You may be a victim of gaslighting and not even know it! We’ve all heard the term, now Red Table Talk brings you the essential guide to gaslighting. "The Crown" actress Rebecca Humphries reveals the devastating damage caused by years of being gaslighted and how her boyfriend’s very public affair was the wake-up call she didn’t realize she needed. Then, psychologist Dr. Ramani breaks down everything you need to know to become gaslight-proof.
Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review on Apple podcasts. Gas Lighting the trending word that's everywhere. What exactly is it? Psychologically manipulating someone into questioning what is actually true? You question your judgment on absolutely everything. My career started to stuffer as a result. Photos of her boyfriend with another woman were splashed across tabloids around the world, and he says, if you sold the fust together, you would say we're just friends, and you would be able to see what it's like. Apath the Crowns, Rebecca Humphreys reveals the damage after years of being gaslighting. When you confronted him, would happen? Dr Romney is breaking it all the way down. It's I'm going to dominate you. You're going to live in my reality. Stop being so sensitive. You're crazy. That just happened to me. The defice native guy to spot and stop gas lighting. The people get stuck on, oh your gas lighting because you told me that never happened. That's halfway the other half is when they dismantled you. Oh that part. I love your robe, it's beautiful. Stand game. I like the cover you got on ice blue, ice blue, ice blue. I like it. Well, you know what today this is a deep one. I have lots of questions. Yeah. So, millions saw this video of a famous British comedian passionately kissing a woman in an alley, but the story behind it is anything but romantic. Before landing a coveted role on the award winning series The Crown, actress Rebecca Humphreys thought she'd met her own Prince Charming, a gifted stand up comedian known for his high energy performed says. About five years into their relationship, he was cast on the UK's popular reality show Strictly Come Dancing. Rebecca's gut told her something was off about the new friendship he'd formed with his married dance partner. When she questioned him, he called her psycho, nuts and mental. Then, on her birthday, he told her he was going out for an innocent drink with his dance partner, and Rebecca's worst fears came true. Her boyfriend caught on camera kissing his dance partner before she knew it. The explosive video made headlines around the world. Psycho nuts mental all classic signs of gaslighting. Rebecca came in from London to share her warning for all. So tell us about your relationships so we can kind of get the picture. We were together for about five and a half years. What's so important, pippin forward to connect with. It's not that this relationship was toxic. This relationship had moments of pure romance and sensitivity and tenderness and intimacy. But there was a cycle that on occasion took a darker turn. There were arguments, there were real moments of explosiveness, but then that would be papered over with that tenderness and intimacy that would come back in. Yeah, and let me tell you something. The feeling is like someone pushes you out of a fifteen story building and then catches you a foot above the pavement. And when they catch you above that pavement, you go, thank you so much for catching me. I think it feels so good, for so good to be alive. Yeah, it's very intoxically, it's so intoxicating, and then when that darkness comes again, you just ride it out because you're waiting for that next time that you get called it's like thrill seeking. Yeah, so what happened when you because I'm sure you tried to confront him about this, right, Okay, So that was my birthday when those pictures were taken. But I'm there at home and I'm going I know that I sort of have a weird perception of what reality is. But I feel like it's not okay for him to be out with another woman. I feel like that is not all right. But I don't know if it is like I don't know if I'm being needy or you know, whatever it is about me. He's appeared on Dancing with the Stars over here, but in the UK it's strictly come dancing, and he's OK. He's done a great job for two of them. And so he comes through the door and I say, I feel as though there's something happening here, and I remember it so clearly. He stands there on the doorway and I'm on the bed and I'm crying, and he says, I just feel like if you saw the two of us together, you would see we're just friends, and you would be able to see what a psychopath you are. Wow, M that's gas lady, and the next day again a text message saying, Hi, I feel really bad about what happened last night. Maybe this weekend we can have a special day and I'll make up for it. And I go, okay, we're back on track. Everything's great. Cut to three days later and he just says, the tabloids have got pictures of me and the dancer kissing, and I am telling you, I will never ever forget the moment. I've described it as like a photocopier. This white light just started here and when all the way through my body when he told me, and I just went oh, and my face just lit up because I was right. And if I was right about that, what else have I been right about? Rebecca's ex apologize, saying, in light of today's newspaper, I would later off from my sincere apologies from my actions. This is no excuse, but it was one off drunken mistake, which I'm truly sorry for. There's no mention of me, there's no apology to me. I hadn't been apologized to at all. Yeah, they have it that make you feel. That wasn't the first time I'd heard the words one off drunken mistake. I tell you it happened many, many years before, when I had found messages between him and another woman, sexual explicit messages on Facebook. We shared a laptop and he obviously hadn't logged out. I was like, we're done. Him. A few days later, he's begging for me back, of course, and he says it was a one off drunken mistake and I'm truly sorry, got it. And so when this statement comes out almost five years later, so I'm like, do you have learned that being sorry for a one off drunken mistake works? And it's because I enabled it? Yeah, it's because the last time I chose to believe it. I say that gas lighting feels like tiny poison arrows and you don't notice them they're so light. But what they do is they inject poison into your body until poison is just pumping around your veins and you don't even know. Can you give us any other examples of how you were gas with stuff like you remembered it wrong, It didn't happen like that, It happened like this, Or I didn't say that thing that you're saying hurt you. I didn't say it. And then I repeated it as well, Okay, maybe I did, but I didn't say like that, not in that tone, you know, in that way. And it sounds really small, but it's incremental gaslighting is so insidious and exactly that it can go on for years and years and years without you even realize that that you're waking up in the morning with a part of you eroded away over time, and you're so used to being shut down that your instinct is to say that hurt me. But I've been told so many times, actually my brain kind of doesn't work that I'm just not gonna say it right. And before you know what's happening, you question your judgment on absolutely everything, until suddenly there you are in the grocery store one day, not even knowing what food tastes good in your own mouth, and you just don't know what to bar. You don't want to get things wrong, your question in your judgment at every turn. My career started to suffer as a result. An actress and a writer use my voice, well, you livest voice. I lost my voice. My voice has been dismissed for so long that I start to not even utilize it or use it. The question is when we're in relationships like this. What is it about us as women in particular, who are prepared to betray ourselves and our feelings in order to sustain these relationships that hurt us? Came then let's talk about death because that's a deep subject. Pop culture and the media told me that it's very important for me to have a relationship because I'm a woman, you know, straight up, all I know is that you have to have a man. I have to have a man otherwise what am I worth? Right? Because unfortunately that's what we're told. We're not worth anything unless we got a man. And that's the thing I think we as women, we're supposed to give everything that's valuable, our self dignity to make allowances to have this relationship that makes you worth something. I mean, a huge thing that I have learned as a result of this relationship is that I don't have to stand next to anybody to be worth something, right. I don't have to wait for anyone to make me un invisible. Right. I am in charge of my visibility. People need to know that you think your life will be worse by leaving, Yeah, But when I left that relationship, that's when my life started. It was like my sanity was handed to me in an instant moment. When he told me the tabloids have got pictures of me and the dancer kissing. It was like a cleanse. It felt like pure empowerment. Was it that moment that you decided to just break ties? It was that moment good for you? And I was like, wow, I'm liberated. It's good for you. Thank you. So. One of the world's leading experts on gas lighting and an RTT favorite, Dr Romney, is here to help us. She also has an awesome new podcast navigating Narcissism, Dr Romney, How would you define gaslighting? Gas Lighting is a form of psychological manipulation, an emotional abuse in which a person's reality is doubted. It is done repeatedly with the purpose of psychologically dismany, telling them and leaving them feeling as though they are mentally unwell and fully dominated by the gas lighter. Wow, this is just that never happened. I think people get stuck on, oh, your gas lighting because you told me that never happened. That's halfway. The other half is when they dismantle you. It is more than being dismissive, because dismissive is sort of you know, you're crazy, But because gas lighting is a grooming process, it doesn't happen just one time. They got to figure out that they can't even do this to you. They're testing the waters. Oh she bit, I'm in now I can dominate because if somebody fights. It's the first time said no fool, I said that exactly, and then they said, no, you're did You're crazy. I'm like, they're good, right, They're not gonna be able to gaslight. You just got the hell out of Dosh. I love that, no fool. So gas lighting has a certain level of intention, intention to dominate, right, So nobody's walking under the same I'm going to gaslight her. It's I'm going to dominate you. You're going to live in my reality, you're going to live in my narrative. And actually it was my tight charge and it happened like this, and this is how it's going to happen in the future as well. Yeah, but it's more complicated than that, Rebecca, because a lot of people don't want the relationship to end. And that's sort of the ace in the whole that the gas lighter always has. So if you push a gas lighter and you push back on it too much. I guess you're not that committed or interested. I guess you really don't want this, and you're thinking, actually, there's a lot of good days in this relationship. That's why these toxic relationships work. If they were always terrible, everyone would run screaming out after the second day. But they're not always terrible. In fact, sometimes they're so blissful they feel extraordinary, and so when they're about to pull the plug, that's when people no, no, no, you know what, Maybe I did hear it wrong. Rooming as continues. It's a process of indoctrination until you really are a shell of yourself. There's no more you left. They took it off exactly when you are kept caged for such a long time and you're being tamed, Suddenly the accusations that you start throwing at someone feel erratic and they feel huge, and they feel psychotics. And then that person goes, you see was this what did I tell you? And you go, I see their point, and it becomes the self fulfilling prophecy, the psychosis. I mean, a huge tragedy of it is that the biggest betrayal is to yourself. Yeah, yeah, it's almost as though the victim's perspective, there's like a gradual lowering of expectations that then bare minimum in a relationship. How are you? Did you have a good day? You look nice? Those things become like the sun is shining on you. You think you're in something that's actually wonderful, healthy, you do for for that moment. That's a process called bread crumbing, where you get by unless and less. Where you used to get a whole slice of bread, now you're just getting a few crumbs, and you're calling it a meal. That's deep, that's good, it's good, and the nourishment that you feel from thinking I'm fed, and you hold on hold onto those little crumbs and you turn that into a relationship in your mind. So what does a gas lighter do once they realize like in rebecca situation, right, he got caught in the alley kissing someone. It was all over the tabloids. His narrative is blown. In most cases, the narrative doesn't get blown right. The person has to live in this horrible uncertainty. The world doesn't find out. People are still doubting you. So this was an extraordinary circumstance because now it's been blown up. What happens to the gas lighter. The aim means that they're going to be on the attack. They're going to try to make themselves look good. This isn't who I really am. You're judging me unfairly. They will immediately go into a defensive position. Gas lighters defend. Gas flighting is not lying. There's a difference. Okay. Everybody thinks, oh, you're just talking about lying. No, we're not, because you can bring a liar around if you bring evidence. So if you said I wasn't there, I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and I'm like, Jadie, you were there, you were there, And then I said, Jada, here's a picture of you there, and you're like, you know what, Romany, Yeah, I didn't tell you the truth because I didn't want you to know you weren't invited. Okay. So a liar will cop to it when you give them the evidence. A gas slighter will double down on their deceit when you catch them, and they'll turn it into your crazy. So if you were gas lighting me, j do, you'd say, wow, So girlfriend's paranoid now too. You need to get some mental health help. Because only a paranoid fool would be showing me picture of where I'm at. So now it's become about me being crazy, rather than you lying about being in that place, and most people in my position, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. But by now we've moved off the story of you having been at that point that's gas lighting. Okay, it's so unbelievably validating to hear it put in those like I've been that like. It just made me think about when everything came out in the papers. Well, he was my ex boyfriend at that point and either a stand up comedy tool and said on the tool I'm not a gas lighter. I'm just a bad boyfriend. It's like and see that right, there is a gas like. It's a game of narrative control. Because we get so lost in our narratives for what we want a relationship to be, we're more vulnerable to the gas slider's tactics. I feel like in order to be in a relationship, you have to have some idea of who you are yourself. If I had my way, I would take every woman on the planet and send her to sort of a place where she's taken care of but has to be alone six to eight hours a day alone because what we do is we fetishize relationship. We fetish right, That's what we do, and people actually feel shame when they're spending time alone. Think of how many women are reluctant to even go out and have a meal by themselves because it looks bad when people are in their post gas lighting, post narcissistic phase. I prescribe a twelve month detox. Absolutely no relationships, no sex, get a vibrator, call it a day. But you are not touching anyone. You need to find you. You need to figure out what kind of pizza you like. You need to figure out what music you really do like. You need to figure out what temperature you want that thermost susceptible. Dr Romney? What are more examples of gas lighting? Stop being so sensitive. I've just told you your emotion is invalid, right, and then I'll take that one step. Stop being so sensitive. You're crazy. So any reaction I have is showing that I'm emotional, dramatic sensitive. I got to bring that down because you're believing their characterization. And now you don't ever allow yourself to voice an emotion again because anytime I do, I'm being sensitive. There's something wrong with me. So people hold themselves back. If you must be paranoid, Are you sure you're not having memory problems, Maybe you need to go see the doctor. You're on your period, your perimenopausal. You pick a hormonal time in a woman's life and it's it's in the open season. Another thing, can't you take a joke? Oh, that was a huge, huge one for me, that just happened to me. So all of these things are meant to say you're not allowed to have an emotion. Your feelings are not valid, there is something wrong with you. Gas Sighters, at the core of it, are deeply insecure. No one's on a power trip unless they feel this big inside. They feel small, and so they make everyone else be as small as And they are not necessarily aware all the time that they're doing it, not at all. There's no awareness, and they won't go to therapy, so they're not showing up for help because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. Does a gaslighter know that they're gaslighting? Here's the problem with gaslighters. They're not in touch with their why they're uncomfortable when they're not in the dominant position, So they're going to use whatever tools are at their disposal to maintain that dominant position, including the gas lighting. I'm going to take you down. I'm going to bring you down, and once I test the waters and I realize you're not leaving, I got you right, Rebecca. If you had left that relationship from the jump, there would have been over. That's why my eminent advice to everyone who's how do I avoid this? Get out early, early, early, early. So how is a gaslighter created? In the vast majority of cases, gas lighters are narcissistic, that's but for some folks, the gaslighting is something they watched happen in their family. They were regularly gaslighted by a parent, so it almost felt like that was a fair way of communicating. But people learn it, especially if they saw the parents doing it with each other or step parents. Remember you're like, oh, we're arguing, so I'm gonna deny it because that's how it was always done in my house. I never said that. That's a good point. Okay, So Dr Rominey helped us put together some scenarios to show just how easily gaslighting can happen. You were supposed to pick me up from work today. Did you forget um, you didn't ask me to pick you up? Yeah, I did, remember. I waited for like an hour and you didn't pick up your phone. No, you're confused. I recall you telling me that you're catching a round home your co worker. No, I sent you a text this morning as a reminder. You're wrong. I never got a text. There's no texting hand look book it says it was delivered. There's no text. Okay, so that pushing away of evidence. See she had the text showing I had set you the text and no evidence. No, thank you. Great. So first I'm a bad boyfriend for not picking you up, and now you're accusing me of lying this. This is why we always argue you're crazy, all these little interactions like I'm sick and tired of your accusations and trust issues. Okay, I'm sorry, You're right. I am probably just being dramatic and I asked you to do too much. I am a great boyfriend, and I'm sick and tired of being treated like this. Do you want a drum queen? And we cannot continue like this? Do you understand? Oh? Do you see what she was doing. She was almost getting ahead of him. Yeah, I don't remember things. I don't want to be dramatic. What happens if you stay in a gas lighting relationship long enough you start doing their dirty work for that you've internalized their language. Over time, that becomes yourself talk, always anticipating being a failure correct, and also the I'm sorry when you come with a problem suddenly before you know what's happening. You all want apologizing over time in a relationship like that, someone like her, we'll stop speaking of because you can already anticipate the argument. Wow, so gas lighting can happen in all kinds of relationships. Watch this what we haven't I thought we could have passed the salad? Oh yeah, Oh my god, Jazz, you know those art director jobs we apply for forever ago? Really just emailed me. I got an interview. Good for you. I haven't heard anything. Are you ready for a job at this level? Wait? I thought you said when I applied I could be great at this I've been wanting this for a while now, and you don't think I'm ready. It's not that, it's just that normally this kind of job requires people to have a really clear vision. I think I'm ready. That's a gaslight, because you are ready your your reality is like, I've got the experience, I know what I'm doing. I've even been offered an interview. I feel confident that I could do this. You know what, forget I even said anything. Your work is great. You belong on a billboard in Times Square or the covered Vogue. You can't be a little supportive, and you can't take a little joke. Do you want me to be the kind of friend who only tells you what you want to hear. You're saying that you're ready for this, right, so you must be. I was really excited. I've been wanting this job for so long. Now I'm second guessing at I'm thinking about not even going to the interview. So, Dr Romaney, what happened there? Part of gas lighting is that they consistently doubt your capacity to do something. This job is too big for you, keeping you small, And a lot of people don't recognize that somebody undercutting your abilities and telling you you're not ready when you inherently feel you are, because most of us undervalue ourselves. But when someone's trying to hold you back, can't be happy for you and then at the very end you belong on a on a billboard entire square. So then they do this sort of shaming. It's a shaming and humiliating and you wouldn't expect that kind of behavior or response from somebody that supposed to love you. And that's why. Then what does the person do? They're like they must be right, instead of who the hell are you to tell me? I don't know what I'm doing. That's not what most people are going to say. They're say they're trying to protect me. In my instance, I would be leaving the house for auditions and as I left, badly looked up from whatever the paper and good luck. You probably won't get it, but do your best, you know, just be that's supapacity. Yeah every time, Yeah a long time. Yeah. Wow. This next scenario speaks on that if you have a hard time speaking up for what you deserve, watch this. Hi, Paul, how are you? Hey? Rachel? And I'm so excited to be here. So Paul, I have to say, I am so happy to hear that you are taking on the Simmons account. It's a brand new project and there's just a lot going into it, and we think you're the right person. Thanks Rachel. I'm really flattered that you all picked me. I really love working here and I'm definitely up for the task. But I did want to ask, with all this added responsibility, can I be compensated for the extra workload? Wow, Paul, I'm a little surprised that's your first question. I just thought that I might at least be able to renegotiate my radar get paid for overtime. As you mentioned, it is a lot of work. You're twisting my words. I thought this is what you love doing. So you're saying you don't like this job. It sounds like you're just not really happy here. Is this not working for you? Another thing that's gas lighting that people don't even know is something called goaling back when a person makes a very reasonable ask paying me more to do more work, and then you're met with we're doubting your commitment to the job. There's other people who will take the job. Maybe we're not interested in you anymore. Know that that that's not it. I'm happy here. There are a lot of other candidates that are willing to take on this job at their current salary. It just seems like you're not interested. So I guess I don't really need to talk to my boss about it. No, no, it's okay. I'll do whatever it takes at my same range. Okay, I really appreciate it. I know you can do it. Thank you, thank you. Break that down again, that piece of the gas lighting of pulling back. We don't need you anymore. He wants to keep his job. No no, no, no, no, no, okay, I'll pull back now. This gets even more problematic when it's people who already don't feel their power in the world. Whom are people of color, people of lower education or economic status. They already don't want to ask for a raison or maybe I'm lucky enough to have right, which is a self gas light. You know, they're lucky to have you if you're doing your job well. Once you make a need known that that need is shut down and you are viewed as sort of bad or asking too much, And if that happens enough, that voice gets stolen and they get what they want. Power, control, dominance, geez, okay. So joining the table is Favor Campbell. For years after her divorce, Favor was convinced she was insecure, jealous, and overly dramatic. She questioned herself with her sanity and says, your advice, dr Yes, help heal, Come on out here, favor favor. I like that name. How are you like tears? I'm so glad I made a difference. I'm gonna start by thinking you because it really truly did help me to understand and to know it wasn't me. When you're in it, you don't know right, You have no idea. I was married for sixteen years. It wasn't all the way bad. There was plenty of good moments, which makes you question the gaslighting. But the last few years of our marriage, every small argument was turning into a big argument, and we were just not meeting each other and like it was just off. So I asked the question that I felt like I never had to ask my husband. I asked him if somebody else had his attention. I didn't think he necessarily, you know, was sleeping with somebody, you know, But he confirmed that, and I asked him who it was. He stonewall me and would not tell me, and in fact turned it around on me and said, you know, if you find out who this is, you will blow this out of proportion. And it's one of those situations where you start to doubt yourself because you're wondering, am I wrong for asking? He said, you're ignoring all the other things on how we got here. Now you're just focused on that that situation. How do I not focus on it? He's like, if you blow it out of proportion, it could just be really bad. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like what is going on? My daughter and I were going out to dinner, and um, she's all, yeah, when I saw Dad with so and so at church, it was like all the pieces floated together. That makes sense that it's her. So this has been the person the whole time, This person who you worked with for like ten plus years, this person who babysat my daughter, this person who I've been to her house. When I found out that it was her, it was like I was wrong finding out that it was her right, you know, Like and I would think to myself, what are you mad at me for? I'm the one that's like blowing this out of proportion? You know, we're trying to make sense of like, Okay, am I overreacting? What? You know? Like all that's going through your head and you just cannot make sense of it, and to this day he's married to that person. But of course I was imagining and it wasn't that serious on all of those things. Right, First, he tried to make you feel like you didn't have a right to know that. That was the big way. He turned the tables. That's what that's what you was saying. Gaslighters, dude, and that's it. And then all this and you're you're going to blow this out of proportion is another gaslight movie, and you're overly dramatic again the gas like denying, yea even stonewalling. Stonewalling is a form of gas lighting, right, and then disproportionate reaction. There's something wrong with her. But even earlier on the gaslighting things came out our first date, right, he picks me up and there's two other girls in the car, So at first I was like, you know, that's our first date, and he said he was giving them a ride home. So I was like, one of the girls in the car, she likes you, but I'm not gonna make a big deal about it because I don't want to be that girlfriend, right I could you not? He kept constantly saying, no, no, no, she doesn't like me. No, she doesn't like me. We ran across her later and she ended up like having a crush on him. It took three almost four years of being married to where one day he was just like, yeah, she was being flirty with me, and for three or four years I'm thinking, like, I saw it, and you deny it. Why was you? And kind of laughed it off. Here's what's so interesting. I don't want to be that girlfriend. Yeah there was something happened that you were not comfortable with with that that other woman. When we say I don't want to be that person, I don't want to be a drama. I don't want to be high maintenance, that's all needy. We've already internalized this energy of my feelings. My needs have no place in the don't it's all about him? Yea, Yeah, that happened so often. One of the other components with him with the gas flighting was the facade. I mean he could put on for people, Oh absolutely, and then at home you're a completely different and then you go home with them and they go, that's not the real meat. You know, the real meat that means your ego, because you're like, this person wants to share their actual cells with me and that's intoxicating. But what it is actually happening is that showing you there are two different people, and before you know what's happening, you're like, I feel special because I'm allowed to see this person exactly how they are. With the doctor Romany say that you found helpful everything, every video, every you know' like a groupie like I would pull up her videos. I would go back and listen to certain things that I knew were very characteristic of him as I uncovered that he was narcissistic in the gas flighting and it just brought peace because it helped me to say, okay, favor, you're not crazy. And if you have even one person in your life that's your anti gas lighter who says I saw that you are not crazy, that is one of the most curative tools we could possibly have. Yeah, well, thank you, ladies. This was a powerful, powerful table. Dr Romney's podcast, Navigating Narcissism is available wherever you get your podcasts. This fan fantastic. I'd like this new donut glaze. Now, oh that's pretty right, it's donut glaze. I'm kind of it. I cut my nails. I get to that point where they get to a length and then I'm like, you'd be doing a lot more. To join the red table Talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us Facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast, produced by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.