You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildegrave from News Talk ZEDB.

You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Darcy Wildegrave from News Talk ZEDB.

Greg Paul Took and listen to that interview. He is the New Zealand Heild rugby writer, one of a couple of them. He joins us now to take a look at what he heard. Good evening, Grigor.

Greg Paul Took and listen to that interview. He is the New Zealand Heild rugby writer, one of a couple of them. He joins us now to take a look at what he heard. Good evening, Grigor.

Good evening, Darcy.

Good evening, Darcy.

Interesting news today. But it looks like the two Robbos, or the Robert and the Robbo. It's Mark and of course Raizor Ray have They're on the same page now around what happens with extracting players out of overseas contracts and having them play back here in the All Blacks. This is something that Razor was absolutely hot on. Looks like they've mended their ways.

Interesting news today. But it looks like the two Robbos, or the Robert and the Robbo. It's Mark and of course Raizor Ray have They're on the same page now around what happens with extracting players out of overseas contracts and having them play back here in the All Blacks. This is something that Razor was absolutely hot on. Looks like they've mended their ways.

Yeah, it looks like it.

Yeah, it looks like it.

I'm not buying it to be Frank, I just don't believe that you have a coach in Raizer who spent five, six, seven years in super rugby looking at player trends, trying to pull onto his players at a Crusaders level. He then had what did he have you at about six month's noticed that he was going to be the Oldlecks coach. So you know he was appointed early he had six months building up to that where he gave a lot of thought about what the right eligibility model might look like, where market trends were going, you know, what players were looking at from the contract, and he was absolutely adamant that the current eligibility laws were not fit for purpose. And this was in November December last year. That he was still even more certain after coaching the Oblecks per year that they.

I'm not buying it to be Frank, I just don't believe that you have a coach in Raizer who spent five, six, seven years in super rugby looking at player trends, trying to pull onto his players at a Crusaders level. He then had what did he have you at about six month's noticed that he was going to be the Oldlecks coach. So you know he was appointed early he had six months building up to that where he gave a lot of thought about what the right eligibility model might look like, where market trends were going, you know, what players were looking at from the contract, and he was absolutely adamant that the current eligibility laws were not fit for purpose. And this was in November December last year. That he was still even more certain after coaching the Oblecks per year that they.

Were not right.

Were not right.

Now did the Rugby Union like the fact that their coach was publicly not aligned with their eligibility policy. Of course they didn't like that. So I suspect that what's happened to you is that Razor hasn't changed his mind at all. He's still very much of the view that the eligibility rules aren't quite right. But he has also realized that as the all black coach, he can't publicly fight with his employer. He needs to be publicly aligned support their policy. He can badger them, he can advocate behind the scenes as much as he likes. He can tell them I don't believe it. But when they ask him and they say, well, we need you to be publicly aligned and tell the media that you are, then he's going to have to do that because that is how you know, that's how employment works start. So we all have to accept that your employer has a hold on you to some degree.

Now did the Rugby Union like the fact that their coach was publicly not aligned with their eligibility policy. Of course they didn't like that. So I suspect that what's happened to you is that Razor hasn't changed his mind at all. He's still very much of the view that the eligibility rules aren't quite right. But he has also realized that as the all black coach, he can't publicly fight with his employer. He needs to be publicly aligned support their policy. He can badger them, he can advocate behind the scenes as much as he likes. He can tell them I don't believe it. But when they ask him and they say, well, we need you to be publicly aligned and tell the media that you are, then he's going to have to do that because that is how you know, that's how employment works start. So we all have to accept that your employer has a hold on you to some degree.

Well, I've had that situation myself. You've got to understand. See. Look, I'll agree with you because in my boss, but don't tell me how to think and I'll behind. And that's understandable. So could you say stage managed? These guys both put up front, both put up in a couple of good Rugby journalists for a Rugby direct to I suppose draw a line in the sands we are aligned, even though maybe they're not.

Well, I've had that situation myself. You've got to understand. See. Look, I'll agree with you because in my boss, but don't tell me how to think and I'll behind. And that's understandable. So could you say stage managed? These guys both put up front, both put up in a couple of good Rugby journalists for a Rugby direct to I suppose draw a line in the sands we are aligned, even though maybe they're not.

Yeah, a necessary PR function because because given what reason has said at the end of last year, given that the New Zealand Rugby board has changed in its entirety in early February, this issue would become If nothing was said, it would continue to fester, wouldn't The media like you and I would continue to puking prode and ask questions about what's HRAs we're thinking now? So I think a smart PR move by New Zealand Rugby to get Raiser to publicly align, try and kill the issue as a media topic, try and just put it to bed.

Yeah, a necessary PR function because because given what reason has said at the end of last year, given that the New Zealand Rugby board has changed in its entirety in early February, this issue would become If nothing was said, it would continue to fester, wouldn't The media like you and I would continue to puking prode and ask questions about what's HRAs we're thinking now? So I think a smart PR move by New Zealand Rugby to get Raiser to publicly align, try and kill the issue as a media topic, try and just put it to bed.

So as you know, France have come in in July.

So as you know, France have come in in July.

They don't want any kind of discussion around peripheral topics, around eligibility, so that's why they've done this.

They don't want any kind of discussion around peripheral topics, around eligibility, so that's why they've done this.

But this is leaked to the longer this has gone on, it's like the boy with the finger and the dike, and it's going to swallow them whole. But they also don't want to open a Pandora's box. So it's a very delicate balance they have. And if you think for a second the media are going to go away, well that's not going to happen, isn't it, Because we can not necessarily see the future. But things change, and they change in a hurry, and you've got to be cognizant of that.

But this is leaked to the longer this has gone on, it's like the boy with the finger and the dike, and it's going to swallow them whole. But they also don't want to open a Pandora's box. So it's a very delicate balance they have. And if you think for a second the media are going to go away, well that's not going to happen, isn't it, Because we can not necessarily see the future. But things change, and they change in a hurry, and you've got to be cognizant of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I guess people could argue that the player market trends haven't necessarily changed overly dramatic on the broad picture basis that there are there are more there is more money and more opportunity overseas for New Zealand's best players. The money they can earn overseas continues to be greater than the money they can earn here. That's never really changed from the first days of professionalism.

Well, I guess people could argue that the player market trends haven't necessarily changed overly dramatic on the broad picture basis that there are there are more there is more money and more opportunity overseas for New Zealand's best players. The money they can earn overseas continues to be greater than the money they can earn here. That's never really changed from the first days of professionalism.

But I think it's become a.

But I think it's become a.

Little bit more nuanced than that now because you know, Japan is the game changer in my view, because these guys are are offering at times quite significant amounts of money. We're talking sort of one million, two million dollar contracts. They're building a level of credibility in Japan in terms of the quality of the rugby. It's backed by massive corporations, so it's got a sustainable financial model. Toyota are going to continue to fund a rugby team forever because that's part of their corporate culture and their and their kind of code of conduct almost or their charter. Is what I'm trying to say is to pump money back into sport, to produce better people and to engage with the community. So it's all viable and there's a lot of people gravi as heating to Japan, and the power of that in three to four years time will be significantly more than it is not to your point, and the ability of Japanese clubs to lure New Zealand's best players over there, with the lifestyle, with the quality of rugby and the money on offer, it will be very difficult for New Zealand to stop more and more players from going there.

Little bit more nuanced than that now because you know, Japan is the game changer in my view, because these guys are are offering at times quite significant amounts of money. We're talking sort of one million, two million dollar contracts. They're building a level of credibility in Japan in terms of the quality of the rugby. It's backed by massive corporations, so it's got a sustainable financial model. Toyota are going to continue to fund a rugby team forever because that's part of their corporate culture and their and their kind of code of conduct almost or their charter. Is what I'm trying to say is to pump money back into sport, to produce better people and to engage with the community. So it's all viable and there's a lot of people gravi as heating to Japan, and the power of that in three to four years time will be significantly more than it is not to your point, and the ability of Japanese clubs to lure New Zealand's best players over there, with the lifestyle, with the quality of rugby and the money on offer, it will be very difficult for New Zealand to stop more and more players from going there.

But that's one New Zealand rugby. I suppose cozying art Worth Japanese rugby and how that actually works because it is going to happen, but their style of rugby, and I suppose the players when they come back the state they're in, it's not like they've been hammered by French Fords and anger irishmen when they're over there. It actually sits quite nicely within the remit of New Zealand rugby. This is the first hole, isn't it.

But that's one New Zealand rugby. I suppose cozying art Worth Japanese rugby and how that actually works because it is going to happen, but their style of rugby, and I suppose the players when they come back the state they're in, it's not like they've been hammered by French Fords and anger irishmen when they're over there. It actually sits quite nicely within the remit of New Zealand rugby. This is the first hole, isn't it.

Yeah, it does, and timing aligns as well.

Yeah, it does, and timing aligns as well.

So that's the other really important factor here is that the season, the Japanese season can currently with Super Rugby, which means that you're not asking guys to play round the clock the way that the South Africans currently are because they are a Southern Hemisphere country locked into Southern Hemisphere international program, but they are effectively a Northern Hemisphere nation in terms of the club competitions that they play in, which means their players are going round and round and round, they never get a break and they're going to blow up at some point. Japan is different because you can allow guys in New Zealand to go and play in Japan the season runs Dezember. To me, they can come home, they can rest and recover for a few weeks and they're good to go, match hard and match fit, ready to play in July. The question, and this is really at the heart of the whole issue, is does New Zealand Rugby feel that if you let a handful of guys go and play in Japan and keep them eligible for the Olblecks, will the Japanese system have kept them at a level in terms of their skills, their sharpness, you know, the game, understanding, the readiness to develop and improve. Will it be strong enough to do that or will it be too much of a step down? A lot of this is about control in that sense, a see, because New Zealand don't trust necessarily other countries to develop and look after their players in the same way that New Zealand thinks it can do well.

So that's the other really important factor here is that the season, the Japanese season can currently with Super Rugby, which means that you're not asking guys to play round the clock the way that the South Africans currently are because they are a Southern Hemisphere country locked into Southern Hemisphere international program, but they are effectively a Northern Hemisphere nation in terms of the club competitions that they play in, which means their players are going round and round and round, they never get a break and they're going to blow up at some point. Japan is different because you can allow guys in New Zealand to go and play in Japan the season runs Dezember. To me, they can come home, they can rest and recover for a few weeks and they're good to go, match hard and match fit, ready to play in July. The question, and this is really at the heart of the whole issue, is does New Zealand Rugby feel that if you let a handful of guys go and play in Japan and keep them eligible for the Olblecks, will the Japanese system have kept them at a level in terms of their skills, their sharpness, you know, the game, understanding, the readiness to develop and improve. Will it be strong enough to do that or will it be too much of a step down? A lot of this is about control in that sense, a see, because New Zealand don't trust necessarily other countries to develop and look after their players in the same way that New Zealand thinks it can do well.

That's why they've got to have that alignment. And as you talk to me off air about this, they've got coaches in Japan that do align with what New Zealand Rugby want and can hopefully lift those levels. So like see, you're Steve Hansen your Robbie Deans and so on and so forth. So they've got that connection or is that too much?

That's why they've got to have that alignment. And as you talk to me off air about this, they've got coaches in Japan that do align with what New Zealand Rugby want and can hopefully lift those levels. So like see, you're Steve Hansen your Robbie Deans and so on and so forth. So they've got that connection or is that too much?

Now?

Now?

Look, these guys have all coached at international level. They've all got relationships with New Zealand rugby and the people within New Zealand Rugby, Like Razor and Steve Hanson have known each other forever, so and Raiser and Todd Blackadder have known each other forever.

Look, these guys have all coached at international level. They've all got relationships with New Zealand rugby and the people within New Zealand Rugby, Like Razor and Steve Hanson have known each other forever, so and Raiser and Todd Blackadder have known each other forever.

He's another coature up there in Japan.

He's another coature up there in Japan.

So managing these relationships, you know, having Razor, if he's the All Blacks coach, go up to Japan, meet with these guys, watch a few games, talk to them, you know, get a sense of how players are tracking, trending. This is what happens everywhere else in the world. Yeah, this is what Razbie Rasmus has to do on a permanent basis because his players are all over the place. This is what Scotland have to do because their players are all over the place. You know. So it's not that difficult or uncommon for an international coach to be asked to monitor international club programs to see how his players are trending and tracking, you know. So theF we go down that quite easily. So I don't think it would be that difficult for New Zealand, and given the KEYWI influence in Japan, and the quality of coaching in Japan is actually probably in my view, perhaps higher at some clubs than it is at super rugby level in New Zealand. Then the arguments about oh, well, we're worried about the quality, We're worried about the exposure you know to you know, poorer training, poorer medical staff, or the kind of peripheral elements that go into high performance package. My understanding is that Japan is world class in many of those facets, so some of these fears are not real anymore.

So managing these relationships, you know, having Razor, if he's the All Blacks coach, go up to Japan, meet with these guys, watch a few games, talk to them, you know, get a sense of how players are tracking, trending. This is what happens everywhere else in the world. Yeah, this is what Razbie Rasmus has to do on a permanent basis because his players are all over the place. This is what Scotland have to do because their players are all over the place. You know. So it's not that difficult or uncommon for an international coach to be asked to monitor international club programs to see how his players are trending and tracking, you know. So theF we go down that quite easily. So I don't think it would be that difficult for New Zealand, and given the KEYWI influence in Japan, and the quality of coaching in Japan is actually probably in my view, perhaps higher at some clubs than it is at super rugby level in New Zealand. Then the arguments about oh, well, we're worried about the quality, We're worried about the exposure you know to you know, poorer training, poorer medical staff, or the kind of peripheral elements that go into high performance package. My understanding is that Japan is world class in many of those facets, so some of these fears are not real anymore.

What happens with the stretch the rubber band, if you will, around the seventy test cap mark. That looks like that's a standard for players when they can negotiate that time off, if you will, with a four year contract with the Japanese that stretch further as have come down to sixty, they have different laws, different rules maybe dealing with Japanese clubs as opposed to overseas clubs in the Northern Hemisphere and Europe, in order to keep that control.

What happens with the stretch the rubber band, if you will, around the seventy test cap mark. That looks like that's a standard for players when they can negotiate that time off, if you will, with a four year contract with the Japanese that stretch further as have come down to sixty, they have different laws, different rules maybe dealing with Japanese clubs as opposed to overseas clubs in the Northern Hemisphere and Europe, in order to keep that control.

Yeah, it's a good question.

Yeah, it's a good question.

I mean, I'd answer it like this and say that New Zealand Rugby argues, well, let me answer your questions first. I'm not a fan of that seventy test match scenario because quite often it leads to special circumstances coming up because they haven't rigidly stuck to that. Jorddy Barrett doesn't have seventy test caps, by the way, from memory, and he's in Ireland. Patrick Tupeloso didn't have any when he signed and got sabbatical deal to go to Japan. Richie Muwanga, for example, if they could have got to him and said, hey, mat what about you do two years in Japan, we'll call you know, will allow you to be eligible in between seasons and then eligible when you come back home, they would have access to him right now, and you can say, well, that's not part of their eligibility policy. But they've always been willing to make exemptions and exceptions depending on circumstance. Which is why I don't really like about the rule is because it ultimately feels that they will override it on any given occasion if they feel a player is worth it, and that's sets I feel a really bad precedent and a bad example because The whole reason they don't want you guys to be eligible full time from over sees is they're talking about the integrity of Pathway. They want to encourage people to stay. They want they want that to be authentic. The way that they set the whole program up. Everybody kind of knows that if you you know, if you make a strong enough argument, and if circumstances favor you, like there's no other number turning around, and you start saying, hey, I might disappear and go offshore as well as a bit of leverage, they will probably bend and buckle and give you what you want.

I mean, I'd answer it like this and say that New Zealand Rugby argues, well, let me answer your questions first. I'm not a fan of that seventy test match scenario because quite often it leads to special circumstances coming up because they haven't rigidly stuck to that. Jorddy Barrett doesn't have seventy test caps, by the way, from memory, and he's in Ireland. Patrick Tupeloso didn't have any when he signed and got sabbatical deal to go to Japan. Richie Muwanga, for example, if they could have got to him and said, hey, mat what about you do two years in Japan, we'll call you know, will allow you to be eligible in between seasons and then eligible when you come back home, they would have access to him right now, and you can say, well, that's not part of their eligibility policy. But they've always been willing to make exemptions and exceptions depending on circumstance. Which is why I don't really like about the rule is because it ultimately feels that they will override it on any given occasion if they feel a player is worth it, and that's sets I feel a really bad precedent and a bad example because The whole reason they don't want you guys to be eligible full time from over sees is they're talking about the integrity of Pathway. They want to encourage people to stay. They want they want that to be authentic. The way that they set the whole program up. Everybody kind of knows that if you you know, if you make a strong enough argument, and if circumstances favor you, like there's no other number turning around, and you start saying, hey, I might disappear and go offshore as well as a bit of leverage, they will probably bend and buckle and give you what you want.

For more from sports Talk, listen live to News Talks. It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.

For more from sports Talk, listen live to News Talks. It'd be from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.