Revisionist HistoryMalcolm Gladwell sits with interior design legend Nate Berkus in a live conversation covering everything from travel, to their moms, prestige TV, and finding the places that can cure us of melancholy. This episode was recorded at the AC Hotel New York Times Square, and is brought to you by AC Hotels.
Pushkin. Hello, Hello everyone, we have a little surprise for you today. It's a conversation I recently have with Nate Burkas. If that name rings a bell, He's a famous interior designer. You may know him from his appearances over the years on the Oprah Winfrey Show. You may have read one of his books. You may even have some of his products in your home. Anyway, this all came about because AC Hotels wanted to host an event about design and creativity at their Times Square location in New York City, and we decided to invite Nate to come, which turned out, as you will hear, to be an inspired choice. I had so much fun doing this. We talked about our moms, about Paris, about the TV shows of Phillis with Rage, and a million other things, but mostly about design and creativity. Nate is as charming and funny as he is smart. Anyway, here it is. This all took place in the rooftop bar of the Cotel in New York with all kinds of fabulous cocktails and appetisers being passed around. Just a heads up, you may hear some city noises in the background. I hope you enjoyed this live episode as much as I did. I wanted to say before I started, I think we should get this little order a bit of business out of the way. I've scored enormous points with my significant other this evening by interviewing you, Kate. Normally, if I'm interviewing like the you know, hypothetically the CEO of whatever Microsoft, she would say, oh, interesting, and then go back to her phone. When word leaked that I was interviewing Nate Burkas, he was like Nate Burkas. It was like, you can't imagine the kind of celebrity power you have in my home.
You are welcome.
Yeah, yeah, so no, it's huge. It's huge for all of us in the glabled household.
May I just say that?
When I told my mother that I was going to be a guest on Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, or response was, why that's that's not very nice.
We're going to be talking about travel and design and your career and all kinds of interesting things before we get to your career. Though, you and I are both both have the travel bug. Because I have a theory that the travel bug is innate, it's not acquired.
Yeah to have it or you don't, So is the design bug.
So is this all good? So we're talking, we're trafficking. I don't have a little story about myself which I think proves this is true. But before I tell that story, I wanted you tell me when did you realize what is the first evidence the world has that Nate has the travel bug? How young are you?
I think? Yeah? I think it was.
The first time I was somewhere without a chaperone, like a proper chaperone. I did a semester abroad in Europe and moved to Paris and sort of lived in this tiny little box at the top of a beautiful old building with.
A share bath. Fantasy. It was amazing, It was amazing. I sold all my clothes of spending money.
But I knew you wearing all black at that person, I wanted to wear all black.
Yeah, I was wearing Ralph Lauren and that's not what no, no, no oh, yeah, I had to to sell that. Yeah, get some money for a leather jacket. But I was found myself in Paris alone, and I remember walking the streets and feeling really good, feeling like really solid, and not being afraid and not being intimidated and being fascinated by modern life in an ancient place. And I think that that was the first moment for me. And when I travel, I don't I'm not really reaching for the sort of.
Where the guides say you should go.
For me, it's it's what is most indicative of that place as seen through objects. So I'm in the markets where people buy their pots and pans and the fabric they make the potato sacks out of, and those are the kinds of things that I'm always searching for. But that trip to Paris, that first move really to Paris, was when I knew I would never really stay in one place for a long time.
My version of that story is we moved from England to Canada when I was six, and there's a picture of us about to get on the train to go to the We took a boat, took the Empress of England. We're about to get on the train to go to the boat. And so there's a family shot. My oldest brother is weeping, it's leaving the only country's ever known, all of his friends. My middle brother is clinging to my mother anxiously. You know, it's a long ten days on a through uncharted you know, Stormy seas. I looked like some it has just given me a million dollars. I am five years old and this is the single greatest moment. I'm like, are you kidding me? We're going to some unknown place on a boat for ten days.
This is amazing, that's amazing.
Couldn't wait to get out of there. That was when if I look at the photo, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's exactly you. Nothing has changed. So I want to go back to you in Paris. You're how old?
Uh, seventeen?
Did you experience Paris at seventeen the same way you would have experienced today and others? Were you doing the same things that in a new city that you do today, only without realizing why with the habits there?
Yeah they were.
I still love doing all the things that I did when I was that age in that city, no matter where, I am allowing myself to get lost.
Not relying on you know, an.
Uber or a a driver or whatever it is, but really digging in and seeing the space and seeing the place, trying to figure out how to ask the right people where the best Chinese food is or the best croissant or the best coffee, Like you know, I have this aversion to being told what to do.
When I'm I have this aversion being told.
What to do of that, but especially when I'm traveling, because I want to figure it out for myself. And if a friend says you have to eat here, you have to see this, or you have to go to this museum or see this historical I'll do it in two seconds. But I also like to be the guy that has days doing nothing and just kind of soaking in what the culture might bring.
I want to go back to something you said about allowing yourself to get lost, which is nearly impossible today, but all of us over the age of forty remember a time when that was kind of not the norm. It was really easy to get lost and thrilling in this way.
Yeah.
I remember when I, as a fifteen year old, me and my brother went to London and spent we spent twos with my uncle and Anne. They lived just on the kind of furthest reaches of West London. I would get on the Parsons Green Tube and randomly get off at a stop and walk around. I knew nothing about London. I had never read a guidebook. What I knew about London I knew from Dickens.
Yeah, wow, And I get I totally get that.
I had the best time.
You're a little bit afraid, but it's anticipatory and you never know what you're going to stumble upon.
You know where the foolest place the best for us?
You know where I ended up going without realizing I was there until many years later. Malcolm McLaren, the founder of the Sex Pistols, had a clothing store with was it Vivian Westwood yeap on something road in Chelsea.
That I don't know, but yes, I remember I went there.
I was fifteen. I had no clue what was going on. I was like, oh, this looks interesting.
But you found it and it felt differently because you found it. It's like, you know, and I yeah, I mean I to allow yourself to get lost. It wasn't that. It wasn't really that scary now. I mean, as a dad, I think it's super scary. I would kill my kids, Like, what are you talking about? There's a lowjack and your shoe and we've an apple tag and your forehead and you know you're you know, but I can still see you.
But I think you know.
It was just I don't know there was just something about being in a foreign capital and a new culture, in a place that was so old and so beautiful, and the architecture was so special to.
My eye at that age that I wanted to be lost. I wanted to be lost every day.
Does that if we think about that phrase as a kind of metaphor, does it also describe your professional practice as a interior designer.
Yeah, I think it describes it in that I'm really afraid of people who present themselves as like they're mastered a craft like I just it's the weirdest sort of place. I've been doing this for almost thirty years now, assembling spaces hopefully that have meaning for the people that live there. But I am trying really hard to do that. But it's all evolving constantly. And you know, in any creative endeavor, if you've made decisions about how things need to be or should be, you're missing every other sort of bright, shiny thing you can reach down and pick up and incorporate. And so I think, after this long in design, I'm adept at scale. I'm adept at certain things that have practices sort of refined a skill set that's a practical skill set, but the creative, the magical, the imaginative. Yeah, I'm always lost. I love it.
Yeah, so walk we through. You're in Paris at seventeen. Tell me take me from there to your how you became a designer.
So I'm seventeen. I've sold all of my Ralph Lauren clothes to the lovely kids.
Okay, what do you like? Just briefly, in two sentences, what do you like at seventeen?
Guys and fries, No, no, no, nay, you can do better than that, And I still do you can do better than that?
What I like at seventeen?
Do you?
If my set is seventeen year old Malcolm and seventeen year old Nate Meat, we.
Would probably talk about music.
I was listening to like the Smiths and you know, and so music music. My walk Man was on my whatever discman, Walkman, whatever awk Man. And I like clothes and I liked history. I was interested in history, and at that age.
That's what we would have talked about.
What's up?
I don't think you would have talked about clothes if you saw the clothes I was wearing when I was seventeen, further ahead of me. But you came, you grew up in Chicago.
No, I was actually raised in suburban Minneapolis, and I split my time between southern California and Minneapolis. My parents divorced when I was two, and they both remarried instantly. My mother actually tried to get married before her divorce was legal.
To my dad.
They went and they said, ma'am, you're actually still married. My mother was like, oh, because I'll.
Go home and wash my hair. Yeah.
But they both remarried, and my stepfather was a radiologist in Minnesota, and so I was raised there and then and then I went away to school for high school over out on the East Coast.
So I've been all over the place.
Oh, I see, yeah, yeah, but you do sound more sophisticated. Didn't I wasn't seven seventeen.
I don't know about that. I don't know.
I mean, listen, I don't even know if I'm sophisticated.
Now.
My my favorite restaurant worldwide is the State Fair of Mida.
So it's just the best.
Guys, When you say you were interested in history at that age, what does that mean?
I was. I was interested in architecture, and I was interested in spaces, and I was interested in a little bit in mythology, and a lot in sort of like royal palaces and sort of aristocratic homes and like really beautiful, beautiful in homes in castles and.
Hotel particular and things like that.
I was interested in the intersection between history and design, even though I didn't know that I would make a life for myself working in design. But I was always very sensitive to environments. I grew up with a mother who was an interior designer, so our home was constantly changing.
I was.
My job was to carry these old wallpaper books in an out of the trunk of her car that weighed more than I did you did you like your mother's sense of style. I appreciated it. She used a lot of old things. But no, I mean it was French country.
She knows this. We've talked about this. Trust me, she's listening right now. I have a sudden.
Tuning in and I'll be living with you and underwitness protection.
Now.
My mom knew that, but I What I admired about my mother's style was that she she never reached for new things. She always reached for antique furniture or vintage things. And she loved an auction or an estate sale and That was how I got the bug of caring so much about assembling interiors for other people with things that have a little bit of history and soul.
Did your mother have the travel bug?
My mother the shopping bug. So, I mean my mother was very intrepid. She was you know, she had a point of view and growing up. Actually, now that I now that you asked me that I knew it a very young age that pearls came from China, or you know, great shoes came from France, or great leather came from this place, from you know, the tanneries we're here.
That's probably why when I.
Land somewhere now, I'm always interested in, like the local craft, what's made there, what they do the best job doing. That's what I always want to know. It doesn't have to be expensive, but like what's the what's the best thing in Sri Lanka, what's the best thing in Barcelona? Like what's the coolest craft in Wahaka? What are they known for?
Yeah, you said earlier that you're very interested in investigating the culture of a place through its artifact.
Yeah, through its craft.
It's not that And what you're describing in your mother as a.
Version of them. Yeah, it is, it is. You know.
My favorite, this is one of my favorite things to do, by the way, is to locate someone's passions in there in an earlier form found in their parents. My favorite I can I go to a total digression.
Yeah.
My favorite example of this was I was once at a party in LA and I met a very famous LA manager, maybe one of the most famous of all the managers. He was famous because he was the hardest negotiator in Hollywood. He was like the guy who would argue with you for you know, two weeks for the down to the slightest detail of a contract. And I was chatting with him and I was like, Oh, tell me about your childhood and he goes, oh, yeah, well my parents went and I was really raised on my grandfather. What's your grandfather do? Well? He was in the button business. He's like, oh, what was that like? Well, every day after school I would go to my grandfather's office in the garment district and I would sit in a chair and I would listen to him argue over the you know, the tenth of a cent difference in a large order of buttons. Pause, and I'm like exactly, And he looked at me, like, what are you talking about?
No connection to see it? Same thing.
He takes the buttons, and he takes the hall. It makes a fortune.
Exactly right, exactly, and he's negating over the tenth percent of the price of a button.
Still, but you do you do you see what you see where I'm going? Oh, of course, of course I'm following this. Yeah, and you're right. I mean, you know, my mom and I have talked about over the years. She's asked me like, what do you think my influence on you was as a young person, and then obviously is in design, and it was she taught me how to source. And I think a good designer has to be really good at sourcing because even in today's age, where you know, obviously, like at any given moment, at any place in the world, you can find exactly what you're looking for online.
It's not really enough. You have to know who makes the hand painted lampshades on Etsy, and who makes the Mexican pineapples in Morelia, and then who you know it's just and then who can put it all together for you and turn it into a copy table. So you know, you've got to know the guy in Brooklyn too, so it's but sourcing is like is what she gave me, and especially a love of vintage and craft and handmade.
We'll be right back after the break and we're back with Nate Burgis. We'll stop a lot of hotels, since hotels are such an integral part of the travel experience for so many people. I was thinking when I was prepared for this about so what is the what's the most wonderful hotel experience I ever had? And it was in a little hotel in Stockholm, which is in an old mansion. And I've forgotten what the mansion looks like, and I've forgotten what the my room looked like. I know that it was nice and comfortable room. The genius thing was there was a huge old oak table immediately adjacent to an open kitchen, and when you wanted to eat, you went down and you sat the table, and the cook came over to you said what do you want? And everybody who's staying at the table, it was a small sale. Everyone who just came and sat at the table. It was that thing.
Yeah.
Their intention was that they were recreating a Swedish home, family home of which you were a visitor and that's not what I want from every hotel. But no, they executed that intention beautifully. Yeah, that's what I cared about.
I think listen, I think that every hotel wants to be welcoming, they want to be curated, they want to be you know, intentional in their design decisions. And most definitely, design does translate and communicate sort of what are you meant to feel chic and urban and you know free? Are you meant to feel relaxed and calm and sunburnt like?
You know?
Of course, the furniture and the textiles and the even the distribution of the rooms lends itself to certain activities and certain feelings. So I have these clients in Cambridge, Massachusetts. They're incredibly wonderful.
I was wondering what was going to come out.
No, brilliant, They're brilliant.
And yeah, you said you want to be in there to the pause after incredibly that they are.
They are wonderful and there they travel probably three hundred days a year. Yeah, and the goal was to create a home that they liked more than anywhere they've ever stayed. They can stay anywhere in the world, and they can stay in in five star rent A house, rent a villa. They can literally go anywhere they want to go. But my assignment was to make home feel better than that. So it's me against like man against the world.
Man.
You know, did this make you nervous?
No?
I was so excited about this challenge because what it did was it allowed me to really figure out who they were as a family, what really mattered to them, what ceremonies they do in their home, how they spend time together.
And it offered me an opportunity.
To build that tile by tile, pillow by pillow, book by book, and create a space that dreamt a bigger dream for them as a family than they had even dreamt for themselves.
How did you figure that out about We.
Had the architectural framework there, We knew it was a house, we knew it had these many bedrooms and these many bathrooms and whatever. But we started with a lot of imagery and I just watched their eyes as they commented, and I would ask them, why are you smiling when you're talking about that fireplace. You've never picked a fireplace in your entire life, But what is it that you.
Like about that?
And they were able to communicate, well, it feels so rustic, and it feels so interesting, and it feels like this house in Italy that we stayed in years ago, and I don't know, and we really liked the idea of not using a lot of marble.
In the bathrooms. It feels too pretentious to us.
And I said, well, what if we just use the marble on the trim and the floor is would and there's no and the marble and the countertops and the trim, but we'll just go around the baseboards and the doors.
There'll be no slabs in the shower.
And so it just gradually became this dialogue that went back and forth, and it you know, the goal is not just to assemble something that's beautiful and meaningful, but it's to delight the people who have spent this time and money hiring you to do something. And I have to say, I get a text from them weekly. They moved in over a year ago. Yeah, and then they just we just love it here, like we just you know.
The greatest thing would be if they stop traveling. Right, how much do you travel?
I travel a lot?
How much for fun and how much work? Or is there no distinction in the sense that you're always collecting.
I, oh, yeah, I mean there is a distinction.
I mean, obviously, I'm going to a beach trip with my kids, you know that I know what I'm doing there. But all the work trips, I mean I spent twenty five years doing makeovers in all these towns across the country, some time staying there for her up to two weeks, sometimes being there for forty eight hours. I always make it fun. I wanted to go to the local antiques malls. I want to find out who is the best Hamburger. I want the vintage fashion, the coolest monument, the private museum house, like I can't sit still. The funny story about the first time I was ever in Madrid with Jeremiah, my husband. We had canvassed all these museums and we had had this beautiful lunch, and then we met friends, and then we went to another district and we were shopping, and we came home and our feet were bleeding. You're like, you know, wearing the wrong shoes. Of course, you know, even though we're well traveled, we.
Wanted to look cute. You want to look cute when you're in Madrid. So we got back to the hotel and he like had his.
Feet in the bathtub and just sitting there like sort of softly moaning. And I was on the bed with one of the magazines that was in the hotel, and as I was reading this men's fashion story, I was looking intently at all these decorative boxes and objects and frames and like leather from the fifties and like all this like really cool stuff. And then I went to the back of the magazine and found the credit and it said the name of this store. And I called downstairs to the concierge and as he said, it's closing, but it's actually owned by my neighbor. If you want me to call him, he'll stay open for you. And I said, yes, yes, please call him. I want to see the store. And Jared finally comes around the corner with his bloody feet and I go, you gotta put your shoes back on.
Nay, you're exhausting. I'm so exhausting.
Describe to me when you encounter spaces for the first time, what's your process of judgment? Do you do you always have a kind of reaction to it?
Are you?
Do you find yourself frequently appalls outraged?
No, I'm never I'm never outraged.
You know because you know I asked this question because my version of what you do is stories, and what a story is badly told.
I am furious.
I just parenthetically wasted a good three weeks of my life and I have no free time to smuntle watching Ozark, and after a season and a half, I'm like, this is absolutely indescribably appalling. How do they do this? I want to go after the showrunner and just say, you destroyed three weeks of my life. Do you have any idea out precious that is to me?
Yeah, but you don't have this, so you don't know the rage. You know the rage?
No, I mean I don't both virgos, I know. I mean I have rage about other things. I have rage about dirty laundry, but I don't rage about that.
Okay, but I know. I mean. The answer to your question, though, is when I walk in.
First of all, I hate that show too. It's so badly done. Oh my god, it's miserable. But catch them or don't catch them? All right, Like, yeah, it's the same thing, it's the same scene every episode.
Ozon if it's so much the ox.
Yeah, exactly, talk about travel, don't start another casino And.
Then like in like in like at the end of episode one, you know Laurel Lenny Wendy says, oh, yeah, we have a spot in Australia all picked out.
Go I know, save yourselves. Save.
When I walk into a space, honestly, it's a it's almost like AI like my eyes open and I look into space, and I can immediately see what I would change. And there's not one right way to do anything obviously in life, and there's certainly not one right way to assemble a room or renovate a space. Marry another designer for ten years if you don't believe. But honestly, like the minute I walk in, and this is I think one of the reasons why I've I've had so much fun with real estate over the years. It's like I can just like I walk in and it's just like a film goes over me and I can see, like raise that, take out that beam, bring the cabinets to the ceiling, do a floor here, change the.
Floor there, move this doorway over three feet.
And by the time, I mean most of our renovations actually and this is true, most of our renovations, and we've renovated everywhere we've ever lived We've never just walked in and been like, this is great, my little plant air, It's gonna be perfect. But every single renovation started with going home and writing out initial ideas and short and those initial ideas were eighty five percent of the final product. The instant knee jerk reaction of how the room should flow, how the space should be laid out. Not for furniture floor plans, because you know, we're two designers, like we move stuff around all the time, But in terms of the actual bones of a place, it's like a film just comes down and on the film I can see it.
I think that's I'm reminded of as you talk about it's like a point guard describing what he or she sees on a basketball court.
Yep.
And that is a logic that is so hard for me to follow. But you are one hundred percent. I'm sure you're right. I love a sports analogy and welcome bring them, bring them at me, let me try the forty yards.
But let me try again. No, No, there is a kind of no. But what's what's funny about listening to you say that, which makes perfect sense to me, because that's that is your gift, right, that's The essence of what you do is being able to see a different, a different and more interesting version of what you're presented with.
And a version that's easier and better to live in. Yeah, it may not be better than the original, of course, but like it's going to be better for whoever lives there.
But Nate, how does this? I want to go back to this question of why you don't feel rage? So if you go in and you can't change it, how do you cope? You come to my house for dinner. Yeah, and you walk in and you do that thing, and you're like, oh god, I was called like fifty things wrong. And you're like, well, you're not going to change it. And now he's not a client.
I don't.
I'm not I'm not gonna be here. So what do you do? You sit uncomfortably through dinner just thinking.
Why is that there? Now? What do you think? You know what?
Honestly, it's, first of all, a little side note about me. I appreciate a home cooked meal more than I care about what they're doing looks like, because my mother made nothing growing up, So I I mean that sounds delicious.
I don't even care.
I love how large your mother has loomed. I know, what's your mother's name, Nancy shout out to Nancy.
Yeah, there you go. But yeah, she has been looming at large.
And you know why it is because I my favorite thing is talking about people's parents. You do.
I didn't know that I.
Could talk about Peole's parents. If you told me I could do this, I would have made this the entire show about your mom.
You would love that.
Let's just talk. Let's just talk about your mom.
That's amazing.
Get people think moms get like too much airtime. Wrong, yeah, way too little airtime. It's all about mom.
My mom is aware of that.
My mom actually is not, which is one of her charms.
That is terming. I can't imagine. That's like a point guard too.
My mother.
If you if you talk on the phone with her too long, she will she'll remind you you of other things to do.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, I can't even imagine.
Where were we You're upset that I think you're upset that that I'm not ragefull when I come for a meat loaf at someone's house.
No, I'm trying to.
I'm here and we're getting back to this series, okay, and that is I'm trying to understand how you manage your You have a powerful aesthetic sense, right, which dominates your life. Yeah, it's why you're who you are, why you're good at what you do.
But I can't answer that. I know where we're doing, how you manage it. There's two things.
Yeah, One, there's a time and a place for everything, and I believe that. And so if I'm looking at a property because I'm going to live there personally, then I can't turn off that AI kind of you know thing. If I'm looking at a property that somebody is paying me to change on their behalf, then I can't turn anything off. But if I'm going to dinner at someone's house or I'm sitting on my you know, sister's floor playing with my nephew, I don't care. Yeah, I just don't. I mean, I couldn't care less. I'm like, where's where we're bringing luncheon from?
You know?
Do you like my haircut? There's so many other things that are you know, did you read this book? Did you hear what happened to so and so?
Like? What really makes me Rageye? Actually good, I'm glad we're finally getting get you ready?
Yeah?
Okay, here you go, mister Malcolm Gladwell, now, mom, you know why what makes me ragie is people who are really confident in their bad taste. Yeah, it makes me insane. And it usually is tied to a lot, like a great deal of money, like a huge fortune wasted. And I cannot stand the shape of their heads when they tell you how special and fabulous, because they use that word a lot.
Yeah, that's a keyword.
If you're going to have really terrible taste and be confident about it, you need to say everything is fabulous over and over so you yourself apparently believe it.
But that makes me insane.
Do you want to name names at all of it?
Sure?
I think that there's the reason why it's not extremely complicated to have a career in design at any level is because there's so much insecurity around design. And I've tried to make that okay over the years to not be so heavy handed.
I have my own convictions. I know what I think is beautiful.
You know, when you're on makeovers for fifteen years on the Oprah Winfrey Show in two hundred countries and everybody's looking to you, the question was always like, what's the trend?
What's the trend coming up?
And you could hear the representative from the wool Bureau in the background and the pantone color of you know, and not that I would decide that, but they were just like, is he.
Going to agree? Is he gonna whatever? And I've always.
Felt like all these waves, these trends are designed to make people feel bad about what they didn't buy at the last trend. And so my whole philosophy has always been like, if you actually spend the time to get to know yourself well enough to know what you really do, enjoy what really like makes your heart sing when you look around a space, then you can shut out all that noise and build something that matters. Because the hit the interiors that I've been inspired by over the years, the ones that really mattered to me are the ones where people just like kind of busted a move.
You know.
It was France in the nineteen fifties and this Mexican count decided that he was going to make all these follies in his garden and design the house. It's called Chateau to Grus for anyone who wants to look it up, but like it's a real place and he put a royal blue rugged in the dining room with Kelly Green chairs because no one was doing that, and that's what he wanted to live in. And maybe it was because he was half from Mexico. Maybe it wasn't, who knows, but it was revolutionary. And you know, had he been worried about what color the sweaters on the mannequins and Banana Republic on Fifth Avenue, we're going to be like it was. You know, it was inconceivable. So am I like a real renegade? Am I breaking all these rules? Am I zahadde making buildings that look like they balance on the bottom of a pin?
And you know, no, I'm not.
My goal is to make like really livable spaces that if they're designed right now, twenty five years from now, they still look great and more importantly, they still feel great. So that's my niche. That's what matters. And I think that's the like, what all this loathing people with lots of money and bad tastes and being vehemently anti and you know you end up with.
With some nice tyle.
Yeah, okay, last question, Yeah, not meant to be a downer question, but imagine that you were sad. You were melancholy over so Slumpsley and I came to you, Nate, and I said, I will fly you tonight to the one place in the world that will cure you of your melancholy. Where do I take you home? Oh? That's lovely. Thank you so much, Nate. This has thanks for listening to this special live episode of Revision's History, brought to you by AC Hotels. It was produced by Tali Emlin with Nina Lawrence and ben adfh Haffrey, editing by Sarah Nis, mastering by Jake Gorsky. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Kira Posey, Joshua Crowley, Brion Moreno, Raya, Anthony, Benjaminjuster and the whole production crew at iHeartMedia. Not to mention Nate Berkus's shop, I'm Malcolm Gladwell.
