Pushkin. I'm Malcolm Gladwell and today on Revisionist History, I have a special treat I'm going to play for you an interview I did with an old friend and Pushkin co conspirator, Justin Richmond, who you may know from our music show Broken Record, which Justin has made happen since the beginning. But now Justin has his own gig. He's the creator and host of a new podcast called Started from the Bottom. It's a show about origin stories, particularly the origin stories of men and women of color, how they climbed their way up the ladder, the obstacles they overcame along the way. And for this episode that I'm about to play for you, I turned the tables on Justin and I interviewed him. We did it in front of a group of students and faculty at medgare Ever's College on the side of the Old Field in Brooklyn, New York. As someone of West Indian heritage, let me just say how gratified I was at the heavy West Indian turnout for this, And in good West Indian fashion, they asked some pretty good questions at the end too. So here we go my conversation with my good friend Justin Richmond. Hello, Hello, who's this on? Check? Check? A single race? So welcome. This is the first time I've ever done anything like this, and it is certainly the first live taping of Starter from the Bottom. So thank you so much for coming, Malcolm, thank you so much for doing this. Not at all, it's my pleasure, Justin. I've long dreamed of being on a stage with you. I can't imagine that's true, but it's very nice of you to say no. I think, well, I hope this is the start of many of these, Justin, But I think premise of today's is that I'm interviewing you, right, That's not our plan. Yeah, we want to get the Justin. We want to get the Justin Richmond origin stories, a little introduction in me. I guess, yeah, yeah, which I You know, I love these things because I've often I'm a firm believer that if you want to get to know somebody, even if they've done a lifetime of interesting things, if you just do the first twenty years, you get most of what you need. Right that it's a surprising how much you can glean from. So let's start. Let's do the Justin Richmond analysis, and I wanted to start with the thing we have in common. Now you might look at us and say, what on earth do they have in common? But we do have one very significant fact in common, which is we're both the product of by racial marriages. Yeah, and I wanted to start with that. First of all, you're more obviously by racial than me. I don't know how that happened. You. I'm a little more subtle. You yours. Your dad would say it's his jeans. So you're tell me about your parents. Let's start with those two. How did they meet? Justin start with that. They met at Compton Community College, So he grew up in Compton, and uh, and my mom was there for I don't even know why she was there, but she was. She was there. She was friends with someone there and so she was there. They met. Where did your mom grow up? My mom grew up in a city called El Monte, which is by Pasadena. My mom grew up on the racetrack. Her dad was a racehorse trainer, so she grew up on the racetrack. And yeah, they're they're very different people even to this day. And it might be because they've never seen them together. But my kids still cannot wrap their heads around that. My parents might be like, you know that there's any relationship between them or ever was you know, Uh, they were never together, they were never married, but yeah, like they liked they just liked each other, you know. So how long were they together off and on? About five years? Four years, So you have very few memories of the two of them, is in a couple very few early on, Like I remember being over at his house because I have two half brothers, so early on I remember being over there with them, going to Disneyland on occasion. Well, yeah, the memories are very sporadic. Early on, you know of them, and you're you're raised by your mom, raised a bit by both, but primarily by my mom. Yeah. And where are you grow in Long Beach or yes, in Long Beach And then at five, my mom moved to the city of Orange, which is in Orange County, which is about twenty minutes south of Long Beach. Yeah, yeah, what is Orange like Orange? As far as places in Orange County go, it's pretty diverse. There's a large Latino community there, but aside from the Latino population, it's overwhelmingly white. And that was a that was a change from even even having white parents, like even having like my mom being white and having that whole side of my family be white. I never thought of it that way until I showed up. You know, she moved there right before I started, a month before I started kindergarten. And I remember my first day at kindergarten. I rolled up and I had a ninety four, so I had a Power Rangers shirt on. I thought I was real cool, Power Rangers lunchbox. I really thought I was nervous, but I thought I was fresh. I thought it was good, right, And I'll never forget this kid who was in line in front of me, like looked back at me, and this is the first time. Like again, I'm like, I'm not really realizing the differences between us yet. But he turns around and looks at me, goes, are you poor? Are you poor? Yeah? Yeah yeah, And I was like like what do you what do you mean? And he's like, you look poor? Are you poor? And I was like what, you know, I was just deflated. I didn't know exactly what to think about it at the moment. I was. I was just deflated just because you know, you're five year old, You're going into kindergarten, you're trying to We had just moved and I thought it looked good, but apparently I looked poor. That's to remember his name, And should you tell your mom? Yes, I did that. I remember that. I remember I remember going home and talking to my mom and uh yeah. I mean that's when I think her hope was that it would take a little bit long from for those dynamic for that dynamic to set in right. But that's when we we had, like, you know, when she started talking to me about the fact that I am now at this overwhelmingly white place and many of the people I'm gonna be around are likely growing up, if not out and out racist, racist things being said in their household, they're going to be parodying those things back at that. So if I asked you, in saying middle school to how you would describe yourself racially, what would you have said? Black? I knew I was black, you just because because of my experience, Because of that experience going to the so you know, off, I would say, off and on. Between kindergarten and ninth grade, I was going to overwhelmingly white schools, and you know, these are places where I would get called nigger. You know, so when you getting called nigger, you know what you are, you know. And then I go talk to my dad about it. He go, wheah, well you are niggas. So but you know that was like his way of trying to be like, yeah, you are nigga, so yeah, you know. So I definitely knew what I was. I knew I was black. Um. And where it got well, I see where it got difficult was when probably in junior high, when it was teachers who I think sort of interacting with me differently because of my color, you know, like I had, I got in a lot of trouble because I grew locks, and I remember they wanted to kick me out of school. There was a there was a neo Nazi kid named name your name, all these people like on the bulleting board, where are you man? Right? And every day with him, you know, it was God back to Africa. And I mean it got to the point police got involved, you know, and he never got kicked out of school somehow. But um, but I would take the point in junior high as when teachers I started getting just weird comments from teachers and weird nothing I did was ever good enough. There's always a perception that I was lazy. And that's why when I think because I was I was always a smart kid, and because my dad played football, because I was so tall, I was always tall, the perception was always that I was going to go and be an athlete. But from early age, I realized I wanted to cut against that. Like I didn't want okay, cool, Yeah I can I can play ball. I can do that. But what I realized I really wanted was to show people. Like early on, I kind of got this um need to prove people wrong in me, and so I felt like I always wanted to be I always wanted to be the smartest person in the room at that point as a young kid, and I didn't always have the confidence that I was, but I deep deep somewhere I wanted to be. And by the time I got to junior high and the teachers were sort of I had these these odd interactions. I think that's when I started to That's when my my interest in education started to wane and my I would say, my pride and myself started to win. How many black teachers that you have in your public school experience, zero zero? You got something to do with it. I think that's a big thing, has a big part to do with that. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you got it. And that's the premise of my show. If you're not around, if you're not around people who look like you, who are successful, you know. And my dad, God bless him, you know, he was in the NFL, so to degree was a success. But my dad and I love him, but you know, he also like has a very small way of thinking, you know, and so I never really felt like I had someone what do you mean by a small way of thinking? For him, it was always like, yeah, just go be a cop, you know, Like that's sure money, Like you can go be a cop. You can get one hundred grand a year with over time, you can make like one twenty Like what are you doing with this college? Then? What are you doing with school? You know, like they didn't. He couldn't get that I wanted to be that. I wanted to be an educated brother. You know. He couldn't get it, I'd say, And a lot of my family didn't. It's difficult to talk about because I like, in so many ways they were successful, you know, but at the same time, I knew there was a level of life that I wanted to achieve that no one in my family had achieved. You know, my dad wanted me to go be a cop because he's like, that's guaranteed income, you can and you can do it. But I just had other aspirations. So it was a weird thing between growing up in a white world that didn't necessarily believe in me and growing up in, you know, my black family and a black world that had kind of had a way of thinking that wasn't they didn't understand what I was trying to do. Yeah, yeah, your dad's not He's not one hundred percent wrong being a police officer. I'm not saying you should have done it. I'm just saying, from his position being an LAPD officer, assuming that's what he's talking about, that is a good job. It's a great job. I mean in terms of, like if you look at just like income and like what you could provide for your family, Like, it's a great job. But it's the means of there's all an entire generation of largely black men who grew up in la for whom the LAPD was the stepping stone. I mean, you got a job in the LAPD, and then your kids got to go to college, I mean that was like he's reflecting something that was real, right, No, it was a real thing, And I don't At the time, I was very I was always upset when you bring it up. You know, now I understand why he did. But you know, when you have a dream and something you want to accomplish, hearing things like that don't and still confidence in you. Because I always have to hear these quess like, well, what if school doesn't work out? It's like, well, what do you mean? Was like, you know what, Like by the time I get to college and and I'm meeting people, I'm like, I can very much tell that this isn't their experience that they had, Like what a school doesn't work out? It was this expected you know. Is it your dad? Does he not think you're smart enough for college? Or does he think the obstacles facing a young black man are two high? What's his what's his theory? I don't know. My dad thinks he's the smartest man in the world, so and I think based he also thinks he has the greatest dream pool in the world, So I think so I think based on that, he knew I was very smart. That was his belief at least, but with my dad, I think it very much had to do again with like his perception of what was possible in the world. You know, he grew up in a place called you dream of Village and Content, which was a housing project that closed down because the soil was toxic. Like they didn't know it at the time, but the soil was toxic. So people were getting sick and cancer and dying, babies being born deformed. And I think it was also a sense of maybe his dreams were limited too or not. His dreams were big, but I would say his dreams were at some point, I say, his dreams are crushed as well. You know, my dad did get kicked out of the NFL. The story as it's been told to me, So my dad got drafted by the Colts and eighty four, I want to say eighty five, and the team captain, a white dude, called my grandmother a nigger, and so my dad whipped his ass. They had it, he got reprimanded, they had a team dinner, it happened again, my dad whipped his ass and he was kicked off the team. Yeah, and I think when that is, when that's what happens to your dream I think you start to worry in some way or is it his dream? Absolutely? Yeah, yeah. Does he still have regrets today, I'm sure he does. I don't think he regrets that, Like I don't think he regrets open the team captain's ass or anything. But yeah, I think he wishes it turned out different. Absolutely, you know. Yeah. Does he understand what you're doing now? Yeah? Yeah, you know the first time, the first time he really got it. Well, he got it when I went to when I got into Berkeley, he was kind of he was shocked. I was shocked. My whole family was shocked. I couldn't believe it too, so much so that I remember I drove up. I drove up, I wrote the counselor. I was like, listen, like I got some I gotta I gotta talk to you. I didn't want to do it over email. I didn't want to do it over phone. Like I needed to look this lady in the eye. So I was like, hey, can I meet you? And she's like, yeah, sure, sure, come down this date this time drove up to Berkeley, and yeah I was. I was like, look I got this to furred a mission. This is real. Yeah, this is you're living in Orange County at the time. I'm living in the LA Yeah. Yeah, you drove six hours yeah to Berkeley yeah, six seven eight to ask official of Berkeley whether your acceptance that it was real. I came that far. I wasn't gonna like and then also like trying to figure out how to run a place up there and pay a mission just to note. So I drove up there, and you know, so I'm is this real? And she goes, yes, this is real. So I goes, so I can start January fifteen. Yes, you can as a philosophy major. Yes, okay, and I can switch my major if I want once I get in, yes, right, you know. And then and then and I'm kind of trying to work up to also like, so I asked, I say, listen, I'm gonna be honest with you, Okay, like I don't have a high school diploma, I don't have a GEED, I don't have an equivalency, so you should like So based on that now you said already said this was real, but based on now with his new information, based on that, is this really? Is this? Can I really come here? We skip a step. The step we skipped was you didn't graduate from high school. No, I left at fourteen, at fourteen? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I left at fourteen. I also didn't graduate from high school. But that's because my mom called the principle and said, Malcolm won't be coming in. He's more productive at home. That was everyone was like, okay, fine, Like that's you know, that's a very that's the world I grew up, and it was a forgiving, understanding, do what you want kind of world. Wait, you left high school at fourteen to do what? Yeah? Nothing good? Yeah, nothing good. I would say I was pretty beat down by that point, you know, like confidence wise, I didn't know what I was doing. So yeah, I left, and I was I was just doing my own thing. What's your mom doing when you're doing this? So here's so what happened was so like basically my freshman year of high school, I was so rocked by them with my confidence, like I had basically like a zero point something GPA, Like I had like no GPA. It was literally zero points something. And the only the highest grade I got was I thought it was a C, but it turns out it was a D. I got a D in journalism. Yeah, and the teacher poem aside. He's like, justin you're too smart to fail. You deserve a F. I'm not gonna give you a F. I'm gonna give you a D. I was like, oh, thank you, mister Muller. But it was like a zero point something. So they said you're gonna have to go to continuation school, which was just like a school like, you know, for for fuck ups. And my mom was like, you're not a fuck up, so you're not gonna You're not gonna go there. I go, okay. She's like, I'm gonna have you stay home, and uh, this it sounds crazy, but I gotta give her credit because it didn't work for a bit, but then it really worked. Um, She's like, I'm just gonna stay home. You're gonna read the paper every day while I'm at work. I'm gonna come home. You canna have a little report on a couple of items you read. And of course, you know, for the longest, like I just took advantage. I didn't do it, you know, like I just didn't. She didn't want me being with fuck ups because she did she already could see I think that my confidence was shot and that was just gonna be worse so she pulled me out. I took advantage of it. I didn't do much um until I was like almost sixteen. Common story, I feel like for a lot of people. I got a copy of the autobiography of Malcolm X, and it really really reignited my ambition. So then at that point I enroll in community college because I didn't really want to deal with like trying to start over from my freshman year of high school. So I rolled in community college and just did that for about four or five years, and so I could transfer. I transfers. I started that at like just before I turned sixteen, and I transferred to Berkeley at twenty one. At we see, we'll get back to Berkeley and how things turned around for Justin in a moment. Back to my conversation with Justin Richmond at the Edison O. Jackson Auditorium at MEDGA Evers College. Justin was finding his place at Berkeley. So you have a kind of loss of confidence and do you get it back in Berkeley at Berkeley? Yeah. Gabrielle Williams right here. I met Gabrielle at Berkeley. She was doing her PhD. We met at the Black Student Lounge, or was that the that was like her her student job thing, and she was listening to music and I heard so we connected, and um, there was a professor there by the name of Ricky Vincent. He was like the pre eminent funk music scholar and was writing a book on the Black Panthers, and I had a strong interest in the Panthers. So like between like Gabrielle and Ricky Vincent and and all these other black folk that looked like me that I could relate to. And for Gabrielle coming from from La southern California, like there was just a lot in common. It definitely a hundred percent helped me. But but but she also helped me through a lot because there's many times I've called Gabrielle, including when I took this job at Pushkin, like I really do this, this is a smart move, and she'll have to talk, you know. When I got into grad school, Man, I really take out these loans, Gabrielle, I don't know, it's a lot of money, Like I don't want to be in debt, and gabriel I was like, justin, just was are you supposed to do? You're going to school, you gotta pay you unless you can afford it, take the loan out and go so um yeah, I definitely got a ton of confidence back there, not that I'm you know. And then slowly along the way ebbed and flow like as new situations arose, and I sort of fell into journalism because I couldn't really, I couldn't get a job after college, and I knew I kind of went in wanting to be a professor by the time I got to Berkeleys, like, I kind of want to do my bachelor's, get a PhD, then teach, But then I sort of fell out of love with with higher education just because of the bureaucracy element. Sorry together, wonderful to have us here. But I would talk to Gabrielle, I would talk to my guy Ricky Vincent and sort of be like, well, what is it that I like to do? Well? I like the idea of writing and connecting with people, communicating to people, like the idea of researching, And so that's when like the idea struck to do journalism. I started getting involved with radio around town KPFA, which was the PACIFICA station in Berkeley, the campus station. I took a journalism in class, so I kind of and it's just snowball from there where I fell into journalism. But by the time I like I get a job, I'm twenty five. I'm at MPR, and my girlfriend got pregnant, who's now my beautiful wife, Danielle. We got two beautiful kids, Crinanella, and I was making like thirty thousand dollars a year MPR, paying back loans and about to have a kid. My confidence, I say, at that point sinks back to all time low. And I have a friend named Drew who took me to Cuba. It's just like I sensed you're kind of going through it. Let me, let me take you to Cuba. This is when Cuba opened up. It's like I was like, I can't really fort He's like, I'm gonna pay for it. You sent me back whenever. So me and Drew went down And this is the most random incident in my life. This is most random thing that ever happened in my life. Is we're in Cuba and Havana. I've driven to Mexico twice, but other than that, I've never left the country. And uh, I run into Quincy Jones in Havana, and Quincy Jones like I'm like, damn, that's Quincy Jones. I want to I go, hey, Quincy, can I can I get a picture? And he goes yeah, and he doesn't get up. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and take a picture of Quincy. And he started asking me though, what's your sign? I go Leah, I go leo. He goes, oh, I'm Leo rising cool. I don't know what that means. He just starts talking to me and we have like a three hour conversation. We have dinner. He never told me because you and I met Quincy like five years ago. Yeah, that was a full circle moment for me because we ended up going to Quincy's house. But I had like a three hour dinner with Quincy Jones in Havanna. I'm my lowest point. I'm making like no money, I'm broke. My wife is looking at me crazy because it's like, why are you even Cuba or running around like she didn't know if I was maybe gonna not gonna come back or what. Um, but I'm at Quincy And from that he was like, oh, you're you're a cool brother. Man gave me his gave me his card, and normally I wouldn't have reached out, but I felt I was like, okay, this man discovered Oprah Winfrey, Will Smith, Ray Charles. So I was like, you know what am I gonna do? Not reach out? So I could use all the help I could get. So I reached out to Quincy and was like, look, look Quincy, Like I realized I didn't want to reach out with nothing. So me and my friend Sinario Glinton, one of the few black men at MPR that sort of took interesting me right away sort of notice when I was there that I needed I needed his guidance. We decided I shouldn't just go to him with nothing to offer. So I was like, look, I'm a journalist. I work in a PR working audio everyone. You know, it's twenty sixteen. Podcasting is sort of new, but people are starting to have him. You've done everything from you know, everything across media that you could possibly do except for podcasting, like we can make you a podcast and it was like great, So you know, it wasn't that easy, but was a couple of meetings finally got into a great I got to sign some paperwork. I still have it framed. It's like me and Quincy Jones signature, which is the craziest thing in the world to me. But what happened was I couldn't. I couldn't I couldn't sell the thing. I've realized I didn't know the first thing about business. I've been flying blind my whole life, just trying to figure things out. I'm taking out loans, I don't know what I'm doing. And that's when the idea for this show occurred to me. It's like, if I could just talk to if I could talk to someone else, some other black man who I was like money, Magic Johnson by Ronalan who at that times about the Weather Channel. I was like, I bet they could tell me what to do because I was in these rooms just like realizing like I don't understand this jargon, I don't understand the speak, and I'm failing, you know. And so it really occurred to me at that moment, how important having people who look like you, who you can point to in your life, you can point to our successful at this particular thing. How that can really be. It's not the only way to figure things out, but it's man, it makes things so much easier. You know. Let's go back a moment and say what's the version of your life where you wouldn't have suffered that kind of crisis of confidence. I can't imagine. Give me a version, give me a version where it's where it's easy in the United States. I don't know. I don't think. I don't think you can't have it easy being born black in the United States. I don't think it's I don't think it's possible. I would say, best case scenario is you're like a Carlton type or something from Fresh Prince or something. You know, We're like, Okay, you succept but like, are you really how successful are you if you're not acknowledging the whole part of yourself. So it's hard for me to answer, But I guess in a scenario where there is no And this is interesting because I'm also thinking about this from from my kids now, like they're getting a much different life than I had, access to different kinds of people and education and two parents who are supportive of each other and supportive of them together. So I think, But but I mean, I guess, like for me, it's hard for it really is hard for me to imagine. But but maybe I guess the best case, you know, It's funny. I used to I used to dream that I was like a as a kid that like like I was like a Huxtable you know, which is maybe a little controversial now, but like maybe that would have been a best case scenario. You know that was a doctor mom was you know whatever in a Brownstone, and give me the worst case scenario so you don't get into Berkeley. What happens is that the key moment, no, I probably getting probably getting the Malcolm X autobiography because that was I was in a pretty bad spot there. But um, I'll say before I came to Pushkin, I almost gave up again, Like when you don't have examples of success around you and you don't have people who can teach you about money and how to um not even like in a gross like uber capitalist way, but just like how to accumulate it so that you can't have the things you want and need in life. Like I didn't have that. So I almost left journalism, even though you know I love it and I wanted to be in it, almost left it. I had a job offer with ADP, the Pay Road Processing, to do outdoor sales with ADP, because I was like, well, I'll just go do sales, you know, like I'll just I'll make some money doing sales. And I almost took that offer, you know, and that was maybe six months before for I got an email from from you, from me LaBelle and from you comor from Pushkin, which which I would say changed again my trajectory thanks to you, Jacob Weisberg, you know me labellum, Yeah, man, because because it was also bleak then a little bit, you know, it was also it was tough then, man. We'll take a quick break and get back to Justin's story. We're back with Justin Richmond in making sense of people's life stories and trying to figure out what's the difference between a in America, between a black life story and a white life story. One of the things, and it's very very difficult to convince persuade white people of this fact is it's how many strikes you get, or how many chances you get. If you are an upper middle class, well educated white person, you get like ten chances. You can script nine times and the system will catch you every time and start you over again. And if you're in the same position as a young black person, you maybe get two. And I remember this is a weird example of this. But there's an incredibly interesting book that was written about a suburb of Buffalo, a wealthy suburb of Buffalo. I think it's Williamsville, Not sure, amorist. The book, I think is called the Safest City in America. It was about how there's no juvenile delinquency and Williamsville. And the reason is not that there's no misbehavior among juveniles. It's that they just call us something different. Right, it's high jinks, it's sowing no wild oats, it's it's oh so and so it just has to learn to be. It's everything is getting. Everyone gets so many different chances that no one ever looks never comes to the definition of juvenile delinquency. And like that, that thing, this question of how many chances you get is it sounds listening to your story, that you are very close to running out of chances. It's even like more than that. It's just it's like I didn't even know that I had chances, you know, and maybe I didn't. I never knew I had chances. You know, there's a point where you know, I guess in your example, the difference would be in those instances, those kids in Buffalo their thought to be behaving badly, Whereas when you're a black kid misbehaving, you're bad, you know you you're Oh, you're absolutely defined differently. You're a terrible person. You can't you can't succeed, you can't do it's none of this is for you, you know. Yeah, And so that's where I was at, which is a pretty bleak place. Yeah. Yeah, my speaking of father, So my father who passed away a couple of years ago, but actually today, weirdly is his birthday. Um, my mom always says that my dad that that his motto was nothing bad will ever happen, which I thought about a lot. Partly that's the function of his personality. Had this kind of unstoppable and thoughtful personality. But he was also a came from a stable English family. He was well educated, he was very intelligent. The system always worked from my dad. He was a nice person, he was depending on, he was charming, he was people liked him. So it made sense that his theory of life was nothing bad will ever happened. My mother would ematin you know, she's a mom, she would imagine all kinds of horrible and he would just he would look at her uncomprehending me. It's like, no, no no, no, no, basically nothing, every bad's going to happen, right, And it was essentially true of like in that message. I was just thinking, as you were talking about your dad, the difference in messages sent to the two of us at a young age. I have this dad who just thinks it doesn't even occur to him that there's ever going to be any you know, detour of it's a runway, yeah, man, Yeah, something about opportunity, and there's something about the way from which society asks you or demands that you think about yourself. You know, it's like sometimes you don't get an option and how you want to think about yourself. I feel like the one thing that I don't Maybe it's fine this way, but the transition is still really the way that your life kind of turns around. I don't turns around. It's not like people were living a life of crime, but you know what I mean, like some hammitting myself on this something happens. It's really kind of interesting and mysterious to you in your twenties. It was a I was like, yeah, between it was just building up my confidence, I guess between fifteen and now I'm still trying, you know, Like from that time I did drop out of high school to like just getting through college, Like what motivated me was a sense of failure. I was like, man, if I don't get a high school, if I don't get a college diploma, like what I have an eighth grade certificate? Like what is that going to do for me? You know? So that was kind of like this real like it wasn't like a Carrott type of motivation. It was like you know, and and then I was like, well, then I couldn't get a job. And then I went started interning and I got into grad school, and then that gave me another Okay, now it's grads when I got to figure out grad school is a big scary thing and do that, and then I get out of there. I get right into this job and NPR and within them two months, like my girlfriend's pregnant, you know, and it's like now it's like, well I gotta figure out how to provide. So like my whole I feel like every step of my life up until recently has been about how do I just how do I not how do I not fail? And that's sort of been my motivation to succeed, and I'm trying to figure out a way now to be motivated now the debt, Like, that's why I'm on this journey. If I just trying to talk to successful people, I've I've been lucky enough to be. You know, first time we met in Santa Monica, I was like, man, I can't Lena go meet Malcolm glad Well. That's crazy. And you know, we had a very lovely conversation. I just remember, I like, I can't get out of here without asking like, like, how did you get comfortable having money? And I asked you that, what did they say? You're like, I just wanted to build, to do my own thing. I wanted to have my freedom. I wanted to build. I never wanted people to sign things to me or to be told what to do and so and I was like, damn, that's a great answer, you know. And but that's why that's largely why I'm I'm still you know, I'm still trying to figure out this this this world, in this life and navigating different things. So that's why I'm that's why I'm doing this and talking to people like Charlemagne the God and people like uh, Susie Orman, and just different people who you know, against the odds, against all odds, like figured this thing out, you know. And and my hope is that people listening to it it inspires them not only to take big swings, but also to seek out real world, real life mentorship, you know. Like obviously I want this to be a platform of mentorship for people. So hopefully you walk away having learned a lot and feeling boosted. But also like I think, you know, you need to have real life mentors, and I've been lucky enough to have so many, Gabrielle, you, Jacob, all kinds of different people. I'm hoping that I try to figure this out, people will figure out alone along with me. Yeah, that's lovely. Well, thank you, Justin. Will let's do some audience questions. Funny, if there are any questions, they could be for me or Malcolm here comes in one. Yeah, thank you. My name is Kevin Nesben. I'm an educator, one of the administrators that create the blockages you talked about. No, but thank you so much for the way you present YOURCCY good VP. As I call myself m I've had many friends that come from biracial families, and I think as someone that does not come from a biracial family, there's always this belief that there's some sort of protection that you might receive from your whiteness if you choose to adopt it, or if you choose to embrace it. And because I appreciate the way that you said you understood immediately you were a black man and that you had no choice because even if you wanted to imagine something, other society told you, no, you're a black man, right, And you gave many examples for that. But I have other friends that, throughout their journey, they've been able to say, well, it's it's not that it's a choice, but it's a little messier than that for them because they're both black, they're both white, and they grapple with what that means. Did you have any moments where you felt that having a parent that was white actually enabled some moments of protection or other as Malcolm described it, maybe one more choice, right, one more set of options. That's my question. Yeah, I guess I don't want to speak for other people, but my belief is when I talk to when I hear these stories, it's just that there's a bit of them deluding themselves. Perhaps you know that I don't, but hard hard to say. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I didn't feel that maybe if I'd had a different mom, maybe it would have been different, But I was never allowed to think that anything different, you know, thank you. Yeah, yeah, there a This is my grand theory of biracial marriages. There's a big difference between black father, white mother, and white father black mother, which would be here. Yeah, we're actually very different kinds. The Historically, what a biracial marriage was was a white man and a black woman. That was the acceptable form for society. Goes back hundreds and hundreds of years. That's what it was. It was never the reverse. And only really recently have you seen black men mary white women. And I think the road is a lot harder both for the for the marriage and the children. It's a lot harder when your father's black and your mom is white. And I think of look like on the cases I'm thinking about my friendships with it was largely the what you describe where traditional, and maybe the household of the fathers, whether separated or not. Later on there was some sort of protection that dad would you'd have another outcome, right, you have another choice, so that I just wanted to hear a bit about that. I think society views a black man, white woman as as being subversive and in a way that they don't view the reverses being subversive. Thank you, that's true. Hello. Firstly, thank you Malcolm and justin you guys are It's just been a joy to have you here and I've just enjoyed this whole conversation. Um, I just wanted from you, just in like a sound bite or maybe just like a quick statement, like words of advice from one biracial man to another biracial man, just how it to like navigate the professional world and how it to just keep your bearings and keep yourself grounded. Man, I am not listening to my show because I think there's people far greater than me that are gonna be given advice. But I would say it's to this point in the instances where I haven't code switched, I've always been much more successful. You know. I don't know if that's because I've been lucky, but also some of it comes down to my Like I also think you shouldn't capitulate. So also like if someone doesn't want you, like I do have imposterive syndrome yet and still it's like I do somewhere in me have this belief that like I can't help but be myself, you know, And I think if songs, you just are true to yourself whatever that is, however you view yourself, identify yourself, behave like yourself, Like I think that's all you can do. And I think in those instances, like just knowing that you bring a lot to the table being you than you do you being someone else. And if you don't, you'll find out, right, Like, sometimes it doesn't pay to be means situations and I've you know, I found out, But okay, then find that one's not for me. Let me go to the next situation where it is good for me to be there. You know, I was at NPR before I was at Push Game with Malcolm, and that was a place that I was authentic to myself. But it didn't feel like that was it wasn't appreciated, and you know, so I got out to go where you're appreciated, and go where you're appreciated. Yeah, yeah, thank you, yeah yeah. Oh welcome gentlemen, thank you so much. So you both mean a buy racial and I wanted to ask mister godwell, justin identify as as black and yourself I don't think about it. I think that's the difference between having I have a West Indian mom justin as an African American father. If you're a West Indian, you don't think about race in the same way. It's not this omnipresent thing in your life. So I was I just think of myself as I don't know. When I grew up. It was never forced. I mean it was never I was never forced to answer that question. My mom thought of herself as a Jamaican, not as a white person or a black person or so I don't have a I don't have a a kind of easy answer that you had a couple of layers because Jamaican and then growing up in Canada, which I feel like it was probably very different than yes, Canada. Again, I never I never got the the the racial experience of as all of you, everyone in this room knows, the racial experience of living in this country is just profoundly different from the racial experience almost anywhere else. Would life have been different if you are darker complexion, probably, I guess, although well black not black people always know that I'm by racial. White people don't necessarily know, so it would have made my uh. I have to tell my favorite story ever along his grounds is as running down. I went for a run one day in LA and running down Ocean Boulevard and this black guy in a gorgeous open portion eleven, like one of those tricked out ones, like one of these incredibly handsome black ones, looks at me, sees me running, stands up, so he's like, you know, he's through the roof of his car, raises his handling as he says, I love what you do, bro. So like I get a lot of love and that. So if I was darker, when I get more love for that? I mean maybe, but I I can't see how it get even more than I already get. Yeah, thank you very much. Okay, all right, thank you so much, guys, and thank you to Mega Evers College. You know, higher education is wonderful. This was the perfect way to launch Justin's new show started from the bottom. Now I heard you, all of you to subscribe to it right now and never forget. If you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, you hear all story. No ads believe me, It's worth it. Thanks to everyone at Mega Evers College for hosting Justin and Me, especially Alexis McClean and Peter Holliman. Special thanks also to Keishall Williams, our associate editor, who is also a Medgar Evers alum and had the wonderful idea of bringing us there. Revision's history is produced by lem And Guestu, Amy Gaines, Kiara Powell, and Jacob Smith. Today's episode was produced by Kesha Williams, David Jaw and Amy Gaines. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. Original scoring by Luis Guera, mastering by Ben Tolliday, and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Special thanks to Julia Barton. I'm Malcolm Glabow.