All right, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of Running the Break. I'm Alex Loong, as usual here with my co host c J Toldando had a wonderful interview with Robert Ory on last week's episode that everybody should check out. C J. We've got another special guest today. I'm very excited about this guest. This guest is actually kind of responsible for me spending your responsibly probably for the last twenty five years. So I have I have some words to to share with him. But um, yeah, Thomas O'Grady, Thomas, how are you doing? Man? Hello? Everyone, how are you guys doing today? Good? Good, good Tom. You know we're gonna definitely dive into your story. But you know, I think for people that that don't know you know, you know c J and I always talk about on the show are our favorite nineties jerseys, logos and things of that nature. And this is the person, Tom O'Grady, who is you know, honestly responsible like like CJ mentioned for for us, um, you know, spending all of our disposable income on on jerseys and and other things. Uh. Tom, And so so glad for you to join us. I'm so glad to be here Alex. We've known each other now at three years. We've had a lot of great conversations over over time and uh t J, it's nice to meet you via podcast. Um every conversation we have, I think it's more and more interesting. And as the world turns in the sports, identity and design world, I think it gets more interesting than less interesting. It just seems like there's more uniforms out there than ever, there's more focused on it. Social media has made it such a big deal. In the mid nineties, you know, a beat writer would report on a uniform design, you know, and would have no idea about style or fashion or merchandizing or marketing. And today it seems like everybody's an expert. So it's really changed and it's got this really passionate following. So to be able to talk to two gentlemen who I think really are immersed in the culture, it's super exciting for me. Yeah, I mean today of all days too, when they it was a big news story that the city edition NBA uniforms were revealed, Like could you imagine just like and we'll get into your backstory, but back in the nineties, like going on, you know, reading NBA News and at the top of the list is oh, the new jerseys are being unveiled, Like, well, what's your reaction seeing that, you know, sort of unveiled today. It's just the attention that's become focused on uniform design that wasn't there thirty years ago. Um, you just would design a uniform, make sure everything fit, made sure you got it to retail, make sure the players were happy with it, and uh, the biggest bolt was just to get it on the backup players in times for their first game. That was probably the most driving aspect of the entire uh industry. And uh and you know, uh it was in nearly nineties there was a perfect storm c Jane Alex of technology merging with a bigger focus on sports licensed products. The revenues are exploding at the time, so there was you know, the development of a home white color road uniform and then the introduction of alternate uniforms. It became really a cash cow and over time, champions replica business was the largest part of the NBA properties business. We sold more replica jerseys than anything else, trading cards, you name it. Replica jerseys were were the monster category and so I think over time that fascination with uniform designs and how they relate to the players, and the creativity of alternate uniforms and complete lines. Like you mentioned, the City Edition has brought a lot of focus on the design of uniforms, and uh, I could never have seen that thirty years ago when we designed a uniform. We just we're hoping, we're hoping that the fans didn't revolt. Uh. We hope that the owners are really happy with it, and we hope that David Sturmwin have have me come back the next day at work. So that was pretty much the mandate UM, But we also had a lot of fun because we didn't have so much scrutiny over it. There was not the attention focused on it. So I don't know if you could probably even design a uniform like let's say the Raptors today and not get obliterated on social media. So we had the chance to let things launch, let let fans digest that, let them have their yeses and nose and the polarizing teams like the Pistons. You know, there would be people that loved it and hated it um, but it all worked out. But today, Man, I could not imagine the scrutiny of what the designers at Nike Basketball and the NBA and the sports leagues in general go through when they launched a new uniform. I mean I would be like, well, okay, did we do all the sanity checks here? I don't know if they do focus groups any more. Back in the day, we did focus groups for sanity check to make sure the uniforms weren't offensive to anybody. I don't think that happens today because they moved so fast. You know how many teams introduced the uniform? Study was all thirty And that's crazy. That's crazy. I can't imagine the staffing that they must have about in Beaver's in Oregon and Nike to be able to do all that work. Um, it's incredible. And then forget about just designing a new form. How do you get it manufactured overseas and how do you develop at a retail And how do you get the swing man jersey done? And how do you get the replica jersey done? And how do you get the authentic jerseys done? Times thirty it's inconceivable to me. So it's pretty it's a pretty different world. But I love it. I love watching it, you know. I you know, I know Alex knows I'm somewhat of a critic both good and bad in the industry. But I think it's because I take personal pride and a lot of things we did back in the day, and we worked really hard to set a bar of design integrity, but on the uniforms, on the courts, as we got into the NBA dot com and development website. UH, there was a lot of pride and a lot of competition with our counterparts at the NFL and Major Baseball and then at the NHL. We always wanted out to each other, you know. If I did something at Major uh, at NBA for the Raptors, and an OC Major Baseball came up something like Colorado Rockies, We'd be like, oh, wow, you know, I really love what you'd do with that. And oh She'd say, oh, you know, that was great we did with the Grizzlies or whatever. So we had this friendly competition which pushed us harder to do better work, you know. And UH, and I you know, we I still speak with her today and we talked about, Wow, what a different world it is, and yet we were we were we were combatants on the uniformed design and allies off. You know, we would talk about what designer are you using, what manufactured did you use, or kind of pricing models that you have. So behind the scenes, we had these marionettes moving the industry forward fast because we had to. We we didn't have There were no sports designers walking into our door because there were no such thing as a sports designer back then. So we had to find really good designers were good people, hard workers who were willing to learn about sports. That's really how it worked back then. So, uh, it's it's fascinating how it's changed. But I never get tired of it. You know, I follow the you know, Chris Framer's I I follow Alex's articles, you know, whatever is out there that I can digest. You know, I love it and I have a hard, strong opinion about often. But I think that's because it's one of the areas of design that designers really get a big platform. Graphic designers don't get a very visible platform often. But man, you design a uniform for the Toronto Raptors, you know, and that's gonna launch in front of millions and millions of people around the globe. That's a big visible assignment, you know, and so when you get the chance to do just one team, it's a big deal. But when you do it for thirteen years, you have a lot in the line, your reputations online, and it's it's it's a it's a it's really a great platform for designer to make their way. Everybody knows and sports today. I think most of who Alexander Julian is, and they probably never wore his his teo polo shirts back in the eighties, but they know the Charlotte ornits teal designed by fashion designer Alexander Julian. So there's a great example of a person who had a clothing business who designed this cool uniform for Charlotte and continues to be known today for that and for the North Carolina Reforms and they are guy. So yeah, So it's it's an amazing business and I can't believe how much it continues to grow and expand and the attention that's on it so very cool, very cool at the beginning of it. Yeah, yeah, no, it's incredible, man um And you know, there's so much about the nineties logo landscape that you know, we want to dive in with you so so let's take this quick break and when we come back, let's let's talk about NBA logos in the nineties, and I gets them behind the scenes stories from Tom o grady. All Right, worked back, I'm gonna new break. We're joined by Thomas O'Grady. Thomas, can you remind us what your exact well, and it won't have been some of exactly what you did in the nineties, but what was your official title when joining the NBA back in the nineties. I walked in the door June first as the NBA's first art director. So the turn back in the late eighties and early nineties, art director was very common in advertising agencies, and so I directed art. Basically, I wasn't just designing. I was also managing a lot of the projects. One of the first things I worked on at the NBA was actually the introduction of the sky Box trading cards if you remember those back in the day with the Wild Graphics. Um we signed a couple of big deals with Upper Deck Basketball, with Fleaar Basketball, and they needed somebody who knew how to do printing. And so when I came on board, I wasn't really starting to work on identity work. Yet they were having people throw money at them to produce trading comers, so, uh, you know this is uh you know, I think that after at the end of nineteen ninety one, I think they had a net profit on trading cards alone of about thirty five million dollars for four licenses, Clear Poops, Skybox, and Upper Deck. And so David Stearn said, listen, I want you to build this inhouse creative division. But we got to just chase this for a while. We don't know how long this is gonna last. So I need your help to pull us together. I need help with the art direction, I need help with how we're gonna manufacture these. We worked with a company called Impel Marketing, who actually, back in the time made cigarettes, and so the cigarette business was starting to slide away, so they were looking to get into different businesses and uh and so they started producing training cards and I think they did the NBA hoops card cards and helped with Fleaar produced the cards. So that was my indoctrination into the n b A. I didn't walk in as this hired gun to be a logo and uniform designer by any means, um My first assignment for a logo design actually came through the New York Knicks um a talented marketing person named Pam Harris and I had met in late just because she knew I'd started the NBA, and she said, you know, the Knicks are looking to update their identity, and so that was actually the first project I took on as a designer of uniforms and logos, and I reached out to a mega talented type designer named Michael Dirett, who was internationally known for his magazine covers and all this specifically typography. G New York guy loved the Knicks, and so he helped me design the Knicks logo, which was looking up at the with the triangle behind it. It was kind of meant to be kind of a superhero look. One of the great things about that logo that never came into fruition was originally we had the Empire State Building on the top of it with n Y kind of caressing it over the top, and somehow it got the Time Warner that we planned on doing this. So they wanted to take a royalty in every sale of the next logo because the Empire State Building, which they owned was in the logo, So that would have been probably one of those things where I think maybe if we hadre known the amount of money that was generated as time went out, we might have considered it. But we had a lop off the top of the Empire State Building there and we couldn't use that, so that was the go ahead. Sorry, did that? Did that show up later in the when when they All Star game was in UH in New York? A hybrid of it did show up? Yeah, And but we had the skyline and we had the Madison Square Garden at the front of it, that kind of familiar hockey puck shape. But I always thought that, man, if that would have stuck around. It was beautiful because the idea for the lettering was that you're looking up at the building, so you're you're plopped on you know, thirty fourth and seventh, and you're looking up and there's the Empire State Building next to the Madison Square Garden. It was It was really a beautiful logo. And then Michael helped me design the n y K secondary logo, which was a subway token. So you guys are probably too young to remember putting subway tokens into get onto a subway train. But the but but the n y K was the subway token from New York. So that's how we came up with that idea. The subway dropped fans off right at thirty fourth right by Madison Square Garden, so it was a perfect connection to both the team and the n y piece that all fans love. Everybody loves the n Y Yankees logo or the n Way Mets logo or the n Y Giants helmet, and so the NIXT had their own n y K logo that we created for them, which was really a beautiful logo. I see it today and I'm like, I wish the next we use it more. It's very handsome. So yes, that was actually the first shot at doing it, and I did it for pat Riley uh Dave Checkets, and Ernie Grunfeld when they were at the Next at the time, and they would great to work with, and we got that thing through pretty fast. I had a commissioner looking over my shoulder because he's actually in New York. Uh Stern was a big Knicks fan, so he said, don't screw this one up, you know, as he did with all of them, and we got through it and a little black and a little silver, which is very popular at the time to do built off of all the popular popularity of black and silver, you know, the Raiders and the Ellie King's change in the white Sox cap so that was all happening at the same time in the fashion category of sports apparel. So it worked out really well. It's fit I think in a black uniform and silver uniform in New York with the royal and orange, and I think it was a perfect marriage and I think it really updated it nicely. No that that story is awesome. Do you have before we even go on, because I have so many other ones, you know, we wanted to ask you about, like what were your favorite like just logos growing up for for sports. Well, I'm from Chica, Ago, so I'm spoiled. I think we have really some of the best sports logos in all professional sports back here in Chicago. And uh, I grew up a black Hawk fan, so I was as a little kid. You know, Chicago is a cold city, so we played a lot of outdoor hockey when I was a kid. In my idols for Bobby Hull Stan McKeen at the time, and so when I would be lucky enough to be able to go to a black Hawks game at the old Chicago Stadium, seeing that beautiful red uniform with the Indian head dress and those gorgeous secondary logos with that beautiful striping. It was always something I would just try to draw as a kid, Like I was always just like, oh, I got to try to draw this on a note card or whatever. And uh. And I even think today, like if you're talking about the Ferrari sports uniforms, the black Hawk uniform, that red one, it's almost like it's to me, it's like the Ferrari uniform. It's just so classic, so well again black and red with just a touch of other colors. It's just as handsome as hell, you know. So I think that's where I got caught into it. Bears have a great uniform. The why Socks changed the uniform at the time at nine nineties, so I kind of And even the White Sox when I was a kid, I followed them in the seventies and Dick Allen who had this powder blue white Sox uniform with the red which is one of the most stunning baseball uniforms I've ever seen. With the white sock sanitary holes with the sock there. It's gorgeous, beautiful, and the Cubs are classic. Cubs are the classic. They had, you know, that powdered blue baby blue uniform for a while. And and finally the Bulls. I mean, is there maybe a more classic, better uniform in basketball? And maybe the Bulls you know, red uniform and the white one. I mean, those are just they've never really changed them. Really, They've always had the diamond pattern and his pants and so yeah, so that's where I really got my passion for following it. And then I like some of the wackier stuff. I think I've always had this in my blood. I love the Astros Tequila Sunrise uniform. As a kid, we we had a softball team back here in Chicago, and so we were able to get sand need to make those uniforms for us. So we had, like when I was a kid playing off while we had the Astros uniform, but instead of Astro's that said Hustlers because that was the name of our team. It was really cool. We show up to these games. It's you know, some of these older guys to be like, you guys look like clowns. You know. We were really good. So then we go ahead and we kind of beat their ass, you know, after they transform, you know, and uh, but it was fun and yeah, so that's where I think I really got my u my doctrination at the sports uniform. So I think Chicago has always had some beautiful designs, and you know, it was for me as a kid, it was seven sports. You know, I was you know, I was a good kid, decent student. I never got into trouble because I was too busy playing sports. It was baseball and spring summer, football, fall basketball winter, and hockey winter. So there was never any break. You know, my poor parents bank for all this equipment and all this stuff, but it was always that was always And I come from a family that loves sports and had season tickets for the blockhok games and whatnot. So it's always some thing that spot in my eye. And uh, you know, I never thought that I'd get to do it for a living. You know, that's something you don't dream when you're a kid because you don't even know that people work like that. But uh, that's that's kind of what I really kind of grew up with, is the uniforms of the Chicago teams and uh, and I still think they're great today. I don't think there's a there's a bad one in the bunch. Yeah, I mean so I completely agree, and I was it's I'm kind of fascinated with I think Chicago just with every sport, like you said, is their uniforms are so classic, so why mess with it? And I think, like you know, other NBA teams like the Lakers and the Celtics, they really don't stray too far away from that original classic design. Now, you were the Bulls were obviously the biggest team in sports in the nineties, and you you know, with your wild designs of some of the other teams, when the Bulls were sort of on your plate, were you on the side of like, we gotta leave it alone or we just gotta like keep doing what works. There were there some thoughts in your head of like, hey, if we wanted to take a step or a swing, this is what I would want to do. Where where did you sort of land in the approach of of designer like it tweaks that they could have done in the nineties, CJ. There was never a chance to take a swing. We were we were never even invited to the ballparky. So if you look, if you look at the Chicago Bulls logo, it's basically the same logo from sixty seven. Um. It's also it's a funny, funny side point. It's deals only logo and professional sports that has blood in it. If you look carefully, the Bulls logo, the two horns have blood. You can never do that today, and you would not be able to have a logo with blood on it, I don't think because of the political sensitivity of that, but that logo never changed. We just does. We designed a secondary logo a B with the same orange the B from their lettering and put it on the horn for New Era. New Era wanted a like full secondary logo collection for Caps and I can send it along with you guys later. But Steve shan Wald was our marketing guy at the time. We'd sit at these marketing meetings. He knew me because I was from Chicago. We had a close relationship. But he's like Tom, don't even bother. You know, Jerry doesn't want to touch a thing. Ryan Start was completely happy with what he has. You know, if you watch a game today, there's five Bulls logos on the on the court. They have the one at center court, and they have the ones in the transition areas. You know that that is sanctimonious. And when they started winning championships, that kind of closed the door and doing anything different. We did, however, get to work with them on the black alternate uniform with the red pinch stripes. So if you remember that one around maybe three four, Uh, that was a lot of fun. And uh we call the the capone design because it looked like what they call a zoot suit. It looked like a pinch stripe red a black, a black suit with red pinch stripes, and so Chicago, I can't see straight, you know, so, and it was it was great, it was hot. Ultimately they removed those off the uniform, but I always thought that that was really a slick design too. I really loved it, and they sold a hell out of it. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have pipp In Jordan's and later on Rodman wearing a thing. But it was really a popular design and made all the sense in the world. The Blackhawks had the same thing. They had a black jersey that was the exact flip of the red jersey for quite a while and They sold the hell out of that thing too, from what I understand. So sometimes the answers are pretty easy when it comes to designing uniform because they're right in front of you. You know, you don't have to you know, again illustrated or had a couple of buttons, and there's your new uniform design. So yeah, I bought a bunch of those b hats on you did? I did you did? Because Okay, I always my thought and started to cut you off, Alex. I loved having the bulls look on my hat, but I love baseball caps and I love when it's just a letter. And I was like, I wonder if this existed, and I heard you on another podcast, and I went out and I bought some and they weren't New Era. I think they were either like a car dealership or kind of like locally. I don't know if it's the exact the logo that you came up with, but it just made so much sense to be with the Horns. So I just want to give you a shout for Yeah, no problem. No, that was they created a whole fitted fifty fifty series for New Era, and we did it for about twenty of the thirty teams they just wanted. Some teams didn't have secondary logos, so we just kind of made them up, you know, and we worked with new Ara and you're like, okay, we got through the legal department and they put them on. So you could kind of see that. If you want to New Air and nineties vintage fifty NBA team or whatever, you'll see these kind of wacko hats like the jazz Jay was done away before they did it recently. It was done like in the nineties, so yeah, you know, things are cyclical, but that was it was cool, Like even like the idea of secondary logos back in the early nineties Ree and he didn't exist, like, you know, we didn't. We just started doing those when I started designing uniforms because we knew that some teams had him. And that was my connection back from the black Hawks. So when he started designing primary logos for the teams like the Knicks, I'd be like to Pam Harrison the next what it's gonna be your secondary logo? And She's like, what is the secondary logo? And I'm like, oh, here's I got a picture of the black Hawks. Look at their shoulders. They have seen the tomahawk with the seed. That's the secondary logo. And she's like, oh, that is so cool. We want one of those. And I'm like, well, you can't have a tomahawk, but I'll create a subway token for you, you you know. So yeah, so that was like, there's going back to my roots in the black Hawks. Not only they have a great prest for the Indian head, but the Tomahawks are beautiful logo and that's that's a classic secondary logo. And so that's what we started introducing as part of the bigger identity packages for the team. That's what we call the brand architecture, the primary logo, the secondary logo, the team word mark, maybe a partial logo out of the primary logo, the lettering font, the number on those kind of what consisted of what the team ingredients were for brand success. And that's the same thing today basically, you know, um, you see that universally it's rare that a team will introduce a primary logo without a secondary logo. They'll have some kind of ancillary market which really works well. And and and in basketball, our logos tended to be busier, so they don't make the greatest cat marks, you know, and so when you can get a secondary logo designed like a like a letter for like a baseball cap, it makes more sense. We didn't think like that back in the nineties. We really weren't worrying about selling a lot of caps necessarily. We were just trying to command what the what the logo said. And you know, you noticed that many of the NBA logos have a basketball in them, which is unique to the other three sports, because I think there's two footballs in the NFL. Uh in the thirty two teams. The Jets have a football in their logo and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers have a football in their flag I think, or underneath the thing. And then you look at baseball. Baseball just has I think a few logos they have a baseball in it, and hockey how many pucks do you see in the logos? So David starts mandate to me when I first joined the league was he goes, always continue to think internationally, always think you know internationally, and well, I'd be like, what do you think that means? He goes, well, if we're making a Milwaukee Bucks logo or for making us such a step. So when we did the Bucks logo. We didn't put a basketball in it, and that was I think one of the last times we did not put it in there, because his mandate to us was like, we're gonna open up a NBA star in Melbourne, Australia, and then they might have no idea what the Milwaukee Bucks are, but if they see a basketball within the mark, they'll connected to basketball and they'll connect it to our brand. So that was part of his genius, you know, always kind of like having a a bigger picture than maybe what was in front of us and thinking two or three steps ahead of it. And so that's why you see a lot of basketballs, both in the NBA logos and in the w n B logos over No, that's that's really interesting man. And all this talk obviously about these kind of more iconic teams, like you guys talking about the Bulls, you know, the Knicks must have been such a I don't know, it's like a breath of fresh air for you, you know, when when you talk about going international and the two expansion teams the Raptors and the Grizzlies in ninety and getting a chance to work on those like just having that blank canvas must have been so exciting for you. Oh don't so when you talk about exposure of rebranding a team as a designer, that's that's high level enough stuff. But when you start from an empty sketch loosely paper and sketch band and you get to start there, that's is you know, I have one wonderful son. That's I'm fortunate to have one child, eighteen year old hockey player, great kid, And there's almost that's Designing a logo for expansion team is almost as exciting when you see your kid born as when you get to do the expansion. And I didn't have to have you Have you told your son that hes he's coming. He's upstairs and coming back from he came from back from college today. He loves basketball. I've got him today. A couple lays about Chris Paul um uh new you know the retro Fun's uniform and his first name is Paul. So he's gonna get his Paul uniform and uh and he's like, Dad, I wanted to get the rent I want to get the vintage design. I'm like, okay, I'll get it for you. Don't worry about it, you know. But no, it's you're really giving birth to a franchise. You really are. Your blood and guts and sweat in your DNA are basically all over that team because you're the one that's kind of steering it through all of it's, you know, all of the foxholes and getting around some of the naysayers and trying to get it through legal. The design parts, the fun part. It's like taking you know, it's like a running back who's gonna get hit, you know, like an Earl Campbell, Like you're gonna have to get in there, hold the ball and you're gonna get pounded. But if you keep running hard, you know you'll get there. And that was always the fun of Toronto and Vancouver again, so much of this comes down to having a great owner. So when you have an owner like John Vito Jr. At the Raptors or Arthur Griffith said Vancouver, who trust the designers, your your your way down the fairway. When they say you're the experts, you guys kind of tell us what you think and when they allow you to do what you do best, usually the results are pretty outstanding. And I think that's one of the reasons both Vancouver and UH Toronto turned out as well as they did. We didn't have any history to worry about, you know, like we had a fresh breath, a fresh start for both teams and both owners. As you know, Alex and c J had such a different vision of what they wanted in the project. So um. To be able to do that jeez in a one year period was exhilarating. And to finally see it launch and have fans happy with it overall, um, and to see the success and the passion of it today, the vintage uh you know appeal. Uh, it's so rewarding, it really is. You know, it's like seeing your kid grow up, like my son would be a good kid. Like it's a good boy, you know, like he's got good grades, is going to you know Kelly school, business, he's doing really great, you know. And it's like the same thing when you see Mitchell and ness selling those things like they're going out of style twenty five years later. You know, I've I've talked to Pitto of a couple of times and he goes, you know, he's say, hey, we did good. Right. I go, You're damn right, we did good. You know, talk to Mitchell and Nessa's retail. He goes, yeah, I wish I had and sold the team, so fair but anyway, I digressed. But yeah, there is a lot of pride in it. And boy, that's another keyword. It's like I'm designing. If you guys are in Toronto, I'm designing for you guys. You know I'm designing. I'm one of the fans. I'm sitting next to you with the Raptors game. I'd better put my heart and soul into it and throw everything in the kitchen sink. As far as effort and making sure we explored every option, uh, you know that we could coming up with, you know, like the Cornets did with a unique color pale like we did for Toronto and a little bit for Vancouver with the turquoise and stuff. So it's just trying to put um the team in a place where they have so much to worry about. They have to draft the team, they have to find an arena, they have to get fans, have to sell tickets. They probably don't want to be worrying about, you know, you know, issues with their identity. And so when those launched, I think they were very successful and uh and uh and you know, it's a shame that Vancouver is still not playing in Vancouver, but ultimately it's nice how Toronto's evolved their brand and whatever. But I do miss the dinosaur on on the court more often than I see him. But whatever, that's just that's just time and how things change. But yes, it's uh, there's nothing like it, Alex. It's the best feeling in the world to be able to create a new identity for nothing and be part of it and being the kind of the mad scientists behind the scenes putting it together. Uh, and then having the confidence from everybody else to do it right. You know. That's the other cool thing you know here, that's that's that's a big money ticket and uh, and when you do it right, it feels good. So yeah, Well, so one last question before we take another break, Like your imprint in the nineties with the Raptors, Grizzlies Sonics, like that was an obvious like an aesthetic that obviously you know Mitchell and ness and vintage is it's all that look right? And so what was that equation and like how did you figure that out? Where you're like it's almost I think I've seen you describe it as superhero esque, like there's a lot of like, um, you see the multidimensions of the designs, Like how could you describe I think, like the storytelling the design and like the integration of the colors. Um was there like a formula that you guys figured out and you're like, oh, I gotta go to this team or we're gonna approach this team's design with that formula. Yeah, we just what I think what ended up happening, and we talked about a little bit more. But you kind of had the classics that you couldn't touch, the untouchables, right, the Bulls and the Lakers and the Celtics, and to a little lesser degree like the Spurs, right, like they have been that same look from the A, B. A days and somewhat the Knicks. Those are kind of like, although we updated the Knicks, that was still the royal and orange and it looked different, but it kind of looked the same, the same lettering. And then you had a more open palette for the rest of the teams because they didn't have this long history of success and winning and all of famers and whatnot. So um, there was such a demand made by like teams like when the Suns relaunched their identity. Um. I love teams, I love marketing guys, I love the owners. But there's certainly a a me too attitude that sometimes permeates through the teams. When they see one team do it well, they want to be the next team to do out do that, And so they come back to us and we're like, oh, we saw what you did with the Sons. Can you do something like that for you know, the you know, the Cocks, or can you do something like that for you know, the Raptors or whatever? And it becomes almost like contagious. It becomes, you know, everybody's kind of chasing the same a little bit over the top design. Um, and that's okay because the team like the Raptors or the Grizzlies have no history too, you know, mess with and teams have had, you know, checkered paths like the Hawks or some of those teams why don't have a long history of winning and have changed uniforms very often. This was a chance that just they wanted to kind of be another one of those teams with the suble made of cool uniforms, you know, And sometimes I think the marketing guys to enjoyed it. Because it shows that they can kind of stretch their marketing muscles on so instead of doing an art one color type on the uniform with one color numbers, and you know, they could be the Pistons, you know. So you you saw a team that wanted to just go off or go off the grid and come up with something very different than the red and blue you know bad boys. Look. Uh, that's what they asked for. Uh, and that's what we worked on together, and that's what they got. So I wasn't really the driver of any of these things where I'm like, you have to do this, you know, you've got to change it, because you guys would go fast in there, you're gonna fall behind. It's teams seeing what other teams are doing with those kind of more provocative identities, saying we'd like one of those ourselves, you know. And so that's really how the momentum of the nineties happened. Once we knocked down the Knicks, I mean, once we knocked on the Knicks, and then we kind of knocked on the Bucks, and then we knocked on the Sun and then we did the Sacramento Kings and then the Minnesota Timberwolves. You know, like the Kitch designed kept coming more and more popular, and the Sonics. The Sonics are a team like if you look at their identity, if you look at that Kelly Green and Freddie Brown, Arab Jackson Bunk right, the seventies designed that they won the championship with, it looks like they missed two generations of changes. Right. It's like the coke canial was like in the seventies and that was like, you're finally updating the coke can. That design is so high school, you know that, It's like they missed an update or two, you know. So when it was finally time for them to say, hey, we want to make a change, it looks so revolutionary because there wasn't any steps in between. We didn't kind of slowly take off that banding, and we just didn't slowly take off that kind of eldetica curve curve lettering. We just went from like twenty miles an hour, it's ten miles an hour, you know, just like visually. And so that's why sometimes I think fans would revolt because it's been so long for so many years where teams didn't update their identity or make a movie change like a cop and Buller can that when we finally came out with something that fit in the mid nineties, it was like shocking and you could see, you know, people like, you know, what is this, or like, oh my god, the Rockets got forbid. You know, you looked at that seventies. That's like Rudy tom Jonovitch designed right from the seventies, and all of a sudden, haven't changed, haven't changed, and it's all of a sudden blast off. Here comes the Rockets ninety six after unfortunately after winning two championships, which was its own story. But yeah, so someone makes was allowing us to do it. Technology was giving us the chance to do things that were very different, and hey, it was happening in the NHL, right Like we're seeing a lot of cool, wacky things in the nineties with the NHL baseball to a lesser degree, but the NFL was doing a couple of things that they tried to do with the Jaguars and a couple other teams. So yeah, everybody was trying to be the next cool thing, you know, and some teams went in both feet, you know, and that's kind of how it happened. It wasn't like we were just trying to shock the world. We were just knocking them down one at a time. Yeah. No, that's that's so interesting. Man. We still got a couple of more things to ask you to him. So so let's let's take this break and then we come back more with Tom O'Grady. Yeah, and we're back here with Toma Grady. Tom. Now, I mentioned earlier today they announced the new City Edition jerseys, and it must be tough. I mean, like, let's be honest, must be tough seeing sort of uh you know, seeing a new designs and just it's a new error. Right. Um, So what's like, what are some of the things that are exciting you about what you're seeing? Um, Nike Basketball and the NBA and the team's doing with these new jerseys today. I think what's happening with Nike and the NBA is that I think when you get into a an agreement with with a partner, you know they have certain financial goals and mandates they have to meet. So to say we're gonna stay with the same Boston Celtics uniform that we've had for twenty five years probably makes it pretty difficult to drive a lot more revenue. You know, and you're just changing numbers off the green uniform or whatever. So I think a lot of this is trying to create, uh, you know, extensions for retail opportunities. Right, So does the team need to change and add a new uniform every season to be competitive or whatever? Absolutely not. It's a chance to I would think, you know, stretch their kind of creative you know, wings a little bit and see what they can put out there that fans are going to react to. And you've had some huge wins. You've had huge wins like the Miami Vice looked right, So that's slowly become one of the most popular uniforms maybe in the last fifty years in the n B A right, um, And there are a few others like the Valley design that the Suns did, right, Like, you see some that stand out and to me, like just to be kind of a snob, it's one of those things, right, say, oh, I would have design something like that, you know, back in the nineties. It would probably fit in there somewhere because of the brightness of the colors, the energy put into the design, the fact that it looks great on the core, you know, it kind of checks all the boxes. I know there's a lot of talk about this in season tournament that they want to consider, so there would be a platform where like, I don't want it to look like the bulls for those tournaments. I want something completely different. I want I don't want to have to tuck in my jerseys. I want untucked jerseys for the tournament. God darn it, you know, like Marquette's uniforms or the balls. You know, like let's just and super light, maybe a little bit looser fitting, you know, and just let them you know, like like you're playing in a gym like a practice. Look, you know, super lightweight, super whispy. You know that's really cool. When the guys are running, it's kind of flowing behind them. Everything has gotten so form fitted today too, you know, like it's like they look so tight there. I see some of these sidelights of the nineties and I have to laugh because these shorts are too long and the jerseys are too loose. But there's a certain kind of like badass in this to it. You know that they were just hitting there, they were just and the Urban markets has copied it right out the window. You know. It's just like everybody with extra long shorts. You know, it looks kind of tacky today, but man, when we were doing it back then, that was that was what it was all about, you know. So I think that one of the things, you know, I know we're getting near our time here, but I think that the anviation look too soccer, especially eural soccer, and what's done with some of the patterns on their uniforms these days, which if you really focus on it, like um like Umbro for the World Cup and Adidas World World Couple killer designs, killer patterns within the designs, and the NBA doesn't really do much with patterns within the jersey fronts. You know, it's it's either a pinstripe or you know whatever. But man, if you look at some of these soccer soccer kits and what they do with the with the patterns, not the crazy ones, but the subtle, like tonal things, I think those things are just so sweet, you know. And I don't think the NBA has done enough with those, you know, I think there could be a lot learned there. If I was brought back today, the first thing I would do with my design team, you know, I'd be like, we're getting our bus on a plane, we're going over to Europe. Let's go visit Adidas there, Let's go Vista Puma. What are they doing with the materials, What are they doing the fabrics, What are they doing with the patterns within the fabric? You know? Uh, because they have a big entrance, they have sponsors all over the front of their uniforms, where the NBA has got beautiful team marks in front of them. We're still very lucky that we haven't destroyed our NBA uniforms. Yeah, small patch, but we still have a ton of real estate to do some cool stuff on our jerseys, you know, and shorts. So we should find things that are gonna move it the bar forward. And I think that would be one thing that the NBA could do, and maybe even bringing a soccer kit designer two into beaver thing and work with the with the basketball guys to come up with some cool things that would get a little bit less ridiculous for the city Edison. Stuff like I want a subtle map of the city of Chicago on the front of my you know, red red Bulls jersey that you could barely see, but it's in there, you know, and it's done in a certain provocative way. You know, and uh, stuff like that, you know, to really kind of push the envelope without making it two nineties, because I don't think we can go back to that anymore. I don't think I don't think there's a place for something that over the top anymore. I don't think fans would react to it positively. I guess before you go to I think one last thing we wanted to ask you too. You know, you talk about obviously working in the nineties with the NBA and taking so many kind of big swings creatively. Um, like, what advice do you have for just creatives listening to this, you know, who have big ideas and then want to take a big swing while working with big corporations, Like, like, what's the advice that you would give them? Always do something that's probably not going to get approved as one of your options, and sometimes you might have to do that on your own time because you have real goals to make. So uh, this is an old, old marketing term. But when you go to Seis, for instance, there's a they've always had a pattern to their paint and I don't even serious is almost out of business, but they've always had a good, better, best paint selection, So a good gallon of paint cost you five ninety nine and better gallon paints eight ninety nine, and the signature brand would be and then new one that's not any of those. Do one that's like the what if concept, you know, and make sure that when you're working in this environment, that you're always saying, Okay, we can play the regular teas, but we should also play the long tease once in a while, play the black teas, and really go for the gusts, don't. And I think that's part of it, just challenging yourself thinking out of the box. There are so many wonderful concept designers today on the Internet, all these guys doing stuff and be hands and dribble and all these school like concept things, but usually it's just the derivative of the same thing that's already there. They're just kind of replicating what's been done. But what I love to see is when somebody does something and like, WHOA, what the hell am I looking at there? And it could be so insanely you know, un undoable because it's just not ectical, but it's like the juices are flowing, people are thinking about how to do it. Differently. My point, like the untucked idea, you know, like is it always going to be that way? You know, the the soccer players don't tuck in their jerseys, you know, so why does the NBA players do? You know, so I've always thought about how to do something like that or the hem on thing. You know, like imagine a Bulls jersey that it's got the diamonds on the side of the uniform instead of the pants. You know, that just flows out of the design um and do something like that. Maybe you know, operations guys that say yeah, because they're gonna be holding each other and it wouldn't be practical. But those are kind of things that I'm always thinking about. And then other things just you know, beyond the uniform, how does it extend to the court. You know, those are the things that we didn't talk about in this conversation. But what is the court design? You know, we did some wacky things with the Raptors courts right when they first launched, and you know, dinosaur marks running across the front of it. But if the if the uniform is the costume, then the courts the stage, right and so that core should be held in very highest team too, because it just it holds the brand together. So I think that that's something designers should always be looking at, you know. And then how does that uniform relate to the shooting shirt? You know, So it's always just you know, a uniform is just it's the most important part of the identity by fire, because it's what the players wear. But what else is there, you know, what else can be done to challenge conventionality. One of my biggest drills, you know, in my history and my careers the w n B A launch and how we did you know, uniforms for the w n B A from nowhere? So what was what are those going to look like? And I look at those thirty years later, I'm like, those are still pretty fresh. I know they were the dazzle that they were kind of shiny and all that stuff, you know, But that's just what we were doing at the time, you know. So I think that's all part of it. Uh And it's you know, and look for other look for inspiration off the court, you know, go to them, you know, you know, people still go to the mall. Go to the mall, see what's happening in fashion and see what you know, Polo sports doing or you know, Ralph Laurns doing and some of those guys and see how you might be able to bring some of their design treatment's back into a basketball uniform. You know, Alexander Julian figured it out. That might be a good cue as well. Well, how how did you, uh, speaking of w n B A stuff, how did you react or did you see when uh Jade and Ivy he wore his mom's shocked jersey to the arena and then I'm not sure if they changed if then the game jerseys were the Teal Pistons. But that had been a cool, kind of full circumle moment. It really was, you know, and uh, you know, you have your you have your passion projects, and the w n B A was a passion project. Imagine doing the Grizzlies and Raptors and David Stern walking your offer and say, oh, by the way, uh, you know, we're gonna start at w n B A and we got eight teams, we have no names, we have no we don't know where we're playing, we don't know what the color of the ball is. You know, get to work, you know, Oh thanks, but again that's a chance to start with nothing. And make something. And so when you think about the magnitude of this w n B a kind of startup, and what what it's meant to the women's sports, I'm so proud of that, you know, even today, to have played a small role in that. So yeah, So it's it's exciting. It's exciting times. It's amazing that people focus on this. It's amazing that people buy these jerseys thirty years later. And I don't know if it's nostalgia. I don't know, if it's just it looks like you're getting more money for your design than you are. I don't know, but it's it's it's been fun. It's been fun to see the kind of the return to this and uh and to talk about it, to tell stories because these things will ultimately disappear, so for people to know how it happens is very cool to me forever a fan of your of your work, and you continue to trail blaze game plan Creative is is the name of your agencies? That correct? That's correct. We just landed a new big project. I'm and brag your real work with the US the US Polo Association Polo not Ralph Red Polo Polo polo, so they want to look at they want us to look at the brand from jump Start, like how can we redo the polo players uniforms and how can we do colors for the helmets and how could we brand as more as the professional sport. So we were just down in Wellington, Florida working on it and it's gonna be one of the coolest projects I think I'm ever gonna work on because a lot like a startup, there's no there's no roadmap, you know. So we're super excited about it and it's it's a little different than what we normally would do. So that's that's my little plug for go watch a polo match. You'd be shocked to how much pool, how cool it is. It really is cool. I watch whenever whenever that happen. Who have the courses all painted different colors? Yeah? Okay, but things for joining running the break? Yeah, that that was Tom Grady. I've been c J Toldanno, Alex Wong subscribe rate review. Shout out to our producers, Uh Grace, Peter and Kurt, thank you so much. We'll see you guys next time.