You're listening to Comedy Central. Alright, let me wait, test y'all got me oh about I've been still in WiFi from this building and think they finally had a good year and a half run the office, the office where I do this, the internet jack in the wall, that ship still active. So I've just been rolling with it and you're pointing into the wall. Let's let's hurry up before they cut the inter it off again. Now hiring, the Boston Celtics probably gonna be hiring for a number of positions over the next couple of months. Their internal investigation continues into inappropriate consensual relationships involving teams, staff, head coach email who don't oh, brother Doka panly didn't slinging dick around the Celtics facility like it would because currently on a year long suspension from the teams. Brothers Doka, but more importantly, me alone might be hiring for the position of boyfriend. Fellas it's time to get your hair cutting, your head shots. I don't think that's how it's gonna work. You gotta give her time to heal and leave a lovlub. About three years from now, it's gonna be time to shoot those shot at me alone. Man, let me go fush your hair start. Oh my gosh, my name is Roy, this is my job for No, there's a lot going on with this Celtic stuff. We probably have to talk to Ride about that. They'll take Rod. I'm back all of the chaos. The whole story is built for Rod, built for Rod. Funked up that that story dropped the week after we did about banking co workers. Do you think more people would listen? You know what I'm saying. We gave it to him? What is it? What is it you need to understand? J g Is it? Because I don't understand everything about the story either. Oh I have so many questions, but I need to understand inappropriate consensual? What help me? It's I think it's very clear cut. If you work at a job and your employer has said nobody can suck, nobody can suck. So there's a morality clause or something. Poss believe. But they that just made company policy, like, hey, if you work here, y'all can be fucking. Y'all wanna fun one y'all gotta quit and it don't matter if it's consensual. But there are some companies where you go and you say, Hi, I'm a I'm also interested in be and we want to let you know about this relationship. Obviously he didn't do that, but it happens. Yeah, but this is no different than last week when Third was talking about how some companies incur Hey, we won't ya in fact, while let us know, but put your name on the wall. Was married okay in the process, ain't it. I'm just saying, like, oh, most places, most places. To me, the whole thing that's weird is that even if y'all had the clause, and even if he did something wrong, why are you just suspending him for a year, Like, go ahead and let the dude fly. Like I don't understand. Y'all to the NBA Finals and you took the Golden State Warriors six games, and low key you would have had him, but Steph Curry was just literally ungotten during that series. That's true. Do you fire a coach that got you within two games of an NBA championship or do you suspend him? Or does that coach have a good contract And there's some other clause in there that he's already protecting himself with. See what you're saying, Third, if this was a Sacramento King, jam funk out of here you're going. If it was the Wizards, I can promise you he'd have been on the first thing s been going. They got people of the Wizards for less. But on the same tip with j G saying has a lot of merit, like maybe this guy was sharp enough to have easily the most ironclad contract in NBA history that they can't fire me if I make if I think with my dick, I can't get fired basically, And maybe he had that. Yeah, yeah, as a close he knows his problems. We'll we'll we'll chat with Rod and a little bit about that. But first, UM, it's important that we have balanced on this show. And last week we was talking a lot about that ignorant but Naked's exaction that be going on. Thank you for the reaction emails and social as well. It's important that we had a little balanced this week. And Um, this week I want to talk about reading and ship. We're going to talk about the publishing industry and we've got two wonderful guests. They are gonna peel back the lid on that occupation of what it means to be a book editor. Not only a book editor, but a black woman book editor trying to get black and queer titles onto store shelves. And um, we're gonna talk with wonderful, wonderful Bethan, who's a very very prominent book critic. What's that like? Just what do you say when you criticize a book? Like, yeah, that story just didn't flow. And I would be piste up. At least if you review a movie, that's just two hours of your life. A book, is it? God? Damn, the book is a challenge two weeks we can do. How frequently do you review? How? Like, you know, how do you review a book? Back in the day, man, when I had to produce for for you know, guys who review books for a living, you got to read about five books a week? How many? Literally, like easily somewhere between the hundred and fifty three pesuk out my face. It was like going back to school. Man. It was it was, it was it was a lot. I read a lot, a lot, a lot of very bad books. H Wow. While I was doing doing production, I I read. But I've transitioned into a book on tape type person, Like I understand people who read, but you know, some books. Some like tangible hardcover readers. They like turn their nose up at people like me because you know they're purest you know, they're page turners. And I want to sit by a pool and enjoy a nice book under my blanket and all of that. Ship Michelle Obama's book Becoming, I had to have that in my physical hand in, but I want to hear Will Smith read his book, so I get it. I work both ways. Yeah, yeah, And you know we're gonna talk to bething about that about having a celebrity versus a regular person do all the voice acting and everything, the voice, the reading, you know what. I'm the narration for all of these books. We don't have a lot of time. We gotta get into us a real quick first up, it's time for Cody's Most Outstanding Employee of the Week. Boston Celtics coach email. I failed a trend trand oh my goodness, gracious email, however you say it, man trash. Here here's the thing. Now. According to TMZ, they said that one of the women or the only woman that so far, the one person that is that it is set. And I'm quoting TMZ. I'm not spreading roomors. We're not gonna spread no rooms with what we didn't have. Just only confirm ship on the shop. You don't even the current events for real, for real, because I'd like for more information to come out. But this ship still got damn lay sick say that it was a woman who books the team travel, including the plus ones of some of the coaches and players, including one Madam Neil Long. That's messy. That's the world, like dirty world right there. You then flew in the main chick and you decide chick. And then you saw also on TNG because we ain't spreading no rumors. He got caught on the ring doorbell, bro, he got caught on the ring doorbell. I'm sorry, break that down. Got the video who who like see them snitch as doorbell got caught on the ring camera at the at Shorty's house by her husband. That's all this stuff popped off. So the husband is just on the ring app watching his house in real time. And then the don the door. I didn't know. It's my head coach at my wife's door, right, And why is they talking dirty nash the ship? Oh my god, they're sucking on the front boot was on the front. Mm hmmm, Well, I mean the tape stopped work before he got to any point. But yeah, that's online. So lost what just happened? Who saw what? You froze? Who frozen? Roy? Oh? Did Jacqueline talked to a Raulph? I'm on stolen internet today. Someone on the rain camera. I don't know how Udokami Udoka was with, said team arranger. Girl, she's married. Woman. Let's go with a woman. We're not going to defame poorly of her. No, we're not gonna say that either, just because he's the one walking around putting his penis in everything, so she's sting checking. He didn't the story. We have a guest standing Bible knowledge to tell us. We got to get through this. Just a woman, So just say woman, third woman. Woman. I'm getting pronounce It ain't even my damn fault. Roy Anyway. The point is the husband saw Judoka with his wife on their ring doorbell, and he put the video out and that's how all this started because they was on the video and they was talking hell of spicy in front of the dough. He was hurt, didn't he didn't think it's through. You best not be cheating on the ring door. But how you get caught on the ring doorbell? Lazy? He didn't think this through. Now here's what I'll say. And I don't know how many of you have been aside dude, or have cheated or be cheated on or played an't role in the love triangle of this nature. What I can say without giving away too much of my past, that there is a degree in comedy. It's called commitment to the bit. This is where, no matter what is happening, you maintain a truth and your performance stays true to that no matter what's we're talking Jimmy Kimmel level at the Emmy's laying at the feet of Quinto Bronzon, being disrespectful. Commitment to the bit, to be a side check and be the travel liaison. That means you're in some instances at the hotel j G. You have done this work on many productions. You are the point person who is talking to the people. Your room is gonna be ready at this time. I got the sweet, I got there's a car coming to get your knee. See you at the Aventure. You see it in the Sweet, You see it at the Celtics charity chip that's going on and you gotta look in the face even or you're fucking a man and keep us. Do you understand the level of commitment to the bit that you have to have to be fucking another woman's man and have business dealings with that woman not motherfucking budget for fucking that man's and fucking that one. For fucking that woman's man and not flinching at all over a year, knowing that she was getting moved to Boston two weeks before the ship hit the fan, she probably helped to move Email the color had excuse me, woman who was sucking em Doka, woman who was fucking Email Doka consensually but illegally due to Boston Celtics Los not illegal, but it's immoral, But go ahead, it's not illegal. It's immoral, going to get to this guest woman who was immorlly but not illegally and consentually fucking emaila who was also part to blame because young man and he should have kept predictative fans. M hm, you most outstanding employee of the week if you like that. By Sackleson State Community College. Let's get into reading week worst than first time. It's getting to this reading ship now and this reading and ship. That's what we agree. He was gonna do this episode of reading and ship, okay, And I think it is only fair that we start this episode with the person who was the reason that we're doing this fucking episode. Just wonderful woman dropped the email. And that's that's what the whole job fair community is about. Roy's job fair dot com. By the way, if you ever want to be a hard to show, reach out to us on social topes of ship. Jacqueline will reply. I might not, but I guarantee you Jacqueline will reply. Even if you're a boy and you're not even a real person, Jacqueline will reply. And I've also chestis a few people because they were mean to others and we will not be mean. Yes, please go out and fix the internet. Go fix. Let me know how that works out for you. To chief, it's important that the jobs that you know. Part of why we started this podcast was about learning about the jobs that you forget that there are jobs and in the ins and outs of those particular jobs. And this woman reached out to us about the publishing industry and the ins and out of trying to get published. J G let us meet the patient zero for Reading and Ship Week, and we welcome Amanda. She lives in l A and has spent over twelve years in the book publishing industry. She's dealt with her fair share of microaggressions and radio active Karen's as an editor. She's passionate about highlighting black and queer authors, despite how difficult it can be to promote them. Roy Today, Amando will be talking with you about those challenges and the other challenges people of color face and the predominantly white industry. Hello Amanda, Hello, everybody, helong, It's Jacqueline. It's a delay. All the pleasures are as. I promise y'all done. I'm gonna let y'all do your bond and we talked about so we're good. Yeah, yes, yes, polite. Oh ya. Now, Amanda, when you reached out to us, to me, the email read from a place of more people need to know what the fund is happening over here. So when we talk about the publishing industry, just welc us through your journey, you know, just from a worse and first aspect, just your foray into that world as a newbie. I absolutely started publishing a like one of the worst times. It was peak recession. Um, it's like, oh nine, I got this job at Phoenix Books and Audio, which was at the time kind of famous for doing vanity books with celebrities. But a new editor in chief had come and he was going to make it legit lit ok, and uh. They interviewed for like assistant position and instead they offered me a publicity manager role, of course, being paid a lot less than what plicity manager should actually say. It's my first time, um they gave me. They offered me a cool thirty eight and they were like and then going up, not even in two years. Yeah, it was wild. What is it about books instead of say, writing television or writing movie piece Because books are the longest and most detailed form of story, but they're also the most difficult to get to market a lot of at least so it seems to me. So what was it about that particular genre of entertainment and storytelling that that drew you to it? Gosh, I think it goes back to my dad. Shout out to my dad, right right, Because he only knew one thing about being a dad was reading, So he read to us constantly and he got us into comic books and that sparked my love for the comic book art form really early, reading everything from X Men to Archie and then kind of lapsing as a teen because ship was getting real toxic. Yeah, I've just been reading as my primary means of escape after television. Uh. Yeah, it's a passion for me because it's an experience a book is. It feels like magic when it's a really great reading experience. And so that's always been kind of a thing for me, is pushing people forward and making a mess by blending genres and taking chances on debut people. When did the duality happen? If you just trying to get through the door yourself to now, from what I can tell, being a person who's trying to hold the door open to get more people through, it's hard. And I mean at first I had to kind of be a pick me to survive, and uh, that faded once my partner and I started our own weird comedy and comics anthology that then turned into a small press called The Devastator, And there I actually learned, oh fuck, this is a business and it's a bad one. It doesn't actually make sense. Um, and when you're actually trying to play with your own real money. There's no margin of error exactly. The game changes, your choices, change the risks you want to take, change, And so we were just kind of like bumping against that constant lee. And so I learned the art of craft of you know, coming up with the book concept all the way to half the then hand sell that book directly to readers at like a comic con um and we did like a dozen and a half of those a year for a long time, like selling out the trunk like a music artist a print of impressing your own CDs and then going out, okay, exactly nice. And like we even had like an issue called Crossovers where the cover is like a kind era of like a dozen cartoon characters and it's just very wild. That kind of made a crack, And that was like our eighth volume, and the A V Club wrote up, wrote it up, and we actually sold some copies and it was like, wow, this is what it looks like to be visible, just like a smidge in a visibility. What's the A Club? It's the Onions old culture paper. I guess it's still it still exists, but I don't understand the corporate Yeah, but their opinions are perspectives on all things, like fiction, and the fiction is extremely respected like on some Yeah, if you can get written up in the A V. Club, you did very well. You did some dope word up and you know, and that was just like back in um. But that was like the first time I started to feel like, Okay, people are reading this, people are understanding what we're trying to do and appreciate it in some way. And that really, you know, pushed us, you know, especially when we decided to open it up. Before you get out of this podcast, you will, you would give us the name and a way to go and look up this old stuff so that we can go and visit this stuff. Some of us might have kids who like looking at old comments. Oh hell yeah yeah. Devastator press dot com. That website still up. It has all of the stuff that we that we have done, and I think a lot of stuff is also still available as like any book. But um, I also send you ship. So let me know. I'm curious about two things. One, what's your favorite genre? And then also did you read I'm sorry, I'm sorry she wants question up today? It rolls into the point about how they actually did the marketing for Getty Shades of Gray, which turned into a movie about independent comic books, and you're like, you remember that book where the white people was tying each other up and she understands where I'm going and where you're going. I know where you're going, but you're also royaling with secret desire. I'm gonna start showing you all my d m s where they say thank you for asking valid questions. I don't want to see half of them. The reason that was that popped off the way it did was because it grew from a community. It was fan fiction, but then got the serial numbers rubbed off and kind of up cycled into traditional publishing, which like already was publishing it with like kind of you know, holding it out there like you know, we have this too. It's it was a whole They didn't expect it to be as big of a hit as it was, and you know, so you know, that's that's the game. Though you're literally making lotto tickets with each book in a way, especially like from a marketing perspective, and you kind of see it that way, which is, you know, good and bad. But the majority of books sell under two thousand copies to that point, Amanda, about they're only being two thousand books sold on average for the average copy. When we talk about the marketing and the dollars that are put behind particular projects, being movies or music or TV whatever, they tend to bet on what they think is going to do well based on what did well before it. But when you have so many new authors coming in of color, touching on topics that have never been breached before in the literary world, how are they or how are they not looking at trying to market Talk to us a little bit about the hurdles that you've seen within your industry on the market inside them of how they try to market black content. There's a lot of fight, especially in editorial, as editorial teams get like little sprinkles of tokens across the board and they start asking the questions, and marketing tends to kind of clam up and be defensive about these things, because again, it is an industry that's mostly white, but it's also mostly white women, and there's a lot of just like propriety, politics and and fear about even talking about stuff, and so like the diversity and inclusion language has been kind of co opted and bastardized and stuff um. And but most importantly, it's still a cynical calculation. Anytime they do make the actual risk and give a large issue advance to an author of color um, there's always more scrutiny. There's always weirder problems with the cover design. Um. You know, you'll get a design spit out and sent to you by the editor and they're like, well, I don't know, the publisher doesn't want to change it that much. I'm gonna see what I can do. And there have been a lot of people's hearts broken by like bad covers um, and that ship happens. Yeah, and with uh these publishers all monopolizing and they're just fewer and fewer options and a lot less people bidding against each other for things, it just becomes even easier to devalue everyone's work. And usually that's what happens. Once they start letting poc in, they start kind of neglecting it a little, and they kind of stop spending as much money across the board because they've got to spread it up. You know, there's a lot of just like weird white people mental accounting that happens when they look at a schedule. If they see two books by black authors in a season, they think, Wow, this is like a really diverse season. It's like you, bro, you put out hundreds of books a year. Yeah, there's just a lot of weird handwringing and microaggressions and bad assumptions and miscommunication. People not telling me ship because they just are afraid to talk to me. Um so uh And that's on them. We need to be clear about that. That is on problem. You cannot be Yeah, it's their problem. A lot of people listen to this, people who don't even know what microaggressions are. And we've been very fortunate to educate. But coming up to a black woman just because she is strong, smart and beautiful and you're like, I can't talk to her. No, that is your problem. Go ahead, man, No that is And like adding to that, that was one of the many things I would get is you know, you're gonna do this fat liberation book, but how do we make it approachable? You know? The there's like a whole the saurus of weird ass words that white women used to describe how scared they are of a topic or a person. And I feel like I've seen every variation. I guess that's not prudent in the sense of no business exists for the purpose of providing you a service, you know what I mean, Like, like the purpose of all businesses on this planet, no matter what service they provide or what product they say, it's strictly to make profit. It's not to do anybody any good. The whole purpose to sell you things and make money. And aren't they supposed to lean towards what's gonna sell more so than what's a feel good story, so to speak? But Rod, you're forgetting like the whole money thing is kind of like I think Roy was about to say, like, it's kind of there's a one be there. I think um. To them, it's more about their sphere of influence. It's more about maintaining their position, um, And so you know that they're not really thinking like a business, and a lot of the notes from the trial kind of out them as being completely disconnected from what they're actually offering people. My issue though, is the companies, and it's very similar in television, where no one wants to try the new idea. They want an idea that's like the other idea, like I'm not going to name names about shows, but there are a bunch of shows coming out next year that are all weird versions of Abbot Elementary. And if you've never gotten Abbot Elementary, then you wouldn't have gotten all these other shows. They just want to be stylistically and tonally like Abbott Elementary, which means that whatever the next Abbott Elementary is doesn't get a chance, because everybody wants something that looks like ship that's already out there, and I think that's probably, you know, at least that's what I think, right, and where the idea of making money. But we don't want to take a risk on something different to make money because it might not make money and then we're fucked. But then you don't get a Jordan Peel film. But then even on my funking like, Jordan Peel had to fucking have ten years of success doing some other ship for somebody to even take a five get Out was a five million dollar movie that shouldn't be a gamble, but it was treated like a whole lass fucking gamble, but it was. It was a gamble. You're not gonna be a successful business if all you're doing is constantly pitching what's next, you know what I mean, Like, you have to have shows that are already great or cookie cutter that are going, Okay, we do five cookie cutter things, and then the sixth thing we do is what we try to branch out. Because if you're constantly branching out, then you don't have a base and you're out. I agree with that, But then what do you do right if the sixth branch out project is being quarterback by the motherfucker's that did the other five cookie cutters and they want the sixth project to look like the cookie Cutters, and those are the people that have too much of a blind spot racially or creatively to even roll the goddamn dice on a five million dollar get out exactly. Yes, this is true. That's the only way you're ever gonna get something new. It's about those type of people. Like I said, you can't just be taking chances left and right. That leads to failure. With publishing, it's all about building a strong back list of books that are just always kind of selling in the background. And you know, for a place like Penguin before it merged with Random House, it was all those fucking classics. You know, they'll just put out Moby Dick every every two months with a different cover. They still dover because they have the money to float for the risks. So then that brings me to the final question than Amanda, if you have an idea that is on the outside of that corporate ideology, what are some tools and instruments that new authors can use to try and get their ideas seeing to try and get their ideas self published? Yeah, just give them. First base is have you ever printed your work before? Um? That's something I tell everyone, whether they're drawing or just typing, Uh, to print it out and edit it that way, um, before you start shopping it around. UM. I always find that my printed out edits are a lot smarter, um because I'm thinking about it more and like a reader's I And they also, like you know, the same ship where you like, you put a type in an email and you don't notice till it's already sent, Like it works that way with a printed thing. Um. Another thing is to sort of open up your sphere um, socially, even if that's one sided, just like on your socials, especially if you use your social media for your career, you really should look up who the like hit makers and the players are as well as the weirdos and try to follow them. And and you want to get some experience taking in the weird biases and opinions and uh thaves and all kinds and the politics of the thing you're trying the world you're trying to pitch in. Another thing is to reach out to mentorship programs, especially if you're black, indigenous person of color, especially if you're queer or fhem. There are a ton of resources out there. There's also databases that people have put together that you can add yourself to so that when people are looking they can kind of go through a database like Mari Naomi has a cartoon This of Color database and a disabled cartoons database, and and those have helped a lot of people. Amenda, thank you so much for coming on the show, than for emailing us, and thank you for being the whole reason that we even did a reading and ship week this week. We appreciate we appreciate you. Thank you so much for calling into the job. Thank you so much. It was it was a joy job. Fair reading week were reading and ship. We're talking about the world a book publishing Vig Thank you to Amanda for breaking down everything she goes through some book and understanding by it's a book critic who's going to give us some game on the scams that are going on in the book industry. But first time to slow it down here and welcome a brother into this show. This is the part of show where we try to give you a couple of things to talk about to your co workers as the opposite race coworkers you're board with just people you generally just can't stand. There's always one person and you all see you get stuck on the elevator, but you haven't seen that one more fun on the elevator. Third, the elevator open up, and you just gotta act like you left some ship at your desk an take the heavy side and everything. I don't even care if you know that's how bad it is. You just looked it. I can't today. No, just a boring motherfucker, bro, and I kind of I'm sorry. I gotta luck and walk away to help us do that. He's a man who heils to us from Middle Tennessee. He is currently the Boston Celtics grief counsel As he is help him counsel all of the various women in the Celtics office through this tragedy. Then is Mama named the Murato? We call him right for short ride. We don't have a lot of time to day. This is a pact episode. We're trying to We're trying like what we have to do ride, you know, after we do a relationship fan, we have to do an episode that has like real worth and like ethical to talking about sucking a holiday parties. We turn it over to you, right, We bring right on this program to give you topics that you can use to break the ice which co work and you can't stand right well. So some of the biggest news that's been going on recently is, uh, a lot of people have find a lot a lot of weird things about the people's obsession with the royal family and a lot of the protocols for the death and something you might want to talk to your white co workers about because they're more in tune with the royal family than anybody else. One of the weirder things I discovered during the Queen's death was the story about how the royal beekeeper was tasked with informing the queen's bees of her death. Yeah, it's got everything. It's got royals and animals. White people are gonna be all over those with buddy. Uh yeah. John Chappell the official keeper of the bees owned by the royal family in their states. It's a real not official beekeeper. But this is apparently a tradition that stretches back centuries in Europe. But okay, I get it her own homemade honey. But why is he out there trying to doctor Doolittle with? But he has to go in a hushed tone to each hive and informed them that their mistress has passed, but don't worry. You're about to have a new master, and they be very good to you. And this man has to go to every hive in the kingdom and say this to the bees. That's the script right there, like you're gonna that's the script that you're gonna have a wow? Does he say it or doesn't do? A fair question to the right, how many has? Do you know? How many has? I don't know how many hives? But um, math, you can do the math on it. There's uh he says, here's in charge of about a million bees, and there's twenty thousand bees per home. He has had to go there. They've kept it to the states. There's one in bucket Hand Palace, and there's nothing at another ground. So he has had to go around and sombrely informed the bees like a doctor coming out of the old r to tell you a family member didn't make it, and he has to left the beast. So the queen has massed. It's about my question that y'all is, if you had a job like that and they told you you got to go around and let all the all the animals know that the queen is dead, would you do it? Or would you just have to quit because you can't lower yourself that far. First of all, if it's the job, you know you gotta do what the job tells you you got to do. So you know what I mean. If the job tells you you got to go, and you know you committed to the job at that point, ain't you If you had to raising beats like you you ain't doing that for like two weeks, bro. I mean, I listen, if I had a job working with animals, I do it. But you can't. You can't. I don't think I could last through it. I could take care of some be he's as a person who's just a beekeeper. But if you tell me I need to go around all the hives and let them know the Queen is there, and you can actually watch me and make me do that. Like I'm not talking to the beats my day, I'm out. But right you, of the four of us ride, you're the only one. You worked as a vetican for years, so you have the compassion. So I would imagine every day you have to talk to a animal who's gonna be okay. But then I don't imagine that you're fine. The most of the most I would do was was pet them somber Land. I would try to comfort them, but I couldn't talk to them. I couldn't do that ship It would make me feel so stupid and good. How much do I make right? I just didn't do that. I don't. I couldn't see myself going around the hives going hey, guys, um, you know you probably felt the change in the air, and just want you to know it's not about to rain. Unfortunately, some bad news queen has passed. No, not that queen, the actual Queen of England. Listen, I understand, but you know it's a sad days for us. All. Yeah, if you guys want to just get a place, honey, production, I get if we're gonna be morning for about seventeen days. You know, my heart goes out to you. I'm gotta go down the door and too, I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't do that. I can't do that. You see that. You saw that right? Did you see that right there? You know what that was. That was committment right there, That was ride committing to that ride just improved the point of the dog Cody's That was brilliant. Right. Let's flip it up. Let's flip it up for the people today. Get a folks on to bring up to the black co work. The biggest, the biggest news going right now and the Black community is uh Rihanna has officially been announced as the upcoming super Bowl's halftime shows. So she is fresh off you know, ship pushing fenty and and and all of that up through the roof. And she's she's had a baby, now she's working on a new album, now she's coming She's gonna do the super Bowl. This is uh, this is huge, but it's causing a little backlash because she was one of the people who supported Colin Kaepernick, and there's a lot of people who still think black people shouldn't be working with the NFL. Well, I wonder what she's getting paid, because the rumor is that you don't get paid to do the Super Bowl because they know that you're going to get a bunch of streams and it's you have ways to fiscally leverage that appearance, So nor Rihanna should drop an album the next day or something like that. But you know, understand the social back and forth on it, you know, but I do think there's a little bit of hypocrisy and that. But you know what, if it's hypocritical to perform at the Super Bowl because you're black, then it's hypocritical to play in the NFL and black, not because you're black, but because you openly criticized this organization for having systemic issues that funk with black players, and a lot of those issues have not been completely absolved and cleansed yet there's been progressing. There's programs, and there's money, but don't and maybe that's enough for Rihanna. But I get by the streets matter that it's a fair is gonna be watching the Super Bowl at the same time they talk about black people should perform it. It's not gonna listen that, right. They asked Taylor Swift and she was like, now, thank you that it's not because she supports I was doing it too, said that she's not performing. She wouldn't form at the super Bowl until she's done recording her first re recording her first six albums so she could get the Royals is if not the people who sucked her over back into day Oh, that's right. What I also think we should hold out on with Rihanna is that she might do something that pays or not to something that's a little pro black. She's definitely for the culture, but you know, if that remains to be seen, they're not gonna muter. I don't know if they'll form at the hat stand up well not understand. I just mean, would you just be like if they just asked the host the half tipic, but would you be like, no, I'm with Colin Cavern. They going, hell, yeah, I made the super No, I get the money and I'll use that money and donated to programs at a state and local level which are far more effective than any racism. But we have to understand the lank of corporations aren't exactly the statement. I understand issues with the NFL, but what we must understand is that the state and local level, there's so many things where youth are not efficiently it. That's why I'm a part of the I See Me Reading Reading Fund, and I see me as a beautiful nonprofit that makes sure that books get in the hand. Part of my proceeds will go to the I See Me as well as Growing Keen. This is a black male mentorship program right there on the heart affirman have and I've been think so so we all know the name of this episode is Reading This Ship. But but the underlying theme here is coming There is a beautiful show talking about the strict empower of commitment ladies and gentlemen. I love I love it. The podcast is Uncle Rod Story Corner. You can get it wherever you get this fine podcast. Rod, as always sir, we bid you would do you get with you next with absolutely, let's up scam it a week time. Let's get back into this reading now. I know that I don't know ship about writing a book. I have read in a book proposal, I had a lit agent um and you have a there's a book idea, and like the thing that a lot of comedians do. Third, I know you know this, but like a lot of stand up comedians, a lot of bigger name comedians. And I'm not saying this as a diss I'm not saying this is disrespect. Let me make that clear first. A lot of comedians will take jokes that never worked on stage and compile them into a book, and jokes that don't work on stage sometimes read funny. I can't explain it, but it's a trick that a lot of bigger name comics do. Like once you're big, once you're established, just go back and digging the crates, fine old jokes, print them ships and it's a book and everybody will buy it and it's always fuking funny. But I didn't have anything like that. And just the process of writing the book, because you know what they make you do to sell a book. This motherfucker's make you write a piece of the book first for free day, like a demo tape. I have front size twelve courier new one point five spacing thirty five fucking pages, and someone reads it and they go, your ship sucks or tighten it up. And that's how you sell a book. And that's part of why I don't have a book yet, because I just don't have time to keep typing thirty page word documents. I want to know about some of the scams in this industry. I have a lot of questions about what it takes to sell a book. J G. Who do we have on the phone? Clearly she's chomping at the big Come on, we have author and critic beth and Patrick. Beth Ann is a literary insider and influencer in the book world. Her monthly columns and book reviews are available in The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, in PR and The Boston Globe. Absolutely, and basically because he does in darkness, I do yes. So. Most recently, Bethan added podcast host to her resume with a launch of The Missing Pages Podcast, a brand new investigated podcast exposing crimes, scammy jobs, cancel culture, and controversies within the book world. Hello Bethan, jack skins and scandals. I mean, I'm telling you, I'm chomping at the bit because publishing is full of this ship. It really is um and yet no one talks about it. You know, what you know, ours is the first podcast to really say, oh, look, so and so is just robbing you blind, and so and so is doing all of this bad behavior stuff, and you've got to talk about it. We got to talk about what makes publishing such a weird book publishing such a weird little thing in the world. Here, here's the thing that I found interesting about book publishing. Now that I'm not gonna say it shady. You just explained it to me. If that's how the market goes and the market now dictates, I didn't know that your audio book and your tangible book are two separate fucking deals. Like I thought, you write a book and then you go in the studio and read that bitch, and then they go, okay, do you want to digital book or do you want But now they make you sometimes if you're not a popular enough Arthur, and you stop me if I'm wrong that fan, you have to do a digital book first, and if that sales, then we'll then we'll consider you worthy of chopping down trees. Now wait a minute, Broyd, because we're talking audio books are one thing and then e books or digital books are another. That the fund is the difference want is painful. Is it coming through your ears or your eyes? Okay? If it's coming through your ears and it's an audio book. It used to be that those rights were sold separately when you signed your contract. Okay. So people were getting shafted by publishing because publishing is like, oh we we don't know. Um this is different, and um we'll have it over here, and we'll pay you like this much. They'll pay you almost nothing for audiobook rights. It's become a huge business now, and so agents have gotten smarter and now agents negotiate the audiobook rights and usually the book rights too. But like a swindle or Amazon fire tablet or whatever, now that's your books, yeah, exactly, okay, and so the book thing about that is all right? Those rights are usually negotiated in your contract now. Even ten years ago, it wasn't a short thing. But the audio book thing. Let's say you've written a book it's all about your life. You are dying to read this book out loud because you want to show your heart to the world. Right, doesn't mean you will. They might get some actor, sometimes someone really good. But you know what, a lot of audio books I don't know, Jacqueline, If you listen to them, you know, Roy. Third, if you listen to audio books, you're gonna have a bad narrator, and that can ruin the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, no they don't, So you have to be really careful about those rights. So if you're if you're what did you say, Roy, I'm sorry, I'm Some of the celebrities who read their own autobiographies be struggling through them syllables. I know a few cases of which you speak when we're talking about I P. It just sounds like the book industry to some degree has a little bit of the duplicitousness of the record industry, but it's not as exploitive because the sales aren't necessarily one to one of a book versus you know, actual music rights and royalties and mechanical royalties and writing royalties into perpetuity ba blah blah blah blah. But it just seems like as the as the way the publishing industry has been set up now with a hard copy e book and audiobook, are those new barriers of Are those used as new sales barriers of entry for new authors? You know, that is such an interesting question because they will say no, they will say, oh, we bring everything out together. But you know what, if a book is selling really well and hardcover, they're going to delay that paperback. If your book comes out quickly in paperback, it means hardcover sales were disappointing. We're hoping we're going to get get our money from you now, and then you know, usually now the audio book will come out at the same time. Uh, they're getting away from the separate releases. But let me tell you advances. See I don't know how this works in music, right, I don't know anything about this. But in the book industry, you get this quote unquote advance. And so you hear about people getting you know, five hundred thousand dollars for their book or whatever. Well, you don't get five hundred thousand dollars deposited that day. You get a quarter of five dred thousand dollars deposited. And then maybe you get a quarter when your manuscripts accepted, and blah blah blah and on and goes. And there are all these things that publishing calls bonuses. And I've just been sitting in court for this Department of Justice versus Penguin Random House trial. I've been covering it for publishers weekly. Let me just tell you without going too far into that, because I don't want to bore you to death, but they'll get a lot of questions, and these literary agents and publishers, they'll get these questions like, well, how is an author compensated? And they'll say something like this, Roy, well, we give them an advance, but sometimes the agents negotiate a bonus, and then the attorney says, so what's a bonus? Uh? You know, it's just like, oh, well, it's what we give people. Well, what do you mean, it's what we give people. Well, if we think this is going to happen or it is all I swear dark magic, you know, I'm just just yeah, no doubt I'm saying here, listen to you, bet then I'm absolutely intrigued. I'm not gonna lie to you. I know that you were talking about books and stuff, but the drama of the of the cigare world of publishing right now has gotten me because I mean, if you work, if you have been able to go to some of the parties that they throw for some of the authors and some of the stuff like that, you would never believe that some of these books. Some of these parties are stupid lavish, like there's been a lot of money and stuff and it's a book. And unfortunately, I say again, unfortunately, people just don't read hardcore books anymore like that. But when they do some of these launches, man, it's bananas and it's like how they're spending all this money just for a book. Yeah, it's it's wild, and that the book industry is set up in a way where Okay, we gave you half a meal, which means you don't touch ship until we get you don't get a dollar until we make back at half a meal, which is why they I've noticed with a lot of my friends who are authors, they are always stressing for people to write forwards for them. You have to get endorsements. And apparently explained to me the concept or explain to me why pre sale numbers are so important to books, because that's another thing about books is that that's it's an interesting metric by which they measure, you're the potential success and longevity of a project and whether or not to even invest more advertising and to give another pr push to a book in week two and week three. Movies are not about pre sale tickets. If it's a tent pole, Marvel, whatever the fun, Fine, people are gonna buy tickets up front for that. But for the most part, box office is about what happened once the movie drops. Sound scan and record scales or record sales are about what happened with the streams the Dave, that's when we start counting. But it seems with books, it's well, how many people already won't it? It's likely you know more about publishing that I do. Roy, you are so right about pre sales. You're so right about pre orders. And here's the thing. Um, So there was an author you might know of him. Um, he was on the stand last week. His name is Charles do Hig. He wrote the Power of Habit. Look at that. Yes, everyone loves the power of habit. And so one of the things you saying that in the actual like just tweeting it, people were like, oh, he sounds so spoiled, and I'm like no, because here's what he said. He said, your advance doesn't really matter. You know, that's just like some cost for the publisher. And yeah, you get some money, and it's great if you get a lot of money, but where you make your money really is in sales, and what he means by this is exactly Roy what you're asking. You know, that's why publishers look at those pre orders, and that's where they make a lot of these decisions about marketing and advertising and distribution that really can make or break a book. Right, So you know, sure, if they give you a million dollars, take it. I'm not saying that that advance doesn't matter to you, but what matters? Thank you? Yeah, exactly sixty million, But you know what, that book probably will go on to make so much more. And like do Higgs said, he has made five million dollars after seven advance on sales. Damn right. So if you look, if you you're careful about those pre orders, if you make sure people know how to pre order your book, if you you know, pump it up before publication, if you really pay attention to that, you can make a huge difference to the long tail. But then this is good stuff. After the break, I want we need to talk about how new authors can break into the game if they are trying to get their books out there. What can you do if you got a book and ideas the job fair would be right back, job fair, We are around and third and hit it for home talking books and reading and ship book publishing. Go ahead that thing. Can you go back even further? Because I wanted to read Michelle Obama's book by hand. I read Paul Monney's book by hand. But I also know there are some amazing authors out there that don't have those big names. How do they get in the game? But then, oh boy, you get in the game by finding yourself an agent. That's definitely different from the music industry. You can't stand on the corner with a book like a demo tape. You want to listen to my book, I'll read it to you. Well, you know, you have to find an agent. And this is tedious. Okay, um, it's tedious finding an agent. You have to submit your like Roy's proposal, or if you want to write fiction, your first I don't know, twenty five or fifty pages. It varies from agent to agent. So sometimes you're gonna be sending out like seventy five two hundred queries to agents. And here's the thing. Everyone's like, oh boo, who who? I got five more rejections today from agents, And I'm like, look, that is okay because you're only ever going to work with one. People have to remember that you don't work with ten agents at a time, you work with one. So wait for the right one. Be patient. You know, if you really have written something worth saying, it's worth waiting, you know, a year, two years, even more than that to find the agent you want to work with. So once you've done that, and I don't again, don't want to bore you all to death, but then your agent has to, you know, pull up his or her big girl pants and get in there and start negotiating with editors. And this is part of the problem with publishing. It's all based on trust and relationships, and how do people form those relationships? Oh, I think I'm going to say we're a dirty word, prof Ledge. I was gonna guess drugs. But okay, Privilege, do you mind dropping a little bit more on us about your podcast? I want to know a little bit more about what you're doing with this. Oh fantastic. Well, Missing pages is it's it's a collaboration between members of a small army at the Podglomerate. So um. The CEO, Jeff Bmbro, had this idea that he wanted to do sort of a page six for books, and um, he found me and he liked my voice and he liked my resume, and I said, look, I'm really interested in this, Jeff, but if we work past, you know, a few weeks here, I've got some deeper issues I want to cover in this, you know. I want to talk about the problems in the publishing industry, about privilege, around diversity, around include Shian, accessibility, all of this stuff. And he brought on this brilliant show runner. Her name is Kayla Littman, and she with my producer Jordan Aaron, and my wonderful writer Matt Keely, we all came together and made this show not just about scams and scandals, but about why scams and scandals like this can take place. Okay, so, um, we're looking at things like, for instance, um, the Woman in the Window was a big bestseller four or five years ago and its author was um A J. Finn, But A J. Finn was really a book editor named Dan Mallory. And Dan Mallory, well, let's just say he lied a little bit. No more spoilers than that, but it's a pretty interesting show. And then we have another one about this it girl in New York named Caroline Callaway. She was like the Queen of the West Village, big influencer, big instagrammer, and got a huge advance to write a memoir at random House. And not only did she never write the memoir, but in order to pay back the advance, she decided, I'm not going to tell you anything more than this, but she opened an only fans account to pay back. Open, got a bust open, let's go, bus it open and let's go. And then, of course make sure you make sure you send me, send me the name of that table picture. Oh yes, absolutely yeah. And that's not to count the scores of authors that have a deal, get in advance and say something wile get canceled and then they have their book deals taken from them or have their titles pulled from the shelves. We definitely thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Is Missing Pages. Your debut memoir Life be published by cattle Point. We can expect that in we'll give you some pre sales to make sure that these motherfucker's give you a digital book and an e book and an audio book to let me do you like that? We want all to read money, money, you guys so much You can follow her on all of her socials at the book Mayven The Book Mayven. If you want to talk books in gospipel a little bit, Beck, then thank you so much for coming on the job Fair. We appreciate you. Thank you for coming on Reading week, reading and ship reading Ship Week. Thank you, roy Ironed Jacqueline read reads a little weird. You already had like a we but we talked ship but now like reading a book on the toilet, right that the same thing we need. We need your toilet book picks. Next time we got wait wait, I wrote an Uncle John's Bathroom Reader, and I am next time you have me on. I will read some selections from that, but we'll back man what you taught you about Kwam Mills and good. But I'm gonna let it go right now. Yeah, we'll talk about black Litt later. Thank you so much. Right there, he got excited about it. Thank you for your bet. Royce John Fare is a product of iHeart Media, Comedy, Central, Paramountain, South Park and Princeton Productions. Thank you as always, Rod, appreciate you for the reading and ship stories this week. And you know next week we'll try and do it again, and maybe next week, Jacqueline will break her consecutive week street of asking freaky ask questions. It ain't got shipped to do with the topic that here is that, what we're doing whatever. This has been a Comedy Central podcast