Ryen Russillo and Brian Baumgartner

Published May 6, 2021, 8:00 AM

Episode 345 of the "Sports Illustrated Media Podcast" hosted by Jimmy Traina features two interviews. 

First up is Ryen Russillo of The Ringer. The podcast host talks about the fallout and regrets from his controversial podcast with Bill Simmons last year following protests that happened across America and why it was "a mistake." Russillo also discusses his decision to stick to sports, the differences and similarities between working for ESPN and The Ringer, why the Pandemic didn't affect his work life too much, whether he ever gets tired of podcasting, whether this will be a joyless season if the Nets win the NBA title and much more.

Following Russillo, Brian Baumgartner, who played Kevin Malone on "The Office." Baumgartner talks about hosting "The Office Deep Dive Podcast," what kind of Dunder Mifflin swag he has, the anniversary of his famous chili scene and how he feels about outlets editing out scenes from "The Office" Baumgartner, who is good friends with Aaron Rodgers, who also shares his insight on the Packers quarterback being unhappy with the team.

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Welcome everyone to the Sports Illustrated Media podcast. I'm your host, Jimmy Train a huge episode today, so I'm gonna keep it short here on the intro. First up, Brian Risilo from The Ringer. UH, great conversation with Ryan. We're all over the place, but we've covered uh the little controversy he got in last year doing a pobo Bill Simmons after the George Floyd's UH verdict and what went on in the country. And then Ryan got in some got some heat for that, so he for the first time speaks about that experience, talked about some sports stuff, some media things, UM, you know, leaving ESPN for The Ringer. Great uh conversation with Ryan, who's very open, so UM I appreciated that. And then following Ryan, Brian baum Gartner, who played Kevin Mallon on The Office, is on the pod and UH it's a very fun conversation as well. If you're a fan of the show. UM, if you missed last week, John o Ran from Sports Business Journal and I keep to Libra on the pod. They were both great. John breaking down some sports media news to leave talking about getting into broadcasting. I'm non verke two weeks ago was on the pod to check those out if you miss them, and please subscribe to the SI Media podcast. And if you can rate review that helps too. But subscription is the most important thing, so if you're not a subscriber, please do that. All right, here we go with Ryan or solo, followed by Brian Baumgartner. All right, joining me now, it's been way too long since September. Back on the SI Media Podcast, one of the most popular sports media figures out there now the ringer Ryan RS. Hello, Ryan, how's it going? Hey? Thanks for having me on me. I appreciate what Now you're out there in sunny California rocking the tank top. What's the temper? Because it's gray and raining and about fifty here right now. In New York where I live, it's it's almost always seventy one degrees a little hazy, but I'm not gonna complain. Yeah, I've just got done from a little boxing. You are from the East Coast. You ever miss a Winter Winner? Would be? Um? Would? Yeah? I never was one of those guys that like hated New England. I mean I lived in Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut again, So that was it until forty two years old. I think the first forty two years of my life. The only time I ever lived outside of New England was a six month stint in Trenton, Princeton area, South Jersey. There south, So I don't know, there's that route one. I think, yeah, because I just can't imagine having a Christmas when it's you know, seventy five degrees in sunny. That part's weird, definitely. And I'd say the part that I miss um is that you don't understand unless you're from the northeast, but that smell of a fall Saturday and it just smells like football. It's just it's it's a little cold, but it's a little breeze. They're just this smell to that part of the season. That's one of my favorite things about New England. And I love New England towns like I really do, like in towns I got to live in. Um. You know, Boston's a city, but there was a soul to him. There was kind of a part of it like some of these other parts of the country. And I've been probably everywhere for the most part, and you'll be like, there's no like soul to this. It doesn't feel like it has anything, and New England definitely has that. But I love the water and the fact that I can be in and out of the water. You're is important. Um. The last time you were on, we got into this whole thing about your terrible take about Pam from the Office and Jim and Pam, and it's funny because let me break the fourth wall here for the people listening. Today is Wednesday, and I'm taping with Ryan. Yesterday Tuesday, I taped an interview with Brian baum Gartner played Kevin on the Office, which will follow this interview with Ryan if you're listening to the podcast. So I got you on here with Kevin from the Office. You had a terrible take obviously about Pam being a horrible person. What do you have any feelings about Kevin Malone from the Office, who's coming on this podcast shortly? I like Kevin. I mean the tough part for Brian the actors that people are so thrown off when he's normal because he's a normal guy and he's not. People thought that was his voice on the show, which yeah, that's how good he was. But no, I don't feel honestly, the Pam thing is taken off. I mean I was whatever you want to say, you know, one giant step from mankind. I mean I was the guy putting the foot on the moon first on that one. And I mean, it's it's turned into an industry right now, the Pam stuff that's out there. So I feel like, you know, eventually when things are back to normal, to be some big convention and everyone will cheer me on and it will make shirts. She should definitely have you on her pot Karen Angela have a podcast that you know, I think she should have you on to Duke get Out. That would be weird, that would be really weird. I mean, I think my favorite part of all of it was there was a reporter that got really mad and she said, you know, I can't believe you would say this about a strong female character going on and on, and I just and I just went, you know, it was a fake documentary, right, like it was fake. We're just talking about a TV show because then like but no, but it would turn into like, well, Jim wasn't great, and like never said he was, never said White was great, never said Michael was great. Just that Pam becomes this girl next door America sweetheart thing and she was literally evil. I mean she had two moms. Her first mom checked out and and she got another one. Think about that. That's uh evil, that's the word to describe Pam Beasley evil. All right. She lied about a job, made it up, threatened corporate athlete. We've seen sports figures live about jobs on resumes. You know it happens. Yeah, But I mean, did do you want to marry any of those people? I think the guys that had an early crush on Pam see have a real blind spot to her faults as a human being, and I just try to point him out for everybody. Right. Um, when we well, the last time we spoke, you had just joined the Ringer from ESPN. Now I guess you're embarking on what year three at the Ringer. Yeah, there was a little overlap, um that so I was still with ESPN through nineteen August nineteen um, but I'd still been doing some stuff with a Ringer. So yeah, but it feels but it's been the biggest differences pluses and minuses for you Ringer versus the ESPN. Al Right, here we go. ESPN was it was almost fifteen years of my life. You know, I got there right around thirty I've been local Boston on a network that no one listened to, and I didn't make any money, but it was great because I got to do it every single day. So if you believe in the ten thou hour thing or whatever, that was me learning how to do the job and doing it every day and kind of getting this thing. Like I think hosts you all need to develop, meaning me included. You need to develop this this ear like a musician has an ear for something. You have to develop. Hey does this work? Does this play? Like? Would people be interested in this? You know? Would you change the channel on yourself? And those years of doing four hours a day afternoon drive, even though no one was really listening in Boston, it prepared me to go ahead and be a host at ESPN And so different times when your contracts up. You know, I think there was a time in I don't know, two thousand twelve I was up. You know, things didn't really feel like they've been working out of been there six years, and you know a couple of my closest friends were like, look, you were the guy in college that would would stop and watch TV even if we were all out. You were the guy that stayed in. If it was like a Red Sox game, you were the guy that you know, would would go get the newspaper. You'd walk into town and get the newspaper on Friday to get the lines, like I had to have this Boston Herald Friday edition special order to this news stand in Burlington, Vermont just so I could get this guy's article that I would read all the time. So they were kind of like, you know, how are you gonna feel if you're not going to be allowed to go to ESPN anymore? Because I had an offer to move to New York City, but there didn't really seem like there was much of a plan from place was making the offer. And it was a really cool exercise mentally because I turned on ESPN to start my day. I watched two people I knew be on Sports Center, you know, nine am Sports Center, and I go like, how are you gonna feel if you don't get to go there anymore? You know, like this is a dream. And I was like, I'm not gonna like that. So I resigned, you know, I stayed. I was lucky enough to get another offer, and then I got another offer after that, but the last time a sound, you know, as we touched on the pod there, I went through the exercise again, I said, I'll be fine. I mean there's about like five four or five other times where I thought it was like the last day I'd be on campus anyway, and then I came back. So being at the Ringer and now Spotify, which as you guys all know, acquired this last year. Um, it's just different because I guess I feel a little bit more important, which would make sense. You know, there's just guys ahead of you in line at ESPN, and I knew there was a ceiling on who I could be at ESPN, but I still felt like the ceiling for me personally was a little bit higher. And I think even though they liked me clearly didn't hate me. They wanted me to stick around, but they didn't like me as much as I wanted to like me. And that's fine. Um, we went our separate ways and who know. But I just feel like Bill with somebody who for years was like, you're good at this, you're good at this, and then he brings you in and and he kind of either he proved it or I proved it, and I just you know it feels good to kind of be a place where the like, no, we think you're really good at this job. So and what about in terms of creative freedom or just freedom to say and do what you want on a on a on a podcast. Um, is there a big difference thing? I don't know how much now. I really don't think so. I think one of the biggest misconceptions about ESPN is how controlling they are about content. Um, They're just really not you know, all these theories of oh, well they want you to do this or this is good, it's just not true. Like I remember one time when we had just gotten a NASCAR package. I did a radio show on a Saturday or Sunday where I studied NASCAR the entire night. This is way back, like oh six oh seven. I'd be filling in. I'd have like one shift every three weeks and put way too much into it. So I'm reading pages and pages of NASCAR stuff to prepare for this NASCAR thing because they're like, hey, you're gonna make this a priority. And then finally, like another radio manager was like, you know what, none of these guys really know what they're talking about. And even though it's a new property. Like, you know, let's go back to the NFL. NFL, it's gonna be your highest rated segment. Um. The sec stuff is never true, you know, the NBA. I liked the NBA, but I didn't do it because ESPN had to deal with him. I didn't talk about different conferences because the ESPN and so I have just as much freedom. I mean, I can swear now, which I probably do a little too much of, But as far as ESPN and the freedom of doing shows or podcasts that I wanted to do, there was way more freedom there than people realize. That's interesting. Yeah, it's funny though, because obviously you're I don't know if he's your I guess technically he's your boss, Bill Simmons. I mean, he famously got in trouble for saying Roger Condell's a liar on a podcast. Now, that of course is that's different than being able to say what you want because espens in bed with the NFL, and obviously there's a lot of issues there. So I think maybe that's why some people might have a perception that ESPN um maybe a little tighter on freedom. It's a it's a simple rule, though, if you're gonna talk. Whether it's a talk show, panel show, TV or podcast like that, you're supposed you just stop, supposed to make it personal, you know. And so Sea League Sea League took everything really personal. So if you criticize Sea League, he would he would have you punished, which I never quite understood why. Um Goodell, I'll give him this, Like I didn't hear about stuff as much as See League. We'd hear stuff constantly, like up this guy criticized Sea Leg and now he's gonna get yelled at. And he had really really thin skin. I'll give Goodell this. He has a lot thicker skin. But Bill said something that was so personally attacking that that's when you get in trouble, right, Yeah, it's funny. I remember I had three, um, well to two plus years at Fox Sports dot Com, which I try to forget about. And I remember because they have a partnership with MLB, there was a freak out one day over like don't cover something because you know. So it's interesting that you would say that about See Leg as well. Um, you said a little while ago about people doing this finding their voice. I find it really hard now to have a voice because every word is possibly the end of what you're doing. It's more difficult than ever. And what's interesting is on the luxury of a podcast, we can edit, So if we say something it guess is something that we think is going to cause a big ruckus, we could at least edit it out. It's a little different even than live TV or live radio. UM. Do you are you struggling at all with that? It's really gotten worse. And whereas over the past couple of years, UM, where you just every word is a minefield, basically do you feel that or or is that just me exaggerating. No, I don't think it's an exaggeration. Um. I've always tried to be really authentic. I wanted to be the same guy on the air as the same guy that you would meet if you ever ran into me. UM. And I think, you know, over the course of the last couple of years, the job, we could say the job has changed. I think the way they've I personally didn't get into sports in two thousand two so that I could talk about societal stuff, like, you know, I really like baseball, but I'm really hoping to talk about you know, social issues in you know, like I don't think anybody started off in sports hoping to pivot to that a little bit later. So I know that at times, whenever a guy with a sports background gives his toes into that, you can either just be exploit it is like, oh, well, you know, exploits wrong word. Um. Exposed is being like, hey, you're you're just not educated enough on this or whatever, and usually just comes down to your politics. It's like, oh, I disagree with you, so I think you're stupid and sticks and sports and all that kind of stuff. Um. And I know that whenever I think about, like some of the tougher topics, like I went through a lot of stuff last year where Bill and I talked about everything that was going on in l A in the in the aftermath of George Floyd being murdered, and it ended up being, you know, a podcast where I look back and have a lot of regret because I just feel like I didn't do a very good job, even though I've been talking for a living for almost two decades. I was like, maybe maybe I didn't understand that the minefield was there for me. Um. So Ever, since that time, I went you know what, I got into this to talk sports, you can still do the job by talking sports. Um, and that's that's what I that's what I set out to do. So for me, it was kind of like a hard pivot back where I'm like, yeah, there's some issues that will come up or a topic that will come up. And after everything that happened with that and just some of the stuff that was said about me that just wasn't true, I'm like, you know what I think, I think from now on, like, I'll stick to rank and NBA players and I'll stick to some of this other stuff. And clearly the numbers back it up like that, that's what the audience is coming to me for. They're not going, hey, I wonder how what he thinks about the House of Representatives this year. You know, I don't think anybody is ever downloaded podcast hoping that that was going to be the lead. Do you think I sort of think and it's gonna sound so simple and it's not really an original thought. A lot of people have said this. I firmly believe this one thousand percent. Like you, I agree with what you said. When I started I started at Sports Illustrated in two thousand, I never thought I'd be covering social issues as well, you working for Sports Illustrated. I feel like it's only happening because of social media. I think that is. I think that is what if if if social media didn't exist. I don't think we would ever in sports me talking about that stuff because I do think a lot of people. I do it too, because I have zero would be zero would be low because I mean it still would come up from time, right, I mean, would you agree with that? Whatever the number is, I don't think it's zero. I just think I don't know because I don't want to get into a whole thing about it. But I feel like it all started obviously with Trump, and I think Trump was a product of social media, and then it became cover everything that's on social media basically, and that spread it out. All this other stuff about social justice and everything just all came to a head because this is what everyone was doing basically, and it was all going on on social media, and people like me and sports media companies use social media to direct content, which I think has been a mistake. Well, definitely, social media has a lot to do with it because I'll see, you know, people that I'm friends with, and I'll go wow. I think I never knew you were that interested in this, or I didn't know that this was the main priority for you. And then I wonder like, wait, or is this because this is how you start your day every day? Or is this because like what you really believe or you know that this actually plays? Um, I know the segment I could have done with Bill with five minutes and all right, everybody else of like me, And instead I wanted to go a little bit deeper on some of the things I thought about, and then it all just got spun into something else. And look, there's still stuff I said in that that I regret, and you should have been two white guys talking about that topic for as long as we did. It was stupid, and I apologized, and you know, I felt bad about it. I really felt bad about it because I was like, man, I think there's so many people like you assume people know where your heads at and your heart's in the right place and things you care about, and then you can forget like that's a huge audience. And I was on bills pods, so not everybody knows me, you know, not everybody does know me that well, so and they're like, who's this asshole? So I after that time, especially when I was reading like hey the stuff I got, stuff I did wrong, I was like, all right, yeah, like I deserve to get my ask kick here a little bit. But then there was other stuff where I was like, okay, this is just turning into like none of this is even accurate now. So it was a lesson of like, I don't want to talk about that stuff because I'm not as educated about it. If I'm a black guy, I probably pretty tired of hearing a couple of white guys go, hey, here's what's not racist this week. You know that's not that's not cool. So I don't I just don't want to do that stuff because there'll be times it's a topic will come up and it's like, oh, Steve Nash, you know he get hired? Is that because of raising? And I'm just like, you know what, I'm just gonna talk about the nuts. I'm gonna talk about the nets roster because that's what I'm comfortable doing. And I do wonder when I look at some of the programming decisions, like I'll wonder, yeah, is it a byproduct of everything that's hot that day on social media or you know, like the ESPN part of it, like they were struggling trying to get everybody back on the sports path years prior to last year, and then once everything that was going on for a bunch of different reasons, it was like, now like we can't We're not gonna tell anybody what they can and can't do right now. And I know that Cannell and I years ago had done a segment where I was like, man, I sometimes I wonder what the job is now, and then you know, look I got I got ripped for that. I was just asking right, right, And I bet you whatever that segment was that you did was probably driven by social media. That's sort of about all this. Yeah, I guess, like I'll look back and think when I first started ESPN, like Cowherd was really good on on like social observation and that kind of stuff, right, But he he would do well, no, look, you may have disagreed with him, but he would put some thought into it that would make you think, look, I'm with you. There's plenty of times where he would say something where I would disagree, but that segment would stand out, right, that segment would stand out. And the example that I I use is I remember being on Mike and Mike one day with Danny Cannell and at that point, like the Warriors were either going to get their in or they weren't, And I mapped out the whole way it was gonna happen, and it was sourced, and I was like, this is what's gonna happen if the deal goes down and nailed it. It's one of the smartest, most informed, best things I've ever done on the air. Ever, no one fucking cared because what I think was starting to happen is if you really broke through on something that was happening, that was newsworthy and you were passionate about, and so somebody like in cow Hurts position that maybe would do one of those segments every six months. Then it was turning into like, oh, we're doing this once a week now, and then I would look around, going like, all right, want to come in and talk about whether or not the SEC is light years ahead of Ohio State or the Big ten. And then you'd be like, wait, am I Am I doing this wrong now? Because I want to rank the conferences because everything that's happening around me seems to be different. So it was just a weird It was a weird segment to do when people kind of got pissed about that one. So I was like, all right, well that that's my issue is more than anything is I just feel like there there's no forgiveness, there's no context. Like, for instance, I will probably get someone on Twitter guaranteed when we post this podcast on Thursday, someone will be like, oh, how could you have Rosilo on? After the you know him and Bill Simmons talks about Black Lives matter and he's a Trump supporter or whatever they're gonna say. And it's like, okay, so you did this segment with Bill, you realize not the best thing to do. You apologize, you felt bad for it. We can't accept that. We have to just now that's like the label, like that's gonna be tagged. That's what I hate more than anything is that there's no now listen, I think there's and I do think they're cases that come up. Tom Brennaman, for instance, no issue with him getting fired right off the bat. I mean, that was just mind boggling what he did. But you had that has to be you have to judge. I think each situation on its own, the context of it, and then it's too much like all one thing, each controversy quote unquote, should be judged on itself. That's how I feel what it was an awful week and the thing that I actually was trying to do when all of a sudden, I became this Trump supporter through the media, which is just not true. I didn't got for him at the time. I was saying, Hey, I wasn't exactly running around a two thousand you know, two thousand eight with an Obama hoodie on a Hope hoodie. But even I can understand is not somebody who's way left. Look, I can't really stand any of the politicians. All I remember, like the first time I really cared about it, my father was a self employed carpenter. We didn't have health insurance. You know, some years are better than others. Was an high school and Clinton came on and was like, hey, within a hundred days, health care for all. That was this big thing, was health care for all. And You're like, this is great because I was being selfish in the moment, because I wanted my dad to feel better about having health insurance for the family. And it was an unbelievable speech and go back and look to it. I was hooked. I was like, this is great. You know, family voted for him, um, and I guess what didn't happen, you know, And so that's not a Republican Democrat thing. It's just oh. So it was like the first sense of like, man, that was such a great, great way to get people to vote, and it wasn't even close to be like, he wasn't gonna be able to pull it off. And so when what I was doing was you know, maybe you people could get like it's funny because people like, oh, you're just another ESPN lip. But now I've become like maga boy because I said, this awful week. You know, whatever the job of president, whatever the demands are, whatever the previoum at the very least, like one of the easiest things about the job is understanding decency, understanding how to be decent in the moment, Like sometimes the untry just needs a fucking hug and you need to say the right thing. And Trump was incapable of ever doing that. So even if you're a Trump supporter listening to this podcast, like I think you'd even have to if you were of of moderate intelligence, go hey, it would have been nicer if he could have just, you know, not pissed everybody off in the aftermath of another horrible thing happening. Um and even listening to people are gonna hear me, but I was trying to like kind of shake the listener go hey, like not even is the biggest Obama guy either. I can understand he would be so much better right now because he would know what to say, He would act more like a leader. He would actually be as cheesy as it sounds, a little more presidential. And maybe none of that stuff matters and changes anything in the grand scheme of things. But I was presenting that and then I woke up on that Monday and was like, oh and seriously, like one of the New York papers said, Roussillo defends vote for Trump for tax purposes after George Floyd murder, and I went, you, like, you're gonna be kidding me, Like what? And so then you know, then once that happens, then it's kind of game on because then everybody can be like, well, I'm using that headline is my source. And then all sorts of stuff was was going on, and some weird stuff happened, and I remember like a reporter who just had everything wrong and was trying to like I could tell there's people that were trying to get me, and I would call him back and go, look, we're off the record here, but like, here's the deal. This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, and he'd be like, and you know, we talked it out. I thought we were fine. And then he took one piece of what I was talking about with looting where I said, look who's proloder? And I go, and by the way, everybody that's in social media that if you're from one part of the argument trying to point out like, oh look at this group looting, well there's another group that looks completely different from this group that's also doing the same ship. So my thing is, if you're a bullshit peddler for your own message, I have no time for you whatsoever. And I pointed that out. But then there was one part of it where it turned into I was saying something about sneakers being sold, and then that ends up in the New York Times, and so you were like, what are you doing? This is this isn't even accurate. So you sit at home and you think your heart's in the right place, and now you're like, ah, this sucks, like it's not fun. You know, it just wasn't fun. So but then again, there were much worse things happening to then we're happening to me, So like you gotta move on and just say, all right, we'll funk it. Like I'm not gonna sit here and fight with everybody all day about this. And once you're in it, once you're in it, you can't. Once you're in it, you have to just step back for a couple of days and let it die down because you're not gonna win that battle. Everyone's coming at you. But I'm just curious because you said you said you didn't vote for Trump by the time, and then you got pegged as a Trump supporter because somebody said about tack. How did that become that you became known as a Trump voter if you didn't vote for Trump just because of that tax line, because the taxes thing. Because then even when I said to a couple of friends, they were like, well you voted, I was like, I didn't know, Like you're just saying that now. I went all right, I'm like, you guys are acting like I'm going to see oh of Amazon over here and that I you know, I have I have different thoughts on people working their asses off, trying to make a decent living, putting money in a college fund, hoping to be able to go on vacation, a couple of cars, you know, make sure you're putting away as much as you can in a four oh one K. And look, I hesitant to even do this, but I think if you really look into people that are trying to do it the right way. I'm not talking about multi multimillionaires, but just hoping to get their slice of life here and do it in the right way, there's some scary proposals out there. And I'll leave it at that. So there you go. And you don't want to talk about politics, well, look, I mean I haven't really talked about this. I had to go ahead. You can have that plan. I think it's hard to stick to that plan when now it's so much a part of sports no matter what I mean, you can't escape it at this point just because and I'm not just talking about the NBA putting Black Lives Matter on a best ball court, which seems to fend people that I'm not. But just you know, you watch a football game, they do all this. You know, they have the army and they're flying things around and you know national anthem Yankee games seventh seventh in the middle of the seventh inning, the Yankees are doing God Bless America. Like it's there. It's like everything is becomes so heightened and you've noticed it more and you pay it. I don't know how you I don't know how sports is gonna get away from it at this point. It might not, and maybe that's, you know, what everybody needs. I don't have any of the answers on this kind of stuff, but I know that when I watch as much NBA as I do, I'm watching going, Hey, do I think the Suns can beat the Lakers? Do I think the Jazz can beat the Sun's? All right, Well, there's the open that I'm gonna do tomorrow. Hey, it's Chris Paul underrated, boom done? Why is no one playing defense? Is this the worst season I've ever seen as far as like challenging and having Okay, well, that makes sense because everything's going on. It's like two seasons in one, and there's no fans for most of it. Let me call a couple of coaches Hey, what do you think what's some GM saying? And then I'll share that with everybody, and then I'll do an interview with a sports related topic every now and then I'll dip outside of it. So I've been doing it now for a year and it works. So you're right. We could say how can you escape it? I've just been like, look, I I try. I you know what sucks so much about the regardable podcast is I was like, all right, well I'm gonna do this, Like, let me think about a bunch of different ways to talk about these topics and research Minneapolis and credit younger people for caring about this stuff in ways that my generation didn't really care. You know, my generation didn't talk about this stuff. You weren't as conscious about everything that's going on. So I think younger people deserve a ton of credit for caring about this stuff. And you know what, you say one or two things that steer you down the road of like, oh, you're one of those guys, And I was like, well I'm not. But I also didn't feel like tweeting NonStop, like I had friends that all of a sudden, like I can't believe you voted for him? And I'm like, what are you talking about? So, But then again, I didn't want to go on because I also don't know why anybody would spend each morning when Trump was in office going all right, well, I gotta fire off my anti Trump ship before I leave the house today, because I just go you know, maybe it's a coping that organism, maybe it makes you feel better, but I personally, when it goes back to just people being consumed with social media, that's what it is, I would say, go outside. You know. YEA not easy for people to do though. I mean that Twitter, that Twitter app is addictive, that's the problem. And Facebook, forget I'm not Eve Gonna. I mean that should just be banned for life. But that's all. Um, alright, let's let me. I want to do you do two or three pods a week for the rigor three sometimes four? But um, yeah, you're probably prolific. Do you ever get tired of it? The other? Ever days? I write every day, and I have to admit there are days where I just I'm like, I have nothing, I've got nothing in the tank. You do three pods a week, I think that's a lot. Other ever days where you're like and I don't even mean. I don't mean the act of getting on the microphone and speaking. I mean, is there anything Is there every day where you just don't have an opinion on something? You gotta remember, Jimmy, I'm going for fifteen hours a week for almost a decade. And one of the reasons, right, one of the other reasons I moved on from that is that I spent well over a decade waking up thinking about what I wanted to say, spending all day thinking about what I wanted to say, prepping for it, writing, reading, calling, and then talking for three hours on the year, and then that little post show respite of workout, grab some dinner, and then watch NBA games from seven until one am. I mean, that was a decade straight and all I did was think about the show. And then on the weekends, all I did was think about the show. So yes, there's probably a day every now and then where I'm like, I don't really like my open or maybe I won't do a longer monologue, or you know, I probably could be a little bit more prepped up on this guest and if I have a serious thing where I you know, look, all of us are still going to have interviews. You're like, you know, like I could have done a better job of that and I didn't, then that will motivate me to make sure it doesn't happen again for a long time. But I would the simple answers no, because to go from fifteen hours to doing you know, four or four and a half to six hours of podcasting a week, I get excited about doing it. And you know, one of the things that's really weird about the job is at times he'd work with somebody and'd be like, why do you want to be on air when you don't have anything to say? Like, I have stuff I want to say. It doesn't mean it's right, But if I'm gonna spend all this time watching games with legal pads everywhere, taking notes, then I want to share with people. And um, so I would say, yeah, like going back, scaling down. I don't feel like I'm doing a ton of work, even though I know that, you know, it's still a number of pots. That's the way to do it. If you don't feel like you're doing a ton of work, you're doing something right. Um, what's it been like you personally working during the pandemic and just doing it from home, not being able to go to games. You know, it's not being able to see people. You think, it's a little archie creatively, a little bit like no, no, I I I'm pretty used to being by myself anyway. So some of my friends joked that nobody's been more prepared for the pandemic than you, um, And I knew, you know, I don't have kids from home schooling, so I wasn't complaining. Work was not something I had to worry about like so many other people had to worry about. So I was really lucky. So throughout it all, I was like, I'm not going to complain about this, and We'll try to use the time, um for the other things that you know, I'm working on with the with the writing part of it, and I just wanted to do what I could like it. You know. Sure i'd love to go to games, and I'd love to start going to games again. I'm sure I will here soon. But for me, going to games wasn't as important because you know, I always have a ton of respect for the beat people the print side of it still have to show up all the time, especially the people like the local beat that are like baseball beat writers. I always kind of bring it up. But after having a season with a minor league baseball team and seeing what it's like to be in the dugout, you know, one sixty two at in spring training all these other days, so I didn't have to do it for my job. But um well, I'm happy that. I'm happy that people got through this. I'm happy that more things were able to be pulled off here than people thought well over a year ago when it was like, really the projections were so bad that people were wondering where we'd even been at this point. So I try to make the most of it. And you know, I'm I'm I'm ready to start traveling again like everybody else. But like I said, it wouldn't it didn't impact me a ton, I have to say. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say this since I'm working for Supports Illustrated, but I miss concerts more than I miss sporting events. Yeah, that's an escape for you. You know, can still work, So that makes sense, right, Who are you most gonna Who are you fired up to go see? I don't know. I mean, you know, I'm I'm out here on Long Island and they do concerts at Jones Beach, so it's perfect for a pandemic. It's outside, it's at the beach. I'm vaccinated, so like i'd feel totally safe. I don't want My thing is I don't want to go to a concerts and sporting events and have to wear a mask. Now, I'm going to be accused of being an anti masaker, but believe me, when I'm in the store and I see someone not wearing a mask, I get pissed. But like, if I'm vaccinated and i'm outside, I'm at Yankee Stadium or Jones Beach and I'm vaccinated, I should not have to wear a mask. I'm sorry, Faucie, but it's absurd. Yeah, i'd like to think you're okay with that one, but you know I've probably already said enough on this pod that I don't know if I want to give my masky, don't give your mask take because you'll get in more trouble. I'll take the hit for that one saying I'm sick of I don't want to wear the mask if I'm vaccinated outside, especially and you want me to wear the mask for the twenty minutes when the supermarket. I have no problem with to keep everyone safe. That's fine. Outside. I don't think there's any issue. It's it's absurd. I do you know here in New York we're very very well. We were very lucky before of the pandemic in that um. Every single month, once a month, Billy Joel did a show at Madison Square Garden. So there would be nights where, like you know they be days, would be at the s I office four o'clock in the afternoon, call up, so you know you want to go, let's go see Billy, going like just see Billy like it was great because he did like it was like a residency at Madison Square Garden basically. So I do miss that because it was just once a month. How long has he been doing that? Oh, it's been like, oh god, I probably would say he's been doing that for like five, six, seven years. I don't even know that. I'm not a huge Billy Joel guy, and I probably shouldn't share that, but I think it's bartending back in the days and having sat Mike's kids say can you please please put on piano for last call? And I'll just be like, all right, I've had it. It's funny because I went on Twitter once and got into the biggest ship storm ever because I said piano Man wouldn't be in my top twenty five Billy Joel songs and people, I mean, listen, I get it, Like if you go to a Billy Joel concert and he doesn't play piano Man, they'll burn Madison Square Garden to the ground. Like, I get it. I don't need to hear it ever. Again, as far as I mean, you can really like them, though you're like you're more of a troubadours. Well that's always like, yeah, that's that's why I take a break from, you know, singing badly during piano Man. I relaxed and then I get ready for like you know, scenes from a Talian restaurant or something like that. So I respect the hell out of him. I really get it. I respect all of it. But it's just there's certain bands, you know, there's certain bands that you just when you if you bartended for a while, you're like, all right, like Montell Jordan's this is how we do It, Martha's Vineyards Summer a nineties six. When I was bartending, I was just like, I can't and I respect the hell out of that song and his height, his length, but it was Jordan even do it? Does he have enough song to do a concert at a Clippers game where he did halftime? Yeah? Have you ever because you're you're very very good friends with Chrissa Thompson, who is an enormous Lionel Richie's fan. Have you ever seen Lionel Richie with carisso or by yourself? No, we actually saw him out we were at this Uh you know, look, I lived down by the beach, so I've been I get lost whenever I go up to Hollywood still like I used to have to go up for meetings or you know, back when things were still a little bit normal. And you know, Northeast guys are the worst because we're like every place sucks and we've never been anywhere, right, We just were experts on every place without ever having to go. And so my friends are like, man, I can't believe we're moving there. You're gonna hate it. And I knew I was gonna love it because I knew the part that I wanted to live in, and so I I every now and then. I think I was more adventurous when I first first got here, where I was like, all right, look, I just still have to see what some of these deals like, I gotta go to a couple of these places, Like what's this place about? So there's um I think it's Sunset Tower. It's kind of this restaurant hotel deal and everybody goes to it. It's kind of like an industry thing. And I went there one night with Chris and some of her friends and Lionel Richie was there, and it was it was a big freak out she had. She was good. I mean, she's been around celebrities for such a long time, even though she she loves Lionel so much. It was I was very impressed with how she she just she kneeled it like. I got invited probably the coolest party one I don't know. I think it was the first year I was here, and I knew going into it because the guy that was inviting me, he was like, you're this is gonna be a real hit list of of famous people, and I was so far Like I'm talking, if you had a seed everybody like one through sixty eight, I would have been the CB. I all right, And I showed up with Chrissa and it was it was kind of like it was funny too, because people could tell like we weren't together, so they were zero respect for the fact that I walked in with her whatsoever. And I was kind of like, it was almost like that Seinfeld episode where You're like, I know I'm not with her, but shouldn't you have more How did you know? Shouldn't you have a little bit more respect? Because I showed up with her? Um so now I'm actually just making fun of myself. But she's great. Yeah. I saw Lionel MSG a couple of years ago. It was I could not believe how good it was. You see that was? See anything about that is? I went in low expectations and then they and then it was like, you know through the basically how good it was. So that was a good show. I'd love to see him again. UM let me I see a couple of sports things I'm curious about. We're about the same age I and people are gonna get on me for this and I don't care. Don't tweet me. I'm just gonna this is how I feel. This is my I hate this, all this streaming business. I hate it. I want to watch cable and now Thursday night Football next year is Amazon Prime only no television. Does this bother you as well? Or am I just really an old mother? Hey look, i'll tell you right now. The first time I heard about it, I was like, what are you gonna do? You know? But think about how many times people have been wrong about technology. I remember when eBay first came around, a couple of friends that were, you know, in banking right there, Like, so you're just gonna say you're gonna pay for something that's not gonna work, you know. Imagine if you like, wait, a stranger is just gonna pick you up and you're gonna drive you somewhere, Like I'm gonna let my kids do that. That's stupid. You know what am I gonna do? I'm just gonna I'm supposed to just tweet out how to sandwich send? So how often do the curmudgeons have to be wrong about technological advances before you finally admit maybe you don't have the greatest scope on things. So I'm fairpoint, fair point, I'm not anti streaming. Stream whatever you want to put every game on streaming, just still give me the option to watch it on cable and take care of old people like me. That's all I'm saying, you want to stream it, stream it, but still put it on somewhere where I can, because I like, don't you like to flip around? Like I don't? When you stream, you can't flip. You can't I need to flip during the game, all those commercials half time, not watching halftime shows that much, Like I think you watch curb your enthusiasm too much. Like I'm listening to you, and I already can see like you have you have the older version of you down already, Like my dream, Larry's my dream guest, Larry's my dream that you and I both. I wrote a curb and one of his guys years ago read it and was like, this is actually not terrible. You know, because when you're not an established writer, people kind of go into it being like, you know, one of my friends get a script that was a word document that wasn't even spaced, and they went, hey, you're gonna have to you have to format this differently. And I wrote a curb where you know, obviously the whole episode Larry's wrong, and then Larry's the punchline at the end, and the guy was like, this isn't terrible, but the problem is is like, you made fun of Larry for thirty something pages, and he does he doesn't know the show is making fun of Larry. Yeah, that's not very scripted either, But um right, yeah, I think you have it down. I think you have it. Look, I get your point, but I've I've given it. I'm in whatever it is. I've got all the TVs updated, and it was really really frustrating. And then guess what, like when I want ESPN and the UFC fight like I hit a button and then all of a sudden it's on. So I don't know I'm in. When I try to do it, it's like you don't have this subscription, you got upgrade to this, then this doesn't. Then it's on this streaming service that I don't pay for, even though I pay for twenty whatever. Um NFL opening Sunday. Is Aaron Rodgers, the Packers quarterback. Is he retired? Is he on another team? Great question. I have not been a fan of how he and his team have handled this. I mean, it was so incredibly obvious that hey, let's dominate draft coverage and have everybody talk about us, and then they leaked specific you know, thoughts with different guys to make sure they took care of everybody. You know, schefter Rappaport. I'll give you a wacky conspiracy theory too. I wondered too if part of the leak was to ruin his derby Saturday. Wait, I think I thought it was leaked. It was like the draft, right, so you think somebody who's anti Rogers leaked it. I thought it. I can see you go anither way. Okay, but the Jeopardy part was clearly leaked from the Roger's side, because that the Jeopardy part is not any He's been saying that for weeks. Are people not paying attention. He's done at least three interviews where he said he will do Jeopardy full time and he can do it in the off season because they only tape for like forty eight days or something like that. He has said that in numerous and he said it to mcafe, he said it somewhere. He said it to Kyle brand I think or no, he said on Good Monday. First of all, he was, okay, all right, let's not act like you know, this guy made us change the idea of who hosts should or shouldn't be all right, he was he was good for a football player, and you're like, hey, that was pretty good. But then it's like, oh, you're actually gonna be the guy. Those are different, Those are different grading scales. But the Rappaport tweet specifically that Bill and I lost our minds about, was that the leak was well, people of Jeopardy really were impressed, as if all of a sudden, Green Bay was gonna go. You know, we were gonna hold steady on this one. But you know, you see that rappapor tweet about Jeopardy exacts really like an erin, Like that was ridiculous. So that part I don't think was sent out to ruin Aaron's Kentucky Derby experience. My guests would be that, um, I don't know, man, the NBA, anytime you're saying, oh that guy will be back in there, never, they're always gone. And the quarterbacks now are just the evolution of the NBA star. So this stuff is gonna start happening more and more. That's what this offseason has been about. Whether it was just shown before all of the personal stuff, but then Russell Wilson, who wants out because I also think his wife wants out. Um, and now you have Rogers here. If Rogers really wanted out, then you should have done it before free agency. Um so I think all of this is calculated. I don't think it's really gonna work out that will for I'll just look, it's a guest, it's not an informed guest. Yeah, I think they'll give in and probably trade him. Be interesting to see where that that that will. I mean, listen, CPS and Fox. I love that that will generate a ton of interest amount another team. And um, you know, here's the thing. There's a part of me that you know, I'm a Yankee fan. I love the fact that Derek Jeter spent his whole life is a Yankee. I like when superstar players spend their whole career with one team. I think there's something special about that doesn't happen anymore. But in terms of business excitement, Aaron Rodgers on a different team would be a good thing for the NFL. I think yeah, because it's just a new storyline. I mean all of these things. You know Kevin Clark who works at The Ringer, who's a terrific, terrific writer. Um, he's just so good on football, but he's on here. A couple of months ago. Yeah, good get he kind of. He wrote a piece about F one, about the Netflix series that the F one series, and I watched the third season first and then regretted immediately because I was like, this is incredible, And I went back and watched the other two seasons, and I've watched parts of I think the first and third race like a good chunk of it. I watched the entire third race, and I'm like, I can't believe I'm sitting here watching an F one race. I've never had any interest, but I had interests because I knew the storylines now where I wanted to see the follow up to the storylines because I was now emotionally invested, which I think every league should be trying to do as much as they possibly can, as they're all competing for eyeballs and so just the story alone of the Aaron Rodgers character being somewhere else adds to it. But I do think and this is kind of funny because it brings it full circles some of the stuff we were talking about, like nobody wants to stick up for management, but there are times where I'll see former players or maybe more player friendly media members like always back the NBA player whenever they want their way out, you know, because it's easy to do. Like if let's just use Anthony Davis for example, you can say, Okay, the organization didn't support him, they didn't bring it enough people. Okay, but look as soon as he signed with Clutch, like we pretty much knew he's gonna end up with Lebron anyway, So this wasn't some big mystery. But is it okay to look at it a case by case basis and say, okay, well, this guy, I understand why he wants out, but I really don't want to see like hardened rewarding because he's got two years left on his deal. And but I know what's gonna happen that the evolution of of the power now as it's shifted to the player and the player empowerment phase, which I think at times I can before, but I'm not a cent for all the time. So then it can be like expose you as well, Wait a minute, what's what's your deal? Like where's your head at with some of this stuff? And you're like, well, my head is it? In each subject, I decide individually if I'm pro or for this, and I feel like people got mad at Lebron ten years ago from leaving as a free agent, and now guys are gonna ask their way out with two years left, and you have people going, yeah, I can see that, like it's cool. So I still think there'll be somebody, whether it's a a non quarterback or an NBA guy that signs with four years left on steal that goes, you know what, I'm gonna want out of here because it slowly starts to move it in the opposite direction that we were all growing up with. It's I'm laughing as you say this because I feel like you can see like my notes for this podcast, because my next question. We can wrap it up on this with this what I was gonna ask because I know you're a huge NBA guy, NBA your favorite Give me your power rankings of your favorite sports. Let's do a fluff question first, give me the Ryan Sell power rankings. You gotta watch sports. Give me like one to three four. You know. The weird thing is, forever it was baseball, it was like I didn't miss a Red Sox game for seven years. I'm not talking about like caught most of them. I'm saying if I had to like do something outside. I had a little little earpiece to an AM radio. I went through that phase myself. I'm subsessed, obsessed about it. It's amazing what you can pick up on when you've watched every single pitch of a season for for multiple guys, because you can see like, oh, that's where this guy's hole was in his swing, or Okay, this guy doesn't have his control because of this. Like it's crazy because I was like, man, I'm really good at this. And that's the problem they have. When I think ESPN has with something Night Baseball is when they have the national crew. It's terrible anyway, but it could be anybody in that spot. They come intoing a Yankee game when they have not done the Yankees whole season. They don't know what they're talking about. Like it's very hard. I think for baseball national guys to come in like you. I think there's this because I did with the Yankees. There is value in watching every game like that like you did, where you pick up on things. And I think when you're a National Baseball guy and you come in and you you know, a Rod does the Yankees, I guess he probably doesn't more than once a month because they have other you know, maybe it doesn't twice a month. I think it's hard to know the ins and out to the teams like that. But that's not even an a Rod rescursion thing. No, that's that's an every national Yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of that I remind myself of is that when I was local Boston guy, I hated all the national guys too. Okay, and here's here's the formula. No national guy knows. This is for fans, Like, no national guy knows as much about your team as you do for the most part. I mean, yes, there's some exceptions here, but you have to remember that. So then once I started kind of working on it, and I went from local Boston guy who hated all the national guys too. Then I was doing national and I go, you know what, like local guys need to chill out about this. And I would tell people like, hey, you're mad because so and so, Like I'd come on, and that's the thing when you're at ESPN, you come on and then you kind of like answer for other ESPN people. And I just like, look, why are why are you freaked out? Like he's probably watching your team five times, and you've watched him, you know, fifty times already this year, so so don't worry about what he's like. He doesn't he doesn't know what he's talking about. And I'm telling you because now I've seen both sides of it. So the baseball just became something that I was less involved with because it wasn't what I was doing. And I loved the Celtics ownership coming in. They were great to us because I was moving to Boston when Wick and his group took over right at the same time, and then you know, I just started going to those games and had more access. So the NBA is always going to be the first answer, but it's somebody that grew up in New England and got to experience football in the South. I love a Saturday in the SEC as as much as any event. I do love boxing. I love M M A in person because the other part is I don't really have to talk about it, so I'm not watching it analytically and thinking like, what are my seven takes on this, or what if this happens, she needs it more, who's under more pressure is it, who's the blame. I just watch it and enjoy the fighting part of it. But I can't tell you how how cool just you're feeling like you're in a different country when you go down South and you're around these these people that I just enjoy so much and these programs that I just feel really lucky that I got to do that for such a long time. And the cool thing is because I did it for such a long time, Like some of those places are still inviting me back. So college football is like right there with the NBA. Alright, so here's my NBA question. I am not against guys leaving early in college. No, no, no, in the NBA like I'm not. I don't mind. I'm not totally early draft or asking to be asking to be traded. Like the Anthony Davison you mentioned, it doesn't bother me that much. I'd had. I mean, I wish Lebron state in Cleveland, but the fact that he went to Miami and one of those titles, I thought it was fun and exciting. I didn't have an issue with it. Um, I don't mind the A d Lebron thing. It doesn't bother me. For some reason. Though the season ends this year and the new New Jersey, the Brooklyn Nets win an NBA title. Where is the joy, Where is the excitement? Where is the fun in any of that? Not one guy who's homegrown, not one guy who's been there for more than five minutes. What what's the satisfaction for the NBA fan out of that? Or is it you know what, they can become the ultimate villain and your root for them to lose. Yeah, I'll tell you people were way more mad about the Heat then they were the Brooklyn Nets. But I think there's a lot more to dislike. I think this is much more egregious. Yeah, but do you think that the public has played it's played out that way publicly? I don't think so. I also have been incredibly distracted with other things. What I envision is it's one of the NBA Finals July, sitting there and the Nets win the title, the confetti is going up Durant and Harden hug and like, as a fan of the NBA, I'm just like, I don't have it. I usually, I mean, you probably feel, you know, from doing what we do and getting to know people in the industry, in the business, you start you root for players almost more than teams. For me at least, like I love Lebron. I know he's anti he's pro China whatever. Don't dude, you really are qualifying everything right now. Twitter's in your head, Jimmy, I I love it to cleanse you here. I love Lebron, root for Lebron. How can you not like stuff Curry? You? I root for Steph Curry. Like embiad who doesn't like Joel Embiid. I like Blake Griffin, I like Kevin Durant. But them putting up that trophy, it will be so empty and generic and boring. That seems excessive. But I don't think it's a terrible point. Look, I don't think it's a terrible accomplishment because what's happening is there's gonna be this kind of justification thing depending on who wins this year, where you know, like a good example, Lebron got hurt that first year, all right, and the second guy didn't come to l A with him, which was a surprise to Lebron, like he didn't think he was gonna go there by himself, and going there by himself and everybody thought, like the front office terrible, and they're like why are they bringing in all these these different guys? Like what the hell is going on, and then look at they get Anthony Davis as a game changer. But the conversation was, well, Lebron doesn't care about winning anymore now, he just wants to make movies. Is if you can't make it? I mean, one of the dumbest, But it happens all the time because it's like as soon as we can label something about you, then we're gonna use it against you, especially if you're just anti that person in the first place. So if he were to win another one, then we would say, Okay, the regular season doesn't matter. But there's other storylines out there, and the two teams that we're talking about, like the Philly embiid Simmons thing I don't think fits, but they still might win. All right. That would be way better for the NBA than Brooklyn winning. Okay, but does that mean that like Embid and Simmons work because it worked out. It's like the Percy Harvin thing with the Seahawks where he brought nothing, they gave up real assets for him, and then it's like, oh, you can't make that kind of move and expect to win, and they still won because it didn't really matter. I mean, that's a little bit different. But I think the Brooklyn one would be, hey, Kyrie knew what he was doing all along, when it's like, actually, Kyrie's hasn't been great to deal with here, Like he's an incredible player, but when you bail from the team and you don't tell people when you're leaving, and then I'll hear people stick up for him, I'm like, you know, in the Kyrie topic, it's two groups. It's those with sources that I think it's lame and those who don't have sources. And here's the difference between Brooklyn and the Heat teams. Lebron And never won a championship, waited, never won o a championship. Kyrie has a title, Duran has a title. Okay, am I gonna like be you know, it's gonna be heartwarming because James Harden went a title. Not really so like for me, this is just a complete If Brooklyn wins, it's just like America is gonna be sitting there like, what's the point of this exactly? That's my take. Just the tone of your voice is like I'm not even telling you you're wrong, it's just they're so bummed out about it. Your pre depressed about this outcome that I'm I'm just find no, no, I'll be rooting so hard for all the you know, I listen, I would love to see the Lakers winning because I I think Lebron going there and winning it again just to shut some people up would be nice. But I'd be happy with Philly winning it. I'd be happy with Milwaukee winning it, you know, some something new. Yeah, I can't wait because I don't know that we've had a top this deep. And maybe the Lakers embarrassed us all again for thinking everybody else has a chance. But and you know, I'm not going to forget how terrible they were offensively when the bubble opened up and I was talking to somebody the other day. They were like, if you were around that team leading up to the playoffs, you would have never thought that team was winning a title. And then Rondo ends up making every shot and they smoked through everybody. And you know, I wouldn't say it's the murder row of of opponents, but everybody was down there dealing with the same circumstances and they just plowed right through everybody. So they deserve all the credits. So I'm not trying to um diminished the accomplishment at all. But now in the league that we usually feel like it's it's two or three teams, they're legitimately gonna win the title. And I think we were so locked into the Miami years, the Golden State years, in the Cleveland years, I mean that was almost a decade before it was over. And we also were kind of like, oh, well, who's everybody's third guy. We were obsessed with who the third guy was because of Miami, Golden State, in Cleveland, and then we realized that, wait a minute, nobody else has a third guy, So maybe the Lakers don't need a third guy, but now the Nets have their third guy. Yeah, right, right, Well, Flake Griffin has been revitalized. He has, but that was kind of ridiculous, And I love Blake for his quote was like, hey, I thought I sucked, like and now I'm awesome. What is it? Because he wasn't awesome, but he has been re energized. But he's a role player. So there's a comment thing about Brooklyn and Detroit, but since I'm from The York, I don't want to say it because then I'll just be an asshole. But you could see you could see why Blake might be revitalized a little bit. I don't think Blake Griffin going from l A and dating Kendall Jenner to being stuck in Detroit was good for him. I would think I would think Detroit would have been perfect for him. He's just lock in. You know, Blake doesn't want he's a stand up comedian. He's gonna be locked in. He's not just a basketball player. Now there's more going there's more going on. He's he's an impressive guy. He really is very funny. I mean, like his stand up it's a famous one on YouTube, is very funny. Have you have you ever seen it? No? But I stand up, I've got to check it out. I've thrown off because I hadn't eate Bargotzian and I pitched him jokes and it went horrible. So I've just I've taken a break from stand up in general. Yeah, it's that's that's another thing I miss and you know that I missed that more than ball games too. Is going to stand up comedy club. Need to do that soon without a mask? All right? Um, I had to get that in again. I'm so sick of the mask well vacinated. Um, I appreciate you coming on. Do you have any do you have any any thoughts you want to get out there before we wrap up? I talked a lot too. No, No, I I'm pretty long winded, so I'm used to being solo a lot. That's good. That's good. No, Look, there's there's probably a few things, but we'll we'll leave those on the table for another day, save those for another time, save those for another time. So well, have fun just talking about sports. Let's, you know, stay out of trouble. And uh, everything's coming back to normal. So that's good out there in California, is it? I mean, do you feel like things are coming back to normal? Yeah, because I know it's still time with Newsom. Everyone hated all the restrictions. Is it better? Yeah? I mean it was pretty stricted out here for a really long time. I mean they even closed the beaches for a while, which you know, people were like, what, like, I can't you know, but in the beginning when you didn't really know, Like I had no problem with restrictions when people didn't know. And I'm not saying I have problems with no. Look, I just like I said in the beginning. I tried not to complain, you know, throw a mask on. It's not that fucking hard. Yeah, And I think what's happening here is a quicker version of a rollout. So, you know, even a couple of weeks ago, it's still felt like pretty much locked down, and a couple of people want to come out and visit, and I was like, look, it's just not it's it's a great town and we can go to the beach, but beyond that, it's it's takeout food, you know, And I've only left Manhattan Beach once in a year, so um, go ahead, No, I was saying, let's end with this because it just hit me. I had your old partner s VP on a few weeks ago and we were talking about our COVID pet peeves, just the societal rules that are going on, and he brought up how he's sick of the one way aisles in the supermarket. He thinks it's time we go back to like two way aisles in the supermarket. Give me what do you have and we could end it on that is there and I mentioned how, like you, I gotta target out here by my house where they have it's massive, So there's two entrances, one on each side, and one has been closed during the whole pandemic. Why can't that entrance be open? Now, I don't understand, makes no sense. He didn't like the two the one way aisles in the supermarket. I mean, if you guys knew, if you guys knew, how like setting his ways? And he is one of my best friends in the world. And I'm always proud of both of us because we have some real similarities and some also like real differences, which was always kind of funny because the beginning of the show, they're like, are these guys too much alike? And then after a while they were like, actually, they're pretty different, and yet we saw a lot of the sports things the same way. But we still whatever. But I'm just telling you, like being on the road with him and knowing that it's like it has to be this way. Just the idea of him being mad about non two way aisles in the grocery store, Like I just know how mad he must get for fifteen seconds where it's an insane fucking rage which doesn't make any sense, and then even he will go okay, And I noticed it because I can have those moments too, so my pet Peeve would be very A couple of days after we taped the pot, I was in the supermarket and I took a picture of the arrow on the one and I texted it to him and he was He just wrote back like atrocious or something. It was pretty funny. But throughout all of us, I've been like, okay, fine, like it's it's one way. I was like, it wasn't you. Not to complain is a good attitude to have, that's for sure. I didn't have kids driving me crazy. I didn't have to home school. I don't have a wife that's worried. I knew, you know, I was lucky. The work part was not going to be something. So I just knew how many other people were struggling, especially in our business, you know what I mean, Like it bumps me out every time that there's a stretch of people that lose lose their gig because I don't know, I'm gonna get you to I'm gonna get you to complain about something. What about like the gym I'm gonna give you. Well, I put a squat rack in my garage, so I liked it way more than I thought. I was gonna like it. But then I was like, dude, your home, you don't do anything, Like all you're doing is home. Yeah. Right, And then I was like, how come my knees hurt so bad? I was like, oh, because you're doing all of this all the time, and I went really heavy. Um. I was trying to prove a couple of things to myself at an older age, and I would tell the people out there, like, don't start trying to push your limits twenty years past your prime. But I'm an idiot, So here's what I'll offer up this in l A. It was great, Like when the tournament opened up. You know, those first few days in the n A tournament are just awesome. And I had gotten a little run in and I go, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go get some tacos right by the pier and I'm gonna watch the games. This is unbelievable. Like I can sit outside and I can just angle it in Like I had my spot picked out. I knew where I was gonna see myself. I'm like, this is perfect. I'll even wait for the right see, I'm gonna watch like I'm just gonna eat some tacos and watch like an hour college basketball. I'm gonna paformal again. It's incredible. And I show up there's a line and I was like, all right, no doubt, beautiful sunny day. Here again hot spot and I go, can I get something, you know, towards the TV. And the guy's like, oh, we can't have the TVs on? And I went what he goes, yeah, we can't see DC Like we can't have I was like, wait, you can have indoor outdoor seating now for syme capacity inside, but you can't put the TV on. And it's not because they don't want a congregation? Is that why they didn't want to come on? So there you go, Jimmy, we got there. We eventually got there for you. I thought. I was like that one feels a little excessive, and the the restaurant that would yeah, I would have went full Larry David if that was if that was me for sure. Yeah, that's because where's the common sense. That's really what it all comes down to. Yeah, I'll leave you with this. I'll leave with the TVs are not allowed because it that's like, you know, because like they had the restrictions here when they closed things at eleven and you know, a lot of the joke was, you know, you don't get COVID after eleven PM, Like where's the common sense? I think, like anything when it's new, and it's in the beginning. Um, and look, the New York Times kind of somebody from the New York Times lit into me because of that too. I had a hard time with everybody being a virus expert two weeks in so so that was I was like, look, I'm not telling you, I'm not wearing a mask, I'm not telling you I know it, But why do you think you're an expert on all of this stuff? And I go, there's a very good chance that a couple of years removed from this, we're gonna look back and say, oh, maybe we could have done this or whatever. But in the meantime, like I wasn't complaining about anything we had to do. My biggest turn off was maybe everyone else. And I'm like, you know, you went to you mass like when did you what do you what did you mean? You made your political science Like I'm the same as you are, like and I'm not pretending to be like this expert on all this stuff. It's that part of social media probably drove me crazy a little bit. But well, it's like the people now who don't want to get vacinything go. I don't know what's in it. You don't know what's in anything that's in your body. What are you talking about. It's not like any medicine. You don't know what's in the medicine. I know what I have inside of me, desire, passion. That's all you need. That's all you need. I appreciate it. It was fun and hope, so take care of be well and enjoy the nets. Winning the NBA title, I think you're onto something. I think you should just write it. Absolutely. I want to. I'm gonna reach out to you the night they win the Title's gonna reach out to you, gonna ask you how you feel about good. I want you to just tell everybody how pre miserable you are on this one. I am. I'm very There's no let's say, Louise, all right, take care, I appreciate it, all right. Joining me now one of the actors from one of my all time favorite shows, in the Office, Kevin Malone. He is now a podcast extraordinaire when it comes to the Office Brian bound Gardner. Brian, how's it going. It's going great? How are you? I'm well, I hope you don't mind it. I know this is really douche, but I wore a boom roasted shirt for the roasted. I haven't dunder Mifflin shirt that every office fan has, but you know, I figured something a little different, the blue one, the blue dunder Mifflin shirt. Yep. And I thought about I thought about doing the pod and the dunder Mifflin robe that I have. Now I can't. We're on YouTube here if you're listening, this is a terrible experience. But I can't find a logo. Unbelievable. This is there, It is there. It is you guys got every year. But I avoided the robe. But I thought that would be too embarrassing. Well not for me, maybe maybe for you. Did you guys get to keep those robes when you got him as part of the show, um you know corporate those? Yeah, no, we had to. We had to give those back. I think that was one of those well we might need to use them again, and of course we never did, um no, but we we definitely have a lot of dunder Mifflin swag. But I don't know. I I don't. I don't ever wear it, which is a shame because I have some really cool nice stuff, some hats and sweatshirts, and but I don't know. It kind of feels like if you're a professional athlete, like wearing your jersey or something like look at me, this is what I wear when I work. I don't know. I I usually don't do it. I think it's one of those things like you can you can do it once on some special occasion. I think it would go viral and people will get a huge you can't do it regularly. I think that's that might be the issue there. Yeah, I was, I did see um. I actually posted this on social media because I found it so funny. I was at the airport and had this very strange experience where there was a group of people clearly meeting someone that we're all wearing Scott's Tots shirts like like that looked like the Scott's Todd shirts from the show, and they had all these signs and I was like, did I drive? I think I drove my own car here? Why are they all like? What is? Because they were also innocuous, just office related signs but a bunch like I don't know, ten twelve people and I just kind of walked by them looking and I was like, yeah, they're clearly meeting someone else. And then I posted because I thought how funny that they had no idea that I was watching them. And that's standing. That is that, you know, you mentioned a lot of dunder Mifflin swag. You know, I don't have knowledge of it, because I'm not that smart, but the whole memorability thing is exploded over the pandemic, and um, you know, not just cards, trading cards have exploded, but all memorabil You now like you might have something there that you know, could uh be worth some good bucks? Oh some oh some old dunder Mifflin memorabil. Yeah, there there's some stuff, you know. I don't know. I They released some bobble heads of us, and I know it was probably from my mom buying like all the available bubble heads or something, but my original bobble head, which they had sold as limited edition, sold out very quickly for whatever reason mine did, and so NBC was like, I guess we have to do a totally different one. So it's like one of them. I was holding him and m's and want something else would But I have a few of those just and I don't even know what I'm gonna do with them. I don't have them up in my house, but I don't know. Maybe someday we'll do something charity. Um. Yeah, it's crazy. The memorabilia thing has exploded over the course of during the pandemics. So you know, the original teapot or the original dundee. I mean, I'm sure that stuff could get a ton of money. Um. I mentioned you. Um, you're currently hosting the Office Deep Dive podcast. You previously hosted The Oral History of the Office, and I want to get into all that. But you are a big sports fan. This is the sports illustrative media podcast. You, if I'm not mistaken, are good friends with Aaron Rodgers. The biggest story in all of sports right now is Aaron Rodgers. How did you first find out he was unhappy in Green Bay? Was it with the rest of us before the draft or did I don't want you to give personal details, but did you have a hint he was unhappy in Green Bay? How did it come about for you? Uh? Look, I think that if you were following this closely at all, Listen, how I'm going to answer your question by not answering it. Um. You know, I think that Green Bay set a situation up um by the pick in their draft last year, and that was a decision that however you look at it, I think anyone in that building now realizes that that was not a good decision. And I say that simply because of how rookie contracts work, Like at a certain point, you have a guy who has said he wants to play, and clearly, by definition he had an MVP season last year that he's not going to to want to that he's going to want to continue playing beyond when you must start playing the guy that you've drafted, just based on how rookie contracts work. And so that decision last year put a series of things in motion. That is where we are today. And I think that, you know, some decision has to be made and they elected, they being the Packers elected, or no decision was made this offseason until this point. And I think if you examine all of those factors what's going on right now, it should not be surprising. You have a guy who wants to play, and essentially the situation as it currently stands in Green Bay is that he will not be playing by their choice. He will not be playing in Green Bay his entire career. And as soon as you put that together, I mean, you're you're not going to be playing here your whole career. Well, then I think you're you're forced to look at other options. What's interesting about that, though, is this was the case before last season, and then of course he has the MVP season team goes to the NFC title game. So I think fans are maybe having a little trouble with the timing of it. Well oh, um, I mean I can't I can't speculate about any of that. UM, but I think that you know, people are um. First of all, I think at least, and maybe it's just the ones that have talked to me, I think that fans who are have seemed remarkably understanding understanding of of his side of the position, just based on all the information. I think, you know, people want to equate it to the Brett fire situation and talk about that that being the culture in Green Bay. I think that there are some UH distinct differences that that exists than and now, which um, the primary one being UH the year before UH or or the year that the draft pick was made, they made the NFC Championship game, and based on everybody's opinion, they just needed a couple of pieces um too at that point supplant the fort Now, the forty niners obviously had a ton of injuries and they were decimated this last year, so they were kind of not not in the running. But that I think that's a distinct difference that if what you if you're in the business of winning championships and you are that close in that moment, don't you go for it? That's at least, you know, I was just talking to somebody about a different subject. If you make a decision in sports, and let's just say you're at a sports bar. You're at a gathering with people who are fans of multiple teams, or if if if teams are if one team is playing another team, and there are fans of both teams there. When other people think that the decision that you made, fans of other teams think the decision that you made, they're happy about that, then you probably made the wrong decision. And my guess is is that the teams who were close this last East year or before when the Packers made the decision they did in the first round of the draft last year. The other teams were probably pretty happy about it. Yeah, it was. It ended up becoming a very complicated situation. Um, do you do you think he'd actually retire? I mean, here's the thing. He hasn't spoken publicly about any of this. He did acknowledge at the Kentucky Derby on Saturday to Mike three of NBC that he was upset that the riff got out and became made public. The reports though that he is not, under any circumstances going to be a Green Bay Packer September when the season kicks off. Do you think he'd actually retire because he's still in the you know, as great years left. I can't speculate on the reports that are out there that I have. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't want you to tell me if whatever he has said, But does he do you have that relationship with him where he's talking to about the situation. We talked on occasion about what's going on in our lives. But you know, I I can't speculate or comment on the specifics of stories that have come out that aren't verified by him or anybody else and cool though that you're in on the ground floor of this whole mess. I you know, I obviously we have a long relationship at this point. Now, I you know, I care about him and and ultimately want the best for him, and you know, I, you know, I think the thing, the thing that really I can speculate or I can comment about, is just I well, look, I think that, as I said before, I think that people that are in what is it one Packer Way or whatever in the offices at lambeau Field, I think that the decision that was made last year was not a good decision. So what what how what happens from that decision that was not good? Someone has to admit that a really bad decision was made. I mean, you don't draft a quarterback if you have to have the current m VP. Right. Well, but at that time he wasn't. Then he went on Devin m v P a year after that, which it shows you, you know, he was able to really you know, put any anger aside and then have the year he had. So you know, listen, the flip side of that argument is isn't it time he got over the fact that the Packers drafted Jordan's love. I don't, you know, I'm not a pro athlete, so it's hard for me to say, like, if that's you know, you'd think listen m v P NFC title game. You have Davante Adams, you have a good running back, and Aaron Jones like, let's load it up and go for it again. I see that argument, and I could see, you know, Rogers, I don't think it's that aligned for him to want. You know, one of the rumors is he wants some input into personnel. I think that's fine. When you're a quarterback that good, I think you should have some input. But I got a lot of time to see how this plays out, because you know, season didn't start for where are we may the one thing, the one thing that I would say again, just to circle back to what I kind of already said before, I think that the idea or the speculation that all of this is about him being mad that they drest like he should get over that, and I don't. I really don't view it as that. I think I view it. I think I view it as they're the Packers are in a position where, based on that draft pick, they have to make a decision I mean, right, they have to make a decision or they've literally wasted their first ground pick. They have to make a decision, and no decision has been made, which means that the Packers are signaling that he will not be there as long as he wants to keep playing, which, by the way, Tom left, Joe left, Brett left. I mean that happens. But once that happen, once that decision is made, then you know they have to have to figure it out. Did you have friendship with I just start when he did the guest spot on The Office? Did you know him before that? We were friends before that? Okay, oh that's interesting. Did you help get him that guest spot that he did? Yes, yes, and we discussed that. Uh, he came on, Uh, he came on the podcast The Office Deep Dive. We did up. We did a special fan episode on our our sweet sixteen, uh, the anniversary of our pilot premiering. He had a bunch of other guests on talking about the show. And yeah, he and I became friends, um the summer before he started as the starting quarterback of the Packers. So you guys go back away back then. So yeah, so we've known each other now for for a long time, and it was it was fun. The that script specifically was scripted as a as a professional athlete as a judge, and there was someone else who was who was scripted in there. And we did the table read and I went to our producers and I was like, hey, you know Aaron Rodgers a big fan of the show. I don't know if you would want And they were like, oh, can we get can we? So yes, I I served as a casting director on the show for one role in one episode, so it was another athlete cast already I had And I actually don't I don't actually know the answer, Like, um, I don't know if it was random. I remember uh, and I remember telling him who it was. There was an athlete that had just been scripted. I don't know if that was just a placeholder or if somebody had the idea of this other person. But yes, I give him credit though, because and this isn't a knock on the show in any way. She performed. But I feel like a lot of the die hard superstar fans have come when the show had its run on Netflix, and Rogers obviously was there from the NBC days, So props to him for that UM. Yeah, what you know the show? You know on Twitter, it's just you know, there's not a minute that goes by with us, and some tweet about the others. Who has been Give me some one or two celebrities that you've found out a big fans of the Office. That kind of blew you away. Obama, that's a good one. What how did that come about? Is there a story there about I can't remember. I think a letter may have been sent to Greg Daniels. I think he mentioned to me he may have a letter of his UM. I remember actually and this was not Obama. I can't remember when that when that came about. UM. But I'm a big fan of and and and don't really know I've met him now subsequent to this. But Aaron Sorkin, I'm a huge fan of his and West Wing and all his movies, and his writing is great. He actually very early on UM. I've never actually, this is the story I have never told. I don't know if others have. He wrote like a beautifully written love letter to the show and what we were doing and what we created, and that UM was posted to the wall. Uh. There were some other pictures of people, you know, almost like a you know, a scrap book in a yearbook or whatever, you know, pictures of crew members and cast you know, different places or whatever. But that that letter was posted there, um for quite a while, and I read that multiple times, um a lot of the sports guys. I mean, that's how you know. I may have told you this story before, but I always sort of joke like, I'm a I'm a fan of cocktails, and I'm a fan of charity, but the whole like charity cocktail party circuit that wasn't really my thing, and that sort of just you know, flippic conversation or what you know, casual brief exchanges. And so really how I really got into golf In a way. I loved golf, but I started doing like charity golf tournaments and feeling like the connection that I could make with you know, the three or four people in my foursome for charity was just way more valuable and way more fun for me doing activity and doing that. And then I started getting invited to like the American Century Championships in Lake Todhle, which is like where I met Aaron Um. But you know, Steph Curry was a big fan of the show. Um, you know, and a lot of retired athletes as well. They are either fans of the show or their kids there. You know, older kids are fans of the show where they watched with their older kids. So you know that for me, is is really fun guys in the in the sports world who are are fans of the show. And I've gotten to know because of that. You mentioned a little bit a few minutes ago about the anniversary of the pilot was recent a couple of weeks ago. I was I write a daily column press i dot com, and I'm very lucky in that I get to do some stuff outside of sports, and I always try to find a video and anniversary something like that, and I'm just doing it Friday morning, and I came across the fact that it was the anniversary of the famous chili opening scene. Were you Were you aware Friday was an anniversary for that. You know, yes, only because someone contacted me because they were writing like a my my office or my podcast is called the Office deep dive, and uh, this reporter wanted to do a deep dive into that episode and sort of how it was constructed. And so I found out, um that that that was last Friday. But I funny thing is there's a meme that circulates, and I think it just circulates every once in a while. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like, you know, ten years ago today this happened, you know, billed or something picture of it. I think it just kind of recirculates on random days. So I never really put together when it was, but yes, I heard that that just happened. One of the things I find anialing about The Office is as a die hard viewer who's seen the episode repeatedly, is you know, sometimes you don't realize, at least I don't the opening scene, which is you know, a staple of the Office, and like what episode it connects, Like I didn't realize that Chili was with Casual Friday, which is a great episode in and of itself. I mean just seeing everyone come to the office in there casual close was was really great. So like, you don't realize those are connected sometimes, which is which is interesting, right. I mean that was when eventually, when we feel like we found the form of the show, like how it worked the best that we were going to start, um, you know, with a with a we called it the cold open, right, like we just the show starts, we start, and we're in something. And the idea was, you know, the narrative on the show is so important, not only you know, to the writers, not only within the episode, but often on the office. There are we call them, like many arcs, so like three four or five six episodes together Michael Scott's paper company, or a dress Elba coming in as boss or you know whatever, all of these different things, um, that would exist like that, and the cold open just allowed and part of the form was in general, uh, an episode exists in one day, right, so the day starts and the day is over at the end of the episode. Not all, but but a lot um. And what the cold opens allowed us to do was just you know, we were always in different clothes, so it wasn't supposed to confuse anybody that it was a different I was always a big thing, especially if we were shooting little segments back and forth. Gotta go change clothes, could change back. Um. But that that was just a moment that existed outside of the narrative. So a lot of the Gym and Jim and Dwight happened, right like white desk goes and is set up in the bathroom at one point, or is made of wrapping paper or you know whatever, So not have to tie in what is some or the chili a big physical gag that would have to exist throughout the rest of the narrative of the episode. Just logically, how do you all of you guys start your work day in the office when the carpet is covered in chili? That's correct? Um, But yeah, I mean that. I mean there's not a day that goes by the way. I don't see that gift. It's pretty crazy. Um. So with the Office Deep Dive, how is that different from the Oral History of the Office. I know on the Deep Dive you do have a cast made or producer or someone from the ship. You do an interview on each episode, But what any other differences between the two and the current one? Is the Office Deep Dive? For those of you you haven't checked it out yet, you should tell us about that. Yeah, well, it's it's actually re really really simple. We um, we decided to put together a podcast which was the oral history of the Office, and the idea was and if you haven't heard that, um, it's great. But also it's it's edited up we're telling a story, so starting at the beginning and going through to today, like and really examining why the show is today the most watch show in television, including new shows, like by every metric that you can figure out, streaming and otherwise, and really the second placed show isn't very close based on the numbers. And so we were really examining how the show was constructed, put together, casts that were hired, writers that were brought in, Like why were all of those decisions? How have they contributed to where the office now stands today? This was just an interesting question to me. It was as simple as that. And the idea was to go back and talk to as many people as possible. We'll do these interviews and will cut them up and tell the whole story. So in in one forty minute episode, you hear from twenty people or whatever. Well, you know, we sat down. The very first interview that I did for that was with Rain Wilson and every him, not just him, but a lot of people. Um. What I found was they were so enthusiastic and interested and engaged in exploring this question and going back now that it's been seven eight years and really, you know, Steve Carrell ten years since he's been on the show and really talk about it, like really like talked in depth about it. So the first interview I did was with Rain Wilson. It was over two hours, and I went like, I'm doing the math. I'm not great at math, but a joke, but I'm going like, Okay, we're doing We're telling the story in twelve episodes. There are forty minutes each, Like, how much of this interview is going to be in this story as we're telling the story twenty minutes like like there's just not there's not that much time. And so immediately what I said was, well, we've got people will this. These are amazing like what people are saying, and sometimes we go off topic a lot of times it's the humor like jokes that we're making band between us doesn't really fit when we're having a very small amount of time to tell just the story of the office. So we decided very quickly, Okay, well when we when we finished telling the story, we're gonna go back and we're going to release the interviews so people can can really hear from these people. Um, you know, I talked for a really long time with Steve Carrell, who we had not spoken who who does not speak about the show very often, like it doesn't do a justice to the amount of time he gave. Plus this information is people want to hear this. So that is why we have the Office Deep Dive, which is yeah, it is is we are doing some new interviews as well, people we couldn't get before because of the pandemic, uh you know, out of town shooting or whatever. So so there aren't new quote unquote, but they're all new for everybody. Um, because we're you're hearing stuff that you you haven't heard before. It's it's great because one of the things I love is that, you know, I get the impression a lot of times in TV sometimes actors don't like to harp on past shows that they've done. And anytime I see someone from the Office doing an interview, you know they're on Late night Kimmel or whatever. You know that you guys also genuinely seemed to just be so positive about it and don't mind talking about it, which I like as a fan. Um, so that's good to see. So you get all those interviews on Brian's Office Deep Dive podcast, So check that out. One thing I'm curious about I'm always curious about this with TV. I'm a big Sinefeld guy, Curb guy, and Larry David and Jerry talked about it so off and I'm curious with the office when you guys first started. I don't know how it evolved throughout the years once you know, you establish yourselves. But I'm fascinating about, like the networks get involved with notes and you should do this, you shouldn't, you know? I know, you know, Jerry always says that NBC wanted Jerry and Elaine to be a couple on this show. Is there anything you can tell us? I don't know, you know how involved you are as the actor in terms of the producers get the notes, the actors get the notes. But is there anything NBC early on didn't like wanted to see what was like feedback like from that standpoint? Well, uh, I mean this might be a slightly cynical view, but or not cynical. But you know, we were such a ratings disaster, and the expectation for the show early on was this show is very short lived, right, um? And I think there was always a thinking, a thought that nobody wanted to get maybe too invested in it because it was there might be some stint that that emulated from them. Um, I mean that's not entirely true or entirely fair fair. There were network executives that were around that were a part of it, most specifically Kevin Riley, who fought dramatic I mean, he's now our hero. I interview him on the show. We all love Kevin because without him fighting for us at the network, on the upper echelons of the network, we never would have survived. I believe that totally. But in terms of like getting noted to death, um, you know, Greg, Greg might have a different answer, but I think we were. We were left alone to a large degree. And then as the show became popular, I think one Greg had really established himself as the leader and the visionary for this show that was so different, and I imagine there was a feeling of well, we got it to this point, now, why are you getting involved now? Now? I know there were big, big conversations at certain points, most famously being the network really want what we aired after the super Bowl, which was cool for me as a football fan. Um, airing after the super Bowl, they were like, you have to have a big star on the show. And at that point we didn't have big stars on the ship, you know, other than the ones who were on the show who would become big stars. We didn't bring in big stars. It was like, why is this person in Scranton, Pennsylvania. That makes no sense? Um. Later on things changed a little bit um, But at that time there was a huge like, it's a it's the post super Bowl, you've gotta have Brad Pitt or somebody show up at dunder Mifflin um. And they creatively figured out a way to have a couple of comedy legends on there. But but they never appeared at dunder Mifflin. So some things like that, but I think they buy and large kept out of the way. And part of that, also in zing about that, is that we were we were filming at a very small independent studio in the middle of the valley. Had we been on the NBC Universal lot um, that may have been different, Yeah, but it was. It was a car ride away deep into the valley um to get to us, and so most people didn't. I'm smiling throughout your answer because that episode after the Super Bowl Stress Relief is my all time favorite office episode and ended with Boom roasted. So it all comes full circle. Um, what do you make you know? There's this trend which I know, I just I don't get it, but of going back and either editing out some scenes that don't fly now but we're fine, you know. I mean, I think even Comedy Central, I don't they don't air the Benny Hunna Christmas episode anymore because there's some stuff in there. It's all been out there, it's on DVD, it aired on NBC, it's been and now some of the stuff gets cut out. As someone in the show, What do you feel about that? Well, I think that I think that's uh. I think that's PC gone awry. I think that's taking wokeness a little too far. I mean that that's my view because I think what I think it's really dangerous to say you can't say something, and because look not Steve Girl, Michael Scott, which this is an example, would say really inappropriate things that a reasonable person today would say, you can't say that, right, you can't say that. However, this is fifteen or twenty years ago, and when he would say something inappropriate, the camera would pan around to the office and everyone would be livering the message. You can't say that. You can't say that, and so a character is saying something that is inappropriate, but everyone is telling us that that's in the reason that it's written that way is to show that you should not talk that way. And so by saying a character and television can't speak in a certain way or do a certain thing, even if you're explaining why that's bad, that makes no sense to me. I'll give you another example, because now I'm on a roll. Well that you know, we had to do a sexual harassment seminar for NBC. Every year we had to do a sexual harassment seminar, and there were people from NBC Universal who would come from HR and do a sexual harassment seminar with cass crew everybody on the show. That was a mandated thing. They would show clips from the office to show what not to do to us. But the point is that it's very meta. It is a teaching lesson though right like it is doing that. And I think in conclusion, I used to they're used to my parents friends. There were some friends of my parents they couldn't watch The Office. Oh he's just too terrible, he's what he said. It's just uncomfortable, and I said, I remember saying to my mom do they do they watch c S? I? Oh, yeah, they watched it. They watched I was like, okay, okay. So seeing a half naked, sometimes fully naked young woman lying in the desert murdered, which is how most episodes began, is totally fine to see. However, hearing a boss at a paper company say something that maybe hits a little too close to home makes you uncomfortable. There's something culturally wrong about that. And what I hate about it, And this is I guess on me more than anyone. I hate now sometimes when I watched the show and I'm watching it and I go, oh, they that would that would they couldn't do that today. They couldn't do that. That's not how I want to watch that, you know. To me, one of the great one of the great scenes is when Pam shows up one morning with classes on and Michael Scott's like, Pam, you don't look hot at all the classes, You're not even trying anymore. That that would cause, like you know, such a panic in this country these days. And it's like, like you said, that's on the Michael Scott character. I don't know why we need to go back. You know, it's been done. That's what I don't like about it. I get, you know, you want to not do any of that stuff now. It totally makes sense, obviously, it's but it happened already, So what does taking it out do? That's what That's what I can't grasp. Yeah, but that's a downer to end on. Um. Yeah, I don't end on a downer, give me, you know, I don't have Have you seen when the pandemic first started, You know, there were a lot of people who tried to do like, you know, what would the Office be like during the pandemic? What would signfel And I'm thinking about I was thinking about this when I was thinking about something they ask you know, the Office could do a great episode with Michael Scott with the vaccine and Michael trying to get an appointment, Michael trying to convince maybe an anti vax or in the office. I mean, have you checked out any of that stuff that's gone on over the picture yet? Like on YouTube, there's some pretty funny things where they clipped together. This one, I know, I saw it. They clipped together. Dwight had a lot of lines that fit into pandemic life and it made for a good video. Yes, no, there was certainly a lot of that stuff, and I I think some of my favorite speculation would have been, what would an office episode have looked like? I don't know that we could have done a season. What an episode would have looked like with everybody working from home? I think that we could have had some fun with that. What would Kevin? What would Kevin do during with Kevin be? With Kevin get the vaccine? Would he need someone to explain to him why he should get the vaccine? Well, he would probably definitely need someone to uh explain this is off the top of my head. Uh, someone to explain to him exactly why he should get the vaccine, and uh then likely someone like Pam explaining to him that once he got it, he would be given a cookie. I think he probably would have been there. That's perfect. That's a much better ending to this because that actually makes sense. Um. I appreciate you coming on. UM it's the office Deep Diving podcast, lengthy interviews with old cast members and behind the scenes people, Apple, Spotify, It's on everything everywhere wherever you get your podcasts. Perfect. Yeah, thanks a lot. Brian, appreciate it. Stay safe alright. That wraps it up, big, big episode, long episode. Hope you stuck around for it, Hope you enjoyed it. Give me some feedback on Twitter if you listened, would love to hear what you guys thought of. Both guests had a lot of fun and my thanks to Ryan or Still and Brian baum Gardner. If you're not a subscriber, if this is your first time listening or your periodical listener, if you could subscribe, that helps tremendously. Hit the subscription button for the SI Media Podcast and check out some past episodes in the archives. Last week John Odran and to Keep to Leave was a good show. Two weeks ago on on Verke talking about getting the job as Monday Night Raw play by play man and having a career after ESPN was very good. So check those out the archives and please again subscribe again. Thanks to Ryan Sill'brian Bambtner. Thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next week right here on the SI Media podcast. Stay Safe, Take care,

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Every week on the Sports Illustrated Media Podcast, host Jimmy Traina sits down for an informal conv 
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