It's the Son of a Butch podcast comes at you every Wednesday. This week's guest, one of the voices of the PGA Tour one of my favorite people in the game, Steve Sands. I've had the pleasure to meet Steve and get to know him both on the course and off the course, and I just think he does a fantastic job for Golf Channel in NBC, and he spends so much time with the players learning about what they're doing. He's always, you know, messaging me and other coaches and about what he's you know, going to talk about and getting all the information. And I think, you know, that's why he is so popular. I mean, that is why everybody on tour loves the guy, because he does his homework. He wants to make sure the information he's getting right is right. And I can't tell you how happy I am that he decided to come on the pod. We've been trying to get it done for a while and when when I started this a couple of years ago, the idea was to sit down write a list of people that I wanted to have on, and he was definitely at the top of that list. So I'm excited and sit back and enjoy the interview with Steve sand So. My guest is one of the voices of the PGA Tour, Steve sand Sandy, we were talking before we came on in this crazy twenty twenty three PGA Tour Live Battle World. I haven't seen you since walking down the fairway at the Open Championship. And I don't think people realize how I mean, you guys in the TV world are as much a part of the fabric of the PGA Tour as as everyone else. And you know the fact that I've been spending most of my time because all my guys are on live, I just haven't seen you. So it's good to see him. Man, it's great to see you. Glad. I'm glad you're doing well. I mean, we've been friends twenty twenty five years and we usually dine or raise a glass, you know, multiple times a year and just see you in the fairway. What's that seven eight months ago? It's crazy something retext and everything. It's funny you brought that up. You brought that up. I was at the Bears Club a couple of months ago when Camillo and Maria had their first charity event for Mia everybody understands, you know, who passed away at such a young age, of such a tragic thing. They had a big MIA's Miracles event and they asked me to come down. Claude Camillo called and said, hey, would you come down at m see it. As of course, I'm happy to drive down a couple of hours from from where we live. And who's the first person I run into was Dustin Johnson. And they're all I mean, Rory's there, Ricky's there, Dustin's there, They're all of the One of the great things about this sport, as you know, Claude, is they support their own and they support whatever charities it is, whatever cause it is. And in this case, everybody knew what happened with Camillo and his wife Maria, and it was just an awful thing. So anyway, I run into Dustin. Johnson's the first guy I see. Now, like you, I was in Dustin and months. You know, I love Dustin. So anyway, I walk up to him and say hello, give each other. You know, a huh he llah blah blah, has a gone family, all that kind of garbage. And I look at him, so I gotta tell you, man, of all the things that have happened in the last year. You know what I missed most. He's like, what's that I said, saying the phrase Johnson for Birdie at twelve. Just it just he's missed Claude, He's missed on the PGA. I'll know if everybody is missed, but he is missed on and off the golf course. You know. I say this to a lot of the people that I have on the show. Um, you know that are in the golf space, you know, like you guys who are in the players and stuff. I mean, even when we saw each other at the Open Championship at Saint Andrew's, if you could look forward and I would have told you have gone to the future and this is where we are in mid season started the floor to swing. I mean, it's just the landscape of professional golf really has has changed. But having said that, I don't think Jaynahan and the boys at Pontavidra could have dreamed up a better start to this new season. I mean, you were a big part of the West Coast swing. I mean there has been some unbelievable golf being played and you being so much a part of the broadcasts. How crazy and how special is what John Ram is currently doing. I mean, you've seen, you know, a lot of golf over your time. I mean, you saw all the Tiger stuff, You've seen all the great players. But this kid is just I mean, he is playing some unbelievable golf. Santy. Yeah, he is off the charts. Watching him, watching him go about his business, how he takes care of his craft, and then how he implements the game plan that he has said forth and executes it so well. It's just remarkable. I was talking to somebody the other day Claude about John and everybody knew he had the promise. Everybody knows he has the game, but to put it all together is a totally different thing. And I think there's a couple of things in sports. You never want to rub the anointing oil all over somebody. I can't stand that. Now he's an incredibly great player and he's established, and now he's hot. There's a huge difference in sports, Claude, from being great and being hot. He's hot, but he's also great. You win three times in a span of a month or in change on the PGA Tour, playing different venues, different fields, going up and trying to do it from the jump, when you're the favorite, or when you're trying to recapture being number one. I think what John has done. I'm not going to compare him to Tiger and all those kinds of things, but when you look at someone who wins two consecutive starts on tour, that's pretty strong, and then he backs it up with another wins, that's an otherworldly type of situation. Claude, I think he is. I've changed my mind back and forth on who's the best player in the world when they are playing their best. When Dustin Johnson was playing his best, I didn't think anybody could beat him. When John rom is playing his best, When Rory mcaroy is playing his best, I don't think they can be beaten. Justin Thomas can be in that category as well, and maybe a couple of other guys. But John Rom's the best player in the world right now, and I don't think it's even a debate. And that's saying something because Scheffler's already won and mcaroy has been playing some great golf. But I think Rom right now is the best player in the world. What do you think, will you watch him you get to be around him and interview him. What do you think he's the intangible that he has apart from the goal. I mean, he's when I watch him play golf, and I'm sure you feel the same way. I don't know how he doesn't win every week because it just doesn't look like he can hit it offline the way that his golf swing is how accurate. I don't think he gets nearly the credit for having the full package, right. We all know he can hit the golf ball miles. He's a big kid, but he is the total total package from a golfer. But what do you see, as you know that thing that all of the great ones have, not only in golf, but that extra thing that every great champion, regardless of what the sport is. What do you think that is that he has. I think it's his energy, claude. He has the game obviously. We know that. We know he can drive the golf ball. We know he can make big putts. We know he can chip and pitch. We know his irons are great, we know his bunker plays great. I think his attitude when he first came out on the PGA Tour, his attitude coming out of Arizona State maybe hurt him a little bit professionally, and he had to get used to being out there in front of all the TV cameras, being out there in front of all the people, all the ropes, all the craziness that goes on with being a professional golfer. And here's a young kid, Claude. These kids grow up in front of our eyes. He's now married to Kelly, two kids. His life off the golf course is incredibly settled, very comfortable. Allows him to just go play golf and do his thing. And I think that energy that perhaps harnessed him a little bit in the early stages of his career, and he's become a better player, obviously as he's gotten more maturity, he's gotten older. But I also think that energy that used to be a harness on him is now allowing him to freewheel it out there. I think he has taken some of that energy that perhaps was either pent up or maybe a little bit on the angry side. And I mean that in a good way, in an athletic way. You need to have some of you know, to be great. There is no such thing as being great and being the nicest man on the planet all day, every day. That's not how it works. So it's a singular pursuit, Claude, it's a bit of a selfish pursuit. And you've got to be able to take that energy that perhaps is holding you back and harness it in a way that's in a positive light as opposed to a negative. And I think that between his wife, between Adam Hayes being his caddy and being a regular presence in his life, having two children, to allow some perspective and some context to him at an early age. Claude, it's not like his life is drastically changed over, you know, of course, of fifteen years of being single for ten or twelve years, he's young in having this family. Yeah, I think look out for him. I think that the world in this sport is his oyster. And I think that that energy that used to hold him back, I think he has managed to transform it into a positive thing. And now his game is matched up with it. And you're looking at the best player on the planet. You said, you know, obviously it's easy to try, and when anybody gets on a run wins a bunch of tournaments. Everybody comparison to Tiger and I don't think we're there yet. But one of the things I think he has is if he's on the leaderboard, you don't expect him to back up. And if you've got a lead or the one thing I think he has the ability to do that is very Tiger esque is you give him, you know, a one, two, three shot lead, he can go out and shoot. He's got the game to where he doesn't have to take a lot of chances. He can do what guys like Tiger used to do back in the day, to where I remember Tiger telling Adam Scott early on in his career in two thousand and one, We're at the PGA at Atlanta with David Thomas. One. You know, Adam's just kind of getting going, hadn't really won a bunch of tournaments, and Tiger said, listen, you're trying to win tournaments by shooting zero on Sunday. He said, I promise you, the ones that are most fun for me is when I've got to one or two shot lead, I shoot one under and I let everybody else screw it up. Jack Nicholas did that, and I think John has that type of presence in that type of game to where he doesn't have to overpower you. On Sunday, he can just kind of do what he does. He's going to have his chances on the par fives and then you know that he's knock going to back up. Yeah, John's one of those guys. I think it's rare, even for the greats of the greats Claude. I think he can sixty eight sixty nine you to death. He will just bludgeon you with a butter knife because you look up and you're like, oh my gosh, here's John Romigan. Oh my gosh, here's John Romigan. He does it in the California Desert, he does it at Riviera, he does it on MAUI. I mean it's like all these different places and these different grasses, these different conditions. The thing about John that I find, Look, I think he's terrific to deal with. He's a bit of a hard ass, and that's okay. I mean, that's that's part of being great. I love being around him. He's very insightful. He's a very bright kid. And I also think he has a high golf acumen, and I think that combination bodes well. And I think you made a really interesting point there at the beginning of the question, Claude, he has become and it has happened kind of quickly. He has become one of those guys. And it's rarefied air in this particular sport when your name's on the leaderboard and everyone knows it, everyone everyone expects John rom to play well. Maybe he doesn't play well, hey listen, that sports. That happens. But when he does play well and he puts himself in position, he doesn't give that up very often. His record when he is playing well and is on a leaderboard is stout and I think he is absolutely with Rory, with Justin Thomas, with the great players of today. When Ram's name is on the first page of a leaderboard late Saturday, early Sunday, I think everybody in the sport recognizes it and knows what's about to happen. So how does his game do you think for this year? I mean, obviously I gusta. I mean, I mean he can hit the golf ball as high as anybody. He can hit the golf ball as far as Anybody's a great putter. But the rest of the majors, the venues, how do you think those are going to set up for him, And what do you think I mean, they haven't had a US Open at LACC Los Angeles Country Club. We go back to Oak Hill. Where are we going for the Open this year? We're going to right Liverpool, So those golf courses, I mean, we've got some data points for the opening the PGA that we don't have for the US Open. But he's won a US Open, so he knows what that test is going to be, that kind of cauldron. But the other two, how do you think his game sets up for those? Well? I also think it's interesting that he won at Riviera, so he knows what it's like to win in the City of Angels and he's going to go down the street to LACC. Let's start with Augusta first, Savy Biastaris, Jose Mariela Thable, Sergio Garcia, John Ram is going to win a Master's and you might as well give it a shot this April because right now he's playing so great. Now that's six seven weeks from now, so let's wait and see if his game is prepared and is sharp like it is right now. He hits that high fade off the tea that is a magical magical recipe for Augusta National. I know that a lot shots are right to left there. I think Jack Nicholas was a high fader of the golf ball. Did believe he won six. I think Tiger knows how to, you know, kind of butter cut it out there when he needs to. He won five of them. I think John will be okay in that regard. He's played it a few times, He's comfortable there. If this continues over the course of the next six seven weeks, so I think Augustus suits up, sits very well for him and should suit nicely to his game. O kill big boy golf course, big boy golf course. The Harmon family knows that golf course very very well. There is absolutely no reason that you could win a US Open at Torry Ponds and not win a PGA. It'll kill. There's no reason. I'm not saying there's similar golf courses. No offense to Rochester, but we're not looking over the cliffs to the Pacific Ocean. It's not as pretty, but it's a big boy golf course that's gonna be really tough. And the PGA tends to just loosen the screws a little bit compared to the USGA. I think his game should serve very well at Okill lacc's up for grabs. I think a lot of guys are gonna go there in practice over the course of the next four months. Before going there. The guys aren't familiar with it as they would be for the other golf courses that they're playing on the major championship rotation this year. But LACC, for a guy like John, I don't think there's any golf course that John can't win on. Certainly he's more favorable on certain types of grasses and conditions, but LACC will not be an issue. If it's his week, it's his weekend. Like you said, he already knows what the cauldron is like to win a US Open Liverpool. I say this. We talked about this every year, the Open Championship. It's predicated on the weather, your tea time, the conditions that week, and again, how's your game traveling in July, busy time of the year, the you know, the FedEx Cup coming up in August. You've already played three major championships and the players he's already won three times in January and February. Who knows what's going to happen over the course of the next four months. But Liverpool famously is where Tiger won without ever hitting a driver, and McElroy won an Open when kind of like Mickelson, nobody thought that mc roy would win him open before he won the other three major championships. So to me, if you're the best player in the world and you're John Ram and you know your game travels all over the place, there's absolutely no reason that he doesn't contend at any of the four major championships this year. The way he's putting, the way he's performing. Have you been surprised, I mean, you mentioned that you enjoy talking to him, that he's a thinker, that you know, there's a lot more to him than you know, just you know, a guy that that plays golf. Have you been surprised that he, more than anybody on the PGA Tour side of this PGA Tour lived debate, he's almost been a little bit of a voice of reason to where he's I wouldn't say he's riding the fence because he has said listen, you know he's made critical comments of live. He's made I wouldn't say he's made positive comments, but he hasn't made a ton of negative and and and I think he's one of the few guys right now that is, you know, somewhat a voice in my opinion of reason, where right now it is just I mean, these two things are as far apart as you can get right now, I think with John and I have not spoken to him this in depth with him off camera, but I have spoken him a little bit and gotten where his mind is on this. I think a lot of it goes back to the Ryder Cup. Now, remember he's Spanish. Now, he lives in America. He's raising his family in America. He married an American, he went to college in America. He's not going anywhere. He's going to live in Scottsdale the rest of his life. He's going to travel the world and go home to Spain and see his family. But he is, you know, an American for all you know, attents and purposes as far as that goes. But he's from Spain. And the Ryder Cup is a very big deal. If you go back in time, Claude, this isn't a history lesson for your audience, but if you go back in time, there are three people who saved the Ryder Cup Jack Nicholas when he made the suggestion to bring in other than just Great Britain and Ireland and bringing continental Europe. Hence Schofield, who was in charge of the European Tour which is now the DP World Tour, listening to Jack and then implementing that. And Savy Biasteros. Savy Biasteros is the Ryder Cup god of all gods in Europe. So he played, he captained with a lot of passion, and then Jose Mario o'thabel played and captain with a lot of passion. Sergio Garcia played with a ton of passion. He should be a Ryder Cup captain. We'll have to wait and see how that all plays out with the PGA Tour, with the DP World Tour and with live But Sergio Garcia is an all time great player and an all time great Ryder Cup participant, and everybody knows that he should be a captain. It just depends on what the politics will allow. So in John Ram's realm, think about it, it's not even thirty years of age, Claude, so yeah, you know, eight nine ten Ryder Cups to go in his career and if the DP World Tour doesn't allow non PGA Tour, non DP World Tour players to play in it. You're talking about McElroy and Ram carrying the you know, the European flag, and that's it. You know, there's not a lot after that. So I think that this is basically Ryder Cup based. And also John enjoys. This is why I love him. He enjoys playing against the best. He wants to play against the best. He wants to test himself against the best. He wants to succeed against the best. And right now, with the game being splintered, you know, it's not as good field wise as it was two years ago or one year ago, and I think that bothers John. So I think it's a combination of let's get them all together however we do it. And also it's a Ryder Cup issue as well. With John being from Spain. It's not an issue for the Americans nearly as much as it is for the international team in the President's Cup and the European team in the Ryder Cup. Let's take a moment to thank for Wellness for supporting the show. You guys hear me talk about them every week and The reason I do that is because I drink their coffee every week. I know lots of people are focusing on health and wellness as we start the new year. But what I love most about their coffee is that there isn't anything artificial and no artificial ingredients sweeteners, creamers and all the junk that isn't good for you. It's only the good stuff giving you more energy without typical crashes. You get a lot of your coffee, and if you have a lot of sugar in your coffee, give it a try and use the special CODEH three. That code will get you twenty percent off your order, plus free shipping and a free starter kit worth thirty dollars when you visit for Wellness dot Com slash Podcast. Again, that's the code H three at Forewellness dot Com slash Podcast. One of the other winners, Max Homa, this kid man you talked about. He's on a heater and he's another one that his game has really really I think changed. I think the work he's done with his swing instructor Maxima, I mean Mark Blackburn, I think they're doing some really really cool work. And he is such a fan favorite. You get to spend a lot of time around him. I mean, he is one of the good guys on the PGA Tour for sure. Love Max that you can't name five guys in golf who play currently who you'd rather go to dinner with, rather have a beer with, rather watch a ballgame with, talk politics with, talk gambling with, talk anything with. You know, he's just a He's a really good dude, a bright guy, a thoughtful guy. Man. Is he playing some golf club? Wow? I mean, not only is he a terrific guy to be around, but he's also matured to the point on the golf course where he understands his place in the game. It's not just a social media presence. It's not just a Twitter guy. He's actually a really thoughtful, nice young man. Yeah. You know, it sounds ridiculous to say that, but you and I are of the age were allowed to say, Hey, look he's a nice kid. He's a nice young man, and my guy, can he play? And going back to what we talked about with Ram, great player who's also hot, Yes, I agree with you, he's on a heater. I think Max is on his way to greatness. I think he is one of these guys who he's gotten in his own way a little bit as well above the shoulders, and now he's really starting to find himself not only succeeding on the PGA Tour, but also knowing how to go about his business day and day out, week in week out, going against the best players in the world. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Max not only one another event in twenty twenty three, but also put himself a contention and gives himself a chance to win a major championship in twenty twenty three. Not only is he a great guy, I think he's a great player who happens to be on a heater. He doesn't have the resume John Ram has just yet. He doesn't have the longevity that John Ram has just yet. But I think Max Homa is a guy who can win anywhere Claude, and I think he's going to prove that in the next few years. Knowing him the way you know him, do you think going into the four Majors this year? I think sometimes Max can put a lot of pressure on himself. The pressure comes from within, and I remember going through that with Brooks Keepka and you know in twoy nineteen when Tiger won. You know Brooks's I mean you talk about a heater. I mean he'd won four out of the last eight majors he played in and all of a sudden he showed up in nineteen. Is a big difference between thinking you can win a major, wanting to win a major, but then when you're the guy that you guys on Golf Channel or beating the drum saying, hey, it's his time, he's got the game, he's got a step up. How do you think players manage those expectations from wanting to win majors and thinking personally that they can win them, but then externally when that pressure comes, it's even more I think Max is one of those guys claude as you alluded to. He can get in his own way because he's a bright, thoughtful man, and I think that there's a lot to be said for having some clarity in professional sports, especially in this sport. I will never forget. You could not have been nicer, more kind to come on the set with us the morning of when Dustin was trying to win the Masters, a live from when we were together to Gusta. You were very kind to do that, and I remember us talking about being ready. Are you ready? Are you ready to do it? And you said Dustin was ready. He had won the US Open that had been you know, years previous, had chances, but hadn't gotten it done since then. And I remember asking you about it and you said, you know, sometimes an athlete just needs to have the understanding that his game is sharp, now just go do it. And I think Max is one of those guys who almost needed it. And I'm out of sports psychologist, I'm not trying to get into his head, but I almost feel like Max is the kind of guy who needed to prove it to himself before proving it to any of us or anybody else in the world. And now that he has, I think, like rom he carries confidence into a week like this week at bay Hill or next week at the Players. I think he carries confidence into these big events more so than he ever has for because he's proven it to himself that he can do it. He took John Ram to the mat at Riviera a couple of weeks ago, didn't win, was emotional about it, and you know what, I think he was emotional about it, Claude, because I think he just realized, you know what, John Robb's the best player in the world, and I came up just short, you know, a little break here and there, and I would have won that week at Riviera. And I think Max has the game, has the attitude, and also has the confidence to put it all together. Right now, we saw Tiger come back at Riviera. What do you think, you know, I it's great to see him back. I mean, it's just it's awesome to see, you know, players you know who are past their prime, who have given us so much joy on the golf course, you know, as a sports fan, to come back and play. I think there are a lot of times where I think boy is good. Is good enough. Claude, you know, you know more about golf than I do. You've forgotten more about golf than I have than I'll ever know. But his good is absolutely good enough. I remember talking to some players out there who were around him and played with them, and they said the same thing. You gotta play seventy two holes, though, Claude, you gotta be able to walk seventy two holes sometimes. That also means on Wednesday there's a ProAm. Now there's no pro ams at majors, so he can do what ever he wants leading up to a major, and he make it seventy two holes. I think his swing can His putting wasn't great a river here, but who the hell? Who who puts well? Ribby puts well out there? It's just so hard to put on those greens. I absolutely think his good is good enough to compete. The question is will his body, especially the lower half, especially the leg. Will his body? I know his back isn't a one hundred percent, let alone his leg. Will his body hold up a seventy two holes? It's hard to see that right now. I will never ever count him out of anything after seeing what he has done in his career, and I wish him all the best, and it's great to have him back, but it was it was great to see him play well, and it was sad to see him not play well, and I think that's kind of where we are. Can he find, you know, lightning in a bottle? Can he find that, Genie it's Tiger woods Man. You're never gonna hear him say no. I think it's it'd be an arduous task right now to see him beat these guys the way they're playing, as young and hungry as they are as healthy as they are, and Tiger's not one hundred percent. He's never going to be one hundred percent. And I also think Claude and you could speak to this, I'd like to see I'd like to see him play at the Players. I think he needs to play one more time before Augusta, because you know, you hear these guys talk over the years about, you know, being in rhythm and not having rust. It's hard to not have rust if you only play at the Genesis and the last time you played real, meaningful golf was the Open Championship before that on Thursday and Friday. So I hope he plays the Players if he's healthy enough. I hope he continues to get healthier. I can't see him beating the best players in the world the way it stands right now, Claude, but man, don't ever put anything past that guy. It was it was awesome to watch him play the take the live thing out of the equation. If we can do that, does the game? Does the game still need Tiger to be who he is because like sometimes feel like we rely so much on him, We want so much from him, and obviously he's not the player that he used to be. I mean, I agree, I think on the right golf course, on the right situation, I think he could win again. I was listening to Hank Cani's podcast the other day. Hank, I mean, Hank can sometimes to be a little critical of teed up, but he was like, yeah, I think on the right golf course he can win again. He thinks, you know, out of all the places he thinks he could win again, it would be the Open Championship. I think the best golf course for Tiger to win again is Augusta. But I just don't know if his body will allow that. But does in twenty twenty three, do we still need him? It almost feels like the sport can't move forward because we keep looking backwards of what Tiger once was. Claude, there's a cruelty to this sport that not only applies to the players. It applies to the fans. And we're fans now you teach a broadcast, but we're fans of the sport. In every other sport, they show you the door. There's a general manager, or a coach, an owner of a team. They show you the door. In tennis, at some point, your body just gives out a little bit. I mean, Roger came close to winning Wimbledon a few years ago in that incredible match with Nadal, couldn't finish never one again. You could clearly tell that he was never going to get past the quarters of the semis again, because these guys are just too good, not just Nadal and Djokovic, but the other young players. Golf's the same way. They don't show you the door in golf. So the cruelty of it is that you get to play forever. You don't think Aikman would have loved to have suited it up one more time. Jimmy Johnson and Joe Brand and Jerry Jones said that's it. You're done, you can't play anymore. You know what do you think? You know? It's that's the way it works in those sports and golf. It's not like that. I was thinking about this the other day, and I'm not picking on them. They're all time greats. But the last time you saw Ernie Else and VJ Sing on television, they still play like golf play forever Champs Tour. So occasionally they'll come out on the PGA Tour and you're like, wow, it's so great to see him. I love it. They're all time greats. So Tiger is going to pick and choose when he plays. He played the Genesis. I'm glad he did. It's his own event for this foundation. I think he's going to play the players as long as he's healthy enough, and we're going to see him at Agusta, no question, unless there's a health issue. And the cruelty of that claude is that it allows you the opportunity to perhaps get it done. But the cruelty of that is also that the chances are so slim, and also the chances are likely that they're not gonna look the same way, not just walking and limping and not being one hundred percent body wise. But your game isn't as great as it was, and it's a it's a weird deal in this sport compared to the others. Do I think the sport needs him? No. I think it's a shot in the arm for fans and TV and podcasts and radio and the tour and the majors to have him out there. There's no debate about that. But I don't think the sport needs him anymore. Think about it. With there are very few people who are in that stratosphere. Wayne Gretzky retired, the NHL is doing just fine. Michael Jordan. Everybody thought the NBA's gonna tank after Michael Jordan. Well, Kobe comes around, Lebron comes around, Greatness comes around, and that the attention moves forward, and then you get to see Michael. Every once in a while you're like, hey, I look at that. There's Michael Jordan and Tiger still playing. Every once in a while, sure, it kind of dangles in front of the fans and says, oh, here we are. Oh this is so great. But the sport is just fine without him. Look Bay Hill, this week, forty four of the top fifty in the world, they're here. Tiger won this event one hundred times. He made this place rock and roll. But it's going to rock and roll this week with those great players because of the work he put in and how great it was. And all the fans in Central Florida or whoever else come here this week. They came here at one point and saw what Tiger did, and they fell in love with either of the game or the way he played, or a combination of the two. And also the atmosphere that's around professional golf. So does the sport need him? No? Does the sport want him? Absolutely No, one's going to turn him down. But you know, I think the sport has moved past the fact that it's either Tigers in the field or he's not. I don't think the sport is the same way that it was a you know, eight, nine, ten years ago, when that truly was something. You and I been a million of these events. When Tiger was in the field, there was a different field and that's the way it is now, Claude. But it's it's not as often as it was, So I think it's okay for the sport. Do you think the fans need to come to terms with you know, the twenty nineteen Masters was the eighty six Masters for Jack Nicholas. That was it was to come back. It was the you know what everybody never thought they'd see. I mean we were there. I mean I never thought I'd see Tiger win again. I never thought i'd see him sure as hell, never thought i'd see him win a major again. But I mean, is that do you think that will be what is the defining moment for him at the end? Yes? I do. I think that the chances are are better that he never wins another major again than the fact that I think he could win one. Heck, he could win one at Royal Liverpool, he could win at Augusta. I'm just not sure his body's going to allow. But by no means am I saying that he can't. I definitely think he could possibly win it. By the way, you and I watched a lot of that together in twenty nineteen, I'll never forget that memory as well. And you know, was that his Jack moment? Sure seems like it. Can you believe that was four years ago? I you know, just think of what's transpired in everyone's life, but let alone his in four years I think that, Yes, it certainly seems like that's his Jack Nicholas moment forty six and eighty six Tiger in twenty nineteen, coming out of nowhere to do it, just hanging around, hanging around, let everybody else gotta just fold around him, and the seas parted for him and he went right through it. It was the same it was. People don't realize the same thing happened when Nicholas won. I mean, Sevy had a chance down the stretch, Jay Hoss had a chance down the strat. Obviously everybody remembers Norman, but Tom Kite had a chance. I mean, there were so many and they all folded the exact same way they did for Jack. And I think that to me, that is and my Dad's always said this as well, Sandy, that the closest comparison that Tiger and Jack chair is that everybody tend to throw up all over themselves trying to beat him, and he just kind of just hung around and just shot one under on Sunday and just kind of went It's a lot like what you said about John rom When his name's on the leaderboard, everybody knows it. Now now he's not nearly at the level of Tiger and Jack or everybody quakes in their boats and that's the end of it. But Tiger certainly earned that, and before that, Jack certainly earned that. And you know what's interesting about that is the young guys today, and you know this club, the young guys today, forget if it's liver or PGA Tour. The last five six years, they've all want become friendly with Tiger because Tiger has allowed them into his life. When he was destroying Phil and Ernie and David and VJ and Retief and those guys you know, get out of here. You don't even know. I'll tell you two quick stories about that. Tony Finel was playing in the final round with Tiger and Francesco Molinari in twenty nineteen. Remember it was threesomes off because of the early tea time because the bad weather was supposed to come in, which by the way, never came in, but they had to push up thet times because of the weather forecast. I said to Tony a few weeks later, what was that experience like, final round at Augusta with Tiger? And Tony laughed. He goes, Tony, by the way, if you've seen full swing yet? Yeah, yeah, it's great. I mean, Tony's the nicest guy in the planet and we already knew that anyway, but now the world gets to know that, which I think is great. So I said Tony, what was that experience like? And he said, after we hit our t shots on one, I'm walking down the hill before going back up. And I looked at Type's final round of Augusta on Sunday, going down the hill before going back up the hill at number one to hit their second shots in the fairway, and I said right, and Tony looked at me with a huge smile on his face and he goes. I looked at Tiger and I said, how the kids, And Tiger looked at me and said good and then walked fast all the way and said and Tony realized it was on. We go back to Sevy in eighty six. Padrick Harrington once told me he's one of the most thoughtful players in the last couple of decades. He's going to be in the World Half Hall of Fame, three time major champion and an absolutely fabulous guy. Padrick Harrington once told me the Masters is the hardest Major championship to win. I said, really. I said, it's played at the same place you get used to the golf course, short field, no rough, small's field, and basically twenty five people can win it unless there's a real strange anomaly. But only twenty five of those ninety or so guys have the chops to get it done. And he said, because it's played now, this is Padrecks. Because it's played at the same venue, you remember the ghosts just as much as you remember the greatness. I said, really, what do you mean? He goes. When I was growing up, Sevy was my guy. So the whole world is watching the eighty six Masters. Sevey had already won it twice. He'd already been a five time major champion, a World Golf Hall of Fame inductee, without ever having to hit another golf shot in his life. He was going to moonwalk into the Hall of Fame. And here he is at the top of the hill at fifteen hitting his second shot. Jack Nichols is way behind him. Sevey's gonna win another Masters. Scott he had that. He had that the double Nike logo on the visor. It was Nike on the bottom, Nike on the top. That's exactly right. And he smotherhooked his second shot at fifteen, went into the drink and that was the end of Sev And I was like, I go, padrig that's what you remember about the eighty six Masters, he goes. Sevy was my guy. So every time I stand in a practice round in any time a year, or Thursday through Sunday at Augusta, on the top of the hill at fifteen, that's all I think about. That's why the Masters is so hard to win. There are ghosts at Augusta. There is less oxygen at Augusta than anywhere else on the planet. And that's why Tiger, if his body holds up, we'll always have a chance to win their Remember Freddie was a leader there in his mid fifties. Bernard Langer in his mid fifties was a leader. Heck, Ben Crenshaw was like a hundred and he was one of the early leaders on the first day. And I love that. I'm just kidding, But you can win there if you know the place. Nobody in today's game knows it better than Tiger. Not where to hit it, where not to hit to hit. That's the key to what Tiger could be doing in April at the Masters. If he makes a run at six, can you imagine the sports world? Oh, if he makes a run at it, that would be outrageous. Rory McElroy Sandy, Um, I know you probably feel the same. I have no idea how that kid played as good as he played last year with the weight of basically Jay wanting him to carry the the PGA Tour and Rory wanting to do that as well. I mean, he played a practice time with DJ Tuesday. We played like I think maybe five six seven holes, and you could see that he was visibly he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. And he is now the de facto he is the PJA tour right now. I mean we haven't. I mean, I don't know anybody that's seen. I mean, is whence the last time anybody saw jam on hand? I mean, Rory is the PGA tour right now. They want him to be the PGA Tour and he seemingly wants that role too. Canny keep doing it and will it affect his play the more that he is the face of the PGA tour. It's a great question. I think some of that has calmed down a little bit. I think when they were in the throes of it last year in twenty twenty two, you know, Rory took the mantle by the way, volunteered for it. He was asked, but he also volunteered for it. You know, Rory isn't afraid to give his opinion. Rory is a very bright young man, is very centered and understands and is very thoughtful. When he gives an opinion, there's thought behind it. He's not just throwing something on the wall to see if it sticks. I'm continually amazed at how great he is on and off the golf. Of course, I've said this for years on and off the air. There's not a better combination on and off the golf course than Rory McElroy right now in the world of golf. He is. He has taken this one to heart. You know, you can like it or dislike it. You can agree with him or disagree with him, but this is something that he is very passionate about and he has kind of taken it on his own and his golf hasn't suffered. It's amazing, Claude. I mean, you know, you're around these guys, you know, as much, if not more than I am. You know, if they don't have that clarity we talked about earlier, it's hard to succeed. And you know, I think that Rory, Rory needs to win the Masters. You know, he's one He's a Master's away from becoming the sixth man in the history of the sport to win their career Grand Slam. I have no idea. I can't stand when someone says, oh, I'd have these one one, he's gonna win five. I can't stand that. I have no idea if he wins the Masters in April, if he's ever gonna win again, or he's gonna go win a hundred of him, I don't know. But Rory is one of those guys who he can compartmentalize. He has a young family at home, He has his parents always around. Rose and Jerry are so great to be around, his wife Erica, their daughter Poppy. They're probably gonna grow that family, I would assume. And he's played great all the while, going to board meetings and zoom calls and Live this and PGA tour of that, and it's it's been amazing. It's been fun to watch. It's been fun to see him. I don't mean to sound like an old man, but it's been fun to see him mature from a smart young kid and a great player and a prodigy to fulfilling that promise as a player Claude, but also maturing as an individual to the point now where you talk about like Max Hoomo, you can just sit and talk to anybody, talk to him about anything. You could sit and talk to Rory McElroy about anything, and it's just he's just wonderful to be around. He's a credit to the game. It's a big credit to Jerry and Rose who raised a fine young man and also a great great golfer. And I am amazed the ability he has to compartmentalize. I will say I'll close out on this. During COVID, he was the first guy I heard say I can't play in front of no fans. The silence is really weird to me. It's very strange. It's bizarre. I can't get used to it. I don't feel not only do I not hear and feel the energy, but I feel like my energy is lowered because there's nobody around. I feel like live in a very different way. Claude, I'd eat live, and the choices he made last year publicly and privately as it pertains to Live motivated him to be a great player, and I think you are seeing a motivated player along with someone who's thought full and has an understanding of where he feels like the game needs to be at the highest level. I think the only thing that I think is negative is if he gets the lead at any major, but specifically if he's taking any sort of lead one shot, two shot. However, the pressure for him to win this for the PGA tour becomes something that nobody has ever in our sport had to deal with, and nor should they have to deal with. I mean, that is just do you think that's what we saws andrews or do you think he got beat by Camsman. I think he got beat, But I mean he came out a little bit flat. I mean I thought, I mean, we were both there and I'm thinking there is nobody that wins today other than him, and I just I mean I was, especially after the way played on Saturday and all of the things that he did and the way that he did it, and going into Sunday, DJ was a couple probably maybe two three, grew maybe four groups ahead. So we were kind of him in that same kind of wave. We were on the we're on the practice range together, and you could just tell that you know these guys when when when they when there's something different about them, because we see them all the time. You sense it, you can smell it, you can feel it, you can taste it, and you could see that he was in a very different his body language. I thought, I've seen him play a ton of I've watched him hit a million golf balls. He was different that day, and um, you know, and he was different that day than he was the day before. Um, you know, very similar. My dad always says about Greg Norman when Greg had the epic meltdown at Augusta. Um, he was a different person on Sunday than he was when he left the golf course Saturday night. And I noticed a difference in Rory, and I was surprised that he didn't come out of the gate because I just figured that's all we'd hear. We'd just hear him Bertie the first, We'd hear him Bertie the second, Bertie the third, and then just the world would have ended. I mean, there'd have been more people there than you could shake a stick out. I think there's a few things there. I totally agree with you. I can't imagine the pressure of being the favorite. I can't imagine the pressure not only have being the favorite clout, but being the people's choice. He's the favorite gambling wise and personality wise. He's who everybody in the world was rooting for at Saint Andrew's. That place means more to golf than anywhere outside of Augusta National. And he was going to win an Open championship there and all great players know they only get two or three chances at it in their prime at Saint Andrews, and when you have an opportunity like that, you don't want to let us slip away. The pressure is immense. Gazi won a major since the PGA in twenty fourteen in Valhalla. It's a long time and we're not talking about someone who's forty eight. Find someone who's like thirty four, thirty five. I always say to people Sancy that in two twenty fourteen, if you'd have told someone twenty twenty three, Rory McElroy and Brooks kept are going to have the exact same amount of majors, when Brooks hadn't just barely gotten on the PGA tour, you'd say, well, I don't know if Brooks could ever win one. And you're thinking at that point he's got four. By the time twenty three roles around, he's probably gonna have ten. I mean, it's one hundred percent right. There's no way in the world you could have looked back and walked away from Valhalla and thought, you know, in twenty twenty three, when we all convene at the Masters, MCA is gonna have the same number of Majors. It's amazing and still be trying to win at Augusta in his prime, Claude and in his prime, I mean we're talking about, you know, some really really fruitful years there that have gone away. Now he can get on a heater and go in everywhere. By the way, he won his Open championship at Liverpool, so that's a good vibe for him. I think oak Hill. Guess who's from Rochester, His wife, Erica, her entire family, all of them from Rochester. That would be special, you know. I think, oh, look, I think he's gonna win a Masters. I think I think I was more confident three years ago than I am now. But I do think he's gonna win a Masters because I just think he's great and I think he's a great guy, and I think that sometimes, you know, sometimes they give you, they give you something, you know. Ernie else had a lot of heartbreak, had a lot of heartache, and then all of a sudden twenty twelve but Royalitham and Saint Ann's Adam Scott, who is a fabulous guy and a fabulous player, couldn't make a par in the last four holes, and Ernie made a big, big put and ended up winning another Open championship to give him four majors, two and two US Opens and Open championships. I think sometimes, you know, those things happened Jack in eighty six was magical. Nineteen with Tiger Woods was magical. Magical things tend to happen at Augusta National, and I think other than Gene Sarazin, and it's hard to, you know, mess with the Squire. I love the Squire. Everybody loves the Squire. But let's not pretend that major championships meant as much back then as they do now. And I mean they were meaningful, they were big, but the Masters wasn't the Masters. Then. He's the only player in the history of the sport to complete the Grand Slam at Augusta. So Rory is facing some serious, serious headwinds Claude, but I think it's going to happen, and it might. It might happen in about six seven weeks. Lastly, changing gears totally to your world. We've seen some of your colleagues at NBC, the great Roger Malpe, Gary coke Um make their exits. Nick Faldo no longer in the in the first chair up at CBS and the new breed. Uh, you know one of our dear, dear friends, Trevor Immerman getting that role. I think Colt Nost is doing a hell of a job as it's coming on to the scene. I think John Wood's doing an amazing job. I mean, Amanda and kier Dixon, I mean, they do great work. But there is this youth movement and some of the old guard moving out. And what's your take on that? How you? How you? I mean, firstly, Trevor, how do you think he's done? I think he's done. Unbelievable. I've worked with Trevor for a long time. I was there when he made the transition from playing to broadcasting, and that's not an easy transition to make. You still want to play, you still have the inkling to play. And he went over to play some some European tour events. He's played some tour events, he's played some of the US. Now he's a full time broadcaster and he's fabulous. He's great, he looks great, he sounds great. He knows the game, he won the Masters, he knows today's players. I think he's a wonderful addition. I grew, I grew to love Nick Foudo on and off the air. He was an all time tough guy when he played Claude, but he softened up quite a bit once he left playing competitively. But it was time to make that switch. And I think CBS did the right thing in giving Trevor his shot, and I think he's taken full advantage of it. I've been in the booth with Trevor for years, and he's going to be great. I think the youth movement looked. I miss Roger and Gary on a personal level. I I miss raising a glass with those two, cutting open a big steak with those two, and also broadcasting with them, and listening to them and learning from them, and hearing the funny stories at dinner and in the trailer and during rain delays and all the same stories we've heard twenty times and still laugh just as hard. But you know, look, I'm fifty four o'clock. You know time moves forward. You know my time's gonna run out. You know everybody's time runs out, And like golf itself, in TV, jobs are so great, we're so lucky to have them. You normally don't leave on your own terms. It's just not the way it works, and that's okay as long as it's not taken too early. You know, you know, Roger and Gary are seventy seventy one. I believe maybe seventy and sixty nine an amazing run. They are sorely missed. They will be missed, they will never be replaced. Kurt Byram and Brad Faxon and John Wood and Smiley Kaufman are now the mainstays as far as those go. And and that's the way life works. I think broadcasting, Look, everything is a young man's a young woman's game. You know, everything is better when you're younger. I get that. You know, people like me and you were just trying to hang in there go now. You just hang on as long as you can and let the ride continue. But I think that the people who set the standard before you, I think it's incumbent upon all of us. Look, when I got hired by NBC in the early twenty tens, I remember thinking the responsibility of being on network television and being the person who interviews the players first, always first. There's a there's a heavy responsibility to that. I think there's a responsibility when I'm in the tower where I'm in the booth following golf, that the audience is enlightened, entertained, but also informed, you know, And there's a lot to that and the people who were before me. I learned a lot from and hopefully implement that, whether I'm doing play by player interviews, whatever it is. And I think these guys learned under Roger. John Wood is as good as he is now on TV because he got to work with Roger. Did he pick his brain all day every day? No, You've got to be your own person. But learning from literally who I think is the greatest walker of all time and televised golf, I think that you can only learn and pick up things like john Wood has. I think that you know, Gary cookes at the standard. As far as being a whole announcer, I think Nick Foudo was an all time great like Johnny Miller for years in the big chair. And I think Trevor has learned how to criticize but also be enthusiastic. I think that there's a there's a fine mix there between the two. But yeah, everything's going younger, everything's going less expensive. Um, you know, sign of the times, Claude is what it is. But I think that for the most part, you know, whether I was broadcasting or watching the West Coast, I thoroughly enjoyed CBS's telecasts. I think Golf Channel does a fabulous job. And I think NBC this past weekend, for the first time, we had a little bit a time at mon Maui, but as far as you know, in the continental United States, at a regular if you will quote unquote regular event with a full field and also a regular start times and end times, I think NBC picked up right where it left off and as one of the standards in all of sports television. And we're gonna have that group for the next five weeks from Bay Hill all the way to the Valero Texas Open, and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. But there's a lot of changes going on, Claude, you know that. Um, we're just trying to hang in there, buddy, you know, let's just keep let's just keep rolling, and hopefully nobody notices and about ten or fifteen years from now, they go, you know what, that guy's still around, Get him out of here, and I will be glad to walk through that door. If it's like sixty eight sixty nine seventy, but hopefully it continues for a long time because it's a blast and I can't imagine a better way to make a living. And the people we work with and work for, Claude, I mean, we're awfully lucky to do what we do, and you're a big part of that, whether you know it or not, whether it's a text message for information about one of your players, whether it's doing a podcast with you, whether we're doing outings together corporate wise, or whether you grace us with your presence on the set or in a phone call because you're not on site. It's it's all a circus, man. We're all clowns in the circus Claude, and hopefully hopefully that big ten keeps rolling. All right. Well, we'll look forward to seeing you at AUGUSTA will definitely raise a glass and it'll be paid for by Katon. It'll be great. Two of the great words in the English language. Free booze. I mean, hopefully twenty twenty three is a little calmer than twenty two, and we can let the golf take care of the golf. Isn't that what it's supposed to be, Claude, Though I understand whatever everybody has their own thing. Everybody has their own lane, their own path. Some of them are rocky, some of them were paved. But golf at the highest level is really strong right now. These guys are so great, the women on the LPGA Tour. Grant Boon by the way, because father passed away on the Friday of the event at Lake Nona, and I got asked to come into the booth and do the LPGA event on Saturday and Sunday. I mean, they're playing some seriously high level golf on the LPGA Tour, some seriously high level golf on the men's side, whether it's lived or whether it's the PGA Tour, And hopefully it's a it's a little bit of a smoother ride in twenty twenty three. But I think we're heading in that direction, but I don't know who knows. All right, Well, we'll look forward to seeing you on TV for the next five weeks, Sandsy be well, all right, claud good to talk to you, buddy. Stay safe, I'll see it Augusta. So that was Steve Sands and I love that guy, and it's crazy. I used to see him on a regular basis and with all this craziness. That's the first time we've actually had a real kind of sit down and talk. So I think he's one of the great voices in the game, and you're going to get a big dose of him over the coming weeks as NBC takes over the coverage of the PGA Tour, So that is going to be a positive for me. I've been doing some more solo episodes of the podcast. It seemed to be doing well. But if you've got ideas of what topics you'd like me to discuss, hit me up, you know, send me a DM on Instagram and I'll try and get to as many solo topics as I can get to. Um, it's always great to have guests on, but if you want to hear me talk about anything golf related, let me know, because I'm happy to do it. I like doing the solo ones. Um it's kind of like, you know, given lessons. It's definitely part of my job and I really like doing them. So hit me up, let me know which topics you'd like to discuss. And I can't thank everybody enough. I keep say this, but um, the fact that everybody's listening when I'm at tournaments people come up and say they're big fans of the podcast, and that is just that is so cool for me to to to hear that, and um, I love doing it. Um. Thanks everyone for listening, rate, review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. Son of a Buich comes to you every Wednesday. We will be back next week.