way where you know you're going to have to work with multiple writers and multiple takes on this world? Is it challenging to make sure that you know that that what is developed is adaptable enough so that multiple, multiple visions, multiple writers can come in. Would that probably be kind of Marks job? Yes, that would be. I mean that it's something that Mark is definitely um responsible for keeping track of all the you know, the specific characters and through lines. Um. I will say that, you know totally we can we can afford to be a little bit varied, you know, and we not only can we afford to me we should be you know, there should be We shouldn't feel like every series has to be exactly you know the same, So you we want different expressions and different different creative people coming in with their own takes on you know, on on the various stories and characters. Do you have a fair amount of leeway with the estate. Of course, some authors can be very very restrictive about what you can do, but it sounds like you have you have some Yeah, this way, these are definitely our adaptations of the books, you know, and uh, you know into you know, none of them, none of these are going to be sort of to the letter, you know, adaptations of the books. We're definitely bringing them into different time periods and creating different expressions. Uh, it's very important to us to honor the spirit of all the characters and the stories and and Rice and everything that she's created. Um, but but we're definitely taking license where we feel like it dramatically. Is is important to do m interesting and again for you is this is this a challenge for you as a development exect to work in this way when we're developing just one particular series that might be a piece of original you know, an original idea of a writer. Um, you know, you're thinking fairly linearly, linearly about just we need to make sure that this show is is great, you know, and and really putting all of our time and energy into ensuring that that particular pilot or those you know X number of episodes are terrific. The the opportunity here, and what's really cool about what we have with all these books is we know we're building a universe, and so we're we're thinking across four or six or seven shows and twenty or thirty characters and five or six or seven years down the line. You know, we're trying not to get we we have a saying here, we don't want to get out over our skis. We don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Um, keep our eye on the ball and focus on the task at hand. But we're we're designing something that requires us to be thinking, you know, deeper and longer and further further on the horizon than in other scenarios. And Rice is a huge initiative, and and you've kind of started from a blank slate. You have been with AMC now going on about two and a half years. So you have come in now and you are also the manager that you know, the ultimate overseer of another hugely important, now long established franchise for the company, The Walking Dead. Can you talk about what it's like now to be coming into something that is well established but is also at a transitional point in its life and and something that has been you know, undeniably transformative for AMC Networks. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, The Walking Dead is the is the most successful series in the history of cable television, you know, and for a period of time was the most successful series on all of television. So, um, it's it's a thrill to be a part of UH. Just helping shape the sort of final season of that show, UM, and and really ensure that we land the plane with in the best possible way and really deliver UH and ending to the mothership show between the Walking Dead that will engage in and throw all the fans and really um be a great payoff for the years of investment and passionate enthusiasm, while at the same time working to extend and and build out from The Walking Dead into the universe right um, with new expressions of of UH series in the universe. So we have a show with Norman Rita's featuring the Darryl Dixon character that's going to take place in Europe that we're finalizing all the creative on right now. We've got a show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Lauren Cohen. That's going to take place on the island of Manhattan, which was left to the Walkers twelve years ago when they overran Manhattan and the government decided to blow all the bridges and tunnels and just leave the island to the Walkers. And and it's now twelve years later, there's a million walker herd that's sort of dominating the streets of Manhattan. And uh, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Lauren, you know, Maggie and Negan have to journey onto the island where the small civilian population that lives in Manhattan, UM lives above the tenth floor of all the buildings, and they zip line back and forth, you know, above the streets, and they have hydroponic farms, et cetera in there, and UM so and I say all that because it's it's illustrative of one of the tenants that we hold dear when we create shows out of an existing franchise, like The Walking Dead, which is UM we want to maintain the integrity of the universe, right and and ensure that we don't do anything that invalidates all the history and the lore of the universe. Uh. While at the same time, um iterating and evolving and delivering something new for the fan base. So that, um, you know, for us, when we look at The Walking Dad, we don't look at it as a horror show. We look at it as a show about humanity, right about. It's about ultimately at its core, it's about how do these characters maintain their humanity in the wake of a pandemic and you know, zombie apocalypse, when chaos and insanity is ruling the day, just like today. Yeah, I was just gonna, I was just gonna like, there's so many band jokes to be made here, but I'm not gonna. But yeah, but you know, but that is we look, you know, the show is really it's a it's a human drama about you know, connection and maintaining connection and when life like origins of vampire fiction itself. Yeah yeah. So anyway, So, um, one of the significant differences with The Walking Dead and and Um and the and Rice universe is we have just the original graphic novel that we're that is our source material here. So all the other iterations that we've done in the Walking To universe, whether it's Fear the Walking Dead or the Walking To the World Beyond or these two other shows um are original pieces, right, material that goes off of the but is not rooted in original books or exactly. Yeah so, and you know, so we really need to make sure we also have, by the way, Tales of the Walking Dead um which is standalone anthology stories set in the Walking Dead Universe, which is a much more UMU adventurous uh and experimental um venture where we tell stories that are all different kinds. You know, we're telling stories that have sort of science fiction elements to them or horror elements and things like that set in the you know, it's a little bit of like black Mirrors said, in the Walking Dead universe. In an anthology format, you could do so much, like you just see, you could do so much that would just just enliven the fans. You can imagine just taking like slices of beloved characters or moments. So I could say, that's what we hope, you know, I mean, and we hope that it's going to be really exciting for folks who love the who love the shows to think, like, oh my gosh, they're telling a story that's totally unique and different than you know, you can never tell in one of the others my other shows and don't draw the curtain. We'll be right back with more from Dan McDermott of AMC Networks. And we're back with more from AMC's Dan McDermott. As we talk franchises, I mean really Breaking Bad has become you know, AMC's has very creatively managed that property. I gotta give credit to Peter and Vince. Um, you know, I had to. I talked to them the other day because, as we know, the final six episodes launched this Monday, July eleven. Um, and it's it's a bitter sweet time. It's an exciting time and a bitter sweet time because um, they're so good and it's it really is such a you know, and and yet we were so sad to see the show go. But but when I was talking to them, I was asking them about did you did you have any idea when you created the Salt Goodman character and Breaking Bad that there was even And they said absolutely not. And what's what's great about them is they their process is so unique and and um, and they allow for a process of discovery, you know, like they like they just they could never have planned for Saul Goodman to to have his own show. But when Breaking Bad ended and they thought, you know, it was so great working with Bob and the way they explained it was like they thought, this character is so interesting. I wonder if we went back and really explored how he started as Jimmy McGill and became Saul Goodman and ultimately found his way to Walter White, you know, and that that was just it was just that little current that started for them, and thank god it did. You know, in your role here, you oversee a lot of You oversee a number of other channels, and you also oversee a number of growing niche streaming services. What is it like for you juggling everything from the expansive world of building an an Rice universe to programming for streamers that target but you know, Shutter targets a horror audience. Sundance now is a very kind of art Cso Terek some genre. What does that like to balance all of those, um, you know, kind of all those malvels that you need to feed. It's it's thrilling and and it's really instructive and insightful. I'll elaborate because on the one hand, yes, interview with the Vampire in the and Rice Universe is probably the biggest venture we've ever embarked upon at the you know, from from the from the ground up at at at a MC Networks, and yet working on shows for shutter U, which has to a passionate fan base and doesn't have nearly the budget of uh, just about anything. I mean, one of the one of the value propositions of those the target s FID services is we we produce content for them that anywhere between I think the average hour of content is five or six thousand dollars, you know, cautify and and yet the fan base is equally as enthusiastic and rabbit and and it's it's instructive and enlightening because it's a reminder that that quality content and great storytelling doesn't come with a price tag attached necessarily. Of course, there's big shows that all all platforms and networks do that that might cost you know, a lot of money, but that's no guarantee of success. It's no guarantee of engagement, UM, And a small budget is no guarantee of of you know, UM, A lack of engagement and enthusiasm on the part of your fan base and the what's interesting about Shutter and all I was talking about Acorn also, which is which is a wildly successful platform focuses on British drama, right yeah, British drama, with some Australia New Zealand as well. But um uh, these platforms are they don't go broad, but they go incredibly deep, you know, and get a lot of engagement. Yeah hours with you exactly. And if you like one show or movie on Shutter, you're gonna like another one. You're gonna like that, you know, You're gonna like Creepshow. You're gonna like Joe Bob Briggs. You're gonna like you know, the movies that we're commissioning in or acquiring same thing with with Acorn TV. If you like dog Leash, you're gonna like My Life Is Murder. You're gonna like the Chelsea Detectives. You're gonna like you know, um, a lot of the content we have on the platform, because um it really super serves those audiences that have a demonstrated enthusiasm for the content that they program. You must love being able to on on your streamers. You must love being able to see in real time what people are watching how long they watch when they come to it is that that's also got to be very eye opening. It's oh my goodness, it's so eye opening. I mean, the the amount of data you get in nearly real time is so much more valuable than a Nielsen rating, you know, with a you know, from four thousand houses in which they have you know, it's at top boxes. Um. And it's really instructive. And and to be able to see what people watch first on your platform, what they watch to completion, uh, and then what they watch after that is really instructive and you can you'll learn far more just following people's viewing patterns and viewing behavior than you will by putting them in a room showing them a couple episodes of television and giving them a free sandwich in twenty bucks and saying what do you think? Yeah? Yeah, you know. We we talk a lot about what what is our value proposition in the marketplace? How do we this this small company comparatively compete to the land of giants of Warner Brothers, Discoveries and Disneys and ship and paramount globals. How do we create a profile for ourselves that you know is bigger and more meaningful, you know, or as big as meaningful as we can be, uh in this landed giants. And we we always say, look, we're not competitive. We're not competing with any of those other streamers or complementary with them. It's not Netflix or a m C plus. It's Netflix and am C Plus. And why is that is because our value proposition is we aspire to be the best platform in the world at delivering premium marquee content for adults. Um, that's the only lane we swimming. You know. We don't do y A, we don't do kids, we don't do animation, sports news, all that sort of stuff. We just want to do premium, you know, we just want to live in the world of premium markets content for adults. And if we can be great at that, you know, it's the it's the analogy of we're not a big box store. We're your favorite boutique, whether it's Can, it can be Gucci, it can be Nike, it can be Lulu, Lemon, whatever. But you know, those those those stores, those those places that they don't do everything, but what they do do they do exceptionally well. And that's how that's how we view ourselves. And uh, and if we continue to do that, will continue to as you say, punch outside, you know, outside our weight class and occupy a space in the cultural landscape. That's that's genuinely meaningful and significant and stand for something, you know, I mean, that's what that's how we look at how we how we source content, how we develop it, how we produce it. M hm. Do you find I mean there's so much competition, there is so much it's an arms race of costs. COVID has added up. You know, there's the fifteen COVID tax just in what it costs you in in um masks and everything. How I mean, do you see any any moderating of that. We're hearing a little bit about people pulling back a little or do you see that is that that's been spiraling for about a year. Do you see any any slowdown? I think people are talking about it, you know, we're we're reading articles about it, and and you know, so it's definitely on on folks minds. Um uh, you know. I I believe that part of the problem for some of the bigger, bigger streaming organizations is that they don't really stand for anything other than we have a ton of stuff, you know, and and that you know, when you talk about value propositions in the marketplace, that is valuable. Sure, you know for a lot of folks who maybe have multiple generations and you know, in their household and they want to be able to you know, um, but uh, you can't beat standing for quality, you know, which is what which is the pillar that is the most important one for us, you know, And we also talk about uh, you know, as I said, our mission statement, you know, which is very important to us and and you know is that we aspire to be recognized as the best platform in the world for the premium market contemp for adults. We have a real operational philosophy, which is that there are three primary components to a great A MC show. One is uh iconic breakout characters that are sort of lightning in a bottle, you know, that become part of the breakout and become a part of the cultural conversation. Um, you know, Don Draper, Rick Grimes, Walter White, Villanelle Eve. I mean these are characters that you just mentioned their name and you know exactly what show they're a part of. You can put them on a billboard without anything else, and everybody say, oh, that's madman, that's killing eve that you know. Um. The second component is that they usher the audience into unique worlds or subcultures that we either haven't seen before or haven't seen featured in this particular way. You know, in nineteen sixties, Madison Avenue ad firm at the dawn of the feminist movement, the civil rights movement, the beginning of the end of the unchecked dominant or the unchecked dominance of the white male patriarchy, you know, right, and and really and and by putting that show on the air in two thousand eight or nine, we were able to take a very clear look back at a moment in time and you evaluate, like, how how far have we or have we not come today? You know, I mean it did the what period is supposed to do, which has put a lens on today by looking at yeah, yeah, right. And and then the third component that's really important to us as are we want to show us to entertain and engage, of course, but as importantly we want them to say something about the world we live in. We want them to shine a light on our collective humanity, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Uh and and we don't think that's pretentious. We think that's actually a grounding, uh elevating touchstone that really makes these shows relevant, you know, whether even you know, whether it's Killing Eve or as I said, you know earlier about with the Walking Dad or Breaking Bad or mad Men, you know, and you'll see that in interviews the Vampire in Mayfair, which is in moon Haven, which you know just launched yesterday, or Dark Dark Wins, I know is a big priority for you. Yeah, that's a world that is you know, we have not definitely not seen as much of. Yeah, and it's why I know it's it's it's why we talked a lot about making sure it's authentic. You know, it doesn't work if it's not authentic, you know, let mean, if if it's a uh, you know, a sort of water down version of what we think a Navajo reservation is, like written from Manhattan. Yeah, exactly, Dan, Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I appreciate you letting me kind of twenty questions with a really veteran, veteran development person. Let me let me close by asking you this one. What would you say from all it, from the experiences in your career, what would you say, is the best experience that you've had in the past that set you up for where you are now? What what allowed you to kind of get to the place you are now. I'll give you two Okay, So, uh my, it was my second job in the business, but it was my first sort of like right in the middle of the series television business. Started working at the Fox Network when we were on the year two nights a week, and it was get you to the company maybe, and I got to I was it was my I was a really young person, and I got to be in a lot of meetings with Barry Diller and Peter Chernon and Ruper Murdoch. And it was a time when Brandon tartakof famously called the company a coat hanger network and said it would never succeed, and he got mad when they moved the sixth Thursday. But we really believed that we had we had something, and we had a mission and and it was informed by this notion of we will only do a show that nobody else would do if any other network would do it. We went to any that came to Simpsons and in Living Color and uh you know, Married with Children and uh nine O two and O and Melos placing Party of Five and X Files. I mean it's a it's yeah, it's a Murders one of great shows. And so that was really that sort of entrepreneurial spirit has stuck with me throughout my career, and I think we have to constantly be thinking, be leaning forward and leaning into new ideas and new thought, new talent and you know, etcetera, etcetera. So that was one thing. Secondly, we're pretty formative experience to the right place, right time, right yeah. And and the second thing was working for Stevensfield Oregon and Jeffrey Catzenberg and you know, David was you know, to a less. I had less contact with David, but and and just the two of them were absolutely obsessed with telling great stories. And you know, we we can get we can all get distracted by a big name, you know, a big a list writer or a piece of talent. But at the end of the day, we're storytellers and we have to just tell great stories. And that has to be that has to be the thing that is the first, you know, the first thing we think about when we get up in the morning, and the last thing we think about when we go to sleep, and are we telling great stories? Why are we telling this story? Whose story is it? How does it meaningful? What is it? Matt? Why does it matter? You know? And are we doing the best job we can telling it? You know. Jeffrey obviously an animation and and working you know, I got to work for him in the TV company. Amazing guy, you know, and so I really bring have brought those those two just sort of a calumn experiences are just you know, environments have informed everything I've done, you know, for the rest of my career. Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts. We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and subscribe to the free Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.