From the KIRO Radio Newsroom in Seattle, I'm Dave Ross and these are the Ross Files.

From the KIRO Radio Newsroom in Seattle, I'm Dave Ross and these are the Ross Files.

We certainly heard a lot about the white power movement but there was a time when it wasn't just this aspirational idea that we'd have a lot of white people moving to New Hampshire or something. There was a paramilitary part of this. And Kathleen Belew documents this in a book called Bring the war home.

We certainly heard a lot about the white power movement but there was a time when it wasn't just this aspirational idea that we'd have a lot of white people moving to New Hampshire or something. There was a paramilitary part of this. And Kathleen Belew documents this in a book called Bring the war home.

You. Why are you so fascinated with white power. What got you into this.

You. Why are you so fascinated with white power. What got you into this.

You know I started this book wanting to learn more about truth and reconciliation commissions. A lot of countries that have histories of racial violence and racial inequality like the United States have been through national processes of trying to grapple with that history and what it means for myself. Doing sure South Africa Germany and many places in Central America. The United States hasn't really done that process at the national level. But there was one commission that was an NGO project in Greensboro North Carolina that was trying to get to the bottom of an event in 1979 when Klansmen and neo-Nazis together opened fire on a leftist demonstration and ended up killing five protesters there. Four white men and one African-American woman. The thing that was really striking about that TRC process which was in 2005 is that the people that came to testify about why they had been involved in hate groups over and over again expressed this idea of of course they killed communists in Vietnam. So why wouldn't they kill communists in the United States. Now that Vietnam vets some of them were and some of them were not. But the idea that the Vietnam war and domestic White Power activity were the same that collapses so many things. Time and space peacetime and wartime different kinds of enemies. And I was just fascinated with that idea. When I got into the archive of this movement it turns out that that is sort of the foundational narrative that allowed a whole bunch of different kinds of activists to come together in racial violence.

You know I started this book wanting to learn more about truth and reconciliation commissions. A lot of countries that have histories of racial violence and racial inequality like the United States have been through national processes of trying to grapple with that history and what it means for myself. Doing sure South Africa Germany and many places in Central America. The United States hasn't really done that process at the national level. But there was one commission that was an NGO project in Greensboro North Carolina that was trying to get to the bottom of an event in 1979 when Klansmen and neo-Nazis together opened fire on a leftist demonstration and ended up killing five protesters there. Four white men and one African-American woman. The thing that was really striking about that TRC process which was in 2005 is that the people that came to testify about why they had been involved in hate groups over and over again expressed this idea of of course they killed communists in Vietnam. So why wouldn't they kill communists in the United States. Now that Vietnam vets some of them were and some of them were not. But the idea that the Vietnam war and domestic White Power activity were the same that collapses so many things. Time and space peacetime and wartime different kinds of enemies. And I was just fascinated with that idea. When I got into the archive of this movement it turns out that that is sort of the foundational narrative that allowed a whole bunch of different kinds of activists to come together in racial violence.

So the paramilitary white power movement grew out of the Vietnam War. Yes exactly.

So the paramilitary white power movement grew out of the Vietnam War. Yes exactly.

The Vietnam War provided a narrative that brought together people that wouldn't have been in the room before like neo-Nazis and Klansmen. It also operationalized this movement in an entirely new way by contributing weapons technologies symbols repertoires and this big performative script that was available to a whole lot of people who didn't serve.

The Vietnam War provided a narrative that brought together people that wouldn't have been in the room before like neo-Nazis and Klansmen. It also operationalized this movement in an entirely new way by contributing weapons technologies symbols repertoires and this big performative script that was available to a whole lot of people who didn't serve.

So one of the interesting things I found. Just let me just stop you for a moment. These are soldiers who took an oath to protect the country. And what you're talking about is treason.

So one of the interesting things I found. Just let me just stop you for a moment. These are soldiers who took an oath to protect the country. And what you're talking about is treason.

Well let me be very clear about what I'm saying about the role of veterans in this movement because it turns out that spikes in groups like the Klan spikes in membership align more consistently with the aftermath of combat than they do with many other historical factors that we've commonly used to understand them. So the aftermath of warfare is a better predictor for Klan activity than are peaks in immigration populism labor unrest economic need in fact there was just a survey indicating that despite what people think under Donald Trump racism has actually dropped. Oh I haven't seen that yet. But the interesting thing about that spike in post-war Klan action is that it's not just veterans it turns out to be the entirety of American society that becomes more violent in the aftermath of combat. So what's happening in my story is that white power veterans who come back and work within this movement are very instrumental and are shaping activism for a whole lot of people. But they're also creating this sort of space for people who didn't serve to wear uniforms to parade in public to use the weapons to go through paramilitary training. So they're sort of the vanguard.

Well let me be very clear about what I'm saying about the role of veterans in this movement because it turns out that spikes in groups like the Klan spikes in membership align more consistently with the aftermath of combat than they do with many other historical factors that we've commonly used to understand them. So the aftermath of warfare is a better predictor for Klan activity than are peaks in immigration populism labor unrest economic need in fact there was just a survey indicating that despite what people think under Donald Trump racism has actually dropped. Oh I haven't seen that yet. But the interesting thing about that spike in post-war Klan action is that it's not just veterans it turns out to be the entirety of American society that becomes more violent in the aftermath of combat. So what's happening in my story is that white power veterans who come back and work within this movement are very instrumental and are shaping activism for a whole lot of people. But they're also creating this sort of space for people who didn't serve to wear uniforms to parade in public to use the weapons to go through paramilitary training. So they're sort of the vanguard.

That's right they're expanding the apparatus so that a whole lot of other people can can join in this culture.

That's right they're expanding the apparatus so that a whole lot of other people can can join in this culture.

Is there a particular profile. What is it that motivates someone to say hey my race is superior to yours.

Is there a particular profile. What is it that motivates someone to say hey my race is superior to yours.

That's an excellent question and I think that there isn't really a profile. I think one way to understand this is that. So it's a social movement. It includes men women and children and includes people with a very wide variety of educational backgrounds ranging from high school dropouts to holders of engineering advanced degrees felons and religious leaders alike. And as we've talked about veterans and active duty troops and civilians and they're in every region of the country they're in rural space urban space suburban space and they're joined together not only by this ideology but also by very deep social connections. So one way to think about this is that it's a it's a movement with varied levels of activity you can think about expanding concentric circles. So in the middle in the 1980s which is the period of my study you would think about 25,000 only. It's a very small number of hardcore activists.

That's an excellent question and I think that there isn't really a profile. I think one way to understand this is that. So it's a social movement. It includes men women and children and includes people with a very wide variety of educational backgrounds ranging from high school dropouts to holders of engineering advanced degrees felons and religious leaders alike. And as we've talked about veterans and active duty troops and civilians and they're in every region of the country they're in rural space urban space suburban space and they're joined together not only by this ideology but also by very deep social connections. So one way to think about this is that it's a it's a movement with varied levels of activity you can think about expanding concentric circles. So in the middle in the 1980s which is the period of my study you would think about 25,000 only. It's a very small number of hardcore activists.

So what I mean by that is people who live and breathe within this movement they marry people in the movement they get their marital counseling from people in the movement. They pick each other up from the airport they go to church in the movement. All of it is inside of their circle.

So what I mean by that is people who live and breathe within this movement they marry people in the movement they get their marital counseling from people in the movement. They pick each other up from the airport they go to church in the movement. All of it is inside of their circle.

And then what links them is what does it they want. Well when you say they're the white supremacist they simply want to move to nourish. This has only white people or do they want some kind of armed takeover.

And then what links them is what does it they want. Well when you say they're the white supremacist they simply want to move to nourish. This has only white people or do they want some kind of armed takeover.

Let me get back to that in one second. Look at these concentric circles also include people with much less intense relationships with the movement. So there's an outer circle that's like one hundred and fifty thousand people who go to rallies and buy literature and then outside of that 450000 people who don't themselves by the literature but regularly read the literature. So you can imagine that that model both works to push ideas from the middle out to people who aren't in the movement and also works to pull in people who can be radicalized. Now that question about what they want is really important because after 1983 this movement is dedicated to waging war on the federal government and envisions a race war often a holy war that will result in an all white homeland or nation or world. So that is as you said earlier yeah.

Let me get back to that in one second. Look at these concentric circles also include people with much less intense relationships with the movement. So there's an outer circle that's like one hundred and fifty thousand people who go to rallies and buy literature and then outside of that 450000 people who don't themselves by the literature but regularly read the literature. So you can imagine that that model both works to push ideas from the middle out to people who aren't in the movement and also works to pull in people who can be radicalized. Now that question about what they want is really important because after 1983 this movement is dedicated to waging war on the federal government and envisions a race war often a holy war that will result in an all white homeland or nation or world. So that is as you said earlier yeah.

Who would want to live in a nation like that where where would they get support I mean 450,000 that's a large number people. But we are a country now of 300 million. I mean who's going to support someone.

Who would want to live in a nation like that where where would they get support I mean 450,000 that's a large number people. But we are a country now of 300 million. I mean who's going to support someone.

That's an excellent question. And this is why it is so important to understand this strange dystopian novel called The Turner Diaries that becomes a lodestar of this movement and kind of a manual of operations but more than that I think it's so important because it fills in exactly this question that you're asking which is how could they possibly think this would work right. This is a tiny fringe movement that's trying to take on the most militarized superstate in the history of the world. And the Turner Diaries lays out a plan for how this might work. And one of the things that talks about is that it's not always going to be a fringe movement. They think that acts of sabotage of the government sabotage of its infrastructure and mass violence attacks like the Oklahoma City bombing. Those aren't supposed to be the endpoint in and of themselves. Those are supposed to awaken the rest of the white people to what these activists see as such a clear and obvious threat that they will join this movement and be part of this uprising. I mean they would say that this is not the model they're using but basically it is Maoism or asymmetrical combat. They see this as a long plan to bring people terrorism. Yeah it is it's all style terrorism.

That's an excellent question. And this is why it is so important to understand this strange dystopian novel called The Turner Diaries that becomes a lodestar of this movement and kind of a manual of operations but more than that I think it's so important because it fills in exactly this question that you're asking which is how could they possibly think this would work right. This is a tiny fringe movement that's trying to take on the most militarized superstate in the history of the world. And the Turner Diaries lays out a plan for how this might work. And one of the things that talks about is that it's not always going to be a fringe movement. They think that acts of sabotage of the government sabotage of its infrastructure and mass violence attacks like the Oklahoma City bombing. Those aren't supposed to be the endpoint in and of themselves. Those are supposed to awaken the rest of the white people to what these activists see as such a clear and obvious threat that they will join this movement and be part of this uprising. I mean they would say that this is not the model they're using but basically it is Maoism or asymmetrical combat. They see this as a long plan to bring people terrorism. Yeah it is it's all style terrorism.

The what's the complaint. There's got to be there's going to be a complaint just beyond the fact that I'm white and I'm superior. These must be people who are failing economically in some way or what.

The what's the complaint. There's got to be there's going to be a complaint just beyond the fact that I'm white and I'm superior. These must be people who are failing economically in some way or what.

They're not all feeling economically. I think the thing that they have in common is this very intense sense of emergency and they're reacting to real historical change right. They're reacting to transformations in the United States in the late 20th century that really are changing the nation. And we talk about this a lot when we when we were in scholarly and journalistic accounts talk about the moment of demographic transformation of the United States when certain cities or towns or the nation will no longer be a white majority country. Right. We usually think about that as a soft change. These activists experience that as tantamount to race annihilation. So when we think about the variety of issues that they're concerned with like abortion being anti feminist being anti-immigrant being anti LBGT rights and in favor of what they call free association that's all for them about white reproduction.

They're not all feeling economically. I think the thing that they have in common is this very intense sense of emergency and they're reacting to real historical change right. They're reacting to transformations in the United States in the late 20th century that really are changing the nation. And we talk about this a lot when we when we were in scholarly and journalistic accounts talk about the moment of demographic transformation of the United States when certain cities or towns or the nation will no longer be a white majority country. Right. We usually think about that as a soft change. These activists experience that as tantamount to race annihilation. So when we think about the variety of issues that they're concerned with like abortion being anti feminist being anti-immigrant being anti LBGT rights and in favor of what they call free association that's all for them about white reproduction.

So they oppose abortion because they don't want to lower the White birthrate. They oppose immigration because they don't want to be flooded by people of color. All of this is articulated in the movement with a series of very evocative writings and images about the white female body and the work that white women need to do and having children in order to sort of be a bulwark to this kind of change I see.

So they oppose abortion because they don't want to lower the White birthrate. They oppose immigration because they don't want to be flooded by people of color. All of this is articulated in the movement with a series of very evocative writings and images about the white female body and the work that white women need to do and having children in order to sort of be a bulwark to this kind of change I see.

But what do they think will happen to white people once white people become a minority.

But what do they think will happen to white people once white people become a minority.

Well so for them what they're talking about is a. Well let me let me.

Well so for them what they're talking about is a. Well let me let me.

By the way who is a white person. I mean this is getting off the subject but now that we have genetic testing it turns out that everybody's got plenty of black blood in them so I mean yeah I mean who is a white person is a very very loaded and interesting historical question.

By the way who is a white person. I mean this is getting off the subject but now that we have genetic testing it turns out that everybody's got plenty of black blood in them so I mean yeah I mean who is a white person is a very very loaded and interesting historical question.

And I think just staying within the scope of my book there's at least one activist in one of these terrorist cells whose name is Tom Martinez who spends a lot of time saying he's Castilian but is from Philadelphia and is probably Latino. It goes on like that. It's a flexible and you know highly socially constructed category. But what they understand this to mean is related to a political theology that is also motivating this movement called Christian Identity right.

And I think just staying within the scope of my book there's at least one activist in one of these terrorist cells whose name is Tom Martinez who spends a lot of time saying he's Castilian but is from Philadelphia and is probably Latino. It goes on like that. It's a flexible and you know highly socially constructed category. But what they understand this to mean is related to a political theology that is also motivating this movement called Christian Identity right.

Which holds that white people are the true lost tribe of Israel that everyone else in the world is descended either from the devil or from animals. And they it Christian Identity calls its followers to clear the world of non-white enemies before Jesus can return in the apocalyptic last days. So that transforms this entire project into a holy war where they're not going to have a rapture moment like there's not going to be no peaceful exit like there is for evangelical congregations. They have to outlast they believe a period of tribulations and then they have to be the foot soldiers of God in clearing the world of non-white people before Jesus can return to Earth.

Which holds that white people are the true lost tribe of Israel that everyone else in the world is descended either from the devil or from animals. And they it Christian Identity calls its followers to clear the world of non-white enemies before Jesus can return in the apocalyptic last days. So that transforms this entire project into a holy war where they're not going to have a rapture moment like there's not going to be no peaceful exit like there is for evangelical congregations. They have to outlast they believe a period of tribulations and then they have to be the foot soldiers of God in clearing the world of non-white people before Jesus can return to Earth.

So it's a religious thing. It does it is not about their stagnant wages or press 1 for English and press 2 for Spanish.

So it's a religious thing. It does it is not about their stagnant wages or press 1 for English and press 2 for Spanish.

It's about all of that together. But it's motivated and operationalized through these big rhetorical structures like Christian identity like the para militarism of the Vietnam War. And it's that collision of socioeconomic context with this ideology that creates such a high body count for the movement as it encounters civilians.

It's about all of that together. But it's motivated and operationalized through these big rhetorical structures like Christian identity like the para militarism of the Vietnam War. And it's that collision of socioeconomic context with this ideology that creates such a high body count for the movement as it encounters civilians.

So there's really no reasoning this away. No there's really no thing you can say that's gonna change . I mean once you start saying it's a religious move it doesn't really matter that black people are not hurting you in any way. It doesn't matter that American culture has always changed in terms of the whole language. Things like that. This is this is God telling you to do this.

So there's really no reasoning this away. No there's really no thing you can say that's gonna change . I mean once you start saying it's a religious move it doesn't really matter that black people are not hurting you in any way. It doesn't matter that American culture has always changed in terms of the whole language. Things like that. This is this is God telling you to do this.

Well let me say that another way. There have been some excellent accounts of people in the present moment who have left this kind of belief system and have dedicated their lives and their work to helping other people leave hate groups. Those are real stories. That's I'm a historian so my expertise is not there but there is real information about how we might contribute to that project if people are interested in reading more. But I think the thing that I would say is that coming from a historical perspective and thinking about this as a social movement one thing that's very important to understand is how much the history can teach us about what we're seeing in the present moment because this is a movement that has been working and has been using things like social network activism and has been revolutionary at least since the early 1980s. It has continued largely unchecked since then. So we have to think about the ways that it has built power structures generational continuity. It has learned from strategies. So we have to face it as an organized social movement with a coherent political ideology that might be better understood by taking that seriously.

Well let me say that another way. There have been some excellent accounts of people in the present moment who have left this kind of belief system and have dedicated their lives and their work to helping other people leave hate groups. Those are real stories. That's I'm a historian so my expertise is not there but there is real information about how we might contribute to that project if people are interested in reading more. But I think the thing that I would say is that coming from a historical perspective and thinking about this as a social movement one thing that's very important to understand is how much the history can teach us about what we're seeing in the present moment because this is a movement that has been working and has been using things like social network activism and has been revolutionary at least since the early 1980s. It has continued largely unchecked since then. So we have to think about the ways that it has built power structures generational continuity. It has learned from strategies. So we have to face it as an organized social movement with a coherent political ideology that might be better understood by taking that seriously.

I think people are hoping that if you ignore it or it will go away. But you're saying no it won't.

I think people are hoping that if you ignore it or it will go away. But you're saying no it won't.

I'm saying just the opposite. What we have done so far is ignore it and it has largely not only not gone away but has produced escalating acts of violence. We can think about the Oklahoma City bombing which is the largest deliberate mass casualty in the United States between Pearl Harbor and 9/11. But we don't really have a public understanding of what that meant as part of this organized movement. We don't really teach it in our history classes as part of an organized movement.

I'm saying just the opposite. What we have done so far is ignore it and it has largely not only not gone away but has produced escalating acts of violence. We can think about the Oklahoma City bombing which is the largest deliberate mass casualty in the United States between Pearl Harbor and 9/11. But we don't really have a public understanding of what that meant as part of this organized movement. We don't really teach it in our history classes as part of an organized movement.

Well I mean what the result of that was a huge backlash. I mean the militia movement even gun rights people said whoa this is not what we're about. And they had to disband pretty much did they.

Well I mean what the result of that was a huge backlash. I mean the militia movement even gun rights people said whoa this is not what we're about. And they had to disband pretty much did they.

Well what happened is that they went online so it wasn't that they disbanded. It's that there was a brief moment of retreat and a reformation and a reemergence. And you see the continuity there and actually the Christchurch shooting in New Zealand where we see the continued use of social networking to to connect these activists to put them in common concert and to motivate and shape acts of violence. Now this movement went online I should say on proto internet computer message boards. In 1983 84 they had a network called Liberty Net that they built by distributing stolen money around the country buying Apple many computers and teaching activists how to use them so that they could all be online doing this thing. Now Liberty Net had assassination lists and content kind of organizing the sell style action but it also had things like personal ads and recipe exchanges. So effectively they were pioneering Facebook before Facebook even existed. They've been using these methods of activism for longer than most of us have been understanding how to respond. And that has to change if we want a different kind of response to this. This activism.

Well what happened is that they went online so it wasn't that they disbanded. It's that there was a brief moment of retreat and a reformation and a reemergence. And you see the continuity there and actually the Christchurch shooting in New Zealand where we see the continued use of social networking to to connect these activists to put them in common concert and to motivate and shape acts of violence. Now this movement went online I should say on proto internet computer message boards. In 1983 84 they had a network called Liberty Net that they built by distributing stolen money around the country buying Apple many computers and teaching activists how to use them so that they could all be online doing this thing. Now Liberty Net had assassination lists and content kind of organizing the sell style action but it also had things like personal ads and recipe exchanges. So effectively they were pioneering Facebook before Facebook even existed. They've been using these methods of activism for longer than most of us have been understanding how to respond. And that has to change if we want a different kind of response to this. This activism.

So this is sort of like Hamas not just a resistance movement but also a social movement that also provides actual material benefits to its people. And you're saying they're arming themselves. Yes. And I know the FBI has certainly had this on their radar for a long time.

So this is sort of like Hamas not just a resistance movement but also a social movement that also provides actual material benefits to its people. And you're saying they're arming themselves. Yes. And I know the FBI has certainly had this on their radar for a long time.

But clearly we we assume it can't get anywhere.

But clearly we we assume it can't get anywhere.

Yes and I think that's a false assumption. The in the period of my study. So if you look just at the 1980s these groups were doing things like obtaining tons and I mean that literal tons of stolen military weapons and material from army posts and bases like taking things from the armory at Fort Bragg North Carolina. And I'm talking about not only semiautomatic rifles but anti-tank weapons and grenades and they were trying to get surface to air weapons for a while that didn't work out.

Yes and I think that's a false assumption. The in the period of my study. So if you look just at the 1980s these groups were doing things like obtaining tons and I mean that literal tons of stolen military weapons and material from army posts and bases like taking things from the armory at Fort Bragg North Carolina. And I'm talking about not only semiautomatic rifles but anti-tank weapons and grenades and they were trying to get surface to air weapons for a while that didn't work out.

These are not the the ordinary second amendment types who have a rifle in the basement just in case the government turns rogue.

These are not the the ordinary second amendment types who have a rifle in the basement just in case the government turns rogue.

Some of them are but the people that I'm studying in the 80s were interested in becoming a paramilitary army. Now when the FBI went to prosecute them there was this major trial in Fort Smith Arkansas seditious conspiracy trial of 13 activists and leaders that resulted in no prosecutions despite large amounts of evidence to support the idea that they were interested in overthrowing the government including their own writings on the subject. After that trial the FBI and DOJ reacted with sort of a sense of embarrassment at this major public trial that didn't work out and institutionalized a policy that they would investigate this kind of action as individual acts and not as part of a movement. So that policy was in place when Timothy McVeigh and others bombed the Oklahoma City building in in April 1995 and as a result the investigation didn't even consider how to establish McVeigh's relationship with this larger array of groups and movements and leaders and activists who had been targeting that same building since 1983.

Some of them are but the people that I'm studying in the 80s were interested in becoming a paramilitary army. Now when the FBI went to prosecute them there was this major trial in Fort Smith Arkansas seditious conspiracy trial of 13 activists and leaders that resulted in no prosecutions despite large amounts of evidence to support the idea that they were interested in overthrowing the government including their own writings on the subject. After that trial the FBI and DOJ reacted with sort of a sense of embarrassment at this major public trial that didn't work out and institutionalized a policy that they would investigate this kind of action as individual acts and not as part of a movement. So that policy was in place when Timothy McVeigh and others bombed the Oklahoma City building in in April 1995 and as a result the investigation didn't even consider how to establish McVeigh's relationship with this larger array of groups and movements and leaders and activists who had been targeting that same building since 1983.

OK so much of your book is is talking about the roots of this movement. Where does it stand now. Do we have it. Is there an underground and armed paramilitary preparing to open a battle somewhere.

OK so much of your book is is talking about the roots of this movement. Where does it stand now. Do we have it. Is there an underground and armed paramilitary preparing to open a battle somewhere.

So this is where I have to be a historian and say that my archive and therefore my real sense of expertise ends in 1996. But what I think the earlier movement can tell us about that question is that white power activism has consistently used a strategy of organizing both in public facing actions so the marches in Charlottesville for instance and in underground actions preparing for violence. The underground is the part that is incredibly difficult to see as it's happening. So in the archive of that earlier period you don't get to see that stuff until you have FBI surveillance documents and court testimony and the aftermath of these kinds of attacks. But I think that it's very clear that that those strategies have occurred in tandem. So I would expect them to continue to do so in the present.

So this is where I have to be a historian and say that my archive and therefore my real sense of expertise ends in 1996. But what I think the earlier movement can tell us about that question is that white power activism has consistently used a strategy of organizing both in public facing actions so the marches in Charlottesville for instance and in underground actions preparing for violence. The underground is the part that is incredibly difficult to see as it's happening. So in the archive of that earlier period you don't get to see that stuff until you have FBI surveillance documents and court testimony and the aftermath of these kinds of attacks. But I think that it's very clear that that those strategies have occurred in tandem. So I would expect them to continue to do so in the present.

Do you think is going on. Yeah. Do you think the FBI is on top of it.

Do you think is going on. Yeah. Do you think the FBI is on top of it.

That's very very difficult to evaluate. Iis the military n top of that because since then we've had the not just the Vietnam War but a very traumatic at least for a lot of people war in Iraq.

That's very very difficult to evaluate. Iis the military n top of that because since then we've had the not just the Vietnam War but a very traumatic at least for a lot of people war in Iraq.

Absolutely. And we also have this very prolonged period of homecoming and aftermath which is different than any other war that we've seen in the modern period. I think it's too soon to know how exactly that will impact these spikes in activity that I've been talking about but I think it is certain that it will appear at some point. The question of FBI and military resources and oversight of this kind of activity is very very difficult to evaluate from the outside. I will say that the number of incident reports that are coming out of the the armed forces are very very low. There was a frontline investigation that that found I think I don't recall the specifics but it was like 30 incidents or something of my power activity in the armed forces. That's way too low. I mean out there that that either means that somebody is not counting something or that somebody is not reporting something there is a break.

Absolutely. And we also have this very prolonged period of homecoming and aftermath which is different than any other war that we've seen in the modern period. I think it's too soon to know how exactly that will impact these spikes in activity that I've been talking about but I think it is certain that it will appear at some point. The question of FBI and military resources and oversight of this kind of activity is very very difficult to evaluate from the outside. I will say that the number of incident reports that are coming out of the the armed forces are very very low. There was a frontline investigation that that found I think I don't recall the specifics but it was like 30 incidents or something of my power activity in the armed forces. That's way too low. I mean out there that that either means that somebody is not counting something or that somebody is not reporting something there is a break.

So you think that there has to be a lot more than is being reported.

So you think that there has to be a lot more than is being reported.

I would think yes. And the problem with FBI resources is that we have you know there there are heroes in my book of FBI agents who are doing their all to confront this in the in the moment and people who spend their whole lives trying to deal with this threat to our nation. But there are also systems in place that make it very difficult to allocate resources to confronting whites terroristic violence. I think it's a complicated and very historically loaded question. But you know if you go all the way back to the CO and tell pro days of the 60s we see the FBI infiltrating both groups on the right and the left. But the overwhelming bulk of money and violence ends up being targeted at groups of color. You know I think that that ranges from individual prejudice to systemic bias.

I would think yes. And the problem with FBI resources is that we have you know there there are heroes in my book of FBI agents who are doing their all to confront this in the in the moment and people who spend their whole lives trying to deal with this threat to our nation. But there are also systems in place that make it very difficult to allocate resources to confronting whites terroristic violence. I think it's a complicated and very historically loaded question. But you know if you go all the way back to the CO and tell pro days of the 60s we see the FBI infiltrating both groups on the right and the left. But the overwhelming bulk of money and violence ends up being targeted at groups of color. You know I think that that ranges from individual prejudice to systemic bias.

So would you say that the danger of some kind of white rebellion is more clear and present than the danger of another 9/11 attack by Muslim extremists.

So would you say that the danger of some kind of white rebellion is more clear and present than the danger of another 9/11 attack by Muslim extremists.

I would hate to to to say anything about attacks by Muslim extremists because it's so far outside of my area but I would say that one thing that is clear to me in the present is that we can look at we get stories about anti-Semitic violence as at the tree of life shooting synagogue. We get stories about Islamophobic violence in Christchurch. We get stories about political violence that Coast Guard officer who is arrested with all the hit lists of political enemies. But what we don't often see are stories that connect all three of those perpetrators together in a common ideology. But all of them were white power activists they used the same rhetoric the same ideology said this is this is not just coincidence. No. And what we see if we put those stories together is a rising wave of activity. It's not a single one off event. It's not a lone wolf gunman or a madman or a few bad apples. What we see is a rising wave of coordinated violent attacks. Now that to me indicates that there would be a further upswing unless there is some kind of change in response. I think that I would expect there to be more events like that. Whether those events sway others to the cause is another question I suppose is there is something that we ought to be doing about it that we're not are firearms too easy to get.

I would hate to to to say anything about attacks by Muslim extremists because it's so far outside of my area but I would say that one thing that is clear to me in the present is that we can look at we get stories about anti-Semitic violence as at the tree of life shooting synagogue. We get stories about Islamophobic violence in Christchurch. We get stories about political violence that Coast Guard officer who is arrested with all the hit lists of political enemies. But what we don't often see are stories that connect all three of those perpetrators together in a common ideology. But all of them were white power activists they used the same rhetoric the same ideology said this is this is not just coincidence. No. And what we see if we put those stories together is a rising wave of activity. It's not a single one off event. It's not a lone wolf gunman or a madman or a few bad apples. What we see is a rising wave of coordinated violent attacks. Now that to me indicates that there would be a further upswing unless there is some kind of change in response. I think that I would expect there to be more events like that. Whether those events sway others to the cause is another question I suppose is there is something that we ought to be doing about it that we're not are firearms too easy to get.

Would would more restrictions on that help. Of course. These people are ex military. They probably would have no trouble getting a hold of guns about what we did.

Would would more restrictions on that help. Of course. These people are ex military. They probably would have no trouble getting a hold of guns about what we did.

Right. I think that the thing that could change is the way that people think about what this is. I think that really a response to white power violence informed by the history of this movement would involve a trans scalar difference meaning I know. So what I mean is we have to think about this in the way that we imagine and react to the news stories in the way that we name the ideology and the gunman and the way that we consume those stories. But this this would need to go all the way up to things like juror education prosecutorial strategy law military and FBI resources and response it would need to be a change about the entire kind of set of mechanisms that have responded to this violence in the past.

Right. I think that the thing that could change is the way that people think about what this is. I think that really a response to white power violence informed by the history of this movement would involve a trans scalar difference meaning I know. So what I mean is we have to think about this in the way that we imagine and react to the news stories in the way that we name the ideology and the gunman and the way that we consume those stories. But this this would need to go all the way up to things like juror education prosecutorial strategy law military and FBI resources and response it would need to be a change about the entire kind of set of mechanisms that have responded to this violence in the past.

Is there is there a code that would help you identify who in your community may actually be part of this social movement.

Is there is there a code that would help you identify who in your community may actually be part of this social movement.

If you have concerns in your community the best thing to do is report to one of the watchdog organizations. So the Southern Poverty Law Center the ADL the Anti Defamation League they track this. They track and they keep a database of all of the things you like. If you have an incident of graffiti in your neighborhood or you see a suspected hate group symbol or recruiting poster if you can just send those things in that lets watchdog groups see what's happening and kind of keep tabs on trends. And it also creates the archive that historians can later go back and answer some of these questions. That's what you really want me to.

If you have concerns in your community the best thing to do is report to one of the watchdog organizations. So the Southern Poverty Law Center the ADL the Anti Defamation League they track this. They track and they keep a database of all of the things you like. If you have an incident of graffiti in your neighborhood or you see a suspected hate group symbol or recruiting poster if you can just send those things in that lets watchdog groups see what's happening and kind of keep tabs on trends. And it also creates the archive that historians can later go back and answer some of these questions. That's what you really want me to.

I mean being serious here is you're saying when you when you see this kind of white power graffiti. Don't dismiss this as just the antics of some dyspeptic teenager. This is part of an organized movement.

I mean being serious here is you're saying when you when you see this kind of white power graffiti. Don't dismiss this as just the antics of some dyspeptic teenager. This is part of an organized movement.

I'm saying it can be part of an organized movement. It often is part of an organized movement. And we have aired too far in the other direction of ignoring and minimizing and making these into individual actions when when they're not in understanding them as part of a social movement could create an opportunity for change.

I'm saying it can be part of an organized movement. It often is part of an organized movement. And we have aired too far in the other direction of ignoring and minimizing and making these into individual actions when when they're not in understanding them as part of a social movement could create an opportunity for change.

What do you think about the way our current president has treated this issue.

What do you think about the way our current president has treated this issue.

I think we have such a clear counter example in the prime minister of New Zealand who came out very clearly after the Christchurch attacks in condemning white power action and trying to understand what it was and his job is good in my power to me. At various moments he seems to at various moments. He does not. I would not.

I think we have such a clear counter example in the prime minister of New Zealand who came out very clearly after the Christchurch attacks in condemning white power action and trying to understand what it was and his job is good in my power to me. At various moments he seems to at various moments. He does not. I would not.

Are they a A what. Numerous enough political constituency that he would have to deliberately cater to them in some way.

Are they a A what. Numerous enough political constituency that he would have to deliberately cater to them in some way.

I don't know. But let me say this. The the reason I use the phrase white power instead of white nationalism is because I think there's a lot of confusion when people say nationalism about it being somehow patriotic like overzealous patriotism or something. The nation in white nationalism is not the United States. The Nation and white nationalism is the Aryan Nation. It's a transnational white polity. And at least after 1983 White Nationalism is not interested in preserving the United States. It's interested in creating a transnational white nation that is a fundamentally . Yeah. It's a fundamentally radical project that is fundamentally opposed to the United States as a as a democracy. So for a sitting politician to embrace it is deeply concerning. Well he hasn't embraced it though has he. No no not that I know. Has any sitting politician embraced it? You know this is getting outside of my area. I think I would just say that what the history really shows us is that understanding how radical it is is deeply deeply important. I think when people hear white nationalism what they're thinking of is often the Klan in the 1920s.

I don't know. But let me say this. The the reason I use the phrase white power instead of white nationalism is because I think there's a lot of confusion when people say nationalism about it being somehow patriotic like overzealous patriotism or something. The nation in white nationalism is not the United States. The Nation and white nationalism is the Aryan Nation. It's a transnational white polity. And at least after 1983 White Nationalism is not interested in preserving the United States. It's interested in creating a transnational white nation that is a fundamentally . Yeah. It's a fundamentally radical project that is fundamentally opposed to the United States as a as a democracy. So for a sitting politician to embrace it is deeply concerning. Well he hasn't embraced it though has he. No no not that I know. Has any sitting politician embraced it? You know this is getting outside of my area. I think I would just say that what the history really shows us is that understanding how radical it is is deeply deeply important. I think when people hear white nationalism what they're thinking of is often the Klan in the 1920s.

That's the one that most people study. Is that the White separatists who I've talked to them they say they want a a homeland someplace it's completely voluntary we're just going to all agree to move en masse to some remote area.

That's the one that most people study. Is that the White separatists who I've talked to them they say they want a a homeland someplace it's completely voluntary we're just going to all agree to move en masse to some remote area.

Yes live with ourselves.

Yes live with ourselves.

So here's the thing about that that in the Turner Diaries and in the ideology of this movement is usually a first step towards a longer project that is meant to ensure not only a white homeland but also a white nation and then a white world. That's the vision.

So here's the thing about that that in the Turner Diaries and in the ideology of this movement is usually a first step towards a longer project that is meant to ensure not only a white homeland but also a white nation and then a white world. That's the vision.

So they're basically saying that the only goal is ethnic cleansing. Yes that's the vision of the American style.

So they're basically saying that the only goal is ethnic cleansing. Yes that's the vision of the American style.

And I mean what I would say is that in any social movement in the 20th century there's a lot of disagreement about exactly how this would work exactly how far people want to go but it's important to understand that the heart of the discourse is really in the fundamental betrayal of the state in the fundamental unrighteous ness of the federal government. Right. That's the main enemy seen by the movement. So they're not it's not ever a movement that could become a political party in the way that we see in Europe because the vision is so fundamentally radical.

And I mean what I would say is that in any social movement in the 20th century there's a lot of disagreement about exactly how this would work exactly how far people want to go but it's important to understand that the heart of the discourse is really in the fundamental betrayal of the state in the fundamental unrighteous ness of the federal government. Right. That's the main enemy seen by the movement. So they're not it's not ever a movement that could become a political party in the way that we see in Europe because the vision is so fundamentally radical.

How do you feel about this as a blond white person yourself.

How do you feel about this as a blond white person yourself.

I mean I'm not sure how to do you mean like why did I choose the projector.

I mean I'm not sure how to do you mean like why did I choose the projector.

Oh just me because I'll tell you how I feel I mean I did have commentary about this about a month ago. I don't want to be called white anymore. Any time I google the word white the words that come up after it are not good.

Oh just me because I'll tell you how I feel I mean I did have commentary about this about a month ago. I don't want to be called white anymore. Any time I google the word white the words that come up after it are not good.

Well I suppose that I would say is that I teach a lot of classes about American history. And it's a very interesting thing to think about what white has meant at any given moment. You can think about in early America. White was sort of a political category. That wasn't yet infused with all of the racial pseudoscience get in the eighteen hundreds. And then there's this long history that goes through phrenology and the eugenics movement and all of the things we are more familiar with in the late 20th century like the civil rights movement and these separatist movements in the 80s and 90s. I think for all for all people there's really a set of questions about how we're going to reconcile with this very long and deep history of white supremacy that has sort of built our nation in ways that are clear to us and in ways that are subsumed.

Well I suppose that I would say is that I teach a lot of classes about American history. And it's a very interesting thing to think about what white has meant at any given moment. You can think about in early America. White was sort of a political category. That wasn't yet infused with all of the racial pseudoscience get in the eighteen hundreds. And then there's this long history that goes through phrenology and the eugenics movement and all of the things we are more familiar with in the late 20th century like the civil rights movement and these separatist movements in the 80s and 90s. I think for all for all people there's really a set of questions about how we're going to reconcile with this very long and deep history of white supremacy that has sort of built our nation in ways that are clear to us and in ways that are subsumed.

And that's part of what I'm trying to get out in the book and in my larger work.

And that's part of what I'm trying to get out in the book and in my larger work.

Kathleen Belew is the author of Bring the war home the White Power movement and paramilitary America. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Kathleen Belew is the author of Bring the war home the White Power movement and paramilitary America. Thank you very much. Thank you.

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