I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney. Now welcome to reparations The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. So here we are. Yeah, here we are, back in the saddle, back in the saddle. I'm glad we came back here to celebrate our big premiere of The Big Payback documentary. I mean, we've come full circle. Absolutely, it's really exciting to be back here talking about this. I mean, when I met you what three and a half almost four years ago, the idea that we'd be now here four years later talking about the premiere of the documentary, that we would have done a podcast. You're not doing a follow up episode to the podcast. I wouldn't believed it. But uh, it certainly has been quite a year. It's been a big year, and so congratulations to us, dude, and to everyone who worked on It's been a real push to get here. I have a hernia to prove it. Actually, I'm not kidding about that. I do. But anyway, I'm excited to talk about our film. But before we do, let's talk about what you've been doing since we've been gone all this time. What have you been up to. As I said, it's been a pretty intense year, you know, I look about you know, here we are in January. Last January, we were pushing to finish the end of the film, wrapping it up, scoring it and mixing it, coloring it, getting it ready for Tribeca, launching it Tribeca. That big show that we did at the Apollo Theater in New York, which was so big. That was sexy, wasn't it great? That was one of my my favorite events. Free event on June tenth, the big payback at the Apollo Theater. That was a lot of fun. It's pretty awesome, very awesome. And to the people who came out on Father's Day, by the way to do that, that was great. They came out for me, No, they came out for Robin Bruce Simmons. But that's another story. It's all good though, and yees. So then as you know, I'm working on another film. Was not a director on White Sharks. I know that that's sometimes well, you you know, you think a lot of the white sharks, both quoth, the finned kind and the two legged kind, but this is about the finn kind that we're doing for uh, for a major streamer, and um, you know the projects working on a Korea so doing that, kids going back to school, kids coming out of school, coming back home, which is always like Europe, Papa Papa three times over. And now what's so exciting. We're getting ready for the broadcast and streaming launch of our film, The Big Payback on PBS is Independent Lens. That's right, really excited about that. I've been busy too, you know. I mean, well, you're always I've been to. I've been busy to you know, you're always busy. When iome my messages Erica, they're all like Erica Alexander's assistant, and it's like, who's like doing your sean, who's doing your schedule? Well, listen, I appreciate hard work and to do this. I think it's important that people understand that we're doing all of these things while we live life and we have Really let's get a run down what you've been doing over the last year. If I was making they'd be proud of me because I've had several jobs. I've had several jobs. Check this. I've done four television series, five movies, including co directing The Big Payback with you another audio series. We did really well with that among a ton of other things to survive. I even got a chance to watch a few movies, you know, actually go out and do that. I'm a little tired just thinking about it. The Renaissance wom but I am. And by the way, since then, the world has moved Congress. They've even had another attempt at an insurrection kind of you know. McCarthy is, um, can you believe that? That's freaky? Our latest export to Brazil. McCarthy is, yes, how the storm a capital. This is nuts. It just shows you how connected the United States is the world, how influential it is. It really matters what happens here. Absolutely, Just I just want to go back to one thing. I just wanted to get your thoughts on what it was like, after three night years to see that film in the theater for the first time. It was a beautiful moment. My mother came in for it, and our friends, and it's also was my directorial debut with you, and so I have to thank you because you taught me a lot about directing films and specifically documentaries and how to manage the process. You know, I have a lot to learn in those areas, But I was as proud that after everything that happened in and just everything we had to do, including different podcasts, we were there and we were in that moment, and I thought I looked really sexy too, but I was I didn't think in the moment that I really took it in like I should have. But afterwards there was a lot of you know, deep thoughts and a lot of grateful, gratitude thoughts. I loved that. What about you, how did you feel? My favorite moment, You know, you do this thing for a lot of different reasons. My favorite moment, uh we launched the film was I think I don't know if you remember the second screening it TRACKBACKA a woman got up using tears. She said, I feel like I just watched the super Bowl and black people won boom, And that was like the nicest compliment and he's ever given me about a movie I've made, so I was really exciting. Wow, that's a great moment. I mean, you know, it's beautiful to have those moments, but we have to really deal with the fact that if we can't even stop the swarm in Congress of people breaking windows and doing those type of things and we thought there would be a lot of goodwill after the public lynching of George Floyd. It doesn't seem to have had a lasting effect. And I'm not being cynical when I say a murder seems to get you like two years of progress, And that's not funny. How that's like funny queer? Like, what gives? Why the violent swings? What do white people want? What? What will it take for white folks to stop being day trippers to a struggle of blacks in America? And how can we get this going? You know, it's funny because I think I have sort of two feelings about Erica, one in that are both exalted and disappointed. And exalted in the sense that I had people in my life, white people in my life talking to me about race um in a way they never had during two thousand and twenty in ways I never thought they would in two thousand and twenty, and so it was so exciting to finally see a big group of white Americans for the first time actually glrappling with their relationship to race. That disappointment, of course, comes from what you said. You know, it's fades, It does fade, But that's always what it is right two steps forward and nine ten steps back, but you still have to like say, okay, well I think we did get that point one ten percent forward. Yeah, we keep offering excuses, and I think another excuse can't cut it. After four years of no action on reparations, I mean, we have nurses going on strike. That means people aren't getting what they need on a basic level inside of America, which should be able to at least guarantee healthcare. I mean, reparations is a piece of it, but we have so many things going on. Eric Alexander optimist. As I said, you know earlier, I do really feel the fact that when we started this project, HR forty had been in committee for thirty years. Now it's thirty two years never getting a vote. Our film covers them finally having a debate, agreeing to debate HR for the Reparations Bill in the Judiciary Committee, and voting an out of committee after markup to take it to the floor. So whenever you look around and feel depressed, there is progress being made. Is it enough? No? But I do feel like that, you know, we've moved the ball a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, that's I guess. Something. Well, while we were doing other things in these talks, I was invited to address the double a CP about storytelling of all things. Well, you are a storyteller, I am. And I caught up to them in Baltimore, Maryland, and they were having their staff retreat there, so I got a chance to talk to their executives questions about reparations. When the big Juna, Derek Johnson steps out live and in living color, so I took that chance to get his take on whether this was really the right moment for reparations in America and what do you say? A whole lot to say. He was in a hurry, by the way, so you know he was multitasking. He kind of stopped and chopped it up with me, but yeah, he was. He was on even gave a quick shout out to the pioneers in this movement. Well, Derrick Johnson, President and CEO of the n a CP. Preparation is an important question that we must address in this country for African Americans. Anytime you've had state sanctioned, this nation's sanctions harm against our community, whether it's segregation, slavery, redlining, or elimination out of the financial systems, we must make whole all of the families and the descendates who have been impacted. But reparation is also a global question because global companies have also exploited the continent of Africa, exploited African people, and displaced us in ways in which we have been paralyzed in terms of our future aspirations. So we are now positioned to do something about it. The double a CP, when Conman Conyers began to stir up this question around reparations through HR forty, but then a CP supported the Republican New Africa was a part of the group in Detroit at that time who begin to push for this question. Ron Daniels has been on the front line of this Amari Baraka Shoque LAMMBA. So it's very important for us to not only recognized, to fight this in front of us. To understand how we got to this place. Well, you know, it's funny, and I think that in order to understand the present, you always need to understand the past. And I think that the context of the story. So many people don't really understand the context of the story, and that's something that we really tried to do with the film, is to show that this moment that where HR four he gets passed out of committee, where Robin Ruth Simmons finally passes a tax funded respirations bill, and Evans Illinois. It's a point on a continuum, it's not a point in time. And I think it's really important to understand that, understand what it means. Yeah, for sure. I mean there have been a lot of folks who have tried to pull this bad boy up the mountaintop. But it's like taking a trip with the Grinch, who still Christmas after he stole all the toys and he's sitting on the mountain peak watching the sunrise. Remember, poor Max's dog is exhausted from hauling. There's lay up the hill. Okay, but you get the point. So who's the dog in this in this scenario, and who's the green sitting on the sled with all the presents? I don't know the answer. I don't want to know the answer. That you know the answer. They look like you. They've got all the gifts and they're watching everybody suffering who town. But you know, black people continue to move on and get things done. That's a beautiful thing. But that's a Christmas. Tell the grinch and all that I mean. Derrick Johnson also had a few things to say about the state owning the responsibility towards reparations. You think about Dr King's book, While We Came Wait in this chapter to Todays to Come, he didn't call it reparations, but what he was advocating for for the state, the nation to make whole African America's or what he called the g I b of for poor people, a g I BO that was similar to what they gave to world with two veterans, but due to individuals who have been displaced in ways out of the workforce because of mechanizations, individuals who were discriminated against bocause of race, poor white folks who have been explored as well. Even Dr King, if you read that chapter, talks about the need for this nation, through public policy, to address the harms the injuries of African Americans and other individuals. I am absolutely in supportive reparations. We have to do it decisively, we have to do it smartly, and we need to be clear and not create internal fights around the question. And know that anytime you have state sponsored harm, there should be state sponsors repair. That's called reparations. Yeah, I mean, I agree that the state owns it. But the idea that there's um not gonna be fight and argument and discussion around such a complex project, I think is just not realistic. I mean that was one of the things that really really really was my education in making this film is that, you know, in some ways it's easier on the white side because if you believe you you can just advocate for reparations, right, so I think the stense, but on the black side actually being what it is, who gets it in what form and what amount? These are really serious, complex questions, and so the idea that it's there's not going to be, you know, a debate around the question or fight srongestion is just there's almost be an American right to like actually not to to not fight about something. Yeah. But you know, speaking of which, you know, we never really talked about who was in this film. You just mentioned it. The Alder woman, Robert Ruth Simmons had these type of conversations and internal debates, didn't she. Yeah, And I think that's what you know, when when you watch the film, you'll see it's not just all white people are against reparations. There's a lot of white people for reparations. Not all black people are for represations. There's a lot of black people against reparations. There's also black people who think who don't agree on Pan African reparations versus Ato's reparations. It's a really complicated equation. And one of the things I really admire about Robin and what I hope people can see in the film is that in some ways, she made a complicated problem simple two ways. The first thing she did is she got people who agreed that reparations were needed, and people would say, without deciding agreeing what that was, she agreed that the money had to be earmarked for. And the second thing is she created a process that led to an under standing of what the reparations in her community were needed. And it became sort of this logical road to reparations for housing discrimination. Right. And then they dealt with everything that happened with that. They had a great historian to help them figure out what's going on. It's going to be that way each time you go into a different city. They got to figure out what can be done locally and what people are really interested in addressing. Right, Yeah, that's hopefully Again, the lesson of the film is that every community is going to be different. Way to approach is that how reparations are don Evanston is gonna be different than it has come outed under Detroit, San Diego, Jackson to the Mississippi. There's not a direct line between slavery and every community. There's a line, but sometimes it's a squiggly line. It's connected different things. And especially when you start talking about the legacy of slavery and the embedded structure that kept black people from participating fully in both civic life and building wealth through American capital is m It's in some form in every community, and hopefully that people can see that this is a model for how to get to what that is and then a model for how to come up with a solution how to address it. Speaking of models, we should talk about Sheila Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, Wow, you know uh all this was going on, has officially called for an executive order something that Biden would sign to bring HR forty about and we could get on with the study. Tell us what HR forty is again. HR forty is a bill to study slavery and its legacy. How it's impacted Black Americans and make appropriate remedies, recommend appropriate remedies for dealing with those injuries and how to repair them. But it's just a study bill. It's not a bill that earmarks money. It's not a bill that says who gets it, It's not a build says how much. And this is what's always been so confusing about the resistance. HR forty. It's just a bill to talk compotent, and they're still huge resistant, right. And so I asked Derrick Johnson, president of the c P, whether he supported an executive order for HR forty. Well, we would like to see the language of the executive order, but I think all efforts are important to move in this direction. I'm also watching when it's taken place in San Francisco, where's taking place in the state of California, when they put other that commission. Dr Amos Brown are San Francisco Branch president is a part of leading that effort. So we're seeing these type of efforts not only ever seen in Illinois, but across the country because we recognize that that the government has created impediments in various or African Americans that truly live out what we call an American dream, and we need to ensure that communities, families are made whole because of those impediments. See, that's great. He loves an executive order too, but he's interested in the language of it. I think that's a big deal. Everybody's now saying the down for Biden to bring about an executive order for our forty, and I think that that's really the only way that this is gonna done in the next couple years, especially now with the Republican House, is that even though Representative Jackson Lee had the votes, she had the votes to pass out of the House, the leadership, as much as I love Nancy Pelosi, did not bring it to the floor. And I think they did not put the floor because they were afraid of the mid terms. And so now with the House and the hands of Republicans, the only way that HR forty is going to happen now is to an executive order. That's right, and that's why my next question to Derek Johnson was very important. Did he think that reparations would happen in our lifetime? Freedom is a constant struggle, So it's not about what we see, is about what we do to make sure we are part of this continuum to ensure that our future is a future of freedom in a way in which our answers is only dreamed for. Wow, you know what that makes me think about Erica is that it also it's not only what our ancestors would dream of. I also feel like it's what you're in my contemporaries would dream of to actually live in a world where reparations is taking place, and then you and I and I think all black and white Americans could have a different relationship with the other and actually built towards something much more cohesive. So it's not just ancestors. I think it's also for us as well, of course, and that's what we're talking about. It's that freedom must be a reality. But in our building of what reparations could provide for the world, it's all a dream right now, and that we're dream and hope and all these things keep coming up when we talk about reparations, which I think is kind of beautiful because it says that we're striving for something, But it's also mixed with the hard facts of what I think my people deserve. So that's why we have so many I think wide swings, you know, people who are for it and people who are against it. But right in the middle there is freedom and dream and all the beautiful things we say we can be in America. But you know what we're always going to come up against. The obstacle in the obstacle now is that we need help from white people. Didn't you ask him about them, you know, Whitney. I did ask him that. I wondered, how can we build a coalition with white folks? And he had a good answer for it, be focused on public policy and not be distracted by tribalism and mothering. Mothering is a distraction around the questions of public policy. And if we are focused on public policy, we are up to uphold that social contract we call the Constitution. Is not a one community responsibility, is a joint responsibility of all citizens of this country. And therefore we must be a coalitions coalitions. Everyone always says that word coalitions. What is the coalition? What's a white coalition? In fact, what's the coalition? Damn? A coalition? Why I think about it is it's a group that shares goals but don't necessarily share motivations. And so you have to learn how well done with me? How to find people that you share goals with and the idea of your motivations are kind of irrelevant. And I think there's so much time people focus on who we are and where we're coming from. I can work with you towards something that we both agree as important without necessarily completely understanding you or your experience. And I think that's what's really critical in this is that white Americans and Black Americans who mean well and want reparations are moving towards it for two very different reasons. Okay, I think that's interesting because Robert Luce Simmons, who's an alder woman, and Eviston had to make a coalition among the council people. Was it um five white council people to three black? But they got it through. And that was the amazing thing. That's coalition building, isn't it? And that isactly what I said, is that the people of the fifth Ward and the people the third ward have very different motivations for wanting to get it done, but they did come together and get it done. That's cool. That's what we need more of that. Now you're getting all like warm and fuzzy on me, so you're start singing. Imagine soon. No, really well hopeful. I guess that's optimistic. You know, the thing that they get the biggest pushback for. And there are people in this film that thought that they weren't responsible for what happened in the past, and why should they be held responsible for it? So what's the answer to that when white people say that? And I got a chance to ask Derek Johnson this question, because I think that's what people struggle with, is how do you answer that in a modern day that people who live here, whether they came after slavery or live now because they were born after slavery, have any responsibility for the past, wrong or right? And uh, I think he had a really good answer on it. We keep pushing because our truth is the truth, and the truth is what we need to step on and stand on firmly to ensure that we are made hold as a community for our future. You know, those are really nice sentiments, and I agree that we have to keep pushing for the truth. But I also think that sometimes focusing on responsibility about the past is not the question. It's not about responsibility for the past, it's about responsibility to the present. And that I think if you say, okay, I'm responsible for this thing it happened. No, you're responsible for the conditions of the community that you live in now. And if you believe that things are unjust and you want to change it, then you have to come together and work for change. Yeah, but it's white people are saying that, and they don't believe that there's have any relationship to what you just said. No, but I think that there that's because I think they're focusing on the wrong thing. They're saying, oh, this is in the past. They're not looking at the problem now and saying, you know, whether or not I created that, I live in this unequal present, and if I believe in justice, I need to address the injuries that exist from the past now if I want a better future, right, I think that's hard going to be hard. So no matter how you put it, Because if people don't think they're affected by the past at all and they're doing something for the people who so called are affected by it, I don't think they realize that they have been injured and that there's injury to themselves and their future. Their family and everything around them is being pulled down because we haven't addressed it. And that's what I'd say to white people that if you don't think you're being affected by the past, you are. If you're seeing systemic things happening in the society that you think are just affecting people based on whether they're just newly here or they have a different color, or there might just be inequity and inequality baked into every society, you're not really understanding how systems work. That if one part of the population is being affected unjustly and you can't look at the systemic issues or what caused it and say, you know, we have a responsibility to address it no matter who did it, then you also aren't looking at how this thing might affect you. And I think over and over again, if we look at the cities, if you look at the things that happen inside of rule areas, if we look at all sorts of things that African Americans have issue with, we'd see that they are overwhelmingly affecting the lives of all Americans. And we have to see ourselves not only in this fight for the people, but in a fight for our own lives. If you see someone drowning Erica, you don't not help them because you don't think you're responsible for them fully and maybe you push them in, maybe you didn't, but the fact is that that person is part of your community and needs help, and by you taking that action, you will be doing something not only for them, but for you. And if you don't take action, I think you will continue to exacerbate your own injury. And that sounds really weird and kind of like, uh, you know, countertuitive. But if you don't take action, you injure yourself absolutely. And I also think over and over again, black people have been trying to save white people from themselves. And I know that's a harsh thing to say, but the drowning person is not the black person, is the white person. You get a chance to save yourself, And if you think that the other person is drowning in, you're not trust and believe it is you drowning. Black people are used to doggy paddling, you know, and floating on our backs, you know. The weird part is and I love the water metaphor maybe because that's what Martin Luther king City says. We might have gotten here on different ships, but we all in the same boat now, and that's real. So to sort of like bring this you know back around, Eric, I guess the thing is is that we're at the end of this particular journey, right, the particular journey of this film, and in some ways you arbitrarily in the story, right, we arbitrarily into this story at a particular moment in time. But the story goes on, and UM really excited for people to see this film, and I'm even more exciting to see where Robin were represented, Jackson Lee and where the movement goes next. That's true. But you know what, Unfortunately, like a really great film, this is a franchise. So this film has not ended. Now this is part one, and I love that you said that this film is not just a film. It's a tool and people are using it to have conversations and to build their own reparations programs within cities. They're also able to talk about it and screen it. And we're doing a debate series that people should know about and we're really excited about that. This debate series called The Big Payback. We'll go through HBCUs and predominantly white institutions and all over American communities and we'll be able to talk about something that people for a long time have been afraid of and thought was controversial, but we're able to normalize discussing reparations and see if we can get the help of the best minds and stoke the fires about this and get in there really have some ownership of it. And so that's why I'm excited. This thing has been great. It's been great doing it with you. Thank you so much for your hard work. And I think we should give a really great shout out to the filmmaking ben are none we can not do without us, Anne Parker, Melissa Chris Kevin. I mean, there's been so many people who made this film possibly and also the other thing I would ask you area, where can people get more information? Oh, they should go to the Big Payback movie dot com. They should also go to First Repair dot Org Robin Ruth Simmons organization. If they're interested in doing something in their city. There's going to be a full discussion guide about the film and also how to make it happen yourself. I think that's cool, that's sexy. We always talk about the power of the biggest nation, which is imagination, and I think that's what we need to do right now in this moment, is imagine a world and then make it happen. See you, Whitney Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with Best Case Studio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

I'm Erica Alexander and I'm Whitney. Now welcome to reparations The Big Payback, a production of Color Farm Media, I Heart Radio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. So here we are. Yeah, here we are, back in the saddle, back in the saddle. I'm glad we came back here to celebrate our big premiere of The Big Payback documentary. I mean, we've come full circle. Absolutely, it's really exciting to be back here talking about this. I mean, when I met you what three and a half almost four years ago, the idea that we'd be now here four years later talking about the premiere of the documentary, that we would have done a podcast. You're not doing a follow up episode to the podcast. I wouldn't believed it. But uh, it certainly has been quite a year. It's been a big year, and so congratulations to us, dude, and to everyone who worked on It's been a real push to get here. I have a hernia to prove it. Actually, I'm not kidding about that. I do. But anyway, I'm excited to talk about our film. But before we do, let's talk about what you've been doing since we've been gone all this time. What have you been up to. As I said, it's been a pretty intense year, you know, I look about you know, here we are in January. Last January, we were pushing to finish the end of the film, wrapping it up, scoring it and mixing it, coloring it, getting it ready for Tribeca, launching it Tribeca. That big show that we did at the Apollo Theater in New York, which was so big. That was sexy, wasn't it great? That was one of my my favorite events. Free event on June tenth, the big payback at the Apollo Theater. That was a lot of fun. It's pretty awesome, very awesome. And to the people who came out on Father's Day, by the way to do that, that was great. They came out for me, No, they came out for Robin Bruce Simmons. But that's another story. It's all good though, and yees. So then as you know, I'm working on another film. Was not a director on White Sharks. I know that that's sometimes well, you you know, you think a lot of the white sharks, both quoth, the finned kind and the two legged kind, but this is about the finn kind that we're doing for uh, for a major streamer, and um, you know the projects working on a Korea so doing that, kids going back to school, kids coming out of school, coming back home, which is always like Europe, Papa Papa three times over. And now what's so exciting. We're getting ready for the broadcast and streaming launch of our film, The Big Payback on PBS is Independent Lens. That's right, really excited about that. I've been busy too, you know. I mean, well, you're always I've been to. I've been busy to you know, you're always busy. When iome my messages Erica, they're all like Erica Alexander's assistant, and it's like, who's like doing your sean, who's doing your schedule? Well, listen, I appreciate hard work and to do this. I think it's important that people understand that we're doing all of these things while we live life and we have Really let's get a run down what you've been doing over the last year. If I was making they'd be proud of me because I've had several jobs. I've had several jobs. Check this. I've done four television series, five movies, including co directing The Big Payback with you another audio series. We did really well with that among a ton of other things to survive. I even got a chance to watch a few movies, you know, actually go out and do that. I'm a little tired just thinking about it. The Renaissance wom but I am. And by the way, since then, the world has moved Congress. They've even had another attempt at an insurrection kind of you know. McCarthy is, um, can you believe that? That's freaky? Our latest export to Brazil. McCarthy is, yes, how the storm a capital. This is nuts. It just shows you how connected the United States is the world, how influential it is. It really matters what happens here. Absolutely, Just I just want to go back to one thing. I just wanted to get your thoughts on what it was like, after three night years to see that film in the theater for the first time. It was a beautiful moment. My mother came in for it, and our friends, and it's also was my directorial debut with you, and so I have to thank you because you taught me a lot about directing films and specifically documentaries and how to manage the process. You know, I have a lot to learn in those areas, But I was as proud that after everything that happened in and just everything we had to do, including different podcasts, we were there and we were in that moment, and I thought I looked really sexy too, but I was I didn't think in the moment that I really took it in like I should have. But afterwards there was a lot of you know, deep thoughts and a lot of grateful, gratitude thoughts. I loved that. What about you, how did you feel? My favorite moment, You know, you do this thing for a lot of different reasons. My favorite moment, uh we launched the film was I think I don't know if you remember the second screening it TRACKBACKA a woman got up using tears. She said, I feel like I just watched the super Bowl and black people won boom, And that was like the nicest compliment and he's ever given me about a movie I've made, so I was really exciting. Wow, that's a great moment. I mean, you know, it's beautiful to have those moments, but we have to really deal with the fact that if we can't even stop the swarm in Congress of people breaking windows and doing those type of things and we thought there would be a lot of goodwill after the public lynching of George Floyd. It doesn't seem to have had a lasting effect. And I'm not being cynical when I say a murder seems to get you like two years of progress, And that's not funny. How that's like funny queer? Like, what gives? Why the violent swings? What do white people want? What? What will it take for white folks to stop being day trippers to a struggle of blacks in America? And how can we get this going? You know, it's funny because I think I have sort of two feelings about Erica, one in that are both exalted and disappointed. And exalted in the sense that I had people in my life, white people in my life talking to me about race um in a way they never had during two thousand and twenty in ways I never thought they would in two thousand and twenty, and so it was so exciting to finally see a big group of white Americans for the first time actually glrappling with their relationship to race. That disappointment, of course, comes from what you said. You know, it's fades, It does fade, But that's always what it is right two steps forward and nine ten steps back, but you still have to like say, okay, well I think we did get that point one ten percent forward. Yeah, we keep offering excuses, and I think another excuse can't cut it. After four years of no action on reparations, I mean, we have nurses going on strike. That means people aren't getting what they need on a basic level inside of America, which should be able to at least guarantee healthcare. I mean, reparations is a piece of it, but we have so many things going on. Eric Alexander optimist. As I said, you know earlier, I do really feel the fact that when we started this project, HR forty had been in committee for thirty years. Now it's thirty two years never getting a vote. Our film covers them finally having a debate, agreeing to debate HR for the Reparations Bill in the Judiciary Committee, and voting an out of committee after markup to take it to the floor. So whenever you look around and feel depressed, there is progress being made. Is it enough? No? But I do feel like that, you know, we've moved the ball a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, that's I guess. Something. Well, while we were doing other things in these talks, I was invited to address the double a CP about storytelling of all things. Well, you are a storyteller, I am. And I caught up to them in Baltimore, Maryland, and they were having their staff retreat there, so I got a chance to talk to their executives questions about reparations. When the big Juna, Derek Johnson steps out live and in living color, so I took that chance to get his take on whether this was really the right moment for reparations in America and what do you say? A whole lot to say. He was in a hurry, by the way, so you know he was multitasking. He kind of stopped and chopped it up with me, but yeah, he was. He was on even gave a quick shout out to the pioneers in this movement. Well, Derrick Johnson, President and CEO of the n a CP. Preparation is an important question that we must address in this country for African Americans. Anytime you've had state sanctioned, this nation's sanctions harm against our community, whether it's segregation, slavery, redlining, or elimination out of the financial systems, we must make whole all of the families and the descendates who have been impacted. But reparation is also a global question because global companies have also exploited the continent of Africa, exploited African people, and displaced us in ways in which we have been paralyzed in terms of our future aspirations. So we are now positioned to do something about it. The double a CP, when Conman Conyers began to stir up this question around reparations through HR forty, but then a CP supported the Republican New Africa was a part of the group in Detroit at that time who begin to push for this question. Ron Daniels has been on the front line of this Amari Baraka Shoque LAMMBA. So it's very important for us to not only recognized, to fight this in front of us. To understand how we got to this place. Well, you know, it's funny, and I think that in order to understand the present, you always need to understand the past. And I think that the context of the story. So many people don't really understand the context of the story, and that's something that we really tried to do with the film, is to show that this moment that where HR four he gets passed out of committee, where Robin Ruth Simmons finally passes a tax funded respirations bill, and Evans Illinois. It's a point on a continuum, it's not a point in time. And I think it's really important to understand that, understand what it means. Yeah, for sure. I mean there have been a lot of folks who have tried to pull this bad boy up the mountaintop. But it's like taking a trip with the Grinch, who still Christmas after he stole all the toys and he's sitting on the mountain peak watching the sunrise. Remember, poor Max's dog is exhausted from hauling. There's lay up the hill. Okay, but you get the point. So who's the dog in this in this scenario, and who's the green sitting on the sled with all the presents? I don't know the answer. I don't want to know the answer. That you know the answer. They look like you. They've got all the gifts and they're watching everybody suffering who town. But you know, black people continue to move on and get things done. That's a beautiful thing. But that's a Christmas. Tell the grinch and all that I mean. Derrick Johnson also had a few things to say about the state owning the responsibility towards reparations. You think about Dr King's book, While We Came Wait in this chapter to Todays to Come, he didn't call it reparations, but what he was advocating for for the state, the nation to make whole African America's or what he called the g I b of for poor people, a g I BO that was similar to what they gave to world with two veterans, but due to individuals who have been displaced in ways out of the workforce because of mechanizations, individuals who were discriminated against bocause of race, poor white folks who have been explored as well. Even Dr King, if you read that chapter, talks about the need for this nation, through public policy, to address the harms the injuries of African Americans and other individuals. I am absolutely in supportive reparations. We have to do it decisively, we have to do it smartly, and we need to be clear and not create internal fights around the question. And know that anytime you have state sponsored harm, there should be state sponsors repair. That's called reparations. Yeah, I mean, I agree that the state owns it. But the idea that there's um not gonna be fight and argument and discussion around such a complex project, I think is just not realistic. I mean that was one of the things that really really really was my education in making this film is that, you know, in some ways it's easier on the white side because if you believe you you can just advocate for reparations, right, so I think the stense, but on the black side actually being what it is, who gets it in what form and what amount? These are really serious, complex questions, and so the idea that it's there's not going to be, you know, a debate around the question or fight srongestion is just there's almost be an American right to like actually not to to not fight about something. Yeah. But you know, speaking of which, you know, we never really talked about who was in this film. You just mentioned it. The Alder woman, Robert Ruth Simmons had these type of conversations and internal debates, didn't she. Yeah, And I think that's what you know, when when you watch the film, you'll see it's not just all white people are against reparations. There's a lot of white people for reparations. Not all black people are for represations. There's a lot of black people against reparations. There's also black people who think who don't agree on Pan African reparations versus Ato's reparations. It's a really complicated equation. And one of the things I really admire about Robin and what I hope people can see in the film is that in some ways, she made a complicated problem simple two ways. The first thing she did is she got people who agreed that reparations were needed, and people would say, without deciding agreeing what that was, she agreed that the money had to be earmarked for. And the second thing is she created a process that led to an under standing of what the reparations in her community were needed. And it became sort of this logical road to reparations for housing discrimination. Right. And then they dealt with everything that happened with that. They had a great historian to help them figure out what's going on. It's going to be that way each time you go into a different city. They got to figure out what can be done locally and what people are really interested in addressing. Right, Yeah, that's hopefully Again, the lesson of the film is that every community is going to be different. Way to approach is that how reparations are don Evanston is gonna be different than it has come outed under Detroit, San Diego, Jackson to the Mississippi. There's not a direct line between slavery and every community. There's a line, but sometimes it's a squiggly line. It's connected different things. And especially when you start talking about the legacy of slavery and the embedded structure that kept black people from participating fully in both civic life and building wealth through American capital is m It's in some form in every community, and hopefully that people can see that this is a model for how to get to what that is and then a model for how to come up with a solution how to address it. Speaking of models, we should talk about Sheila Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, Wow, you know uh all this was going on, has officially called for an executive order something that Biden would sign to bring HR forty about and we could get on with the study. Tell us what HR forty is again. HR forty is a bill to study slavery and its legacy. How it's impacted Black Americans and make appropriate remedies, recommend appropriate remedies for dealing with those injuries and how to repair them. But it's just a study bill. It's not a bill that earmarks money. It's not a bill that says who gets it, It's not a build says how much. And this is what's always been so confusing about the resistance. HR forty. It's just a bill to talk compotent, and they're still huge resistant, right. And so I asked Derrick Johnson, president of the c P, whether he supported an executive order for HR forty. Well, we would like to see the language of the executive order, but I think all efforts are important to move in this direction. I'm also watching when it's taken place in San Francisco, where's taking place in the state of California, when they put other that commission. Dr Amos Brown are San Francisco Branch president is a part of leading that effort. So we're seeing these type of efforts not only ever seen in Illinois, but across the country because we recognize that that the government has created impediments in various or African Americans that truly live out what we call an American dream, and we need to ensure that communities, families are made whole because of those impediments. See, that's great. He loves an executive order too, but he's interested in the language of it. I think that's a big deal. Everybody's now saying the down for Biden to bring about an executive order for our forty, and I think that that's really the only way that this is gonna done in the next couple years, especially now with the Republican House, is that even though Representative Jackson Lee had the votes, she had the votes to pass out of the House, the leadership, as much as I love Nancy Pelosi, did not bring it to the floor. And I think they did not put the floor because they were afraid of the mid terms. And so now with the House and the hands of Republicans, the only way that HR forty is going to happen now is to an executive order. That's right, and that's why my next question to Derek Johnson was very important. Did he think that reparations would happen in our lifetime? Freedom is a constant struggle, So it's not about what we see, is about what we do to make sure we are part of this continuum to ensure that our future is a future of freedom in a way in which our answers is only dreamed for. Wow, you know what that makes me think about Erica is that it also it's not only what our ancestors would dream of. I also feel like it's what you're in my contemporaries would dream of to actually live in a world where reparations is taking place, and then you and I and I think all black and white Americans could have a different relationship with the other and actually built towards something much more cohesive. So it's not just ancestors. I think it's also for us as well, of course, and that's what we're talking about. It's that freedom must be a reality. But in our building of what reparations could provide for the world, it's all a dream right now, and that we're dream and hope and all these things keep coming up when we talk about reparations, which I think is kind of beautiful because it says that we're striving for something, But it's also mixed with the hard facts of what I think my people deserve. So that's why we have so many I think wide swings, you know, people who are for it and people who are against it. But right in the middle there is freedom and dream and all the beautiful things we say we can be in America. But you know what we're always going to come up against. The obstacle in the obstacle now is that we need help from white people. Didn't you ask him about them, you know, Whitney. I did ask him that. I wondered, how can we build a coalition with white folks? And he had a good answer for it, be focused on public policy and not be distracted by tribalism and mothering. Mothering is a distraction around the questions of public policy. And if we are focused on public policy, we are up to uphold that social contract we call the Constitution. Is not a one community responsibility, is a joint responsibility of all citizens of this country. And therefore we must be a coalitions coalitions. Everyone always says that word coalitions. What is the coalition? What's a white coalition? In fact, what's the coalition? Damn? A coalition? Why I think about it is it's a group that shares goals but don't necessarily share motivations. And so you have to learn how well done with me? How to find people that you share goals with and the idea of your motivations are kind of irrelevant. And I think there's so much time people focus on who we are and where we're coming from. I can work with you towards something that we both agree as important without necessarily completely understanding you or your experience. And I think that's what's really critical in this is that white Americans and Black Americans who mean well and want reparations are moving towards it for two very different reasons. Okay, I think that's interesting because Robert Luce Simmons, who's an alder woman, and Eviston had to make a coalition among the council people. Was it um five white council people to three black? But they got it through. And that was the amazing thing. That's coalition building, isn't it? And that isactly what I said, is that the people of the fifth Ward and the people the third ward have very different motivations for wanting to get it done, but they did come together and get it done. That's cool. That's what we need more of that. Now you're getting all like warm and fuzzy on me, so you're start singing. Imagine soon. No, really well hopeful. I guess that's optimistic. You know, the thing that they get the biggest pushback for. And there are people in this film that thought that they weren't responsible for what happened in the past, and why should they be held responsible for it? So what's the answer to that when white people say that? And I got a chance to ask Derek Johnson this question, because I think that's what people struggle with, is how do you answer that in a modern day that people who live here, whether they came after slavery or live now because they were born after slavery, have any responsibility for the past, wrong or right? And uh, I think he had a really good answer on it. We keep pushing because our truth is the truth, and the truth is what we need to step on and stand on firmly to ensure that we are made hold as a community for our future. You know, those are really nice sentiments, and I agree that we have to keep pushing for the truth. But I also think that sometimes focusing on responsibility about the past is not the question. It's not about responsibility for the past, it's about responsibility to the present. And that I think if you say, okay, I'm responsible for this thing it happened. No, you're responsible for the conditions of the community that you live in now. And if you believe that things are unjust and you want to change it, then you have to come together and work for change. Yeah, but it's white people are saying that, and they don't believe that there's have any relationship to what you just said. No, but I think that there that's because I think they're focusing on the wrong thing. They're saying, oh, this is in the past. They're not looking at the problem now and saying, you know, whether or not I created that, I live in this unequal present, and if I believe in justice, I need to address the injuries that exist from the past now if I want a better future, right, I think that's hard going to be hard. So no matter how you put it, Because if people don't think they're affected by the past at all and they're doing something for the people who so called are affected by it, I don't think they realize that they have been injured and that there's injury to themselves and their future. Their family and everything around them is being pulled down because we haven't addressed it. And that's what I'd say to white people that if you don't think you're being affected by the past, you are. If you're seeing systemic things happening in the society that you think are just affecting people based on whether they're just newly here or they have a different color, or there might just be inequity and inequality baked into every society, you're not really understanding how systems work. That if one part of the population is being affected unjustly and you can't look at the systemic issues or what caused it and say, you know, we have a responsibility to address it no matter who did it, then you also aren't looking at how this thing might affect you. And I think over and over again, if we look at the cities, if you look at the things that happen inside of rule areas, if we look at all sorts of things that African Americans have issue with, we'd see that they are overwhelmingly affecting the lives of all Americans. And we have to see ourselves not only in this fight for the people, but in a fight for our own lives. If you see someone drowning Erica, you don't not help them because you don't think you're responsible for them fully and maybe you push them in, maybe you didn't, but the fact is that that person is part of your community and needs help, and by you taking that action, you will be doing something not only for them, but for you. And if you don't take action, I think you will continue to exacerbate your own injury. And that sounds really weird and kind of like, uh, you know, countertuitive. But if you don't take action, you injure yourself absolutely. And I also think over and over again, black people have been trying to save white people from themselves. And I know that's a harsh thing to say, but the drowning person is not the black person, is the white person. You get a chance to save yourself, And if you think that the other person is drowning in, you're not trust and believe it is you drowning. Black people are used to doggy paddling, you know, and floating on our backs, you know. The weird part is and I love the water metaphor maybe because that's what Martin Luther king City says. We might have gotten here on different ships, but we all in the same boat now, and that's real. So to sort of like bring this you know back around, Eric, I guess the thing is is that we're at the end of this particular journey, right, the particular journey of this film, and in some ways you arbitrarily in the story, right, we arbitrarily into this story at a particular moment in time. But the story goes on, and UM really excited for people to see this film, and I'm even more exciting to see where Robin were represented, Jackson Lee and where the movement goes next. That's true. But you know what, Unfortunately, like a really great film, this is a franchise. So this film has not ended. Now this is part one, and I love that you said that this film is not just a film. It's a tool and people are using it to have conversations and to build their own reparations programs within cities. They're also able to talk about it and screen it. And we're doing a debate series that people should know about and we're really excited about that. This debate series called The Big Payback. We'll go through HBCUs and predominantly white institutions and all over American communities and we'll be able to talk about something that people for a long time have been afraid of and thought was controversial, but we're able to normalize discussing reparations and see if we can get the help of the best minds and stoke the fires about this and get in there really have some ownership of it. And so that's why I'm excited. This thing has been great. It's been great doing it with you. Thank you so much for your hard work. And I think we should give a really great shout out to the filmmaking ben are none we can not do without us, Anne Parker, Melissa Chris Kevin. I mean, there's been so many people who made this film possibly and also the other thing I would ask you area, where can people get more information? Oh, they should go to the Big Payback movie dot com. They should also go to First Repair dot Org Robin Ruth Simmons organization. If they're interested in doing something in their city. There's going to be a full discussion guide about the film and also how to make it happen yourself. I think that's cool, that's sexy. We always talk about the power of the biggest nation, which is imagination, and I think that's what we need to do right now in this moment, is imagine a world and then make it happen. See you, Whitney Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with Best Case Studio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.