Balance of PowerWatch Joe and Kailey LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF.
Bloomberg Washington Correspondents Joe Mathieu and Kailey Leinz deliver insight and analysis on the latest headlines from the White House and Capitol Hill, including conversations with influential lawmakers and key figures in politics and policy. On this edition, Joe and Kailey speak with:
- Bloomberg Senior Editor Michael Shepard about President Donald Trump's first actions in office.
- American Action Forum President Douglas Holtz-Eakin about spending bills in Congress and Trump's economic policy proposals.
- Republican Congressman Chuck Fleischmann of Tennessee about where House Republicans can support Trump's policy agenda.
- Bloomberg Politics Contributors Rick Davis and Jeanne Sheehan Zaino ahead of Trump's meeting with House Speaker Mike Johnson and Senate Majority Leader John Thune.
- University of Baltimore School of Law Professor Kim Wehle about presidential pardons.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarclay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.
Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Balance of Power. Yes, the markets are back open. Yes, it's the day after Inauguration day here in Washington, DC kind of still feels the same, though you can take it from me. Horrible traffic getting into town. Is that all the federal workers afraid they're going to get fired, got to get in the office. Donald Trump shutting streets down, shuttling around the nation's capital. He's been at the National Cathedral for a bit here in National Prayer service this morning. That kicks off his first full day on the job. Live view right now of the Potus at the National Cathedral, and we'll be following him throughout the day. Has got a couple of things scheduled here, including a very important meeting at the White House that'll get going a little bit after the broadcast on the early edition here of Balance of Power is going to sit down with Congressional leadership John Thune, Mike Johnson, Majority Leader, and House Speaker. They're talking about, of course, reconciliation and what the first steps are going to be here when it comes to legislating. And then is the threat at least of a news conference. We'll see about that round four thirty pm Eastern time. So that'll walk us into the late edition of Balance of Power here on Bloomberg. It has been Newsy already before we even get to Donald Trump will update a couple of things quickly on confirmations. The Senate Finance Committee voting to advance Scott Bessen's nomination, so that's often running. He goes now to the floor, by the way, sixteen to eleven. If you're keeping track on your home game. At least Dephonic in confirmation hearings today, the VA pick Doug Collins, who no one is talking about, up for his confirmation hearing today. And you probably heard by now that Marco Rubio is now the new Secretary of State, having been in now to serve, making him the first member of President Trump's new cabinet to get rolling here. So we've got a lot going on, remembering that We had a lot going on yesterday if you were with us as part of our special coverage, not only do we cover a swearing in and an inaugural address, we covered a series of other impromptu speeches, a big rally, and the signing of a couple hundred executive orders.
Remember we're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on Mexico and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people.
China charges us staffs, and we charged them very little except for what I did.
I put a lot on.
We took in hundreds of billions of dollars, but until I came along, China never paid ten cents to this country. I'm fine with legal immigration.
I like it.
We needed because we're gonna have a lot of companies coming in to avoid tariffs. We're the only country in the world that does this with birthright, as you know, and it's just absolutely ridiculous. NATO has to pay more money. NATO has to pay five percent. World Health ripped us off. Everybody rips off the United States, and that's it. It's not going to happen anymore.
Just a sampling of his time back in the Oval Office. Salute to Josh Wingrove, by the way, Bloomberg's own josh Win Grove. If you watch that video, you hear the booming voice of josh in the Oval office and made quite a bit of news here on tariffs because we're not sure exactly what's going to happen on the first of February, and that might be a good place to start our conversation with Mike Shepard back with us now following his duty on Bloomberg Technology. Great to see you here at the desk as always, you know, I pull you right into the middle of politics, whether you're talking about it or reporting on it or not. You've seen a number of transitions in your career here in Washington. We've never seen a first day like that.
We really haven't. And Donald Trump said he would start with shock and awe, and sure enough he did. And it wasn't just the pomp and the circumstance. He got right down to it with all those executive orders that we watched him sign in the evening. There was a gigantic pile. Presidents often will do that. They'll do a number of symbolic gestures and moves on the first day in office. But Trump really made a meal out of it, and you saw that he was holding court with reporters as he was signing those walking in.
Was that a flashback for you?
A flashback? And it just really took us right back to where we have been, but also where we are going, Joe, because this is going to be the kind of free wheeling approach to governance that he will bring to office once again. And yet at the same time they are trying to run a tighter ship. As you noticed, they had someone standing next them explaining what the orders were. There was a structure to it that we didn't see when he took office back in twenty seventeen. So there are some of the similar characteristics of Trump that he'll never be able to shake. But then we're also seeing a few different moves from him in terms of being a little bit more orderly so that we know what's going to happen in packaging. Packaging, Yes, good way to here.
But boy, some old style showbiz for the now once again president. Remember the season finale on The Apprentice, when they did the live show, they rebuilt the whole boardroom on stage. That's kind of what it felt like last night in this rally at the Capitol. Once there, he sat down at a desk with a presidential seal to start signing eos yes.
And that again is part of his intent to really start out with a bang and to demonstrate that not only am I back, I am really in control and I am clearing out a lot of the things that I promised to change. He promised quick action on the border. He delivered that. Now implementation, of course, is another challenge, you know, but at least he has signed the paper and he is going to push his agencies to really try to make good. You know, when you think about immigration and force and it happens on the ground, far away from any signing ceremony here in Washington. It requires a lot of people. But he has set that emotion. And then he did some other things too.
TikTok.
He gave the company.
Last time we were here, we were talking, we were asking questions. No one knew what was going to happen. Good they go dark. Think of what's happened since then.
Well, although we still have a lot of questions on that show. Yeah, a one of them is was the order that he signed actually legal under the law, And we just had you mentioned a Bloomberg Technology. We just had Congressman Jake Oakincloss on our show who was questioning whether Trump's order was legal according to the statute that Trump's predecessor Joe Biden signed back in April of last year, and that requires the company to show progress toward a deal. This progress actually has to be verified and vetted by the administration and shared with members of Congress, and there actually has to be some paperwork to back it all up. And we've seen not only none of that, we've also seen both Wyte Dance and the Chinese government really resist any idea of selling TikTok Amazing.
It sounds like, to your point, we have a lot to learn there, but you can't envision a world in which it goes away. I'm guessing either with Donald Trump back in the White House.
It's it is hard to imagine. And I think right now the real question is what does Beijing. What do the government officials and leaders there have to say about the latest ideas coming through from Trump, including this idea of a possible joint venture between the involving the US government taking some sort of ownership stake. I imagine their heads may be exploding even on you know, at the very thought of that idea, and then the company, you know, this is a key part of its operations. They surely don't want to lose access to that customer base and to all that revenue setting aside, even the national security concerns that you know we've been hearing about for years here in Washington.
Well, this is your moment, Mike Shepherd, not only the TikTok story, but the titans of tech here in Washington, the true crossover here of technology policy and politics landing in your lap. The optics yesterday of these guys, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, the Elon Musk. Of course, they're standing right there with Donald Trump's future cabinet as if they were part of the cabinet. Elon Musk specifically, he's dancing around the stage literally yesterday. What does it mean for his business and for the others.
The stakes are enormous, and that is in part why you see the industry pivoting toward Trump in such a remarkable way. Let's turn the clock back four years. We were coming out of the January sixth attack on the US Capitol by Trump's supporters who were angered that, you know, and couldn't believe that he had lost the election to Joe Biden. That attack on the US Capitol prompted so many companies, but especially the tech industry, to really back away and turn away from Trump. And yet, you know, with the odds growing that he would return to power and return to off, we saw this pivot. It was happening slowly and then it gained some steam, and of course when he won the election, Mark Zuckerberg really made a very hard pivot, adding Dana White to the board of Meta, also pulling down some of the content moderation that they put into place after, you know, after January sixth. So all of these measures, everything that was old in a way is becoming new again. And the industry is really placing a lot of its chips on Trump.
That's for sure. Chips and Coins. Didn't even have time to ask you about trump Coin. We'll do that next time. Mike Shepard, thank you so much, Mike, loving you on Bloomberg Technology. Thank you as always for spending time with us here at the table on Balance of Power. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. I feel like Mark Zuckerberg's hair will be a proxy here of high text relationship with Trump. The longer it gets right, we know where. Wait till he gets the short hair back? What will they say? Douglas holt Zeken joined next on the fastest show in politics, Leadership heads to the White House Today from the Hill. It's next on Bloomberg.
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The new carpeting in place in the Oval Office. The old golden drapes will stay there. Those were Donald Trump's drapes. Joe Biden never changed them, so they stay. What else happened? They got Andrew Jackson back out there in a couple of other changes, the furniture. This is all part of the transition, of course. Winston Churchill's bust is back in the Oval Office. Be curious to see what it looks like when it's all done. Yeah, Producer James reminds the military flags also back in place lining the room. Joe Biden got rid of those. So imagine the setting today for John Thune and Mike Johnson walking into the Trump White House on the first full day. The strange thing is, we were supposed to have answers to these questions about sequencing, about one beautiful bill or not back at the Army Navy game. Remember they were going to do this over nachos. But we're still today asking the same questions we were following Donald Trump's visit to Capitol Hill. Nobody seems to exactly know quite the way this is going to work out, which makes it a lot more difficult for the people writing the bills. That's why this meeting is very important today. And we like to think by the way microphones the sticks, as they call on their setup in the driveway the White House, so we hear from those two leaders. Sticks would be the tripods. Wonder what Douglas Holtzecin is thinking about this, because we have huge questions about how we're going to fund the government past March, what we're going to do with the debt ceiling, and how this all comes together with some of the other policy changes that they want to put inside a reconciliation package. He is President of the American Action Forum, former director of the CBO. Oh, just wait until they start scoring this stuff. Douglas holtz Eken, Welcome back to Bloomberg. It's great to see you. What do you think they e merge with a plan today?
At least, I think that would be wise. I don't think that's been their track record. They've been unable to get on the same page for quite a time now. As you pointed out, it's going to have to come together quickly.
I mean, people forget that.
They don't just get to vote on the one big beautiful bill. They have to write budget resolutions in the House and Senate pass those that give them the authority to write the one big beautiful bill. Get one that can pass the House one vote margin, get one that can pass the Senate maybe a few more votes there, and then agree on it and get it to the president's test. That's a lot of work, and as you mentioned, there are some real speed bumps in between. There's funding the government, there's the debt limit. The Senate has to confirm these nominees. It's going to be very hard to hit the president's hundred daymark. I wanted to do this quickly there's no evidence that they've got a plan in place that will get it done that quickly.
Yeah, I forgot about the diet coke button, Douglas. That's back in the White House too. Can I get a diet coke button in here?
Is that?
I feel like we could do that at Bloomberg. So with all of that in mind, Mike Johnson says he wants to be voting by the end of February. That's not possible, is it.
Anything's possible, But I'm not optimistic about that timeline. I would be thrilled if they had a plan to govern, that they had a schedule for votes that everyone had agreed on House and Senate. I mean, that's what you really need to see. So far, we've heard, you know, the majority of leader in the sense saying I'd love to do two bills, the House saying we want one bill, the present saying I want one big, beautiful bill. But if two works, that's fine. So getting to a specific data which to vote, I think the first thing is to decide what are you going to vote on.
Let's do that.
So boy, it just sounds to me then like Donald try Up needs to tell him what to do. Is it a matter of giving direction here or is it up to the leaders to count the votes and tell him what's going on?
Big changes twenty seventeen tax bills, This effort require presidential leadership. There is no question that it's very helpful to members of the House and Senate if they can go back home to the town hall and say, look, the President asked me to do this. I don't love everything this bill. We improved on what he suggested. It's a step in the right direction, but the president has to get it down. We're going to get it done. You need that kind of air cover if you're going to make very tough votes in either chamber of Congress.
Right, Okay, I think the CBO needs some air cover, though, Douglas, Based on what I'm reading, there is a thought among the Republican conference that the CBO is not being straight up, that it's not by part is enough. The scoring is somehow wrong. Are we about to try to reinvent this whole system?
I hope not.
I genuinely would defend the cb track record. Are doing non partisan, you know, fact based scoring of the bills. Does that mean they're right all the time? No, of course not I got things wrong when I was director. Everyone makes mistakes. But the goal for the CBO, the most important thing that Congress can know is bill A versus bill b more or less in the way of deficits.
Get them ordered correctly. What's a bigger.
Initiative, what's a smaller initiative? Are you going to be right on the number ten years?
Now?
No way, that's a bar too high.
But let's get the bills ordered correctly, so they they're voting on the thing they.
Prefer to vote on.
Yeah, yeah, fascinating. You have to not only deal with the scoring of the CBO, you have to get through something called the parliamentarian here and there are a lot of questions Douglas about what gets through the bird bath as they call it. They're talking about putting a lot of policy into a reconciliation package that's designed for budgeting. How does that work?
So the authors of the seventy four Budget Act, which created this reconciliation process, and remember what reconciliation really does allow you to bypass the rules of the Senate. You can't fillibuster the bill. You have a finite amount of debate. You go and take a vote, simple majority and so they said, well, if we're going to bypass the rules of the Senate, we want to do it. We don't want to do it on everything under the sun. Let's do things that are purely budgetarian nature. So now it becomes the parliamentarian's job to decide for a provision is budgetarian nature or not. And if you go back to the build back Better effort under President Biden, the parliamentarian said that raising an enium wage was not budgetarian nature, and it went out. And so there are a whole bunch of them policyitarian nature. Well, there's border policy, there's energy policy. There are all sorts of things that you've heard they'd like to do. And the question is will the parliamentarian agree that those are budgetarian nature or are they primarily.
Other policy initiatives.
One of the most important things that happened was a week or so ago, quietly majority of Leader Thune said we will not fire the parliamentarian. And you have heard this chatter that was, oh okay, parlam says no, we'll just get another parliamentarian. And he said, no, we're not going to do that. And I thought that was an important line. He drew in the sand of the legislative process. They're going to have to adhere to the decisions this parliamentary makes.
It's a really important moment. The fact that John thud said it did that. And I'm glad you mentioned it, Doug, because in a couple of weeks it's going to matter a lot. I haven't mentioned Donald Trump's favorite ord in the dictionary, of course, that's tariffs, and boy, the argument over extending tax cuts somewhat hinges upon revenue from tariffs, and we're not clear exactly on where we're going. He wants to study most of them. Based on what we heard in the Oval Office, he's thinking about pretty significant tariffs against Canada and Mexico. Here's what Donald Trump said in the Oval Office last night.
We're thinking in terms of twenty five percent on Mexico and Canada because they're allowing vast numbers of people. Canada is very bad abuseral, so vast numbers of people to come in and fentonyl to come.
So we're thinking, Doug, are you starting to wonder if they ever happened? Is this just a bargaining chip?
So I think the most interesting thing we've seen thus far in the you know, the one day of the Trump administration. Is that the international front, the place where he has made the most waves on the campaign show and where they leaked immediate action.
As the way to go and sort of just shock and awe.
He then sends out of memother says, let's study these tariffs and decide.
If they're a good idea.
And we have seen nothing on deportations, nothing on the immigration front.
I mean, it's only day one full time.
In office, but there really was some real effort to sort of prepare people for the minute he's president.
This is going to happen.
It hasn't, and so I think that's interesting if you go back to seventeen. First he did big regulatory reform, control the growth of regulatory state. Then he did a big appropriation spill, funded the military in particular, did the tax bill. After that, he picked a trade fight with China and somewhat, are you really slowed the economy down?
That was my read at the time.
It looks like maybe they want to get the pro growth things in first and then maybe we'll worry about the problematic international provisions.
Just as you and I are speaking, headline crosses the terminal. This is from Donald Trump's borders are Tom Homan targeted raids are now happening throughout the US. We're going to see images next, you know, of workplace raids. Correct. What does it mean for the labor market and just the optics around this new administration.
Well, I have worried about this as an economic policy for a while. I mean, you've got the images of raids of workplaces. You know, what does that do for the employer employee relations, productivity in the workplace?
What does this do for hiring?
Do people think about changing jobs and the flexible US labor market that it could freeze up? This is all unknown territory, and you know, so we'll see how broad in scope these are.
We'll see who they're trying to target.
And you know, the first choice would of course be those with criminal records here illegally. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. We don't want illegal immigration, we want legal immigration. But the ramifications go well past the economics to the social fabric and we'll see how this plays out.
Well, that's for sure, it's happening as we speak now. With another headline, Democratic led states sue Trump over birthright citizenship order that of course, was another one of the eos the President brought forth in the Oval Office yesterday that Douglas Holt seeking there's an important meeting today and I know we can get distracted all day long here together. That Donald Trump's back in the White House. We were here to talk about a meeting with John Thune and Mike Johnson. It sounds to me like you're not expecting the earth to shake there and they're going to come out in the driveway, maybe not have that much different to say. Am I right?
I expect them to walk out and say we agreed to work on a plan to get this done, and they're going to have to if they do each an agreement, which wuld be very important, they're going to first going back and sell it to their members respectively before they announce the agreement, and so I wouldn't expect any when they walk out of the Oval Office.
Great to talk to you, as always, that Douglas whole second, of course, American Action Forum. He's been in Washington for a minute, so think about some of the things we just talked about, particularly what he mentioned about the parliamentary and it's going to be critically important as we watch all of this stuff move forward in the next couple of months. Reminding you that the government runs out of money in the middle of March, and we actually have a lot of work to do. It's the twenty first of January. Before you know it, we're in February. Confirmations are going to distract us a lot during that time, but there has to be some legislating, at least some crafting of bills to get the ball rolling here. So yes, we'll have more on this breaking story as a group of Democratic led states as well as cities launched first court fight against the new administration today to block the president's bid to end automatic citizenship for children born in the US his parents are in the country unlawfully or on non permanent visas. We're gonna assemble our panel next with a lot more. It's a brand new day in the Oval Office. New carpet, diet Coke button. They also swapped out the bust of Robert F. Kennedy. According to the Wall Street Journal, new silver eagle figures over the fireplace on the mantle. It's coming together as we speak, and we're going to hear from Donald Trump a little later today. We'll bring it to you live right here on Bloomberg.
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Before we get that massive infrastructure announcement as they're describing it at the White House, there's some meetings that need to take place at the White House first, specifically with Republican congressional leaderhip. First Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, and the Senate Majority Leader John Thune will meet with the President, and then wider Republican leadership. It's all about the legislative path forward and how exactly it is going to get done. Considering what Donald Trump himself described yesterday in his remarks at Emancipation Hall as an incredibly narrow majority in the House of Representatives.
Congratulate Mike Johnson for the job that he's doing. Stup, we gave him a majority of almost nothing. And then I said, to make it tougher on him, let me take two or three of the people, right, I said, he'll only have to suffer with that for about three months. How are they doing, by the way, are they Is that moving along?
So there you have it, saying the quiet part out loud.
Yeah, good luck with that.
Yeah.
Could be a majority of one if things go as plans.
Yeah.
So let's go to one member of that majority ing us live now from Capitol Hill here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. As Congressman Chuck Fleischman, Republican representing Tennessee's third district, Welcome back to balance of power, Congressman, as we await the readout, if you will, from the meeting the Speaker and John Thune will have with the President today. It's really going to be about the way in which a reconciliation package can move forward. We know the Speaker thinks it has to be one big bill. But are there right now two hundred and eighteen votes in the House for one big bill.
It's yet to be seen.
We've had very furtive meetings, probably about four or five meetings in the House Republican Caucus to discuss this one bill or two. The President wants one bill. I think the vast majority of members in the House will accede and agree to that as one bill.
But we're going to have to do account You're absolutely right.
We will have a one vote majority in the House provided everyone shows up on both sides until April, when the two Florida seats will be they'll be filled by Republicans. Ultimately we'll have about a four seat majority, but it's going to be difficult. It's a process. I applaud the President and the House and Senate leaders for discussing reconciliation. What will be in, what will be out, what we can do, and what we can't do. I'm an appropriator. We have appropriations to get done that cannot be done through reconciliation. So actually refining and defining the process is critically important and making sure that.
We meet and move forward.
So can we get it done?
Yes?
I applaud all of our leadership and President Trump for being very methodical in the way he's gone about this. We're laying everything out transparency for everybody in both parties and more importantly for the American people.
Well, that said a congressman, and it's good to have you back in Washington and with us here on Bloomberg. What does that mean when you look at the calendar, what's realistic Mike Johnson says he wants votes by the end of February, but you just invokes regular or if we're going to actually go through the real budgeting process and handle reconciliation separately, manage the debt ceiling, is that realistic?
Well, it's yet to be seen whether or not the debt ceiling will be part of reconciliation under the terms of reconciliation, If we do debt ceiling that way, we will be obligated by law to pick a specific number. Some members will have an aversion towards that. Some of our more conservative members might not want to put a number on that. I don't know where the President stands on that, but these are ongoing investigations.
Again, if it's.
One big bill, what will be in, what will be out. There'll be certain things that will be less palliative to some of the members that may not get in the big bill. So we're just going to have to wait and see what we can get the two eighteen with where the votes are. And the best part about it is we go through a very specific whipping process. By that, I mean every member will be asked where they're going to be on reconciliation and why and what their thoughts are. If they are in a no position, what can we do to get them to yes? What do they want in or out of the bill. So we do have time, it is shortened field, but we are being very careful and very thoughtful. Again, we've had three or four meetings already on this. All have been very furtive, all have been productive, and we're listening to our membership from top to bottom well.
And of course this is all what the executive branch and legislative branch will be working on together. But as Joe and I were describing, I'm sure you heard, Congressman Donald Trump has taken a lot of action already through the power of the executive including announcing what he calls a national energy emergency. Has outlined in his inaugural address yesterday.
Let's listen, the inflation crisis was caused by massive overspending and escalating energy prices. And that is why today I will also declare a national energy emergency.
We will drill baby.
Congressman, is drill baby, drill enough to get not just energy prices, but prices across the board down? And what role do other forms of energy like wind, for example, which the President also issued orders pulling back on yesterday. Play in this.
I'm glad you asked me this question because this is my wheelhouse. I chair the Energy and Water Subcommittee of Appropriations, so I fund the Department of Energy all of the energy initiatives. I share eight congressional caucuses dealing with energy. I just launched the American Dominance in Energy Caucus with Democrats and Republicans to answer this question. Drill belluyby drill is a great start. We need to utilize our oil, our gas, our abundant fossil fuels. I am a champion of nuclear. I'm the nuclear congressperson in either House. I work with people across the aisle. We need new nuclear, we need geothermal. We need abundant.
Energy in America.
If we do not act, and I applaud President Trump for being so aggressive on energy, and there is an energy emergency because we're going to need energy to propel AI. We're gonna need energy to propel our great manufacturing boom in this country. We want to make absolutely certain that we have abundant energy. It will be oil, it will be gas, it will be nuclear, geothermal, solar will have a place. So we want to make sure we have abundant energy, but it's got to be common sense abundant energy.
Well, we've established the need, Congressman, and we've talked about this with you more than once here on Bloomberg TV and radio. You look at stocks like Constellation taking off here, we know the demand is there. We also know that the red tape is there. What did Donald Trump do in those executive orders yesterday that will actually lead to a new nuclear power plant this country?
Well, actually, fortunately, if you look at the fiscal twenty twenty five budget, which I wrote for the Energy and Water Bill in the House, it proposes close to nine billion dollars in new.
Funding for new nuclear.
In terms of executive orders, he's going to make it easier for all energy companies to do business. But as we focus somewhat in a parochial sense on nuclear, we've got to be wise about it. There's a lot of designs out there, there's a lot of different fuel systems, Generation three, generation four, We've got to choose wisely. I've already spoken with Secretary right incoming Secretary Right he has yet to be confirmed. He and I have spoken Secretary Bergham and I have spoken, we are going to work together to make sure that it's economically feasible.
But the key is going to be yesterday.
I believe President Trump named the Nuclear Regulatory Commission chair.
That is going to be very important.
Why clear regulatory Commission is important for safe nuclear? Nuclear is safe. But they need to move in a more swift fashion. They're too slow, they're too lethargic. We have got to get going. Why Russia, China, even our friends the Frends in the South Koreans and the Canadians are moving ahead of us. If we focus, and I know one thing about President Trump, he will focus.
On getting it done right.
New nuclear will boom in America.
Congressman, just quickly before we let you go. We only have about forty five seconds here. But on January sixth, twenty twenty one, you called it a sad day and condemned the actions that took place. Do you have a reaction, sir, to the pardon of the more than fifteen hundred people who were convicted of crimes on that day?
Well? As a member of the legislative branch, I had been on the House floor that day, was subject to a bomb threat in my office where my whole staff had to leave. That does not get talked about a lot, But the reality is I'm going to defer to President Trump on the pardons. That is something of the executive branch. I'm in the legislative branch as a constitutionalist. I will defer to President Trump and his judgment. All Right, we had a great first day. I hope he has a great four years and I'm here to help him.
Congress and we appreciate you coming back. This Chuck Fleischman, Republican from Tennessee's third District. We're gonna have a lot more on those January sixth pardons coming up. Our signature panels on the way. Next, this is Bloomberg.
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I'm Kaylee Lines alongside Joe Matthew here in Washington, where, of course it's the first full day of the second Trump administration. The President began his day today with, as his tradition, prayer service at the National Cathedral. He's now back at the White House, where just about thirty minutes from now he's scheduled to meet with Republican congressional leadership. Both the House Speaker Mike Johnson and some Majority leader John Thune will be arriving to discuss the legislative agenda. And while Joe, we often frame this as just the path forward on budget reconciliation, we do have to keep in mind there's a government that needs to be funded beyond the deadline of March fourteenth, the debt ceiling that is going to need to be raised at some point, and a very tight majority in the House you're working with to get it all done.
That's true. With a live view of the West Wing, the entrance that will at some point carry the congressional leadership toward the Oval office, they'll likely emerge. Microphones and cameras are set up with the driveway to maybe get a sense of what it was like in the room. Because you're right, Kelly, we don't have a way forward on any of these items, despite the fact they've been talking about it for weeks. Still don't know if it's one big beautiful bill. Go back to the Army Navy game. It was supposed to be hashed out weeks and weeks ago, and we're still not there yet.
And I'm just going to add something else to this list. You still have to get the rest of Trump's cabinet confirmed at some point two in a second. Times can be arduous in its processes to get everything done. Marca Rubio the first to be sworn in today.
Yeah, that's right, Scott Bessett. By the way, cleared committee, we should let our audience know the incoming likely incoming Treasury secretary now goes to the floor where he also is expected to be confirmed. But yes, Marco Rubio becomes the first. We'll have a lot more coming up with our signature panel here. You want to bring in Rick and Jeanie Sure Bloomber Politics contributors, of course, they were with us on innauguration Day, Democratic analyst Jenie Shanzano, of course, and Republican strategist Rick Davis, partner at Stone Court Capital. A lot more to talk about here as we get ready for this meeting. Genie, what's going to happen inside the Oval today? Will they craft a plan.
I don't know if they're craft a plan, but they certainly have a lot to talk about.
You know.
I think one of the things we forget is that Donald Trump's first term he did not have an enormous number of legislative victories. You know, certainly the twenty seventeen tax bill was a big one for him, but beyond that, legislative victories were few and far between. I mean, I think we all remember there was a running joke during his term and terms before his that every week was infrastructure Week, but nobody could pass the bill. And so what he set out for himself in terms of the legislation he wants to get passed in Congress, it is a huge, big, looming setup. Priorities he had and that you know, you just went through some of them, and that's what they're going to be discussing. And it's not just on reconciliation one or two bills, it's what the heck is that bill going to have in it? What are his must haves? For instance? And I think the debt ceiling is going to be the thing that frustrates him the most. And of course you've got a narrow majority in the House, So there's a lot for them to discuss in there today, and it's stuff that Donald Trump probably doesn't love about his job, which is the nitty gritty of legislation, and.
Yet it's the job that he has as of twenty five hours or so ago. Rick, He's going to have to work with Congress on this stuff, obviously, and Congress is going to have to figure out how to work together. How much of this meeting do you expect could actually be Trump and Johnson, who seemed to be on the same page with reconciliation, trying to convince thoone to get vocally on board.
Yeah.
Look, I mean, this isn't the first meeting they've had, and I think they've sort of found each other's priorities.
A lot of it's going to be now really up to Donald Trump.
I mean, you know, we know Thune is pushing a two bill reconciliation package, one in the spring, one in the winter or fall of next year, round the end of the fiscal year at the end of September, and so, and we know that Johnson's going to do whatever Donald Trump wants to do, right, I mean, I think it's unfair to actually say that Johnson has a point of view. Johnson echoes the point of view of the president, and so this is totally up to Donald Trump. He's going to make the call, and I think he's going to make it today. I don't think they want to delay action. I mean, you know, getting something done by March fifteenth is not going to be easy. And they they're running up against all these deadlines, like the continuing Resolution. I mean, the deadlimit deadline has passed tomorrow. It's you know, or passed on the second in January. So we're only we're working off of extraordinary measures now that'll maybe get us into the spring summer. So like, these are things piling up, and his Congressman Fleischmann said, they've got all this other stuff, these confirmations to do regular order around appropriations and authorizations. It's it's going to be a capacity problem if they think they can do it all in one bill.
So I think Fune will come out with a victory.
But I think there's going to be some definition to it today because after the Thune Johnson meeting, they bring in the leadership of both the House and the Senate, and I assume that's to get the marching orders.
Well, it would help to get some directions today and we'll keep tabs on what we hear. That meeting is set to begin over a half hour from now at the White House. We have the matter of January six pardons to discuss. Donald Trump danced around this throughout the day yesterday. He talked about the fact that pardons were coming. We didn't know until late yesterday inside the Oval Office what we would get. Here's Donald Trump from earlier in the day.
Tonight, I'm going to be signing on the Jay six hostages pardons to get them out. And as soon as I leave, I'm going to the Oval Office and we'll be signing pardons for a lot of people, a lot of people.
And it was a lot of people, about fifteen hundred, including violent offenders who attacked the capital and attacked police officers on January sixth, Full complete and unconditional pardons, including the likes of Enrique Tario, the former national leader of the Proud Boys walking free today. His mother was tweeting about it last night. Now, Genie, if you look at the video that we just showed, Donald Trump was standing in front of family members of hostages who were taken in Gaza, including an actual freed hostage who was there on the stage last night. They were presumably brought up on the stage to show respect and tribute to their family members. There they are again with the yellow scarves on, and Donald Trump turned to the podium and started talking about January sixth offenders as hostages received quite a bit of applause. Was that the proper way to roll this out? Jeanie Chanzeno, I.
Don't think there is a proper way to roll this out. I think we have a president now who fulfilled his promise of pardoning these folks. But he did this on the heels of an inauguration where he promised to restore law and order. And what did he do hours later, after being after being kept safe all day and for the campaign trail by security, he went in and pardoned people who are convicted of the most violent crimes against police officers in our country. And I don't know how you swear that it's an attempt to whitewash history and what it has left in people's minds, and your point about the hostages is absolutely important. It has left the idea that he's wanting to support police officers and ensure that anybody who commits violence against them is held responsible unless the police officers are doing something that he doesn't like, and that is a problem. So I don't know if there's a good way to do this. And let's not forget that QAnon Shaman who was released as well, or at his sentence ut of jail. He went on social media last night and applauded the fact that he's been pardoned and he can go out and buy some guns now. So that's what the president does, which which is why this was there's no right way to do this, and he chose the wrong way in pardoning all of these people in a blanket pardon, regardless of their crimes or their charges.
But Rick, on the other hand, isn't this exactly what he has long said he would do. Should anyone be surprised by him actually taking this action?
Well, this is actually one where you know, it's a classic example of almost reverse right where you say, don't listen to what he says, see what he does, and usually what he does is less impactful than what he says. In this case. Throughout the campaign, he kept it kind of general as to whether he would pardon the violent offenders. Three hundred and seventy nine of the fifteen hundred that he pardoned had attacked police and caused damage to the Capitol, and that wasn't a very politically favorable thing to do, so he kind of left it open, and even as Vice President went out as early as just a few weeks ago did an interview saying, you know, like, no, we wouldn't we wouldn't give those guys a break there. Anybody who attacks a cop should serve time. And so it's pretty clear that what his intention was was much worse than what he was willing to say. This was one where even members of Congress were caught by surprise thinking, well, wait a minute, I thought he was saying that he was only going to do the non violent misdemeanors and people like that. So I got to tell you, I think this was a inside job. Those folks around Donald Trump, you know, who had relationships with the Proud Boys and the folks who did the organize the attack, obviously weighed in on his interests, and I'm not sure it was even widely vetted within the staff who were in the process of preparing all these documents. Because this was one where what he did was different than what he said.
Well, yeah, interesting. The group Protect Democracy put a list together of lawmakers comments JD. Vance as well to your point, Rick, who said, if you committed violence on that day, obviously you should not be pardoned. Senator Katie Britt said, I agree with JD. Senator Josh Holly, Republican. Of course I'm against it for people who assaulted cops, through stuff at cops, broke down doors, broke windows, Genie, there's an equivalency thing here going on too. Of course, Joe Biden was roundly criticized, I think by including you as well, for pardoning members of his family on his way out the door yesterday. In our remaining moment, why do you not see those in the same.
Way pardning members are your family. As you mentioned, I am not a fan of that, nor am I a fan of preemptive pardons, but that is highly different than pardoning people who attacked violently police officers in our nation's capital. And Senator Tom Tillis, a Republican, was right when he said it makes the capital less safe, and you can't have it both ways. We all have to condemn violence where ever we find it. Donald Trump is now saying some violence is forgivable and okay when it's in my interest, and other violence I'm not accepting, and that is a problem for all of us and it should be condemned, all right.
Jeanie Schanzeno and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors, our signature political panel, thank you for joining us, and of course we're going to have more on pardon still ahead with Kim Whaley. She's professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and an expert on pardons. That's still ahead here on Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and radio.
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You wonder who will do the first in rikue Taria interview, who will do the Stuart Rhodes sit down? Will there be soft seeding they've been pardoned by Donald Trump, of course. Among the most violent January sixth offenders, Enrique Tarrio, the former leader of the Crown Boys, Stuart Rhodes, the Oathkeepers, Ryan Samsel, the first rioter to breach police lines. Guy Refitt, who carried a firearm during a standoff with police to help the lead the way to the Capitol pardoned among fifteen hundred pardoned by Donald Trump and a series of pardons and commutations. It's pardon fever in Washington. You heard about Joe Biden naming family members on the way out the door. Here's Donald Trump on the way in.
First, we have a list of pardons and commutations relating to events that occurred on January sixth, twenty twenty one.
Okay, and how many people is this?
I think this order will apply to approximately fifteen hundred people, sir.
So this is January sixth. These are the hostages, approximately fifteen hundred for a pardon, yes, full pardon.
Of course, what he's referring to as hostages, in most instances were people who had been convicted of crimes committed on that day, many of whom pleaded guilty to those crimes. So for more on this, now we want to turn to a pardon expert. Kim Waaley is with us. She's professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law. She's also author of the book Pardon Power, How the Pardon System Works and Why Kim Thanks for coming back to balance of power. Would you describe this mass pardon of nearly fifteen hundred offenders from January sixth, twenty twenty one is the parton system working?
No, I would not even us the Department guidelines, which are not binding on presidents. One of the criteria is whether the person seeking a pardon could be violent, and so it's antithetical to the idea behind a pardon and amnesty pardons in particular, they go all the way back to George Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion, through the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson pardoned Confederate soldiers, and then Jimmy Carter pardoned draft dodgers after the Vietnam War. Mass pardons traditionally are about healing the country, moving the country forward after a tragedy under some blanket notion of Americans. And here this is undermining the legitimacy of the rule of law. And of course Donald Trump himself was both impeached and indicted for his role in January sixth, so he's really standing in solidarity with people who tried to overthrow the peaceful transfer of power and our constitutional structure itself.
Well, so then what happens if some of these individuals, let's say in Ray kue Tario goes on to him he's convicted of seditious conspiracy, Right, I'm trying to get a sense of the precedent here. What happens if they get in trouble again? Would there be a record to look back on?
So a pardon does not actually wipe out your entire criminal record. That requires an exoneration by a judge. But it does more than a commutation. A commutation just changes your sentence. If you're in prison, you get released. If you're in death row, you might get life in prison, for example. But a pardon does lift some of the strictures on a felony conviction. So you might have broader access to guns, you might be able to travel to parts of the world that without a pardon that would be restricted. You would have access to different kinds of government benefits, etc. So it does give back some privileges voting rights in certain states that a peer basic commutation would not do.
Well.
And it wasn't just about pardons. And commutations. Yesterday, Kim Trump also, through this action, ordered the Attorney General to seek the dismissal of the roughly four hundred and fifty cases that are pending before for judges people who have been charged but not yet convicted or acquitted. Is there any guarantee that the dismissal for all of those cases happens? Is that up to the DOJ or up to the judges who have those cases before them.
Well, judges actually do have some discretion to decline to have a case dismissed under the federal rules of criminal procedure. But I can't imagine any judges would push back on that because there wouldn't be anyone to actually move forward and prosecute those cases. Definitely, Pambondi made clear during her confirmation hearings that she's in lockstep with this president, which of course is a different precedent than we've seen since Watergate, where the Justice Department has been very careful to be independent of the president so that there aren't conflicts of interest. Donald Trump ran on using the Justice Department as an arm of his own retribution, So we're in a different world right now. I think the judges are going to be thoughtful about that and seeing new prosecutions and be mindful of vindicti prosecutions. But there really isn't a lot judges can do if the DJ wants to go forward on certain things.
We're hearing from some of our viewers and listeners here throughout the day about the equivalency argument and how one can criticize Donald Trump for what he did after Joe Biden pardoned Hunter Biden then yesterday other members of his family issued preemptive pardons for members of the January sixth Committee and others. How would you answer them.
There's a lot of confusion around pardons, you know, the Donald Trump pardons again green lighting political violence. There was a survey done over the summer bipartisan support Republicans Democrats did not want to see this because it basically creates a street army that thinks they're above the law. If you want a peacefully protest in Washington, the people are going to now feel emboldened so long as it's in the name of Donald Trump to come out violently. That's not I think how we want our children to be walking around the streets of America. I was not critical of the Hunter Biden pardon. In part, that's different because than the family pardons this week, because he went through years of criminal investigation, both under Trump and under Biden, and they came up with some pretty low level charges. And I think his dad was worried about real retribution given that they've raked him over the coals with that fact pattern already, these family pardons that are really nebulous. You know, James Biden did have some issues with his congressional testimony and a referral to doj for alleged perjury, but you know, the wives, the other siblings, This really seems like nepotism taking care of his own and it does set a bad precedent. And I'll tell you what the precedent is. It is Listen. Now, with the community ruling, Donald Trump and future presidents will have, knowing they can commit crimes all they want, they're going to need to get people to go along with that to execute those criminal orders. I think that Joe Biden pardons of his family sort of sets a precedent for just open pardons. Open season on pardons really vague to immunize deputy co conspirators. So you take immunity, you add the pardon. We have a you know, a crime gang in the White House, and the Supreme Court basically amended the Constitution to say, there's not much that we can do about it unless we the people get together and actually amend the Constitution, which is not an easy task.
It certainly is not so when we consider, and you were speaking to this earlier, what comes with a pardon where the members of the Biden family who have been kind of blanket pardoned by him now basically be untouchable if they were called to testify before Congress, for example, which there have been some signal of Republican lawmakers. Still do you intend to do? Is there any way to still get at them despite the action the President took yesterday.
Yeah, So the pardon started in twenty fourteen to current time period, So in theory, any activity prior to twenty fourteen would not be covered. But you know, the Constitution says it applies to federal offenses. It's been traditionally perceived to be criminal offenses. It hasn't technically been extended to civil I don't think there's anything standing in the way of arguing that a pardon would somehow give some immunity to Congress, but there's congressional to testimony, but there's no legal authority for that. It wouldn't protect from an IRS investigation. I think there would be litigation around refusing to testify. Of course, a pardon, if accepted, basically means you cannot invoke the right to against self incrimination under the Fifth Amendment. So I think they could probably object to certain questions depending on what the context was, but if they fall within the pardon, there'd be an argument they would have to answer them or be held in contempt of Congress, which we saw when Donald Trump's witnesses refused to testify before the January sixth Committee. That's also very hard to enforce.
Kim, you've been great on this. We learn a lot from Kim Whaley, who truly wrote the book on pardons, it's called Pardon Power, how the partons system works, and why she's a professor at University at Baltimore School of Law. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.
