1 - intro

2 - podcasting recession era

3 - Paul Riismandel joins Signal Hill Insights

4 - quick hits

5 - outro

Robot

This week: Opportunity in Kids podcasting as recession looms, Podcasting’s ‘recession era’, some audio publisher’s teams still growing in 2023, and Paul Riismandel joins Signal Hill Insights. 

Podcasting’s Recession Era and how podcasters are approaching it.

Manuela: This week our first segment is going to cover a variety of articles centering around an overall theme: podcasting’s reaction to the recession in early 2023. To kick things off, we continue a throughline of covering how the Kids & Family category has quickly evolved into a juggernaut. Over the first half of 2022 the genre made itself known as a force to be reckoned with over several big deals and signings. 

Now as the recession looms, along with doom-and-gloom articles about said recession, big-name deals are becoming more scarce. Tumble Media CEO Lindsay Patterson has worked in kids podcasting for years and likens the 2022 surge to being invited to a party late. Kids & Family has arrived just in time to find the host is taking down the decorations. From her January 11th Medium post: 

“With a general pullback on spending on podcasts, it’s likely that companies will be hesitant to invest in strategy and content for kids, who require a new approach to audience development and monetization. It’s a different model than “grownup” podcasts. But the good news is kids’ podcasts may be a welcome guest at other parties — and in many other industries. There are choices. Nay, there are opportunities.”

Patterson proposes Kids & Family’s relative newcomer status to the wider industry leaves it plenty of unpursued avenues that are already well-tread ground for others. Her article touches on concepts like adapting existing kid-friendly IP to podcasts and pursuing new platforms. Interestingly, she points to nonprofits, grants, and research studies as potentially viable funding paths. Patterson speaks from experience, having partnered Tumble Media with a non-profit organization to win a grant. The partnership has been funded to spend three years studying how both listening to and making podcasts can engage blind and sighted students in the classroom. 

“In a way, the warnings and scrutiny of the podcast industry makes me more optimistic than ever before about the kids’ space. We can take a clear eyed look from the outside, and see how kids’ podcasts can and should be better.”

Patterson’s suggestions of creativity and adaptability come at a good time for smaller creators, as even larger presences in podcasting are beginning to feel the effects of hiring and investment freezes. This Wednesday the Hollywood Reporter published a piece by J. Clara Chan titled “Podcasting’s Recession Era: Dealmaking Gets More Selective in Slower Ad Market.”

Chan begins the piece with a big-picture view of investments made by major players in the industry before setting the article’s goal answering the question: “What will podcasting’s next era look like during a recession?”

Her article begins with a focus on the deal-making side of the industry, sourcing two anonymous dealmakers and their observations of industry performance in recent months. Big companies seem to have covered their bases on wide demographics. Chan gives the example of Spotify’s coverage of Gen Z and millennial women with acquisitions of Call Her Daddy and Emma Chamberlain’s Anything Goes. \

BIPOC Podcast Creators co-founder Tangia Al-awaji Estrada gives a perspective from a smaller, independent side of the industry:

“It feels a little bit premature at this stage because we don’t know exactly what’s going to happen, but it does feel like there’s some panic in the air. We’re seeing companies who’d normally be investing in up-and-coming talents, indie creators — smaller companies are pulling back and saying, ‘Well, we’re not doing that right now. We’re not doing that at all.’ So, there’s definitely a feeling like folks are holding their breaths to see what’s going to happen.”

Last Friday Sara Guaglione, writing for Digiday, published a piece covering the phenomenon of smaller production houses growing as larger entities condense their audio teams. A tally of jobs on sites like Indeed with the word ‘podcast’ in the description shows there has been a downward trend of open positions since the peak in May of 2022. Still, companies are hiring.

“A number of media companies posted new podcast job openings this month. Vox Media, for example, posted a job opening this week for a $200,000+ ​​executive producer position for its daily show “Today Explained.””

Guaglione also points to Tenderfoot TV, The New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal as places that are actively growing their audio teams. 

Returning to the Hollywood Reporter piece, we reach the advertising side of podcasting. The conclusion reached by J. Clara Chan’s reporting will be a familiar one to loyal followers of The Download. In general, advertisers are pacing themselves from brand awareness campaigns and doubling down on direct response and prioritizing sales conversions. 

The piece ends with a final sentiment from Al-awaji Estrada, quote: 

“Podcasting is going to be just fine. I really believe that podcasting is still so young that a huge market change isn’t going to blow up the entire world. There’s going to be some tightening of the belts, probably, across the board. But by the time we come out of this thing, I think we will have seen podcasting continue to grow through the recession.” 

Paul Riismandel joins Signal Hill Insights

Shreya: For this segment we’re covering something of personal significance to Sounds Profitable. Last Thursday podcasting veteran Paul Riismandel joined Signal Hill Insights as the company’s new Chief Insights officer. From the Signal Hill press release:

“At Signal Hill, Riismandel will help solidify the company as a critical independent third-party voice providing industry-wide and custom research solutions. He will focus on furthering innovation in podcast measurement, combining ad effectiveness, creative analysis, and audience insights, in order to help partners and the industry at large understand how best to serve both listeners and advertisers, together.” 

Having overseen hundreds of ad effectiveness studies since 2014, Riismandel takes research seriously. From his blog post on the Signal Hill website last Thursday:  

“I cannot overstate the importance of independent third-party research in the development of any media platform. That said, publishers are a fundamental driver, and many invest in internal research, done with integrity, to build their business. In turn this elevates the whole medium.”

For those newer to Sounds Profitable, Riismandel is a big figure in the company’s history. It was him who got Midroll Media to become a day-one Sounds Profitable partner back in September of 2020. Now, in 2023, we’re thrilled to be partnering with Riismandel and everyone else at Signal Hill Insights in producing more independent third-party research. 

Quick Hits

Shreya:Finally, it’s time for our semi-regular roundup of articles called Quick Hits. These are articles that didn’t quite make the cut for today’s episode, but are still worth including in your weekend reading. This week: 

Magellan AI launches Spanish language podcast prospecting and competitive intelligence tool, a press release provided via Podnews. With their new Spanish language support, Magellan AI already has data on Spanish-language ads from more than 2,000 advertisers in the US. 

A better way to measure podcast success: Listen Time by Jonas Woost for Bumper. In which Woost tells the story of YouTube switching from using views as a metric to ‘watch time,’ and suggesting a similar update to the podcasting industry as an alternative to the download. 

A Tale of Two Bytes: Prefix vs. Host-based analytics by John Spurlock for Livewire Labs. An excellent explainer on why third-party analytics download stats might be different from the downloads reported by one’s hosting company. 

The Download is a production of Sounds Profitable. Today's episode was hosted by Shreya Sharma and Manuela Bedoya, and the script was written by Gavin Gaddis.

Bryan Barletta and Tom Webster are the executive producers of The Download from Sounds Profitable.

This week: Opportunity in Kids podcasting as recession looms, Podcasting’s ‘recession era’, some audio publisher’s teams still growing in 2023, and Paul Riismandel joins Signal Hill Insights. 
<hr>
Podcasting’s Recession Era and how podcasters are approaching it.
Manuela: This week our first segment is going to cover a variety of articles centering around an overall theme: podcasting’s reaction to the recession in early 2023. To kick things off, we continue a throughline of covering how the Kids &amp; Family category has quickly evolved into a juggernaut. Over the first half of 2022 the genre made itself known as a force to be reckoned with over several big deals and signings. 
Now as the recession looms, along with doom-and-gloom articles about said recession, big-name deals are becoming more scarce. Tumble Media CEO Lindsay Patterson has worked in kids podcasting for years and likens the 2022 surge to being invited to a party late. Kids &amp; Family has arrived just in time to find the host is taking down the decorations. <a href="https://medium.com/tumble-media/the-opportunities-for-kids-podcasts-in-2023-53bcfcaa669f">From her January 11th Medium post</a>: 
“With a general pullback on spending on podcasts, it’s likely that companies will be hesitant to invest in strategy and content for kids, who require a new approach to audience development and monetization. It’s a different model than “grownup” podcasts. But the good news is kids’ podcasts may be a welcome guest at other parties — and in many other industries. There are choices. Nay, there are opportunities.”
Patterson proposes Kids &amp; Family’s relative newcomer status to the wider industry leaves it plenty of unpursued avenues that are already well-tread ground for others. Her article touches on concepts like adapting existing kid-friendly IP to podcasts and pursuing new platforms. Interestingly, she points to nonprofits, grants, and research studies as potentially viable funding paths. Patterson speaks from experience, having partnered Tumble Media with a non-profit organization to win a grant. The partnership has been funded to spend three years studying how both listening to and making podcasts can engage blind and sighted students in the classroom. 
“In a way, the warnings and scrutiny of the podcast industry makes me more optimistic than ever before about the kids’ space. We can take a clear eyed look from the outside, and see how kids’ podcasts can and should be better.”
Patterson’s suggestions of creativity and adaptability come at a good time for smaller creators, as even larger presences in podcasting are beginning to feel the effects of hiring and investment freezes. This Wednesday the Hollywood Reporter published a piece by J. Clara Chan titled <a href="https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/podcast-deals-market-advertising-1235302513/">“Podcasting’s Recession Era: Dealmaking Gets More Selective in Slower Ad Market.”</a>
Chan begins the piece with a big-picture view of investments made by major players in the industry before setting the article’s goal answering the question: “What will podcasting’s next era look like during a recession?”
Her article begins with a focus on the deal-making side of the industry, sourcing two anonymous dealmakers and their observations of industry performance in recent months. Big companies seem to have covered their bases on wide demographics. Chan gives the example of Spotify’s coverage of Gen Z and millennial women with acquisitions of Call Her Daddy and Emma Chamberlain’s Anything Goes. \
BIPOC Podcast Creators co-founder Tangia Al-awaji Estrada gives a perspective from a smaller, independent side of the industry:
“It feels a little bit premature at this stage because we don’t know exactly what’s going to happen, but it does feel like there’s some panic in the air. We’re seeing companies who’d normally be investing in up-and-coming talents, indie creators — smaller companies are pulling back and saying, ‘Well, we’re not doing that right now. We’re not doing that at all.’ So, there’s definitely a feeling like folks are holding their breaths to see what’s going to happen.”
Last Friday Sara Guaglione, writing for Digiday, <a href="https://digiday.com/media/some-publishers-podcast-teams-are-still-growing-as-they-hedge-their-bets-on-the-medium-in-2023/">published a piece covering the phenomenon of smaller production houses growing as larger entities condense their audio teams</a>. A tally of jobs on sites like Indeed with the word ‘podcast’ in the description shows there has been a downward trend of open positions since the peak in May of 2022. Still, companies are hiring.
“A number of media companies posted new podcast job openings this month. Vox Media, for example, posted a job opening this week for a $200,000+ ​​executive producer position for its daily show “Today Explained.””
Guaglione also points to Tenderfoot TV, The New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal as places that are actively growing their audio teams. 
Returning to the Hollywood Reporter piece, we reach the advertising side of podcasting. The conclusion reached by J. Clara Chan’s reporting will be a familiar one to loyal followers of The Download. In general, advertisers are pacing themselves from brand awareness campaigns and doubling down on direct response and prioritizing sales conversions. 
The piece ends with a final sentiment from Al-awaji Estrada, quote: 
“Podcasting is going to be just fine. I really believe that podcasting is still so young that a huge market change isn’t going to blow up the entire world. There’s going to be some tightening of the belts, probably, across the board. But by the time we come out of this thing, I think we will have seen podcasting continue to grow through the recession.” 
<hr>
Paul Riismandel joins Signal Hill Insights
Shreya: For this segment we’re covering something of personal significance to Sounds Profitable. Last Thursday podcasting veteran Paul Riismandel joined Signal Hill Insights as the company’s new Chief Insights officer. From the Signal Hill press release:
“At Signal Hill, Riismandel will help solidify the company as a critical independent third-party voice providing industry-wide and custom research solutions. He will focus on furthering innovation in podcast measurement, combining ad effectiveness, creative analysis, and audience insights, in order to help partners and the industry at large understand how best to serve both listeners and advertisers, together.” 
Having overseen hundreds of ad effectiveness studies since 2014, Riismandel takes research seriously. From his blog post on the Signal Hill website last Thursday:  
“I cannot overstate the importance of independent third-party research in the development of any media platform. That said, publishers are a fundamental driver, and many invest in internal research, done with integrity, to build their business. In turn this elevates the whole medium.”
For those newer to Sounds Profitable, Riismandel is a big figure in the company’s history. It was him who got Midroll Media to become a day-one Sounds Profitable partner back in September of 2020. Now, in 2023, we’re thrilled to be <a href="https://soundsprofitable.com/guide-and-article/the-new-sounds-profitable/">partnering with Riismandel and everyone else at Signal Hill Insights</a> in producing more independent third-party research. 
<hr>
Quick Hits
Shreya: Finally, it’s time for our semi-regular roundup of articles called Quick Hits. These are articles that didn’t quite make the cut for today’s episode, but are still worth including in your weekend reading. This week: 
<a href="https://podnews.net/press-release/magellan-ai-spanish">Magellan AI launches Spanish language podcast prospecting and competitive intelligence tool</a>, a press release provided via Podnews. With their new Spanish language support, Magellan AI already has data on Spanish-language ads from more than 2,000 advertisers in the US. <a href="https://wearebumper.com/blog/2023/01/16/listen-time/">A better way to measure podcast success: Listen Time</a> by Jonas Woost for Bumper. In which Woost tells the story of YouTube switching from using views as a metric to ‘watch time,’ and suggesting a similar update to the podcasting industry as an alternative to the download. 
<a href="https://livewire.io/a-tale-of-two-bytes-prefix-vs-host-based-analytics/">A Tale of Two Bytes: Prefix vs. Host-based analytics</a> by John Spurlock for Livewire Labs. An excellent explainer on why third-party analytics download stats might be different from the downloads reported by one’s hosting company. 
<hr>
The Download is a production of <a href="http://soundsprofitable.com/">Sounds Profitable</a>. Today's episode was hosted by <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyaapurvsharma/">Shreya Sharma</a> and <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelabedoya/">Manuela Bedoya</a>, and the script was written by <a href="https://twitter.com/GavGaddis">Gavin Gaddis</a>.
<a href="https://twitter.com/bryanbarletta">Bryan Barletta</a> and <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomwebster/">Tom Webster</a> are the executive producers of The Download from Sounds Profitable.

The pace of change the podcast industry is undergoing is staggering. The implications for podcasters, hosting providers, podcast listening app developers, and advertisers and agencies are enormous. And so is the growth potential. Presented as a companion to the weekly newsletter of the same name, our podcast provides you with direct access to our narrated articles, interviews with industry experts, bleeding-edge research, and can't miss industry news recaps. That Sounds Profitable, right?

Assumptions and conventional wisdom will be challenged. Easy answers with no proof of efficacy will be exposed. Because the thinking that got podcast advertising close to a billion dollars annually will need to be drastically overhauled to bring in the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars podcast advertising deserves.

The pace of change the podcast industry is undergoing is staggering. The implications for podcasters, hosting providers, podcast listening app developers, and advertisers and agencies are enormous. And so is the growth potential. Presented as a companion to the weekly newsletter of the same name, our podcast provides you with direct access to our narrated articles, interviews with industry experts, bleeding-edge research, and can't miss industry news recaps. That Sounds Profitable, right?
Assumptions and conventional wisdom will be challenged. Easy answers with no proof of efficacy will be exposed. Because the thinking that got podcast advertising close to a billion dollars annually will need to be drastically overhauled to bring in the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars podcast advertising deserves.

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