Why from our nations this budget thing is going to do nothing Space Force. I still think it's interesting President Trump not playing his cards yet. Headlines policy and politics colliding to Bloomberg Sound On, the Insiders, the influencers, the insides. I would rather see a congressional solution. It's part of my DNA. The Senate map in looks a lot different than it looked in. You really have a divide within Team Trump. The president has to do exactly what people sent him here to do, which is to get it done. This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin Shirley on Bloomberg nine one and five points D two. I'm Kevin Sirelli, Chief Washington correspondent from Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm still in the Motor City, just outside of Detroit, Michigan, at Bloomberg's Detroit Bureau. It's ground zero for President Trump's trade policies and President Trump just within the last hour talking tough against China. We will break down the trade stance of President Trump every which way. Meanwhile, news on the debt ceiling advancing out of the Senate and now it appears well we've avoided another political hijinks for at least two years. What does that mean? Will dive into the specifics of that as well. And let's not forget fall out. Fall out, Complete political analysis and reporting from the second Democratic presidential Debate, which has brought me, of course here to Detroit, Michigan. Who had a breakout night, who needs to keep moving forward in order to qualify for the September debates, And what all mean for the front runner, Former Vice President Joe Biden? Can he hang on? Will dive into that with an all star panel. Brendan Buck is back. Brendan is a Republican strategist, and we also have a host of other folks. Uh to get to Mark Post. He is a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at Rock Solutions. He's the former national Press Secretary of the d n C during the president fidential campaign. But before we get into all of this, it is a beautiful day here just outside of Detroit, Michigan, where, of course the conclusion the conclusion of the second Democratic presidental debate wrapped up late last evening. We were in the spin room till midnight, and the talk of all of it is just whether or not former Vice President Joe Biden can hang on to his front runner status, or whether or not any of these mid tier candidates will break out and be able to fundraise off of some of the key moments of the past hours. You know, I was struck by a couple of things. We're gonna get into all of the policy ramifications, but when you take a step back, it really appears that this is a fight for the soul and the ideology of the Democratic platform on issues pertaining to the economy. And when Senator Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are espousing medicare for all talking about trade policies, there could not be any more of a clear to by. They didn't have to be on the stage last night against Biden in order, uh for this contrast to be made. We're gonna get to that with our all stars who are holding down the fort for me. Back in Washington, D C. Brendan buck is back. He's the former spokesman and adviser to HOW Speaker Paul Ryan and a partner now at Seven Letter. Mark poston Bach is a Democratic strategist. He is also a senior vice president at Rock Solutions, as well as the former National Press Secretary to the d n C during the presidential campaign. And I want to start with you. Your former boss, Paul Ryan knows a thing or two about the Midwest, obviously being from wid Hanson. And so last night at on the on the presidential debate stage, did Biden do what he needed to do to make that pitch to Midwest voters? Yeah, I mean, I think Biden really bought himself another six weeks as the front runner, because you know, it's not so much what he did, it's what nobody it's what nobody else on the stage was able to do. And that's really lay a glove on him. You know. Uh, Kamala Harris, who took him on quite memorably the first debate, found herself largely on defense, which is what happens when you sort of rise up to the top tier. Um. Corey Booker was I think probably the strongest contrast yesterday. Um, but even he you know, he had a few good lines and it seemed like he was going to get Biden on the ropes there and and and and throw the knockout punch, but he kind of held back a little bit. And you kind of get the sense that Corey Booker is not really comfortable in that attack dog role um and so basically we come out of here, I think it with a pretty much a status quo. And given that we're going into the you know, the summer August recess, people on vacation, people worrying about sending their kids back to school, we don't really have much in the way of political event until the next debate other than the Iowa State Fair. I imagine we're going to be sort of stuck where we were, which is with Biden the healthy lead in him really the only one in that moderate, if you will, lane among the top tier candidates. It was interesting just to see the pressure that comes on these lower tier tier candidates in the next forty eight to seven towers. They're gonna have to see how their poll numbers fair and see whether or not they can boost some of their credentials in order to qualify for the third Democratic presidential debate September twelve in Houston. Mark Postenbach, he has a Democratic strategist. Do any candidates drop out, and if so, when you know, I really think that you know whether or not they qualify for this next debate. It's going to be particularly important if you are running a race, UM, where you don't have a ton of money, UM, where you're able to or excuse me, unable to sort of get attention on TV. Um, we're unable to get traction where you're able to raise money. UM. I don't see anyone right now. I think it's really really early. I don't see anybody dropping out, UM until they don't make the next presidential debate debate. So UM again, right now, they're looking to get attention as much as possible. UM. Mr Yang last night was on CNN making a lot of interesting points, getting people's attention. UM. But at the end of the day, I still think it's going to be particularly early. It's gonna go up and down over the next couple of months. I mean, Elizabeth Warren UH seemed to do particularly well um the first night of the debates, but the reality is people thought she was done only a couple of months ago. They thought her rollout was botched, and so I think that really speaks to the fact that, UM, it's gonna be up and down. But as Brendan said at the end of this, I don't think either of these nights debates UH continuing thing. You know, it's it's interesting. Right. So there's the politics of this and and the policy, of course is set to be contrasted not just between Senator Elizabeth Warren and former Vice President Joe Biden, but also amongst Republicans. You know, President Trump as we speak route to Cincinnati, Ohio, he's hosting a fundraiser there and he will have a rally. I think he has a lot to talk about. And just before taking off leave in the White House for Cincinnati, he talked about trade policy. And we all know Michigan is a state that he carried. It's also a state I think people forget this that center. Excuse me that Senator Bernie Standers beat Hillary Clinton in during the Democratic presidential primary here in Michigan. This is where General Motors is headquartered. Uh, this is auto country, and this is virtually ground zero for U S. M c a for U S. China trade talks, and China. China was on President Trump's mind before he left to depart for Cincinnati from the White House. Take a listen to what presidents has to say about China eating it here he is we've taxed China on three billion dollars worth of goods and products being sold into our country, and China eats it because they have to pay it, because what they do is they devalue their currency and they push money out. But our tariffs precisely going to be part of the new republic looking ideology, the new democratic ideology. That's what we're gonna get into coming up next. You can download the sound on the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on applei to at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find me on I Heart Radio, Spotify, and Radio dot com. Panel stays and I'm Kevin Cirelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio, broadcasting live from the Detroit out technically right outside of Detroit, Michigan Bureau from Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven of m h D two Baltimore. We're now take it in tariffs on ten percent on over three hundred billion on two hundred and fifty billion, and it's been proven that our people are not paying for the terror. That was President Trump speaking earlier today depart during the White House en route to Cincinnati, Ohio, where the President is hosting a campaign re election rally as well as a fundraiser. It is the first rally that he has following the conclusion of the second Democratic presidential debate. I'm Kevin Cirelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm broadcasting from our Bloomberg Detroit bureau, where I've been camped not camped out, but I've been hanging out following the conclusion of the second Democratic presidential Debate. I'm joined back in Washington, d C. By Brendan buck. He is a former spokesman and adviser to House Speaker Paul Ryan. He's a Republican and now a partner at Seven Letters Communications. Mark poston Bach is also in Washington, d C. A Democratic strategist, senior vice president at Rock Solutions, and as well as the former National Press Secretary to the d n C during the During so Mark, in terms of tariffs, I mean you hear the President saying that he is going to be negotiator in chief. You know I'm here in Detroit. General Motors is headquartered here. Uh, this is really ground zero for the trade debate. How will the Democrats look to contrast themselves when making the pitch that they will be better at negotiating trade deals with China as well as with Europe and of course let's not forget about Mexico and Canada. Well, if there's one thing, UM and obviously being a business network, the most important thing for businesses is to have UM some sense of stability to understand what policies are coming out of the White House. Unfortunately, with President Trump, you have things that are like tweets. You're not seeing any particular announcements that's sort that are well thought out UM where he's consulting the business community, and that does having a real impact on UM businesses everywhere. You know, the most important UM reason why there's not much business investment despite the tax cuts, UM, despite President Trump's best efforts UM with respect the tariffs, is because of the uncertain t UM that these businesses are facing. And you know, when it comes to rural America and farms, despite the President's UM best efforts on making sure that UM that these folks are being taken care of, we're spending you know, more money than we're collecting and revenue on these tariffs. So I think Democrats, I think can lay claim to a pretty strong argument on that. You don't, Brendan Buck, I mean you know this. I mean just so being over the past couple of years on trade policy as it's made of a through the House of Representatives, from your time working with former Speaker Paul Ryan, I mean I was kind of reading between the lines and and and trying to trying to parse words the past two nights of the of the debate because I didn't hear I mean, you hear former Congress and Better Overwork say that tariffs or taxes. You hear some of the candidates say that tariffs are bad. But then when when I was listening to Senator Elizabeth Warren, she didn't say that. She actually criticized u s m C A which is likely going to get a vote in the fall. She criticized USMC because she says it's gonna help big pharma. But there's similarities, are there not? Between the way that President Trump negotiates on trade and the way that progressives like Senator Sanders and Senator Warren would negotiate it on trade? Right, I find very little to be happy about with the President's approach on trade. I had hoped that there would be a silver lining of some sort where Democrats would sort of reject what he's doing just because it's him and embrace a little more free trade. That's not happening. I mean, the reality is that he's acting like a Democrat, a sort of crazy Democrat, even when it comes to implementing tariffs. And it is perhaps the most self destructive thing that he does. I mean, he does a lot of self destructive things, obviously, But you know, the primary argument he's going to try to make for reelection is the economy. Um, and you know you've hit on it. It's not just the national economy. It's that region where you're sitting right now. The President won Michigan, but he wanted by like ten thousand votes. That's nothing. And yeah, there's the automotive is and the manufacturing in that region that are getting hit by this. But you know, there's also a lot of agricultural products that come out of that area. And if you look at a state like Wisconsin, where my boss is from, the uh, dairy farmers in Wisconsin are getting crushed right now now there's a number of reasons for it, but the trade war is part of it, and you know, I I imagine sort of the rhetoric plays well in that part of the country about you know, taking on China and fighting and doing that kind of thing. But at some point, you know, we're years into this now, the policy outcomes are not terribly good, and people are hurting, and again, all it does is undermine his central argument for reelection is that I've got a great economy going. And you know, I don't know who thought that this was, you know, a good idea of the latest action today. I imagine nobody did. I imagine this was another one of his just shoot from the hip, gut instinct. I'm gonna drop another ten percent tariff on China and and you know, that's gonna get me somewhere. And it would be one thing if he had been pushing these threats for for a while and and it yielded some type of results. But at this point it's pretty clear that China is not just gonna, you know, fold because of this, and hopefully we can learn a lesson soon and stop this nonsense. You know, we talk a lot about the uncertainty for the short term. But I mean, looking at that debate stage last night, the Democrats are are there are candidates that are are espousing very different trade policies and and the contrast between them and whether or not they believe tariffs are good or bad. There's a diversity of ideology that exists on the left regarding tariffs in particular, that also exists on the right. I mean, Brendan, I mean to hear you criticize the president's use of terrorists. I mean, as you know, there are staunch supporters of President Trump and this for example, who are also increasingly very critical and even introduced legislation to get him to reign in the use of tariffs. I want to play for you just one final bite about what President Trump, and he's trying to say that tariffs are actually costing not the U. S. Worker or or businesses, but that they're costing China. Take a listen to the President Trump before he left. First, since Nattie, we're taking in many billions of dollars. There's been absolutely no inflation, and frankly, it hasn't coast our consumer or anything could coast China. Mark Poston about Democratic strategists senior vice president at Rock Solutions. I mean, I you know, I want to I want to not conflate stories, but I think we also have to look to see the forest from the trees, and we have to think big picture, and we gotta keep it simple. And when you look at how the President is saying, like he did the other week, that there might not be a trade deal with China until after the election, he's setting expectations. And I think when you look at what could happen in the fall, he's banking, banking that U S m c A gets ratified. And I think you could even I mean you hear the news of today where he's you know, the tariffs on with China. I think you couldn't see a situation where he plucks on additional tariffs on Mexico in order to try to four the hand of Speaker Pelosi to get a vote, or even in another situation he could pull out of NAFTA altogether to try to force to get a vote. But in the short term, a lot more uncertain days ahead, are there not? Mark, Yeah, I do think there's uncertain the president. Part of it is that, as Brendan said, the president wakes up one day and makes a decision and that's it, and it's over a tweet. Um. I also think in many ways that a lot of his policies are to try and cover up for things that didn't work. Right. So the tax cuts, for example, we're supposed to um spur you know, business investment, and instead they did. I mean if you consider that, you know, you know, stock buybacks perhaps, but I mean, like the reality is that his tax cuts um didn't work. Most Americans aren't feeling um any better after the tax cuts, and so he's you know, sort of I'm not even there, and I can just see Brendan Buck like ready to literally like I don't even know, just like grab, I'm gonna I'm gonna get Martin the floor. But you know, go ahead, mark Um. You know, I think you know, he's constantly trying to find ways to sort of move the ball forward. I mean, if you look at something like healthcare for example, that you know, the GOP does not have a healthcare proposal, um if the A c A goes down, so what is the president trying to do? He's trying to come up with short term ideas and plans on things like prescription drugs or surprise billing. Um. And that's because he doesn't have anything to fall back on, and he refuses to sort of stop and and reevaluate where he is. He's just keep moving forward. So that's where we're going to see some of these policies that that aren't going to work over the course of all Right, Brandon respond, go ahead. Just this morning, the Wall Street Journal reported at the sort of wave of inversions that companies have been moving overseas has reversed as a result of the tax reform law that we passed. And I don't think anybody can argue that people aren't doing better than they were years before. In fact, the second quarter business investment was not super strong, but because for the preceding six quarters or so, it was quite strong. Um. You know, there's a lot of things you can criticize what the president has done. I don't think that you can suggest that tax reforms has not helped people feel better. Uh, it has not helped. It's hard to argue that it has not helped the business community, small small businesses. UM, and frankly just made people feel a little better about their lives, that they can get ahead a little more. All right, We're gonna keep this conversation going, coming up set ceiling time. Do you believe this President Trump got a deal with Speaker Pelosi. You can download Down on podcast by uh download on Apple it tunes, at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find us on Radio dot Com, I Heart Radio, and Spotify Panel Stay Stays, Brendan buck Mark Poston Back and I'm Kevin CURRELLI Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven f m h D two Baltimore. That is such a great song. YouTube's beautiful day. And I'm Kevin Sirelli, chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm I've stuck around Detroit and it is a beautiful day here in Detroit. It's been a beautiful past couple of days. I've been here on assignment covering the second Democratic presidential debate. But there's policy news that happened in the Upper Chamber back in Washington, d C. Brendan Buck is a former UH Press secretary to House Speaker Paul run Uh. He is also now at Seven Letters Communications. Mark poston Bach is a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at Rock Solutions and former National Press Secretary of the d n C. During the presidential campaign, Brendan, did you see this? Did you see this? What the Senate did today? They actually did something a sixties seven to eight vote. They passed a massive budget deal. This a according to CNN, that would stave off the looming threat of a potential default on US debt and prevent automatic spending cuts to domestic and military funding. They raised the death sailing. I mean, this is this is for two years, two years. I mean, Brendon, I feel like you're like, I couldn't we have gotten that back when I was in the in the House. No, I mean we actually didn't have too much Trump It's the the ironic ironic things. We didn't have too much trouble raising the debt limit with this president. I just don't think he cared too much about it. Now I am getting having a little fun with everybody is celebrating that the debt limit has been increased for two years. And you know, everybody thinks the drama is over. Um, hold up, we still have to fund the government. Um. And I think that we have quite the battle in store still ahead. Um. As you know, government funding will run out this fall. Uh. And the last time we went through this exercise, we had the longest government shutdown in history. I don't know that the dynamics have changed a lot, other than maybe the President realizing that that didn't work out too well for him. But we still have a lot of drama ahead of us. And UM. While it's certainly a good thing that we don't have to deal with the debt limit for another couple of years, I don't think the fund is quite over you. I mean, I'm an optimist, but a little drama for from a journalist perspective, markets drama. Drama can be a good thing. But there's no drama over the falling on the US debt. Right. You would say this is a win for them. I'm not trying to this is a win for Speaker Pelosi and President Trump. No. Uh, yeah, I believe so. I think again, to to Brendan's point here, we did strike a deal, but at the end of the day. Um, this is not something to be trifled with. I think that, um, if we were to sort of end this um as a as sort of a constant issue over time, I think the economy would be in a in a much better place. It just seems, um a little absurd that we have to go through this um every couple of years. So yeah, I think that this is a positive step, but I'm still concerned with the overall impact of having to wait at the very last minute to get this done when it should be something simple. I'm actually with Mark on this. I am on record, give me bringing people together totally off. You guys are like not even in the same book, not let alone the same page on taxes. But look at this on the for compromise. I've just been through so many of these dumb fights and it's not worth the risk that would happen if you know, there's another spontaneous fight between Trump and Pelosi and they can't come together. I think we should just yeah, right, I think we should just eliminate the debt limit altogether. And uh, you know, forget this, uh these manufactured crises that we come up with every two years. How would how would that look? Explain that because the folks who are who are driving from from work to here get rid of the debt limit. How how would that love the demo would the mechanism being the Develomit doesn't affect how much we spend. It allows us to borrow to pay for obligations we we've already made. And you know we've never breached the debt limit. Every time we get close to it and we need to borrow more to pay for Medicare or Social Security payments or the military, uh, Congress has to vote to increase the statutory limit that says this is how much you can borrow. Um. In recent years, it has just become sort of a political football. For a long time, they would sort of hide the vote on it, and any time you passed a budget, it automatically went up. And we sort of got rid of that over time. UM. So now it becomes this big dramatic thing, and you can't it's so politically um dicey. Uh. There's so much politics around it that you can't even just vote on it on its own. And so what we've end up having to do is attach it to other things to give Member Congress some cover to suggest their voting for this, not the debt limit increase, because there's nothing more potent than a thirties second ad that says you voted to increase the amount, you know, the debt limit by you know, a trillion dollars or whatever it is. All right, coming up more politics, policy and analysis. I'll take you into the Spin room from last night, where I spoke with several of the candidates. Panel stays Brendan Buck, former spokesman and advisor to House Speaker Paul Ryan and now a partner at Seven Letters Communications and Mark Postenbach. He has a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at a Rock Solutions. He was also deputy press secretary to Biden's campaign in two thousand and eight and the press secretary at the Democratic National Committee. You can download the Sound On podcast on Apple on Apple's iTunes, at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find us at Radio dot com, I Heart Radio, and Spotify. I'm Kevin Cerelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Radio. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley. On Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven f m h D two, Baltimore. I'm Kevin SERELLI, Chief Washington correspondent FRO Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I stuck around the Motor City. I gotta be honest. I've been to Detroit before several times in the last cycle. But Detroit in the summer it is beautiful, beautiful, as we say back home in my hometown outside of Philly. Beautiful, the people, the food, the pizza. I didn't know Detroit was known for pizza. Let me tell you something. The pizza here is phenomenal. Uh. The sin you know, Shinola, they had that store on Fourteenth Street, but Shinola makes and they had a hotel here now and their food was amazing, to their waffles. Uh. So we have We've had a great time here in Detroit. I'll be back in Washington tomorrow. Uh. And there's been a lot of news, but I want to take us back into the spin room from last night to go back to the debate and what it means for this this quiet August recess summer. The next Democratic presidential debate is gonna be on September twelfth in Houston and the threshold, and I said this to Chairman Perez, Tom Perez, the chairman of the Democratic Party. I said, like, when are all these candidates respectfully drop out? I mean, there's a million candidates, if like running for president. And the points at the d n C made and I thought this was interesting, was you know, back the twelve cycle, Republicans had the kitty table debate, remember this, the kitty table debate, and then like the main event, and they didn't like that, so they thought, you know, we're just gonna do a random raffle uh and whoever gets on the stage gets on the stage. But the other thing that's interesting is that the d n C got a got the networks to get two nights, two nights of prime time coverage. And they're they're happy. I mean, there are folks who are at the d n C who were happy about that. I thought that was interesting. Brendan Buck is here. Brendan Buck is back in Washington. Rather, he works at Seven Letters Communications. He's a former advisor. It's a previous Republican Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan. Mark poston Bach is also with him in Washington. D C he's the democratic uh democratic strategist. He's a senior vice president at Rock Solutions in Washington. He's Forbiden back in two thousand and eight, uh and and was the profyterian sixteen over at the d n C Mark. I were talking about debates, and I heard through through my my buddy Daniel Littman at Politicos reporting that you actually you snuck triumph the insult comic dog, that little that puppet dog that insults everybody into a debate hall. What is the story with this? Well, actually, um, he was already credential I just okay, you know what that this soft topic because there are a couple of people Bloomberger couldn't get credentized. Go ahead. I was not involved in the credentialing process. Someone else had had, you know, dealt with that. So I apologize to any of your colleagues who were not able to get into that. Um. Basically, what happened was triumph is I don't know if that many people know, but uh, he's often late to things. Now he's uh he was like Triumphant the puppet and kept both you know, he got there a little too late and unfortunately, uh, secret service had made it difficult for him to get in. Uh wait wait wait, so try the installed comic book. The puppet couldn't get into the debate hall and he had a credential. Yeah, so he had to you know obviously as you know, they do uh security suites, and he was not what debate was this? This was I think it was Charleston. I believe that was January of and this was this was with Was this was this the general election? Or was this was the primary? Standard? And Clinton? Wow? Wow, all right, Brendan Buck, I mean you have some debate stories. I mean, what what what's the weirdest debate story that comes to mind from your memory? No. I was just telling them they're in the break that I've only actually been in one spin room in my life and Lucky, I'm like, I need a helmet, go ahead. Yeah. And you know they had a nice intern holding a sign next to me for people to come up if they wanted to talk, but nobody wanted to talk to me like this, and they were like Eric Fernshram and you know they're you know, hot shots in the Romney campaign who riched it in. It was kind of sad, you know, I gotta be honest. So if if you've never been to the debate spin room, I mean, it's it's bedlam and it's awesome. I mean, this is what I live for. Is like, you know, you've got like I don't know what they're called. What are those things called, like the signs with the rectangular signs with the names of all the campaigns, whatever they are, they're as lollipops. They're they're called lollipops. I didn't know that either, Mark Poston about just earning just coming in with the drop in the the wow. Today, I learned the T I L. Colon Today. I learned those signs are called lollipops. But I don't think you can refer to that. I'm like, so the Biden campaign is holding a lollipop in the spinner and people are gonna be like what I would well so last night. I mean, But but to Brendan's point, it is a little bit awkward when you have some of these senior campaigns and like no or even the candidates because there's so many of them, and no one wants to go to their lollipop because like you're like trying to get to Comba. Harris you're trying to get to Elizabeth Warren and then like there's like it's it's like it's like high school. It's like a high school dance. I mean, it's it's really fascinating, uh to to watch that. All Right, So I'm in the spin room anyway. But all that said, we took a long place to get to this back to the spind room. But I thought that Julie and cashtro did enough last night to get him in position for the third debate. Mark, do you agree, Yeah, I think he did a particularly good job. Hopefully for him. He's raising some money a little bit. Um. One thing that was interesting is after the debates and then I think it was Van Jones aske him oqution um sort of say, you know, your concern about ice, that's particularly it's big on your sort of agenda. Um, but can you, you know, basically disaggregate the idea that we should decriminalize people crossing the border um and ice. Couldn't you solve them, you know, deal with the ice issue, um and not decriminalize the border. He didn't really have a good answer there, so I think he might get pressed to the next debate. I think that obviously. I think it's in the last poll of people Um supported that policy of decriminalizing legal boarding across to the extent that he did well for himself in a Democratic primary, I think he probably did the most damage to the party overall by again having to talk about decriminalizing border crossings. You don't have to be a Trump nationalist to think that that's a crazy idea, and that is one of the things that you know that you know, along with providing free healthcare for legal immigrants, to the things that while you know it may provide an opening for him on this primary, is the kind of stuff that just really sets back. I think whoever the Democratic nominee is, if they have to adopt positions like that to win the nomination, it's just it's just crazy to most people. I think. So even beyond the issue of immigration, I mean medicare for all, and it really we talked earlier in the program about trade and tariffs and uh, you know, economic vision and whatnot, but medicare for all is a lingering issue and that Senator Sanders and Senator war And have forced every other candidate to react to. And Senator Kamala Harris, I mean, I think I can say this as a reporter, I mean, objectively speaking, her plan is not this is not Medicare for all, as Bernie Standers and Elizabeth Warren know it. Her plan is also uh, something that would separate, according to her her own words, would separate an individual's healthcare from their employer. We're here and I'm here in Detroit, Michigan, Mark Post and bach uh, And there are a lot of union workers who work for General Motors were g M s headquartered in Detroit, who might not want to give up their health care. And so how's that going to play in a general election? Well, I don't think it's going to be fatal for the Democratic Party. I think that you know, as as you know very well, and as Brendan knows, once you get into the general king people start moving to the middle. And so I see that happening on the issue of health care what I think right now for the Demo. But there, I mean, I got oppressive, respectfully because there I mean to me, some of these policies they're layand I mean Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are essentially saying like if if this is this is the new Democratic ideology, Medicare for all, the new that miss test, right, Yeah, the new moments. Yeah. I mean I think at the end of the day, I can speak only to the primary because that's why no for sure, right, And I think that in this particular case, um, everyone's sort of espousing some variation of Medicare for all. The problem is if you listen to Bernie Sanders and you listen to Elizabeth Warren, they make a provide a full throwed defense of the policy. And that's where I think. You know, Kamala Harris is a great candidate. I think she's going to remain very strong. But when when asked that question about Medicare for All and what her plan does, it's not so much the difference between her plan and Medicare for All. She didn't strong. She didn't seem confident in her answer, and I think that came through. So if you are gonna, you know, lay out a stake, you know, stake acclaim with respect to health care, it's got to be strong. People have to want to you know, people are going to believe it. We're gonna have to leave it there. Both of you. Please come back and thank you so much for holding down the fort for me in UH, Washington, d C, running Buck Mark Boston, Buck Brenn in front of the program. Mark first time on, but he'll be back. UH. Brendan's at Seven Letters Communications, Mark is at Rock Solutions. It's been I want to thank our whole team. I want to thank Ko in the control room, Charlie Valmer, Christine Baratta in d C. David Suckerman, our according field producer who has been on the road with me the past couple of days. UH, because it's it's a team effort and and I'm grateful for all of them. I'll be back in d C. Kevin CURRELLI, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg TV and Radio. Here listening, Tolmberg

Why from our nations this budget thing is going to do nothing Space Force. I still think it's interesting President Trump not playing his cards yet. Headlines policy and politics colliding to Bloomberg Sound On, the Insiders, the influencers, the insides. I would rather see a congressional solution. It's part of my DNA. The Senate map in looks a lot different than it looked in. You really have a divide within Team Trump. The president has to do exactly what people sent him here to do, which is to get it done. This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin Shirley on Bloomberg nine one and five points D two. I'm Kevin Sirelli, Chief Washington correspondent from Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm still in the Motor City, just outside of Detroit, Michigan, at Bloomberg's Detroit Bureau. It's ground zero for President Trump's trade policies and President Trump just within the last hour talking tough against China. We will break down the trade stance of President Trump every which way. Meanwhile, news on the debt ceiling advancing out of the Senate and now it appears well we've avoided another political hijinks for at least two years. What does that mean? Will dive into the specifics of that as well. And let's not forget fall out. Fall out, Complete political analysis and reporting from the second Democratic presidential Debate, which has brought me, of course here to Detroit, Michigan. Who had a breakout night, who needs to keep moving forward in order to qualify for the September debates, And what all mean for the front runner, Former Vice President Joe Biden? Can he hang on? Will dive into that with an all star panel. Brendan Buck is back. Brendan is a Republican strategist, and we also have a host of other folks. Uh to get to Mark Post. He is a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at Rock Solutions. He's the former national Press Secretary of the d n C during the president fidential campaign. But before we get into all of this, it is a beautiful day here just outside of Detroit, Michigan, where, of course the conclusion the conclusion of the second Democratic presidental debate wrapped up late last evening. We were in the spin room till midnight, and the talk of all of it is just whether or not former Vice President Joe Biden can hang on to his front runner status, or whether or not any of these mid tier candidates will break out and be able to fundraise off of some of the key moments of the past hours. You know, I was struck by a couple of things. We're gonna get into all of the policy ramifications, but when you take a step back, it really appears that this is a fight for the soul and the ideology of the Democratic platform on issues pertaining to the economy. And when Senator Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are espousing medicare for all talking about trade policies, there could not be any more of a clear to by. They didn't have to be on the stage last night against Biden in order, uh for this contrast to be made. We're gonna get to that with our all stars who are holding down the fort for me. Back in Washington, D C. Brendan buck is back. He's the former spokesman and adviser to HOW Speaker Paul Ryan and a partner now at Seven Letter. Mark poston Bach is a Democratic strategist. He is also a senior vice president at Rock Solutions, as well as the former National Press Secretary to the d n C during the presidential campaign. And I want to start with you. Your former boss, Paul Ryan knows a thing or two about the Midwest, obviously being from wid Hanson. And so last night at on the on the presidential debate stage, did Biden do what he needed to do to make that pitch to Midwest voters? Yeah, I mean, I think Biden really bought himself another six weeks as the front runner, because you know, it's not so much what he did, it's what nobody it's what nobody else on the stage was able to do. And that's really lay a glove on him. You know. Uh, Kamala Harris, who took him on quite memorably the first debate, found herself largely on defense, which is what happens when you sort of rise up to the top tier. Um. Corey Booker was I think probably the strongest contrast yesterday. Um, but even he you know, he had a few good lines and it seemed like he was going to get Biden on the ropes there and and and and throw the knockout punch, but he kind of held back a little bit. And you kind of get the sense that Corey Booker is not really comfortable in that attack dog role um and so basically we come out of here, I think it with a pretty much a status quo. And given that we're going into the you know, the summer August recess, people on vacation, people worrying about sending their kids back to school, we don't really have much in the way of political event until the next debate other than the Iowa State Fair. I imagine we're going to be sort of stuck where we were, which is with Biden the healthy lead in him really the only one in that moderate, if you will, lane among the top tier candidates. It was interesting just to see the pressure that comes on these lower tier tier candidates in the next forty eight to seven towers. They're gonna have to see how their poll numbers fair and see whether or not they can boost some of their credentials in order to qualify for the third Democratic presidential debate September twelve in Houston. Mark Postenbach, he has a Democratic strategist. Do any candidates drop out, and if so, when you know, I really think that you know whether or not they qualify for this next debate. It's going to be particularly important if you are running a race, UM, where you don't have a ton of money, UM, where you're able to or excuse me, unable to sort of get attention on TV. Um, we're unable to get traction where you're able to raise money. UM. I don't see anyone right now. I think it's really really early. I don't see anybody dropping out, UM until they don't make the next presidential debate debate. So UM again, right now, they're looking to get attention as much as possible. UM. Mr Yang last night was on CNN making a lot of interesting points, getting people's attention. UM. But at the end of the day, I still think it's going to be particularly early. It's gonna go up and down over the next couple of months. I mean, Elizabeth Warren UH seemed to do particularly well um the first night of the debates, but the reality is people thought she was done only a couple of months ago. They thought her rollout was botched, and so I think that really speaks to the fact that, UM, it's gonna be up and down. But as Brendan said at the end of this, I don't think either of these nights debates UH continuing thing. You know, it's it's interesting. Right. So there's the politics of this and and the policy, of course is set to be contrasted not just between Senator Elizabeth Warren and former Vice President Joe Biden, but also amongst Republicans. You know, President Trump as we speak route to Cincinnati, Ohio, he's hosting a fundraiser there and he will have a rally. I think he has a lot to talk about. And just before taking off leave in the White House for Cincinnati, he talked about trade policy. And we all know Michigan is a state that he carried. It's also a state I think people forget this that center. Excuse me that Senator Bernie Standers beat Hillary Clinton in during the Democratic presidential primary here in Michigan. This is where General Motors is headquartered. Uh, this is auto country, and this is virtually ground zero for U S. M c a for U S. China trade talks, and China. China was on President Trump's mind before he left to depart for Cincinnati from the White House. Take a listen to what presidents has to say about China eating it here he is we've taxed China on three billion dollars worth of goods and products being sold into our country, and China eats it because they have to pay it, because what they do is they devalue their currency and they push money out. But our tariffs precisely going to be part of the new republic looking ideology, the new democratic ideology. That's what we're gonna get into coming up next. You can download the sound on the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on applei to at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find me on I Heart Radio, Spotify, and Radio dot com. Panel stays and I'm Kevin Cirelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio, broadcasting live from the Detroit out technically right outside of Detroit, Michigan Bureau from Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven of m h D two Baltimore. We're now take it in tariffs on ten percent on over three hundred billion on two hundred and fifty billion, and it's been proven that our people are not paying for the terror. That was President Trump speaking earlier today depart during the White House en route to Cincinnati, Ohio, where the President is hosting a campaign re election rally as well as a fundraiser. It is the first rally that he has following the conclusion of the second Democratic presidential debate. I'm Kevin Cirelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm broadcasting from our Bloomberg Detroit bureau, where I've been camped not camped out, but I've been hanging out following the conclusion of the second Democratic presidential Debate. I'm joined back in Washington, d C. By Brendan buck. He is a former spokesman and adviser to House Speaker Paul Ryan. He's a Republican and now a partner at Seven Letters Communications. Mark poston Bach is also in Washington, d C. A Democratic strategist, senior vice president at Rock Solutions, and as well as the former National Press Secretary to the d n C during the During so Mark, in terms of tariffs, I mean you hear the President saying that he is going to be negotiator in chief. You know I'm here in Detroit. General Motors is headquartered here. Uh, this is really ground zero for the trade debate. How will the Democrats look to contrast themselves when making the pitch that they will be better at negotiating trade deals with China as well as with Europe and of course let's not forget about Mexico and Canada. Well, if there's one thing, UM and obviously being a business network, the most important thing for businesses is to have UM some sense of stability to understand what policies are coming out of the White House. Unfortunately, with President Trump, you have things that are like tweets. You're not seeing any particular announcements that's sort that are well thought out UM where he's consulting the business community, and that does having a real impact on UM businesses everywhere. You know, the most important UM reason why there's not much business investment despite the tax cuts, UM, despite President Trump's best efforts UM with respect the tariffs, is because of the uncertain t UM that these businesses are facing. And you know, when it comes to rural America and farms, despite the President's UM best efforts on making sure that UM that these folks are being taken care of, we're spending you know, more money than we're collecting and revenue on these tariffs. So I think Democrats, I think can lay claim to a pretty strong argument on that. You don't, Brendan Buck, I mean you know this. I mean just so being over the past couple of years on trade policy as it's made of a through the House of Representatives, from your time working with former Speaker Paul Ryan, I mean I was kind of reading between the lines and and and trying to trying to parse words the past two nights of the of the debate because I didn't hear I mean, you hear former Congress and Better Overwork say that tariffs or taxes. You hear some of the candidates say that tariffs are bad. But then when when I was listening to Senator Elizabeth Warren, she didn't say that. She actually criticized u s m C A which is likely going to get a vote in the fall. She criticized USMC because she says it's gonna help big pharma. But there's similarities, are there not? Between the way that President Trump negotiates on trade and the way that progressives like Senator Sanders and Senator Warren would negotiate it on trade? Right, I find very little to be happy about with the President's approach on trade. I had hoped that there would be a silver lining of some sort where Democrats would sort of reject what he's doing just because it's him and embrace a little more free trade. That's not happening. I mean, the reality is that he's acting like a Democrat, a sort of crazy Democrat, even when it comes to implementing tariffs. And it is perhaps the most self destructive thing that he does. I mean, he does a lot of self destructive things, obviously, But you know, the primary argument he's going to try to make for reelection is the economy. Um, and you know you've hit on it. It's not just the national economy. It's that region where you're sitting right now. The President won Michigan, but he wanted by like ten thousand votes. That's nothing. And yeah, there's the automotive is and the manufacturing in that region that are getting hit by this. But you know, there's also a lot of agricultural products that come out of that area. And if you look at a state like Wisconsin, where my boss is from, the uh, dairy farmers in Wisconsin are getting crushed right now now there's a number of reasons for it, but the trade war is part of it, and you know, I I imagine sort of the rhetoric plays well in that part of the country about you know, taking on China and fighting and doing that kind of thing. But at some point, you know, we're years into this now, the policy outcomes are not terribly good, and people are hurting, and again, all it does is undermine his central argument for reelection is that I've got a great economy going. And you know, I don't know who thought that this was, you know, a good idea of the latest action today. I imagine nobody did. I imagine this was another one of his just shoot from the hip, gut instinct. I'm gonna drop another ten percent tariff on China and and you know, that's gonna get me somewhere. And it would be one thing if he had been pushing these threats for for a while and and it yielded some type of results. But at this point it's pretty clear that China is not just gonna, you know, fold because of this, and hopefully we can learn a lesson soon and stop this nonsense. You know, we talk a lot about the uncertainty for the short term. But I mean, looking at that debate stage last night, the Democrats are are there are candidates that are are espousing very different trade policies and and the contrast between them and whether or not they believe tariffs are good or bad. There's a diversity of ideology that exists on the left regarding tariffs in particular, that also exists on the right. I mean, Brendan, I mean to hear you criticize the president's use of terrorists. I mean, as you know, there are staunch supporters of President Trump and this for example, who are also increasingly very critical and even introduced legislation to get him to reign in the use of tariffs. I want to play for you just one final bite about what President Trump, and he's trying to say that tariffs are actually costing not the U. S. Worker or or businesses, but that they're costing China. Take a listen to the President Trump before he left. First, since Nattie, we're taking in many billions of dollars. There's been absolutely no inflation, and frankly, it hasn't coast our consumer or anything could coast China. Mark Poston about Democratic strategists senior vice president at Rock Solutions. I mean, I you know, I want to I want to not conflate stories, but I think we also have to look to see the forest from the trees, and we have to think big picture, and we gotta keep it simple. And when you look at how the President is saying, like he did the other week, that there might not be a trade deal with China until after the election, he's setting expectations. And I think when you look at what could happen in the fall, he's banking, banking that U S m c A gets ratified. And I think you could even I mean you hear the news of today where he's you know, the tariffs on with China. I think you couldn't see a situation where he plucks on additional tariffs on Mexico in order to try to four the hand of Speaker Pelosi to get a vote, or even in another situation he could pull out of NAFTA altogether to try to force to get a vote. But in the short term, a lot more uncertain days ahead, are there not? Mark, Yeah, I do think there's uncertain the president. Part of it is that, as Brendan said, the president wakes up one day and makes a decision and that's it, and it's over a tweet. Um. I also think in many ways that a lot of his policies are to try and cover up for things that didn't work. Right. So the tax cuts, for example, we're supposed to um spur you know, business investment, and instead they did. I mean if you consider that, you know, you know, stock buybacks perhaps, but I mean, like the reality is that his tax cuts um didn't work. Most Americans aren't feeling um any better after the tax cuts, and so he's you know, sort of I'm not even there, and I can just see Brendan Buck like ready to literally like I don't even know, just like grab, I'm gonna I'm gonna get Martin the floor. But you know, go ahead, mark Um. You know, I think you know, he's constantly trying to find ways to sort of move the ball forward. I mean, if you look at something like healthcare for example, that you know, the GOP does not have a healthcare proposal, um if the A c A goes down, so what is the president trying to do? He's trying to come up with short term ideas and plans on things like prescription drugs or surprise billing. Um. And that's because he doesn't have anything to fall back on, and he refuses to sort of stop and and reevaluate where he is. He's just keep moving forward. So that's where we're going to see some of these policies that that aren't going to work over the course of all Right, Brandon respond, go ahead. Just this morning, the Wall Street Journal reported at the sort of wave of inversions that companies have been moving overseas has reversed as a result of the tax reform law that we passed. And I don't think anybody can argue that people aren't doing better than they were years before. In fact, the second quarter business investment was not super strong, but because for the preceding six quarters or so, it was quite strong. Um. You know, there's a lot of things you can criticize what the president has done. I don't think that you can suggest that tax reforms has not helped people feel better. Uh, it has not helped. It's hard to argue that it has not helped the business community, small small businesses. UM, and frankly just made people feel a little better about their lives, that they can get ahead a little more. All right, We're gonna keep this conversation going, coming up set ceiling time. Do you believe this President Trump got a deal with Speaker Pelosi. You can download Down on podcast by uh download on Apple it tunes, at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find us on Radio dot Com, I Heart Radio, and Spotify Panel Stay Stays, Brendan buck Mark Poston Back and I'm Kevin CURRELLI Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley on Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven f m h D two Baltimore. That is such a great song. YouTube's beautiful day. And I'm Kevin Sirelli, chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I'm I've stuck around Detroit and it is a beautiful day here in Detroit. It's been a beautiful past couple of days. I've been here on assignment covering the second Democratic presidential debate. But there's policy news that happened in the Upper Chamber back in Washington, d C. Brendan Buck is a former UH Press secretary to House Speaker Paul run Uh. He is also now at Seven Letters Communications. Mark poston Bach is a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at Rock Solutions and former National Press Secretary of the d n C. During the presidential campaign, Brendan, did you see this? Did you see this? What the Senate did today? They actually did something a sixties seven to eight vote. They passed a massive budget deal. This a according to CNN, that would stave off the looming threat of a potential default on US debt and prevent automatic spending cuts to domestic and military funding. They raised the death sailing. I mean, this is this is for two years, two years. I mean, Brendon, I feel like you're like, I couldn't we have gotten that back when I was in the in the House. No, I mean we actually didn't have too much Trump It's the the ironic ironic things. We didn't have too much trouble raising the debt limit with this president. I just don't think he cared too much about it. Now I am getting having a little fun with everybody is celebrating that the debt limit has been increased for two years. And you know, everybody thinks the drama is over. Um, hold up, we still have to fund the government. Um. And I think that we have quite the battle in store still ahead. Um. As you know, government funding will run out this fall. Uh. And the last time we went through this exercise, we had the longest government shutdown in history. I don't know that the dynamics have changed a lot, other than maybe the President realizing that that didn't work out too well for him. But we still have a lot of drama ahead of us. And UM. While it's certainly a good thing that we don't have to deal with the debt limit for another couple of years, I don't think the fund is quite over you. I mean, I'm an optimist, but a little drama for from a journalist perspective, markets drama. Drama can be a good thing. But there's no drama over the falling on the US debt. Right. You would say this is a win for them. I'm not trying to this is a win for Speaker Pelosi and President Trump. No. Uh, yeah, I believe so. I think again, to to Brendan's point here, we did strike a deal, but at the end of the day. Um, this is not something to be trifled with. I think that, um, if we were to sort of end this um as a as sort of a constant issue over time, I think the economy would be in a in a much better place. It just seems, um a little absurd that we have to go through this um every couple of years. So yeah, I think that this is a positive step, but I'm still concerned with the overall impact of having to wait at the very last minute to get this done when it should be something simple. I'm actually with Mark on this. I am on record, give me bringing people together totally off. You guys are like not even in the same book, not let alone the same page on taxes. But look at this on the for compromise. I've just been through so many of these dumb fights and it's not worth the risk that would happen if you know, there's another spontaneous fight between Trump and Pelosi and they can't come together. I think we should just yeah, right, I think we should just eliminate the debt limit altogether. And uh, you know, forget this, uh these manufactured crises that we come up with every two years. How would how would that look? Explain that because the folks who are who are driving from from work to here get rid of the debt limit. How how would that love the demo would the mechanism being the Develomit doesn't affect how much we spend. It allows us to borrow to pay for obligations we we've already made. And you know we've never breached the debt limit. Every time we get close to it and we need to borrow more to pay for Medicare or Social Security payments or the military, uh, Congress has to vote to increase the statutory limit that says this is how much you can borrow. Um. In recent years, it has just become sort of a political football. For a long time, they would sort of hide the vote on it, and any time you passed a budget, it automatically went up. And we sort of got rid of that over time. UM. So now it becomes this big dramatic thing, and you can't it's so politically um dicey. Uh. There's so much politics around it that you can't even just vote on it on its own. And so what we've end up having to do is attach it to other things to give Member Congress some cover to suggest their voting for this, not the debt limit increase, because there's nothing more potent than a thirties second ad that says you voted to increase the amount, you know, the debt limit by you know, a trillion dollars or whatever it is. All right, coming up more politics, policy and analysis. I'll take you into the Spin room from last night, where I spoke with several of the candidates. Panel stays Brendan Buck, former spokesman and advisor to House Speaker Paul Ryan and now a partner at Seven Letters Communications and Mark Postenbach. He has a Democratic strategist and senior vice president at a Rock Solutions. He was also deputy press secretary to Biden's campaign in two thousand and eight and the press secretary at the Democratic National Committee. You can download the Sound On podcast on Apple on Apple's iTunes, at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business app. You can also find us at Radio dot com, I Heart Radio, and Spotify. I'm Kevin Cerelli, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg Television and Radio. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin Surreley. On Bloomberg one and one oh five point seven f m h D two, Baltimore. I'm Kevin SERELLI, Chief Washington correspondent FRO Bloomberg Television and Bloomberg Radio. I stuck around the Motor City. I gotta be honest. I've been to Detroit before several times in the last cycle. But Detroit in the summer it is beautiful, beautiful, as we say back home in my hometown outside of Philly. Beautiful, the people, the food, the pizza. I didn't know Detroit was known for pizza. Let me tell you something. The pizza here is phenomenal. Uh. The sin you know, Shinola, they had that store on Fourteenth Street, but Shinola makes and they had a hotel here now and their food was amazing, to their waffles. Uh. So we have We've had a great time here in Detroit. I'll be back in Washington tomorrow. Uh. And there's been a lot of news, but I want to take us back into the spin room from last night to go back to the debate and what it means for this this quiet August recess summer. The next Democratic presidential debate is gonna be on September twelfth in Houston and the threshold, and I said this to Chairman Perez, Tom Perez, the chairman of the Democratic Party. I said, like, when are all these candidates respectfully drop out? I mean, there's a million candidates, if like running for president. And the points at the d n C made and I thought this was interesting, was you know, back the twelve cycle, Republicans had the kitty table debate, remember this, the kitty table debate, and then like the main event, and they didn't like that, so they thought, you know, we're just gonna do a random raffle uh and whoever gets on the stage gets on the stage. But the other thing that's interesting is that the d n C got a got the networks to get two nights, two nights of prime time coverage. And they're they're happy. I mean, there are folks who are at the d n C who were happy about that. I thought that was interesting. Brendan Buck is here. Brendan Buck is back in Washington. Rather, he works at Seven Letters Communications. He's a former advisor. It's a previous Republican Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan. Mark poston Bach is also with him in Washington. D C he's the democratic uh democratic strategist. He's a senior vice president at Rock Solutions in Washington. He's Forbiden back in two thousand and eight, uh and and was the profyterian sixteen over at the d n C Mark. I were talking about debates, and I heard through through my my buddy Daniel Littman at Politicos reporting that you actually you snuck triumph the insult comic dog, that little that puppet dog that insults everybody into a debate hall. What is the story with this? Well, actually, um, he was already credential I just okay, you know what that this soft topic because there are a couple of people Bloomberger couldn't get credentized. Go ahead. I was not involved in the credentialing process. Someone else had had, you know, dealt with that. So I apologize to any of your colleagues who were not able to get into that. Um. Basically, what happened was triumph is I don't know if that many people know, but uh, he's often late to things. Now he's uh he was like Triumphant the puppet and kept both you know, he got there a little too late and unfortunately, uh, secret service had made it difficult for him to get in. Uh wait wait wait, so try the installed comic book. The puppet couldn't get into the debate hall and he had a credential. Yeah, so he had to you know obviously as you know, they do uh security suites, and he was not what debate was this? This was I think it was Charleston. I believe that was January of and this was this was with Was this was this the general election? Or was this was the primary? Standard? And Clinton? Wow? Wow, all right, Brendan Buck, I mean you have some debate stories. I mean, what what what's the weirdest debate story that comes to mind from your memory? No. I was just telling them they're in the break that I've only actually been in one spin room in my life and Lucky, I'm like, I need a helmet, go ahead. Yeah. And you know they had a nice intern holding a sign next to me for people to come up if they wanted to talk, but nobody wanted to talk to me like this, and they were like Eric Fernshram and you know they're you know, hot shots in the Romney campaign who riched it in. It was kind of sad, you know, I gotta be honest. So if if you've never been to the debate spin room, I mean, it's it's bedlam and it's awesome. I mean, this is what I live for. Is like, you know, you've got like I don't know what they're called. What are those things called, like the signs with the rectangular signs with the names of all the campaigns, whatever they are, they're as lollipops. They're they're called lollipops. I didn't know that either, Mark Poston about just earning just coming in with the drop in the the wow. Today, I learned the T I L. Colon Today. I learned those signs are called lollipops. But I don't think you can refer to that. I'm like, so the Biden campaign is holding a lollipop in the spinner and people are gonna be like what I would well so last night. I mean, But but to Brendan's point, it is a little bit awkward when you have some of these senior campaigns and like no or even the candidates because there's so many of them, and no one wants to go to their lollipop because like you're like trying to get to Comba. Harris you're trying to get to Elizabeth Warren and then like there's like it's it's like it's like high school. It's like a high school dance. I mean, it's it's really fascinating, uh to to watch that. All Right, So I'm in the spin room anyway. But all that said, we took a long place to get to this back to the spind room. But I thought that Julie and cashtro did enough last night to get him in position for the third debate. Mark, do you agree, Yeah, I think he did a particularly good job. Hopefully for him. He's raising some money a little bit. Um. One thing that was interesting is after the debates and then I think it was Van Jones aske him oqution um sort of say, you know, your concern about ice, that's particularly it's big on your sort of agenda. Um, but can you, you know, basically disaggregate the idea that we should decriminalize people crossing the border um and ice. Couldn't you solve them, you know, deal with the ice issue, um and not decriminalize the border. He didn't really have a good answer there, so I think he might get pressed to the next debate. I think that obviously. I think it's in the last poll of people Um supported that policy of decriminalizing legal boarding across to the extent that he did well for himself in a Democratic primary, I think he probably did the most damage to the party overall by again having to talk about decriminalizing border crossings. You don't have to be a Trump nationalist to think that that's a crazy idea, and that is one of the things that you know that you know, along with providing free healthcare for legal immigrants, to the things that while you know it may provide an opening for him on this primary, is the kind of stuff that just really sets back. I think whoever the Democratic nominee is, if they have to adopt positions like that to win the nomination, it's just it's just crazy to most people. I think. So even beyond the issue of immigration, I mean medicare for all, and it really we talked earlier in the program about trade and tariffs and uh, you know, economic vision and whatnot, but medicare for all is a lingering issue and that Senator Sanders and Senator war And have forced every other candidate to react to. And Senator Kamala Harris, I mean, I think I can say this as a reporter, I mean, objectively speaking, her plan is not this is not Medicare for all, as Bernie Standers and Elizabeth Warren know it. Her plan is also uh, something that would separate, according to her her own words, would separate an individual's healthcare from their employer. We're here and I'm here in Detroit, Michigan, Mark Post and bach uh, And there are a lot of union workers who work for General Motors were g M s headquartered in Detroit, who might not want to give up their health care. And so how's that going to play in a general election? Well, I don't think it's going to be fatal for the Democratic Party. I think that you know, as as you know very well, and as Brendan knows, once you get into the general king people start moving to the middle. And so I see that happening on the issue of health care what I think right now for the Demo. But there, I mean, I got oppressive, respectfully because there I mean to me, some of these policies they're layand I mean Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are essentially saying like if if this is this is the new Democratic ideology, Medicare for all, the new that miss test, right, Yeah, the new moments. Yeah. I mean I think at the end of the day, I can speak only to the primary because that's why no for sure, right, And I think that in this particular case, um, everyone's sort of espousing some variation of Medicare for all. The problem is if you listen to Bernie Sanders and you listen to Elizabeth Warren, they make a provide a full throwed defense of the policy. And that's where I think. You know, Kamala Harris is a great candidate. I think she's going to remain very strong. But when when asked that question about Medicare for All and what her plan does, it's not so much the difference between her plan and Medicare for All. She didn't strong. She didn't seem confident in her answer, and I think that came through. So if you are gonna, you know, lay out a stake, you know, stake acclaim with respect to health care, it's got to be strong. People have to want to you know, people are going to believe it. We're gonna have to leave it there. Both of you. Please come back and thank you so much for holding down the fort for me in UH, Washington, d C, running Buck Mark Boston, Buck Brenn in front of the program. Mark first time on, but he'll be back. UH. Brendan's at Seven Letters Communications, Mark is at Rock Solutions. It's been I want to thank our whole team. I want to thank Ko in the control room, Charlie Valmer, Christine Baratta in d C. David Suckerman, our according field producer who has been on the road with me the past couple of days. UH, because it's it's a team effort and and I'm grateful for all of them. I'll be back in d C. Kevin CURRELLI, Chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg TV and Radio. Here listening, Tolmberg