Matt Swaim talks with Fr. John Gavin, author of Growing Into God: The Fathers of the Church on Christian Maturity, about the surprising role of “foolishness” in Christian maturity. They explore St. Paul’s teaching that the Cross appears foolish to the world, how Jesus overturned conventional ideas of wisdom, and why faithfully living the Gospel can sometimes make Christians look foolish. They also discuss how priesthood, marriage, family life, and radical commitment to Christ can appear unreasonable to a culture that measures wisdom by comfort, success, and self-interest.