Richard Sutton speaks to Adrian Gore, founder and Group Chief Executive of Discovery, about the ideas, decisions and shifts that have shaped more than three decades of building a business.

Gore talks about growing up in a family where questioning what you were told was encouraged, and why going back to first principles became part of how he thinks. He reflects on the uncertainty of starting Discovery in 1992, backing ideas that initially seemed unconventional, and the behavioural science behind the Vitality model. 

The conversation also moves into leadership and what it takes to create environments where people feel safe to fail, take chances and ultimately outgrow the organisation that helped develop them.

Gore talks about his new book, The Four Principles: Multiply Your Impact in Life and Leadership, and the ideas of disciplined optimism, focused urgency, behaviour and agency.

And in a conversation about South Africa, hope and the temptation to focus only on what is going wrong, he explains why a sense of agency can change how people experience difficult circumstances.

Richard and Adrian also explore the things that cannot be recovered once they're lost: time and reputation.