Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth, the legend, spontaneously generated, or so he says our super producer, mister Max Williams.

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth, the legend, spontaneously generated, or so he says our super producer, mister Max Williams.

Hello, I'm here and I grew out of cheese and bagels. That's very true. I mean, they definitely they created the circumstances in which for you to thrive. That's also true.

Hello, I'm here and I grew out of cheese and bagels. That's very true. I mean, they definitely they created the circumstances in which for you to thrive. That's also true.

And speaking of thriving circumstances, folks, I am over the Lamarckian Moon to introduce you to the one, the only, mister Noel Brown. Noel, how's it going.

And speaking of thriving circumstances, folks, I am over the Lamarckian Moon to introduce you to the one, the only, mister Noel Brown. Noel, how's it going.

It's going, my friend, It's going in a forward direction. It's about all we can hope for.

It's going, my friend, It's going in a forward direction. It's about all we can hope for.

And for the record, I am still going by.

And for the record, I am still going by.

Ben Bowleen indeed, and we are picking up where we left off on the topic of spontaneous generation courtesy of our research associated Extraordinary Doctor Z for a quick little recap. Previously on Ridiculous History, we left off introducing a new character to our not really a rogues gallery. What's the opp They're all stand up individuals. Jean Baptiste Lamark and his theory that was beginning to approach what we know as the kind of modern theory of evolution. He was from the school of thought that led to individuals like Charles Darwin with his insatiable appetite for all of God's creatures, and he also was referencing quite a bit Aristotle's Scala neturei, Aristotle being one of the first characters that we introduced, and his you know, kind of belief largely in the concept of life being generated from non living things. But we also mentioned that Aristotle also did understand as much as was possible, the idea that life generated from sexual reproduction. And so Jean Baptiste Lamark was trying his best to reconcile his views the idea of spontaneous generation and Aristotle's views that were espoused in that work Scala neturei, and created sort of a new theory that, like I said, largely resembled what we think of as the theory of evolution today, leading us to what the next step is in terms of other scientists who began to turn their high powered intellects toward the notion of spontaneous generation.

Ben Bowleen indeed, and we are picking up where we left off on the topic of spontaneous generation courtesy of our research associated Extraordinary Doctor Z for a quick little recap. Previously on Ridiculous History, we left off introducing a new character to our not really a rogues gallery. What's the opp They're all stand up individuals. Jean Baptiste Lamark and his theory that was beginning to approach what we know as the kind of modern theory of evolution. He was from the school of thought that led to individuals like Charles Darwin with his insatiable appetite for all of God's creatures, and he also was referencing quite a bit Aristotle's Scala neturei, Aristotle being one of the first characters that we introduced, and his you know, kind of belief largely in the concept of life being generated from non living things. But we also mentioned that Aristotle also did understand as much as was possible, the idea that life generated from sexual reproduction. And so Jean Baptiste Lamark was trying his best to reconcile his views the idea of spontaneous generation and Aristotle's views that were espoused in that work Scala neturei, and created sort of a new theory that, like I said, largely resembled what we think of as the theory of evolution today, leading us to what the next step is in terms of other scientists who began to turn their high powered intellects toward the notion of spontaneous generation.

Yes, and the idea of spontaneous generation at this point is the prevailing scientific theory to explain the origin of living things for several millennia, as we know. Please please please, fellow ridiculous historians, check out part one of this special two part series. We shout out Babylonia, We shout out the Shang Dynasty. We shout out folks like an axe amander of Malitius. We also are entering in in media arrests the exploration of science.

Yes, and the idea of spontaneous generation at this point is the prevailing scientific theory to explain the origin of living things for several millennia, as we know. Please please please, fellow ridiculous historians, check out part one of this special two part series. We shout out Babylonia, We shout out the Shang Dynasty. We shout out folks like an axe amander of Malitius. We also are entering in in media arrests the exploration of science.

So fast forwarding a handful of decades past the work of our buddy Jean Baptiste Lamarc, Let's turn our attention again to Italy and the Italian botanist Pierre Antonio Michelli, who in seventeen twenty nine describes nineteen hundred plants and nine hundred fung guy By a series of very specific characteristics, he was able to observe the formation of fungal spores that then led to the formation of fungi themselves. In order to do this, he did a very scientifically methodical series of tests involving melon slices.

So fast forwarding a handful of decades past the work of our buddy Jean Baptiste Lamarc, Let's turn our attention again to Italy and the Italian botanist Pierre Antonio Michelli, who in seventeen twenty nine describes nineteen hundred plants and nine hundred fung guy By a series of very specific characteristics, he was able to observe the formation of fungal spores that then led to the formation of fungi themselves. In order to do this, he did a very scientifically methodical series of tests involving melon slices.

He did, indeed, and the idea was reproduction. As we talked about previously, the origin of the scientific method is you observe something, you ask why it happens, You give your pitch on why you think it happens, You try to predict it, you test it, you get the information, you make conclusions. So this guy is practicing this, even if he doesn't call it scientific method quite at this point he is able to you enter that reproduction phase and he's creating the same type of fungus that he observed in the original spores. And with these observations, he says, come on, man, this doesn't just happen. It doesn't spontaneously generate. These living things come from somewhere. And he says, also, by the way, guys, I bet if you boiled broth in flask, which was a very common thing at the time, then it will somehow eliminate these living things. But if we don't seal them up when we cool them down, those broths are going to cloud. Something in the soup will go sour.

He did, indeed, and the idea was reproduction. As we talked about previously, the origin of the scientific method is you observe something, you ask why it happens, You give your pitch on why you think it happens, You try to predict it, you test it, you get the information, you make conclusions. So this guy is practicing this, even if he doesn't call it scientific method quite at this point he is able to you enter that reproduction phase and he's creating the same type of fungus that he observed in the original spores. And with these observations, he says, come on, man, this doesn't just happen. It doesn't spontaneously generate. These living things come from somewhere. And he says, also, by the way, guys, I bet if you boiled broth in flask, which was a very common thing at the time, then it will somehow eliminate these living things. But if we don't seal them up when we cool them down, those broths are going to cloud. Something in the soup will go sour.

Indeed, the soup is sour. Shout out to pet Cemetery ruined me as a kid, really really scary. You know. It's interesting though, too. Ben. You mentioned the idea of boiling things in flasks, and I'm always kind of blown away by the fact that a lot of the basic materials that you find in science labs today are very similar to the types of materials you would find in science labs of yesteryear, things like erlin Meyer flasks and graduated cylinders. And while there there certainly have been, you know, small changes, largely there are very similar pieces of equipment today that are highly low tech, you know, and that is what it takes to do some of these trials. It doesn't necessarily require, you know, high levels of technology.

Indeed, the soup is sour. Shout out to pet Cemetery ruined me as a kid, really really scary. You know. It's interesting though, too. Ben. You mentioned the idea of boiling things in flasks, and I'm always kind of blown away by the fact that a lot of the basic materials that you find in science labs today are very similar to the types of materials you would find in science labs of yesteryear, things like erlin Meyer flasks and graduated cylinders. And while there there certainly have been, you know, small changes, largely there are very similar pieces of equipment today that are highly low tech, you know, and that is what it takes to do some of these trials. It doesn't necessarily require, you know, high levels of technology.

Yeah, shout out to my favorite of the flask, the earl Meyer, which I only remember from a brief, brief interaction in high school chemistry. It's true, though, your point about finding what works and keeping it around the The discoveries of our buddy Mitchelle allowed the belief in spontaneous generation to persist because when he was boiling these flasks, he said, what, who these things still somehow create life. The microscope became available, i'd say for early adopters in about the six late sixteen hundreds, late seventeenth century, sixteen eighties, and people started going ham on this. Folks like the influential French naturalist George Louis Le Claire Conte de Beau.

Yeah, shout out to my favorite of the flask, the earl Meyer, which I only remember from a brief, brief interaction in high school chemistry. It's true, though, your point about finding what works and keeping it around the The discoveries of our buddy Mitchelle allowed the belief in spontaneous generation to persist because when he was boiling these flasks, he said, what, who these things still somehow create life. The microscope became available, i'd say for early adopters in about the six late sixteen hundreds, late seventeenth century, sixteen eighties, and people started going ham on this. Folks like the influential French naturalist George Louis Le Claire Conte de Beau.

I'm not going to say affoon not before.

I'm not going to say affoon not before.

Yeah, and they they concluded with microscopes, they concluded that there is some sort of ever present life general rating force that simply occurs, like there's a vibe to certain types of inorganic non living matter, and if you leave them alone, under the right circumstances, they will create living things.

Yeah, and they they concluded with microscopes, they concluded that there is some sort of ever present life general rating force that simply occurs, like there's a vibe to certain types of inorganic non living matter, and if you leave them alone, under the right circumstances, they will create living things.

Right. So, they are still to some degree leaning on the spontaneous generation concepts, but it is definitely advanced. But they do still seem to think that that cloudy broth is essentially creating something new from what was there before, as opposed to having new elements introduced into the equation. Right. Yeah.

Right. So, they are still to some degree leaning on the spontaneous generation concepts, but it is definitely advanced. But they do still seem to think that that cloudy broth is essentially creating something new from what was there before, as opposed to having new elements introduced into the equation. Right. Yeah.

And it's funny, isn't it, because we see echoes of this in modern discourse about how life, like the provenance of life, the provenance of living things, the idea of spontaneous generation only becomes more interesting as humans learn more about the world around us. Right, So, the idea of Earth as this sort of lottery level fight against probability. We know amino acids were around, did lightning strike them? Shout out to of course, throwing copper by live or classic stone cold, classic yeah, or did did some other iteration of life arrive on the planet and find the environment somehow was suitable.

And it's funny, isn't it, because we see echoes of this in modern discourse about how life, like the provenance of life, the provenance of living things, the idea of spontaneous generation only becomes more interesting as humans learn more about the world around us. Right, So, the idea of Earth as this sort of lottery level fight against probability. We know amino acids were around, did lightning strike them? Shout out to of course, throwing copper by live or classic stone cold, classic yeah, or did did some other iteration of life arrive on the planet and find the environment somehow was suitable.

Yeah, exactly, No, that's right, And I mean we are starting to. Yet It's very interesting to me because I mean, we have clearly in the past scientific inquiries that we've discussed, like leading up to this point, come to these correct conclusions when it comes to larger creatures, larger organic life forms, like the whole flies and meat situation, they very quickly realized through scientific method that it wasn't the rotting meat that was creating the flies, but creating a situation that attracted flies who would then lay their eggs on the meat, and then the flies would arise from the patching of the eggs the maggots and then creating more flies. And yet they still seem to not be applying that concept directly to some of these more microscopic elements. Yeah, right on.

Yeah, exactly, No, that's right, And I mean we are starting to. Yet It's very interesting to me because I mean, we have clearly in the past scientific inquiries that we've discussed, like leading up to this point, come to these correct conclusions when it comes to larger creatures, larger organic life forms, like the whole flies and meat situation, they very quickly realized through scientific method that it wasn't the rotting meat that was creating the flies, but creating a situation that attracted flies who would then lay their eggs on the meat, and then the flies would arise from the patching of the eggs the maggots and then creating more flies. And yet they still seem to not be applying that concept directly to some of these more microscopic elements. Yeah, right on.

A rose is a rose is a rose, A flies of flies a fly.

A rose is a rose is a rose, A flies of flies a fly.

So life is life is life, you know what I mean. But they're not there yet. And I guess I understand that we are looking at this stuff through hindsight where we're like, of course they're the same, but they don't. They're not there yet.

So life is life is life, you know what I mean. But they're not there yet. And I guess I understand that we are looking at this stuff through hindsight where we're like, of course they're the same, but they don't. They're not there yet.

So there's this Italian I'd call him a man of letters, a man of insurance. He's a priest, which gives him the social opportunity to also be a biologists and dabble in physiology. His name Lazaro Spallanzani. He is the guy who who says, look, buddy, need him. It doesn't These microbes, these small versions of life. They don't just come out of boiling broth because I can seal broth in a container, and if I seal it, then I don't see the microbes because raising the temperature of the liquid kills most of the small things living in there. They're always like it's almost like a mystery novel where you see people getting very close to the answer and the answer is always under their nose. So our buddy Lazarro says, here's what's happening. Microbes are moving through the air and they can be killed through essentially altering their environment through boiling the water. And over time, there were many other observations that demonstrated this. It was a panopoly of weird experiments, probably its own podcast series. Over time, the main thing we need to know ridiculous historians is that these observations showed one thing biological reproduction is based on existing complex structures rather than on mud or dead material or you know, hiding grapes from your parents in a cellar.

So there's this Italian I'd call him a man of letters, a man of insurance. He's a priest, which gives him the social opportunity to also be a biologists and dabble in physiology. His name Lazaro Spallanzani. He is the guy who who says, look, buddy, need him. It doesn't These microbes, these small versions of life. They don't just come out of boiling broth because I can seal broth in a container, and if I seal it, then I don't see the microbes because raising the temperature of the liquid kills most of the small things living in there. They're always like it's almost like a mystery novel where you see people getting very close to the answer and the answer is always under their nose. So our buddy Lazarro says, here's what's happening. Microbes are moving through the air and they can be killed through essentially altering their environment through boiling the water. And over time, there were many other observations that demonstrated this. It was a panopoly of weird experiments, probably its own podcast series. Over time, the main thing we need to know ridiculous historians is that these observations showed one thing biological reproduction is based on existing complex structures rather than on mud or dead material or you know, hiding grapes from your parents in a cellar.

Well, it's interesting we're talking about broth here because you know I buy I'm sure you do too, Ben buy a lot of chicken broth and beef broth, and typically that stuff if it's shelf stable because you buy it at the store, it's not refrigerated, but the moment you open it, you have introduced something into that situation. And if you're refrigerating it, it's not gonna do its thing for a long time, but even refrigerated, it will eventually those microbes that are introduced in at the moment you open it and expose it to the air. We don't have the kind of refrigeration that we have today in the late seventeen hundreds.

Well, it's interesting we're talking about broth here because you know I buy I'm sure you do too, Ben buy a lot of chicken broth and beef broth, and typically that stuff if it's shelf stable because you buy it at the store, it's not refrigerated, but the moment you open it, you have introduced something into that situation. And if you're refrigerating it, it's not gonna do its thing for a long time, but even refrigerated, it will eventually those microbes that are introduced in at the moment you open it and expose it to the air. We don't have the kind of refrigeration that we have today in the late seventeen hundreds.

That's true. We'll also explain at the end that raising grape reference if we have time. More proof of this idea came about in eighteen thirty seven, in an exercise of independent parallel thought. A German physiologist named Theodore Schwan and a French inventor and physicist named Charles Cagnard de la Tour. They discover the geese is a thing that is alive and reproduces, and they said, look, you get your microscopes, this new hot thing, the microscope. If you look at yeast when it is part of fermentation, then you see that yeast cells divide the way that a living cell would divide. And if we put sterile air in there, if we don't allow yeast into you know, our weird barrels or vats or erlami or flask or whatever, then fermentation doesn't start.

That's true. We'll also explain at the end that raising grape reference if we have time. More proof of this idea came about in eighteen thirty seven, in an exercise of independent parallel thought. A German physiologist named Theodore Schwan and a French inventor and physicist named Charles Cagnard de la Tour. They discover the geese is a thing that is alive and reproduces, and they said, look, you get your microscopes, this new hot thing, the microscope. If you look at yeast when it is part of fermentation, then you see that yeast cells divide the way that a living cell would divide. And if we put sterile air in there, if we don't allow yeast into you know, our weird barrels or vats or erlami or flask or whatever, then fermentation doesn't start.

Right because fermentation is essentially like a harnessing of this kind of process where it's like there's good bacteria that get in there and allow this chemical reaction to take place and it yields something different. It's this interesting. I always find it neat to see historically how people harness this kind of stuff before they really understand the science of it. They just know it works.

Right because fermentation is essentially like a harnessing of this kind of process where it's like there's good bacteria that get in there and allow this chemical reaction to take place and it yields something different. It's this interesting. I always find it neat to see historically how people harness this kind of stuff before they really understand the science of it. They just know it works.

Yeah, exactly, And that's that's a good observation. The fancy word for that would be a heuristic. We don't have to know why a certain process delivers favorable results. We simply obey the process. These are the questions folks like folks like Dutch scientist Anthony van Lewinhuk excuse my pronunciation.

Yeah, exactly, And that's that's a good observation. The fancy word for that would be a heuristic. We don't have to know why a certain process delivers favorable results. We simply obey the process. These are the questions folks like folks like Dutch scientist Anthony van Lewinhuk excuse my pronunciation.

Yeah, he is largely known, you know, by many in the scientific community to be the father of microbiology, and he I believe he created one of the very first microscopes. If not like is considered to be the inventor of the microscope, because I think that was another thing where it was a lens. Everyone already knew what a telescope was, so there was a lot of parallel thinking involved in the creation of the microscope. It's more about a use case than it is like creating something from whole cloth, right right.

Yeah, he is largely known, you know, by many in the scientific community to be the father of microbiology, and he I believe he created one of the very first microscopes. If not like is considered to be the inventor of the microscope, because I think that was another thing where it was a lens. Everyone already knew what a telescope was, so there was a lot of parallel thinking involved in the creation of the microscope. It's more about a use case than it is like creating something from whole cloth, right right.

It's invented in in or around fifteen ninety so our buddy Luinoake was born in sixteen thirty two or so, is an early adopter. But the microscope's origin comes from a Dutch father and son team. As far as we know, the originators of the of caveats because it's science. The originators of the predecessor of a modern microscope are Hans and Zacharias Johnson Jansen Jansen exactly.

It's invented in in or around fifteen ninety so our buddy Luinoake was born in sixteen thirty two or so, is an early adopter. But the microscope's origin comes from a Dutch father and son team. As far as we know, the originators of the of caveats because it's science. The originators of the predecessor of a modern microscope are Hans and Zacharias Johnson Jansen Jansen exactly.

But lewinhak was an advancer of microscopic technology. He created I believe twenty five different designs for single lens microscopes. And he also, you know, you cut I guess, for lack of a better term, more than five hundred different kinds of optical lenses. So he was a very, very big deal in terms of advancing that technology that had been already invented.

But lewinhak was an advancer of microscopic technology. He created I believe twenty five different designs for single lens microscopes. And he also, you know, you cut I guess, for lack of a better term, more than five hundred different kinds of optical lenses. So he was a very, very big deal in terms of advancing that technology that had been already invented.

And so our buddy Tony as we'll call him, he says, look at this, I can see all kinds of things with these special lenses invented just a few decades before I came in the game. And I see that I can explain what is happening with this conundrum of boiled broth, right or boiling broth, And I can see that certain small spherical globules respond differently in cold broth versus heated broth, or in the presence of heated air. And he is what he's really doing is interrogating one of the great assumptions of the concept of spontaneous generation. Spontaneous generation proponents argue that there must be oxygen, there must be air around for generation to observe.

And so our buddy Tony as we'll call him, he says, look at this, I can see all kinds of things with these special lenses invented just a few decades before I came in the game. And I see that I can explain what is happening with this conundrum of boiled broth, right or boiling broth, And I can see that certain small spherical globules respond differently in cold broth versus heated broth, or in the presence of heated air. And he is what he's really doing is interrogating one of the great assumptions of the concept of spontaneous generation. Spontaneous generation proponents argue that there must be oxygen, there must be air around for generation to observe.

So aration right yielding generation.

So aration right yielding generation.

You're right, So, going back to part one of our series, the most famous example, you wrap bread or cheese and a rag and leave it in a cellar. The argument there seems to be that if this stuff is sealed off from the environment, then the mice or the rats will not grow. And with all this he concludes, Look, he is probably killing some of these living things that we can't see. And for him this is like a oh my gosh, this is so cool. I don't know if we want to sound cute, but Max, this is like the end of the third act of Usual Suspects where they figure out who they killer is, and the killer is the killer is the germs. It's the things you cannot see.

You're right, So, going back to part one of our series, the most famous example, you wrap bread or cheese and a rag and leave it in a cellar. The argument there seems to be that if this stuff is sealed off from the environment, then the mice or the rats will not grow. And with all this he concludes, Look, he is probably killing some of these living things that we can't see. And for him this is like a oh my gosh, this is so cool. I don't know if we want to sound cute, but Max, this is like the end of the third act of Usual Suspects where they figure out who they killer is, and the killer is the killer is the germs. It's the things you cannot see.

Oh.

Oh.

People are still debating over the authenticity of the spontaneous generation idea, and it goes all the way up to like we said in part one, it goes all the way up to the mid nineteenth century. I think it doesn't get put to rest until like the eighteen fifties.

People are still debating over the authenticity of the spontaneous generation idea, and it goes all the way up to like we said in part one, it goes all the way up to the mid nineteenth century. I think it doesn't get put to rest until like the eighteen fifties.

That's absolutely right. That debate was still very much alive. In France. There was a French naturalist who is very interested in this question, Felix Archimede Pouchet, who was in fact a very large booster for the concept of spontaneous generation, and he started to challenge the views of Swan as well as Louis Pasteur, who we know being the father of pasteurization and another hugely influential figure in this field. Both of those folks were into the idea of germ theory, which is very new at the time. They believe that microorganisms and germs arose from parents of the same species, and the germs were everywhere, including in the air and on inanimate matter. Pouchet, however, who was a big deal in the field of animal physiology, he believed that living things originated from inanimate matter and including air. Rather than these living microbes and bacteria being present, he believed they sprang forth from these elemental materials. He called the process heterogenesis.

That's absolutely right. That debate was still very much alive. In France. There was a French naturalist who is very interested in this question, Felix Archimede Pouchet, who was in fact a very large booster for the concept of spontaneous generation, and he started to challenge the views of Swan as well as Louis Pasteur, who we know being the father of pasteurization and another hugely influential figure in this field. Both of those folks were into the idea of germ theory, which is very new at the time. They believe that microorganisms and germs arose from parents of the same species, and the germs were everywhere, including in the air and on inanimate matter. Pouchet, however, who was a big deal in the field of animal physiology, he believed that living things originated from inanimate matter and including air. Rather than these living microbes and bacteria being present, he believed they sprang forth from these elemental materials. He called the process heterogenesis.

Ah, yes, evolving from different things.

Ah, yes, evolving from different things.

Right.

Right.

It's eighteen fifty eight, and our buddy is contesting Tony's results, and he says, he says, look, I've done the same experiments, right, And our buddy, Louis Pasteur writes to Bouchet in eighteen fifty nine and says, hey, man, oh, my cat's shouting us out.

It's eighteen fifty eight, and our buddy is contesting Tony's results, and he says, he says, look, I've done the same experiments, right, And our buddy, Louis Pasteur writes to Bouchet in eighteen fifty nine and says, hey, man, oh, my cat's shouting us out.

Let's get in.

Let's get in.

And he says, he says, hey man, hey, Pouchet, you know I get you. You're not a dummy. I respect your belief in spontaneous generation. But I can't really agree with your conclusions because you didn't have the right methodology or a poor setup.

And he says, he says, hey man, hey, Pouchet, you know I get you. You're not a dummy. I respect your belief in spontaneous generation. But I can't really agree with your conclusions because you didn't have the right methodology or a poor setup.

Well, and we know that the story of scientific discovery, and you know, to this day is largely about different scientists, different schools of thought, clashing with one another, and then usually hopefully over time, given enough analysis of various results, a kind of more or less clear winner is determined. And we are in an era right now where we see who ended up on the right history. It's Pasteur and Schwan, but we have somebody in Pouchet who is holding on to the old ways that have been kind of tempered with some more modern thinking. But clearly he is in the wrong here. But this was very much still a civil scientific debate.

Well, and we know that the story of scientific discovery, and you know, to this day is largely about different scientists, different schools of thought, clashing with one another, and then usually hopefully over time, given enough analysis of various results, a kind of more or less clear winner is determined. And we are in an era right now where we see who ended up on the right history. It's Pasteur and Schwan, but we have somebody in Pouchet who is holding on to the old ways that have been kind of tempered with some more modern thinking. But clearly he is in the wrong here. But this was very much still a civil scientific debate.

Do you think that I don't. I don't feel like it's a highlander thing. I think these folks are all trying to figure out stuff together.

Do you think that I don't. I don't feel like it's a highlander thing. I think these folks are all trying to figure out stuff together.

That's what I mean. But it's it's well, I think that's you could argue that that's the case with any kind of scientific discussion, But they oftentimes are a little bit cantankerous, you know, And you'll have people on different sides of an issue, basically thinking the other people are idiots, and you're right. There was a very diplomatic approach that Pasteur took when writing to Pouchet. But I don't know. It just seems to me like Pouchet was on the wrong side of history here and it would ultimately be disproven. But it probably wasn't particularly productive for Pastor to call him an idiot because he was so well respected. Right.

That's what I mean. But it's it's well, I think that's you could argue that that's the case with any kind of scientific discussion, But they oftentimes are a little bit cantankerous, you know, And you'll have people on different sides of an issue, basically thinking the other people are idiots, and you're right. There was a very diplomatic approach that Pasteur took when writing to Pouchet. But I don't know. It just seems to me like Pouchet was on the wrong side of history here and it would ultimately be disproven. But it probably wasn't particularly productive for Pastor to call him an idiot because he was so well respected. Right.

Pastor obviously did not call him an idiot. So Pouchet, in the course of this dialogue publishes his primary, what we call his his opus right, his major scientific work, in eighteen fifty nine. It's in French. There are English translations. It's called Heterogenesis, or Treatise on Spontaneous Generation, which I would argue is one of the one of the last do not do not go gentle into that dark night kind.

Pastor obviously did not call him an idiot. So Pouchet, in the course of this dialogue publishes his primary, what we call his his opus right, his major scientific work, in eighteen fifty nine. It's in French. There are English translations. It's called Heterogenesis, or Treatise on Spontaneous Generation, which I would argue is one of the one of the last do not do not go gentle into that dark night kind.

Of holding on, yeah, to the idea of a spontaneous generation of.

Of holding on, yeah, to the idea of a spontaneous generation of.

This idea, and in this Pouchet says that he believes eggs of adult organisms, whatever they may be, are spontaneously generated. And he adds a little bit of judge to it, and he says, not the adults themselves, it's the eggs they're created. And this goes all the way to one of the supreme courts of nerds at the time, the French Academy of Sciences. They favor pale pasture, and they say, look in it's January eighteen sixty. We can give a prize for the detailed experimentation to solve this matter once and forever. Pasteur, as history shows us, did participate in this competition and did, by the way, win the competition. Want to shout out once again our friends at the Society for Industrial Microbiology and Biotechnology who wrote just an absolute awesome primer for us the lay people. Give a shout out to our editor in chief for that, Melanie more Meal.

This idea, and in this Pouchet says that he believes eggs of adult organisms, whatever they may be, are spontaneously generated. And he adds a little bit of judge to it, and he says, not the adults themselves, it's the eggs they're created. And this goes all the way to one of the supreme courts of nerds at the time, the French Academy of Sciences. They favor pale pasture, and they say, look in it's January eighteen sixty. We can give a prize for the detailed experimentation to solve this matter once and forever. Pasteur, as history shows us, did participate in this competition and did, by the way, win the competition. Want to shout out once again our friends at the Society for Industrial Microbiology and Biotechnology who wrote just an absolute awesome primer for us the lay people. Give a shout out to our editor in chief for that, Melanie more Meal.

That's right. And so this competition is almost like a Iron Chef type situation, and essentially the prize for the victory at this iron chef level competition was the publication of his results as being the kind of end all be all of this particular argument. Mm hmm. Yeah.

That's right. And so this competition is almost like a Iron Chef type situation, and essentially the prize for the victory at this iron chef level competition was the publication of his results as being the kind of end all be all of this particular argument. Mm hmm. Yeah.

And if you have listened to part one, hopefully you have, folks, you're going to be familiar with some of the methodology. Here. We're going to cut past the seaweed. We'll round rob in this pasteor pasteor absolutely rocked the old spontaneous growth suptaneous growth question. He had his number one observations and he proved that bacteria was something that could be an intervening variable. And he also proved that if you wrote moved it, then the soup didn't get cloudy.

And if you have listened to part one, hopefully you have, folks, you're going to be familiar with some of the methodology. Here. We're going to cut past the seaweed. We'll round rob in this pasteor pasteor absolutely rocked the old spontaneous growth suptaneous growth question. He had his number one observations and he proved that bacteria was something that could be an intervening variable. And he also proved that if you wrote moved it, then the soup didn't get cloudy.

I'm keeping that very eye level. That's right. And he cites some of the big names that we've mentioned thus far, including Needum and Spalenzani because from those experiments, he said that it was known that soup that was exposed to the air spoiled bacteria grew. However, containers of soup that had been boiled for one hour and were then sealed remained sterile. However, boiling for only a few minutes wasn't enough to kill all the bacteria, therefore sterilizing the soup. Pasture had demonstrated that the dust collected by drawing air through a single cotton ball had enough cultures of bacteria contained within it to do the job. There were large numbers of these. He knew that bacteria was, in fact, because of this observation, present in the air and could only be filtered out by using the cotton ball. They could be removed from the air and held on the cotton ball. He also knew the bacteria could settle out on the walls of a bent glass tube as air was passed through it.

I'm keeping that very eye level. That's right. And he cites some of the big names that we've mentioned thus far, including Needum and Spalenzani because from those experiments, he said that it was known that soup that was exposed to the air spoiled bacteria grew. However, containers of soup that had been boiled for one hour and were then sealed remained sterile. However, boiling for only a few minutes wasn't enough to kill all the bacteria, therefore sterilizing the soup. Pasture had demonstrated that the dust collected by drawing air through a single cotton ball had enough cultures of bacteria contained within it to do the job. There were large numbers of these. He knew that bacteria was, in fact, because of this observation, present in the air and could only be filtered out by using the cotton ball. They could be removed from the air and held on the cotton ball. He also knew the bacteria could settle out on the walls of a bent glass tube as air was passed through it.

So that's number one Again. Number two is the question, is there indeed some sort of life force present in air or oxygen or nitrogen, et cetera that can cause bacteria to develop spontaneously? Is there a means of allowing air to enter a container, and if so, would that not allow any life force to enter? But is there a way to allow these things to exist without allowing bacteria? And could we, says Pasteur, build a wall. His hypothesis three is that there is no such life force inherent in the chemicals that make up air. So a container of sterilized broth will remain sterile even if exposed to air, so long as you don't have the bacteria entering the flask. The flies are what create the flies.

So that's number one Again. Number two is the question, is there indeed some sort of life force present in air or oxygen or nitrogen, et cetera that can cause bacteria to develop spontaneously? Is there a means of allowing air to enter a container, and if so, would that not allow any life force to enter? But is there a way to allow these things to exist without allowing bacteria? And could we, says Pasteur, build a wall. His hypothesis three is that there is no such life force inherent in the chemicals that make up air. So a container of sterilized broth will remain sterile even if exposed to air, so long as you don't have the bacteria entering the flask. The flies are what create the flies.

Air is just a medium, you know, for transmitting the stuff that creates the other stuff, Right.

Air is just a medium, you know, for transmitting the stuff that creates the other stuff, Right.

Yeah, one hundred percent. So nol riddle, is this what is the prediction arrived at here?

Yeah, one hundred percent. So nol riddle, is this what is the prediction arrived at here?

He predicts that if there is no life force contained in air, which we have established, broth in a in that swan neck flask that we also described ought to remain sterile even if it is exposed to air, because any of the bacteria in the air is going to settle on the walls of the kind of the tapered portion of the flask. The neck broth and flasks plugged however, with cotton ought to remain sterile because the cotton filters the bacteria out of the air. So now let's put this to the test, and that is number five testing. As we mentioned earlier in part one, our buddy Louis Boyle's broth in these different shaped flask guests fellow nerds. One of them wasn't erle Meyer flask, just to shout out my high school chemist. So they sterilize the broth, they let it cool, and as they cool it, they get fresh air from the room drawn into the containers. And they don't seal any of the flask. They've just boiled it to sterilize it, and then they expose it to the outer environment. Some of them are open straight up, so anything present in that air, any bacteria, can get into it. The experimental that's our control group. The experimental group is using flask with those long, like you said, swan neck shapes s shaped. I guess they sort of have like different little little bends.

He predicts that if there is no life force contained in air, which we have established, broth in a in that swan neck flask that we also described ought to remain sterile even if it is exposed to air, because any of the bacteria in the air is going to settle on the walls of the kind of the tapered portion of the flask. The neck broth and flasks plugged however, with cotton ought to remain sterile because the cotton filters the bacteria out of the air. So now let's put this to the test, and that is number five testing. As we mentioned earlier in part one, our buddy Louis Boyle's broth in these different shaped flask guests fellow nerds. One of them wasn't erle Meyer flask, just to shout out my high school chemist. So they sterilize the broth, they let it cool, and as they cool it, they get fresh air from the room drawn into the containers. And they don't seal any of the flask. They've just boiled it to sterilize it, and then they expose it to the outer environment. Some of them are open straight up, so anything present in that air, any bacteria, can get into it. The experimental that's our control group. The experimental group is using flask with those long, like you said, swan neck shapes s shaped. I guess they sort of have like different little little bends.

Right, They got a clothes in them. Others are plugged with cotton, which is similar to our earlier gauze experiment, like a porous.

Right, They got a clothes in them. Others are plugged with cotton, which is similar to our earlier gauze experiment, like a porous.

Border which the flies in the meat right right, right right.

Border which the flies in the meat right right, right right.

And so he does this, he replicates, he uses several of these flasks in each of his groups, and some of his original flask get this. According to you know, your local freshman biology textbooks, some of them are still on display in France and are still sterile today.

And so he does this, he replicates, he uses several of these flasks in each of his groups, and some of his original flask get this. According to you know, your local freshman biology textbooks, some of them are still on display in France and are still sterile today.

Wow, that's pretty cool. So now we get to the data sets that are generated brought in flasks with the next opening straight up get spoiled because they're just directly in contact with the air that contains them. Some of these microbes they get the cloud. That's why they get cloudy. And this is evidence by a nasty odor, the cloudiness you described and previously clear broth, as well as upon microscopic examination, the presence of bacteria that can be observed visibly. However, broth in the s curve necked flasks didn't because there were these buffers against that stuff. Right, they were getting caught in the walls of the bendy parts of the flask. Then the broth at the bottom was spared right, Ugh, it was.

Wow, that's pretty cool. So now we get to the data sets that are generated brought in flasks with the next opening straight up get spoiled because they're just directly in contact with the air that contains them. Some of these microbes they get the cloud. That's why they get cloudy. And this is evidence by a nasty odor, the cloudiness you described and previously clear broth, as well as upon microscopic examination, the presence of bacteria that can be observed visibly. However, broth in the s curve necked flasks didn't because there were these buffers against that stuff. Right, they were getting caught in the walls of the bendy parts of the flask. Then the broth at the bottom was spared right, Ugh, it was.

It was a whole thing. What we what we do learn is the conclusion our buddy Louis says, look France science overall, there is no inherent life force in air. There are organisms so plenty in air. Organisms do not arise by spontaneous generation. If you have a if you have a lovely broth, right, then it's not going to automatically generate a bunch of people in line for soup.

It was a whole thing. What we what we do learn is the conclusion our buddy Louis says, look France science overall, there is no inherent life force in air. There are organisms so plenty in air. Organisms do not arise by spontaneous generation. If you have a if you have a lovely broth, right, then it's not going to automatically generate a bunch of people in line for soup.

Louise.

Louise.

Maybe we get close to end date on this one. Louis specific quotation wash life is a germ, and a germ is life. Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow of this simple experiment.

Maybe we get close to end date on this one. Louis specific quotation wash life is a germ, and a germ is life. Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow of this simple experiment.

Mic drop Indeed, we can dropped that bike. It took all of this experimentation to realize that, I mean, I know this is maybe oversimplifying, but that it is the same as the flies and maggots and meat experiments. You know, It's all about things being open and exposed to outside elements. Things aren't being created out of nothing. They are introduced to a situation because whatever the material is that's being spoiled or continued or whatever, attracts the contaminant.

Mic drop Indeed, we can dropped that bike. It took all of this experimentation to realize that, I mean, I know this is maybe oversimplifying, but that it is the same as the flies and maggots and meat experiments. You know, It's all about things being open and exposed to outside elements. Things aren't being created out of nothing. They are introduced to a situation because whatever the material is that's being spoiled or continued or whatever, attracts the contaminant.

And with that, folks, with great thanks to our spontaneously generating ridiculous historians, we cannot thank you enough for joining us. As you can tell, Max Noell and Doctor Z and yours truly are big big fans of Louis Pasteur for several reasons that we will explore in a future episode. We can't wait for you to hang out with us well. We examine some very strange sports in future future iterations of this show. In the meantime, big big, big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, and big big big thanks to our research associate Doctor Z. Absolute legend, absolute legend.

And with that, folks, with great thanks to our spontaneously generating ridiculous historians, we cannot thank you enough for joining us. As you can tell, Max Noell and Doctor Z and yours truly are big big fans of Louis Pasteur for several reasons that we will explore in a future episode. We can't wait for you to hang out with us well. We examine some very strange sports in future future iterations of this show. In the meantime, big big, big thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, and big big big thanks to our research associate Doctor Z. Absolute legend, absolute legend.

This guy indeed, thanks a lot, talk to Zee. Huge thanks to Max william superroducer extraordinaire as well as Christophraciotis and Eves Jeff Coats both here in spirit and Jonathan Strickland the Quizzer and Aj Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler.

This guy indeed, thanks a lot, talk to Zee. Huge thanks to Max william superroducer extraordinaire as well as Christophraciotis and Eves Jeff Coats both here in spirit and Jonathan Strickland the Quizzer and Aj Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler.

M Yes, AJ, Let's see you in a bit. Also, big big thanks to Gabe Luesier first of his name, probably don't fact check us, big big thanks to Alex Williams who can pose this track, and big big thanks to anyone who spontaneously generates a nice little review for us on what do they call it it, Apple podcast, Apple podcasts, whatever, podcast pod.

M Yes, AJ, Let's see you in a bit. Also, big big thanks to Gabe Luesier first of his name, probably don't fact check us, big big thanks to Alex Williams who can pose this track, and big big thanks to anyone who spontaneously generates a nice little review for us on what do they call it it, Apple podcast, Apple podcasts, whatever, podcast pod.

Choice, catcher of choice. Yeah, we we love that. It hopes people discover the show, and you know it may. It makes us feel feel good, so please do do that geez in the meantime. Thanks to you, Ben, and also with you Let's see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Choice, catcher of choice. Yeah, we we love that. It hopes people discover the show, and you know it may. It makes us feel feel good, so please do do that geez in the meantime. Thanks to you, Ben, and also with you Let's see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.