In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide. If you or someone you know is suicidal in the US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in your community.

In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide. If you or someone you know is suicidal in the US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in your community.

This is shattering the system. I'm Sinari and Glinton.

This is shattering the system. I'm Sinari and Glinton.

This is the notebook that I brought to the trial. So these are all the pages from every single day while I was in the viewing room with family and friends of Jamel and Timothy.

This is the notebook that I brought to the trial. So these are all the pages from every single day while I was in the viewing room with family and friends of Jamel and Timothy.

I recently sat down with Jonathan Hunger. He is one of the executive producers for this show. He attended every day of the trial. He'd never been to a federal court before. Jonathan would sit in the viewer section with the family and friends of the victims. I came along for some of the key moments, but Jonathan went every day and he kept an incredibly meticulous notebook that really gives you a sense of what the trial felt like.

I recently sat down with Jonathan Hunger. He is one of the executive producers for this show. He attended every day of the trial. He'd never been to a federal court before. Jonathan would sit in the viewer section with the family and friends of the victims. I came along for some of the key moments, but Jonathan went every day and he kept an incredibly meticulous notebook that really gives you a sense of what the trial felt like.

So just pages upon pages, so from everything to what was going on, from the jury selection to behind the scenes stuff before the procedings actually started.

So just pages upon pages, so from everything to what was going on, from the jury selection to behind the scenes stuff before the procedings actually started.

Because of COVID nineteen for this trial, the courtroom was divided. There was one room for where the principals gathered, you know, the lawyers, the judge, and ed Buck, and then in a completely different courtroom was the viewing section where spectators could watch the trial on closed circuit television.

Because of COVID nineteen for this trial, the courtroom was divided. There was one room for where the principals gathered, you know, the lawyers, the judge, and ed Buck, and then in a completely different courtroom was the viewing section where spectators could watch the trial on closed circuit television.

Every day was starting with me being in a line of folks that were there not only for the Buck trial, but also any case within that building. It's a huge building downtown, so when you walk up it, it kind of feels almost larger than life, like how you were describing it.

Every day was starting with me being in a line of folks that were there not only for the Buck trial, but also any case within that building. It's a huge building downtown, so when you walk up it, it kind of feels almost larger than life, like how you were describing it.

The Federal Courthouse where ed Buck was stride was completed in twenty sixteen. The building's architects, Skid moll Owens and Meryl envisioned it as a floating cube with curtains of glass and enduring materials like limestone. It's kind of a secular temple to justice. A quick review of where we are in this story. Ed Buck shot up twenty six year old Jammel Moore with a lethal dose of meth in twenty seventeen. Buck wasn't arrested, and eighteen months later another man died the same way. His name was Timothy Dean. Timothy died on January seventh, twenty nineteen. Then a third man escaped Buck's apartment on September eleventh, twenty nineteen. He told a horrifying tale of being bound and injected with a dangerously large dose of meth. Finally, finally, ed Buck was arrested, and eventually he would be brought to trial by federal prosecutors. Today, we'll take a closer look at Edbuck's trial, as well as the defense strategy his lawyers put forth. I wanted to talk to someone who could give a sense of what the trial felt like.

The Federal Courthouse where ed Buck was stride was completed in twenty sixteen. The building's architects, Skid moll Owens and Meryl envisioned it as a floating cube with curtains of glass and enduring materials like limestone. It's kind of a secular temple to justice. A quick review of where we are in this story. Ed Buck shot up twenty six year old Jammel Moore with a lethal dose of meth in twenty seventeen. Buck wasn't arrested, and eighteen months later another man died the same way. His name was Timothy Dean. Timothy died on January seventh, twenty nineteen. Then a third man escaped Buck's apartment on September eleventh, twenty nineteen. He told a horrifying tale of being bound and injected with a dangerously large dose of meth. Finally, finally, ed Buck was arrested, and eventually he would be brought to trial by federal prosecutors. Today, we'll take a closer look at Edbuck's trial, as well as the defense strategy his lawyers put forth. I wanted to talk to someone who could give a sense of what the trial felt like.

So from the very beginning, he was always coming from a place of anger of like, how was this man able to live on the streets and do all this evil? And really, you know, maybe it's now after hearing all the things from the trial that I say so openly evil because there's no other way to describe it. Disgusting, evil, horrific, the things you would never want to either see again or hear about again.

So from the very beginning, he was always coming from a place of anger of like, how was this man able to live on the streets and do all this evil? And really, you know, maybe it's now after hearing all the things from the trial that I say so openly evil because there's no other way to describe it. Disgusting, evil, horrific, the things you would never want to either see again or hear about again.

Finally ed Buck would have his day in court. Letitia Nixon, Jamelmore's mother would now have at least the chance to get a measure of justice for her son. Buck was arrested in late twenty nineteen, and while waiting for his trial, the world would stop because of COVID nineteen and the Black Lives Matter movement would bring renewed scrutiny to this case. This is shattering the system. I'm your host scenario Glinton. In the last episode, we heard about the investigation and what made federal prosecutors take up the ed Buck case. In this episode, we'll hear about the struggle to get Buck into an actual courtroom, and we'll hear from one of Buck's defence lawyers.

Finally ed Buck would have his day in court. Letitia Nixon, Jamelmore's mother would now have at least the chance to get a measure of justice for her son. Buck was arrested in late twenty nineteen, and while waiting for his trial, the world would stop because of COVID nineteen and the Black Lives Matter movement would bring renewed scrutiny to this case. This is shattering the system. I'm your host scenario Glinton. In the last episode, we heard about the investigation and what made federal prosecutors take up the ed Buck case. In this episode, we'll hear about the struggle to get Buck into an actual courtroom, and we'll hear from one of Buck's defence lawyers.

If I was white, no one would have questioned my integrity, no one would have dragged me. And if I won or lost as a lawyer, as a white lawyer, nobody would have had.

If I was white, no one would have questioned my integrity, no one would have dragged me. And if I won or lost as a lawyer, as a white lawyer, nobody would have had.

Any issue with me.

Any issue with me.

The United States versus ed Buck after this break Wow. After he was arrested in September. On October two, twenty nineteen, Nick Hannah, the US attorney, filed an indictment against Buck, charging him with five counts. The delays from COVID make many wonder if ed Buck would ever get a trial. Those the ladies gave prosecutors that much more time to go over evidence and hone their arguments. For many people involved, it was emotional, not just the victims' families, but all those involved. Here's the federal prosecutor, Chelsea Norrel, on the stakes she felt during the trial.

The United States versus ed Buck after this break Wow. After he was arrested in September. On October two, twenty nineteen, Nick Hannah, the US attorney, filed an indictment against Buck, charging him with five counts. The delays from COVID make many wonder if ed Buck would ever get a trial. Those the ladies gave prosecutors that much more time to go over evidence and hone their arguments. For many people involved, it was emotional, not just the victims' families, but all those involved. Here's the federal prosecutor, Chelsea Norrel, on the stakes she felt during the trial.

When we brought our criminal complaint our first day and magistrate court, when Buck was appearing on our charges, one of Jamal Moore's friends came up to me with his urn of ashes and put my hand on it and said, you're fighting for my best friend. And from that moment on, this was just the most important part of my life.

When we brought our criminal complaint our first day and magistrate court, when Buck was appearing on our charges, one of Jamal Moore's friends came up to me with his urn of ashes and put my hand on it and said, you're fighting for my best friend. And from that moment on, this was just the most important part of my life.

Ed Buck wouldn't go on trial until July twenty twenty one, but when he did, the government was ready.

Ed Buck wouldn't go on trial until July twenty twenty one, but when he did, the government was ready.

We tried to come out of the gates swinging.

We tried to come out of the gates swinging.

Chelsea Norrel is a federal prosecutor. She was on the team that tried ed Buck.

Chelsea Norrel is a federal prosecutor. She was on the team that tried ed Buck.

So we tried to make the testimony compelling throughout. And one of our earliest witnesses was a neighbor of Bucks who had asked Buck about all of the men cycling through his apartment who came out looking like they were in a stupor. And the neighbor testified that Buck said they were his social work clients and painted himself as this social worker who was attempting to help the victims and I think that was a good prism through which to then see victims come forward and say, far from getting the help I needed, Buck was creating or amplifying drug addictions in that apartment by monetizing and incentivizing us to take more drugs, by dangling another fifty dollars to inject a bigger dose of methamphetamine.

So we tried to make the testimony compelling throughout. And one of our earliest witnesses was a neighbor of Bucks who had asked Buck about all of the men cycling through his apartment who came out looking like they were in a stupor. And the neighbor testified that Buck said they were his social work clients and painted himself as this social worker who was attempting to help the victims and I think that was a good prism through which to then see victims come forward and say, far from getting the help I needed, Buck was creating or amplifying drug addictions in that apartment by monetizing and incentivizing us to take more drugs, by dangling another fifty dollars to inject a bigger dose of methamphetamine.

Part of the delay in Buck going to trial was the court system essentially had to figure out how we would do court with the onset of the global pandemic. Buck's attorneys would argue he was at a greater risk of COVID and should be returned to his apartment on Laurel Avenue in West Hollywood on bail a rating trial. Nana Giamfi, a lawyer working with Letitia Nixon. Jamel Moore's mother, responded to Buck's attempt to be let out of jail, saying, quote, when these people say they want him on house arrest, I don't know if they're paying attention. That's where he kills people. End quote. Buck was considered an increased flight risk, and a judge would refuse to send Buck back to the apartment. Was Jamel and Timothy died.

Part of the delay in Buck going to trial was the court system essentially had to figure out how we would do court with the onset of the global pandemic. Buck's attorneys would argue he was at a greater risk of COVID and should be returned to his apartment on Laurel Avenue in West Hollywood on bail a rating trial. Nana Giamfi, a lawyer working with Letitia Nixon. Jamel Moore's mother, responded to Buck's attempt to be let out of jail, saying, quote, when these people say they want him on house arrest, I don't know if they're paying attention. That's where he kills people. End quote. Buck was considered an increased flight risk, and a judge would refuse to send Buck back to the apartment. Was Jamel and Timothy died.

Judge Schnyder was very by the book. From the very jump, you knew that she was meaning business.

Judge Schnyder was very by the book. From the very jump, you knew that she was meaning business.

That's Jonathan Unger. He's one of the producers of this podcast.

That's Jonathan Unger. He's one of the producers of this podcast.

She knew immediately right when the trial started, from the jury selection down to the very end, that she was not going to either cut corners or take any bullshit.

She knew immediately right when the trial started, from the jury selection down to the very end, that she was not going to either cut corners or take any bullshit.

The no nonsense judge Jonathan is referring to is Christina and Schneider. She's a senior United States District judge. She was nominated to the federal bench by Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety seven.

The no nonsense judge Jonathan is referring to is Christina and Schneider. She's a senior United States District judge. She was nominated to the federal bench by Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety seven.

Well, the elephant in the room is Christopher Darden, And like I feel like, especially maybe this is the kid from Virginia and me, but knowing that someone of that profile was defending Buck, I think there was just a lot of eyeballs on this case.

Well, the elephant in the room is Christopher Darden, And like I feel like, especially maybe this is the kid from Virginia and me, but knowing that someone of that profile was defending Buck, I think there was just a lot of eyeballs on this case.

Christopher Darden. For those who remember, is that Chris Darden. That Chris Darden had been a prosecutor in the nineties when oj Simpson was on trial for the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. Since that landmark trial, Darden would switch sides and become a highly paid defense lawyer. He would be joined at the defense table by Ludlow be Query. We asked to speak to Darden, but he declined. I did have an extensive conversation with his co counsel, Ludlow be Query. I had to ask him, given all the evidence that we've just heard in this podcast, why would a black lawyer who had been head of the Black Students Association in law school, why would he agree to defend that buck let's take a lesson.

Christopher Darden. For those who remember, is that Chris Darden. That Chris Darden had been a prosecutor in the nineties when oj Simpson was on trial for the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. Since that landmark trial, Darden would switch sides and become a highly paid defense lawyer. He would be joined at the defense table by Ludlow be Query. We asked to speak to Darden, but he declined. I did have an extensive conversation with his co counsel, Ludlow be Query. I had to ask him, given all the evidence that we've just heard in this podcast, why would a black lawyer who had been head of the Black Students Association in law school, why would he agree to defend that buck let's take a lesson.

Well, it was going to be a challenge. It had some very intriguing elements to it. I mean, basically the racial components were intriguing to me, you know, because to me, as a criminal defense lawyer, I've had a lot of cases dealing with people distributing and using methamphetamine, and it didn't seem like something that I couldn't tackle. It seemed pretty straightforward, at least as the allegations went. I do like the challenge of federal court, and I found it fascinating because to me, case wasn't what it was being blown up to be for political purposes, you know, from the media's perspect you know, how the public was viewing it. It was just not what it was being portrayed as it was just to me, meth distribution case, and unfortunately, two of the individuals that mister Buck was partying with died. I didn't see it as, oh, he was doing this because he hates black men, you know.

Well, it was going to be a challenge. It had some very intriguing elements to it. I mean, basically the racial components were intriguing to me, you know, because to me, as a criminal defense lawyer, I've had a lot of cases dealing with people distributing and using methamphetamine, and it didn't seem like something that I couldn't tackle. It seemed pretty straightforward, at least as the allegations went. I do like the challenge of federal court, and I found it fascinating because to me, case wasn't what it was being blown up to be for political purposes, you know, from the media's perspect you know, how the public was viewing it. It was just not what it was being portrayed as it was just to me, meth distribution case, and unfortunately, two of the individuals that mister Buck was partying with died. I didn't see it as, oh, he was doing this because he hates black men, you know.

I didn't.

I didn't.

That's not what I saw in this case, that he hates black men, so he's trying to kill them, which.

That's not what I saw in this case, that he hates black men, so he's trying to kill them, which.

Is what was the public perception.

Is what was the public perception.

So I found that intriguing and I found that a challenge.

So I found that intriguing and I found that a challenge.

You said multiple times that the court of public opinion believed that had Buck murdered Jimmel Moore and timything Dean like that was the court of public opinion. Yeah, so it helped me understand. How do you argue for a client when you understand that the court of public opinion things they're wrong.

You said multiple times that the court of public opinion believed that had Buck murdered Jimmel Moore and timything Dean like that was the court of public opinion. Yeah, so it helped me understand. How do you argue for a client when you understand that the court of public opinion things they're wrong.

You have to ignore it.

You have to ignore it.

You have to ignore the court of public opinion because the court of a public opinion is not due process. The court of public opinion is the very thing that the Constitution of the United States of America protects the individual from.

You have to ignore the court of public opinion because the court of a public opinion is not due process. The court of public opinion is the very thing that the Constitution of the United States of America protects the individual from.

Can you help me understand, then, what was your strategy to defend mister Buck.

Can you help me understand, then, what was your strategy to defend mister Buck.

Our expert found that Jammel was suffering from AIDS if I recall correctly, and Timothy Dean. He had heart disease, he had advanced heart disease, and he's also intoxicated. He at a very high blood alcohol level, and I believe he might have done methamfetmine prior to going to mister Buck's residence, if I recall. So, those were the factors that our expert opined were the main causes of these gentlemen's deaths, not the ingestion, not acute methamphetamine intoxication, and obviously the government's experts disagree.

Our expert found that Jammel was suffering from AIDS if I recall correctly, and Timothy Dean. He had heart disease, he had advanced heart disease, and he's also intoxicated. He at a very high blood alcohol level, and I believe he might have done methamfetmine prior to going to mister Buck's residence, if I recall. So, those were the factors that our expert opined were the main causes of these gentlemen's deaths, not the ingestion, not acute methamphetamine intoxication, and obviously the government's experts disagree.

I want to step away from the idea to talk about the defense. That expert opinion was that the main reason for the death of Jamel was that he was sick with aids and that Timothy died of a heart attack as opposed to being injected with a legal amount of drugs. The visitors area was filled with friends of the victims and you could hear audible groans when the defense took that tack. The strategy was essentially to attack the credibility of the witnesses, men who had already admitted to doing sex work and taking drugs.

I want to step away from the idea to talk about the defense. That expert opinion was that the main reason for the death of Jamel was that he was sick with aids and that Timothy died of a heart attack as opposed to being injected with a legal amount of drugs. The visitors area was filled with friends of the victims and you could hear audible groans when the defense took that tack. The strategy was essentially to attack the credibility of the witnesses, men who had already admitted to doing sex work and taking drugs.

That difference is not that uncommon.

That difference is not that uncommon.

That's April Prayer. She's a defense attorney without ties to the case.

That's April Prayer. She's a defense attorney without ties to the case.

As despicable as it sounds, is basically, the victim wasn't worth you caring about. The victim isn't worth this trial. The victim isn't worth the jurors being concerned about them no longer being on this planet. It's not that uncommon. As despicable and awful as it sounds, it's kind of a form of jury nullification, kind of saying, yeah, if you did it, so what is that such a bad thing? It is such a bad thing if you wipe these low lives off the face of the earth. I don't think it's a very sophisticated defense, but you don't necessarily need your defense to be sophisticated to win.

As despicable as it sounds, is basically, the victim wasn't worth you caring about. The victim isn't worth this trial. The victim isn't worth the jurors being concerned about them no longer being on this planet. It's not that uncommon. As despicable and awful as it sounds, it's kind of a form of jury nullification, kind of saying, yeah, if you did it, so what is that such a bad thing? It is such a bad thing if you wipe these low lives off the face of the earth. I don't think it's a very sophisticated defense, but you don't necessarily need your defense to be sophisticated to win.

The team of dardening Query didn't appear sophisticated, at least not in the courtroom. During the trial. The defense seemed disorganized, to say the least. That didn't keep them, though, from going hard against the witnesses. The prosecutors, like Chelsea Morrel, weren't surprised by the defense strategy. They were surprised by the defense's doggedness, especially on cross examination.

The team of dardening Query didn't appear sophisticated, at least not in the courtroom. During the trial. The defense seemed disorganized, to say the least. That didn't keep them, though, from going hard against the witnesses. The prosecutors, like Chelsea Morrel, weren't surprised by the defense strategy. They were surprised by the defense's doggedness, especially on cross examination.

They cross examined on every aspect of their testimony and presented false choices to the jury, making it seem like everyone was there willingly and that none of the conduct was surreptitious or non consensual, and sort of lost over all of the evidence that we presented showing that there were non consensual sexual encounters, that there were non consensual distributions of drugs, and there were surreptitious distributions of drugs where Buck would drug someone's drink to give them a CNS depressant, so like a klonipin or a GHB, to then reduce their ability to resist injections of methamphetamine. So they kind of they tried to discredit all of those accounts and really paint these as consensual encounters, and tried to paint the victims as wanting their fifteen minutes of fame, As if anyone wants to be famous for being injected by ed drugs, it.

They cross examined on every aspect of their testimony and presented false choices to the jury, making it seem like everyone was there willingly and that none of the conduct was surreptitious or non consensual, and sort of lost over all of the evidence that we presented showing that there were non consensual sexual encounters, that there were non consensual distributions of drugs, and there were surreptitious distributions of drugs where Buck would drug someone's drink to give them a CNS depressant, so like a klonipin or a GHB, to then reduce their ability to resist injections of methamphetamine. So they kind of they tried to discredit all of those accounts and really paint these as consensual encounters, and tried to paint the victims as wanting their fifteen minutes of fame, As if anyone wants to be famous for being injected by ed drugs, it.

Seems cynical, to say the least, that Buck, who was accused of killing two black men, would pick two black lawyers. Darden and Query were criticized by activists and people on the side of the victims. A good amount of the interview was Query and I discussing race and his sensitivity to claims by activists that he was a pawn in ed Buck's game, or that he was an Uncle Tom for defending Buck.

Seems cynical, to say the least, that Buck, who was accused of killing two black men, would pick two black lawyers. Darden and Query were criticized by activists and people on the side of the victims. A good amount of the interview was Query and I discussing race and his sensitivity to claims by activists that he was a pawn in ed Buck's game, or that he was an Uncle Tom for defending Buck.

You know, at some point, as a lawyer, I've got to look at myself as a lawyer and not just as a black lawyer, because then I'm being ghetto wised, you know, as a lawyer, as I am as a black man. If I'm told I can only take certain types of cases, I can only represent certain types of people because I'm black, What does that say about our society? If I was white, no one would have questioned my integrity, no one would have tried to cancel me, no one would have tried to drag me.

You know, at some point, as a lawyer, I've got to look at myself as a lawyer and not just as a black lawyer, because then I'm being ghetto wised, you know, as a lawyer, as I am as a black man. If I'm told I can only take certain types of cases, I can only represent certain types of people because I'm black, What does that say about our society? If I was white, no one would have questioned my integrity, no one would have tried to cancel me, no one would have tried to drag me.

And if I won or lost.

And if I won or lost.

As a white lawyer, nobody would have had any issue with me.

As a white lawyer, nobody would have had any issue with me.

I'm just doing my job.

I'm just doing my job.

But as a black lawyer, there's only certain I can't take ed Buck because the alleged victims are black. So as a black lawyer, that's off limits to me. So that was one of the biggest cases of the year when it was filed twenty nineteen. It was one of the biggest trials of the summer of twenty one. Yet me, as a black lawyer, I should have prevented myself from representing this criminal defendant because I'm black and because of the nature of the allegations. But if I'm white, it's okay. I have a problem with that. I have a problem with that.

But as a black lawyer, there's only certain I can't take ed Buck because the alleged victims are black. So as a black lawyer, that's off limits to me. So that was one of the biggest cases of the year when it was filed twenty nineteen. It was one of the biggest trials of the summer of twenty one. Yet me, as a black lawyer, I should have prevented myself from representing this criminal defendant because I'm black and because of the nature of the allegations. But if I'm white, it's okay. I have a problem with that. I have a problem with that.

This is shattering the system. The True Crime podcast that's about more than crime. We'll hear more from my conversation with low b Query the lawyer Fred Buck after this break. I'm a black man, Yes, I understand, yes, that you have to defend people because you know the criment. I live in West Sullywood. Yes, no one is like this is not this is not a show that's on the side of the police, whatever that means.

This is shattering the system. The True Crime podcast that's about more than crime. We'll hear more from my conversation with low b Query the lawyer Fred Buck after this break. I'm a black man, Yes, I understand, yes, that you have to defend people because you know the criment. I live in West Sullywood. Yes, no one is like this is not this is not a show that's on the side of the police, whatever that means.

Right.

Right.

As a gay black man who followed this case, I was offended by the way that the people who were in his apartment, the people who testified, the ways in which they were cross examined. It seemed for me, from my ears, it seemed like a defense out of a Law and Order episode from the nineties.

As a gay black man who followed this case, I was offended by the way that the people who were in his apartment, the people who testified, the ways in which they were cross examined. It seemed for me, from my ears, it seemed like a defense out of a Law and Order episode from the nineties.

That is I mean, that is it like we don't.

That is I mean, that is it like we don't.

Understand that there's you know that you can get treated for a that most black men have. Hearts of these are high high blood pressure, but they're not also slamming that nfetomin.

Understand that there's you know that you can get treated for a that most black men have. Hearts of these are high high blood pressure, but they're not also slamming that nfetomin.

Well, yes, and I understand your point, but obviously we're not the medical experts. Those were the statements of our expert. Those were the statements of the doctor who examined the autopsy reports and the lab reports, and that was his summation, and that's what he testified. We didn't make that up. That's what he said, and so of course what our expert says is what we're going to go off of.

Well, yes, and I understand your point, but obviously we're not the medical experts. Those were the statements of our expert. Those were the statements of the doctor who examined the autopsy reports and the lab reports, and that was his summation, and that's what he testified. We didn't make that up. That's what he said, and so of course what our expert says is what we're going to go off of.

So that's where that came from. It came from our expert.

So that's where that came from. It came from our expert.

I mean, if you ed Buck was convicted, yes, the jury did not agree.

I mean, if you ed Buck was convicted, yes, the jury did not agree.

If you just didn't agree that your jury did not agree exactly, if you had to.

If you just didn't agree that your jury did not agree exactly, if you had to.

Do it over again, would you have chosen the same strategy?

Do it over again, would you have chosen the same strategy?

You know, I still don't see that there was another strategy, at least in terms of dealing with.

You know, I still don't see that there was another strategy, at least in terms of dealing with.

The cause of death.

The cause of death.

The whole case was really about cause of death because the distribution you have video of them doing what appears to be meth amphetamine. You have you know, officer satisfying that they found meth amphetamine, they found paraphernalia.

The whole case was really about cause of death because the distribution you have video of them doing what appears to be meth amphetamine. You have you know, officer satisfying that they found meth amphetamine, they found paraphernalia.

You know, the distribution charges were really.

You know, the distribution charges were really.

Difficult to defend because you had all this evidence that pretty much spoke to the charges of distribution. What this case really was about, in a nutshell, was about cause of death, because the causing death part was really the most important part of the case in regards to what mister Buck's exposure was. So that's where the fight was, and so we had to get a medical expert. We had to get an expert to examine the reports and examine the medical history and all the things they needed to do and give us an appear on well, what do you think kill these two men? They're really I mean, there's no other strategy than that, at least in regards to that part of the case.

Difficult to defend because you had all this evidence that pretty much spoke to the charges of distribution. What this case really was about, in a nutshell, was about cause of death, because the causing death part was really the most important part of the case in regards to what mister Buck's exposure was. So that's where the fight was, and so we had to get a medical expert. We had to get an expert to examine the reports and examine the medical history and all the things they needed to do and give us an appear on well, what do you think kill these two men? They're really I mean, there's no other strategy than that, at least in regards to that part of the case.

The trial was genuinely emotional. The testimony and the exhibits were truly disturbing and triggering, not just for the friends and family of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean, but for the lawyers and everyone in the courtroom. One potent part of the trial was even for this moment, hearing these men who don't usually have a voice speaking out loud in a federal court. The testimony of victims captivated the courtroom. Here's the prosecutor, Chelsea irrelegant when victim dB testified that.

The trial was genuinely emotional. The testimony and the exhibits were truly disturbing and triggering, not just for the friends and family of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean, but for the lawyers and everyone in the courtroom. One potent part of the trial was even for this moment, hearing these men who don't usually have a voice speaking out loud in a federal court. The testimony of victims captivated the courtroom. Here's the prosecutor, Chelsea irrelegant when victim dB testified that.

He was in Buck's apartment overdosing for the second time after Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean had died. He was lying in the same spot where he knew the men before him had perished, and he felt himself slowly slipping away as well. He talked about hearing his deceased mother call out for him and say his name, and get yourself off the floor, get help, get out of there, or you're going to die, and hearing that account and knowing that that was the jolt that saved his life. To this day, it gives me chills because dB saved himself in that moment.

He was in Buck's apartment overdosing for the second time after Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean had died. He was lying in the same spot where he knew the men before him had perished, and he felt himself slowly slipping away as well. He talked about hearing his deceased mother call out for him and say his name, and get yourself off the floor, get help, get out of there, or you're going to die, and hearing that account and knowing that that was the jolt that saved his life. To this day, it gives me chills because dB saved himself in that moment.

Jonathan Unger, one of our producers, says it was hearing the way the witnesses describe what they went through in ed Buck's apartment that left the lasting impact. He describes the damning details that the court heard from Cody Hoffman, one of the witnesses who testified against that book.

Jonathan Unger, one of our producers, says it was hearing the way the witnesses describe what they went through in ed Buck's apartment that left the lasting impact. He describes the damning details that the court heard from Cody Hoffman, one of the witnesses who testified against that book.

Cody Hoffman, the evidence that was brought up was not only correspondence that he had had with a Buck way back in twenty eighteen and beyond, but also a particular incident where Cody went into detail about how Ed would put gas masks on Cody and when we talk about gas masks, these are masks that you would find really your rituals. I mean, these were devilish type masks, red kind of what you would find at carnivals, but at the same time, in the very dark, again evil way. He went into detail about how it would take a long tube blowing meth smoke down it with one end of the tube and Cody's underwear, and then on the other end of the tube, Ed was smoking the math and essentially shotgunning it into Cody's mouth. He would talk about the gas masks again, the sexual devices that Ed would use, but also the gates of hell. That's how he referred AT's place, particularly the doorway into ed Buck's apartment. And so as these were going on, as you could tell that Cody had a lot of details to his story. When Dardan was cross examining him, he just immediately went into how he was in escort and was trying to nullify anything that Cody had said.

Cody Hoffman, the evidence that was brought up was not only correspondence that he had had with a Buck way back in twenty eighteen and beyond, but also a particular incident where Cody went into detail about how Ed would put gas masks on Cody and when we talk about gas masks, these are masks that you would find really your rituals. I mean, these were devilish type masks, red kind of what you would find at carnivals, but at the same time, in the very dark, again evil way. He went into detail about how it would take a long tube blowing meth smoke down it with one end of the tube and Cody's underwear, and then on the other end of the tube, Ed was smoking the math and essentially shotgunning it into Cody's mouth. He would talk about the gas masks again, the sexual devices that Ed would use, but also the gates of hell. That's how he referred AT's place, particularly the doorway into ed Buck's apartment. And so as these were going on, as you could tell that Cody had a lot of details to his story. When Dardan was cross examining him, he just immediately went into how he was in escort and was trying to nullify anything that Cody had said.

Donata says, listening to the cross examination of witnesses, he kind of felt like he wasn't witnessing a scene from twenty twenty one, but from a whole other century.

Donata says, listening to the cross examination of witnesses, he kind of felt like he wasn't witnessing a scene from twenty twenty one, but from a whole other century.

It felt like an old eighties or nineties episode of a after school special where AIDS and HIV were brought up to the point where it sounded like AIDS was a death sentence, which I don't know about you, but within the queer community, I'm pretty sure we all know that it's not anymore. And it was pretty clear from the jump that Darden and Ludlow were hanging their entire argument on the fact that anyone with AIDS or HIV you could tell that they were sick and.

It felt like an old eighties or nineties episode of a after school special where AIDS and HIV were brought up to the point where it sounded like AIDS was a death sentence, which I don't know about you, but within the queer community, I'm pretty sure we all know that it's not anymore. And it was pretty clear from the jump that Darden and Ludlow were hanging their entire argument on the fact that anyone with AIDS or HIV you could tell that they were sick and.

This is why they died. How did it make you feel sick?

This is why they died. How did it make you feel sick?

To my stomach? And that is the lightest way I could put it. I'm shaking right now even thinking about it, because it felt like we were going back three decades within that trial, and ironically enough, a trial that had a gay man who was doing this to other men as well, And so it just I don't really, I don't really know how to like fully put in towards how it felt, because you know, I have friends who not only have struggled with HIV and AIDS but also are thriving. Now it's so irresponsible.

To my stomach? And that is the lightest way I could put it. I'm shaking right now even thinking about it, because it felt like we were going back three decades within that trial, and ironically enough, a trial that had a gay man who was doing this to other men as well, And so it just I don't really, I don't really know how to like fully put in towards how it felt, because you know, I have friends who not only have struggled with HIV and AIDS but also are thriving. Now it's so irresponsible.

How didn't land in the room?

How didn't land in the room?

Oh, it didn't land. It didn't land One bit if anything, everyone would groan every single time they would bring it up, because they brought it up every single day of the trial.

Oh, it didn't land. It didn't land One bit if anything, everyone would groan every single time they would bring it up, because they brought it up every single day of the trial.

I mean in a case about injecting firstibly injecting people with math and fetamain aids came up every day.

I mean in a case about injecting firstibly injecting people with math and fetamain aids came up every day.

Every HIV, every day.

Every HIV, every day.

Not convicting was not in my.

Not convicting was not in my.

Frame of mind, again, Chelsea Norrell from the US Attorney's Office.

Frame of mind, again, Chelsea Norrell from the US Attorney's Office.

It was not something that I even considered to be an option. The anxiety and the stress of this case was how am I going to get to hearing guilty nine times? That's what kept me up at night. How I was going to hear guilty nine times? How I was going to get that for Letitia Nixon, Jamal Moore's mom, and Joanne Campbell and Joyce Jackson, two of Timothy Dean's sisters, who all of whom supported me tremendously through this case.

It was not something that I even considered to be an option. The anxiety and the stress of this case was how am I going to get to hearing guilty nine times? That's what kept me up at night. How I was going to hear guilty nine times? How I was going to get that for Letitia Nixon, Jamal Moore's mom, and Joanne Campbell and Joyce Jackson, two of Timothy Dean's sisters, who all of whom supported me tremendously through this case.

In total, the trial lasted nine days. The jury was called to the courthouse at nine thirty am on Tuesday, July twenty seventh, twenty twenty one. After nine days of hearing evidence, it was time for the jury to decide. The defense had objected to calling the witnesses. The people who'd been in ed Buck's apartment, has quote a small sample of victims, the implication being there were a lot more of victims. The judge instructed the jury to look at the evidence and the testimony of the witnesses, not the statements or characterizations of the lawyers, and the jurors were sent to deliberate. On the day of the verdict, I joined Jonathan at the courthouse. I remember being in the hallway as the guards moved ed Buck out of the courtroom. He was above us in this brightly lit atrium, and there, pale, stooped over and shuffling was ed Buck. We stood and stared for a moment, and he stared back, absolutely blank look on his face, no acknowledgment, just to stare. As he moved off. We decided to go to the cafeteria to hang out and have some food. Johnathan, my producer, and I were having lunch in the grand courtyard of the Federal Building when at one fifty in the afternoon, word came back that there was a verdict. The entire cafeteria, which was filled with spectators, was collectively shocked. It had happened so very quickly, and as we made our way to the viewing area. Ed Buck sat alone in the courtroom waiting to hear his fate. The deliberation had been lightning quick, and if you include lunch, the jury only deliberated for less than four hours. From the earliest days after Jamel Moore died, you could feel the rage at protests and victims forums. When Timothy Dean was found dead, that rage only amplified. It didn't really subside even when ed Buck was jailed after seven hundred and eighty two days. The rage was present in all nine days of the trial. On July twenty seventh, exactly four years since the death of Jamelle Moore, has witnesses, lawyers, advocates, friends and family, and journalists and Jonathan and I piled into elevators. The rage was still very tangible, and as we filled the visitors area, we could feel something very, very unusual. Finally, there was a feeling of hope. This is shattering the System. On the next episode, the verdict and the fallout of the case against that book and what we can learn about how the media covers cases with black victims. Shattering the System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts. I'm your Host Scenario Glinton follow me at s O N A RI I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Unger, Lindsay Hoffman and Scenari Glinton. That's Me. Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway is our archival producer. Chris Man is our audio engineer. Here sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson and Lisa Pollack. We'll be back next week with another episode of Shattering the System. I'm Snari and Glaton. Thanks for listening.

In total, the trial lasted nine days. The jury was called to the courthouse at nine thirty am on Tuesday, July twenty seventh, twenty twenty one. After nine days of hearing evidence, it was time for the jury to decide. The defense had objected to calling the witnesses. The people who'd been in ed Buck's apartment, has quote a small sample of victims, the implication being there were a lot more of victims. The judge instructed the jury to look at the evidence and the testimony of the witnesses, not the statements or characterizations of the lawyers, and the jurors were sent to deliberate. On the day of the verdict, I joined Jonathan at the courthouse. I remember being in the hallway as the guards moved ed Buck out of the courtroom. He was above us in this brightly lit atrium, and there, pale, stooped over and shuffling was ed Buck. We stood and stared for a moment, and he stared back, absolutely blank look on his face, no acknowledgment, just to stare. As he moved off. We decided to go to the cafeteria to hang out and have some food. Johnathan, my producer, and I were having lunch in the grand courtyard of the Federal Building when at one fifty in the afternoon, word came back that there was a verdict. The entire cafeteria, which was filled with spectators, was collectively shocked. It had happened so very quickly, and as we made our way to the viewing area. Ed Buck sat alone in the courtroom waiting to hear his fate. The deliberation had been lightning quick, and if you include lunch, the jury only deliberated for less than four hours. From the earliest days after Jamel Moore died, you could feel the rage at protests and victims forums. When Timothy Dean was found dead, that rage only amplified. It didn't really subside even when ed Buck was jailed after seven hundred and eighty two days. The rage was present in all nine days of the trial. On July twenty seventh, exactly four years since the death of Jamelle Moore, has witnesses, lawyers, advocates, friends and family, and journalists and Jonathan and I piled into elevators. The rage was still very tangible, and as we filled the visitors area, we could feel something very, very unusual. Finally, there was a feeling of hope. This is shattering the System. On the next episode, the verdict and the fallout of the case against that book and what we can learn about how the media covers cases with black victims. Shattering the System is a production of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts. I'm your Host Scenario Glinton follow me at s O N A RI I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Unger, Lindsay Hoffman and Scenari Glinton. That's Me. Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway is our archival producer. Chris Man is our audio engineer. Here sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod Shaper special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson and Lisa Pollack. We'll be back next week with another episode of Shattering the System. I'm Snari and Glaton. Thanks for listening.