The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra strikes of twenty twenty three.

The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra strikes of twenty twenty three.

So I was reminiscing on my early career and the need for community, and at one point in my life I started feeling pulled to give back. I was kind of inspired by Paul Newman. I mean literally, like I opened the fridge and I looked at the spaghetti sauce and Paul was staring back at me, and you know, they had raised hundreds of millions of dollars for charity by doing something that you know, he really loved, which was food and tomato sauce and popcorn and all those things. And then I thought to myself, is there anything that I have that could be branded in this same kind of way to turn it into some kind of force for good? And that's how we came up with the six degrees thing. So my guest today, Penn Badgeley, brought this exact point up. Our celebrities actually being helpful when they leveraged their platforms for social impact. Is a tweet really enough? So lean it. I'm glad you're Hey, everybody, we've got Penn Badgely here with us today. Penn, thank you so much. Okay, so you were early to the podcast. Are you a compulsively early person? Like, No, I am.

So I was reminiscing on my early career and the need for community, and at one point in my life I started feeling pulled to give back. I was kind of inspired by Paul Newman. I mean literally, like I opened the fridge and I looked at the spaghetti sauce and Paul was staring back at me, and you know, they had raised hundreds of millions of dollars for charity by doing something that you know, he really loved, which was food and tomato sauce and popcorn and all those things. And then I thought to myself, is there anything that I have that could be branded in this same kind of way to turn it into some kind of force for good? And that's how we came up with the six degrees thing. So my guest today, Penn Badgeley, brought this exact point up. Our celebrities actually being helpful when they leveraged their platforms for social impact. Is a tweet really enough? So lean it. I'm glad you're Hey, everybody, we've got Penn Badgely here with us today. Penn, thank you so much. Okay, so you were early to the podcast. Are you a compulsively early person? Like, No, I am.

No.

No.

It's funny.

It's funny.

It's funny that you say early. I mean I think I was maybe four to five minutes early. That's early, man, Which is You're right, it is early. No, I mean especially since I had a toddler. You know, I've got a I've got a I've got a two and three month old.

It's funny that you say early. I mean I think I was maybe four to five minutes early. That's early, man, Which is You're right, it is early. No, I mean especially since I had a toddler. You know, I've got a I've got a I've got a two and three month old.

So I would say.

So I would say.

These days, being on time is a is a feat, is a herculean feet and I managed to do it when you know, when I really need to do it. But no, I'm not. I'm definitely not compulsively early. Although I loved the feeling of being early.

These days, being on time is a is a feat, is a herculean feet and I managed to do it when you know, when I really need to do it. But no, I'm not. I'm definitely not compulsively early. Although I loved the feeling of being early.

Oh okay, well there goes my theory out the window. You know, we have a lot of connections, but one of the and this show is kind of about connections with one of the connections I thought about, which probably in my mind related to being early, was that we both correct me if I'm wrong. Started out on the soaps, Yeah, which one? Were you on The Young and the Restless? And you know I was so you young? Were restless or both? I was young. I was definitely young. I was not. I was so young that I couldn't be restless yet. I was. I was thirteen and fourteen years old when I was Oh were you really?

Oh okay, well there goes my theory out the window. You know, we have a lot of connections, but one of the and this show is kind of about connections with one of the connections I thought about, which probably in my mind related to being early, was that we both correct me if I'm wrong. Started out on the soaps, Yeah, which one? Were you on The Young and the Restless? And you know I was so you young? Were restless or both? I was young. I was definitely young. I was not. I was so young that I couldn't be restless yet. I was. I was thirteen and fourteen years old when I was Oh were you really?

Wow?

Wow?

Oh yeah, okay, wow wow. Well I was on My first soap was called Search for Tomorrow, and then the second one that I was on for about a year was Guiding Light. And what I'd like to say about the soap because a lot of people will say to me, you know, it's just such a great training ground, and honestly, for acting, I think it's a terrible training ground. I agree with that. I mean in terms of, like, because all you're doing is trying to make these lousy expositional lines works. But what it is a good training ground for is uh professionalism because you have to be there absolutely, you know, when you're fourteen fifteen years old and you're on which was probably maybe the biggest one that I think maybe for a while. Yeah, so you're not going to show up like, you know, half an hour late, like they'll they'll they'll find they'll find another be another kid the next week, and nobody will care.

Oh yeah, okay, wow wow. Well I was on My first soap was called Search for Tomorrow, and then the second one that I was on for about a year was Guiding Light. And what I'd like to say about the soap because a lot of people will say to me, you know, it's just such a great training ground, and honestly, for acting, I think it's a terrible training ground. I agree with that. I mean in terms of, like, because all you're doing is trying to make these lousy expositional lines works. But what it is a good training ground for is uh professionalism because you have to be there absolutely, you know, when you're fourteen fifteen years old and you're on which was probably maybe the biggest one that I think maybe for a while. Yeah, so you're not going to show up like, you know, half an hour late, like they'll they'll they'll find they'll find another be another kid the next week, and nobody will care.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, profoundly, like you really do feel at that age, especially I just remember being really intimidated by it. It seemed like this giant apparatus, this giant machine and going to CBS Radford or was it the big the big CBS, the big giant CBS where like you know they do.

Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, profoundly, like you really do feel at that age, especially I just remember being really intimidated by it. It seemed like this giant apparatus, this giant machine and going to CBS Radford or was it the big the big CBS, the big giant CBS where like you know they do.

The price is right.

The price is right.

It just it just was like iconic and historical. And I was a short thirteen year old and everybody just seems so tall and mustachioed, and it just it was really nice. I mean, honestly it sticks out at my life. Yeah. Yeah, I don't use it often, but there, I mean, there's there's the who I'm thinking of is I forget his real name, but he played this character named Victor on The Young and the Restless. Anybody who knows it would he just and he's got this iconic mustache, like probably for forty years just had that thing.

It just it just was like iconic and historical. And I was a short thirteen year old and everybody just seems so tall and mustachioed, and it just it was really nice. I mean, honestly it sticks out at my life. Yeah. Yeah, I don't use it often, but there, I mean, there's there's the who I'm thinking of is I forget his real name, but he played this character named Victor on The Young and the Restless. Anybody who knows it would he just and he's got this iconic mustache, like probably for forty years just had that thing.

Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Well listen, you know you've had such a you know, interesting career. So was that your very first gig and do you before that, do you remember the moment where you kind of said, I think this is what I want to do with my life.

Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Well listen, you know you've had such a you know, interesting career. So was that your very first gig and do you before that, do you remember the moment where you kind of said, I think this is what I want to do with my life.

Yeah, very much so. I was probably nine when I realized this is what I want to do. Quote unquote, and that was in theater I was doing. I was doing community theater in Washington State where I lived at that that point. But so I lived, I lived very out in the Styx for a period.

Yeah, very much so. I was probably nine when I realized this is what I want to do. Quote unquote, and that was in theater I was doing. I was doing community theater in Washington State where I lived at that that point. But so I lived, I lived very out in the Styx for a period.

We'd moved from east What was the town? What town was it?

We'd moved from east What was the town? What town was it?

I mean it was outside of Isa, so it did outside of Seattle. It wasn't that far into Seattle, which seemed like such a major, major, and I mean it is a city, it's a huge city, but but it Having never lived in a place like New York at that point, having never lived in a city, it was it was like, you know, this giant metropolis and I lived in in the mountains, skirting it. And because I didn't have a lot of social outlets, theater was that theater became that I and I and I loved the art of it.

I mean it was outside of Isa, so it did outside of Seattle. It wasn't that far into Seattle, which seemed like such a major, major, and I mean it is a city, it's a huge city, but but it Having never lived in a place like New York at that point, having never lived in a city, it was it was like, you know, this giant metropolis and I lived in in the mountains, skirting it. And because I didn't have a lot of social outlets, theater was that theater became that I and I and I loved the art of it.

I did.

I did.

I clearly was drawn to that. But then I think what I what what turned me on was was the the sort of communal aspect, you know, like makes the fact that the fact that you are encountering so many different kinds of people, you know, like there was this there's renowned playhouse there for young people called Seattle Children's Theater that I was a part of. And you know, I just remember like these I was probably eleven, and there were like these fourteen and sixteen year olds writing these like subversive progressive plays. I remember one was called The Barbie's Demise, and you know, it was like it was it was, it was inspiring, and so to me it just seemed like a way to enter into and participate in culture. Just it was art, you know. And then by the time I was in LA a few years later, and of course years then feel like lifetimes when you're that age, you know. I mean, I'm trying to think, like I started working in TV mostly I did some films, and you know, everything was just like, okay, I guess this is how it becomes a profession. But you know, I have to say, because I started so young, that delineation between like pure sort of creative joy and then like what it actually looks like as a job that's always been I don't know, it's just it's just it's just I feel like now in my in my late thirties, I'm starting to recover some of that joy and oh yeah, you know what I mean, One for one for the meal, one for the real. Yeah, that's that is that's that's something I think that they I mean, I think if you are an artist, which you clearly are, then you're gonna have.

I clearly was drawn to that. But then I think what I what what turned me on was was the the sort of communal aspect, you know, like makes the fact that the fact that you are encountering so many different kinds of people, you know, like there was this there's renowned playhouse there for young people called Seattle Children's Theater that I was a part of. And you know, I just remember like these I was probably eleven, and there were like these fourteen and sixteen year olds writing these like subversive progressive plays. I remember one was called The Barbie's Demise, and you know, it was like it was it was, it was inspiring, and so to me it just seemed like a way to enter into and participate in culture. Just it was art, you know. And then by the time I was in LA a few years later, and of course years then feel like lifetimes when you're that age, you know. I mean, I'm trying to think, like I started working in TV mostly I did some films, and you know, everything was just like, okay, I guess this is how it becomes a profession. But you know, I have to say, because I started so young, that delineation between like pure sort of creative joy and then like what it actually looks like as a job that's always been I don't know, it's just it's just it's just I feel like now in my in my late thirties, I'm starting to recover some of that joy and oh yeah, you know what I mean, One for one for the meal, one for the real. Yeah, that's that is that's that's something I think that they I mean, I think if you are an artist, which you clearly are, then you're gonna have.

Some conflicts around it. You know what I mean, because exactly so much of what we do is is you know, the bottom line and trying to listen, trying to make a living. I think we have a kid, it gets it gets doubled down because all of a sudden, I know what you're feeling, was but all of a sudden, I was like, shit, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta step up. This is not just about me anymore, you know, I gotta I gotta provide. In a very I had a very strong kind of like fundamentally male sort of reaction to fatherhood, which was, Okay, here we go. I gotta provide, you know, I get built, build the you know, the brick house, and yeah. So I so I think that having those two things in combination are are tough. And you know, it's interesting you were saying about sets of community. I that was for me one of the two really important things when I first explored theater. Around the same age that that that you did, I was I was growing up in Philadelphia, I was finding any kind of you know, theater stuff that I could do. One was like I loved the closeness of these companies that I was. I wasn't in children's theater. I was like apprenticing at at you know, grown up theaters. That's cool, sweeping the stage and stuff like that. And they were all like, you know, loved each other or they were hated each other, but they had this kind of like bond that I felt like I really wanted to be part of that club. But the other thing for me was being a kid and just being a guy and trying to stay you know, kind of cool all the time and trying to be tough and you know, front with this kind of toughness. When I got into this this place where we were all like, ah, you know, let's let's pretend you're an art choke, you know, or cross and all this other other kind of stuff, I was like, Wow, this is I found a very very uh it was like it was a real release from me as a little boy. Yeah.

Some conflicts around it. You know what I mean, because exactly so much of what we do is is you know, the bottom line and trying to listen, trying to make a living. I think we have a kid, it gets it gets doubled down because all of a sudden, I know what you're feeling, was but all of a sudden, I was like, shit, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta step up. This is not just about me anymore, you know, I gotta I gotta provide. In a very I had a very strong kind of like fundamentally male sort of reaction to fatherhood, which was, Okay, here we go. I gotta provide, you know, I get built, build the you know, the brick house, and yeah. So I so I think that having those two things in combination are are tough. And you know, it's interesting you were saying about sets of community. I that was for me one of the two really important things when I first explored theater. Around the same age that that that you did, I was I was growing up in Philadelphia, I was finding any kind of you know, theater stuff that I could do. One was like I loved the closeness of these companies that I was. I wasn't in children's theater. I was like apprenticing at at you know, grown up theaters. That's cool, sweeping the stage and stuff like that. And they were all like, you know, loved each other or they were hated each other, but they had this kind of like bond that I felt like I really wanted to be part of that club. But the other thing for me was being a kid and just being a guy and trying to stay you know, kind of cool all the time and trying to be tough and you know, front with this kind of toughness. When I got into this this place where we were all like, ah, you know, let's let's pretend you're an art choke, you know, or cross and all this other other kind of stuff, I was like, Wow, this is I found a very very uh it was like it was a real release from me as a little boy. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that that really resonates for me. I mean, you know, it's it's awesome.

Yeah, no, that that really resonates for me. I mean, you know, it's it's awesome.

Man.

Man.

I'm trying to think back, like because yeah, I did I did do plays with full adult casts and stuff too. And then of course you start getting into working in LA. At the age that I did, I was usually working alongside adults, and so I think it was this really interesting mix of like something that was genuinely freeing and then it was really laced with all that other toxic stuff you can't escape and culture anyway too, you know, and and the way. And so for me, because I moved to LA and was working at at at twelves, you know, and so then so by the time I got in young and the restles saw this, I feel like I have two minds of it, Like, man, it's incredible that I've lived a life being able to do what I love. That's that's true. And what can also be true at the same time, is it because I started doing that so young. I've never I can't really recall after ten years old it not feeling like it was somehow, Like you know, when you make something a job, there's then this pressure, you know, I mean years later when you have children. Of course that's a very real thing. But I, you know, needing to prove myself at such a young age, these sorts of things they you know, you start to realize that it's you. I'm not sure how to put words to it, but it's like it really, all I know is that becoming professional and professionally competent and actually financially independent at a very young age has it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a complex thing, you know, and it's sort of left its mark and I and I think, you know, I kind of wish that. I don't wish it, but I know that I would have a different relationship to it if I started a bit later and had you know, I have friends who work now who went to conservatory, they went to school for it, or they even sounds to me like apprenticing a a at a real playhouse at fourteen fifteen, that sounds like it has a purity to it that for me felt like at that age was already being kind of snatched away. And you know, you mentioned the thing about like it's not a great training for an actor to be in a soap opera because you are turning paragraphs of exposition at a rate it's so you know, you have to clip it out, you get two takes. Maybe I think, you know, it's like they are on time and to me that I was so young and impressionable that those were not great lessons to learn about what it means to be an actor.

I'm trying to think back, like because yeah, I did I did do plays with full adult casts and stuff too. And then of course you start getting into working in LA. At the age that I did, I was usually working alongside adults, and so I think it was this really interesting mix of like something that was genuinely freeing and then it was really laced with all that other toxic stuff you can't escape and culture anyway too, you know, and and the way. And so for me, because I moved to LA and was working at at at twelves, you know, and so then so by the time I got in young and the restles saw this, I feel like I have two minds of it, Like, man, it's incredible that I've lived a life being able to do what I love. That's that's true. And what can also be true at the same time, is it because I started doing that so young. I've never I can't really recall after ten years old it not feeling like it was somehow, Like you know, when you make something a job, there's then this pressure, you know, I mean years later when you have children. Of course that's a very real thing. But I, you know, needing to prove myself at such a young age, these sorts of things they you know, you start to realize that it's you. I'm not sure how to put words to it, but it's like it really, all I know is that becoming professional and professionally competent and actually financially independent at a very young age has it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a complex thing, you know, and it's sort of left its mark and I and I think, you know, I kind of wish that. I don't wish it, but I know that I would have a different relationship to it if I started a bit later and had you know, I have friends who work now who went to conservatory, they went to school for it, or they even sounds to me like apprenticing a a at a real playhouse at fourteen fifteen, that sounds like it has a purity to it that for me felt like at that age was already being kind of snatched away. And you know, you mentioned the thing about like it's not a great training for an actor to be in a soap opera because you are turning paragraphs of exposition at a rate it's so you know, you have to clip it out, you get two takes. Maybe I think, you know, it's like they are on time and to me that I was so young and impressionable that those were not great lessons to learn about what it means to be an actor.

You know, well, it certainly hasn't hurt your acting, and it certainly hasn't hurt your your ability to you have a career and to find I mean speaking of you know, doing things that you find creatively satisfying. Uh what about the band and the music? Yeah, I mean are you? Are you? Is the band's how do you pronounce that name? Yeah? So it's just mother. We didn't X.

You know, well, it certainly hasn't hurt your acting, and it certainly hasn't hurt your your ability to you have a career and to find I mean speaking of you know, doing things that you find creatively satisfying. Uh what about the band and the music? Yeah, I mean are you? Are you? Is the band's how do you pronounce that name? Yeah? So it's just mother. We didn't X.

We had to go the X because there are a couple of other mothers who gave us a cease and desist.

We had to go the X because there are a couple of other mothers who gave us a cease and desist.

Okay, all right. I like the spelling. I like this bell. It was a it was a hip thing to do at the time. Yeah, I was. I was just checking it out. It's it's it's it's really cool. I mean, I really like the the fact that, uh, it's a very specific sound, you know what I mean. The songs are all very varied, completely varied, but there's but the band has a recognizable sound. Do you guys play out?

Okay, all right. I like the spelling. I like this bell. It was a it was a hip thing to do at the time. Yeah, I was. I was just checking it out. It's it's it's it's really cool. I mean, I really like the the fact that, uh, it's a very specific sound, you know what I mean. The songs are all very varied, completely varied, but there's but the band has a recognizable sound. Do you guys play out?

And and we did so, so we we we have been able to become friends again. But basically it dissolves like so many bands do because you don't realize what you're getting into is like a marriage with with three or four other guys. All of you have to have some kind of emotional maturity otherwise it's nice.

And and we did so, so we we we have been able to become friends again. But basically it dissolves like so many bands do because you don't realize what you're getting into is like a marriage with with three or four other guys. All of you have to have some kind of emotional maturity otherwise it's nice.

Imagine being in the band with your brother. Right.

Imagine being in the band with your brother. Right.

Well, actually, yeah, that's that's pretty that's pretty huge.

Well, actually, yeah, that's that's pretty that's pretty huge.

That's great act. But so, yeah, I know what you mean. It is like a marriage.

That's great act. But so, yeah, I know what you mean. It is like a marriage.

Yeah, yeah, well I think you know, because like yours continues ours ours ours did not. We we we we made the one record and we made it in like a month, and we toured it for about three and a half years, and we got i'd say, really good.

Yeah, yeah, well I think you know, because like yours continues ours ours ours did not. We we we we made the one record and we made it in like a month, and we toured it for about three and a half years, and we got i'd say, really good.

I can feel really.

I can feel really.

Good about what we did, what we learned, the way we could play a show, and the record that we made. It felt great. But that were you the writer or the writer? No, I mean so I was. I definitely wrote the lyrics and a lot of the melodies, and we you know, we all influenced each other's roles. But there was a there was a our sort of producer and beat maker who would lay the sort of foundation of the songs. And we had two multi instrumentalists who were like the guitar and bassist in keyboard players kind of when we were recording, and then I would come in and I would sing the top line, and you know, and we and we, but we all did it like in two different airbnbs in Chicago and l a uh over the course of a month, and so we just were all together, you know, just doing it constantly.

Good about what we did, what we learned, the way we could play a show, and the record that we made. It felt great. But that were you the writer or the writer? No, I mean so I was. I definitely wrote the lyrics and a lot of the melodies, and we you know, we all influenced each other's roles. But there was a there was a our sort of producer and beat maker who would lay the sort of foundation of the songs. And we had two multi instrumentalists who were like the guitar and bassist in keyboard players kind of when we were recording, and then I would come in and I would sing the top line, and you know, and we and we, but we all did it like in two different airbnbs in Chicago and l a uh over the course of a month, and so we just were all together, you know, just doing it constantly.

And and so so that you you were there were some some live some live instruments, but a lot of beats and a lot of tracks.

And and so so that you you were there were some some live some live instruments, but a lot of beats and a lot of tracks.

And I mean it sounds very it's gotten, its very trive it is, and I mean at the time, it was even before are In, It was like we were making sort of indie electronic R and B before that was even such a popular kind of like I think the Weekend has now made that sound extremely huge and and and a whole genre in and of itself. But at the time I feel like we were we were were wasn't as common, and we were trying to explore something new and because I mean, we made this record back and I was at the end I think we made it and basically the last month of twenty thirteen, and then we toured from like twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen. And yeah, so we made the whole thing was like analog since so everything was very organic in that sense, even though it's electronic. Yep, and uh and then and then the only thing that was completely manufactured where they where there was percussion where the beats.

And I mean it sounds very it's gotten, its very trive it is, and I mean at the time, it was even before are In, It was like we were making sort of indie electronic R and B before that was even such a popular kind of like I think the Weekend has now made that sound extremely huge and and and a whole genre in and of itself. But at the time I feel like we were we were were wasn't as common, and we were trying to explore something new and because I mean, we made this record back and I was at the end I think we made it and basically the last month of twenty thirteen, and then we toured from like twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen. And yeah, so we made the whole thing was like analog since so everything was very organic in that sense, even though it's electronic. Yep, and uh and then and then the only thing that was completely manufactured where they where there was percussion where the beats.

There's a whole whole group of people out there who just heard analogue synth and it just went right for those who know there is such a thing as an organic synth. I mean, it's hard to it's hard to put those two concepts together. You know, You've played so many different kinds of people. I've actually kind of shocked that we've never as far as I know, we've never worked.

There's a whole whole group of people out there who just heard analogue synth and it just went right for those who know there is such a thing as an organic synth. I mean, it's hard to it's hard to put those two concepts together. You know, You've played so many different kinds of people. I've actually kind of shocked that we've never as far as I know, we've never worked.

Together, or we've definitely never worked together. But I remember if we'd met, and I don't think we have.

Together, or we've definitely never worked together. But I remember if we'd met, and I don't think we have.

I don't think so, you know, I don't remember and uh, and so that's always kind of fascinating to me. I love this silly thing on you know, on IMDb, where you can hit the connections tab and we have like a whole you know, I'm sure tons tons and tons of connections, especially seeing as you did you in New York or or or you're still doing it.

I don't think so, you know, I don't remember and uh, and so that's always kind of fascinating to me. I love this silly thing on you know, on IMDb, where you can hit the connections tab and we have like a whole you know, I'm sure tons tons and tons of connections, especially seeing as you did you in New York or or or you're still doing it.

Are you still true. So we uh we just finished the fourth Southon in London.

Are you still true. So we uh we just finished the fourth Southon in London.

Okay, So first off, that's amazing. I mean, nobody It's like when you know, in the old days, if you got three seasons and they canceled you, Oh, that's a terrible tragy. Now it's like a smash three seasons three, not to mention of four seasons. So congratulations, that is that is very very cool. I mean, are you still enjoying it or did you have enjoy it? Yeah?

Okay, So first off, that's amazing. I mean, nobody It's like when you know, in the old days, if you got three seasons and they canceled you, Oh, that's a terrible tragy. Now it's like a smash three seasons three, not to mention of four seasons. So congratulations, that is that is very very cool. I mean, are you still enjoying it or did you have enjoy it? Yeah?

So because the role is so exhausting kind of like spiritually and physically, I would say I do enjoy it, but I enjoy it kind of like you enjoy at some point, like a really difficult test to like running a marathon. You know, it's like you're like, it's it's a it's a it's a lot. I think typically trying to you know, you talk about soap operas and stuff. I mean, soap operas are an interesting template because they they are kind of like what all television structure comes from in a way, and that television has gotten so good is just is just sort of a testament to the evolution of the format. But it is rooted in what we think of as soap operas, whereas film is different. Film is a different act structure. Well the fangers right exactly, and then of course and the acts are actually have always been structured around commercial breaks. So you know, there's like there's this there's this aspect of television that I think even in the absolute best of television, you know you you still have something there of that original template and one of those things that I think is just still the difference between film and TV to me as an actor is huge, where you you have to do it for so much longer. We're in television, and you have to produce so much more in less time, but for longer periods of time. So so therefore the output is that much more of a of a race, of a sprint, but at marathon length. And so for that reason, a lot of shows are ensembles, and you actually don't usually have one person place so centrally in the middle like you do more in a film structure. So so my show is interesting because it's called you. It's about my character and the way he sees everybody else, and so it's so mental and it's so based in his his his narration and his perspective that you know, my participation is like essential to to like every aspect, even in the editing. Yes, they can't. They can't get going with the edit until they have my voiceover. So that's why I made You've got a tremendous amount of voice It's it's really it's so you know, and I don't say this in any way that I'm complaining. It's just I'm a witness to this process. It's like, wow, Okay, So this is what it means to make like a like a you know in the in the realm of something like a prestige television show, you know, with the spirit of like of of some cinema in it, but also with that really intense kind of soapy, frothy pace. And it's just and frankly, by the end of a six month stint, I am so beyond spent. Like it's it's a lot.

So because the role is so exhausting kind of like spiritually and physically, I would say I do enjoy it, but I enjoy it kind of like you enjoy at some point, like a really difficult test to like running a marathon. You know, it's like you're like, it's it's a it's a it's a lot. I think typically trying to you know, you talk about soap operas and stuff. I mean, soap operas are an interesting template because they they are kind of like what all television structure comes from in a way, and that television has gotten so good is just is just sort of a testament to the evolution of the format. But it is rooted in what we think of as soap operas, whereas film is different. Film is a different act structure. Well the fangers right exactly, and then of course and the acts are actually have always been structured around commercial breaks. So you know, there's like there's this there's this aspect of television that I think even in the absolute best of television, you know you you still have something there of that original template and one of those things that I think is just still the difference between film and TV to me as an actor is huge, where you you have to do it for so much longer. We're in television, and you have to produce so much more in less time, but for longer periods of time. So so therefore the output is that much more of a of a race, of a sprint, but at marathon length. And so for that reason, a lot of shows are ensembles, and you actually don't usually have one person place so centrally in the middle like you do more in a film structure. So so my show is interesting because it's called you. It's about my character and the way he sees everybody else, and so it's so mental and it's so based in his his his narration and his perspective that you know, my participation is like essential to to like every aspect, even in the editing. Yes, they can't. They can't get going with the edit until they have my voiceover. So that's why I made You've got a tremendous amount of voice It's it's really it's so you know, and I don't say this in any way that I'm complaining. It's just I'm a witness to this process. It's like, wow, Okay, So this is what it means to make like a like a you know in the in the realm of something like a prestige television show, you know, with the spirit of like of of some cinema in it, but also with that really intense kind of soapy, frothy pace. And it's just and frankly, by the end of a six month stint, I am so beyond spent. Like it's it's a lot.

I believe, hands down, having worked you know, pretty much across the board in terms of the formats, there is nothing harder than being the lead in an hour long television drama. That is the hardest cake that you can.

I believe, hands down, having worked you know, pretty much across the board in terms of the formats, there is nothing harder than being the lead in an hour long television drama. That is the hardest cake that you can.

I kind of agree with you, Yeah, I mean I didn't realize it as much until this show somehow. But I was like, yeah, this is because if.

I kind of agree with you, Yeah, I mean I didn't realize it as much until this show somehow. But I was like, yeah, this is because if.

You're shooting a movie, it can be really really hard, but you know it's going to be over so exactly, you know. But but when you're in an hour long television drama, you're going out there. I didn't realize you were in London, but you're you know, you're going out there your work and you're working the hours along the demands alone. As you said, it's fast and furious. You are gun and trying to make it, trying to every day. Every day you just start.

You're shooting a movie, it can be really really hard, but you know it's going to be over so exactly, you know. But but when you're in an hour long television drama, you're going out there. I didn't realize you were in London, but you're you know, you're going out there your work and you're working the hours along the demands alone. As you said, it's fast and furious. You are gun and trying to make it, trying to every day. Every day you just start.

And I don't know how relatable this is for people listening, but yeah, everyone's.

And I don't know how relatable this is for people listening, but yeah, everyone's.

Like, wow, I'm so sad.

Like, wow, I'm so sad.

I directed an episode this year, and I cool, I finally even more deeply internalized, like you know, the the trick with television that's so hard. It's like you basically start every day behind so that everybody's just trying to make that day that you had twelve hours to complete, and it's just it's such a behemoth enterprise and it's legit. Oh man, it's like and you know it's it is thrilling and exciting for short periods, but but you know, it exhausts everybody who's a part of it, all the crew members, everything.

I directed an episode this year, and I cool, I finally even more deeply internalized, like you know, the the trick with television that's so hard. It's like you basically start every day behind so that everybody's just trying to make that day that you had twelve hours to complete, and it's just it's such a behemoth enterprise and it's legit. Oh man, it's like and you know it's it is thrilling and exciting for short periods, but but you know, it exhausts everybody who's a part of it, all the crew members, everything.

I was talking to an actress recently and this this, this is a question that I want to ask you about the playing a character like this, and playing a character like this over such a long period of time when there are things of a super dark nature that you have to you know, throw yourself into characters that do you know, inexcusable kind of things. What she was saying to me was that she was done with that because she found it to be too traumatic and personally too difficult to deal with. And I've heard, I've heard my wife is an actress, you know, express kind of similar things. For me, I kind of have the opposite reaction, because I find that it's a chance to sort of therapeutically exercise any kind of darkness that I yes, I guess it makes its way into my bones and sometimes it's hard to shake. But I but I find that this is like a it's you know, it's an exorcism of stuff from me. So I'm just wondering if you've if neither of those apply, or if you fall.

I was talking to an actress recently and this this, this is a question that I want to ask you about the playing a character like this, and playing a character like this over such a long period of time when there are things of a super dark nature that you have to you know, throw yourself into characters that do you know, inexcusable kind of things. What she was saying to me was that she was done with that because she found it to be too traumatic and personally too difficult to deal with. And I've heard, I've heard my wife is an actress, you know, express kind of similar things. For me, I kind of have the opposite reaction, because I find that it's a chance to sort of therapeutically exercise any kind of darkness that I yes, I guess it makes its way into my bones and sometimes it's hard to shake. But I but I find that this is like a it's you know, it's an exorcism of stuff from me. So I'm just wondering if you've if neither of those apply, or if you fall.

In the Yeah, I really am somewhere in the middle, tending more towards what you just said, But my experience is a bit maybe of a different perspective.

In the Yeah, I really am somewhere in the middle, tending more towards what you just said, But my experience is a bit maybe of a different perspective.

I think, like.

I think, like.

I think, if you do it long enough, no matter how you view it, it's going to become exhausting, just on a practical level. So I can see Surety being like, you know what, I can't. I can't. I can't. Also, you know, one kind of this dovetails very I think about this a lot because of this specific role and how much how violent he is and how ultimately his violence lands on women. The two people you mentioned to see it that way are women, and interestingly, when they have to do something dark, it often involves violence on them, And when we have to do something dark, we're often the perpetrators of that violence.

I think, if you do it long enough, no matter how you view it, it's going to become exhausting, just on a practical level. So I can see Surety being like, you know what, I can't. I can't. I can't. Also, you know, one kind of this dovetails very I think about this a lot because of this specific role and how much how violent he is and how ultimately his violence lands on women. The two people you mentioned to see it that way are women, and interestingly, when they have to do something dark, it often involves violence on them, And when we have to do something dark, we're often the perpetrators of that violence.

That's a really good point. And I'm not saying a good point.

That's a really good point. And I'm not saying a good point.

I'm not saying that that doesn't hurt us too.

I'm not saying that that doesn't hurt us too.

But it is different. It is different.

But it is different. It is different.

It's it's very different, like it's being a sort of a passive rece receiver of a violence or being an and and I think I think for someone who's in that role, you know, you can't really you can't really tell your nervous system you're acting mm hmm. You can, in fact, in fact, if you're a good actor. A lot of times, the whole point is that you're blurring that line. And I think that's so, you know, I really, to me it becomes and that's where the reason that I don't see it as ultimately too traumatic is because of the way I I take it on as a as a as a profoundly kind of sacred and spiritual thing. You know, as an actor, you are the You're not the player, You're the instrument. You know, you're the You're the moment where the You're the place where the pen meets the page, or where the writer and director meet the audience. You know, you're you're the You're the receptor or sorry, you're the vessel. You're the channel through which everybody's seeing all this stuff. Everybody thinks actors have all this power and agency, and it seems that way because you know, you're what you see. But we're really there's nothing we have control over that we say, think, sorry, not think what we say, what we where we're standing, Everything about the whole thing we don't have any power over except for how we feel and think, you know, like how we respond to it all. And so to me, taking on such intense material, you know, Like I think, I continue, what inspires me is is that you have to ground it, even if sometimes the sort of structure that's on the page just because of what's got to happen can't be grounded totally in the reality of like trauma and violence and human behavior. In that way, I think as an actor, you naturally find that you find the reality of the human experience in this intense stuff. And so to me, if I couldn't keep learning truly and like reflecting on myself and I think hopefully maybe becoming a better person whenever that means or at least like I don't know, some more something you know, And that's to me what feeds me in it.

It's it's very different, like it's being a sort of a passive rece receiver of a violence or being an and and I think I think for someone who's in that role, you know, you can't really you can't really tell your nervous system you're acting mm hmm. You can, in fact, in fact, if you're a good actor. A lot of times, the whole point is that you're blurring that line. And I think that's so, you know, I really, to me it becomes and that's where the reason that I don't see it as ultimately too traumatic is because of the way I I take it on as a as a as a profoundly kind of sacred and spiritual thing. You know, as an actor, you are the You're not the player, You're the instrument. You know, you're the You're the moment where the You're the place where the pen meets the page, or where the writer and director meet the audience. You know, you're you're the You're the receptor or sorry, you're the vessel. You're the channel through which everybody's seeing all this stuff. Everybody thinks actors have all this power and agency, and it seems that way because you know, you're what you see. But we're really there's nothing we have control over that we say, think, sorry, not think what we say, what we where we're standing, Everything about the whole thing we don't have any power over except for how we feel and think, you know, like how we respond to it all. And so to me, taking on such intense material, you know, Like I think, I continue, what inspires me is is that you have to ground it, even if sometimes the sort of structure that's on the page just because of what's got to happen can't be grounded totally in the reality of like trauma and violence and human behavior. In that way, I think as an actor, you naturally find that you find the reality of the human experience in this intense stuff. And so to me, if I couldn't keep learning truly and like reflecting on myself and I think hopefully maybe becoming a better person whenever that means or at least like I don't know, some more something you know, And that's to me what feeds me in it.

Now.

Now.

The flip side is that I am tired of bringing to life a guy that ultimately serves as something as a warning rather than an invitation. You don't want to be this guy, and you know you And so to me, I think what I'm tired of is like exploring the lower nature of humanity. I'm interested in because we get a lot of that now. You know, fifty sixty seventy eight years ago, it wasn't as common to do that, and you know, so you saw somebody like brand Owt. I was like, Wow, what's this dude doing. It's different? And now we've like seen how many kind of explorations like that, And so to me, I'm like, I'm interested in something that's ultimately like rom com.

The flip side is that I am tired of bringing to life a guy that ultimately serves as something as a warning rather than an invitation. You don't want to be this guy, and you know you And so to me, I think what I'm tired of is like exploring the lower nature of humanity. I'm interested in because we get a lot of that now. You know, fifty sixty seventy eight years ago, it wasn't as common to do that, and you know, so you saw somebody like brand Owt. I was like, Wow, what's this dude doing. It's different? And now we've like seen how many kind of explorations like that, And so to me, I'm like, I'm interested in something that's ultimately like rom com.

Yeah, that's it. Well, you know, does it be?

Yeah, that's it. Well, you know, does it be?

I almost want to I like, I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm a part of it, but I want to see a vanguard of like new it's something truly new, like like that there's there's new things of God to come along and new people and new ideas. And to me, I want to see something that's like genuinely like complex and mature but inspiring and hopeful, you know. And I don't think we see a whole lot of all those things together.

I almost want to I like, I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm a part of it, but I want to see a vanguard of like new it's something truly new, like like that there's there's new things of God to come along and new people and new ideas. And to me, I want to see something that's like genuinely like complex and mature but inspiring and hopeful, you know. And I don't think we see a whole lot of all those things together.

You mentioned that you're in your your pod pod Crush studio, So tell me about pot crush. I'm curious about it.

You mentioned that you're in your your pod pod Crush studio, So tell me about pot crush. I'm curious about it.

Yeah, so this is this is maybe part of that, trying to create something that's that's mature and complex but also very sweet and wholesome and hopeful. It's it's a story, I mean, so it's in the name crushed, like feeling crushed and having crushes. These are the first kind of introductions to mature life that we have as people. You know, when you're in middle school in America, but the world over, it's like what eleven to fifteen something like that. These are formative years, you know, and and and and you can have stories that are that are that are that are hilarious and awkward or really traumatic and profound, and you can kind of toggle between those extremes and find all this depth and like sources of identity, and so, you know, that's what we do on the show.

Yeah, so this is this is maybe part of that, trying to create something that's that's mature and complex but also very sweet and wholesome and hopeful. It's it's a story, I mean, so it's in the name crushed, like feeling crushed and having crushes. These are the first kind of introductions to mature life that we have as people. You know, when you're in middle school in America, but the world over, it's like what eleven to fifteen something like that. These are formative years, you know, and and and and you can have stories that are that are that are that are hilarious and awkward or really traumatic and profound, and you can kind of toggle between those extremes and find all this depth and like sources of identity, and so, you know, that's what we do on the show.

I have two co.

I have two co.

Hosts who are former middle school teachers or administrators. And actually my business partner Nowva Kavlan, who's one of the co hosts. She used to work at the un and she one of her focuses was was research in media and the effects of media on young people. And so, like you know, being in the shows I've been a part of, those are some of our first conversations and thinking about you know, just like young people and how they're the future, wanting to inspire them and encourage them, and so it's just one of those conversations turned into in some way this podcast. We have a lot of other things that we're trying to make but this is one of them.

Hosts who are former middle school teachers or administrators. And actually my business partner Nowva Kavlan, who's one of the co hosts. She used to work at the un and she one of her focuses was was research in media and the effects of media on young people. And so, like you know, being in the shows I've been a part of, those are some of our first conversations and thinking about you know, just like young people and how they're the future, wanting to inspire them and encourage them, and so it's just one of those conversations turned into in some way this podcast. We have a lot of other things that we're trying to make but this is one of them.

That's cool, man, that sounds great. Got to I gotta check up before we bring on our guest u because this is applicable you follow the Bahai faith. Yeah, and I just I'm wondering how you came to that, because this will, you know, kind of lead it to our our next guest here. Yeah, it does.

That's cool, man, that sounds great. Got to I gotta check up before we bring on our guest u because this is applicable you follow the Bahai faith. Yeah, and I just I'm wondering how you came to that, because this will, you know, kind of lead it to our our next guest here. Yeah, it does.

So I was what I was probably about twenty eleven, so I was like, maybe, you know, something like ten twelve years ago I first met a Behigh. It is what you could say an independent world religion in the sense that it has a founder and it has a practices that define it as a religion. But a lot about it is I think, redefining a modern conception of religion very much. And I personally came from a very sort of a religious or anti religious background, so I was not looking for anything that I would call religion, and I didn't feel comfortable using the word God. But I was a spiritual seeker something, you know, I mean, acting like that was always my art, was my religion, and in.

So I was what I was probably about twenty eleven, so I was like, maybe, you know, something like ten twelve years ago I first met a Behigh. It is what you could say an independent world religion in the sense that it has a founder and it has a practices that define it as a religion. But a lot about it is I think, redefining a modern conception of religion very much. And I personally came from a very sort of a religious or anti religious background, so I was not looking for anything that I would call religion, and I didn't feel comfortable using the word God. But I was a spiritual seeker something, you know, I mean, acting like that was always my art, was my religion, and in.

Some ways it still is. You know.

Some ways it still is. You know.

It's not that there's a dichotomy there, it's just it's just what is that the human spirit? And how we all believe. I don't care who you are, everybody feels something like there's you know, there's this human spirit, whatever that is, and how do you connect to that, how do you contribute to that? How do you draw from it? For me, it was art. And then there got a point where, like I said, actually I had no connection to that art anymore. I was deep in the machine of television, deep in deep in gossip Girl years and I and I was, frankly, I was in despair. I didn't I didn't I didn't know where it all led. I knew that I had succeeded more than most do. And I didn't have any kind of satisfaction because of it, not a single bit if anything. It made me feel worse as we all hear, you know, about fame and money and all that stuff, and I didn't even even have as much of it as you know, it can it can get, it can really get up there. And I was just being introduced to it, and I was already like not doing too well.

It's not that there's a dichotomy there, it's just it's just what is that the human spirit? And how we all believe. I don't care who you are, everybody feels something like there's you know, there's this human spirit, whatever that is, and how do you connect to that, how do you contribute to that? How do you draw from it? For me, it was art. And then there got a point where, like I said, actually I had no connection to that art anymore. I was deep in the machine of television, deep in deep in gossip Girl years and I and I was, frankly, I was in despair. I didn't I didn't I didn't know where it all led. I knew that I had succeeded more than most do. And I didn't have any kind of satisfaction because of it, not a single bit if anything. It made me feel worse as we all hear, you know, about fame and money and all that stuff, and I didn't even even have as much of it as you know, it can it can get, it can really get up there. And I was just being introduced to it, and I was already like not doing too well.

So I was trying.

So I was trying.

So I was trying to find some unique source of truth, of reality, of wisdom, you know, of like of safety, and security. And again I did not find and seek out the Ba High Faith directly. As a result of that, what I did was I went and stayed with a tribe in Colombia called the Kogi tribe, which is the largest pre Columbian intact civilization to date, and they've got a deep practice and mythology and all this kind of stuff and ritual and ceremonies. So I stayed with this tribe for about two weeks and I happened to meet a Behid there. And what's funny is that he was like the only other early twenties white guy from New York City there, and so I didn't really want to stay in touch with him. He was not the person I was trying to connect with, you know what I mean, right exactly? Sure, And then we just kept running into each other between the years of Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter, because I was very oriented towards and am you know, oriented towards then I would have said the word protest meant a lot to me. Now I do think a bit differently, so I don't just want to reduce it to that, but but that was something I was very interested in. And yeah, so over time. I just every now and then, basically what he what he was doing for me, and what I use the b Hy faith for is to link individual spiritual transformation or whatever you want to call that mental evolution, conscious evolution to that of the evolution of society. You know, how do those two things connect. It's not just personal. It has to contribute to the greater good? Otherwise what are you doing it for? You know? And and he he would just share things and every now and then I'd be like, what are you about to like, what are you talking about? And then eventually, yeah, I just like I became very committed, you know, the few behis I knew. I was like, these people are the most rad people I know. I think I think there's something I got to do, you know. And and of course the actual writings of the founder Baha'lah. I mean, these things are I've never encountered any writings like them. They're they're they're like the deepest poetry you know that speaks to my heart unlike any other. So you know, that's that's that's that's that's that's the essence of it. I guess that's that's it. In a nutshell, Well, that's that's great.

So I was trying to find some unique source of truth, of reality, of wisdom, you know, of like of safety, and security. And again I did not find and seek out the Ba High Faith directly. As a result of that, what I did was I went and stayed with a tribe in Colombia called the Kogi tribe, which is the largest pre Columbian intact civilization to date, and they've got a deep practice and mythology and all this kind of stuff and ritual and ceremonies. So I stayed with this tribe for about two weeks and I happened to meet a Behid there. And what's funny is that he was like the only other early twenties white guy from New York City there, and so I didn't really want to stay in touch with him. He was not the person I was trying to connect with, you know what I mean, right exactly? Sure, And then we just kept running into each other between the years of Occupy Wall Street and Black Lives Matter, because I was very oriented towards and am you know, oriented towards then I would have said the word protest meant a lot to me. Now I do think a bit differently, so I don't just want to reduce it to that, but but that was something I was very interested in. And yeah, so over time. I just every now and then, basically what he what he was doing for me, and what I use the b Hy faith for is to link individual spiritual transformation or whatever you want to call that mental evolution, conscious evolution to that of the evolution of society. You know, how do those two things connect. It's not just personal. It has to contribute to the greater good? Otherwise what are you doing it for? You know? And and he he would just share things and every now and then I'd be like, what are you about to like, what are you talking about? And then eventually, yeah, I just like I became very committed, you know, the few behis I knew. I was like, these people are the most rad people I know. I think I think there's something I got to do, you know. And and of course the actual writings of the founder Baha'lah. I mean, these things are I've never encountered any writings like them. They're they're they're like the deepest poetry you know that speaks to my heart unlike any other. So you know, that's that's that's that's that's that's the essence of it. I guess that's that's it. In a nutshell, Well, that's that's great.

I mean, what a what a fascinating journey to to Columbia and then back to occupy and and meeting this guy. I mean, it's just it's it's and it's not the route that I think somebody would would necessarily uh uh think of in terms of, you know, discovering a higher spiritual plane. But that's that's really fascinating.

I mean, what a what a fascinating journey to to Columbia and then back to occupy and and meeting this guy. I mean, it's just it's it's and it's not the route that I think somebody would would necessarily uh uh think of in terms of, you know, discovering a higher spiritual plane. But that's that's really fascinating.

If you are inspired by today's episode, please join us in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word Bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift empowers us to continue to produce programs that highlight the incredible work of everyday heroes, well also enabling us to provide essential resources to those that need it the most. Once again, text b a co m to seven zero seven zero seven zero or visit six degrees dot org to learn more.

If you are inspired by today's episode, please join us in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word Bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift empowers us to continue to produce programs that highlight the incredible work of everyday heroes, well also enabling us to provide essential resources to those that need it the most. Once again, text b a co m to seven zero seven zero seven zero or visit six degrees dot org to learn more.

The Tahira Justice Center secular organization founded on the principles of the Bahigh faith, and we want to h be part of what we're doing here with this podcast is not only talking to famous and talented people like yourself, but also shedding light on the people behind the scenes who are involved in the organizations that the famous people care about. So I want to bring in from the Tahira Justice Center, Anusha Sinai, who is the director managing it. What is your actual title and thank you for being here with us.

The Tahira Justice Center secular organization founded on the principles of the Bahigh faith, and we want to h be part of what we're doing here with this podcast is not only talking to famous and talented people like yourself, but also shedding light on the people behind the scenes who are involved in the organizations that the famous people care about. So I want to bring in from the Tahira Justice Center, Anusha Sinai, who is the director managing it. What is your actual title and thank you for being here with us.

You welcome. My official title is the managing Attorney for the Greater DC Baltimore Regional Team.

You welcome. My official title is the managing Attorney for the Greater DC Baltimore Regional Team.

Gotcha, Okay, tell me how you got involved and what is the work that the Justice Center is doing currently?

Gotcha, Okay, tell me how you got involved and what is the work that the Justice Center is doing currently?

Or The Taire Justice Center is a national nonprofit organization. It's a bahaih inspired organization whose mission is to deliver holistic services to immigrant survivors of gender based violence. And so we provide not only legal services, but social services, policy advocacy, and our whole plethora of basic needs that our clients may need.

Or The Taire Justice Center is a national nonprofit organization. It's a bahaih inspired organization whose mission is to deliver holistic services to immigrant survivors of gender based violence. And so we provide not only legal services, but social services, policy advocacy, and our whole plethora of basic needs that our clients may need.

That's that's amazing and is ours? Is this? Are does? Are there people of the High Faith all over the world? Yes?

That's that's amazing and is ours? Is this? Are does? Are there people of the High Faith all over the world? Yes?

Yes, although it is an organization inspired by the Bahai Faith and not all the staff members are b High but yes, the Bahai Faith, it's a worldwide religion. You find behind members all over the world. I myself, I'm originally from Italy and I grew up in the Bahiah community in Italy and the main purpose of the Bahai faith is unity of mankind, which may appear simplistic in statement, but it comes through the implementation of a variety of socioeconomic principles that are based in spiritual teachings for the betterment of humanity, and the equality between the genders is one of them, hence the inspiration for the organization.

Yes, although it is an organization inspired by the Bahai Faith and not all the staff members are b High but yes, the Bahai Faith, it's a worldwide religion. You find behind members all over the world. I myself, I'm originally from Italy and I grew up in the Bahiah community in Italy and the main purpose of the Bahai faith is unity of mankind, which may appear simplistic in statement, but it comes through the implementation of a variety of socioeconomic principles that are based in spiritual teachings for the betterment of humanity, and the equality between the genders is one of them, hence the inspiration for the organization.

Well, certainly equality in terms of gender worldwide is a I mean, it's a it's a it's a If it's a big problem here in the States, then you know that it's a huge problem many other places in the world. And and so what what specifically in what specific countries are are are you are you focused on or is it immigrants to the States that are that are mostly focused on.

Well, certainly equality in terms of gender worldwide is a I mean, it's a it's a it's a If it's a big problem here in the States, then you know that it's a huge problem many other places in the world. And and so what what specifically in what specific countries are are are you are you focused on or is it immigrants to the States that are that are mostly focused on.

Yeah, So all our clients are mostly here in the United States. They come from all parts of the world. The majority, if you're looking for specific percentages, the majority of our percentages are from areas in Central America, South America, and Sub Sahara Africa. But we do have a great diverse demographic in terms of geographical coverage.

Yeah, So all our clients are mostly here in the United States. They come from all parts of the world. The majority, if you're looking for specific percentages, the majority of our percentages are from areas in Central America, South America, and Sub Sahara Africa. But we do have a great diverse demographic in terms of geographical coverage.

Now, if if someone comes to the States, what are the main problems that they faced in terms of being immigrant in terms of gender and inequality.

Now, if if someone comes to the States, what are the main problems that they faced in terms of being immigrant in terms of gender and inequality.

So most immigrants, and I will include myself in it, don't usually leave their home country out of volition unless there is something else, you know, ahead for our client. Most of the times, unfortunately, or situations of violence and war zones and forceful departure. And that's that's mostly the experience of the clients that we serve when they come to this country. Apart from the expected barriers such as language systems, understanding exactly where to go and how to go and what to get, even just disparity in terms of food access and so forth, they come in with a great deal of fear towards law enforcement, for example, and then and they have to face a great deal of stereotypes, a great deal of biases, a great deal of prejudice, and oftentimes they find themselves in situation where, out of fear, will not report on instances of islands that may have occurred here in the United States, whether while in detention, in immigration detention, or while in the United States more generally.

So most immigrants, and I will include myself in it, don't usually leave their home country out of volition unless there is something else, you know, ahead for our client. Most of the times, unfortunately, or situations of violence and war zones and forceful departure. And that's that's mostly the experience of the clients that we serve when they come to this country. Apart from the expected barriers such as language systems, understanding exactly where to go and how to go and what to get, even just disparity in terms of food access and so forth, they come in with a great deal of fear towards law enforcement, for example, and then and they have to face a great deal of stereotypes, a great deal of biases, a great deal of prejudice, and oftentimes they find themselves in situation where, out of fear, will not report on instances of islands that may have occurred here in the United States, whether while in detention, in immigration detention, or while in the United States more generally.

You know, Penn, I want to just a pivot to you for a second. And you know, when I hear about this kind of work, I think to myself, there's a lot of things that you could be doing rather than supporting an organization like this, A lot of things that probably would be an easier lift. Well, the easiest lift of all is not having any point of view outside of just trying to get a gig and you know, like doing your work and as you said, going home and being an exhausted Is there something outside of the behind connection which clearly led you to this organization that you just feel is important in terms of getting involved with something outside of this crazy industry that we had.

You know, Penn, I want to just a pivot to you for a second. And you know, when I hear about this kind of work, I think to myself, there's a lot of things that you could be doing rather than supporting an organization like this, A lot of things that probably would be an easier lift. Well, the easiest lift of all is not having any point of view outside of just trying to get a gig and you know, like doing your work and as you said, going home and being an exhausted Is there something outside of the behind connection which clearly led you to this organization that you just feel is important in terms of getting involved with something outside of this crazy industry that we had.

Yeah, I mean, so I'll try and be succinct, and I'll try and start with the small and then go to the big. So I mean, I wouldn't have become so intimately involved with the organization if it wasn't for my friendship with the founder, lay Miller Muro. She you know, we we weren't close friends, but we had met and we had a lot of mutual friends and through.

Yeah, I mean, so I'll try and be succinct, and I'll try and start with the small and then go to the big. So I mean, I wouldn't have become so intimately involved with the organization if it wasn't for my friendship with the founder, lay Miller Muro. She you know, we we weren't close friends, but we had met and we had a lot of mutual friends and through.

The Bahai community. And so so what happened was she.

The Bahai community. And so so what happened was she.

What in the fall of I don't know, twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen, she she asked me if I could help basically amplify the story of one person, one client of theirs, in particular, and yeah, yeah, so I'll try. I mean again, it like it aknew she can help me because there are so many particulars about each person's story that are so connected to these really deep systemic in justice in our country's legal system that you know, again, I'm trying to be brief and connect the big to the small. It's very very confusing sometimes, but basically, like what Anusia said about the ba High Faith, you know, you asked, how much does it extend just beyond that generally? So I mean, if you're thinking about the oneness of humanity as a simple concept but having a really really complex and kind of unimaginable reality as we try to bring it into reality. So like one of the things that I think is represents that spirit is that when you're trying to do something, it can't just really be arbitrary. There has to be some kind of real motivation to do it, you know, like like where does And actually I think in this case, there were two things.

What in the fall of I don't know, twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen, she she asked me if I could help basically amplify the story of one person, one client of theirs, in particular, and yeah, yeah, so I'll try. I mean again, it like it aknew she can help me because there are so many particulars about each person's story that are so connected to these really deep systemic in justice in our country's legal system that you know, again, I'm trying to be brief and connect the big to the small. It's very very confusing sometimes, but basically, like what Anusia said about the ba High Faith, you know, you asked, how much does it extend just beyond that generally? So I mean, if you're thinking about the oneness of humanity as a simple concept but having a really really complex and kind of unimaginable reality as we try to bring it into reality. So like one of the things that I think is represents that spirit is that when you're trying to do something, it can't just really be arbitrary. There has to be some kind of real motivation to do it, you know, like like where does And actually I think in this case, there were two things.

For me.

For me.

It was that I was on a show perpetrating such egregious cases of male violence, you know, usually on women, and then I had this friendship. So that's the big and the small. It's like this big, giant social thing, and then the small is oh, I had a friend, you know, I actually had a friend who did this work, and she was a woman, and she could speak to it and and and she could really bring me into the work like broadly and socially why it's important. And then also I witnessed kind of just firsthand, even through these glimpses, like what it actually looked like on the ground. I mean, I met this woman, Vilma Carrello, who who was in detention in Georgia. She was separated from her daughter. Her daughter was born in the States, so her daughter was a US citizen.

It was that I was on a show perpetrating such egregious cases of male violence, you know, usually on women, and then I had this friendship. So that's the big and the small. It's like this big, giant social thing, and then the small is oh, I had a friend, you know, I actually had a friend who did this work, and she was a woman, and she could speak to it and and and she could really bring me into the work like broadly and socially why it's important. And then also I witnessed kind of just firsthand, even through these glimpses, like what it actually looked like on the ground. I mean, I met this woman, Vilma Carrello, who who was in detention in Georgia. She was separated from her daughter. Her daughter was born in the States, so her daughter was a US citizen.

Where was she speaking?

Where was she speaking?

I want to make sure this is accurate, but Guatemala, Guatemala, ounkin. I'm again, it's been a long time since I since I did the specific work with Velma, So you know, again the yeahs as I as. I maybe stumbled some of the details, but I mean the the the challenge. No, I've only met Vilma once, Like I've only met Vilma once, and then she was behind behind plexiglass. She was she was she was being detained, you know, basically for just coming here. And I would actually let Anusha speak to like this really difficult kind of when people come here in a position like Vilma's, they're immediately placed in a in a in a in a position of impossibility. They have a genuine, very simple personal need for help, and they deserve that because they're human. And and actually, even though there shouldn't be some kind of merit based ranking, if you want to start trying to do that, you know, like some kind of moral ranking system, as Innu she was saying, a lot of times, people who are leaving here are doing something heroic. Sorry, people coming here are doing something heroic. They're leaving a home they don't want to leave, they're being forced. They're often women and children, you know, and they're doing actually the thing that we tell stories about, you know, like they're they're doing they're doing a hero's role. And then, of course, in our in our sort of polarized political system, they get either painted by one side as as villains or you know, unfortunately kind of objectified by the other side trying to sort of use them as talking points and and and the average person trying to like understand the reality here and like do anything meaningful is kind of lost in this polarized, divisive debate. Sure, yeah, you know what I mean and like, and so what does it actually all mean, what does actually look like?