Dan Le Batard on His ESPN Tenure, New Venture

Published Oct 13, 2022, 8:00 AM

Episode 410 of the "Sports Illustrated Media Podcast" hosted by Jimmy Traina features a conversation with radio legend Dan Le Batard.

Le Batard talks about his time at ESPN, why he had to leave the company, the ups and downs he had there over the years and the generous move ESPN made when he left. Le Batard also discusses going out on his own, why he partnered with DraftKings, having such a loyal, rabid fan base, why he hates sports debates, Stephen A. Smith's status at ESPN and much more.

The podcast closes with the weekly "Traina Thoughts" segment with Sal Licata, from WFAN and SNY in New York. This week, Jimmy and Sal discuss the MLB postseason, Bob Costas calling a playoff series for TBS, the Davonte Adams shoving a cameraman and Troy Aikman's controversial comments. The duo also give out a weekly NFL "best bet."

Welcome everyone to the SI Media Podcast. I am your host, Jimmy Trance. Thanks for listening. Big show today, first time ever on the SI Media podcast. Wanted the Legends, Sports Broadcast Things, Sports Radio, Dan Leabatar. Phenomenal conversation with Dan about his career this time at ESPN, is new venture and a bunch of other stuff in between. Excellent, excellent conversation with Dan Libertard. I enjoyed doing it. Hopefully you guys enjoy listening to it. Salacata train of thoughts follows the LeBatard interview, where our weekly segment, We've got some NFL best bets. I'm five and oh so you might want to get on the bandwagon, and uh, talk about a bunch of the topics in the news. Here the Bob Costas calling the Yankees Guardian series. We get into the Davante Adams situation, pushing the fan um and uh, the Troy Aikman situation, Jeff passon all that controversy. So cover that with sal in train of thoughts before we get to the episode. Quick reminder if you missed any recent episodes, they're in the archives. Check them out, subscribe to the SI Media podcast and give us a review on Apple. H M M A journalist w W journalist Ariel Hawani was on the show last week. Brian Curtis from the Ring of two weeks ago, which I sen three weeks ago, Andrew Marshan four weeks ago, Al Michael's five weeks ago. All right here in the SI Media podcast, subscribe, rate and review. All right, Dan Labatard followed by train of thoughts right now on the SI Media podcast. All right, joining me now, no need for a major introduction. He's one of the biggest players in all of sports media and has been for a long time, Dan labatar Dan, thanks for doing this for the first time. I appreciate it. I'd like you to do that again with a little more enthusiasm, like welcome in the new podcast audience, with a little bit of fanfare. I don't need the you know, the Mets intro and the trumpets and everything, but I want you to have slightly more energy than alright, let's get started, all right, let's see here we go. All right, Joining me now, I'm man who has been a powerhouse sports media for many, many many years now on his own doing his things successfully with Dan Lebotard and friends, the cast of characters entertaining constantly. Dan Lebotard, excellent, Let's try it again without the vague doing his thing. I need more specific than that doing the doing of the thing needs to be more more spectacular, more colorful, more cartoonish. All right, here we go, all right, joining me now one of the major major players, someone with a lot of Paul and all of sports media, fresh off of pissing off Ryan Fitzpatrick and Michelle not that fresh sail off it, but okay, yes recently piste offs that for my tombstone. Pissed off Ryan Fitzpatrick and Michelle Tafoya. Good night, everybody, that's you need to know. That's all you need to Which one of those which one of those interviews? Did you feel the guests misinterpreted your positions and what you were trying to do more. I'm an awkward human being, Jimmy, and my interviews can be awkward, and I came in with both expectations on both of them. I was not looking for a fight in either instance. Uh, and I was surprised both times when a fight emerged. So I guess Fitzpatrick was more surprising because I didn't think he would get upset about a question about a water slide and uh as opposed to Michelle Tafoya, where I guess I, instead of a water slide, just to slide into hell, which is what America has been doing over the last many years. So yeah, both of them were surprising to me. I'm never I am never looking to get into a confrontation for clicks, right, what a slide politics? That does seem to be a little bit of an imbalance there on controversy, Yes, and um, I have just been surprised recently, I guess over the last few years of just how angry the discourse has gotten. I'm not talking about Fitzpatrick anymore. I'm just talking about I don't know why I would be surprised by Michelle Tafoya or that given everything I've been watching, But I'm still somehow the guy who gets surprised in whatever city and Alabama, the viral video was from this weekend, when a white dude is standing on a corner with Black Lives Matter and what drives past him is just car after truck after car of poison and hatred and people spitting bio. I don't know why that would still surprise me. At this point, but for some reason it still does. I want to believe, I want to leave that we can get along a little bit better than we can be divided. But I guess I'm wrong on that one. And on and on top of the division, you also have you know, for example, you know, you have what Kanye West tweeted over the weekend, and like, I look at that, and to me, anyone associated with Kanye West should cut ties with Kanye West. But then if you do that, people scream cancel culture. And it's like, oh, that's not cancel culture. That's him saying you know that he's going to go after an entire religion. It doesn't have to be consequences for that. But if you do that, now it's canceled culture. And then he's the martyr, and you know he's it's already happening because he got kicked off social media. So now he's like this hero because he got I mean, everything is backwards. It's kind of just bizarre. Every day. I see it all the time in ways that are disturbing. Kanye West's anti semitism is the latest and a string of things that could have made people dismiss Kanye West But when you see sort of the general apocalypse surrounding all of us, the fact that we continue to listen to them, the diatribes of a man who is famous and clearly not well, clearly in need of mental health help. The fact that we continue doing this feels not unlike some of the stuff we did with Charlie Sheen when he was proudly claiming that he was winning while descending into drug addiction. But every day something happens that makes me think that I'm living somewhere between the apocalypse and idiocracy. I mean, I'm watching a video this weekend of a baby crowd surfing, just person after person grabbing I don't know how high they were, how drunk they were, grabbing a baby and bringing in on stage to be held by the very famous Rock And why would you do it with a baby because the Rock is so famous? And I just thought to myself, oh my god, that's the pagan ceremony at the end of time. That is that, that is what it would look like if you were feeding a baby to the Rock because he was simply famous. I'd probably do that for the Rock myself, I have to admit. But um, well, I mean We'll get into some other things here, but you're you're you know I mentioned you're on your own, when what I meant by that was you with ESPN for a while, left ESPN, you at your You've started Metal Lark, have this entire network. In terms of blowback from people about your opinions, politics, has you have you found it to be a lot easier to deal with out on your own than when you were with the ESPN. I mean, there was the famous story with ESPN where you got in trouble because you had said things about Trump, who had said people should go back to where they came from, which I found preposterous that you'd get in trouble for that. How freeing is it that you don't have to worry about that now? It is nice not to have corporate overlords. I've never wanted to have corporate overlords. I've always aspired to be my own boss. So now we can say and do what we want. It's one of the primary reasons that I went with DraftKings and not behind a paywall, and not one of these many companies that has a ton of money but has league partnerships with the NFL or anybody else that wouldn't allow me to speak freely. I you know now that almost every decision you make any day can have its compromises or its conflict of interest. From the car you drive to whether you recycle. There are all to who it is that your partners are. I'm sure there are many people out there who would say, look at this guy, former journalist, gasbagging from on high on his sanctimonious platform while working for a gambling company, or you know, they're all sorts of moralities that can apply or be applied, and anybody out there can look at what I'm doing and cast their own judgments. But the reason that we did it was to get maximum freedom because I didn't want to be governed by anyone else's sensibilities. And renting my father's accent was not buying my voice. I'm sure now, when you left ESPN and decided about on your own, I would assume you had many, many offers from different companies. Yeah, we had, we had options that were nice. You know, it's not it was difficult thing to do during a pandemic, but yeah, there were multiple offers because coming out of ESPN, we have a popular thing that that is pretty easy to monetize. Were you at all surprised, even just a little bit of how much your loyal audience followed you after you left ESPN, and how and how good that feels. I can't believe that we get to do any of this. I can't believe that this gets to be a career, that it gets to be a playpen, that I'm fifty three years old, and that any of this is stuff that can be profitable. And yes, I am surprised and always surprised by the allegiance of our audience. But when we were negotiating with ESPN and Jimmy, a lot of people don't understand. They just don't understand the deal we made. But we got our intellectual property, we got our feeds, we were able to go. ESPN could have done a great deal of damage to my career in my business in the early stages of buyout negotiations when the Disney lawyers suggested, well, just pay them all the money and set him just. But that's not the way they wanted to do it. They were willing to do it in a way that was closer to amicable, and they just gave us all our stuff, our feeds. So the next day. This is this. I don't know whether it has a lot of precedent, but it's a pretty unusual thing to go from you just broadcast on somebody else's network the day before, and the next day all your stuff is yours and you can just keep going into the audience that that's specific to this time in this place. And I don't, I do not think that I'm so unique in this market to not be surprised that all of those people came with us, or that any of that was available to us. That's I mean, that was very gracious of ESPN to give you the the feed, because that that could be a thing where companies make a big think about something like that. So well, you imagine, though, if we had just disappeared for eighteen months and the climate of now and the climate of people need instant gratification, they need seven sources and their devices of entertainment, and people who are most addicted to what we do saying that the four hours a day we're doing isn't enough that they want more. So, yeah, it's it's funny you say that because I'm just thinking, I'm thinking about Rachel Nichols, because I mean, I personally thought you gotta a deal on that whole thing. But she was gone for a while and she popped up last week, and you're like, oh, yeah, Rachel Nichols forgot about her, you know, But it does seem like she's the type of person I think you I I don't think, I know you would have been able to do this where she would have been. She's gonna be able to pick up where she left off. I think even with a little break, you would have been able to do I think certain people can get away with it, you being one of them, but you don't. You don't want to be away for that long if you're doing what we do. I don't assume it, though, because this is a very competitive space, and the space I now occupy is a young person space. So I don't simply assume that jumping from that platform, which can make anybody matter. I did not assume that it would just be during a pandemic of all things, when when the content industry as you see it right is uh. You see the struggles of Netflix, of HBO, Max, of the economy of every of you see everything happening in the world right now, and I I am thankful that you think that I would have landed anywhere on my feet fine, but I did not presume that it was very much. It was very jalap of faith and a scary one. Yeah. Well, the a big reason I say that is, as I mentioned earlier, you have a rabbit and loyal fan base. I've actually experienced it a little bit, just you know, whenever I've written about the show or or I've had stugats on the podcast. Um, if you have, if you can offer me and my listeners any tips advice, how do you build? What do you think the secret is to building such a loyal fan base, if you had any advice about that? Okay, so that's a it's a broad question. I believe our authenticity is probably something in there that people enjoy self deprecation and humor. But the people who ride with us most ferociously tend to think I would say, it's not just that they like something or that they you know, this is a very intimate medium, and we can be uh the friends inside your head. It's much different than everything else. It's different than television, it's different than writing. It's even different than radio, although we have some holdovers from radio as well. We exist by your choice, when you're exercising, when you're running, when you're board, when you're at a bad job, when you're lonely, when you're going through a dark time. Uh, none of this answers your question. But there are a lot of places where you can be sticky with an audience because they feel like they really know you, as opposed to just watching something on television or enjoying an experience. Uh. In entertainment, they feel like you're accompanying them during their lives and they feel like they know you a little bit. So when I get asked by and this happens all the time to me, doctors, lawyers are successful people who are like dissatisfied with whatever their livelihood is because they know that beast too well and they'd like to do something different. They look at what we're doing every day and they say, well, I want to do that. I love sports, talking about sports with my friends. That's a hobby that's fun and a lot of people could do it. But that bridge you're talking about to the stickiness of loyalty, of finding an audience and having that audience stay with you. For reasons like this that have nothing to do with entertainment, they saw how we left ESPN. They saw that ESPN let go of my mentors son or a friend of mine's son, and that we hired him back. And when you connect from that place right where they're like, well, Dan's not gonna let Chris Cody be fired. Dan's not gonna less let Chris Cody get gobbled up by the machine. When the connection is there, I'd argue Jimmy that, and I don't. I do not say this with ego. I say it with gratitude, but it's hard to say and not sound like I'm saying it with ego. I don't believe like there's been a whole lot in the history of this medium that has our loyalty, the digraph, the rabid, rabid loyalty that starts somewhere near your soul, that has more to do with the soul than it does with even the ears of the eyes. No, I agree. I think there's only like three or four, you know, entities like that um around, and you guys are in that class. You mentioned ESPN firing Cody. If that doesn't happen, are you still at ESPN. No, there would have been something else that my contract, My contract was about to run up. I think it would have been up this past August. A couple of months ago. There were things shrinking there and we were being confined there in ways that were not not comfortable to me, or that there wasn't enough freedom there. I've never negotiated money, I've never negotiated power. I've negotiated the freedom to do what I want. And so by the end there there wasn't enough freedom something if it wasn't that. But right before that, there was something involving moderation of a Joe Biden in in Miami with Florida Cubans that I wanted to do as a journalist, just as a moderator. There were there were any number of things that we're gonna pop up politically and otherwise that we're gonna make it in in some where they're probably, if not untenable to me, untenable to them. Because I wasn't going to stay quiet over the last two years of what has happened in America just because for some reason somebody wanted me to talk about Francisco Lindor. I don't know how much you're willing to pull back the curtain, but I'm gonna try. I'm just curious towards the end there with ESPN those last couple of years, I guess starting with the with the incident when um Trump said go back to where you came from, and you talked about that. How often was their headbutting with executives at ESPN over content? Was it a regular thing? Was it a once in a while thing? Was it always about politics? Did anything you know, did it ever come up about bashing sports or ESPN or you know media? What was the how? What was the relationship like those last two years? And I mean I generally would say that I come from privilege in this regard, so I have a different relationship with this than perhaps even stephen A. Smith did. I had a lot of conversations with stephen A. Who played the game better with executives than I did, and did a better job of navigating the corporate labyrinth. Because when you say how often was it happening? Once is too much for me? Now that doesn't mean it's that way for everyone. And you've got to eat some ship when you have bosses, But no I don't, and no I won't, and so any amount is too much. And it happened on politics, but it also happened because they've got corporate agreements with Dana White and Rob Manfred and I'm running on the wrong side of those as well, and I don't care that I'm running on the wrong side of those, and other people get in trouble when I run on the wrong side of those, so and any amount would have been too much, and it happened more often than I would have lied. But I don't know that anyone listening to this, or anyone who's worked in this field wouldn't say, well, it quit being a baby. You gotta eat a certain amount of shipped from your boss. That's how it works. Otherwise you'd be your own boss, which is why I am now my own boss right exactly. And it's funny. I I've interviewed a lot of ww wrestlers over the years, and whenever I interviewed a w W wrestler, I asked them for a Vince McMahon's story, because I think he's one of the most unique and fascinating people in the history of entertainment. And multiple times I've gotten stories from them where in dealing with Vince and battling Vince over something whatever it is. Storyline salary Vince. Vince has a line that he often uses, supposedly where he says, sometimes in life you've got to eat ship. So I like the fact that you're saying, no, you don't. There are compromises after. I mean, it took me. I'm fifty three years old, right like, it took me a long time, and I had to do a lot of different things to arrive at what it is I have now, which is thirty employees and a lot of responsibilities and a lot of headaches that I didn't have an ESPN. I've never had employees before. I've never wanted to have employees before. And there are many things ESPN does well, and there are many places that ESPN can protect you. But in the conflict of where America was at the time, and asking me to sit out brown babies and cages at the border, or with my particular past coming from exiles who had to flee for freedom and had to fight for freedom, it was not a birthright. It is front of lobe at all times. You can't ask me to sit out China stuff because you've got theme parks in China. You can't ask me to sit out communism and threats to freedom and threats to democracy when I never wanted to work for the corporate overlord. I never wanted to be beholden to what anyone else's voice was on that front. Yeah, I've written this and I've said this. I thought in your particular case, what I found absurd about that whole situation was, you know, when you're doing radio. I'm not saying this to you. You know radio better than anyone, but when you do radio, it's an intimate medium and it's I think radio, even sports talk radio is more than just sports talk. I mean, I'm I grew up in New York listening to Mike and the mad Dog. If you pulled New Yorkers who listened to Mike and the mad Dog, they loved when Mike and the mad Dog would talk about movies and the oscars more than sports. I mean, it's just this this thing where it's just sports. Now you mentioned your background. I don't understand how any executive, knowing what your background is Cuba, Trump goes on the stage and says, go back to where you came from, and you're on the radio in this personal, intimate medium, and you're just supposed to ignore it. I get where ESPN is coming from in a in a way because they don't they're terrified of Trump and Magan. They don't want the backlash and being on Fox News blah blah. But that happen in anyway. They weren't by stifling someone. It didn't cause them. I mean, they have this reputation, which I think is absurd, but they have this reputation now of being like this liberal network that you know is basically with the Biden administration. I mean, it's just a completely absurd take. But that's what the result is. Even with them trying to stifle you. It just never made any sense to me, just as an outsider who observes media, to ask you not to do it. Given your history background and you're doing radio well. I can make the argument that I was hired to do it and that I didn't change either the company or the country change. But there was very much a change where I fell on the wrong side of corporate policy because I was not to talk about that stuff because the dangerous thing tended to be at ESPN, the setting of precedent that if I get to talk about it, then you've got to allow somebody else to talk about And this goes back to like Dan Patrick wanting a television in his office when he was hosting the biggest sports show in America, and he was told, no, you can't have one because then everybody's gonna want a television in their office. And it's just it's a better way to not establish presidents is an easier way, uh, to lead. And I was told, I mean you've seen this, Jimmy. They've gone to commercials. They're where it says they're going south here there where. And I love Marty Smith. God bless give me more Marty Smith. I'm here from more Marty Smith. But the idea of commercials when he has used to make the biggest, best commercials and now the commercials are we're going south here on this. Uh. They are trying to get the college football demo, which you can't blame them for great business for him. That why wouldn't they want the college football demo? There in the business of customers, and many of the customers are tired of their analysts slanting things with whatever their politics are. So I I understand why they why Disney, specifically Disney and the fantasy business would say no, thank you do not want those headaches not worth it, your disposable. We'll find somebody else, well, somebody else who does it without the headaches, because we can put on anybody here and make them famous, because we're still the four letters that matter in sports. Yeah. I want to get into what you're doing now. But one last thing, and you know, I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I'm just curious if you take it. Oh yes, okay, you're you're you're here to put me on this. Okay, I'm gonnat now right now standing on the spot I'm waiting here is that you're filled with lies? I'm not all right. Here we go. You mentioned Stephen A. Smith. I'm a Steven A fan. I've become a big fan. I love his performance art. I thought it was fascinating. This has gotten no coverage whatsoever from the people like me who cover sports media. But he's got no coverage. He quietly signed this podcast deal with Cadence, And when I saw it, I said, okay, now that's bizarre. He works at ESPN. He's signing a podcast deal with a different company. Weird. Then I see the the podcast is not about sports, it's about politics. And he's gone on Sean Hannity to promote it and some other places that you wouldn't expect. And I'm like, well, now, how come he's able to get away with that? And I'm not saying it as an anti stephen A. I like stephen A. I just I wonder what the ESPN executives thinking, what the main nations are of all that, that he's allowed to do all this on his own value power. He is somebody that they view as indispensable. And my agent told me, I don't know, it was two or three years ago. He told me, Hey, what ESPN is gonna do. Dan is gonna get rid of all its middle class. They're gonna just have five or six or seven people that they pay really millions and millions of dollars. And now it's in in the time since, by the way, steven A is now underpaid, right because they're giving Troy Hickman all these people more money. Used to be that John Gruden was the highest paid employe at ESPN at six point five million dollars a year. But what's happened with you know, with me, with McAfee, with people who leave and Dan Patrick and Rich Eyes in that you have enough name and enough brand power from being at ESPN that we are now strong enough that stephen A can within the establishment change some of the rules because they realize that they have to give him freedom because of the precedence being set everywhere else, they don't have to. I suppose they could do The New York Times at one point when they saw that ESPN was trafficking in the credibility of newspapers by allowing me and we when columnists were going on ESPN with the newspaper background behind us, and ESPN was buying those newspapers, those watchdogs, because all of a sudden they had journalists on television. The New York Times was one of the few that said, no, you cannot go on ESPN and do that. We need you here. We need to keep you here exclusively. So many of these walls have crashed right now that ESPN can't keep stephen A there exclusively. He's got too much power, too much leverage. He's made First Taken his own show. He's doing what he wants with First Take, and he's a signature personality there who who has done too much for them publicly where you can't help but give him everything that he wants, because what's the point in denying him anything that he wants. So to piggyback on what you said earlier about the President's he's got enough power, way he can set the precedents. Then, basically it seems like it in a new age. But it's all been forced upon ESPN. Right, it's a whole changing climate and everything. Everything is different now. I would have assumed that they would have wanted that under their own banner. But if he has a desire to speak about politics, they're saying you can't do it here. They're actually making the rule of you're not going to set a precedent here, but if someone else pays you for it, and you're willing to take the consequences there, then UM will will allow that. That's a that's a new thing, and I think it's a new thing only for him. I don't know that they're gonna allow some second person to do it exactly. That's why I find it fascinating. But that's just me being a sports media Um, all right, we'll move on from ESPN. He know, I want to talk about what you're doing now, But you this was something I wanted to ask you and you had mentioned it about the times at the time of being a sportswriter. Do you miss writing? No, Writing is lonely, Writing hurts, Writing is not communal. I chose the things that I chose in my thirties because of how hard writing is. I enjoy going back to it, but I enjoy having written. It's fulfilling, it's not enjoyable. You did it for a long time to write I did for about what I've done it. I've done it. I I did it as recently as last week. I am hurt and offended that you you didn't missed it. You didn't go behind the paywall of the moment. You missed it, You asshole. You watch me. I'm gonna go Tafoya and Fitzpatrick on your ass right now. How dare you not be prepared enough to have read everything that I've written over the last ten years. It's it's uh, it's it's bad research on my part. I was I was more into researching the Fitzpatrick in the Tay situations. That that's because you're in this for the clicks, exactly, all right, So let's do this for the clicks. What is your all time worst interview? Zach Randolph and why um because he kind of moaned and grunted his way through it. He was young at the time, he was distrustful, and my awkward playfulness did not land with him. But I've got a few to choose from. I've let's hear it, well, no, I've just created some awkward scenarios where not everyone is here for Hey, can I pryly open your soul and go through some of your dark moments and find where all of your vulnerabilities are? And they're looking at me, like, but I thought I was here for a sports interviewer. What are you doing? What do you what? What do you do when you get pitched the interview? I know you're not booking the interview. I know you have a book, But like when you get a pitch for some one who's a fairly big name, but you know they're pitching like Tide or Gatorade or Sharman or whatever. Do you do those interviews and work in the plugs in your own style or do you would you rather pass on those kind of interviews at this you don't need that bullshit anymore. I tend to pass on the big interview. Who's not gonna say anything? Who I know I've got no chance. I'd like the challenge of a difficult interview or somebody who is reluctant. But I have in the past not not been terribly interested in just having famous person on just because they're famous, to come on and say nothing. Um. I'd rather have the person who is interesting or colorful or might might make for something entertainment entertaining. Who's less famous, Who's been a difficult interview that you thought turned out to be a great interview? Difficult because difficult doesn't mean bad. Difficult means you know, you might have to work to make it a good interview if they're willing to loosen up, you know, maybe midway through the interviewers. I mean, it almost always sort of depends right on. There are so many things that go into an interview. I'm gonna think of one off the side of my head. I can't answer this, as there have been too many of them, but I'm thinking recently, the actor Michael Ian Black was on, and I could tell, after a couple of different questions that I had asked him that he was both bored with my questions and had heard them before. And so what digging myself out of that whole finding the connection points with somebody so that they get past an initial reticence to actually put down the wall and show you something or allow allow you to win them over. Those are those are ones that I enjoy because I do enjoy the challenge of a difficult interview. The problem is when I failed the challenge, all I'm left with Once I fail, like I've been joining the challenge and once it's not going well, next thing, you know, yes, my producer is back here for a Now they're yelling about Kyle Bush or bad Kyle Bush interview, and they say that I do this thing like, I'll give it two or three or four chances on somebody being an asshole to me, and then I'll be the blackjack dealer leaving a table where I physically clap my hands, and I just I will actually do that. I will clap my hands and be done with it because I've tried three or four times to allow you to hit me in the face with a fish because you didn't like my question, and uh, and okay, we're done here. Yeah, I I mean that you that's great that you can just end the interview after three or four questions that that's good power. Right, there are four bad or awkward questions. Yes, well, I mean if someone doesn't want to be here, I don't want that. I'm not interested in Guantanamo situations. Doesn't need to be a water boarding. If you don't want to be here, you can leave. Then't leave. The problem is I can't really leave to me, so I just do the black check table. I do that the hands so that you have the signal that you can leave. But I'm the black jack dealer who does the by gesture and then stay sitting in front of the microphone because I have to be a slave to the to the microphone. I keep thinking of the Dan Patrick interview at Matt Harvey while we're having this conversation where Matt Harvey, what was a qual calm? He put in every single answer that that point that was that was a doozy. You've got to be able to call out these people on these things. Generally, what I tried to do with that, it's not quite as overt as just hey, please pitch this product. We're we're in on the joke with our audience. Audience tends to know when someone here is here just to shill something. So if we can, if we can have fun around the shilling, that's fine. So let's talk about the current show. Um, you know, I really love the format. I mean, you've had this format for a while, but where you just have a cast of people, the mics are open and everyone participates. I mean I grew up as a big Howard Stern fans, so I feel like I that format is ingrained in me as something that's enjoyable. Oh has that always been? Like? You know, you want everyone to get a chance, get more voices in there. What's you know? It could easily just be you and still give me the thought process on the format for your show that works so well. These people who have been with us for a long time are very much a part of the fabric of the dysfunctional family that makes this unlike anything else in sports media. I think part of the connection point is that you don't know where the funny or thoughtful or annoying or obnoxious is going to come from. And the more people that you have knowing how to do what it is that we do, the more help that you have to do it. I'm aging, Stugots is aging. We don't have any particular reason to connect with TikTok or twenty year old. So I rely on these people to keep us young, to keep us vibrant, to keep us guessing. They're all an important fabric. Elm it right, you don't. We have a lot of interesting people around us. One of them is Mike Sure, creator of The Office, Parks and Wreck The Good Place. And he said that they knew at the Office when they had a hit show, when people would come around and say, you know who my favorite character is, Stanley. Stanley, who is the twenty second person they're paying asn't spoken in five episodes because you never know where the connection points are for an audience. I I met somebody the other day what tears in his eyes, been listening to us for I don't know how many years, and was trying to explain to me why it is that he loves the shipping container. The room of producers that have been with us for a long time, and many of them have seen you know, many of our listeners have seen them grow up from kids who now to now having families. And what he said to me is the reason that I love the shipping container is because it feels like I'm in there, like it feels like shouldn't have the microphones. They shouldn't be allowed to have the microphones at the construct of what it is that people in this industry do that they're supposed to be the behind the scenes people and I and I like that. I feel like I'm in there with them. So you just you never know where it is that a listener. There are plenty of our listeners who hate me, don't, don't like to gods. But you don't know. The way that you cast a broader net is by having more voices than just your own. I used to do these things at ESPN. They were just one person essays me Lupaca and album did you know? These floral poetry readings, And very soon they weren't partying shots. They were just something that Sports Center was doing. They were grabbing sports writers and having them write things for ninety seconds. And what came back pretty quickly from whatever their research was was I want to hear more people. I want to hear the other side of this. And then debate television was born from there. I hate debate television. I don't want to do debate television. And Stephen A. Smith, while He's a lovely cartoon character who was a journalist and still has journalistic credentials. He's very much embraced television as entertainment. I think television is stupid. I think bate television is stupid. I don't want to argue for two hours about whether the fourth and one decision by the coach was mathematically correct. I want to argue about that for six minutes, not for for two hours. I hate to bait television to unless it's Steven A and Chris Russo. That's sort of my only I you know, I do feel like I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of hypocrisy in things, like I'll say like I don't like this, but there might be one instance I like, or like I'm not into this show, but then I'll watch, Like it's hard to be consistent in this business. There's always like little things you might like it. So like I hate to bay shows, but I can't stop watching Steven A and Chris Russo. Only what you say that. You say that, and it's funny that you say that, because do you remember when first take was the worst thing on ESPN? Do you remember when it was the thing that was most criticized When you asked me, why does stephen A have those powers? There's your answer, right, is it ain't that anymore? It's the hood ornament now like it's it is. It's he has figured out how to evolve and how to evolve the format, no matter how grotesque anyone finds it with their sensibilities or judgments, there's no disputing that that show and He is a success the way that we're doing it, and furthermore that it spawned Foxes most original thing like that in having Skip Bayliss and Shannon Sharp do the same thing copycatted in a in a different format. Yeah, I mean, I don't even consider that like a real show. But that's just me. Well not you, but you can cast your judgments on it. But there's no disputing that that form of television. Look, man, Skip By listen seventy like he's seventy. The the idea that that form of television. And yes, of course it's instigation. It's silly, it's professional wrestling. I actually think it's I actually think that show is a different level of silly. I mean I think someone I think it was maybe it was stephen A. I think stephen A sometime in the last month or two made the statement that skips whole thing with Lebron is not performance art and it's real, and I tweeted, if that's the case, he should be in a hospital Skip Bayliss. And I'm not kidding. If all of his stuff about Lebron, if that's authentic, he needs help. In my opinion, I'm not a doctor, but that's how I feel because that's bizarre. It is profit and it is something that is easy to televise, and it will be on the tombstone of Skip Bayliss's obituary, most famous for hating Lebron. It's in a deranged way, yes, in not a sane way. But when you say in a deranged way, is that not just a less efficient way of describing fandom in general? May I? I listen? I write this all the time in my column sports fans are deranged. You have to start any conversation about sports with sports fans are deranged? Did you just quote your own column? Did you that was a real lupica? You did there? As Now you're really insulting man as I wrote in my column. Yes, I know, as I'm written written. Those are your words, Jimmy, not mine. I didn't mean that as a as an insult. Well, I've written it many times and the most recent time I wrote it was last week when college football fans were ready to explode because of the split screens. Like I am in a E meant that the split screens during a Clemson Wake Forest game is ridiculous and his pension have done it. But it's the reaction where you act like your life has been altered in this manner for a two minute at bad. I mean, how long is it at bad? Two minutes maybe, So for two minutes you had a split screen and people were ready to basically go to Bristol and burn down the campus over there. That's there's levels of derangement. Is It was a fine connect though to see old timing baseball standards. It was to me. I loved watching all of it just because you had Baseball and its marketing partnership and uh, you know it's allegiance to ESPN, both of these entities working to try and build a sports star out of nothing, to try and manufact I mean I shouldn't say nothing. I mean, he's a home run hitter, but these are two entities working together to create a televised sports being that matters more. And it was interrupting Wake Forest and Clemson and I and I'm like, man, I don't know that there's a greater sign for baseball dying at our doorstep that right there? Then, how mad young people are that minor league football, minor league professional football is being interrupted by the Yankee star who has a bunch of home runs. Man, things have changed. So that is an excellent point. And let me just I'll brag about my column again, which you seem to enjoy when I do this, but I'll give you don't read mine, by the way. You seem to read yours a whole lot, but you don't read my columns a whole lot. As you think I'm a retired writer. Well, you know what, So here's the deal. I write this column or I don't know. I might have been just on Twitter wear I talk about how over the top the reaction of the college football fans were. They acted like they were being held hostage and kidnapped. For Okay, someone responds to me, I think on Instagram and they say, well, you're a Yankee fan. Imagine if someone did a split screen during a Yankee playoff game. You have to understand Clemson Wake Forest is the equivalent of a Yankee playoff game. Thank you for making my argument and touring my point. I don't think you proved your point. No, No, that guy proved my point that he ranged. I don't. I don't believe. Yes, you think Clemson Wake Forest is a playoff game college football. College football fans are deranged. Yes, thank you, you could have yes, but yes they are to range. But I am not going to judge the college football fan who says I prefer the eleven minutes of total football action I get in Clemson Wake Forest than a Yankee playoff game because I don't care about baseball, because it feels to me like cricket, because baseball fields like cricket. I don't understand it. I don't want it. I didn't grow up with it, and I don't like that I'm not getting enough action. I understand what you're saying. You live, You live in New York. You were old enough to remember that Yankee baseball games you to matter like that. They do not anymore you. But but the media empire that runs these things and makes the decisions at ESPN to do the cut in those are people that are similar in sensibilities to you, Yankees still matter here base it's baseball overall that that has issues. But speaking of baseball, um, I want to tell you the moment I became a damn libitard fan, if I may, If you love that, it's one of my favorite conversations. I go around all over the place. Tell me when you became a Dan Libertard and I will. Two thousand and fourteen, when you gave your Hall of Fame vote to dead Spin when dead Spin was a thing that was, you know, cutting edge, and I couldn't. I couldn't. I can't tell you how much I love that story because I've always been of the belief that the Hall of Fame is a complete joke. And again getting back to sports fans, sports fans beings arranged. I love people who get so upset that someone doesn't have a plaque. I mean, so we're talking about a plaque here, and people get so people are sports fans are sim in too trophies and plaques and all these metal things that aren't meaningless. But you know, once the Hall of Fame decided to shut down the steroids people, I was like, how can anyone if you don't think Barry Bond should be in the whole fame how it's it's a museum. Can we just not take it this seriously? And then you gave your vote to dead Spin and I and it was not appreciated by your overlords at the time. Tell me your memories of that whole of that whole um that was? That was. That was my first conflict of any sort at ESPN, And somehow I was surprised by Vince Dorry, a great sports editor and a a great person when it came to editorial judgment, was running ESPN at the time and was confused, asking me, among other things, well why wouldn't you just do it on our platforms? And there was a whole history there with dead Spin that I didn't even know about that I had a blind spots about. So I didn't realize that I was actually hurting people at ESPN that dead Spin had embarrassed. So there was a collateral damage there that I had not accounted for. But I told Vince, well, that ruins it. If I like, that's that's just all that that's even more look at me than I already was. It's one of my favorite pieces of performance art. Uh in in this silly thing that we do. The fact that um, I did have the principle and the integrity that I was able to cloak in as the disguise for the look at me in like jazz hands and I'm doing this thing that is my principle. But also this is also very stupid. And if you take my vote, that is fine, because who cares. All of it is stupid. It was wonderful. It was it was what the Hall of Fame aim. And then they I love that they took your vote. As if that was going to really just do some damage to your life. They did, They did take the vote, but there were there were plenty of whole timey baseball writers. They're the ones who protect the thing right they did not like. And it's a nice power to have. I'm not gonna lie to you, like I my father, I think, well, no, he doesn't have a Heisman vote anymore, but he sent it back up once he retired from the television show. But it's nice to have those it's nice to have those votes. It's nice to have that power. But it's not so nice that well, the the eron the Aeron Judge thing, they just did it again, Jimmy, they just did again. I imagine as you bring that up from eight years ago, how I experience the Aaron Judge thing when I gave up my Hall of Fame vote because they very much wronged Bury Bonds. If we're not doing this about moralities, we're just doing it about excellence, and the Er and Judge thing felt to me again eight years later, like let's tear down Barry Bonds again. It's not enough that we ran him out of the sport at forty with an ops over a thousand and getting on base half the time. On top of that, we're gonna raise him again because we want to trot around Roger Marris's kid as a mascot. Well, I've always said that the Bonds thing has nothing to do with the steroids. It's because he was a dick to the writers. And that's how I mean, a Rod got suspended for a year and now he's working for ESPN and Fox. I mean, it's personal. It's not about the steroids. In my opinion, it's not just that a Rod got that suspension. A Rod also and encourage everyone here to see the Rock on Tour movie Screwball, which not enough people watch, But A Rod made a big show of totally fake history ONYX where he's running around, lying, kicking briefcases in a meeting with the commissioner and all of it is just it's just it's just total acted out, non sect nonsense fakery, right. And now how he's you know, there's some weirdo in Bristol who has an A Rod fetish and they make them call a playoff game. It's bizarre. Is it an A Rod fetish or is it just he's really famous as a baseball player. And you you will notice right at ESPN there have been an occasional Pippin or or Jerry Rice or Emmett Smith are the great ones at playing, but not great at broadcasting. And I think a Rod is better at broadcasting than those people are. So he's got the combination of name, fame and and willing to work for ESPN, which not everyone, not everyone is willing to do that, especially if they have to go to Bristol to do it. That's all fair, But my counter that would be nobody likes a Rod. There's nobody, there's no there's not a baseball fan across the country that's like, I can't wait for ray Rod to broadcast this game. Does it matter whether they're likable or not to likable broadcasters move the needles very much? Or are you trying to just african the credibility of We've got a famous name here who says baseball and we don't care how stained it is. I just don't like a Rod. Okay, very good. I'm glad for your honesty there, and you just cut right through it. There you go. You're not the only one. Not only do you not like a Rod, you just made it so that no one likes a Rod, not j Low not and you just made she doesn't. No one on earth likes a Rod? Is what is where you just put it? Which I'm not sure it's totally accurate. I did say, except for a weirdo in Bristol who has an a Rod fetish Okay, the one nor okay, whoever it is, I mean not. You know, I'm just you. You're you're in there with the fans more than anyone. You ever hear anyone say, you know that was a great call by a Rod last night? All right, enjoyed listening to a Rod do that game? Or a Rod brought something? I mean al Michael, people watch Colts Broncos the other night for all Michael's basically I'm shooting all over the game for three hours. I'm hugely confused in general by the disconnect that I find with broadcasters, where I don't believe many of them actually move the needle empirically with the broadcast. And yet when you visit the deranged sports fan, what you will get the most passionate about very often is I can't believe Joe Buck is rooting against my team the way how active how much I hate Joe Buck all right, or Joe Buck makes me have strong opinion x even though most of the time most of the broadcasters don't move the needle. But yet here you are, and it's a cottage industry reporting about media and broadcasters because someone's interested in people are interested. People are I mean, that's what when people say to me, who cares about this? Or like like, well, I can give you the traffic report to my column and you can see who's interested. I wouldn't s I would not be paying me if people aren't interested. But it's a weird disconnect to me, right, because I don't believe maybe I've got this wrong. I know John Skipper, the CEO of meadow Lark, would say he said he did numbers crunches and said a broadcaster has never moved the needle on one of these games. Like people who want to watch football gonna watch football no matter who's broadcasting it. Agree. I think I agree that the broadcaster is not going to move the needle. I do think two things. One, I think a broadcaster can make you enjoy a telecast a little more if you like them and if you think they're good Allah al Michaels for instance, Joe Buck. I feel that way too, and many others. The other thing is, and now that we're in this social media age, while a broadcaster will not move the needle, and you know this better than anyone, the executives at ESPN, Fox, CBS, they don't want their broadcasters being trash on social media, whether it moves the needle or not. They don't want to deal with that, which is why I think these people are now getting You know, I think ESPN paying Joe Buck and Troy Aikman. For how many years every Monday Night was ESPN getting trashed on social media. Now that's come to an end for the most part, It is hugely funny to me that Jimmy Kimmel one time came on our show and seemed genuinely baffled as an outsider who at the time was just doing, you know, like the funny segment on Fox that Rob Wriggle does, or where Frank Caliendo used to do where a comedian comes in. And this is our in the fun and games department. This is our isolated playpen for where the comedy is allowed to exist outside of the chuckle fest, and Jimmy Kimmel seemed genuinely baffled by the sheer number of television executives who were very worried about what Rudy Martski was going to write in USA Today about what their broadcast was, and how small that thinking had to be because you're not actually leading or governing with strength about what it is you want in the conviction of what it is you want. You're waiting to see what the television critic at USA Today tells you about what you've put on the air. I will say too, in doing I'm curious what your experience is. I I actually enjoy speaking to media people like yourself and the play by play guys and the analysts, because I think they do good interviews. I much rather do that than interview an athlete. It's very rare. I should say it's very rare, but may I don't know. Maybe it's fifty fifty where you get a good athlete interview. What do you think about that? Kornheiser dozen interview athletes for that reason and had a very popular show because he'd like to talk to writers and authors and friends. I will remind people who might not be old enough to remember that before thirty for thirty, ESPN was doing Sports Century, and Sports Century realized that writers sitting down in front of a documentary in what unschooled stories that would be great and would help you build the fabric or the tapestry of a really good documentary. I don't agree with people who think that or dismiss athletes as dumb, because I believe that to do what they do, to sculpt it, you have to be excellent at that thing and get really smart about that thing, and it might be to the lopsided detriment of your personality, and you might not be what others would describe as smart at other things. Because to get to the top of that ecosystem requires an obsessive compulsiveness and a discipline to being smart at that. That might not make them as great at interviews, but I enjoy anybody who's willing to open up or be introspective. There's just very little value in that anymore for athletes. I don't know if you check the social media accounts of Brady and Jeter and stuff, but they're they've got people handling all of this stuff for how it is that they get presented. Jeter started the Player's Tribune at least in part because he's like, why are athletes always just giving away their stories to media entities that aren't paying for it, and then also in the transaction taking the juiciest parts of it and playing gotcha and aggregating and getting them in trouble. Why not allow them to tell their own stories that that leads to where it is we are now? And this this is something that Metal Lark aims to have a corner in where do you want your athletes to tell the story that Magic Johnson is telling on Apple where it's antiseptic, or that Jeter told on ESPN where he's partnering with them on how his story gets told, and in exchange for access that Russell Westbrook or Edelman or Boogie Cousins gives you in the Showtime documentary, you're gonna get an antiseptic, sanitized version of their truth that doesn't have the honesty in it that perhaps awards and all account given to you by a journalist might have. So long answer your question is, I just want to talk to interesting people. And there are fewer and fewer reasons for athletes to come on here and be interesting with you. Because we're takers. We have to take things from them, and they're like, why would I give that away to you anymore? I don't have to Well it all says, will end it with this your radio legend. Now in the podcast YouTube world, what is Dan Lebatards? I want your all time favorite radio show, the one that I've listened to the most, because I can't really say that we have had a whole lot of influences in that front. We've gone, I've gone out of my way to mock the entirety of the establishment. Right. So, I I grew up in South Florida with listening to sports radio a certain way, and I just decided when I got into it that I wanted to do it much differently than that that I thought much of it was silly. So I can't say, like I've in one sports radio show over the years you've liked listening to. I don't listen to very much of it now, and I haven't listened to very much of it because I found it sort of inherently empty. I was, I was very bored by the construct. In fact, Jimmy, I've told this story before, but when I was in when I had arrived in my late twenties at all of the jobs that I wanted and the professional success that I wanted, and found that it wasn't quite as enriching as I hoped it would be, and it was looking to where it is that I would transition the I'm not kidding you when I say I looked at sports radio and I'm like, Okay, the bar is so low on this that the person doing the show is farming out his responsibility and job two add on a mobile so that that person does the job for them. That's the construct of sports radio. I think I could jump over that bar if I have to change careers, if I have to evolve, If if you put the bar that low. I think I can jump over it. So I don't mean to be dismissing of it. It's just not something that I've ever listened to other than to mock you're You're entitled to that opinion, and I appreciate it, and I appreciate the time. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for doing this, and I'm thrilled to have you on here for the first time. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you, Thank you, sir. I appreciate it all right. Joining me now for our weekly Train of Thoughts segment from w f AN Radio in New York s and Y TV. My buddy sal Lacata. I didn't know if he maybe would bail this week after the Mets were eliminated, but here he is a good job being being a professional. Yeah right, that was honestly, after they got swept on the braves. That was the worst for me. So they sucked that they got eliminated, but dealing with the sweep of the braves, nothing will compare. We detailed seal going viral last week, so if you missed the checkout last week's train of thought. Second, we're not gonna do it again. Did you went to all three games at City Field. Unfortunately, yes I did, and I will say that it was. But you've been a plenty of Yankee playoff games. I not believe that they actually did not sell out game three of that. That to me is an embarrassment. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I'm with you on that from I just think, I just think the way things are now, with the cost of everything, it's it's pretty tough to rip people. I and I I didn't look into specifics, but I saw enough articles and saw enough tweets and heard enough things on New York radio about the prices for the tickets were pretty jacked up. They were now on the secondary market, you can get them cheap. I just have a hard time. You know, it's a it's a New York franchise. They haven't been in the postseason in six years. I was shocked that they did not sell out a game three potential clinchers. So Sunday night, Sunday night, people with work and if it's an NFL day, and I just think when a bagel with cream cheese coast five bucks, I can't rip people for because it's not just the ticket price. You know, this you gotta pay for the part king no radiculous, and then god forbid, you want a drink, and then you know you up creak. Basically you're in for a thousand bucks to see the Mets funeral. And that's basically what fans wanted to avoid. Yeah. Um, when you were in Game three and it became evident they were gonna lose, where people what was the mood in the stands? Are people like nasty? Where they depressed? Yes, they were nasty, very nasty. A matter of fact, I would say, even though, like I know, it's not a sellout, but the crowd in general it was thirty six thousand, thirty nine thousand, whatever was it was. It felt like a July baseball game against the Padres, not wild card postseason. So even before they got down in the game, the crowd wasn't good. And then once they got down and then started to get beat up pretty good, the crowd was very Yeah, that tells me that what you said earlier is true, that sort of the bubble burst for the Mets fan with the Brave Series more than the Padres. Did you get any verbal abuse at City Field over the three nights? I did, Yeah, And the one now most people and by the way it was, I mean, we didn't talk about this off the year, but it was incredible the amount of people that recognized like I was legitimately famous in city field, which I was hard to believe. But and most people nice want to take pictures, just say hello, but there were I guess somebody got wind that I was sitting in the section that I was in and while the Mets were losing. I remember, I'm there with my eight year old nephew, my brother in law and my cousin. I'm just trying to watch a game, you know whatever. Somebody says hello, I'll take a picture of a deal. These two guys, who were looking for confrontation, stood up, turned around towards the back of the section, and we're yelling, where's sal lakata at? Where's Lekato? We know you here? Where you at? And I, of course didn't say anything. Now you know me like me, I want to be like, I'm right here. What do you want to do about? You wanna take a picture? You want autograph, you want to buy? What do you want? But I can't do that, So I didn't say anything and just de escalated situation. But nobody pointed you out. Nobody was like, oh, the jinx is right here. No, no, my brother in law was like the guy who doing the Mets, that motherfucker's right here. Was just it was just a bizarre feeling. But to have to be called out like that, right, and you know, a couple of guys are yelling out over like blaming me. But all right, all right, well let's move on. We have some topics to hit, we have best bets to give. I am now five and oh sal over five, three and two, So we'll do that at the end here. Um, well, let's start with a little baseball. Where do you say, I don't know how how much you're gonna be locked into the Yankee series. You have to be basically for your job. Where do you stand on Bob Costas as a play by play announcer? Oh my god, now this is a great topic for you and on. I love Bob Costas doing baseball in the ladies. I love of nostalgia. However, I thought he, with all due respect, was terrible, a terrible listen last night, your personality talking down to you. There was arrogance there. He's doing a game as if it's it's not as much I love that you gotta evolved. I did not think it was a good broadcast at all from his perspective. I hate to say that. You don't have to hate to say. You're allowed to be honest because I know he's a great broadcast. I respect for him, but that was not it. I didn't really listen much. I I listened to the radio, so I can't really offer a judgment on it. But you know, I don't know. I have this weird thing with Bob Cosas because back, I mean going way way back when I started Hot Clicks. You know, I was always sort of when Hot Clicks was around, especially, I was sort of the voice of a fan more than a media reporter or right. I still wouldn't consider myself a writer, and and you know, back then, everyone genuflected at the feet of Bob Costs, and I was like, yeah, I'm just not like, I'm not a fan, and yeah, like nuts and bolts, technically great broadcaster, but I just I always feel like the attitude is I'm smarter than you. You're an idiot, I'm gonna lecture you. I've always felt that about him, and I wrote something negative once about him, and he called and we had a lengthy phone conversation. Um, and he was a nice He was nice on the phone. But the problem with this business and for what I do, and in terms of critiquing media, is you're not like, it's okay if someone's not my cup of tea, like Bob Costs, this is not my cup of tea, and that's okay. Everyone should be okay with that, but you know, everyone gets bent out of shape and they take things personally like you know, well, that's why I say he'd say it because I know that you know, if I say it on the Overnight, people don't care about what I say about Bob Costs on the Overnight, but maybe here they do. And I have great respect him as a broadcaster. But it just was not uh, And you're right, I got that sense that he's lecturing and I don't want to. And it's also about personality. Where he may be the best ever to be technically sound and a brilliant broadcaster, his personality is not. It doesn't fit in today's media world for me personally. So well, he baseballs that you know, baseball is in a tough spot and they were in a much tougher spot, I think than the NFL and the NBA from this standpoint, you know, if they throw someone like a Bob Costas, who I don't want use the word old. He's an old but old school, old school, old school of a certain generation of a certain age, people rip rip the decision to use him because you know, it feels not fresh. And then if they try something fresh, like Apple TV did with their broadcasters, they get ripped for that baseball. It's hard to find the middle ground now. I do think what's interesting about the costUS thing with TBS and Anderson is doing the other series that TBS has the guy who got squeezed out because of Costas who did playoffs. I think the last couple of years who I love and then is phenomenal is Donna or Silo who used to be the Red Sox announcer. Now it is the Padres. Like I think, that's like a perfect guy to do playoff baseball. Not too old, not too young, not you know, so different like the Apple telecast, not an old fogy like causes like, but he got squeezed out because I I understand TBS wants that cache. Like you said, he's a legend, so they want to be able to use the name Bob Causes on that. Did you see I wrote about it and Wednesday's trailer thoughts. Did you see the promo they did for the House of Dragon show? I did, at least I was stunned. Cost disagreed to that because the thing starts with him going we almost didn't play this game tonight. When when I saw the clip on Twitter, I'm like, what it was? Seventy degrees in New York was beautiful sunshine? At what are you? And then it turns out to be this just cringeworthy promo? I was I could not believe like that, you know this I can't get And this is where Twitter drives me nuts, like everybody wants to rip everything. What do you think is paying the bills? You knuckle heads? If they tell you as a broadcaster, hey, you gotta do this promo as bad as you may think it is or not. You're doing it because there are a sponsor. He hasn't. Well, first of all, they're not a sponsor. It's it's all in house promotion like HDIO. Well, HBO Max is owned by the same company as Turner, so it's straight promotion. They weren't making money. But Bob Kostas has enough poll where he can say, can we change this sentence or can we change his dialogue? He doesn't have to flat out refuse to do it, but he can. He has the power. But then he's being a jerk if he does that. Ask you to do is if your boss ask you to do something that is for the company, whether it's a sponsor, whether it's just promoting the same brand, you do it. Right. He can do it, but he can also ask like, hey, can we change this line or can we change his sentence? There's nothing wrong with him doing that, all right? I mean I guess I don't know. I don't have a big deal. I couldn't care less. Why do people make such a big deal of it and nothing to do with the because when something is cringeworthy, that's what we react to. But that's to me, it's just sad where we're at. But you're right, like everything is scrutinized now, I get everything outside of the game. Okay, what about here's another topic, Davante Adams pushing the guy a little different story. I mean, he pushed somebody. You can't act like that. How about commercial or promo is different than pushing somebody. How about people who have come out and blame the guy because he ran in the way. Okay, so if someone runs in your way, you pushed them. No, you try to either like dodge them or you like you grab them and like say, oh, hey, yeah he pushed him. I was. And it wasn't just like bumped into kind of push extend your arms. It was a shove. He shoved him to the ground. I know, we apologize since, but that was that's horrible behavior. Like what do I do think? It's weak? Though? The guy's gonna like foleow a pres replete report and I mean, oh yeah, yeah, they tried him with a misdemeanor. Now is like a fine or somebody? Guy he's got he's in some kind of trouble. The guy said he got, but before then he shouldn't. The guy said he had a concussion, so who knows. Alright, So then all right, you don't want people ripping the awful TBS promo, Well, I just don't care. You could do what obviously everybody could do whatever they want. Me. It just does nothing for me. It's irrelevant. It's I would imagine though, What is relevant as a Falcons fan was the roughing the passer penalty. I thought the I thought the one on Monday night was worse, but I mean they're both obviously bad. I agree with you for this reason. The one on Monday night I thought was worse because the guy actually like took the ball and it was a fumble. How can you ever? And I thought, I don't want to sit here and act like I'm in any way shape before, any way, shape or form defending the one from Sunday on on Grady Jarrow Brady. I could see where the ref foot Jarrett need him. I thought it got up and kicked him or something like that. It looked like, I don't know, maybe Brady sold it. They're both horrifically bad. I mean, there's no other way around there. I think. Tell me what you think of this. I think each coach should get one roughing the passer challenge per game outside of their regular challenges. I mean it's too big of a play. Yeah, well, that's my issue is that it's ruining the sport. Look here, you can't do anything to a quarterback anywhere. You touch him in the phase fifteen yard you tackle them low fifteen yards. You Graham bound the waist throwing around fifteen yard, just four on them fifteen yards you can't. So either we gotta get to a point where it's flag football or everything should be reviewed and then a judgment call. But even then it's still a judgment call, and you would have been in the hands of these knucklehead referee. So I don't know the answer. But you cannot tackle the quarterback in today's NFL. That's the bottom one. Yeah, you can't really even touch them, otherwise gonna be a penalty. I'm glad you said flag football, Nicko. Troy been on us? Oh no, I mean, what do you think I am? I'm no misogynist, is it? I'm fascinated by I love Troy too, and I I'm fascinated that Troy didn't apologize, which I don't think he should have because I don't believe in the fake apology. But Jeff Passon apologized for his tweet, and it's I wonder because Troy is such a big wig and making so much money, he can do what he wants it. He has been a little bit, but I thought it was interesting that one. And I also think Troy smart for not apologize because I think once you do that, then you keep it going for another day or so, so maybe just let it go. But you but look, there are we're in the world now. There were comments in sports, phrases in sports and in society, but we're sticking with sports specifically here that were said for years that me, as a young kid, heard, learned used without ever thinking what it actually means and how disrespectful it could be. I think that's one of them. Here's the truth. I'm gonna let's be Can we be honest. Everyone still uses that phrase, They just don't do it in a public form. They do it privately. I mean, I I guess I don't. It's different as a broad maybe not maybe not that specific phrase, but a lot of phrases that were not allowed to use on social media we use in real life with our friends on it. You know the difference. It's a broadcast, you can't say that, well, here's he's a bad personally meant ill will or re meant disrespect. But if you understand what that comment means, you would never say it on the air. Well, I I do think, I do think the outrage about it is a Twitter thing and not a real life thing. Like I don't think anyone in the real world was really like that defendant and had their world rock by that comment. But on Twitter, like this goes back to what you were saying about the other thing. Like on Twitter, it's just so easy to go on there and go, oh my god, the Troy can just say wedding dresses. I'm so offended. It's so misogynistic, it's so sexist. Blah blah blah blah blah bah. I don't think it's a real world thing. I think it's a Twitter thing. That's my opinion on it. Yeah, I don't look, I don't know the difference anymore. I mean, like, I want to believe that what happens on social media and Twitter is not real world, but the world that you when I live in, it seems to be a pretty significant part of them. Well here's what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. And you have the right attitude because you're on the air live radio three to five hours every night, half hour on TV, like you can't say anything, like don't even like you should always error on the side of not say anything. But it is my point. Troy Aikman goes, I'm on the night football and says take the dresses off or whatever the line, and everyone on Twitter flips out and the Internet and everyone goes, here's what I mean by real not a real world thing. I guarantee you if you were in Arrowhead Stadium on Monday night, you had plenty of people saying, oh, what do we go? Why don't we just put dresses on them? You know what I mean? Like that is a comment that's being made probably throughout that whole entire stadium, right, But don't you think that that phrase in general, where like it's it was a normal phrase to say that, right, whatever, It could be a phrase like oh we are in different times. Well what I mean like if if my father would say, you know, thirty years ago, stop acting like your sister, stop backing go or don't how about this with baseball? You throw like a girl. Nobody Like, I never actually gave it a thought how that could be disrespectful, but obviously you take a second to think about it, and it is so in this particular case. That's what I think that we're at. Whether people actually acknowledge why it's wrong or how it's uh, you know, disrespectful well, and I also think I also think and I think this was the case with Troy. I don't think Troy was thinking about the disrespectful angelf of it. I think he was just using a phrase that's been used for years and years. And that's exactly my point. So I don't think he meant any harm. But we as we evolve, you learn, and I try to think and say, well, why can't you say crap like that anymore? And it should be obvious, right, I think I think Troy is not saying that again on TV, that's for sure, and like, yeah, I know, like, don't you is that phrase when I'm writing my column for Sports Illustrated and Troy probably shouldn't. But but I do think intent and context is important. Like I don't think he was like, oh, let me insult women by making this statement. I think it was a phrase that it's a phrase that's been used to used it he shouldn't have used it. But and there have been other people in recent years that did have the intent to disparage or diminished well like Jim Rome with Jim Rome with Jim Everett when he kept calling him Chris and Chris that was an intentional you know, and even the reason I forget maybe there was something, um, I forget exactly what it was, but maybe female athletes getting some crap from some guys and trying to make it like they were less than Like if you're doing it intentionally, that's a whole different level of assholary like you, you obviously can't do that, right, I think that, yeah, exactly, And I also think I what I don't what I what I understand is if someone does say something offensive. I don't if someone says something that offends me, okay, and I can't really think of much that way, but let's say there is. I don't I'm not gonna be then satisfied because ESPN makes the guy do an apology, Like, I don't understand the desire for the fake apology from people, Like what is? What does that serve? Does that make anybody feel better? I never I don't even pay attention to it, because we all know the truth anyway. He's not sorry. Now I'm not saying he wouldn't be in this case or whatever, but in general, well, I don't know. I wouldn't say he's not sorry. I think he. I think he it was like a lesson more than you know. He probably didn't really you know and realize that phrase was banned. I didn't mean him specifically, But the times where we've seen the forced apologies, most times people are saying it because they feel like they have to, as opposed to actually being sorry. Right, So, like, for instance, I don't want to bash your guy, but this is the first thing that comes to mind because it's hot and fresh. Like Kanye West has now come out with all these anti semitic comments. You know, I saw something today where they got him on tape saying positive things about Hitler. Okay, fine, So if Kanye comes out and apologizes, that does nothing. It doesn't change when his mentality. His mentality is still the same. So what's it? Why do you need an apology from kind of anima? Let's go now into a whole different gear and go to the best bets. Because so I'm five and oh I had San Francisco last week, very very easy. I knew Carolina was shot, ended up firing the coach the next day. Baker Mayfield's a mess. I love that matchup. So um, Sam Fran minus six last week was the winner from me, you had the Patriots excellent. You know, I couldn't believe. You know, we had taped early in the week and you picked the patients so many people I saw on the Lions. Lions are like a hot pick last week. Yeah, I felt like that might be the case. They're trendy. They score a lot o New England with the third string quarterback b B. And it turned out to be a rocking chair. I you know, I think they Jared goff Is okay in certain spots on the road outdoors in New England, it's Belichick not It's not a spot. That was a good call by you. All right, Um, all right, this week, so I'm five in our house, three and two. You gotta pick for this week? Yes, I do you want to first hit me? You go first? All right? So three straight, see if we can make it four. There was a couple that I was you know, I thought about taking the Packers bounce back, but I don't know what the Jets really are, and I don't know if the Packers really are, um maybe the Ravens, but the same thing. I'm too close, So I think the Giants can be competitive that I'm gonna go with the Cowboys and take them plus the six. I do not believe Philadelphia is that good. I think they're good. I don't think they're that good, and Dallas defense can stole them down. I think they can win the game outright. You're getting six the Vision Ribble, maybe a close game, field goal game. So I feel comfortable about the Cowboys trying to re establish themselves as the top team in the NFC East, giving them plus six this weekend. I don't love that pick, only because, like the whole Cooper rushes undefeated. But I mean, he threw like a hundred yards last week on the road in Philly. I don't think that's gonna cut it. You're gonna need something from the quarterback. So I don't know if I love that pig. It's funny what you said, because I wrote down two games. I didn't like the board at all this week. I don't like the board at all, and it was a struggle for me to find anything, and I wrote down two games. I wrote down the Giants plus five and a half at home against the Ravens, and I wrote the Jets plus seven at Green Bay. And I was trying to figure out which one to take. I'm gonna go with the Jets only for this reason. I mean, I'm gonna go with the Jets for this reason. They're getting a touchdown, whereas the Giants are just plus five and a half. An though the Giants are at home, Jets go to Green Bay. I just think I don't think the Packers are that good. I just don't, you know, struggled against sappy third string quarterback for the Patriots lose to the Giants. I think the Jets, if they can continue feeding Bryce Hall, is very smart. I just like being a touchdown in this game. I'm not I don't. I'm not saying that Jet's gonna win, but I do think it will be close. I don't think because the Packers have so few weapons, if any weapons at all, it's at wide receiver. I don't think they're built to blow teams out anymore. Their offense is not gonna blow people out. So I with the getting the touchdown, I'm gonna go with the Jets plus seven. I think it's a ballsy pick. I just I feel like the norm would be Oh Packers off the Wall Street turning home against the Jets. Who are the Jets, even though they won a couple of games. So what do you think the Jets are with Wilson and Hall and you know Garrett Wilson as well, they have weapons offensively. Can they slow down Rogers. It's a fascinating game. I think we're gonna actually learn about what both these teams are this week. So that's why I kind of went the other way on that one. But I think I like it in the touchdown. If it was, you know, line was a little lower, I might not like it. But like I said, the Packers offense, you know, they have the two running backs obviously with Jones and and um, oh my god, I'm trying to blank the A. J. Dillon. But when they have to throw the ball, they got major problems. So I think the Jets can keep it close. I love this. I took a loss with the Jets in Week one. Maybe I could gain a game here with you going with your hometown team if you slip up a little bit. I will say this, and this is a fact, the Jets don't cover. You will never hear me mention them the rest of the season. They will be That's it. I hate betting this team. The franchise has been pathetic for fifty years. I'm not, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna dabble and take a chance here it alright, So Salas got Dallas, I've got the Jets, and we'll see how he did next week. Sal I would say, enjoy the Major League Baseball playoffs, but probably not. Although, just just so you know, I did bet the Yankees big to win the American League, not only the series against Cleveland, but to win the American League. So I went right there along with what what line did you get? Uh? But plus two dred something like that, Okay, before the playoffs. Before the playoffs, Yeah, don't get excited because they beat the Indians of Guardians one game. That's not gonna cut it all. Is there a team with the Mets out? Is there a team you're pulling for to win at all? To win the World Series? Uh? Not really? I mean, look the traditional underdogs, Podreys, Mariners, Um I guess Cleveland. Um No. I just don't want to see either the Braves or the Phillies. That's all I care about getting. I can't wait for Sunday where at least one of them will be eliminated. So if it's Yankees, Braves or Yankees Phillies. You'll root for the Yankees. I'm not sure. It depends how how the Yankee fan is over the next three weeks. It depends how we get there. How am I a Yankee? You're fine, You're fine. Here's what read my Twitter mentions. And then you tell me who you root for if you were made so braves are out, I want them out or nobody and whoever plays them. That's what I'm moving for. I have read your Twitter ments and a few times over the last couple of weeks. Ain't pretty? Ain't pretty? And let me tell you, you know, it's a weird thing because I want to be a good friend and offer advice, but you also don't want you know, like we're adults. You're allowed to do what you want. So, like I'll scroll through Twitter and I see you tweeting. I'm going on, why is he tweeting? Sweet? For a few they just do and then you and you know you're when you tweet, you're not you know, it's not usually light breezy. Yeah, you come in hot. I'm just going I'm going should I text them? Should I tell them to stop? What should I do? You know? So, alright, well, we all have our wishes a Twitter. All right, we'll see you next week's out. Alright, alright, my thanks to Dan the Lebotard and sell Lakata. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the show. If you do, get on Apple, leave a review, give us a five star rating. Write some words that you like the pod. It's appreciated. We'll read them on the pod down the road. If you missed any recent episodes of the SI Media podcast, go into the archives and check them out. Combat sports journalist Ariel Holwani was on last week, Brian Curtis from The Ringer two weeks ago, Rich Eisen three weeks ago, Andrew Marshan, Al Michael's Matthew Berry. All recent guests on the SI Media Podcast. Dip into the archives, check them out, subscribe to the pod. Give us a rating on Apple. Leabor review. We'll read it on an upcoming episode. All right, that wraps it up. Have a good week. We'll see you next week. 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SI Media With Jimmy Traina

Every week on the Sports Illustrated Media Podcast, host Jimmy Traina sits down for an informal conv 
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