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Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarckley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Here on the fastest show in politics.

Here on the fastest show in politics.

Thank you for making us part of your Monday here on Bloomberg Radio on the satellite channel one twenty one, or on YouTube however you get us. It's good to have you as part of our conversation. I'm going to assemble our panel in a moment as we turn our attention from AI here to mass deportations. I was wondering what we would see over the weekend as the Trump administration invoked the Alien Enemies Act and kicked out a statement saying, as much we talked about this, remember on Friday a bit, this would be the law last used in World War II. As a matter of fact, in the ten of Japanese Americans to immediately deport any Venezuelan citizen who the administration says is a member of the criminal gang trend Dee Arragua, you've heard Donald Trump mention this gang what they call a hybrid criminal state perpetrating an invasion. Therefore the use of this law to deport dozens of people over the weekend.

Thank you for making us part of your Monday here on Bloomberg Radio on the satellite channel one twenty one, or on YouTube however you get us. It's good to have you as part of our conversation. I'm going to assemble our panel in a moment as we turn our attention from AI here to mass deportations. I was wondering what we would see over the weekend as the Trump administration invoked the Alien Enemies Act and kicked out a statement saying, as much we talked about this, remember on Friday a bit, this would be the law last used in World War II. As a matter of fact, in the ten of Japanese Americans to immediately deport any Venezuelan citizen who the administration says is a member of the criminal gang trend Dee Arragua, you've heard Donald Trump mention this gang what they call a hybrid criminal state perpetrating an invasion. Therefore the use of this law to deport dozens of people over the weekend.

It went to.

It went to.

Court as these deportations began, five Venezuelans and federal custody filed the class action lawsuit. The US district court judge then issued a restraining order said you can't put them on airplanes. Here. The five who filed the class action lawsuit a lawsuit said it would violate federal law and the Constitution's guarantee to do process. We found ourselves in a situation where the judge said, turn the planes around and bring the detainees back. The White House chose not to because the airplane was over international waters. It did not get back to Venezuela. Actually went back to L Salvador. Two hundred and thirty eight detainees put inside a terrorism confinement center where they'll be held for at least a year. This has set up a massive legal standoff that some people think is going to go to the Supreme Court. This whole idea of using the Alien Enemies Act, and this would usher in the mass deportations that a lot of people have been waiting for We've been kind of seeing the administration nibble around the edges here, but the idea of putting hundreds of people on airplanes is more of what Donald Trump promised on the campaign trail. And it's where we begin our conversation with our political panel. Jenny Shanzano is whe Us Bloomberg Politics contributor, Democratic analyst and senior Democracy fellow with the Center for the Study of the Presidency in Congress, and our Republican strategist today. John Seaton is back founder CEO Echo Canyon Consulting. Great to see you both, hear Genie, is this going to go to the Supreme Court, because this would be one of the pillars, frankly, of the Trump campaign. Mass deportations. The work that Tom Holman is up to could hinge on what the court says here.

Court as these deportations began, five Venezuelans and federal custody filed the class action lawsuit. The US district court judge then issued a restraining order said you can't put them on airplanes. Here. The five who filed the class action lawsuit a lawsuit said it would violate federal law and the Constitution's guarantee to do process. We found ourselves in a situation where the judge said, turn the planes around and bring the detainees back. The White House chose not to because the airplane was over international waters. It did not get back to Venezuela. Actually went back to L Salvador. Two hundred and thirty eight detainees put inside a terrorism confinement center where they'll be held for at least a year. This has set up a massive legal standoff that some people think is going to go to the Supreme Court. This whole idea of using the Alien Enemies Act, and this would usher in the mass deportations that a lot of people have been waiting for We've been kind of seeing the administration nibble around the edges here, but the idea of putting hundreds of people on airplanes is more of what Donald Trump promised on the campaign trail. And it's where we begin our conversation with our political panel. Jenny Shanzano is whe Us Bloomberg Politics contributor, Democratic analyst and senior Democracy fellow with the Center for the Study of the Presidency in Congress, and our Republican strategist today. John Seaton is back founder CEO Echo Canyon Consulting. Great to see you both, hear Genie, is this going to go to the Supreme Court, because this would be one of the pillars, frankly, of the Trump campaign. Mass deportations. The work that Tom Holman is up to could hinge on what the court says here.

Yeah, I mean this very well could and I think that that is the only potential good news out of this very distressing story over the weekend is that the administration said it will file in the Supreme Court, which is what we want them to do. We want them to file and listen to court orders. Of course, the concern here, as you just went through it beautifully. Is that the order given over the weekend they did not listen to. And so yes, this very well could go to the court. And we really need to hope that the administration is not openly defying court orders. And that's of course the concern, and why the timing of the flights and when they landed and all of those kinds of things matters so much. And I would just say, we also need to think about where these folks were sent. President b. Kella is defined or described as a millennial authoritarian. He is defined as the coolest dictator in the world. He posts right after these folks landed and he hears about the order oops too late with a laughing emoji that Secretary of State Rubio actually retweets. That is a pretty startling turnabout for Secretary Rubio.

Yeah, I mean this very well could and I think that that is the only potential good news out of this very distressing story over the weekend is that the administration said it will file in the Supreme Court, which is what we want them to do. We want them to file and listen to court orders. Of course, the concern here, as you just went through it beautifully. Is that the order given over the weekend they did not listen to. And so yes, this very well could go to the court. And we really need to hope that the administration is not openly defying court orders. And that's of course the concern, and why the timing of the flights and when they landed and all of those kinds of things matters so much. And I would just say, we also need to think about where these folks were sent. President b. Kella is defined or described as a millennial authoritarian. He is defined as the coolest dictator in the world. He posts right after these folks landed and he hears about the order oops too late with a laughing emoji that Secretary of State Rubio actually retweets. That is a pretty startling turnabout for Secretary Rubio.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Elon Musk retweeted that as well. The oops too late tweet recirculated by the White House Communications director as well.

Elon Musk retweeted that as well. The oops too late tweet recirculated by the White House Communications director as well.

John Seaton, what do you think about this?

John Seaton, what do you think about this?

I think, if I'm reading Genie correctly here, it's not so much the deportation but the refusal to turn the plane around when a judge said as much. The White House has been really careful about abiding by the courts, saying that we'll do what the courts say, and we will we will exercise our to appeal. Was this a good look for the White House?

I think, if I'm reading Genie correctly here, it's not so much the deportation but the refusal to turn the plane around when a judge said as much. The White House has been really careful about abiding by the courts, saying that we'll do what the courts say, and we will we will exercise our to appeal. Was this a good look for the White House?

Right?

Right?

Well, given away the plane was and I understand that, you know, there's there's there's there's still some question there. It's unclear whether this was the right legal decision or not. And look, my my often disclaimer, I'm not a constitutional attorney, but I do know politics, and I think the politics of this are actually quite good for the White House. I think after years and years of an action when it comes to illegal immigration, and certainly legal immigration, immigrants who wind up causing mischief on our on our soil, joining gangs and that kind of thing, President Trump on the campaign trail was extremely clear that those folks would be would be sent out. And so as this winds its way through the courts, I do think that we need to keep our eye on the politics as well, and I think the politics here are really good for the Trump administration and the White House.

Well, given away the plane was and I understand that, you know, there's there's there's there's still some question there. It's unclear whether this was the right legal decision or not. And look, my my often disclaimer, I'm not a constitutional attorney, but I do know politics, and I think the politics of this are actually quite good for the White House. I think after years and years of an action when it comes to illegal immigration, and certainly legal immigration, immigrants who wind up causing mischief on our on our soil, joining gangs and that kind of thing, President Trump on the campaign trail was extremely clear that those folks would be would be sent out. And so as this winds its way through the courts, I do think that we need to keep our eye on the politics as well, and I think the politics here are really good for the Trump administration and the White House.

Ginny, we heard from the Press secretary following this. By the way, the judge made this disorder from the bench seven o'clock on a Saturday night. And I, by the way, to John's point, let's be clear, no one here is a legal analyst.

Ginny, we heard from the Press secretary following this. By the way, the judge made this disorder from the bench seven o'clock on a Saturday night. And I, by the way, to John's point, let's be clear, no one here is a legal analyst.

This is politics we're talking about.

This is politics we're talking about.

The White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt says the order, which had no lawful basis, was issued after the terrorist TDA aliens had already been removed from US territory. The written order referring to the judge here and the administration's actions do not conflict. Do they not have a case to make?

The White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt says the order, which had no lawful basis, was issued after the terrorist TDA aliens had already been removed from US territory. The written order referring to the judge here and the administration's actions do not conflict. Do they not have a case to make?

There?

There?

They have a case to make, and we'll have to hear there's the judges going to hear hold a hearing today on this and try to get down to what happened to Tounu and what the problem is. His remedies. His hands are pretty much tied. There's not a lot he could do beyond issuing a contempt order which really has no teeth. And that's again if he found that they had defied a court order. But the reality is is that this is why the politics being in Donald Trump's favor are why they are testing this aggrandizement of power with very very unsavory characters potentially, although again we don't know because there's been no proof that all one hundred and thirty plus of these people were members of this gang. But let's not forget this matters to all of us, because what have we been taught from the time we were school children that, as Felix Frankfurter said many years ago, the rights and liberties we enjoy we have gained on the backs of some very not nice people. That's a quote, and that is absolutely true. And you have to think about that. We get our liberties and rights because you have to give the same liberties and rights and due process to people who you don't like and people who may be unsavory as you do to yourself, because if you don't, you are in danger of losing them for all of us. So, yeah, it matters politically, but it also matters in a democracy, and it matters in a constitutional democracy, in particular, what.

They have a case to make, and we'll have to hear there's the judges going to hear hold a hearing today on this and try to get down to what happened to Tounu and what the problem is. His remedies. His hands are pretty much tied. There's not a lot he could do beyond issuing a contempt order which really has no teeth. And that's again if he found that they had defied a court order. But the reality is is that this is why the politics being in Donald Trump's favor are why they are testing this aggrandizement of power with very very unsavory characters potentially, although again we don't know because there's been no proof that all one hundred and thirty plus of these people were members of this gang. But let's not forget this matters to all of us, because what have we been taught from the time we were school children that, as Felix Frankfurter said many years ago, the rights and liberties we enjoy we have gained on the backs of some very not nice people. That's a quote, and that is absolutely true. And you have to think about that. We get our liberties and rights because you have to give the same liberties and rights and due process to people who you don't like and people who may be unsavory as you do to yourself, because if you don't, you are in danger of losing them for all of us. So, yeah, it matters politically, but it also matters in a democracy, and it matters in a constitutional democracy, in particular, what.

Happens, John Seaton, when the real mass deportations begin, assuming this takes place, and you start seeing family separations and so forth, when we're not talking about hardened criminals like you do in a gang from Venezuela like this to the politics, which is what you're pointing us to change, Well, yeah, I.

Happens, John Seaton, when the real mass deportations begin, assuming this takes place, and you start seeing family separations and so forth, when we're not talking about hardened criminals like you do in a gang from Venezuela like this to the politics, which is what you're pointing us to change, Well, yeah, I.

Think it's a fair question, and I do think that there's a lot of work to be done to first focus on those who have broken the law, those who are again causing trouble on our soil, those are in gangs, those who are you know, creating violence in our schools and in our communities. I do think that the the initial targets, if you will, of these deportations will be folks who really have been have been causing problems here and again, there have been years of not decades, of an action when it comes to when it comes to dealing with this crisis, and so I do think that that is where the focus is going to be, at least in the short term. And I really think again that that it will be applauded by by most voters, by most American people who really don't understand why the government can't do more to keep these communities safe. And so as it progresses, I do think that the administration will keep a very close eye on how the politics are playing. But again, I think, at least in the short term, as long as the targets are folks who are in gangs, who are causing trouble in the United States, I think that this is going to be a political politically advantageous to the White House.

Think it's a fair question, and I do think that there's a lot of work to be done to first focus on those who have broken the law, those who are again causing trouble on our soil, those are in gangs, those who are you know, creating violence in our schools and in our communities. I do think that the the initial targets, if you will, of these deportations will be folks who really have been have been causing problems here and again, there have been years of not decades, of an action when it comes to when it comes to dealing with this crisis, and so I do think that that is where the focus is going to be, at least in the short term. And I really think again that that it will be applauded by by most voters, by most American people who really don't understand why the government can't do more to keep these communities safe. And so as it progresses, I do think that the administration will keep a very close eye on how the politics are playing. But again, I think, at least in the short term, as long as the targets are folks who are in gangs, who are causing trouble in the United States, I think that this is going to be a political politically advantageous to the White House.

Do you see that, Genie.

Do you see that, Genie.

I know you don't disagree with it, but think of the traction that Donald Trump got talking about Aurora on the campaign trail, an apartment building full of hardened Venezuela and gang members. Is there a difference for you here politically speaking, when you have folks like this. We're just showing you images of them on YouTube here shackled being carried towards this detention center. These are pretty tough guys. We're talking about a lot different than, for instance, family separations that many foresaw when it came to mass deportations.

I know you don't disagree with it, but think of the traction that Donald Trump got talking about Aurora on the campaign trail, an apartment building full of hardened Venezuela and gang members. Is there a difference for you here politically speaking, when you have folks like this. We're just showing you images of them on YouTube here shackled being carried towards this detention center. These are pretty tough guys. We're talking about a lot different than, for instance, family separations that many foresaw when it came to mass deportations.

Yeah, but that's just the point. We don't know who they are. As far as we know. The government has not said what they're charged with. We don't even quite frankly, know if they are all members of this gang. We are just going on faith that the government is right on that. But that's why we have due process in the United States. You don't, going back well before the founding, just pick people off the street, put them in jail and throw away the key. Nor do you send them to El Salvador for supermax prisons that are now operating very much like Guantanamo Bay for a payment from a tyrant. You'd give them the due process rights that we fought a revolutionary war for and you provide them with that. And if they are indeed I have committed crimes, they are held responsible. But we follow a process. We are not a lawless country. And that's the point.

Yeah, but that's just the point. We don't know who they are. As far as we know. The government has not said what they're charged with. We don't even quite frankly, know if they are all members of this gang. We are just going on faith that the government is right on that. But that's why we have due process in the United States. You don't, going back well before the founding, just pick people off the street, put them in jail and throw away the key. Nor do you send them to El Salvador for supermax prisons that are now operating very much like Guantanamo Bay for a payment from a tyrant. You'd give them the due process rights that we fought a revolutionary war for and you provide them with that. And if they are indeed I have committed crimes, they are held responsible. But we follow a process. We are not a lawless country. And that's the point.

Well, we'll see what the judge says.

Well, we'll see what the judge says.

Because there's going to be another ruling on this coming, John Seaton, we only have one minute left. If this goes to the Supreme Court. To the politics stay in Donald Trump's favor.

Because there's going to be another ruling on this coming, John Seaton, we only have one minute left. If this goes to the Supreme Court. To the politics stay in Donald Trump's favor.

I think they do.

I think they do.

I think they do.

I think they do.

It's unclear obviously what the what the court will decide. It has proven to be quite an independent court, and even the Trump appointees on the Court have ruled against the White House in this in in in this administration. So but having said that, I think that people are going to you know, we'll see how the court decides. I do think the politics remain in the White House's favor as long as the people who were being sent out have have have kind of met this profile of of of of gang members and folks who have caused violence in our communities.

It's unclear obviously what the what the court will decide. It has proven to be quite an independent court, and even the Trump appointees on the Court have ruled against the White House in this in in in this administration. So but having said that, I think that people are going to you know, we'll see how the court decides. I do think the politics remain in the White House's favor as long as the people who were being sent out have have have kind of met this profile of of of of gang members and folks who have caused violence in our communities.

John Seaton and Geni Shanzino.

John Seaton and Geni Shanzino.

Our great panel will be back in our second hour on Balance of Power as we welcome our global television audience to the conversation. We're going to get into this much more, by the way, with Robert mcwad or, the constitutional lawyer practicing criminal defense civil rights lawyer, is going to join us from Arizona, always with a fascinating take on what's happening. I'm Joe Matthew Kayley lines on the way in next to so keep it right here on Bloomberg.

Our great panel will be back in our second hour on Balance of Power as we welcome our global television audience to the conversation. We're going to get into this much more, by the way, with Robert mcwad or, the constitutional lawyer practicing criminal defense civil rights lawyer, is going to join us from Arizona, always with a fascinating take on what's happening. I'm Joe Matthew Kayley lines on the way in next to so keep it right here on Bloomberg.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm. E'stern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm. E'stern on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

When Caroline Love at the White House Press Secretary begins the briefing which is expected this hour and will bring you any headlines from it, and as we already mentioned, she's likely to face questions as well around this deportation flight to Al Salvador and the alleged gang members who were on board of that aircraft and joining us now with more on that as Robert Warder, welcome back to Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Robert, he, of course, as a constitutional lawyer in practicing criminal defense attorney, when we consider the grounds the administration said it had here in effectively defying the order, they argue they did not. They say the order wasn't applicable because they were in international airspace already by the time that it came down.

When Caroline Love at the White House Press Secretary begins the briefing which is expected this hour and will bring you any headlines from it, and as we already mentioned, she's likely to face questions as well around this deportation flight to Al Salvador and the alleged gang members who were on board of that aircraft and joining us now with more on that as Robert Warder, welcome back to Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Robert, he, of course, as a constitutional lawyer in practicing criminal defense attorney, when we consider the grounds the administration said it had here in effectively defying the order, they argue they did not. They say the order wasn't applicable because they were in international airspace already by the time that it came down.

Will that hold water. No.

Will that hold water. No.

Let's say that, for instance, you have an airplane that blows up across the Atlantic Ocean. Everybody knows that the families of the victims can sue in federal court because there's still jurisdiction over that. Now, once it hits another territory, that's a different matter. Once it lands, then the courts lose jurisdiction. But that's really just a very weak argument that they're going to make that somehow because it's still international waters or over international waters, that the court does not have jurisdiction. That's just not how the law works.

Let's say that, for instance, you have an airplane that blows up across the Atlantic Ocean. Everybody knows that the families of the victims can sue in federal court because there's still jurisdiction over that. Now, once it hits another territory, that's a different matter. Once it lands, then the courts lose jurisdiction. But that's really just a very weak argument that they're going to make that somehow because it's still international waters or over international waters, that the court does not have jurisdiction. That's just not how the law works.

Well, there are a couple of things to talk about here, Robert, and it's great to have you back on Bloomberg. The idea of using the Alien Enemies Act in this case may also be challenged.

Well, there are a couple of things to talk about here, Robert, and it's great to have you back on Bloomberg. The idea of using the Alien Enemies Act in this case may also be challenged.

What should come of it, Oh, the Trump administration should lose. This had to have been concocted up by the Trump pr people. I'm guessing this was someplace in the deep recesses of the brain of Stephen Miller, that somehow he came up with this. The legal people would have told him not to do it. Of course, it doesn't matter to Donald Trump. He wants the sound bite. Look the alien It was part of the Alien Sedition Acts. They were passed in seventeen eighty nine by the Adams administration the Federalists. It was a big reason why John Adams lost that election to Thomas Jefferson, who promptly did not ever enforce those acts again. They were forced in the War of eighteen twelve and World War One, but in World War Two they were enforced as part of the justification and turing Japanese Americans in concentration crabs camps, which is a disgraceful episode in American legal history, and everybody now recognizes it as such. So the fact that they're doing these old statutes that have been discredited is one thing. The other thing is the statutes themselves say that it's only in time of war that these things apply. The United States was in a quasi war with France back in seventeen eighty nine, and then, of course the other three examples are actual wars. This is not a war. The government of Venezuela is not planning to invade the the United States of America, So this is just an absurd application of a discredited statute.

What should come of it, Oh, the Trump administration should lose. This had to have been concocted up by the Trump pr people. I'm guessing this was someplace in the deep recesses of the brain of Stephen Miller, that somehow he came up with this. The legal people would have told him not to do it. Of course, it doesn't matter to Donald Trump. He wants the sound bite. Look the alien It was part of the Alien Sedition Acts. They were passed in seventeen eighty nine by the Adams administration the Federalists. It was a big reason why John Adams lost that election to Thomas Jefferson, who promptly did not ever enforce those acts again. They were forced in the War of eighteen twelve and World War One, but in World War Two they were enforced as part of the justification and turing Japanese Americans in concentration crabs camps, which is a disgraceful episode in American legal history, and everybody now recognizes it as such. So the fact that they're doing these old statutes that have been discredited is one thing. The other thing is the statutes themselves say that it's only in time of war that these things apply. The United States was in a quasi war with France back in seventeen eighty nine, and then, of course the other three examples are actual wars. This is not a war. The government of Venezuela is not planning to invade the the United States of America, So this is just an absurd application of a discredited statute.

Okay, well, then are there other legal means through which you could see the administration accomplishing the same goal. Though they are saying that these are criminals, that they are deporting people who have inflicted harm or in their words, terrorized Americans, is there no actual legal mechanism to deport them through alternative means other than the Alien Enemies Act?

Okay, well, then are there other legal means through which you could see the administration accomplishing the same goal. Though they are saying that these are criminals, that they are deporting people who have inflicted harm or in their words, terrorized Americans, is there no actual legal mechanism to deport them through alternative means other than the Alien Enemies Act?

Well, of course there is now. First of all, they are saying they provided no proof. They haven't even provided the names of these young people who were being deported, so we don't know whether they are not. For all we know, they can march in and arrest the two of you and deport you now under this statute saying that you're somehow you know, enemy aliens. There is no control on this and that's why the statute's discredited. So there's nothing really to show that these are actually actual criminals. Now, criminals people committed crimes are specifically deportable statues at UC twelve twenty seven, and the administration has plenty of scope to do that, as the Biden administration did and the Obama administration did. They've always prioritized the deportation of criminal aliens, undocumented criminals. This rhetoric that Oh Biden let all these rapists and murders in is simply a lie. This rhetoric that other countries are emptying their jails, that is a lie that goes back to the Mario boat people in Cuba, way way back during I think it was either the Carter or Reagan administrations. It is simply absurd, and he perpetuates this lie to do something which is a blatant violation of the Constitution.

Well, of course there is now. First of all, they are saying they provided no proof. They haven't even provided the names of these young people who were being deported, so we don't know whether they are not. For all we know, they can march in and arrest the two of you and deport you now under this statute saying that you're somehow you know, enemy aliens. There is no control on this and that's why the statute's discredited. So there's nothing really to show that these are actually actual criminals. Now, criminals people committed crimes are specifically deportable statues at UC twelve twenty seven, and the administration has plenty of scope to do that, as the Biden administration did and the Obama administration did. They've always prioritized the deportation of criminal aliens, undocumented criminals. This rhetoric that Oh Biden let all these rapists and murders in is simply a lie. This rhetoric that other countries are emptying their jails, that is a lie that goes back to the Mario boat people in Cuba, way way back during I think it was either the Carter or Reagan administrations. It is simply absurd, and he perpetuates this lie to do something which is a blatant violation of the Constitution.

Well, we heard from the White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt saying the order was invalid.

Well, we heard from the White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt saying the order was invalid.

The judge's order.

The judge's order.

She wrote, quote, a single judge in a single city cannot direct the movements of an aircraft carrying foreign alien terrorists who were physically expelled from US soil weigh in on that as you choose, Robert, what is this going to the Supreme Court?

She wrote, quote, a single judge in a single city cannot direct the movements of an aircraft carrying foreign alien terrorists who were physically expelled from US soil weigh in on that as you choose, Robert, what is this going to the Supreme Court?

Oh? I think it very likely will go to the Supreme Court. Now, the Supreme Court has already said about the Alien Sedition Acts in nineteen sixty four in The New York Times versus Sullivan, that the acts have never actually gone to the court, but they have been rebuked in the court of history. In other words, the Court of History said that they've always been viewed as suspicious and unconstitutional. So that's the premise in the first place. The application here is absurd. Yeah, it will go to the Supreme Court. This argument about a single judge, you know, that's just the way it works. He issues a temper injunction that can be appealed in order for the courts to hear the actual merits where the administration can make its case. Nobody's being treated unfairly here at all. And by the way, the Trump administration and kind of the allies of Trump had no problem going down to a judge in the Southern District of Texas who was the only judge there to have all of its little things heard, to try to enjoin the Biden ministry from some of its immigration policies. That's simply how the system works, and they are just defying it. John Holman seems to be enjoying defining it well.

Oh? I think it very likely will go to the Supreme Court. Now, the Supreme Court has already said about the Alien Sedition Acts in nineteen sixty four in The New York Times versus Sullivan, that the acts have never actually gone to the court, but they have been rebuked in the court of history. In other words, the Court of History said that they've always been viewed as suspicious and unconstitutional. So that's the premise in the first place. The application here is absurd. Yeah, it will go to the Supreme Court. This argument about a single judge, you know, that's just the way it works. He issues a temper injunction that can be appealed in order for the courts to hear the actual merits where the administration can make its case. Nobody's being treated unfairly here at all. And by the way, the Trump administration and kind of the allies of Trump had no problem going down to a judge in the Southern District of Texas who was the only judge there to have all of its little things heard, to try to enjoin the Biden ministry from some of its immigration policies. That's simply how the system works, and they are just defying it. John Holman seems to be enjoying defining it well.

Speaking of the Biden administration, Robert at the very very end of it, really the last minutes of his presidency, a series of pardons were issued for those affiliated with the January sixth investigation in Congress who are doing that work. President Trump is now arguing, and this is a quote, that those pardons are void, vacant, and of no further force or effects, saying this is because the president used an auto pen to sign them. He hasn't presented any evidence of that. But where do you come down on the argument that it actually nullifies pardons, which are seen as one of the absolute powers of the presidency.

Speaking of the Biden administration, Robert at the very very end of it, really the last minutes of his presidency, a series of pardons were issued for those affiliated with the January sixth investigation in Congress who are doing that work. President Trump is now arguing, and this is a quote, that those pardons are void, vacant, and of no further force or effects, saying this is because the president used an auto pen to sign them. He hasn't presented any evidence of that. But where do you come down on the argument that it actually nullifies pardons, which are seen as one of the absolute powers of the presidency.

The Constitution says the pardons shall be vested in the President of the United States. It doesn't say how that's affected in different years. It's been affected in different ways. I mean, I suppose you could go back to the seventeen hundreds when they actually just use this seal instead of a signature to give the pardon. So I think that's simply absurd that they're arguing that the manner of signature is somehow a problem. I mean, frankly, if the president wanted to roll it up and put it on the claw of a passenger pigeon and send it out by pigeon, that's perfectly fine. Nothing in the constitution prohibits that Biden signed these pardons, and that's it. But you should also look at an eye to actually the politics. If the Trump administration seriously wants to go after Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and all those other people and Fauci, I mean, that would be a public relations nightmare for the Trump administration, because I think these people have backbone and they are perfectly happy to stand up to the whatever absurd charge that Donald Trump and Pam Bondi would concoct in their brains to go after them.

The Constitution says the pardons shall be vested in the President of the United States. It doesn't say how that's affected in different years. It's been affected in different ways. I mean, I suppose you could go back to the seventeen hundreds when they actually just use this seal instead of a signature to give the pardon. So I think that's simply absurd that they're arguing that the manner of signature is somehow a problem. I mean, frankly, if the president wanted to roll it up and put it on the claw of a passenger pigeon and send it out by pigeon, that's perfectly fine. Nothing in the constitution prohibits that Biden signed these pardons, and that's it. But you should also look at an eye to actually the politics. If the Trump administration seriously wants to go after Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and all those other people and Fauci, I mean, that would be a public relations nightmare for the Trump administration, because I think these people have backbone and they are perfectly happy to stand up to the whatever absurd charge that Donald Trump and Pam Bondi would concoct in their brains to go after them.

Wow, do they let you into Washington, Robert?

Wow, do they let you into Washington, Robert?

Are we ever going to see you in the nation's capital or you stay in Arizona for a reason.

Are we ever going to see you in the nation's capital or you stay in Arizona for a reason.

Well, we'll see what holds in the future. Politics as can be a dirty business.

Well, we'll see what holds in the future. Politics as can be a dirty business.

Well, I know that's right. But we like talking with you. We'd love to have you in studios sometimes. It's great to have you back here on Bloomberg TV and Radio, Robert mcwad or, constitutional lawyer, criminal defense, civil rights lawyer, Maricopa County Kaylee. We spent so much time talking with Robert during Donald Trump's legal challenges, remembering the special counsel Jack Smith, who would have thought that we'd be at this point talking to him about a sitting president still butting heads with the courts well.

Well, I know that's right. But we like talking with you. We'd love to have you in studios sometimes. It's great to have you back here on Bloomberg TV and Radio, Robert mcwad or, constitutional lawyer, criminal defense, civil rights lawyer, Maricopa County Kaylee. We spent so much time talking with Robert during Donald Trump's legal challenges, remembering the special counsel Jack Smith, who would have thought that we'd be at this point talking to him about a sitting president still butting heads with the courts well.

And ultimately having fate potentially decided by the Supreme Court. Remember, the part of the reason that those Trump cases had to go away was because of a court ruling that found he had at least partial immunity for actions taken as president. Now he's president once again, and his actions are once again in legal question.

And ultimately having fate potentially decided by the Supreme Court. Remember, the part of the reason that those Trump cases had to go away was because of a court ruling that found he had at least partial immunity for actions taken as president. Now he's president once again, and his actions are once again in legal question.

It's remarkable stuff, as we learn in real time.

It's remarkable stuff, as we learn in real time.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern Well Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern Well Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Thank you for being with us here on the Monday edition of Balance of Power on Bloomberg Radio on satellite channel one twenty one and on YouTube, where we always invite you to join us free of charge search Bloomberg Business News Live catch your a live stream on YouTube for the balance of the program. We've been talking a lot about Nvidia already today. We're going to be talking about it a lot all week, and certainly by the time we get to Jensen Wong's big speech at the Global Artificial Intelligence Conference for Developers the GtC. It starts today in San Jose, runs through the week. Wong expected to unveil the new Blackwell right. This is something called Blackwell Ultra, and we'll hear more about its rubin next generation GPU platform. The analysts are drooling over this. Maybe investors are too, but in Vidia has been a tough story, of course on Wall Street lately. You're going to hear a lot of people here from lots of people claim to be experts, a lot of stock analysts right talk about the technical aspects, the fundies, whether you should buy it or sell it, and at what level, whether the AI things run out of steam. You hear this stuff all the time. But we want to right now, on this Monday, before we ever get that far, to just take a step back, turn away from the stock for a minute, turn away from your brokerage account, and listen to an important conversation with a real expert here, not just about Nvidio, but about the AI space overall. It's a conversation that we kind of started here. Think of this as a sequel with Gregory Allen from our conversation following what happened on deep Seek Monday. We sat together right here on deep Seek Monday, when the market was falling on a bed, and they said, this whole AI thing, this whole construct is somehow false. Since then, of course, we've seen the hyperscalers ramp up their spending plans by tens of billions, and I'm sure we're going to hear a lot more about that from Jensen Wog.

Thank you for being with us here on the Monday edition of Balance of Power on Bloomberg Radio on satellite channel one twenty one and on YouTube, where we always invite you to join us free of charge search Bloomberg Business News Live catch your a live stream on YouTube for the balance of the program. We've been talking a lot about Nvidia already today. We're going to be talking about it a lot all week, and certainly by the time we get to Jensen Wong's big speech at the Global Artificial Intelligence Conference for Developers the GtC. It starts today in San Jose, runs through the week. Wong expected to unveil the new Blackwell right. This is something called Blackwell Ultra, and we'll hear more about its rubin next generation GPU platform. The analysts are drooling over this. Maybe investors are too, but in Vidia has been a tough story, of course on Wall Street lately. You're going to hear a lot of people here from lots of people claim to be experts, a lot of stock analysts right talk about the technical aspects, the fundies, whether you should buy it or sell it, and at what level, whether the AI things run out of steam. You hear this stuff all the time. But we want to right now, on this Monday, before we ever get that far, to just take a step back, turn away from the stock for a minute, turn away from your brokerage account, and listen to an important conversation with a real expert here, not just about Nvidio, but about the AI space overall. It's a conversation that we kind of started here. Think of this as a sequel with Gregory Allen from our conversation following what happened on deep Seek Monday. We sat together right here on deep Seek Monday, when the market was falling on a bed, and they said, this whole AI thing, this whole construct is somehow false. Since then, of course, we've seen the hyperscalers ramp up their spending plans by tens of billions, and I'm sure we're going to hear a lot more about that from Jensen Wog.

This week.

This week.

Gregory Allen bored down into this whole thing to come up with an amazing report. This is a thirteen thousand word dive on Deep Seek, Huawei export controls, and the future of the US China AI race, Gregory Allen writing, it would be a great mistake for policymakers to ignore Deep Seek or to suggest that its accomplishments are merely a combination of intellectual property theft and misleading Chinese propaganda policymakers. He says, need to understand that even while deep Seek has in some cases simply implemented innovations already known to USAI companies, it has also demonstrated genuine technological breakthroughs of its own that deserve careful consideration as the Trump administration sets its AI policy agenda. He's with us in studio once again, Gregory. Great to see you, director of the Wadwani AI Center at CSIS.

Gregory Allen bored down into this whole thing to come up with an amazing report. This is a thirteen thousand word dive on Deep Seek, Huawei export controls, and the future of the US China AI race, Gregory Allen writing, it would be a great mistake for policymakers to ignore Deep Seek or to suggest that its accomplishments are merely a combination of intellectual property theft and misleading Chinese propaganda policymakers. He says, need to understand that even while deep Seek has in some cases simply implemented innovations already known to USAI companies, it has also demonstrated genuine technological breakthroughs of its own that deserve careful consideration as the Trump administration sets its AI policy agenda. He's with us in studio once again, Gregory. Great to see you, director of the Wadwani AI Center at CSIS.

How did I do?

How did I do?

Dude? Greg? And thanks so much for having It's.

Dude? Greg? And thanks so much for having It's.

Great to see you two.

Great to see you two.

We had an overwhelming response I can say this on the air and specifically on YouTube to your most recent interview with us here, and we wanted to continue the conversation because you've been doing a lot of work as we wait to hear from Jensen Wong with what we have learned from deep sec. And after what you just said, you hear a lot of guys talk about what inning we're in, because on deep Seek Monday they thought the game had just ended. When you hear from Facebook, from Meta, from Google and the others, we're going to put in another sixty billion. We're going to make the biggest data center you ever saw in your life, the size of Manhattan.

We had an overwhelming response I can say this on the air and specifically on YouTube to your most recent interview with us here, and we wanted to continue the conversation because you've been doing a lot of work as we wait to hear from Jensen Wong with what we have learned from deep sec. And after what you just said, you hear a lot of guys talk about what inning we're in, because on deep Seek Monday they thought the game had just ended. When you hear from Facebook, from Meta, from Google and the others, we're going to put in another sixty billion. We're going to make the biggest data center you ever saw in your life, the size of Manhattan.

What inning are we in?

What inning are we in?

Oh, I think we're at most at the bottom of the third AI story is still unfolding, And just because every single inning has continued to be shocking doesn't mean we're done yet. When I think about the deep Seek news and its impact on Nvidia, there were two big arguments out there. One was the idea that, oh, my gosh, if we can be so efficient in using these mos, then maybe we need fewer Invidia chips. That was obviously a garbage disc right, indeed, an AWS cloud provisioning of GPUs. The prices went up that week, right, So as soon as people said, wow, I can be a lot more efficient in using these chips, they wanted more of those chips, not fewer of those chips. But there was a second line of analysis, which is what about the competitive moat that surrounds in Vidia? Is in Vidia really the only game in town? And that's what I dove into with this paper, which is about the potential alliance of deep Seek and Huawei to create an alternative, cheap chip ecosystem that could finally achieve the relevant network effects, the relevant economies of scale to be a credible competitor to the Nvidia Kuda software mode.

Oh, I think we're at most at the bottom of the third AI story is still unfolding, And just because every single inning has continued to be shocking doesn't mean we're done yet. When I think about the deep Seek news and its impact on Nvidia, there were two big arguments out there. One was the idea that, oh, my gosh, if we can be so efficient in using these mos, then maybe we need fewer Invidia chips. That was obviously a garbage disc right, indeed, an AWS cloud provisioning of GPUs. The prices went up that week, right, So as soon as people said, wow, I can be a lot more efficient in using these chips, they wanted more of those chips, not fewer of those chips. But there was a second line of analysis, which is what about the competitive moat that surrounds in Vidia? Is in Vidia really the only game in town? And that's what I dove into with this paper, which is about the potential alliance of deep Seek and Huawei to create an alternative, cheap chip ecosystem that could finally achieve the relevant network effects, the relevant economies of scale to be a credible competitor to the Nvidia Kuda software mode.

Wow, this is a horror movie in the making. In that world, are we talking about a competitor that's still using in Vidia chips by routing them around some third party or something, or in fact working with Taiwan Semiconductor to illegally make chips using technology they shouldn't have.

Wow, this is a horror movie in the making. In that world, are we talking about a competitor that's still using in Vidia chips by routing them around some third party or something, or in fact working with Taiwan Semiconductor to illegally make chips using technology they shouldn't have.

Because you touch on that.

Because you touch on that.

This is a big, big problem for the export controls. So if you remember, we don't want China to have Advanced AI, so we're not going to sell them Advanced AI chips. That means we also have to not sell them the equipment used to make those chips, but we also can't let them rent that equipment from places like Taiwan TSMC. And it turns out what we've deduced in this report from sources that I spoke to, that TSMC made more than two million Advanced AI chips for Huawei. Now this is the Ascend series of chips which Huawei's chip designers have been working on for a long time, and Smick, a company in China is trying to manufacture them but struggling mightily. So that assist from TSMC, which is great at making advanced node logic semiconductors. Getting two million of these chips from them is a big, big leg up. Now that's not the end of the story. Nvidia can still compete. They still have strong advantages. Their chips are not only higher performing, but they're backed by a much more robust software ecosystem, which makes it more desirable to develop on these chips. But if I was in Vidia, this is the part of the deep seek story that I would be concerned about, not the efficiency game.

This is a big, big problem for the export controls. So if you remember, we don't want China to have Advanced AI, so we're not going to sell them Advanced AI chips. That means we also have to not sell them the equipment used to make those chips, but we also can't let them rent that equipment from places like Taiwan TSMC. And it turns out what we've deduced in this report from sources that I spoke to, that TSMC made more than two million Advanced AI chips for Huawei. Now this is the Ascend series of chips which Huawei's chip designers have been working on for a long time, and Smick, a company in China is trying to manufacture them but struggling mightily. So that assist from TSMC, which is great at making advanced node logic semiconductors. Getting two million of these chips from them is a big, big leg up. Now that's not the end of the story. Nvidia can still compete. They still have strong advantages. Their chips are not only higher performing, but they're backed by a much more robust software ecosystem, which makes it more desirable to develop on these chips. But if I was in Vidia, this is the part of the deep seek story that I would be concerned about, not the efficiency game.

Or if you're the Trump White House, should it not be as well? We're cutting deals with TSMC to make foundries here, when what should we be sanctioning this company?

Or if you're the Trump White House, should it not be as well? We're cutting deals with TSMC to make foundries here, when what should we be sanctioning this company?

US policymakers were enraged to learn this news, and that was the right response, right, we don't want our allies, people who are under the US defense umbrella, providing national security critical capabilities to China, and that's what's going on here now TSMC. Of course they'll say that this was a shell company, meaning that we didn't know it was Huawei, it was somebody pretending not to be Huawei. But when you're making two million advanced semiconductor of chips amazing, what kind of due diligence practices do you have in place. If you can't detect a scale sale that size being Huawei in discuss.

US policymakers were enraged to learn this news, and that was the right response, right, we don't want our allies, people who are under the US defense umbrella, providing national security critical capabilities to China, and that's what's going on here now TSMC. Of course they'll say that this was a shell company, meaning that we didn't know it was Huawei, it was somebody pretending not to be Huawei. But when you're making two million advanced semiconductor of chips amazing, what kind of due diligence practices do you have in place. If you can't detect a scale sale that size being Huawei in discuss.

So then yeah, what do we have in place? And what does this mean for export controls? This is like a joke.

So then yeah, what do we have in place? And what does this mean for export controls? This is like a joke.

So the Biden administration, this actually happened in the Biden administration era when these chips were being manufactured, and they introduced a new rule called the Foundry Rule, one of the last actions they took on export controls before leaving office, and it effectively moves all of TSMC from a blacklist model, you know, the entity list. You're not allowed to sell to Huawei, You're not allowed to sell to X, to a white list model. You're only allowed to sell to the good guys. And we will tell you who the list of good guys is. So the idea that Huawei could just create another shell company called, you know, Happy Chipco doesn't matter. You're not on the white list. It doesn't matter if you promise not to be Huawei, and any new companies are going to have to be reviewed under a very diligent thing. That's the mess that TSMC has gotten itself into. This failure was so big that things are never going to be the same for them. In terms of doing due diligence on new customers.

So the Biden administration, this actually happened in the Biden administration era when these chips were being manufactured, and they introduced a new rule called the Foundry Rule, one of the last actions they took on export controls before leaving office, and it effectively moves all of TSMC from a blacklist model, you know, the entity list. You're not allowed to sell to Huawei, You're not allowed to sell to X, to a white list model. You're only allowed to sell to the good guys. And we will tell you who the list of good guys is. So the idea that Huawei could just create another shell company called, you know, Happy Chipco doesn't matter. You're not on the white list. It doesn't matter if you promise not to be Huawei, and any new companies are going to have to be reviewed under a very diligent thing. That's the mess that TSMC has gotten itself into. This failure was so big that things are never going to be the same for them. In terms of doing due diligence on new customers.

Incredible to think that this is going on here. And if you're Jensen Wong, you're wondering about the security of your own ip here of course.

Incredible to think that this is going on here. And if you're Jensen Wong, you're wondering about the security of your own ip here of course.

Yes, I mean, in Vidia has been the victim of major cyber attacks that got pretty dang close to the crown jewels. Now, counterintuitively, these were not even state run actors. This is reporting done by Wired a few years ago. These were folks who just wanted to use in Vidia chips for bitcoin mining, and they were mad when in Nvidia adopted a policy prohibiting that, and so they started cyber attacking in VideA and saying we will release all your critical intellectual property until and unless, you know, you lift this bitcoin mining bail.

Yes, I mean, in Vidia has been the victim of major cyber attacks that got pretty dang close to the crown jewels. Now, counterintuitively, these were not even state run actors. This is reporting done by Wired a few years ago. These were folks who just wanted to use in Vidia chips for bitcoin mining, and they were mad when in Nvidia adopted a policy prohibiting that, and so they started cyber attacking in VideA and saying we will release all your critical intellectual property until and unless, you know, you lift this bitcoin mining bail.

I mean, that is shocking that just a.

I mean, that is shocking that just a.

Cyber criminal outfit was able to get so close to the crown jewels of Invidia. It makes you wonder when we're dealing with a nation state such as China and they have their crosshairs aimed at Nvidia, at Open AI, at everybody who has really valuable AI intellectual property. It's a big challenge, woit.

Cyber criminal outfit was able to get so close to the crown jewels of Invidia. It makes you wonder when we're dealing with a nation state such as China and they have their crosshairs aimed at Nvidia, at Open AI, at everybody who has really valuable AI intellectual property. It's a big challenge, woit.

This is all pretty scary stuff. We're going to go into overtime with you. You don't have to leave yet, right because this is too important and our listeners and viewers find this incredibly compelling when you consider the findings that you have made here. It also suggests that this whole deep seek revelation was based on theft. Is that not the truth IP theft? Actual hardware theft? Otherwise it wouldn't have taken place. But you're saying that doesn't matter. They still did things with these tools that.

This is all pretty scary stuff. We're going to go into overtime with you. You don't have to leave yet, right because this is too important and our listeners and viewers find this incredibly compelling when you consider the findings that you have made here. It also suggests that this whole deep seek revelation was based on theft. Is that not the truth IP theft? Actual hardware theft? Otherwise it wouldn't have taken place. But you're saying that doesn't matter. They still did things with these tools that.

Are worth our attention.

Are worth our attention.

So this is what's interesting.

So this is what's interesting.

The trope about Chinese tech companies used to be they cannot innovate, they can only copy.

The trope about Chinese tech companies used to be they cannot innovate, they can only copy.

That's right.

That's right.

I think the right way to think about deep seek is they copy when they can, and they innovate when they can. It is an all of the above approach to competition with the United States, and that's what makes it such a real challenge. Now, if you're somebody like Nvidia, you see deep sek making highly efficient AI models, that's great. That means more people are going to want to use your chips. If you're in Vidia, the real threat is Huawei because Huawei has advanced AI chip design that they're trying to get the Chinese government to force everybody to buy on because in Video would love to still sell in China, they have to sell a degraded version of their chip. That's legal under export control law. But Huawei says, we want the Chinese government to not even allow us to buy these degraded in Vidia chips. We want them to force Chinese customers to buy Huawei chips. So now you're down to what is the actual competitive advantage of Invidia, and it comes down to software.

I think the right way to think about deep seek is they copy when they can, and they innovate when they can. It is an all of the above approach to competition with the United States, and that's what makes it such a real challenge. Now, if you're somebody like Nvidia, you see deep sek making highly efficient AI models, that's great. That means more people are going to want to use your chips. If you're in Vidia, the real threat is Huawei because Huawei has advanced AI chip design that they're trying to get the Chinese government to force everybody to buy on because in Video would love to still sell in China, they have to sell a degraded version of their chip. That's legal under export control law. But Huawei says, we want the Chinese government to not even allow us to buy these degraded in Vidia chips. We want them to force Chinese customers to buy Huawei chips. So now you're down to what is the actual competitive advantage of Invidia, and it comes down to software.

In Vidia.

In Vidia.

The reason why they're worth so much money is not that their chips are so amazing. If you look at an AMD, which is an American competitive video and an Invidia chip, they're both great chips on the hardware side. Where Nvidia has a massive edge is on the software side. Everything is compatible with Invidia chips. They're backwards compatible, they're forwards compatible. All the big AI software development environments are compatible within video. And if you leave in Nvidia chips, you have to leave that hat software ecosystem and all of your software starts breaking. You have to create a bunch of new stuff from scratch. That's what's dangerous, and that's what Huawei wants to attack and what they would love to use deep Seek to jump start. Can they get deep Seek to start developing attractive AI software on the Huawei ecosystem to start building some critical scale economies network effects in this alternative ecosystem. That's what in Video should be worried about on a two year time frame, on a five year timeframe, on a ten year.

The reason why they're worth so much money is not that their chips are so amazing. If you look at an AMD, which is an American competitive video and an Invidia chip, they're both great chips on the hardware side. Where Nvidia has a massive edge is on the software side. Everything is compatible with Invidia chips. They're backwards compatible, they're forwards compatible. All the big AI software development environments are compatible within video. And if you leave in Nvidia chips, you have to leave that hat software ecosystem and all of your software starts breaking. You have to create a bunch of new stuff from scratch. That's what's dangerous, and that's what Huawei wants to attack and what they would love to use deep Seek to jump start. Can they get deep Seek to start developing attractive AI software on the Huawei ecosystem to start building some critical scale economies network effects in this alternative ecosystem. That's what in Video should be worried about on a two year time frame, on a five year timeframe, on a ten year.

Two So if you're Jensen Wong, this is a real bummer because you wish you could sell your chips to Huawei or have that market right, But if it were shut down, if China cut off, and it's pretty close to being there already, I guess for a company like in Video, as opposed to some of the others that make lower tech chips, wouldn't the company continue to.

Two So if you're Jensen Wong, this is a real bummer because you wish you could sell your chips to Huawei or have that market right, But if it were shut down, if China cut off, and it's pretty close to being there already, I guess for a company like in Video, as opposed to some of the others that make lower tech chips, wouldn't the company continue to.

Grow at an enormous rate.

Grow at an enormous rate.

We're gonna hear about backlogs, right, We're gonna hear about a pipeline. We're gonna hear about Reuben Blackwell Ultra that they can't make them fast.

We're gonna hear about backlogs, right, We're gonna hear about a pipeline. We're gonna hear about Reuben Blackwell Ultra that they can't make them fast.

Enough exactly, So who cares about if you're in Video.

Enough exactly, So who cares about if you're in Video.

For every chip that comes off the assembly line designed by Invidia, there are ten people saying, please let me buy that chip because they are supply constrained they are not demand constrained. So that is the current situation that they're facing, and it will continue to be the situation for many years in the future. It's really if you're thinking about the long term thing, and remember about in Nvidia's valuation, Almost all of the value in the stock price is the terminal valuation, not the five next years of cash flow generation. It's what they think is going to be the future. And in Video is saying, right now, we have these competitive dynamics in place where it seems clear that there could not even be a company that could give rise to an alternative ecosystem that's anywhere near as competitive as ours. And as they're looking at this Huawei Deepseak alliance for the first time, they're seeing this is not much right now, but this could grow into something pretty significant.

For every chip that comes off the assembly line designed by Invidia, there are ten people saying, please let me buy that chip because they are supply constrained they are not demand constrained. So that is the current situation that they're facing, and it will continue to be the situation for many years in the future. It's really if you're thinking about the long term thing, and remember about in Nvidia's valuation, Almost all of the value in the stock price is the terminal valuation, not the five next years of cash flow generation. It's what they think is going to be the future. And in Video is saying, right now, we have these competitive dynamics in place where it seems clear that there could not even be a company that could give rise to an alternative ecosystem that's anywhere near as competitive as ours. And as they're looking at this Huawei Deepseak alliance for the first time, they're seeing this is not much right now, but this could grow into something pretty significant.

This is incredible. Uh.

This is incredible. Uh.

I had a very smart analyst suggest to me that when in Video rolls out Blackwell Ultra this week, that we shouldn't be taken by this.

I had a very smart analyst suggest to me that when in Video rolls out Blackwell Ultra this week, that we shouldn't be taken by this.

It's just another very expensive chip.

It's just another very expensive chip.

When in Vidia starts putting forth new cheap chips that do this, that's when you have the breakthrough.

When in Vidia starts putting forth new cheap chips that do this, that's when you have the breakthrough.

Is that true?

Is that true?

Well, I think they're doing both things simultaneously. I mean, they have the chip that costs hundreds of dollars and they have the chips that cost tens of thousands of dollars, and overall, I think they are still competitive in both markets. What your analyst might have been talking about is in video's gap in mobile. Right, if you think about the next generation iPhone, it's going to have Apple intelligence on it. Is that being delivered by in video chips. No, it's being delivered by chips designed by Apple. And if you think about that, you know in video is dominant in the data center. They're very strong in PC, they're very strong in laptop. But on mobile, that's sort of the question mark for what does the future of intelligence? And Qualcom would love to say we're going to win. Apple would love to say we're going to win, but the future is unwritten here and that's the question mark for in video all right.

Well, I think they're doing both things simultaneously. I mean, they have the chip that costs hundreds of dollars and they have the chips that cost tens of thousands of dollars, and overall, I think they are still competitive in both markets. What your analyst might have been talking about is in video's gap in mobile. Right, if you think about the next generation iPhone, it's going to have Apple intelligence on it. Is that being delivered by in video chips. No, it's being delivered by chips designed by Apple. And if you think about that, you know in video is dominant in the data center. They're very strong in PC, they're very strong in laptop. But on mobile, that's sort of the question mark for what does the future of intelligence? And Qualcom would love to say we're going to win. Apple would love to say we're going to win, but the future is unwritten here and that's the question mark for in video all right.

Spending time with Greg Reallen here from the wad Wani AI Center csis on balance of power. It's such a great conversation. We wanted to bring this into overtime for you when we consider where we're going here in our remaining couple of moments with the future of AI and what this means for the Trump administration.

Spending time with Greg Reallen here from the wad Wani AI Center csis on balance of power. It's such a great conversation. We wanted to bring this into overtime for you when we consider where we're going here in our remaining couple of moments with the future of AI and what this means for the Trump administration.

You're laying out some really important ideas.

You're laying out some really important ideas.

Is this White House capable of embracing them and turning it into policy.

Is this White House capable of embracing them and turning it into policy.

So I think this administration, if you look at who they've hired, especially in roles that are relevant to export controls, that are irrelevant to technology competition with China, it is technology. It is China hawk, China hawk, China hawk, China hawk. I mean the most hawkish people in the Biden administration. People I know in the Trump administration said, you know, they would be a dove compared to the kind of folks that we're bringing in here. But there is a question between political will and government capacity. And if you look at the organization that's in charge of enforcing export controls, they're looking to cut staff right now when what they should be doing is increasing staff. And then secondarily, if you look at the Department of Justice, the group that has the specific responsibility for enforcing export controls, that group has just been disbanded and the Department of Justice has not yet said where those duties and responsibilities are going to be divvied up. So we are in a position where we have bet the farm on export controls as a critical means of technology competition with China. But the government capacity to execute that strategy is being removed, and there's no plan right now to what's going to bolster it back. So I'm really urging folks, I know in the Trump administration fix this. We need a stronger government ability to do this. This is not a great place for like money saving cuts, because you're going to save pennies and you're going to lose hundreds of billions of dollars in American you know values.

So I think this administration, if you look at who they've hired, especially in roles that are relevant to export controls, that are irrelevant to technology competition with China, it is technology. It is China hawk, China hawk, China hawk, China hawk. I mean the most hawkish people in the Biden administration. People I know in the Trump administration said, you know, they would be a dove compared to the kind of folks that we're bringing in here. But there is a question between political will and government capacity. And if you look at the organization that's in charge of enforcing export controls, they're looking to cut staff right now when what they should be doing is increasing staff. And then secondarily, if you look at the Department of Justice, the group that has the specific responsibility for enforcing export controls, that group has just been disbanded and the Department of Justice has not yet said where those duties and responsibilities are going to be divvied up. So we are in a position where we have bet the farm on export controls as a critical means of technology competition with China. But the government capacity to execute that strategy is being removed, and there's no plan right now to what's going to bolster it back. So I'm really urging folks, I know in the Trump administration fix this. We need a stronger government ability to do this. This is not a great place for like money saving cuts, because you're going to save pennies and you're going to lose hundreds of billions of dollars in American you know values.

This might have to be our next conversation because this is incredibly important right now, the extent to which the administration is paying attention to this, because it has so many plates spinning at once.

This might have to be our next conversation because this is incredibly important right now, the extent to which the administration is paying attention to this, because it has so many plates spinning at once.

Let's get back to the toy store quickly before you leave.

Let's get back to the toy store quickly before you leave.

In our remaining moment here, you say we're at the I believe bottom of the third.

In our remaining moment here, you say we're at the I believe bottom of the third.

I've heard a lot about reference turning to inference. What's next? What is the next breakthrough that we need to see in AI?

I've heard a lot about reference turning to inference. What's next? What is the next breakthrough that we need to see in AI?

Well, I think so far we've seen AI become increasingly capable at generating text that is actually a value. Recall that Sam Altman said in early twenty twenty four that the performance of his system was quote mildly embarrassing at best. Right, that was not that long ago. Now he's saying it's among the top one hundred programmers on planet Earth. You've seen that the hirings for people who are generating computer code are way down as people are realizing that these systems can generate extremely high quality code almost instantaneously. So the labor market disruptions from AI. They're here now, and as those capabilities first go after engineering focused, tax we're tasks were formal verification as possible, they're going to spread to ever more parts of the economy, and that's going to lead to a wave of adoption AI and generating real value. It's not a toy anymore now, it's really solving business problems.

Well, I think so far we've seen AI become increasingly capable at generating text that is actually a value. Recall that Sam Altman said in early twenty twenty four that the performance of his system was quote mildly embarrassing at best. Right, that was not that long ago. Now he's saying it's among the top one hundred programmers on planet Earth. You've seen that the hirings for people who are generating computer code are way down as people are realizing that these systems can generate extremely high quality code almost instantaneously. So the labor market disruptions from AI. They're here now, and as those capabilities first go after engineering focused, tax we're tasks were formal verification as possible, they're going to spread to ever more parts of the economy, and that's going to lead to a wave of adoption AI and generating real value. It's not a toy anymore now, it's really solving business problems.

That's what it'll be on the toy department. Yes, you have three young kids, will they write all of their school essays using AI? How does this not take over everything that we do? That's driven from an intellectual point, I.

That's what it'll be on the toy department. Yes, you have three young kids, will they write all of their school essays using AI? How does this not take over everything that we do? That's driven from an intellectual point, I.

Think it's really worth asking. I mean, one thing that you could tell yourself is, in the nineteen fifties, there was no such thing as a job called a programmer. Right as we created new technologies, we created new jobs associated with those technologies, but we do have to ask ourselves the question, as these things become more and more capable, and to use the words of folks like Sam Altman or other folks, these are going to be capable of doing anything that a computer can do, anything that a human can do in front.

Think it's really worth asking. I mean, one thing that you could tell yourself is, in the nineteen fifties, there was no such thing as a job called a programmer. Right as we created new technologies, we created new jobs associated with those technologies, but we do have to ask ourselves the question, as these things become more and more capable, and to use the words of folks like Sam Altman or other folks, these are going to be capable of doing anything that a computer can do, anything that a human can do in front.

Of a laptop.

Of a laptop.

That then begs the question, what are the next jobs? What is the future of education? And while there's plenty of exciting opportunities of using AI for one on one tutoring type things to strengthen education, there's this question, what is the goalpost? What is the job that you are aiming at? And I think it's very unclear just how capable these systems are getting and what's going to be left for humans to do When my kids, you know, graduate from high school, graduate from college.

That then begs the question, what are the next jobs? What is the future of education? And while there's plenty of exciting opportunities of using AI for one on one tutoring type things to strengthen education, there's this question, what is the goalpost? What is the job that you are aiming at? And I think it's very unclear just how capable these systems are getting and what's going to be left for humans to do When my kids, you know, graduate from high school, graduate from college.

Boy, I can't wait to we all can't wait to get the answers to these questions right. Just let me know when I need the neuralink chip. So I asked Gregory Allen, great to see you as always from CSIS. We brought them back for you and went into overtime and another fascinating conversation with the director of the Wawani AI Center at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. We'll keep tabs on Jensen Wong and of course the Big and Nvidia conference over the course of the week.