Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. I think it's appalling that the woman that was convicted of accessary after the fact that came to our house at the time of the murders and gave us information we went to the police. Nobody has come to us and wanted to ask us and question us further. She told us incriminating facts, and no one has requestioned us. Welcome to Sleuth. I'm Linda Sawyer. Throughout this podcast, I have attempted to share with our listeners various interviews with people who knew the ex Disney princess Rachel Buffett prior to her meeting Dan, during her time with Dan as his fiancee, and her time subsequent to Dan Wozniak's arrest and incarceration. But how much do we really know about Dan prior to his courtship with Rachel Buffett? For that, I have met several times over the last year's with Kristen and John Spath, whose daughter Brittany dated Dan prior to Rachel Buffett. Most of the people I've spoken to have told me they believe Brittany was the love of Dan's life. Kristen and John were like family to Dan, as he referred to Kristen as Mama and John as the big guy. They have stories you'll want to hear, and you won't hear anywhere else but on Sleuth. So today on Sleuth, I want to welcome Kristen and John Spath to the program. Thank you first of all for your time and coming here. Welcome, Welcome, And I think more than any other guests I've had on the show, I truly believe that both of you probably have the best insights into the Dan Wozniac prior to his relationship with Rachel Buffett. So I wanted you to share with our listeners because I know you really had an intimate knowledge of this person as a younger man. I mean, from what I understand, he not only dated your daughter, but there was talk of marriage at one point, and you even thought that he could very well become your son in law. He had a key to your home, he went on vacations with you. I mean, this was a gentleman you really thought you knew quite well. Yeah, really really did. He was part of our family, part of the family. So more than anything, I mean I know that you have said to me that when he was part of your family. You never saw any signs of a violent person or someone that was apabul of what he ultimately did in this case. But since then, since all that's happened that we know, the murders, the trial, the conviction, him now on death row in San Quentin. You said, you feel like you can start putting pieces of the puzzle together, share with our listeners some of some of the insights, and and let's also hear about your experiences with him prior to Rachel and maybe we should start there. How you met Daniel Wazniak. Actually, I think you met him before I did, because he was our daughter had joined the cast of our children's theater, Orange County Children's Theater and it was music man. So we met him there. And your daughter had attended Ocean removed from Massachusetts from Boston. Yes, so she could attend the high school performing arts. Yes, that was a dream of hers. When we met him, he instantly we realize is that this was a good person. I mean that was our first impression. He was different than the average kid. He was he was happy, go lucky, he was polite and consider it, and it wasn't the normal teenager The other thing too, is I think that what happened with the with that theater community was they would have what they called their alumni, would be persons such as Dan who had graduated from high school, and they would have them come back in alumni roles as mentors. So they were using this was the Orange County Children's which actually you read at one point, right, I was a president, but not at the time then was there. It was this was afterwards that I became president. So he was well respected in that theater community that they were asking him to come back in a mentoring role. The children loved him, the parents loved him. So it wasn't just your personal opinion of him, an impression of him. You're saying that it was pretty much widespread throughout the theater community. Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely absolutely. And then at some point Dan actually ended up dating your daughter. Yes, it was during the production while they were in rehearsals. And an interesting is when they started dating, he had asked her to keep it hush hush because he didn't want it to interfere with the production because he had a love interest in the actual production, in the cast, in the cast and this was music man. Yes, do you know the year? Do you remember the year? It was four thousand and five, but you know what it was. It's it's rehearsal started in October two thousand and four and the production place a thousand and five. Okay, so, I mean we were new to the theater world at the time, but it kind of made sense to us. Were like, okay, well all right, I get it, so we'll just keep it quiet. And at the time Brittany wasn't thrilled with that, but again she's like, Okay, this is what he asked. Let's keep it quiet because we don't he doesn't want us to ruffle feathers. Well, you said he was in an advisory position, so maybe he felt or maybe you could appreciate it exactly, it might seem inappropriate, exactly. That's exactly his words to us us was he didn't want it to become a distraction to the show. And that mate, so we all honored it and went along. And were you the music director not for this one? Now, now, we would just have been in many instance, yes, County yes, and other theaters, yeah, but this one we were parents volunteers, and so we were around and what was nice as we got to know the kids, we got to see how he interacted with other kids, and at that point we were okay with him dating our daughter. We thought that he was just a few years older. Later, many years later, a few years later, we found out how how big of a difference, How big of a difference was it. I think there was like four and a half years difference. And because Brittany was still not seventy. She was sixteen when she started dating Dan, and he was not that he was not exactly the age that we thought he was. We thought he was eighteen. So but you also said to me, I believe at one point that all the mothers were a bit envious because they all wanted Dan to be dating their daughter. Yeah, which is pretty People would come up and say, oh, wow, you out, You're lucky your daughter's dating him. And and she also, I think of him that same sense of pride, because from what I understand, when she came into audition for the first time, and Brittany, your your daughter has an incredible voice, right, I mean, it's a larger than life voice. And she was a tiny little thing and with this booming, beautiful voice, and from what I understand, he was pretty proud because he was sort of in the audience while she was auditioning, right, Yes, because he came up to me during the auditions and said, Wow, your daughter is amazing. So that was the initial attraction probably, I think so. Yeah, it was something he admired. And I can also tell you that, as you know, I've interviewed over three people to date on this case, and so many people have said to me that they believe that Brittany was the love of his life. And and you you almost wonder if there was a different path he took. But she found out that he was cheating, right, I mean, that's what ended it. Yeah, Well, it was even more other than that. It was just she the lies that he would tell, it was so consistent, and it was just so it became like part of their everyday life that she just couldn't deal with that anymore. She didn't know what the truth was. If he had a hamburger, he would literally lie and say it had a hot dog for no reason. That's what his friends in high school said. That the lies in the beginning were so ridiculous and unnecessary, right, well, completely unnecessary. I think I've I've said that Kristen, and I don't think I've ever made this remark to you, but if I was going to write a book about Dan, I would title at the Master of the Seat. M hm. So you you often caught him in lies as well the we caught him in lies and then, um, you know, it's one of those stories like when you first hear on the news that you know that the guy next door became a murderer. They they interviewed the neighbors and everybody said, oh, I couldn't believe it. He was such a great guy and everything else. We had that initial reaction initial let me stress that initial reaction ourselves was we couldn't believe it. However, when we started putting pieces together, we started We're going, oh, we could see that was a lie. We can see that was the seat, you know. And I had developed a saying about Dan he couldn't tell the truth. If it worked better. I wonder if you think that habit, or that tendency he had to lie, developed from the relationship he had with his mother. I have often thought that, and I think that she she put him on this pedestal and Danny was everything to her, and I think that he felt this is my opinion, that he felt he could never achieve, that he would never be exactly what she wanted him to be. So I think he had pressure. It was too high. Yes, I think that was a constant pressure. And he loved his dad, loved his dad. I don't think he feeled that same warmth with his mother, and I think there was almost like a fear. Yeah. Well, the lyne seemed to be predicated on the fact that there was no girl that was good enough in Maryanne was absolutely absolutely he had to lie to to see these girls too, even Brittany, who she had a relationship with. You guys, right, I mean you did share some some time together, as well as go on a vacation together. Let's talk about that experience because it was quite telling it speaking. Yes, yes, it was her sophomore year, and it was Dan's idea that we all take a whose vacation together and he wanted to surprise britt that he was coming. We just told Brittany that we were taking around a cruise and she was all sad because she was gonna miss vacation week and not be with Dan because we were going on a family vacation. When in fact, Dan and his parents were coming. So his parents and I and John, we're all in cahoots together. We were going to surprise her on board that day and Dan and then we're going to pop out. And we did, and we had we had a great vacation time. It was a cruise. It was a cruise. How long was it for? About five days? I think about five days? And where did you go? Well, it's what they call a repositioning cruise. They were they were taking the ship from San Diego to Uma Victoria, Canada to start the summer season accent Vancouver, of starting the summer sea and of taking people to Alaska on the ship. So we went on what was called a repositioning cruise from San Diego to Vancouver. And who arranged the details? I think Dan actually North. Well, we know Marianne. Marianne arranged because I know that marian Waznick was a big cruiser because she used to take her family and the boys and their friends as well, So it sounds like she perhaps was the planner in this case. Yeah, they had a travel agent they worked with arranged all their cruises. And if I recall correctly, Um, she just said, well, let my travel agent arrange for all of us, and that's what we did. But that's how comfortable she was with both of you at the time, right, and when you're sharing a holiday together at the time, I got as intimate as it gets. Yeah, yep. And the cruise went wonderful. We had lots of fun until and then we we we ended up the cruise had ended. We were in Vancouver, Vancouver and spending the night, we had tickets to go see Tony and Maria's wedding. Yeah, we went all together to that and every it seemed like everybody had a great time. And that's a total group thing. It was before that that something had switched, before that you had to see her or something right. Well, what happened is one of the I think it's like the second of the last day of the cruise. Her and I had gone to tea, just her and I and we were talking about things, past times of mothers and special events in our child's life. And I happened to mention Brittany sweet sixteen that we had taken it to New York City and I said that was last year or something like that was just in conversation. So you put an age to her, yes, a number. Never did I know that Dan had. It was a double lie. Dan had lied to us and made himself younger to us, and he had lied to his parents and made Brittany older. So it was a double eye that I had. No we had no clue. So that day it revealed to Marianne Rosniac that Brittany was much younger than she thought. So the next day, so she's starting to think, you know, if I may interrupt for a moment, we didn't know. All of a sudden, Mary Anne stopped talking to us for the rest of the cruise. But we but we didn't know why that what we thought it was because Darrell had gotten sick and she was upset because it was that much of a drastics shift. We were playing shuffle board one day and the next day not speaking to us. This is the day that we were getting off. So she thought you were She thought you knew, yes, And if you know, let me fast forward quite a bit. Okay, after after Dan had been arrested and um the trial didn't know he was No, he was still in r he was there for five years. We we ran into Dan's mother and father at a show one of a theater show, and she had spoken tests in years. She hadn't no, no, and she she broke down. She apologized when she came over to you, and yes, she says, I am so sorry. She says, I didn't know, and that's when she explained what she knew about the lie and deceit from Dan. We had no idea. You know, how simple would it have been. I'm sorry, but how simple would have been to say, as an adult to two other adults, I didn't know this? And this disturbs me. This bothers me. The age difference. And I was told one thing by my son, in other words, to go into that disconnected, detached, cold status without giving you any indications. So odd she and she used your exact words. She says, I was worried about statutory rape being involved in this, and that's why I wanted the whole thing ended and over with. And then what she said, I'd explain herself right behavior. What she said after that, I'll never forget. And she had said she had turned to us, and she had said, if I only had known what he ended up with, that was such a small thing, meaning referring to Brittany and his age yes, she says, wow. She because if I had only known, she goes what I would have traded to have. That is a problem. Let's see. That goes back to my observation of Dan's need to lie. I mean, starting out with innocuous, silly lies, too serious lies that I think ultimately really did dictate his personality disorder. And it had to do with having to lie to her all the time. And I remember him telling me several times he says, my mother has never liked anybody that I've dated, and never will. He says, no one will ever be good enough. And you know what, that's exactly the same thing that Tim Wozniak said to me when I interviewed him about his girlfriends. I mean, at some point, you have to give your kids space to breathe. I think you even told me once when Dan was in your presence, that the phone would just be ringing off the hook from her, that she would call sometimes a hundred times a day, and he would try to ignore, but then would lie if he was in a place where she wouldn't want him to be. Well. Part of that, looking back now with from the Master of the Seat, is that he would say it was his mother, but I often wondered if he had some other girls dangling on the side that you know, he never showed it's his phone and said this is my mother. He would always just say, oh, it's my mother again. She won't leave me alone. But didn't you also say that Brittany had experiences when she'd call there, and that Marian was very cold to her and wouldn't allow her to connect with the whole time they were dating. I think she went over there maybe once or twice at the most because she felt so uncomfortable because she was not allowed. She wasn't allowed. No, no, no, no no, I wasn't allowed. After the cruise, there was times like we tried to talk to Marian and say, hey, what's going on? Can we talk about this? We would call, she would hang up, we would call. She blocked on you guys. She would blocked all of our phones, our cell phones, our house phone, Brittany's phone, she blocked us. We weren't allowed to talk to her, wouldn't couldn't communicate. I mean, I have to say, I've known you guys now for nearly three years, and I mean you guys couldn't be nicer, educated, lovely, people to be around and with a lot of integrity. I can't understand how she wouldn't have just said, I want to sit down and talk to you both and tell you what's on my mind, tell you what I'm feeling, my concerns, because then you at least have the information to go from there. Right. And as a mother, I would have welcomed that, you know, it takes a village. I would have welcomed a mother saying, hey, I don't know. Do you not know that my son is this old? Right? So it seems like it would have been such a simple way to handle it versus all this questioning and being in the dark, and then of course the lies, and and and probably feeling like is there something wrong with us? Or is it Brittany or what I mean? We sat for years wondering, and then finally that day that we saw her, it was revealed to us. But way too late, way too late. Yea. You know one of the lies of Dan that, let me say this, one of what I believe to be one of Dan's lies was every year on Christmas Eve, we have a big open house at our house, and there's a lot of people that would come, would be in the entertainment industry, musicians, singers and so forth, and it would be almost an open mic night at our house on Christmas Eve and everybody would be singing and everything else. And I can remember Christmas Eve, Dan said, well, I can't come unto eleven o'clock. I have to be with my mother and my dad. My mother requires that I attend a family function. And I sort of thought that was a little bit odd, because you know, once your children reach that age, you've got to start releasing. You can't control and say, well, you're going to be here, you know. And looking back now, I don't know if that was a restriction Mary Anne placed on or if he was going somewhere else on his own accord and just using her as an excuse. Well, I know that from what I understand from cousins and other people that were at events like that in the laws Niak clan, that he was very much a big part of whatever family oriented events they did attend. And I mean he was someone that did magic tricks for them and sang for them. And Tim did also share with me that she was very particular, especially she was a very religious woman, and especially at something like a Christmas holiday. I could almost see her laying the edict, laying down the law that this is what you had to attend she I mean she had the same thing about Mass every Sunday and then the family dinner. I mean, they had structure when it came to a religious type events. So in that regard, I almost think that he might have been telling the truth in that. In that respect, there was a lot I'm sorry I jumped on you. There was a lot of things that Marianne stipulations that Marianne would put that came into play with the breakdown, I say, of Brittany and Dan's relationship and when being I'm going to say about a year and a half into their dating period, all of a sudden, he says, my mom says that I'm we're seeing too much of each other and I can only see you. I think it was three days a week. I think it was less than that, two days a week or something that had to be like almost like appointments. Was this before the cruise where were no after? After? This was like the beginning of the end for Brittany Um and Dan, And so all of a sudden, it was just having to jump through this hoop and jump through this hoop, and there's more stipulations and more rules, and you can't call the house, you can't do this. We can only see a couple of times a week. And and that's where. And now in retrospect we look back and we go, Okay, was it all Marianne? Was there rather girls combination? Was it just another second life he was living. I mean, it sounds almost as if the only way he could escape that was to live a second life, absolutely and become other people for himself. I mean, just too. And I think he lived multiple lives. I don't think that he had a life. I think there was a life with mom and dad, there was a life with Brittany and us, and then I think there's a third and fourth life too, the bad boy life. Absolutely absolutely At the time do we didn't think that? And that's where I think the personality disorder develops from there. You know, the shuffling, the lying, the shifting, the changing of who you are depending on who you're with, and then you know, ultimately the drugs. But we'll get into that. I know that, John, You've told me that Dan and you spoke and there was this conversation that if anything ever happened to you, God forbid that. Dan said he would take care of Kristen. He obviously felt a very special bond with you, Kristen, and I think in many ways looked to you as more of a mother figure that he felt he could be himself around. He always called me Mama, and he said I'm more or I was more of a mother to him than his own mother. And he would say that so often. He would come to me for advice. He always called John the big Guy, and I think he viewed him as a dad, but he loved his dad so much that he create created another. The big Guy was his way of saying dad, because he didn't want to lose. He didn't care for Darryl, his father. I mean, everybody said that when Darryl would show up at the theater for shows, he always made because Darrel walked with a cane and he always made sure that he was comfortable and his seating was They never missed. I'm sorry, they never missed a performance. Like Daryl was both of them. But oppression, yeah, especially Darrell. In fact, Dan had already made the remark to me that he hated the way his mother treated his absolutely, that was one thing that she was the one that ruled the roost. Absolutely, didn't he even when you had that cruise, didn't you see him at some point and he said something along lines of I'm sorry she's not herself today, or trying to apologize for her behavior and yes, cover up for it. Yeah, And when we were when we sat at that Tony and Maria's or Tony and Tina whatever it was the theater Tony and Tina's wedding, Darryl even apologized and made excuses because her behavior was just so horrible. They were both uncomfortable. He was embarrassed. Both Dan and Darryl are uncomfortable and embarrassed. I think that you even talked about the way he was with you and the way he could be him self around you. He was there for you in some pretty dark times in your life, especially when your dad got very sick. One thing that always stood out in my mind and is something he said to me one day. And I had always said, you're always so happy because he always had a smile everybody that ever knew him. I don't think many people saw him not smiling. And he said, he goes, I'm like a clown. He goes, it's all on the outside, but the inside is unhappy, and that just struck me. From that day forward, I always kind of thought, what else is going on. I didn't have a clue, but it just bothered me. And I used to think that it was just his mom and the pressure she put on him. With me um, I felt that he wanted to do all the things that he didn't get to do with his mom. And you would be able to sit and have coffee, he'd say, come on, let's go uh shopping uh if or we'd go pick up Brittany from school. We just got to do things that you do with a son. But I don't think he had that with his mother. And he would just tell me how much it meant to me that I had I put that time aside for him, and he expressed that in what you told me a very compassionate way, especially when your dad was sick, that he was there with you with the oncologist, and I know I think that was actually I was having iron infusions and it was a lengthy period of time. I went. We were there for like six or eight hours one day or something, and he came and he sat with me. There was at the oncologist office, and he sat with me and he brought a picnic and we watched movies, and I think you were there for part of it. John was there for part of it. Then John had to leave, so Dan said, no, I'm coming, I'm coming. So he was dedicated. You know, if I needed a ride to something, if I wasn't feeling good, Dan was there. I'm take you just like a son with absolutely Brittany at the time. One of the things that I haven't shared with a lot of people is that at one time my dad, my father, made a remark to me saying, I know, I never have to worry about your mother as long as you're alive. And I that's that's a big compliment for a father to give to a son, Okay, And I never expressed that in words, but for a period of time I felt the same way about Dan, where when I would see how he acted with Kristen, that a son mother son relationship going just seems so healthy and so good and so generous, and um, he was in your heart, he was in my heart. Yeah. As our friends all know is that I'm nineteen years older than Kristen, so I've thought a lot of I think about things like that, so it gave me a good feeling. But then fast forward in the story here, I started to see the deceit coming into play, and you had an experience with Daniel. It occurred the weekend of the murders, but you had no idea yet that the murders had taken place. And I want to talk about that event because I really believe that that is indicative of what you just said about how he felt about you and how you felt about him. He was coming to you, and in many ways in that event, I feel like in that moment, he was coming to you for the ultimate advice because he had just committed two murders for a woman he wasn't sure he was ready to go further down the road within his life. And I want to talk about it because I know that for you, that really is something that haunts you to this day. It was the it was the sun. I'm just for our listeners going to capture the time frame. Dan had killed sam Hair Friday afternoon in the attic of the Liberty Theater that was on May one that evening until the early hours of the Saturday morning. He then Lord Julie Cavulishi to Sam Hair's apartment and killed her at twelve or four am. He then came to you down in southern California in your townhouse and on Sunday the second was it right? And he's I think Brittany and Kristen you were up in San Francisco, right, she was auditioning for American Idol. No, she was auditioning for a show. She had gotten a callback for a theater show. Yeah. So we had gone up there for the weekend, and so he knew you were away, and he yes, wanted to speak to you alone. He called us. Actually, he called Britney and I and said, hey, I know you guys on around. He goes, but is dad around. I'm gonna the big guy is a big, big guy around. I'm gonna go have dinner with him. I want to have dinner with him, and says, yeah, get him a call. He's around. And so take us back to that time. Well, Dan called me and he said, hey, big guy, I understand Mom and Brittany are out of town and you're batching it this weekend. He says, uh, what do you say? I stopped by, will have a couple of cigars and put some stakes on the girl. And I said, yeah, it's great, and it's not I mean, this was not a surprise we have He and I had done this before, this kind of thing, so I, um, you would have lunch with him off. Sure, So he came down to the house that that evening and we had in the same weekend of the murders. Yeah, and of course not not not I didn't know any of this, you know. And but the conversation we we went on. We talked about some things in general, and then he came down to the conversation of being about he had he was having second thoughts about getting married. It was almost he was saying to me. He was explaining that he almost didn't feel strong enough, that he was too weak to call the wedding off, that he didn't know what to do. It's someone that didn't like confrontation. Yes, absolutely, And he said to me that he was wrestling with this all and and he admired you so much because you took you would always take the bull by the horns and fix whatever problems your family had, and you'd face anything you had to to do that. And he think he was looking for that kind of strength. Well, actually we had another conversation about that very thing at one time. But that night I said to him, and I used a phrase. I said, Dan, it is a lot easier to get married than it is unmarried, and meaning you get into a marriage, you have children and everything else. You know, think about this, Dan, before you're going on. You need to think about that. And we left it at that. We we left the conversation at that. But the other point I said, I'll get back to you with it is at one time Dan had made the remark to me he said, I wish I could be like you. He says, you just stand up for things, what you believe in and how you feel. And he says I have a hard time with that. He says, I never got into a fight in school when I was a kid, because said he was bullied. He said he was bullied. He says, yeah, and everything, and he says, I wish I could have been I could be more like you. And so that was you tell me even that he said, you know, I'm a big guy, but I'm afraid to fight because I'm just not one that can handle confrontation. I don't and I think Darryl. Probably he saw in Darryl a father that I wasn't able to really stand up to Mary and either, so when he met you and saw you as a father figure, he honestly probably wanted to be more like you. Yes, I'm looking back now, I'm seeing that, I'm seeing that he came to me wanting to know that. I'm thinking now, is how do I stand up for myself? How do I be you? Yeah? How do I stand up for myself? And it wasn't that I'm sitting here being bragging about being a tough guy and all that kind of stuff. But I am the kind of guy that draws a line in the sand of saying this is where it stops, and this is this is boundaries. You had said to me when we had first met and told me this story that that Dan really was reaching out to you because he said he didn't know how to defend himself against the woman he was about to marry, that he didn't know how to deal with issues and concerns that he had. And I think he has felt like he was sort of becoming his father in a way, and he really wanted to be more more like you. And so I think he was reaching out for you to help guide him, how to maybe get him out of the predicament he saw himself in. Well, I was I would never be one to say to Dan, oh, yeah, I call this marriage off. I would never be one to say something like that. But what I I'm the kind of person I like to lay it on the table and say here's what you can think about. And we went on to talk about my statement of it's easier to marry, but it's harder to get unmarried, and going on to explain those things and saying, we're talking about you're picking a woman to meaning Rachel, to become your wife, and you're getting ready to spend a lifetime with her, and um, you're gonna walk a long time together, and you're gonna have children, and you need to think about all those things. And if you're not comfortable with that right now, don't be bullied into getting married. Just call it off. And how did he respond to that? He closed back up, He closed back up, and uh, he couldn't do it. Yeah, we sort of ended the evening on that note, really, and uh, Dan said goodbye, and you know, we bid each other goodbye, and he went on he had in the last forty eight hours murdered two of his friends. Did you have any indication in his demeanor that he had committed such horrible crimes? No, none, whatsoever? I did looking back now, I um I saw nervous. He was nervous, but again I chalked that up to being the pre wedding groom jitter. Yeah, I mean, but that makes sense. You wouldn't jump to So who did you murder today? Yes, exactly, And it's totally illogical that you would go there. What did you both feel when you finally did here what he had done that weekend? Well, first of all, we heard about it before it really hit the news. We have a friend that works for one of the local radio stations and he saw it come across their news bulletin that he had been arrested. They were the ones that called us and let us know because we were on We were supposed to attend his wedding, and we were on and off of defense of whether we were going to go or not. Did Brittany want you to go or did she not care? She she didn't really want us to go, but at one point she said, ah, we should all crash it. It was like, you know, that's Brittany. Well, Brittany also played a role to a certain extent because they did re establish a relationship and an affair while he was engaged to Rachel. Yeah, we didn't know anything about that, So she didn't share that with you. No, we knew that they remained friends for a while after they they broke up. No, they weren't friends. They didn't speak and then over the years we always stayed friends with him. And then over the years then they started talking and they became friends. And that's what all we knew. It was just friendship. So did she eventually tell you that she had started a little fling with him at some point? It was always coffee, that kind of thing. Okay, so coffee was sex. That she did share with me that she was actually going to meet him again. I think they met a few times, and the time that she was thinking about meeting him again, she said, I decided to cancel for some reason. I don't even know why. She has no explanation for why. It was just an instinct she had. She canceled, And she said it was maybe a few days later that she found out he was arrested for for murdering these people, and she said, I'll never forget. I was at a nail salon and I I excused myself and went into the bathroom and threw up. I just couldn't believe that I had ever been with this person, and then back with this person again, and but again. It's the same thing with Dan coming to see you the weekend of the murders. I mean, you just you don't imagine. You don't jump to Oh, Dan's nervous because he just killed two of his friends and shopped their bodies up in the attic of the theater he performed in. It's so surreal that how how could you imagine? Right? We were in complete, obviously in disbelief for the longest time. And I'm going to jump forward. For me personally, the only way I've been able to h for lack of a better word, accept this is I've had to consider him as he's gone, he's past, he's dead. That is the only way my brain can handle thinking of this. And and I'm not one to recapitulate things over and over. When something's happened, I talk it out, because you need to talk it out, and he'll and then I move on this in coming here today is extremely hard. Do we have to relive all this? And we talked for a long time. Thank you. This wasn't easy and it wasn't something we stayed quiet for the longest time. People would talk about it and we'd kind of shy away because this was such a personal loss. But you did have another experience with visitors, unexpected visitors that prompted you to go to the police. You did finally say it's time we have to talk to someone, an authority because of our concerns. And I'd like to share with our listeners now that event which took place. It was the Saturday after Dan was arrested. Dan was arrested Wednesday evening for accessory after the fact because the Coast of Masa police believed that Sam was on the run and Dan was covering up from and helping him. And then by the next afternoon, Dan had himself confessed to the murders of killing both Sam and Julie. That's Saturday you had a knock on your door. Well, actually, when, why don't you tell the story? We were at we had gone to a picnic at some friends house and um, we were there when Brittany got the call from Rachel wanted to come meet her. Oh God, and she was going to come to our house, and we said, you're not meeting anyone alone right now, because we didn't know where all these cards were going to play out, so to speak. You knew that Dan was arrested, and and you knew that there was murders involved, right, And I'm sorry. And one of our conditions that we accepted the invitation to that picnic was everybody there was in the theater community, and we accepted that we are not going to talk about Dan at that because we didn't want to go unless everybody was on the same board. We're not discussing this. It hurts too much quiet And because those people also knew how close we were, did right. Yeah. And and one of the things we had we've done during this whole period of time is we we maintained a very low profile on even knowing Dan. And it's not that we were denying it. We were not a couple that wanted to rush to fame where everybody heard us talk and everybody heard us, Oh, we knew Dan, and we knew better than that. And I like, all of a sudden It was a competition of yeah, and we saw this happening and we went, oh my gosh, you know, we can't believe it's turning into this circus. It was too hurtful for us. This was a thing that caused us pain. I mean, you really did believe that Brittany was going to be married to him and he was going to be in your family. And after they broke up, we still we considered him a good friend. He still made the effort to Yeah, we saw him all the time, even even the times when Brittany and him were no longer speaking, he was still calling us. And and why did you continue that relationship? Because I always felt like he was a son. He loved him. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, do you still love him? I've never given that thought. I mean, he has a place in my heart. I I can't I can't give you an honest answer. I don't love the person he's turned into. I don't love anything that he's done. Um, maybe this is a good time he was read the mother. Maybe this is a good time to read the Mother's Day card he sent you this. I got this card, and this card caused me so much pain. I went for a good year after I got this card, one of the first things I did is I ran and talked to my pastor lives across that at the time, lived across the street, and I said, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Here's here's the card. This card. This card. Incidentally, um, it came to Kristen the very first Mother's Day. The Dan was in jail. He said, he sent this from Orange County Jail to Kristen. Yeah. It says Happy Mother's Day, Mama. Sorry, it's been so long since writing, but I wanted you to know that you're loved. You've given me some of the best memories anyone could ever ask for. I love you, and I think of you all often. You were always in my prayers and in my heart. I've become a minister in here and doing my best. Please send my love to Britt and the Big Guy. I love you all. Happy MoMA's Day, my my. I told me, I kept going back and do I need do I Should I respond? Should I not respond? And my first thing that came to my mind, I was so worried about. I didn't want to reject him because what if he was reaching out and he had nobody else, and what if he was thinking of hurting himself. All these thoughts were in my head, and that I didn't want to reject him by ignoring it, and like, I kept thinking, this must have been hard for him to send. Why is he sending me a Mother's Day card? Now I'm not a psychiatrist, but listen into those words that he wrote to you. It really sounds like an inner child who desperately needs love and needed your love. And that's what made me so upset because I had gotten to the point this was basically the year after he committed the murders. I had processed it that he was gone, and that's what I had to do. You buried him to stay strong and be able to not have my mind going back and forth like how would he do it? And wringing my hands. I just couldn't do that anymore. So are picturing him in a jail cell and the whole thing. I had to just put him to rest. And then this came and it opened it all up again. So I was at the point I didn't want to have to relive it for me. But then and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I have a responsibility because he's reaching out. What do I do so that we also have a huge heart? You remember the young man there. So that's when I turned to John, who didn't have an answer, and then I turned to my pastor and he said, you don't owe anybody anything, remember that, and you have to do what's best for you. And at that point it was just let it be and now. But I couldn't bring it to myself to throw it away. Part of our thing in this is is that very time is um. I saw it myself personally as another step of dance. Manipulation of people. Isn't an interesting like I'm listening to it and I'm feeling a little choked up for you? And yet then the the male perception is goes to the Dan that he has become right, which is the manipulation and that Yeah, and I took it as here I am, I'm stuck here, but I want you to feel sorry for me, and I I have um um, I believe now that I see Dan for what he really is really Yeah, And do you feel duped by Dan? Oh? Absolutely absolutely? And I am one that I I have no words that I could use to defend Dan and it's not a matter of resentment at all. It's a matter of my eyes have been opened. Right. It's funny, I think you've grown into that position because of out a year and a half ago. I believe I put you at the table with the four woman of the trial of Dan's trial. We all had dinner together, and I remember there was a bit of a divide in the conversation because she obviously felt very strongly that Dan is where he's supposed to be, which I think we all I don't think there's really any disagreement about, right, But we were trying to explain, and of course it was more you guys than it was me. But I had also had so many interviews at that point where I felt like the explanation is that Dan had such low self esteem and he wasn't capable of iver was standing up for himself, and he was always searching for love so desperately that this woman who was calling the shots in this relationship got him to a point where he he was the you know, he was basically a puppet in in this scenario, and she was more of the mastermind. That's the impression I had at the time, given all the interviews I've done, and you both agreed with that analysis because of who you knew. I mean, you think you were still trying to hold on to the person that you knew. But I think with time now you're starting to see it as again, like you said, a manipulation and maybe even manipulated you guys to a certain extent, right, because you're starting to put more of the pieces of the puzzle together and and recognizing that no matter who manipulates you, or no matter who calls the shots in a relationship, it still doesn't mean that you have to get to the point where you're killing people to sustain some kind of a relationship or or to please someone to the point where they're going on the honeymoon cruise that they want and and they don't have to work for a living. I mean, one of the conversations we started was about Rachel's visit to Brittany. We started that, but one of the things in that was the Rachel sad and made fun of Dan about how body odor and things like that. And one of the things that I find that when we first met Dan, he was groomed impeccably. Okay, he was groomed impeccably. He was always one. He was against drugs, he was against alcohol because he said he had a brother who had trouble drinking and everything else. He was like. His appearance was always they used Brittany and him would call each other and trying to coordinate their outfits. I mean, I think you said that people would call them kenn and Barbie. Yeah. So, and we watched Dan's appearance disintegrade, going to a guy who was no longer groom, no longer freshly bathed, and stuff like that. To where And one of the things we found very confusing about that remarks from Rachel was why was she marrying a guy she felt that way about that she was making fun of. That was something that really stuck in our mind that day, sitting around that control. Let's talk about that day. Let's let's talk about that day. So the so the doorbell rang, you opened it up, and in walks in walks Rachel and Noah, her brother, and immediately what we saw was her holding a large bottle of alcohol, which to this day, I mean, I can't even imagine what she was thinking. I mean, she barely knew you guys walking into I mean, we knew her from theater, but not well at all. And to walk into anybody's home carrying a bottle of alcohol, yeah, vodka, a large bottle. Well, you said she was also clearly drinking it. But but when you think back, and I know I'm interrupting when I say this, but I in my mind now I'm thinking back about why did she walk in without alcohol? Was it was she trying to drown sorrows that her fiance had just been arrested for murder or was she trying to portray a cover up to us? We look at me, I am so torn up about this and the whole that it was a prop and she was an active absolutely, and that's the way I'm reading it now. We questioned why she wanted to talk to Brittany for the longest time. We questioned it for years. Why why because it's not like they were friends, they hadn't talked and years why, Well, she found the sex tape. You knew that Dan had taped his relations with Brittany, and he had kept a tape and they had a little like firewall safe in the bedroom and it was right next to the gun by the way that Rachel found and we had no I we we we didn't even know that they were again, that Brittany and Dan were involved. So now knowing now, we understand why it was important that she came. But we were bewildered. And the only thing that it appeared that day is she came down to exchange stories with Brittany about well, when you dated him, did he do this? Did he do this? Uh? Did he do this? How did he respond to this? I think because she found that sex tape and knew that there was an intimacy between Brittany and Dan, I'm supposing that she wanted to know how much you guys knew. She wanted to know to what extent Dan shared with you, her involvement, her role in the murders. That that's what I'm guessing why Noah and she came down there to have that conversation and to see how much they could procure from both of you as to what knowledge, if any, you had. I know that she said, you guys separated, right. She went out on the deck with you and Britain and Noah stayed inside with you. You stayed in the couch. You stayed on the couch because I remember you saying that he commented about your coffee table and the things. And so why don't we start with what happened on the deck, because I know that she told you some things about the night of the murder, of the murder of Julie that ended up being very different than what actually well, like I said, they were comparing things that he had done in the relationship and all that. And then then she mentioned she was tired after the show. She was hanging out playing on the computer in bed, and she said that Dan went in to take a shower. Here's where she said that he went in to take a shower, and he had told her that. This is after the fact that she talked to him after he was arrested. He had told her that he had climbed out the window and that's how he had gone to command through that window. But go ahead, So that always said that night and then and she told you she was in bed with her right with her computer. So then fast forward and I think it was the next day, We're not sure if it was the next year, the day after um Brittany had gotten attacks from Rachel and the text had said everything I told you was a lie, So disregard it. All so complete confusion. Like incidentally, incidentally, she also told you before before you share John what you're going to say, you had told me that Rachel also shared with you that Sam Hair had owed them money. And that is why Dan had Sam's a T M car to Pin number, because Sam gave it to him. Exactly, yes, and clearly that is not even remotely what the case really was. One of the things, let me back up here on is Rachel and her brother Noah came to our house and then Rachel wanted to spend more time speaking girl to girl to Brittany, so they went to Brittany's apartment in Burbank to spend the night. So she spent the night that night with Brittany in her apartment in Burbank. And well, actually part of the pretense of it was her apartment was now a crime scene. They are whatever they were investigating. She was locked out of her apartment. She didn't have any clothes, so she had asked to borrow clothes from Britt. So we were so adamant, we did not want that to happen, but Britt insisted. She said, Mom, Dad, I'll be fine. I had my phone, don't worry. About it. We just didn't have a good feeling, like we really did not have a good feeling at all. We didn't know what our daughter alone with her, Hence why we said, you're not meeting her, she's gonna they're coming here, or you're not meeting them. And then after all that, we use all that energy to have them come. Then Brittie's sides, they're going to go back to Burbank. Anyways, that night, I don't think we slept at all. We were a wreck. The The other thing about that visit that that sticks out in my mind is that when we were separated, you know, the guys and a girl so to speak. When we were separated, No and I were talking, and I still I can picture this vivid in my mind. Him sitting on our sofa talking to me with his pipe very uh, I don't know as I'm a lit pipe, but very yeah, and saying, um, I said to him, because we were we were in shock, you know, And I said to him, I can't believe Dan would ever ever do something like this. Him saying to me, well, you know, Dan and I used to like to play a little what if game, And he said, Dan and I would set on his patio many times, planning how we could do a perfect murder and get away with it. Yeah, what meaning? The perfect murder means you murder someone to get away with it. And I came out of that where I said, I said to Kristen that there's something, he knows something, he knows something, there's something happening here, and he's basically trying to throw it all at Dan, right, But in in a strange way, he sort of implicated himself too, because he said, we played these games together, right, and I have to tell our listeners. There was in the police transcriptions that I read, particularly of his interview with the Costa Mesa police, there was a line in there that the combination of talking to you and knowing the story that you had just told me and now our listeners, besides reading what he said to police, really gave me pause more than anything else, because he had said, because I know you said to me at that point, you decided with your wife that we have to go talk to somebody, We have to go talk to the authority. He's there's clearly this this gentleman no A. Buffett knows way more than he should know at this stage. And It tells me that Dan wasn't alone in the in the planning and execution of these murders. And and I have to say to you that I read Noah telling the police when when he shared with them I co signed that apartment and they were being evicted that Tuesday, the week of the murders. So Noah said to Dan, what are you gonna do about this? Because this eviction is going to screw up my credit and he said Daniel Waznia said to know Ah buffet and he told the coast to Masa police this that Dan told me, as long as I can get four d dollars a day, we're going to be fine. That is the exact amount of money that Dan took out of Sam Hair's account every day, because back then that's all you could get out of the A T M. That was the max for the day. So the fact that Noah is telling the police when interviewed that he had that conversation with Dan and that he suggested the exact number that was being taken out of Sam's account every day, tells me he knew he knew it all right. Well, that was why we contacted the police and said I and I initiated this with Kristen said we better tell somebody in authority about these conversations. And her it was her behavior too. She wasn't behaving like a fiancee who just her whole world was just brown apart. She was drinking and laughing, and they reticulling him and I we both agreed that this is bizarre behavior. We need to go disturbing. It was disturbing. And she lied to you. I mean, did you tell police at the time what she said about Sam har owing the money? And we did, and in fact, we went to the police a second time after our daughter had shared us the text that Rachel head Center saying, hey, everything I told you the other day was a lie. Disregard it. We we had taken a snapshot of that and we had taken that to the police too, and like you need to look at look at this to something going on. Did anything come of? We questioned why nothing? First of all, we are in shock that no one ever asked us to come to talk to us. We weren't supoene, we weren't nothing except right. We kept questioning, like why we we saw this text we met with Rachel Lenoah, why aren't the authorities wanting to talk to us further? Why when they're when they're going to trial, Why isn't anybody talking to us? It has bothered us for years because I really do believe that. And the way it played out was that the d S Office was looking to get Dan and Dan alone at that point. I mean, they they wanted their guy, and they didn't want to muck up the waters with the potential of it being more than one person. They felt like that could possibly a mitigating factor in their pursuit for death. And it seems like there was the sense of turning away from others involved. I mean I asked the CUSTOMSA police most specifically why they didn't pursue charges with Noah, and they said, because he convinced Rachel to do the voice stress test as well, what else is he going to say, and don't do this voice stress test that's going to make him look guilty as hell? Like, why of course he's gonna say do it. And she did it in such a way that she was able, as the detective told me, you know, she actually the tests were inconclusive. She had done it three times, and in his mind, it's basically failing, but it's not admissible in court because of the way in which she did the test. She sort of spoke into the buttons on her shirt and spoken it in a different tone in her voice, and she so she was able to beat it, so to speak. I mean, I do believe that they tried to build enough evidence, and they did build a tremendous amount of evidence, and I give Costa Mesa police considerable credit for that. But the d A's office just kept saying it's circumstantial, It's circumstantial, And as so many attorneys have told me, most cases are built on circumstantial evidence. You rarely have a video of the perpetrator shooting the victim, right, or whatever the crime is, you rarely have any recording of the event, right, So most cases are built on circumstantial But I'll the one time I did sit with him, this is the prosecutor, Matt Murphy. He told me, I don't appreciate or understand O C jurors that you just never know which way it could go, because if someone like Rachel were introduced as a mastermind, because that's what I said to him, I said, after all these interviews I've done, it's my belief that she was the mastermind here, and he basically dismissed me like I was a fool. And that's when he explained to me that he said, you don't appreciate that they could have seen that as a mitigating factor. Well, I said, you had a confession. You had a guy pulling his hair out of his head, saying he enjoyed cutting sam Hair's head off, and and laughing with this insidious laugh. I mean, you had everything you needed to pursue death, right. I just don't understand why we had to frame Rachel in such a way that maybe she helped the police in solving the crime with introducing the evidence in the case. It's just when it when it really wasn't the case. And I just felt like it's unfortunate. And you're you're asking me why they didn't follow up with you guys. I think because again, your conversations with Noah and with Rachel would have would have maybe gone against their narrative. Well, a couple of things here, okay. One is you saying that the voice test being inconclusive. My answer to that is she was an experienced actress, right. The other thing, too, is when we watched videos of the interrogation. We saw Dan is that she walked into the room and first words out of her mouth were, Dan, what did you do? Okay? To me? That was her trying to deflect anything away from herself when I saw that. Interesting secondly is I saw during the interview process at times Dan running his fingers his hands through his hair. That was a sure fire clue knowing Dan that that was a lie. He always did that when he was lying. He had absolutely sign he was lying. That interview we watched, and I don't believe he was telling them the truth through most of it. He was the laugh that he did that was not a real laugh, That was fake. That was that was I'm gonna go for the insanity point. That was an act. And to add to your point, Tim told me, and so did Bob Christilla and a bunch of other people, Kathleen Comfort, a bunch of cousins and friends close to the Wazniak family said Dan never touched a gun in his life. Dan never went shooting with his father like Tim did. Dan had never touched that gun before these murders took place. And it has always been my gut feeling that he he didn't do this alone. I don't think he had it in him to do it alone. But he's taking the fall. He's taking the fall. I don't it's not that I just I don't think I in my gut, I believe that he's taking the fall for other people. Well, he's keeping everyone else out of it. Yeah, I'm we're not saying he didn't do that. He didn't do it. I mean I think he, I just didn't do it alone. Yeah. I believe he was probably the principal actor absolutely, as he always was. Yeah. Yeah, he was always the lead. He was always the lead. You know. The other thing is sort of like I'm flashing back to my My conversation with Noah is about, you know, the ability to be able to do the murders, and they talked about the games and everything else. But another part of that conversation was no one knew exactly where Dan God the the knives and so forth from that he used in the mutilation of the bodies. And he goes, oh, yeah, they come out of a shed, and I knew where that shed was and all that it was the shed behind his house, right H's apartment. And we questioned, well that he didn't talk to him. He was the guy was put in jail. When did Noah get the chance to go through all those details? And that conversation once again for our listeners, happened the Saturday after Dan was arrested. And did you tell the police that yes? And what did they say? Um? I had never been in a police interview before, interviewed by police. Were UM thinking about that interview right now? Is I think they were very careful not to lead me anywhere and that questioning when I when I look back at it now, they would ask They would say, tell me what you saw, tell me what you heard. Now. At times I would I might make a statement and they would say, so we understand, is this what you're saying? That kind of thing, But there was never a they were trying to groom something. I never never got that feeling in that interview with them that they were trying to groom me to say something that they wanted. Never. So, then when you did share with them though, the conversations that you had with Noah, particularly about where the tools came for the dismemberment, where they came from, did you feel like you could ask them is that something he would have known if he could he have learned that from you guys, or you couldn't feel like you could ask them questions. I don't almost. They never gave me a feeling that I couldn't ask them something. It was more of a feeling of tell us what you know, tell us what you're we're listening to you kind of thing. So I never got the feeling that we're trying to h But do you feel like they didn't do anything with it after? Or absolutely? Well? I mean because we were and Kristen and I in fact, Kristin, why don't you you know we've had those conversations. You were questioning why there was no follow up exactly? We we questioned it for years. Why nobody um asked us further questions. I mean, I feel the fact that they came over that day and sat with us people that weren't in our life. Brittany was not friends with Rachel by any means that is alarming. That's very disturbing. And we we let the police know this, Hey, this isn't somebody we've had contact with. They came out of the blue. Were nervous why she wants to talk to us anyway, or why she wanted to talk to Brittany. Anyways, this is alarming to us. It does make you question. I think it's appalling that the woman that was convicted of accessory after the fact that came to our house at the time of the murders and gave us information we went to the police. Nobody has come to us and wanted to ask us and question us further. She told us incriminating facts, and no one has requestioned us, especially since Rachel was giving you information about the case that we're based on lies exactly. And as far as the tells you said, you were watching the interrogation tape once Dan was arrested for accessory after the fact, they taped all of their interviews with him that went through that Wednesday night into Thursday until he finally confessed to the murders. You got to watch those tapes. What did you glean when you saw those tapes? A lot of his tells, Well, yeah, we both we we had come to recognize the telltale signs of a lie, and because you experienced them firsthand with him and um. The one of the things Dan habitually did with and did with us is when you would ask him a question before he ever answered a question, he always go huh, like he didn't hear you, So he's buying time to figure out what he was going to say. And my answer, when you do that, I'd say, ha, hell, pay attention, and then he could answer me. It was about everything, like would you like a doughnut? Like everything. So watching those tapes was the hands through the hair, yes, that was that was always signal signals. He was lying all the time, shaking his knees, always a lie. The tone in his voice he would change. There was I'm very I'm a musician, so I'm all about listening to intonations and tones. And yes, I knew like he would drop his tone his it would just change. The tone would drastically change when he was talking in a lie, telling a lie, and in that interview several times that tone changed. What about when he'd said, no, I'm sorry, that was a lie. That's a lie. But now now I'm gonna tell you the truth. Now I'm gonna tell you the truth. That wasn't the truth. He had a big whopper of a lie that he told you many years prior to the arrest, and it haunts me to this day. I want to know why I was told this lie. I remember exactly where I was. I remember what I was doing. I was in New York and um Brittany had moved back for I think the second time. I was shopping in a store and we were setting up our apartment. A phone rang and she he had called me, and I was with Brett, and he goes, Momma, do you have a minute. I gotta talk, like, yeah, what's up. I could tell something was wrong right away, and he says it's serious. So I remember I kind of pushed my card over to the nile and I kind of just stood there and he said, my brother Mike was killed in an accident, a car accident. And then my first recasid, Oh my gosh, what happened. Oh my gosh, Danne, I'm so sorry what happened. So he said he was drinking and driving, and I said, oh my gosh, I go, I gotta call your mom. Your daddy goes no, no, no, no, no, don't know. He he says, they're they're just not doing well with it, and it's best that you don't call. Just let it be right now. Maybe later, but they're just a mess. I understood that made sense, like give him time and all that that part of it that made sense. So later on, and I don't remember how much after. It could have been a couple of months. I really don't know. I remember we were messaging I think a O L or something and we were talking and um at the time he had asked, oh, I do know what it was? Now? He was when he was doing Nine, that's what, because he had messaged me and says, I really want you and the big guy to come to my show. And Nine was the musical that Dan and Rachel were performing in when these murders took place. And I had said, well, I'm not sure. I get a lot going on. And I think I was direct doing a show at the time or something, and it had come up something about David Newman had come up in conversation, and I remember saying something and I remember him saying, I don't want you to talk to him about it. Nobody knows, and I just I didn't Understdavid Newman was a very close high school friend that they eventually had a falling out over the lies that Dan would tell. They just got tired of all and he said they were silly lies, but they were ridiculous and they got tired of it. And even when Rachel came into their life, they noticed that he was starting to do drugs and they didn't want any part of that. Okay, Well, the other the other part about it, if I recall correctly, is you said, when Dan, when you said you were going to call David, you were going to call Um, Um, Marian, Marian and Dan Daniel or l Errol because you want to express your sympathy and you know, and extend your condolences. He goes, Nope, don't call them, and don't tell any of my friends. That was why he said, don't tell David Newman, because maybe he felt David would go to Mary Anne and say yes. But Kristen, you even said to him at the time, if I remember you saying to me, you said, Dan, why don't you want anybody to know? And he told me we had had a falling out that him and Newman, David Newman, he called him Newman. We knew him as Newman. He was a friend of Brits too. He says, Newman and I had and Matt have had a falling out and I do not want this to be the reason they come back into my life. I want them to come back into my life out of their own will, not out of sympathy for this. So again I'm like, okay, all right, So yeah, every he did, and to this day I don't understand, not that there's ever a necessity to lie ever, but but what prompted him to do that? Because you know what, that bothered me that his brother had died, you know, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, his poor parents, what they had to go through. And I did, by the way, just for the record, his brother is alive and well and living in Missouri. And I didn't find out that he was alive until the day Rachel and Noah came over. It was then as Rachel and Brittany were talking about things, I happened to mention Mike dying, Mike dying, and Rachel goes, his brother is not dead, and I was My mind was blown. So Daniel has two older brothers, the oldest being Mike and then the middle being Tim Wasniang and both are alive right now. I know, years later after I had felt so bad for this brother dying, and you never had the chance to ask Daniel if I was going to ask him anything. That's the one thing that I need to know because it wasn't even connected to anything. That was the reason. Did he want me attention? Did he did he need me do? But wasn't that sort of also a random call out of the blue? I mean he wasn't dating brit anymow No, we had still talked like you know, that relationship what was there. But but it wasn't like he was trying to extort any kind of sympathy cash out of you to pay for a funeral. No, no, a matter of fact, he told us to keep it quiet. Speaking of extort he did going back to the sex tape, what that Rachel found of your daughter and and Daniel in in a sexual having a sexual dliens. He explained the tape by saying that he planned on extorting you for money. I mean, given his relation ship with you guys and your history, that that has to hurt a bit. I don't believe it for a minute. He matter of fact, we've lent him money before. If he needed money, he could have came to us and as he did, he always paid us back. He always did. I don't believe that at all. He was There's no way he was going to extort us for money, So that was for Rachel's benefit absolutely. And as for Rachel Buffett, do you feel that she is ever going to properly be charged in this case and face the consequences of her true role in these murders even if the district attorney decides to never recharge her. This, your port podcast, your book, your research is going to a social media nightmare for her that from here forward, anybody that ever meets her comes in contact, he's going to know who she is, know what she's about, and know her true character, and you're never going to view her the way she wants to be viewed. So once again, I believe the two of you, of all the guests I've had on Sleuth new Dan the best prior to his life with Rachel, and because you had such a close relationship with him, because he looked to both of you as mother and father figures. I wanted to share with you a quote from June Kiblih, who's the mother of Julie, one of Dan's victims, and she spoke in open court on sentencing day, right before the judge was going to impose his death penalty sentence on Daniel and I want to recite this to you because soon after you sent me a text and they're eerily similar. So with that, June spoke and directed this comment to Daniel Wozniak in court on May you took my beautiful, caring daughter's precious life to cover up your heinous crime for a pathetic reason for wanting money for your wedding. For six years and four months, I have sat behind you every time I came to court, watching you come out and smile for the cameras and the audience, enjoying being the center of attention. You show no remorse and no guilt for taking my beautiful, loving daughter away from us. And now I'd like to follow up with the text, Christian, that you had sent to me. I believe it was almost that same day after court convened. The video footage of yesterday shows the real Dan to me, the one I now know. He is so aware of the camera, and it is most likely not even comprehending the moment he's in because he's playing a role to that camera. I don't think he's ever lived an honest moment in his life. He's always aware of others viewing him, and he craves that audience. I now see this with opened eyes. I kind of get chills when I read that. Tell me how you feel that has um It's it was very at that point when I, when I had those open eyes and I had that moment of clarity, I was able to completely let go of the person that I once knew because I realized I didn't know that person ever and I became so where not that I was never not aware, but I was became more more and more aware of the pain that he inflicted on the families and so many other people. And I was able to let go of the past. Understand now that how duped I guess, for lack of a better word, and um, that my views and trust had been completely shattered and broken. Do you think you could ever forgive him? No? And part of that reason is my trust in judgment was shattered us he used it so I and one of the things that sticks in my mind and I'll never forget. I can hear my daughter's voice say this is she's always viewed my husband as her ultimate protector, our family's protector. And when she said this to John a few years back, it sounded like a little girl but she said, Dad, nobody ever gets by you. And the fact that he got by you, Dan was Nat got by you. I don't know if I can ever trust anybody. And I feel the same way. I have a hard time ever making a new friend, because the very first thought I have is how do I know that they are who they are? I honestly will say I don't trust anybody anymore other than my close circle, and I never will again ever. And he took that from me, absolutely, And that's what I can't forgive. What I can forgive him four is that the pain that he has inflicted upon Sam and Julie's parents, family and friends for what was his own selfish gain. And there's no way, there's nothing I can say here today to praise Dan. You know, I think of uh, we we did not come here today to praise Caesar, but to bury him. And that's the way I feel that there's nothing we can say to praise Dan or to shift the blame to anyone else of saying, well, they caused this to Dan. In fact, I get accused of being very black and white. And my feelings on this is regardless of anybody else involved in Dan's life. Dan made the decision to do it to the trigger and he and he is responsible for that decision. And I'm no way am I ever ever going to be able to say to Sam and Julie's family that, well, you've got to understand what happened, he snapped. I'm not buying any of that. I'm saying to them. I'm saying to those families, you have our deepest sympathy. Well, I am sure that they appreciate those words because they are heartfelt and sincere. And I know how hard it was for you both to come in today and relive this, and we really appreciate you doing that and sharing with our listeners whatever insights and knowledge that you had with Dan wisni At firsthand. And thank you, truly, thank you for coming here today. You're welcome. Coming up on Sleuth, Dr Vonda Pelto comes to our studio. Dr Pelto has a unique psychological perspective on the mind of a murderer, given her career history as a shrink to some of the most famous serial killers in our history. Her office was a jail cell in the Los Angeles Men's County Jail, and just a few of her many daily clients included the likes of Charles Manson, the Freeway Killers, and the Hillside Stranglers. Tune in to hear the Good Doctor share her psychoanalysis along with her professional analogies, comparing her former murderous client's behavior with that of what she defines as Daniel Wazniak's behavioral disorder, which manifested once he met Rachel Buffett. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and be sure to leave a rating or review. Follow Sleuth on I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss an episode