Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on appocarplaying Thenrouno with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on appocarplaying Thenrouno with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

Welcome to the fastest show in politics on Bloomberg TV and Radio forty eight million. How about it we get the number the ratings from the big debate last night. We just heard from Joe Biden a short time ago. He seems to be in full voice and he's definitely staying in this race. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines as we pick through the pieces here this day after the debate, and a fascinating Kayley tweet from Dave Wasserman.

Welcome to the fastest show in politics on Bloomberg TV and Radio forty eight million. How about it we get the number the ratings from the big debate last night. We just heard from Joe Biden a short time ago. He seems to be in full voice and he's definitely staying in this race. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines as we pick through the pieces here this day after the debate, and a fascinating Kayley tweet from Dave Wasserman.

At the Cook Political Report.

At the Cook Political Report.

We hear from our friends at Cook pretty often, and he tweeted this while he was watching the debate, making it abundantly clear. He said that Joe Biden's insistence on running for another term, sixty six percent of voters in our swing state pole belief it is likely he will not be able to finish a second term has gravely jeopardized Democrats' prospects to defeat Donald Trump.

We hear from our friends at Cook pretty often, and he tweeted this while he was watching the debate, making it abundantly clear. He said that Joe Biden's insistence on running for another term, sixty six percent of voters in our swing state pole belief it is likely he will not be able to finish a second term has gravely jeopardized Democrats' prospects to defeat Donald Trump.

And yet Joe Biden, speaking moments ago at a Raleigh rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, said that he intends to win North Carolina in November and win the election by extension. He also said he would not run again if he didn't believe he could do it. The question is, does is that belief shared by the American electorate and by even members of his own party after the performance in the debate last night.

And yet Joe Biden, speaking moments ago at a Raleigh rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, said that he intends to win North Carolina in November and win the election by extension. He also said he would not run again if he didn't believe he could do it. The question is, does is that belief shared by the American electorate and by even members of his own party after the performance in the debate last night.

Yeah, this could be a temporary freak out, one that could be recovered from. We all remember the first debate for Barack Obama, but this is the stakes are a bit different, and the narrative surrounding Joe Biden's age is one that Barack Obama was not dealing with when he hit the stage with Mitt Romney.

Yeah, this could be a temporary freak out, one that could be recovered from. We all remember the first debate for Barack Obama, but this is the stakes are a bit different, and the narrative surrounding Joe Biden's age is one that Barack Obama was not dealing with when he hit the stage with Mitt Romney.

Yeah, a very very good point. And of course Democrats today are having to speak about the president and what went down last night, speaking about the alternative and former President Donald Trump as well. And we're very lucky here on Balance of Power to be joined now in studio by Democratic Congresswoman Hailey Stevens of Michigan. Thank you for being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio on this day after Congresswoman, I think we can all call it like we saw it last night. It was a difficult night for the president. He just said he wouldn't be running if he didn't believe that he could win. But why would a voter watching what happened last night believe that he is capable of not just beating Donald Trump, but seeing out a second term to completion.

Yeah, a very very good point. And of course Democrats today are having to speak about the president and what went down last night, speaking about the alternative and former President Donald Trump as well. And we're very lucky here on Balance of Power to be joined now in studio by Democratic Congresswoman Hailey Stevens of Michigan. Thank you for being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio on this day after Congresswoman, I think we can all call it like we saw it last night. It was a difficult night for the president. He just said he wouldn't be running if he didn't believe that he could win. But why would a voter watching what happened last night believe that he is capable of not just beating Donald Trump, but seeing out a second term to completion.

Well, he's the only one who has beaten Donald Trump and has debated him before and beaten him by seven million votes last time. And look, I'm not going to try and sugarcoat last night. It wasn't the best performance. It was shaky. I would have loved to hear the president talk more forcefully about his record. He's the one defending a woman's right to choose, he's the one standing up for abortion access. I have seen him talk about these things very forcefully. He also got an infrastructure bill done. But what crystallized last night is that people voters have had concerns about his age and about his fitness, and that now called that back into question. I personally, as a lawmaker who have done I've done big policy alongside this president I'm continuing to put my faith in him. He is in that big role to make decisions, and he has made a whole host of decisions very well, very effectively, and I'm going to continue to entrust him to do that and to speak clearly and honestly with the American people as he has done many times before.

Well, he's the only one who has beaten Donald Trump and has debated him before and beaten him by seven million votes last time. And look, I'm not going to try and sugarcoat last night. It wasn't the best performance. It was shaky. I would have loved to hear the president talk more forcefully about his record. He's the one defending a woman's right to choose, he's the one standing up for abortion access. I have seen him talk about these things very forcefully. He also got an infrastructure bill done. But what crystallized last night is that people voters have had concerns about his age and about his fitness, and that now called that back into question. I personally, as a lawmaker who have done I've done big policy alongside this president I'm continuing to put my faith in him. He is in that big role to make decisions, and he has made a whole host of decisions very well, very effectively, and I'm going to continue to entrust him to do that and to speak clearly and honestly with the American people as he has done many times before.

So this is something you see making its way through the convention, and Joe Biden is going to be the nominee obviously in your eyes, because a lot of people last night were talking about your governor. Governor Whitmer, did you talk to the governor after the debates to get her impressions on how things went.

So this is something you see making its way through the convention, and Joe Biden is going to be the nominee obviously in your eyes, because a lot of people last night were talking about your governor. Governor Whitmer, did you talk to the governor after the debates to get her impressions on how things went.

I talked to her a lot. I have not talked to her since the debate. I think she's fantastic. She has done a great job.

I talked to her a lot. I have not talked to her since the debate. I think she's fantastic. She has done a great job.

This whole idea of drafting her in a contested convention, though, is that crazy talk?

This whole idea of drafting her in a contested convention, though, is that crazy talk?

Well, look, George Packer talks about creative thinking to save democracy, and many Americans know that's what's on the line here. I mean, we have a former, twice impeached, convicted felon president who again couldn't announce January sixth, wouldn't say that he would embrace the results of a free and fair election, double down on abortion bands saying that the overturning of Roe was a great thing. And I know that Gretchen Wimmer is a fantastic surrogate for Joe Biden, and she has been standing alongside this administration and alongside him. Coming out of last night, I'm excited for her future. Again, that's her decision to make down the road in terms of what's going to happen and what's going to unfold over these next series of months. There's an amazing ground operat in Michigan and around this Biden campaign, dozens of field offices, sleeves rolled up, campaign staff, working hard, recruiting people for weekend events. Yes, last night was a tough night. I've worked on tough elections before, tough presidential elections. So we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeves and continue to see this through.

Well, look, George Packer talks about creative thinking to save democracy, and many Americans know that's what's on the line here. I mean, we have a former, twice impeached, convicted felon president who again couldn't announce January sixth, wouldn't say that he would embrace the results of a free and fair election, double down on abortion bands saying that the overturning of Roe was a great thing. And I know that Gretchen Wimmer is a fantastic surrogate for Joe Biden, and she has been standing alongside this administration and alongside him. Coming out of last night, I'm excited for her future. Again, that's her decision to make down the road in terms of what's going to happen and what's going to unfold over these next series of months. There's an amazing ground operat in Michigan and around this Biden campaign, dozens of field offices, sleeves rolled up, campaign staff, working hard, recruiting people for weekend events. Yes, last night was a tough night. I've worked on tough elections before, tough presidential elections. So we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeves and continue to see this through.

But as you described this as tough, and we have known even prior to tonight that this was likely to be a very close election decided by a very small group of voters, including in your state of Michigan, one of the critical swing states here. Would it be less tough would it be easier if the candidate wasn't Joe Biden. I guess my question, is Joe Biden the only person in your eyes capable of beating Donald Trump? Or could someone else do it just as easily.

But as you described this as tough, and we have known even prior to tonight that this was likely to be a very close election decided by a very small group of voters, including in your state of Michigan, one of the critical swing states here. Would it be less tough would it be easier if the candidate wasn't Joe Biden. I guess my question, is Joe Biden the only person in your eyes capable of beating Donald Trump? Or could someone else do it just as easily.

Well, look, and I understand why you're asking me these questions, because that's your job. And certainly the hypotheticals, right, you know, it would have been nice if Donald Trump decided not to run again. It would have been nice if maybe another candidate could have beaten him in that major primary that he had. This man is back, He's told us he wants to be a dictator. On day one. We've got a guy who's who has won before against Donald Trump, overwhelmingly, has an incredible track record, has a strong vice president who, by the way, right now is really shining. Listen to her on the national stage right now. Look at the track record, look at the trustworthiness. And so, yeah, we could sit here and say, gosh, it would be great to have some you know, perfect hypothetical candidate coming out of the sun that's going to save us all. But that's not the system. And maybe we are in a moment of doing some deep thinking around reforms for our democracy. You know, there's a lot of things that haven't been adjusted or changed, a lot of frustrations. We've got ballooning debt and deficit under a multitude of presidents. We've got a problem at our border. We've got you know, tight majorities that just pendulum swing between five seats here, five seats there. And yes, we have sometimes a frustratingly undemocratic part that gets us presidents of the United States. When you don't win the popular vote, but you win by ten thousand votes between a handful of states, that feels frustrating to the American public.

Well, look, and I understand why you're asking me these questions, because that's your job. And certainly the hypotheticals, right, you know, it would have been nice if Donald Trump decided not to run again. It would have been nice if maybe another candidate could have beaten him in that major primary that he had. This man is back, He's told us he wants to be a dictator. On day one. We've got a guy who's who has won before against Donald Trump, overwhelmingly, has an incredible track record, has a strong vice president who, by the way, right now is really shining. Listen to her on the national stage right now. Look at the track record, look at the trustworthiness. And so, yeah, we could sit here and say, gosh, it would be great to have some you know, perfect hypothetical candidate coming out of the sun that's going to save us all. But that's not the system. And maybe we are in a moment of doing some deep thinking around reforms for our democracy. You know, there's a lot of things that haven't been adjusted or changed, a lot of frustrations. We've got ballooning debt and deficit under a multitude of presidents. We've got a problem at our border. We've got you know, tight majorities that just pendulum swing between five seats here, five seats there. And yes, we have sometimes a frustratingly undemocratic part that gets us presidents of the United States. When you don't win the popular vote, but you win by ten thousand votes between a handful of states, that feels frustrating to the American public.

Well, we really appreciate this conversation.

Well, we really appreciate this conversation.

I know you're not a spokesman for Joe Biden, but it's important to have this talk right now because people are trying to figure things out today. And one of the big issues that you know a lot about, because it might mean more to Michigan than some other states, is the issue of tariffs. Joe Biden has his approach on this, specifically when it comes.

I know you're not a spokesman for Joe Biden, but it's important to have this talk right now because people are trying to figure things out today. And one of the big issues that you know a lot about, because it might mean more to Michigan than some other states, is the issue of tariffs. Joe Biden has his approach on this, specifically when it comes.

To ev s. Speaking of Michigan.

To ev s. Speaking of Michigan.

Donald Trump has a very different approach, and he got into this was one of the few moments of policy I might be able to points to you from last night.

Donald Trump has a very different approach, and he got into this was one of the few moments of policy I might be able to points to you from last night.

Listen to Donald Trump from the debate.

Listen to Donald Trump from the debate.

It's just going to cause countries that have been ripping us off for years, like China and many others. In all fairness to China, it's going to just force them to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously, and give us a lot of power for other things.

It's just going to cause countries that have been ripping us off for years, like China and many others. In all fairness to China, it's going to just force them to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously, and give us a lot of power for other things.

Or will it do something else like increase inflation at a time when we might be on the cusp of meeting it.

Or will it do something else like increase inflation at a time when we might be on the cusp of meeting it.

Well, look, we know that President trump China policy was tariffs, and that did contribute to inflation. President Biden's approach has been aggressive public private partnerships. Industrial policy to the likes of this nation has never seen. You can look to the Chips and Science Act, the fifty two billion dollars that's been put into the marketplace by the federal government to say that we're going to start making chips here in the United States of America. That was met within the first quarter of its signing Joe with two hundred billion dollars of private sector contributions. These are things that are paying for themselves. We're also seeing this with the energy transition, where automotive industry is going, where ethanol is going tax credits that are also working for us. I think President Biden did the right thing saying, hey, I'm putting teariffs down because I'm not letting cheap evs flood our market. That's what's really frustrating with the Chinese Communist Party and how they do business.

Well, look, we know that President trump China policy was tariffs, and that did contribute to inflation. President Biden's approach has been aggressive public private partnerships. Industrial policy to the likes of this nation has never seen. You can look to the Chips and Science Act, the fifty two billion dollars that's been put into the marketplace by the federal government to say that we're going to start making chips here in the United States of America. That was met within the first quarter of its signing Joe with two hundred billion dollars of private sector contributions. These are things that are paying for themselves. We're also seeing this with the energy transition, where automotive industry is going, where ethanol is going tax credits that are also working for us. I think President Biden did the right thing saying, hey, I'm putting teariffs down because I'm not letting cheap evs flood our market. That's what's really frustrating with the Chinese Communist Party and how they do business.

Finally, as you seek to legislative accomplishments like the Chips Act, obviously we are deep in this election cycle. What can we expect from you and your colleagues between now and the election? Is anything robust actually going to be able to get across the finish line?

Finally, as you seek to legislative accomplishments like the Chips Act, obviously we are deep in this election cycle. What can we expect from you and your colleagues between now and the election? Is anything robust actually going to be able to get across the finish line?

Well, you know, it's summertime and that senioritis just kicking in a little bit, you know, that itchiness to be home, be in your district. Shaking hands. Okay, you know, the elections are in some ways closer than we think, but we do have a whole host of work to get done. In One of the bright lights is this AI task Force that I'm sitting on and we're meeting very regularly. We've gotten direction from both Republican leadership and Democratic leadership that we need to, you know, come forward with some ideas that there's a real want to pass some legislation around AI, if it's looking at regulations or even more so, protecting people's privacy, but also ensuring that we can bolster innovation and harness the good, dictate the rules of the road around artificial intelligence for our public health sector, for sciences, and for small businesses across America. So I'm remaining pretty dedicated to that activity.

Well, you know, it's summertime and that senioritis just kicking in a little bit, you know, that itchiness to be home, be in your district. Shaking hands. Okay, you know, the elections are in some ways closer than we think, but we do have a whole host of work to get done. In One of the bright lights is this AI task Force that I'm sitting on and we're meeting very regularly. We've gotten direction from both Republican leadership and Democratic leadership that we need to, you know, come forward with some ideas that there's a real want to pass some legislation around AI, if it's looking at regulations or even more so, protecting people's privacy, but also ensuring that we can bolster innovation and harness the good, dictate the rules of the road around artificial intelligence for our public health sector, for sciences, and for small businesses across America. So I'm remaining pretty dedicated to that activity.

This is an important conversation for us at Bloomberg, as you know, so come back not the day after a debate, and let's.

This is an important conversation for us at Bloomberg, as you know, so come back not the day after a debate, and let's.

Have a real talk about it.

Have a real talk about it.

Talk about it.

Talk about it.

Yeah, Yeah, And what you're going to get done in the Lane duck session. I think that's going to be the biggest story of this Congress. Great to see you, Congressoman Haley Stevens with us at that's able, the Democrat from Michigan. There you have it, Kayley, from someone who's there and a Democrat who needs to make the case.

Yeah, Yeah, And what you're going to get done in the Lane duck session. I think that's going to be the biggest story of this Congress. Great to see you, Congressoman Haley Stevens with us at that's able, the Democrat from Michigan. There you have it, Kayley, from someone who's there and a Democrat who needs to make the case.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and enroyd Otto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and enroyd Otto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

The President is about to speak. Welcome to the fastest show in politics. As Joe Biden returns to the campaign trail this day after a challenged performance in his first debate with Donald Trump and Atlanta. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington and Kaylee the President is hearing intense criticism and even in some cases calls to drop out of the race. Calls that are coming from inside the House.

The President is about to speak. Welcome to the fastest show in politics. As Joe Biden returns to the campaign trail this day after a challenged performance in his first debate with Donald Trump and Atlanta. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington and Kaylee the President is hearing intense criticism and even in some cases calls to drop out of the race. Calls that are coming from inside the House.

Yeah, this is members of both the Democrat and Republican Party who, in the aftermath of the debate are questioning Joe Biden's ability to carry on as the Democratic nominee. Keeping in mind that this debate happened so early in June, before Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the official party nominees, the conventions have not yet taken place, and after the events of last night and the times halting and difficult performance that Joe Biden put up, there is an open question as to what exactly is going to go down in Chicago and August and.

Yeah, this is members of both the Democrat and Republican Party who, in the aftermath of the debate are questioning Joe Biden's ability to carry on as the Democratic nominee. Keeping in mind that this debate happened so early in June, before Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the official party nominees, the conventions have not yet taken place, and after the events of last night and the times halting and difficult performance that Joe Biden put up, there is an open question as to what exactly is going to go down in Chicago and August and.

Even today in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you're with us on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube, you see live shots from the podium as we prepare to hear from Joe Biden for the first time since Atlanta last night. A frog in his throat at best, I guess a cold at worst. I'm not sure what we heard exactly there, Kaylee, but we brought special coverage of the CNN presidential debate last evening.

Even today in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you're with us on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube, you see live shots from the podium as we prepare to hear from Joe Biden for the first time since Atlanta last night. A frog in his throat at best, I guess a cold at worst. I'm not sure what we heard exactly there, Kaylee, but we brought special coverage of the CNN presidential debate last evening.

Here on Bloomberry.

Here on Bloomberry.

People were struck by his inability in some cases to articulate numbers and ideas and halting performance. He even froze up at one moment pretty early in the debate. If you want to hear a taste of that right now, here's Joe Biden from Atlanta last night.

People were struck by his inability in some cases to articulate numbers and ideas and halting performance. He even froze up at one moment pretty early in the debate. If you want to hear a taste of that right now, here's Joe Biden from Atlanta last night.

Stars in our healthcare system making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with everything we have to do with Look, if we finally beat medicare.

Stars in our healthcare system making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with everything we have to do with Look, if we finally beat medicare.

Donald Trump took the ball and ran with that, Kayley. That was the moment last night where people in some cases started to tune out and other cases expressed deep concern about what was going on.

Donald Trump took the ball and ran with that, Kayley. That was the moment last night where people in some cases started to tune out and other cases expressed deep concern about what was going on.

Democrats, namely, Yeah, and it happened very early on. We were not fifteen minutes into the debate, when certainly social media started to become in it tizzy, and of course Biden's inability at times to articulate his message, to properly state his own policy positions and facts of his administration kind of overshadowed the facts that Donald Trump, for his part, told litany of falsehoods, misstating facts of his own lying, not being checked by the moderators on CNN, but not being effectively checked by Joe Biden either.

Democrats, namely, Yeah, and it happened very early on. We were not fifteen minutes into the debate, when certainly social media started to become in it tizzy, and of course Biden's inability at times to articulate his message, to properly state his own policy positions and facts of his administration kind of overshadowed the facts that Donald Trump, for his part, told litany of falsehoods, misstating facts of his own lying, not being checked by the moderators on CNN, but not being effectively checked by Joe Biden either.

They did decide to do that after the fact. By the way, the moderators allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post debate analysis on CNN. Look, when he comes out, We're going to bring you live to North Carolina. Everyone is wondering how Joe Biden is sounding and is feeling today, what his posture will be at this event where they're really trying to wind up the crowd. Kley, but we have a chance to talk to Steve Dupree, the owner of Dupre Companies, the former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, who we've stayed in touch with since the New Hampshire primary, was formerly backing Nicky Haley on the campaign trail, and as we wake up this morning to a world that feels a bit different and more assured according to some for Donald Trump, we wanted to talk to Steve about the way this is going. Mister Dupree, welcome back. It's great to see you on Bloomberg TV and radio. I wonder what was going through your mind as you were watching this last night, or how you felt this morning. If you feel like Donald Trump is closer to the White House.

They did decide to do that after the fact. By the way, the moderators allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post debate analysis on CNN. Look, when he comes out, We're going to bring you live to North Carolina. Everyone is wondering how Joe Biden is sounding and is feeling today, what his posture will be at this event where they're really trying to wind up the crowd. Kley, but we have a chance to talk to Steve Dupree, the owner of Dupre Companies, the former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, who we've stayed in touch with since the New Hampshire primary, was formerly backing Nicky Haley on the campaign trail, and as we wake up this morning to a world that feels a bit different and more assured according to some for Donald Trump, we wanted to talk to Steve about the way this is going. Mister Dupree, welcome back. It's great to see you on Bloomberg TV and radio. I wonder what was going through your mind as you were watching this last night, or how you felt this morning. If you feel like Donald Trump is closer to the White House.

Well, watching it last night was discouraging on both fronts. On the one hand, we have a former president who's convicted felon, faces more felony charges, who has forty out of forty five or some number of senior cabinet level of people in his past administration won't endorse him telling falsehood's left and right. And on the other hand, we have a president who's conducted himself honorably, restored relations with allies, handle the Ukraine and the China situations well, but clearly did not show the kind of mental acuity that's expected of a president. I mean, I think it was the worst debate performance, certainly in the history of televised debates, and President Biden had one task, which was to show that he's up for the job, and he failed last night. You know, I think it's a direct byproduct which happens in every administration where they product the incumbent. Had President Biden been subjected to somewhat of a primary challenge been in New Hampshire or some other places, either he would have been sharper or the Democratic Party would have realized that they had a challenge.

Well, watching it last night was discouraging on both fronts. On the one hand, we have a former president who's convicted felon, faces more felony charges, who has forty out of forty five or some number of senior cabinet level of people in his past administration won't endorse him telling falsehood's left and right. And on the other hand, we have a president who's conducted himself honorably, restored relations with allies, handle the Ukraine and the China situations well, but clearly did not show the kind of mental acuity that's expected of a president. I mean, I think it was the worst debate performance, certainly in the history of televised debates, and President Biden had one task, which was to show that he's up for the job, and he failed last night. You know, I think it's a direct byproduct which happens in every administration where they product the incumbent. Had President Biden been subjected to somewhat of a primary challenge been in New Hampshire or some other places, either he would have been sharper or the Democratic Party would have realized that they had a challenge.

Well, and now there is much speculation this morning Steve as to whether or not the Democratic Party, or at least key figureheads within it, including the First Lady Joe Biden, are going to begin to press Joe Biden to consider leaving this race and allowing someone else to become the official nominee for Donald Trump. Though does he need Joe Biden to be the nominee to win this thing?

Well, and now there is much speculation this morning Steve as to whether or not the Democratic Party, or at least key figureheads within it, including the First Lady Joe Biden, are going to begin to press Joe Biden to consider leaving this race and allowing someone else to become the official nominee for Donald Trump. Though does he need Joe Biden to be the nominee to win this thing?

I think certainly, you know, notwithstanding the fact that he has all of that baggage, and he had all those thirty plus false statements, he came across as vigorous, as animated, as in good mental and physical shape, and the contrast was disheartening certainly the Democrats, but disheartening for every American, regardless of who you support. So I think it obviously President Biden would be a strong candidate, notwithstanding last night, just from what we've seen in the polls. But if it opens up and there were a new nominee, who knows who that person could be and whether they could mount the kind of campaign you'd needed. But certainly last night's debate gave President Trump a clear win, and it'll be very interesting to see the polls over the next few days, which were showing a tightening to the race, whether that remains the same.

I think certainly, you know, notwithstanding the fact that he has all of that baggage, and he had all those thirty plus false statements, he came across as vigorous, as animated, as in good mental and physical shape, and the contrast was disheartening certainly the Democrats, but disheartening for every American, regardless of who you support. So I think it obviously President Biden would be a strong candidate, notwithstanding last night, just from what we've seen in the polls. But if it opens up and there were a new nominee, who knows who that person could be and whether they could mount the kind of campaign you'd needed. But certainly last night's debate gave President Trump a clear win, and it'll be very interesting to see the polls over the next few days, which were showing a tightening to the race, whether that remains the same.

You've been at this for a minute, Steve. You know what it's like to be a delegate at a convention. You don't buy this talk of a contested convention, right, This is fantasy journalists, isn't it?

You've been at this for a minute, Steve. You know what it's like to be a delegate at a convention. You don't buy this talk of a contested convention, right, This is fantasy journalists, isn't it?

Generally it is. But certainly if there ever were a case where somebody stepped down and you had an open convention, this might be it. It really depends on whether the Democratic Party stays behind President Biden, which it seems they're doing right now, or whether they start to move away from him. And Frank, I think you're going to see a lot of the Democratic operatives watching the poll numbers over the next few days and seeing if the results of the primary the debate rather start to make these polls go away.

Generally it is. But certainly if there ever were a case where somebody stepped down and you had an open convention, this might be it. It really depends on whether the Democratic Party stays behind President Biden, which it seems they're doing right now, or whether they start to move away from him. And Frank, I think you're going to see a lot of the Democratic operatives watching the poll numbers over the next few days and seeing if the results of the primary the debate rather start to make these polls go away.

Well here at Bloomberg, obviously we do like to look at the data and look at the polling data, but we also like to look at the financial data on fundraising. After for two months in a row, in April and May, the Biden and the DNC effort was outraised by Donald Trump and the RNC. Interestingly, though, based on the data we're getting from the campaigns today, the Biden campaign says yesterday and part of today it raised fourteen million. Donald Trump's campaign says it raised eight million after the debate. Is that telling to you in some way.

Well here at Bloomberg, obviously we do like to look at the data and look at the polling data, but we also like to look at the financial data on fundraising. After for two months in a row, in April and May, the Biden and the DNC effort was outraised by Donald Trump and the RNC. Interestingly, though, based on the data we're getting from the campaigns today, the Biden campaign says yesterday and part of today it raised fourteen million. Donald Trump's campaign says it raised eight million after the debate. Is that telling to you in some way.

Steve.

Steve.

No, I don't think so, because President Trump had two incredible months and virtually erased a large part of the gap between between the two. So I don't think this overnight fundraising. I think people loyal to the president decided they better pony up and show their support. So I don't really think. I don't read a lot to that into that. I really do think though, polling over the next few days will show whether President Biden maintains the level of support and what looked to be a closing race, or whether it starts to fall away and there's nothing that will increase the chatter more to try to get him to step down. Then the polls diverging substantially over the next week.

No, I don't think so, because President Trump had two incredible months and virtually erased a large part of the gap between between the two. So I don't think this overnight fundraising. I think people loyal to the president decided they better pony up and show their support. So I don't really think. I don't read a lot to that into that. I really do think though, polling over the next few days will show whether President Biden maintains the level of support and what looked to be a closing race, or whether it starts to fall away and there's nothing that will increase the chatter more to try to get him to step down. Then the polls diverging substantially over the next week.

We talked to Governor Chris Sninu just a couple of days ago. Steve talked about his evolution and why he plans to vote for Donald Trump. How many former Nicky Haley supporters planned to do the same following Christino in that direction in the state of New Hampshire.

We talked to Governor Chris Sninu just a couple of days ago. Steve talked about his evolution and why he plans to vote for Donald Trump. How many former Nicky Haley supporters planned to do the same following Christino in that direction in the state of New Hampshire.

I think a fair number of them will. I mean Christininu has said, Look, I disagree with President Trump and the way he conducts himself. I don't like how erradic he is and how he's treated our allies. But a Republican administration has more to it than just a president, and he thinks that more can be accomplished there. So I do think some number of those will come over. But if this race stays close, and if the result of this debate doesn't worsen the poll numbers for President Biden, some percentage of those people in the five contested states will make the difference.

I think a fair number of them will. I mean Christininu has said, Look, I disagree with President Trump and the way he conducts himself. I don't like how erradic he is and how he's treated our allies. But a Republican administration has more to it than just a president, and he thinks that more can be accomplished there. So I do think some number of those will come over. But if this race stays close, and if the result of this debate doesn't worsen the poll numbers for President Biden, some percentage of those people in the five contested states will make the difference.

All right. Steve Dufree, owner of d pre company's former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, Thank you so much.

All right. Steve Dufree, owner of d pre company's former chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, Thank you so much.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Appo, car Play and then roud Otto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand where you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

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As we get back to the debate last night that which Democrats are freaking out this morning and Republicans are celebrating right or wrong.

As we get back to the debate last night that which Democrats are freaking out this morning and Republicans are celebrating right or wrong.

Oh you didn't see the debate. Here's a taste of Joe Biden and Donald Trump from last night.

Oh you didn't see the debate. Here's a taste of Joe Biden and Donald Trump from last night.

Making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with everything we have to do with Look if we finally beat medicare.

Making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with everything we have to do with Look if we finally beat medicare.

Okay, that was about fifteen minutes into the debate. It didn't get a lot better from there. As we assemble our panel for their take, Max Burns is back with us. The Democratics just at third degree strategies. Spend a while Lisa Kamusa Miller Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host of the Friday Reporter podcast, Max I keep hearing that there's going to be a different person nominated by the Democrats to run for president in twenty twenty four, Gavin Newsom, Governor Whitmer. Are we being serious here or is this going to be the nominee for Democrats?

Okay, that was about fifteen minutes into the debate. It didn't get a lot better from there. As we assemble our panel for their take, Max Burns is back with us. The Democratics just at third degree strategies. Spend a while Lisa Kamusa Miller Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host of the Friday Reporter podcast, Max I keep hearing that there's going to be a different person nominated by the Democrats to run for president in twenty twenty four, Gavin Newsom, Governor Whitmer. Are we being serious here or is this going to be the nominee for Democrats?

Well, I think Democrats do have a tendency to panic after bad performances like this. We saw it in twenty twelve when Barack Obama had a bust of a first debate against Mitt Romney, and there was a brief talk about potentially having him drop out and endorse Mark Zuckerberg. But I do think that over the next couple of weeks this will fade. But that doesn't mean that concerns are overblown. I mean, this was a rough performance, and much like Obama's, his team is going to have to come together with President Biden and actually discuss what went wrong and see what can be course corrected here.

Well, I think Democrats do have a tendency to panic after bad performances like this. We saw it in twenty twelve when Barack Obama had a bust of a first debate against Mitt Romney, and there was a brief talk about potentially having him drop out and endorse Mark Zuckerberg. But I do think that over the next couple of weeks this will fade. But that doesn't mean that concerns are overblown. I mean, this was a rough performance, and much like Obama's, his team is going to have to come together with President Biden and actually discuss what went wrong and see what can be course corrected here.

Lisa Cabusa Miller literally drove off the road. She's pulled her car over to talk to us. Lisa, It's good to have you back. Do we call this a win? For Donald Trump or simply a loss for Joe Biden.

Lisa Cabusa Miller literally drove off the road. She's pulled her car over to talk to us. Lisa, It's good to have you back. Do we call this a win? For Donald Trump or simply a loss for Joe Biden.

This last night was such a gigantic disappointment for the American people too. I'm not really sure where to start, but what I will say is this is a gigantic loss for Joe Biden. I was so distracted by Joe Biden's behavior that I didn't even hear words that came out of Donald Trump's mouth. And if that's the way I consumed that debate last night, I suspect that that's very similar to the way that many many others did as well. And as much as I respect Max's point of view about course correction, to me, that was just so far gone and his behavior it just Joe Biden lost the election last night in my opinion.

This last night was such a gigantic disappointment for the American people too. I'm not really sure where to start, but what I will say is this is a gigantic loss for Joe Biden. I was so distracted by Joe Biden's behavior that I didn't even hear words that came out of Donald Trump's mouth. And if that's the way I consumed that debate last night, I suspect that that's very similar to the way that many many others did as well. And as much as I respect Max's point of view about course correction, to me, that was just so far gone and his behavior it just Joe Biden lost the election last night in my opinion.

Wow, you can weigh in on that point, Max, But I was going to ask you if you think last night's performance makes it more likely that Joe Biden debates again that makes good on this deal to debate in September to course correct to make up for last night, or much less likely because the staff.

Wow, you can weigh in on that point, Max, But I was going to ask you if you think last night's performance makes it more likely that Joe Biden debates again that makes good on this deal to debate in September to course correct to make up for last night, or much less likely because the staff.

Will not let him on another stage with Donald Trump again.

Will not let him on another stage with Donald Trump again.

Well, Joe Biden has already said that he's eager to debate again in September. That's going to be an interesting situation. I personally think it was very lucky for Biden that this was taking place in June instead of September or October, because, as we tend to see from debates going back to nineteen fifty two, they don't necessarily move polls for very long. Usually the effect wears off in about three weeks. And that's going to be a blessing for Joe Biden right now. Because as much as I believe what Joe Biden said up there was factual and was correct, I agree, I don't think the American people heard as much of what Joe Biden was saying because it was such a shockingly different Biden than they're used to seeing from twenty twenties debates.

Well, Joe Biden has already said that he's eager to debate again in September. That's going to be an interesting situation. I personally think it was very lucky for Biden that this was taking place in June instead of September or October, because, as we tend to see from debates going back to nineteen fifty two, they don't necessarily move polls for very long. Usually the effect wears off in about three weeks. And that's going to be a blessing for Joe Biden right now. Because as much as I believe what Joe Biden said up there was factual and was correct, I agree, I don't think the American people heard as much of what Joe Biden was saying because it was such a shockingly different Biden than they're used to seeing from twenty twenties debates.

Well, I don't know, Max, I mean, I don't know what it shocked this up to. He spent a week at Camp David, they had nothing but time put into the preparation here. I don't know if that was a frog in his throat, or if the White House is correct, he came back with some kind of a cold. Maybe they should have said that before he started talking in a way that was jarring when people heard the first words that came out of his mouth last night. But I think the question is about consistency, right, I mean, look at all the speeches at the White House.

Well, I don't know, Max, I mean, I don't know what it shocked this up to. He spent a week at Camp David, they had nothing but time put into the preparation here. I don't know if that was a frog in his throat, or if the White House is correct, he came back with some kind of a cold. Maybe they should have said that before he started talking in a way that was jarring when people heard the first words that came out of his mouth last night. But I think the question is about consistency, right, I mean, look at all the speeches at the White House.

About half the time he sounds kind of like that.

About half the time he sounds kind of like that.

It's just different when you're in a competitive debate and you're over prepared.

It's just different when you're in a competitive debate and you're over prepared.

Some people might even suggest, but what.

Some people might even suggest, but what.

About next year, what about four years from now, Max, what will he sound like then?

About next year, what about four years from now, Max, what will he sound like then?

Well?

Well?

I think those raised serious questions, and in many ways, yesterday was a tale of two Joe Biden's because after the debate, at a post debate rally in Atlanta, Joe Biden was on stage, cracking jokes. He sounded great, he was sharp, he was on point. And the one thing I was hearing from a lot of Democratic strategists and even members of Congress is where is that Joe Biden? For the ninety minutes that he was on the air in front of tens of millions of Americans. There is now, I think a resurgence of questions internally about whether Joe Biden's team is prepping him correctly, whether this situation could have been mitigated, or whether this is just the reality of running a candidate who is eighty one years old.

I think those raised serious questions, and in many ways, yesterday was a tale of two Joe Biden's because after the debate, at a post debate rally in Atlanta, Joe Biden was on stage, cracking jokes. He sounded great, he was sharp, he was on point. And the one thing I was hearing from a lot of Democratic strategists and even members of Congress is where is that Joe Biden? For the ninety minutes that he was on the air in front of tens of millions of Americans. There is now, I think a resurgence of questions internally about whether Joe Biden's team is prepping him correctly, whether this situation could have been mitigated, or whether this is just the reality of running a candidate who is eighty one years old.

Do you have any answers to those questions, Lisa, what do you think?

Do you have any answers to those questions, Lisa, what do you think?

Well, I mean, what is really sad is this is not a behavioral and it's not a performance issue. This is the fact that he is absolutely at an age where this is beyond his capability. And that is really my point of view. And you know that I'm not terribly fond of the Republican nominee either, but this in favor this Joe is incredibly concerning. We watched a very strong Joe Biden at the State of Union and it's only been three or four months later, and he has clearly declined. And now we're considering the fact that he will be not declining more over the course of the next four years. That to me, it's beyond the pale. There is no coming back from this, and I think the Democrats have a very very good reason to be concerned. They are seeding the win and seeding the White House to Donald Trump if they continue to put Joe Biden on the ballot in the fall.

Well, I mean, what is really sad is this is not a behavioral and it's not a performance issue. This is the fact that he is absolutely at an age where this is beyond his capability. And that is really my point of view. And you know that I'm not terribly fond of the Republican nominee either, but this in favor this Joe is incredibly concerning. We watched a very strong Joe Biden at the State of Union and it's only been three or four months later, and he has clearly declined. And now we're considering the fact that he will be not declining more over the course of the next four years. That to me, it's beyond the pale. There is no coming back from this, and I think the Democrats have a very very good reason to be concerned. They are seeding the win and seeding the White House to Donald Trump if they continue to put Joe Biden on the ballot in the fall.

There's no coming back from this. Lisa, you just said Joe Biden lost the election last night. We're going to have some time for Donald Trump here. But Max, is there a world in which some sort of deal is struck or does that mean a Kamala Harris run for the next turn?

There's no coming back from this. Lisa, you just said Joe Biden lost the election last night. We're going to have some time for Donald Trump here. But Max, is there a world in which some sort of deal is struck or does that mean a Kamala Harris run for the next turn?

What the heck would happen?

What the heck would happen?

Well, the big problem here is that the question of who is not a clear one, and the people who are calling for an open convention or Joe Biden stepping aside severely underestimate the chaos that would cause in the party. It wouldn't just be expensive and incredibly polarizing, but it would effectively pit all of the democratic parties demographic groups against each other in a way that would be incredible disabling for the party that's currently trying to promote a message of unity and a message that democracy is on the ballot here. It would create a mess that I think a lot of people are not aware of because we haven't seen a convention like that in our lifetimes.

Well, the big problem here is that the question of who is not a clear one, and the people who are calling for an open convention or Joe Biden stepping aside severely underestimate the chaos that would cause in the party. It wouldn't just be expensive and incredibly polarizing, but it would effectively pit all of the democratic parties demographic groups against each other in a way that would be incredible disabling for the party that's currently trying to promote a message of unity and a message that democracy is on the ballot here. It would create a mess that I think a lot of people are not aware of because we haven't seen a convention like that in our lifetimes.

That's for sure.

That's for sure.

Even though it's the fantasy of journalists every four years, no one really thought it was going to happen. Lisa, is that how this ends for Democrats in Chicago?

Even though it's the fantasy of journalists every four years, no one really thought it was going to happen. Lisa, is that how this ends for Democrats in Chicago?

You know, it's hard to tell.

You know, it's hard to tell.

Joe.

Joe.

There's a lot. I think Max is right. I think this is a lot more difficult than people understand, and it would create a tremendous amount of turmoil. But I also think too that it's really kind of the Democrat's fault in the first place that no one stood up and said that maybe it was time to consider someone other than Joe Biden. And I think a lot of the blame sort of comes to be laid at the feet of the people at the White House who haven't let us see the president more readily, haven't let us see in press conferences and other events. To me, this is something that probably could have been avoided. And so now we talk about the possibility of whether or not it's draft some of the strongest democratic governors across the country, whether it's other elected officials that are proven and younger and smarter and potentially could take on Donald Trump with one hundred and thirty some days to go. Joe, it just to me seems like it is incredibly frustrating and upsetting that we're here, and I think a lot of the blame goes to the party itself.

There's a lot. I think Max is right. I think this is a lot more difficult than people understand, and it would create a tremendous amount of turmoil. But I also think too that it's really kind of the Democrat's fault in the first place that no one stood up and said that maybe it was time to consider someone other than Joe Biden. And I think a lot of the blame sort of comes to be laid at the feet of the people at the White House who haven't let us see the president more readily, haven't let us see in press conferences and other events. To me, this is something that probably could have been avoided. And so now we talk about the possibility of whether or not it's draft some of the strongest democratic governors across the country, whether it's other elected officials that are proven and younger and smarter and potentially could take on Donald Trump with one hundred and thirty some days to go. Joe, it just to me seems like it is incredibly frustrating and upsetting that we're here, and I think a lot of the blame goes to the party itself.

Well, I'll tell you what, CNN took no time and made no effort to fact check this debate in real time, and but that I really mean the former president.

Well, I'll tell you what, CNN took no time and made no effort to fact check this debate in real time, and but that I really mean the former president.

Of course, they showed up later and did all of that. If you decided to watch TV all night.

Of course, they showed up later and did all of that. If you decided to watch TV all night.

They found that the moderators Jake Tapper and Dana Bash allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post debate CNN analysis, Max, let's talk about Donald Trump for a moment. If Joe Biden allows him to become the next president. Here, what did we learn about Donald Trump last night? He was saying things, he was taking credit for things that Joe Biden done there, saying things that were patently false.

They found that the moderators Jake Tapper and Dana Bash allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post debate CNN analysis, Max, let's talk about Donald Trump for a moment. If Joe Biden allows him to become the next president. Here, what did we learn about Donald Trump last night? He was saying things, he was taking credit for things that Joe Biden done there, saying things that were patently false.

Yep.

Yep.

What can Democrats do to blunt that approach? Because it didn't work last night?

What can Democrats do to blunt that approach? Because it didn't work last night?

Well, I think we've learned that as the American electorate has changed a lot since twenty twenty, donald Trump really hasn't. This was essentially Trump playing his greatest hits of grievance, making up false claims about how Mexicans have stolen the moon. And what was so shocking to me was looking at people like Jake Tapper who offered no pushback. At one point, especially jarring was Joe Biden asking Donald Trump to condemn the proud boys for their violence. On January sixth, Trump ignored him, of course, But then Jake Tapper didn't feel that that very consequential question even merited a cursory follow up. So whatever CNN was trying to do at this debate, it was certainly not any kind of journalistically rigorous attempt to learn what these candidates actually believe.

Well, I think we've learned that as the American electorate has changed a lot since twenty twenty, donald Trump really hasn't. This was essentially Trump playing his greatest hits of grievance, making up false claims about how Mexicans have stolen the moon. And what was so shocking to me was looking at people like Jake Tapper who offered no pushback. At one point, especially jarring was Joe Biden asking Donald Trump to condemn the proud boys for their violence. On January sixth, Trump ignored him, of course, But then Jake Tapper didn't feel that that very consequential question even merited a cursory follow up. So whatever CNN was trying to do at this debate, it was certainly not any kind of journalistically rigorous attempt to learn what these candidates actually believe.

We can criticize the moderators all night here, but how about the candidate, the presumptive nominee for your party, Lisa, how dangerous do you see Donald Trump as being for the future of.

We can criticize the moderators all night here, but how about the candidate, the presumptive nominee for your party, Lisa, how dangerous do you see Donald Trump as being for the future of.

The GOP.

The GOP.

Ugh?

Ugh?

I mean, you know how I feel about this. It's tremendously dangerous. And it is the kind of thing that even my smartest Republican friends who don't necessarily agree with Donald Trump are saying they fundamentally cannot pull the lever or make the choice or Joe Biden that they are going to hold their nose. This is the phrasing that I'm hearing from a colleagues of mine and vote for Donald Trump because they fundamentally believe in the policies that he and the people he'll put in place will enact. And so that to me is concerning because They are willing to step aside from truth and from integrity and support a candidate that will will advance policies that they agree with in in deference to another candidate who they know is not qualified and is not ready to.

I mean, you know how I feel about this. It's tremendously dangerous. And it is the kind of thing that even my smartest Republican friends who don't necessarily agree with Donald Trump are saying they fundamentally cannot pull the lever or make the choice or Joe Biden that they are going to hold their nose. This is the phrasing that I'm hearing from a colleagues of mine and vote for Donald Trump because they fundamentally believe in the policies that he and the people he'll put in place will enact. And so that to me is concerning because They are willing to step aside from truth and from integrity and support a candidate that will will advance policies that they agree with in in deference to another candidate who they know is not qualified and is not ready to.

Serve for another four years.

Serve for another four years.

So to me, that is it's troublesome because Donald Trump absolutely and he I think Max is absolutely on point. What he said is totally true. Donald Trump is exactly the same as he has always been. The electorate has changed, but he is not he had. He consistently says things that are at false and people don't care. They're willing to support him in spite of it.

So to me, that is it's troublesome because Donald Trump absolutely and he I think Max is absolutely on point. What he said is totally true. Donald Trump is exactly the same as he has always been. The electorate has changed, but he is not he had. He consistently says things that are at false and people don't care. They're willing to support him in spite of it.

What a night.

What a night.

This is exactly the conversation I needed today now that we have any idea what's going to happen, But great to hear from both of you and get inside your heads for a moment. Lisa Kimussa Miller of course, Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host of The Friday Reporter podcast, and that's Max Burns. Don't be a stranger, Max, Democratic strategist, Third degree Strategies.

This is exactly the conversation I needed today now that we have any idea what's going to happen, But great to hear from both of you and get inside your heads for a moment. Lisa Kimussa Miller of course, Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host of The Friday Reporter podcast, and that's Max Burns. Don't be a stranger, Max, Democratic strategist, Third degree Strategies.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Kens just Live weekdays, at noon Eastern apocarplay and then Rodoo with the Bloomberg business ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Kens just Live weekdays, at noon Eastern apocarplay and then Rodoo with the Bloomberg business ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Friday edition of Balance of Power. You made it to the threshold of the weekend. And if you were up half the night like half the country watching the debate last night, rest is near. The Supreme Court makes news again today. We're going to have one more day after this. This is kind of a big deal here, all right. Monday is the last opinion day, and we can tell you that officially that came from the Chief Justice earlier today. That means the ruling on presidential immunity, which will give us a sense of whether there will be a January sixth trial for Donald Trump. That'll emerge on Monday morning.

Friday edition of Balance of Power. You made it to the threshold of the weekend. And if you were up half the night like half the country watching the debate last night, rest is near. The Supreme Court makes news again today. We're going to have one more day after this. This is kind of a big deal here, all right. Monday is the last opinion day, and we can tell you that officially that came from the Chief Justice earlier today. That means the ruling on presidential immunity, which will give us a sense of whether there will be a January sixth trial for Donald Trump. That'll emerge on Monday morning.

Just after ten am. What we did learn today.

Just after ten am. What we did learn today.

Is some of the charges, the obstruction, specifically the obstruction charges facing Donald Trump with regard to what happened on January along with several of the January sixth rioters, that the convicted rioters, the defendants, those obstruction charges will in many cases not be allowed.

Is some of the charges, the obstruction, specifically the obstruction charges facing Donald Trump with regard to what happened on January along with several of the January sixth rioters, that the convicted rioters, the defendants, those obstruction charges will in many cases not be allowed.

This will make it much more difficult for.

This will make it much more difficult for.

Jack Smith to charge Trump for prosecutors to charge rioters with this idea of obstructing and official proceeding. We've talked about this before. It goes back to two thousand and two, a law written in the age of Enron, when obstructing was shredding documents, hiding papers. In this case, obstructing an official preceding the certification of an election, Not so much.

Jack Smith to charge Trump for prosecutors to charge rioters with this idea of obstructing and official proceeding. We've talked about this before. It goes back to two thousand and two, a law written in the age of Enron, when obstructing was shredding documents, hiding papers. In this case, obstructing an official preceding the certification of an election, Not so much.

According to the Supreme Court six ' three ruling.

According to the Supreme Court six ' three ruling.

And it's where we start with Leah Littman, the professor of law at the University of Michigan Law School and co host of the Strict Scrutiny podcast. Leah, great to see you, thank you for being with us, and I wonder what you make of this ruling, particularly how the various justices sided on this. It did not fall along so called party lines or ideological lines. What do you make of the Court's ruling.

And it's where we start with Leah Littman, the professor of law at the University of Michigan Law School and co host of the Strict Scrutiny podcast. Leah, great to see you, thank you for being with us, and I wonder what you make of this ruling, particularly how the various justices sided on this. It did not fall along so called party lines or ideological lines. What do you make of the Court's ruling.

I think it was expected from the oral argument, and while the Court's decision didn't fall exactly along ideological lines, it was still six ' three mostly along ideological lines. So you had the Chief Justice in the majority writing for himself and four other Republican appointees together with Justice Jackson. And Justice Jackson actually wrote separately to further explain her vote, and then the dissent was written by Justice Barrett and she was joined by the two other Democratic appointees on the Court Justices. So to Mayor and Kagan, and I think what's interesting about the opinion is really two things. One relates to Donald Trump's case and the other just relates to what it says about the Supreme Court. And if you read the opinion in Fisher, I think part of what is notable about it is the Court is not just focusing on the text of the statute. Because the text of the statute under which many January sixth defendants were convicted as otherwise obstructing and official proceeding, it doesn't say anything about documents, records, or evidence. And instead, what the Chief Justices majority said is, well, look the other sections in the statute. Those talk about documents and evidence. And we know that Congress was thinking about Enron when it enacted this law. So therefore we're going to read in this kind of additional requirement, the prosecutors have to show that whatever the defendant did to obstruct the proceeding involves some obstruction of records, documents, and evidence, so it's kind of interesting and that it's not very textualist, even though we think about the Republican appointees as textualists.

I think it was expected from the oral argument, and while the Court's decision didn't fall exactly along ideological lines, it was still six ' three mostly along ideological lines. So you had the Chief Justice in the majority writing for himself and four other Republican appointees together with Justice Jackson. And Justice Jackson actually wrote separately to further explain her vote, and then the dissent was written by Justice Barrett and she was joined by the two other Democratic appointees on the Court Justices. So to Mayor and Kagan, and I think what's interesting about the opinion is really two things. One relates to Donald Trump's case and the other just relates to what it says about the Supreme Court. And if you read the opinion in Fisher, I think part of what is notable about it is the Court is not just focusing on the text of the statute. Because the text of the statute under which many January sixth defendants were convicted as otherwise obstructing and official proceeding, it doesn't say anything about documents, records, or evidence. And instead, what the Chief Justices majority said is, well, look the other sections in the statute. Those talk about documents and evidence. And we know that Congress was thinking about Enron when it enacted this law. So therefore we're going to read in this kind of additional requirement, the prosecutors have to show that whatever the defendant did to obstruct the proceeding involves some obstruction of records, documents, and evidence, so it's kind of interesting and that it's not very textualist, even though we think about the Republican appointees as textualists.

And then the second Justice Barrett talks about textual backflips that were done in this opinion.

And then the second Justice Barrett talks about textual backflips that were done in this opinion.

Do you disagree?

Do you disagree?

No, I think she's right, and that's why I think it's interesting that Justice Jackson wrote separately, because her separate writing basically says, look, you can't resolve this case in the way the majority did just based on the text. But I am voting way because I consider Congress's purpose in enacting the statute, and Congress's purpose was about the destruction of evidence and records. So I think both Justice Jackson and Justice Barrett are correct that the majority had to kind of do textual backflips and couldn't just rely on the text of the law in order to get them, where as Justice Barrett said, they wanted to go because they just couldn't believe Congress meant what it said.

No, I think she's right, and that's why I think it's interesting that Justice Jackson wrote separately, because her separate writing basically says, look, you can't resolve this case in the way the majority did just based on the text. But I am voting way because I consider Congress's purpose in enacting the statute, and Congress's purpose was about the destruction of evidence and records. So I think both Justice Jackson and Justice Barrett are correct that the majority had to kind of do textual backflips and couldn't just rely on the text of the law in order to get them, where as Justice Barrett said, they wanted to go because they just couldn't believe Congress meant what it said.

Fascinating.

Fascinating.

As we spend time with the Olipman, Professor of Law at the University of Michigan Law School, we've got a big one coming. The granddaddy of at least this session comes on Monday, Leah presidential immunity. This could go a couple of different ways. Can I ask you before you weigh in on what might happen? Why the heck it has taken so long? Why does this have to go to the last day?

As we spend time with the Olipman, Professor of Law at the University of Michigan Law School, we've got a big one coming. The granddaddy of at least this session comes on Monday, Leah presidential immunity. This could go a couple of different ways. Can I ask you before you weigh in on what might happen? Why the heck it has taken so long? Why does this have to go to the last day?

I mean, I think it's very puzzling, and it's in a lot of ways concerning because the Supreme Court's delay in the Trump Community case is further jeopardizing the prospect of a pre election trial and pre election verdict on the very serious election interference charges. You know, when you have a former president running for re election and that former president is alleged to have interfered with the peaceful transition of power, I think it's a pretty important to send that case to a jury before the election. And yet the Supreme Court's dilatory actions in this case have really minimized the prospect of a pre election verdict, you know. Special Council Jack Smith originally asked the Court to take the case in December. The Court declined to do so and waited until February. Then it scheduled the oral argument for two months away. Now it's taken them, you know, two months and more to reach a decision, even though it has acted much more quickly in many other cases, including the disqualification case out of Colorado about whether Donald Trump could even appear on the ballot. So I think it's very concerning. Again, another reason why it's concerning is because of the arguments Donald Trump was making. You know, those arguments were so broad and outlandish that presidents could never be said to criminal laws. You would think it wouldn't take that much time to kind of say, whatever the scope of presidential immunity, this isn't it.

I mean, I think it's very puzzling, and it's in a lot of ways concerning because the Supreme Court's delay in the Trump Community case is further jeopardizing the prospect of a pre election trial and pre election verdict on the very serious election interference charges. You know, when you have a former president running for re election and that former president is alleged to have interfered with the peaceful transition of power, I think it's a pretty important to send that case to a jury before the election. And yet the Supreme Court's dilatory actions in this case have really minimized the prospect of a pre election verdict, you know. Special Council Jack Smith originally asked the Court to take the case in December. The Court declined to do so and waited until February. Then it scheduled the oral argument for two months away. Now it's taken them, you know, two months and more to reach a decision, even though it has acted much more quickly in many other cases, including the disqualification case out of Colorado about whether Donald Trump could even appear on the ballot. So I think it's very concerning. Again, another reason why it's concerning is because of the arguments Donald Trump was making. You know, those arguments were so broad and outlandish that presidents could never be said to criminal laws. You would think it wouldn't take that much time to kind of say, whatever the scope of presidential immunity, this isn't it.

Well, Okay, So if the delay is maybe political, will the ruling be.

Well, Okay, So if the delay is maybe political, will the ruling be.

I mean, we have to wait to see. I think in many respects, the Supreme Court has already done what Donald Trump most wanted, and that was to delay the trial in his case and to prolong the proceedings. Because when Donald Trump originally asked the Court to hear this case, he asked them to schedule it for next term. Now the Supreme Court didn't do that, but instead by dragging it out until the end of this term and extending this term into July, which itself is quite rare, they've given him a lot of the delay that they've asked for. So even if they don't completely embrace his arguments, he already has a significant win.

I mean, we have to wait to see. I think in many respects, the Supreme Court has already done what Donald Trump most wanted, and that was to delay the trial in his case and to prolong the proceedings. Because when Donald Trump originally asked the Court to hear this case, he asked them to schedule it for next term. Now the Supreme Court didn't do that, but instead by dragging it out until the end of this term and extending this term into July, which itself is quite rare, they've given him a lot of the delay that they've asked for. So even if they don't completely embrace his arguments, he already has a significant win.

That's really something. This is going to happen at ten o'clock in the morning on my to what extent could it impact the outcome of the January sixth trial? If only in timing here will there be time if this unlocks a trial for Jack Smith to get this started or complete it even before the election.

That's really something. This is going to happen at ten o'clock in the morning on my to what extent could it impact the outcome of the January sixth trial? If only in timing here will there be time if this unlocks a trial for Jack Smith to get this started or complete it even before the election.

I think that will partially depend on the ruling that they issue. If their ruling is just to straight up we affirm the d C Circuits opinion, there's some possibility of a pre election trial, although you know, Judge Chuckkin, the trial judge in the case, had said there would have to be eighty some days of pre trial proceedings, and so that already pushes trial until pretty late in the fall. If instead the Supreme Court says, well, we're not completely agreeing with the d C Circuits opinion, we're vacating and remanding it, which means they're basically sending it back down to the lower courts to make some additional findings and perform some additional legal test. That's going to for delay the trial, and I think that makes the prospect of a pre election trial pretty unlikely.

I think that will partially depend on the ruling that they issue. If their ruling is just to straight up we affirm the d C Circuits opinion, there's some possibility of a pre election trial, although you know, Judge Chuckkin, the trial judge in the case, had said there would have to be eighty some days of pre trial proceedings, and so that already pushes trial until pretty late in the fall. If instead the Supreme Court says, well, we're not completely agreeing with the d C Circuits opinion, we're vacating and remanding it, which means they're basically sending it back down to the lower courts to make some additional findings and perform some additional legal test. That's going to for delay the trial, and I think that makes the prospect of a pre election trial pretty unlikely.

How about that?

How about that?

Fascinating A great conversation, Lee, I'm so glad you could talk to us just a couple of hours after the rulings and ahead of what we're going to learn on Monday. Leah Littman, University of Michigan Law School, Thank you so much for the time here on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.