Not sure how to set boundaries in your life? Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist who helps people create healthy relationships by teaching them how to implement boundaries. She speaks with Gam and her husband, Rodney, about boundary setting and how a lack of boundaries can impact relationships with others and oneself.
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What's up everybody. I'm Gammy and I'm her husband, Rodney, and this is positively gam How are you doing, Babe? Doing good? A little cold here though, Yeah, see you should be out here with me and our new addition to the family, Duchess. Duchess is giving me hell as all I can say for the listeners. Rodney and I have a new addition to our family. We got a puppy. I had a Chihuahua that we had that I had for fourteen years, and Busy passed in October, and I have been you know, I just I had to like take a minute from that because I really loved Bitsy a lot. I had them for fourteen years, and I just wasn't ready to get any anything new. And then we went on a rescue website and found Duchy and so yeah, we we found Duchy on the SPC A l A website and she is a Chihuahua Terrier mix. I can look at her and see that she's gonna be bigger than Busy was. Busy was our chihuahua. But she's definitely gonna be bigger than Busy was because Busy had those little, tiny legs, those tiny delicate legs and feet. He was only like five pounds and she's definitely chunkier than that. She's almost three months old. So yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to have her, but it is going to be challenging going back to that puppy stage of house breaking, crate training, all of that, you know, But I signed up for it. So I'm just really glad that we could find a dog that needed a home and give him one, as opposed to just getting something that everybody else wants, as opposed to taking finding something that nobody wanted and loving it. Right. Okay, so moving on, I'm so excited today we have Nedra Glover to walk her book, set boundaries and find peace. For those of you who are Red Table Talk fans, she joined us on Red Table Talk, so I am so excited to have her back on to delve a little bit deeper into boundaries setting because when I read the book for a second time, I really really there were some points that really struck me personally. So I'm excited to talk to her. How do you feel about having Nedra on? This would be your first experience. I'm excited to meet her and to hear all of her to hear her expertise on boundaries. I think that's really important in everyone's life, and you know, setting them as well as adhering to them. So I'm looking forward to it. Okay, so let's get started. Here's our interview with Nedra. We're so excited to have you, Nedra. We have Nedra Glover to wob as our guest. Ndra is a licensed therapist, sought after relationship expert, and author of Set Boundaries Fine Piece. Every day she helps people create healthy relationships by teaching them how to implement boundaries and I bet we all could use some help with that. How are you today, Nedra? I am well, how are you all? I am so excited to have you back. I know this is the first time Rodney has experienced you, but you were and the audience may not know that you were a guest on Red Table, and let me tell you that experience, it just wasn't enough for me, and I was like, I've got to have her on positively, gam reading your book is like it's like a therapy session, truly, it's it's so much helpful information in there and for me personally, So I want to ask you what drew you to therapy as a career path. I feel like I have been an easy person to talk to always, like in childhood as a teenager, I love listening to people. I've always been a student of personal development and self help, so I really naturally like to listen to people and professionally. I didn't grow up knowing any therapists. I knew about psychiatrists. I knew about a lot of other things. But when I started college and I discovered therapy, I was like, that's it. After my first client, that first session, I was like, Oh, this is it, Like this is what Yeah, this is what I like to do. Anyway. I used to get in trouble in school for you know, starting conversations, to listen and you know all that stuff. So this is very natural for me. So what made you interest in boundaries specifically as an area to like explore and expound on and study Again, I think this is something I started early. It is not what's taught to therapists. Were not taught about the importance of boundaries assertiveness. But boundaries can really break a lot of generational patterns that I saw in families. I used to be a therapist with children and foster care and their parents and so many of those stories. I was just like, well, why didn't you tell the uncle he could live here? Or why was this? You know, I just had so many questions because there was such a huge lack of boundaries that I thought, you know, I wonder if we have more information around the ability to say no to our family, ability to say no to family, friends, and all of this sort of stuff, what we be better off. But I don't think that's the thing that's taught, because we are often taught that saying no is mean, it's inappropriate, is not what we should do. That's your cousin, this is your that, And sometimes those things create bigger problems. Like I said, I was working in foster care, so some of those lack of boundaries were creating huge issue in the family. Yeah, boundaries with family and friends can be the most difficult. But I want to ask you, Rodney, how do you feel about boundaries you set in work and in your personal life. Do you think it's easier for you to set boundaries and work. I think it is easier for me to set boundaries and work. I think it's typically easy for me. Anyway. I'm sort of a private person, so I think the boundaries work in reverse. For me. I kind of don't let people in, so I may suffer in relationships as a result of that. But I'm very private. But at work, you know, I own a company. I actually we're kind of in the same area. I own a mental health agency, so we have therapists and all of those things on staff. And you know, I find that people want their needs met, whether it's clients, staff, whomever. So they'll typically if they get the wrong answer from one of their direct reports, they'll circumvent that process and try to come to me to get what it is they want. And I just think that's human nature. Most people just want, you know, to get their needs met natur. Do you think that there are certain personality types that find it more difficult to set boundaries personality types? Absolutely. I have been asked if there are certain boundary differences between men and women, and Rotten it was speaking. I was like, I hear men being more assertive, and we know that for women it could be really challenging to set boundaries in the workspace. In families, you know you'd be labeled the me auntie. You you know, you'd be labeled the mean lady at work, you know, all of this sort of stuff, and that really gets to women in a way that it just doesn't get to be and I can't even think of like parenting. You know, women feel some sort of way about denying their child to extra piece of candy. You know. The dad is just like, no, that's it, and you're like, oh, but it's just a kid cat, you know, it's just something about us. And I just be wanting to take it out and throw it away sometime, like just take this bleeding heart out, just I don't want it. So when I went over the book again, something's really stuck out to me for me personally, and I don't think that before I've read the book that I ever thought about setting boundaries on how you respond and react two things is a choice. I never thought about that in that way. And let me give you an example. This is something that Rodney and I have been dealing with in our relationship and some boundaries that he has set with me. Because when I get angry, the way I respond is to holler and cuss. So I'm going to scream at you, holler at you, and I'm probably gonna cuss you out. Rodney doesn't tolerate that, but that's when I'm used to doing. And I never realized that until I listened to your book. That is a choice that I've made to respond that way, and that I can make a choice to respond differently. And it's been a struggle for me because Rodney does not tolerate that, and so I had to find another way. But in me trying to find another way, I told him, you remember, Rodney, I said, well, you're preventing me from expressing my anger. So I feel like that's gonna be detrimental to me because now I'm gonna be have all this anger inside of me that I can't get out because you don't want me to yell at you. But that's but I'm releasing that emotion, right, That's yeah, but exactly exactly. And I had to really when I read the book, I had to really think about it because I'm like, well, I don't throw things, I don't hit him, so I'm making a choice to holler. I'm making a choice not to hit them, or not to hit anybody that I'm angry with, you know what I mean. And I never thought about it that way. Can you recommend ways for people to find ways to set boundaries on how they react and respond to things. How do you train yourself? I guess it's my question. I wonder sometimes when we respond with anger, with yelling, with hitting, with punching holes in the wall and those sort of things, how is that different from kicking our shoes off in a restaurant if we get upset? How is that different from you know, road rage? How is that different from all these things that we're actually controlling ourselves? You know, these scenarios were controlling our behavior. So why in this situation am I now making the choice with this safe person that I love to really let it out on them. If I can control myself in a restaurant, in the car when I'm talking to you know, my friend, I can control myself with this person too, And a lot of those tools are going to be the same. There's something you're telling yourself in those moments. There's another behavior you're tapping into other than cousin and screaming. So whatever you're doing in those scenarios, you can apply it here. But I think you can get your anger out by speaking about it using different words, because it's not just anger it's frustration, is feeling hurt, it's sadness. It's a lot of stuff in there. And if we say just anger, I think of anger as this emotion that's a safe and easy go to and it seems so hard core to be angry. I mean, it's just like I'm angry, and it's like, yes, but don't you want to cry to No, You're so right, so right, because that's what I'll be trying to explain to him that I'm frustrated. I have so many emotion is going on right now. I know you want to say something, Rodney. I think it's I think it's learned behavior too. I think that that is how you let me finish. I think that is how you responded in previous relationships, so when you heard similar or when you were confronted with certain conversation a lot of times. I think it was a defense mechanism as well as just this is how I respond in this situation typically, and didn't really give a lot of thought to it. It's just you say this. I say that I don't, you know, I don't feel like you and I would always have to remind you, hey, we're just having conversations like we're not arguing. I don't, I'm not. This is not anything to argue about. We're just having conversation, and why are you getting so elevated? And then you would kind of like, okay, yeah, you're right, or we would not be able to have the conversation because I wouldn't talk to you when you were like that. And then an hour or two later you'd come back and you say, you know, I thought about it, and we were able to have that conversation, you know, like like human beings, right, But what was it about you or what were you feeling? I mean, why was that a boundary? Because your boundary was You're not gonna talk to me that way because I feel like I require and deserve a level of respect and I'm not gonna treat you in that way. And but nor am I going to allow you or anyone else to kind of you know, talk to me and to mean me and that way and that way either. And I felt like most of the time, nine of the time, we weren't talking about anything that required a response of anger and frustration. It was I disagree with that. I disagree with that a lot of time. And I feel like that there's a little bit of gas lighting in there. You're deciding for me what's important, and what I said I wasn't Huh. I didn't say it wasn't important. I said it didn't require that level of elevation. So what I hear is you are respond in different ways, right for you, Rodney, It seems like there are certain situations that require this, and there are certain situations that could be here. And I wonder, you know, because we express feelings in different ways. My situations that you may think are here could be here, right, Like all we all feel different things at different times. But if there's a situation where you are yelling and screaming, how else can that be expressed? Y'alling is screaming to me in the case, I want to be heard. I want to be heard. Listen to me. What I'm saying is important. Please don't dismiss me. I will say it louder, I will scream, I will cuss, I would do everything for you to hear me, right, I agree? Yeah, And I do think that you know, in my previous relationships and growing up looking back over over, because I'm the youngest and I do have a history of just feeling like I was never heard that my opinions weren't respected or people didn't really feel like I had anything to say. Mm hmm. So that could explain why I react the way I do. And you are right, Rodney, I would that is a behavior I was used to. But when you first said it that it was learned, I thought you meant that I had learned that I saw that in like maybe my parents or something like that, and that wasn't true because they didn't argue at all. So yeah, okay, so that makes sense to me, Nedra that yeah, that I'm feeling like I'm not being heard, and so I get very elevated. I wonder if the boundary for you, Gammy is I need to feel heard. So when we're talking, this is what I need from you, And what are those things like, you know, I contact you to put a hand on my leg YouTube, give vocal indication that you understand, like I understand you, I hear you, like, what are those things so that I'm not you know, going back to this behavior yelling, because I see that you are listening to me, that you are valuing what I'm saying in these moments. I don't even think it was that with Rodney, I think I just automatically went there. There's a lot of different emotions happening at the same time, So there's frustration, there's anger, there's hurt, there's all of those emotions, and so I immediately go into that high level of response. And I'm just retraining myself now because I see that where it was acceptable with other people, it is not acceptable with him. And he's actually correct that we hear each other better if we're talking and if I'm not screaming and if I'm calm, then I can hear him and he can hear me. So but it still doesn't happen. I mean, it was almost like a guarantee it at one point when we first got together, and it doesn't happen that often anymore. So No, I'm doing so much better natural. What is your advice for setting boundaries with getting other family members involved in relationships? Like you know, I don't necessarily, we don't necessarily think it's a good idea. When you may have I would say, other family and friends into personal relationship issues, and then everybody's got to put their two cents into it. I don't think that's such a good idea. I think it's a terrible idea because what happens is we are still very mad at Rodney. Meanwhile, you and Ronnie holding hands, y'all going on vacation, and I'm still thinking about two years ago when Ronnie came over here and you were so mad you left the house. I can't get over it like you, because I'm not having all of these positive experiences with your partner. And so if you really want me to be fair and balanced in your relationships, there are some things that I don't need to know about your relationship because that is your information. Perhaps to work out for sure with your partner, maybe with the therapist, maybe there is some other person in your life. But with your close friends and family that could be tough because they don't let things go like you do. Yeah, yeah, What advice do you share with your clients when they come to you and say they don't have good boundaries in general with their family or close friends. I give you an example about I have a friend, Well, I've had I've had this a couple of times in my life where friends have come to borrow money, right, and you know I would do it a couple of times, and I already understand that typically if I'm lending money, I already have in my mind that I'm not gonna get it back. So I'm not going to lend you anything that if I can't afford to do it. But still, I felt like this person was constantly coming borrowing money, and I just it's just not a good idea. I didn't want the friendship to be based on that. I didn't feel like, I'm not the bank. I'm not. I don't want anyone to rely on me for that. You know, I'm not the fixer, And so setting a boundary with that was it was difficult for me because they were friends, and I kind of ended up putting it on Rodney. Why know back my husband's boundary and I want mine back. You need all your But so how do you how do you deal with those situations? I think you mentioned bank, and I think about a bank. When you want to borrow money from the bank, they have a loan application, correct, Yes, what's on your loan application? Like I just wonder, like what is your criteria for loaning money? And that's what I talked to, Like when they getting these situations of loaning money, what is your criteria? You are only helping these situations, you will only go up to this mount. It has to be paid bye Bay. This time. The person has to actually have a relationship with you where they check on you, you check on them like it is some healthy back and forth. Half in in here is this a crisis? Like? What is your criteria for loaning people money? Most of us go into it with no criteria. We just trust in the person. You know, here's two hundred dollars. Just give it back to me when you can. I don't know a bill collector on this earth that puts when you can on a bill that's not stated they wanted by the fifteenth if after the fifteenth is twenty dollars extra. What is your criteria? If you're going to loan the money, you have to go into it with This is my expectation, and sometimes it's you know, I understand this is a tough situation, particularly when we're helping people through a crisis. I'm not loaning this money. I'm giving you a gift. You know, you can say that to people so they're not dodging you or you know, all of these interesting things people do when they owe your money. But if you want to loan, go into it with these are my boundaries, and this is my expectation. Got it? Got it? Yeah? I never did that. I never felt like I have to say that. I never felt like the ask was frivolous. There was always a need, but I did not have any I never even asked to be paid back. I never even asked for that because I just feel like if people are asking for it, they probably just don't have it anyway. So I never even asked for the money back. I just typically don't do that. And now I just don't loan money anymore. I just got to that point where I just I don't do it. Let's talk just a little bit about why it is difficult. What is it that makes it so difficult to set boundaries with close friends and family in particular? I find that so difficult. We care about the relationship, and we care with the person things and with family. The relationships are so intertwined. If you upset this one person, it upsets five people. If you say no to this one person, they're gonna call it a mama. Then their mama gonna be calling your mama, and then the aunt as yadoh, And I mean, the stuff is just so connected where it's just like, yeah, you could come stay over here because you rather not even here the whole thing about it. But you need to be in the pon the person, and the most of us need to be the person in the family, because there is one of most families where you know, you know, no, not uncle or not at like they are very clear, no we I don't cook for Thanksgiving. You know, it's like, no, you cannot come over here with your dog, like they are very clear about these things. How do you become hopefully one of many people who can speak those things and not necessarily just not care because we do care, but also speak those things care and continue to speak them because there are some things that you don't like. There are some preferences that you do have, and it should certainly be okay to have those preferences in the relationships with the people that we are closest to, to the relationships that we really value. I don't want to be known well by a bunch of strangers. I want the people who live in my home, the people who you know I talked to most often, to understand who I am. So when you set boundaries with people, is it a matter of when you're setting the boundaries that you're explaining the why is that? Is that helpful? Is that necessary? That can be challenging, particularly in families, because they can talk you right out of that. Why. They know a lot of stuff about you and your history and who you dated before Ronnie and how they helped you one time with your graduation dress. I mean just all this stuff. So if you start getting into stuff, people will pull their stuff out too. And so is it useful to give an explanation, because sometimes that explanation can really put our boundary apart. If you say I don't want to come to your party because my car is in the shop, they say, we'll call it uber man, Not I call it uber. You just didn't want to go to the party like that was the response, And so creating all these other things will then again put you in a situation that you didn't want to be in. So then is it more about just knowing what you want and what your limits are and just standing strong in that and being it plain and simple. It's just it's adult behavior in families. What typically happens. I am the youngest child, and I am the youngest cousin of all my first cousins, and so I get a lot of old little Madra, you know, just yeah, and you and and them them seeing me as an adult, they you know, they kind of clear the path because I'm making these statements of like no, I don't want It's like, okay, she has a voice. But people will remind you of your role in the family. We know that the baby is supposed to like listen to all these big people. We know that the oldest is supposed to tell everybody what to do. So those roles around we are now like making waves. And so it is okay to do that because whether you are the forty year old baby or you know, the fifty year old baby, you're still an adult. You're a baby adult. So I'm not a baby twelve year old. Now I'm an adult and I have some understanding of what I want from my life. I am the oldest, but I am an adult. I am the middle, I'm an adult. I'm a cousin, but I'm somebody mama. You know, you have to really assert your yourself in a family system. Yeah, Rannie, did you I see you shaking your head? Did you want to add something to any of that? Yeah? I was just thinking that you know, a lot of times it's you don't have boundaries, or let me speak for myself, in certain situations, I don't have boundaries because I'm I'm concerned about what other people think, and it's it's more so putting myself first and foremost, and you know, not that I'm not concerned the most important person in the room. Got it? So that makes it easier for you when you think about it in those terms you mean, got it? Does that make sense? Ndra? Absolutely, And that's the energy that most people have when they are setting boundaries with you. They are the most important person in the world, and we have to think about not only how this impacts other people, but how does this impact me? Okay, So the last boundary that I really want to get into because once again and reading the book, it really brought up some personal emotions and some understanding about myself, and that is boundaries that you set for yourself, right, and it involves people pleasing and self betrayal and self sabotage. And I think when I read it, I didn't even realize my own behavior right, my own negative talk and the thoughts that go on in my head that contribute to my low self esteem issues, right, and like making disparaging comments about myself to myself and to others. Like I just didn't even realize until that's what I said. Reading your book was like a therapy session. So give me an example of you doing that, say like saying something. I do it all the time. I'm constantly telling myself, oh you, I can't do that. I can't do that. I listen something as simple as I took and I just rewatched the tape of the day. I'm I'm a stepper, right, a Chicago stepper. I love dance, and I recently took a private dance lesson with an instructive who who's dance I really admire. And he was talking to me and showing me some steps that I could incorporate into my dance that would change my dance. And I was like, oh, well, I don't I think I could only do it now because you were counting it out for me. If you weren't counting, I wouldn't have been able to do that. And he was like, what are you saying? You just did it? How about let me show you that I can do it without you counting. I automatically went into I can't do that, and I'm constantly telling myself that I'm not a good dancer. I can't do this, I can't do that. Oh, they don't want to hear me, they don't want to see me. It was very difficult for me even to like just to transition into red tape, but was very challenging. I mean it still is. I just have this negative talk in my head that I don't think that people really want to hear what I have to say. I don't know what I'm talking about, Like, oh, just god, all this negative talk. When I hear those knts, I think about all the things that you've already achieved and accomplished. I don't know if you remember this about yourself, but perhaps you remember it about Jada or Willow or Jaden. How we can't do a lot of stuff. We can't walk, we can't talk, we can't hold our heads up, we can't Oh my gosh. We are born with kents, and every time we master it, it's a victory. Little kids are often I mean, you you ever see a baby find their hand, how wonder it is. It's just like just buttoning their shirt. It's like, oh my gosh, I just come here, come look, I just but my I think about all of the things that we haven't been able to do at, all of the things that we master, Like that just makes that just warms my heart to think about how wonderful we are and how we do have the ability always to learn something new, to apply something different. We're already accomplished. You've already done a lot. If you could curl your own hair, you're a master, because there's a lot of people who can't. So there are so many things that we can do, and that can't is not necessary and it's not useful. Yeah, And that that I can't narrative that I constantly have in my head is very discouraging and it's really tiresome. I'm getting tired of my damn self. But you can because you you're constantly learning stuff. You're doing real table, you're on a podcast. So it's like you're saying can't, but I see your behavior doing something else. Yeah, So I guess I have to learn how to be more gentle and kind to myself. Yeah, that's who you need to cuss out that voice in your head. You need to cuss out that can't voice in your hand. As we start wrapping up of this, a couple of things that I want to bring up. You said in your book too, was that boundary setting is never about other people. It is about yourself. And I think that's important, that's really important to understand. So if I'm setting a boundary, it's about me, it's not about you. If I'm setting a boundary with you, it doesn't have anything to do with you. It has to do with me. Because I had a situation where I was setting some boundaries for myself with other people, right, other people in my life, but it didn't have anything to do necessarily with the other people. It had to do with me, right, And that was really hard for other people to understand. But your boundaries are really for you, for and about you. I think about the example you just use in terms of like drinking. Right, So if you say to your group of friends, hey, I'm not drinking socially anymore. I'm I'm gonna cut back. I don't want to drink now, some people they will personalize at oh, and nothing wrong with that. Is absolutely a boundary that's for you. You're not in that space trying to say, you know, you can't do what you can't do what you can't do it. But for me and for what I want for my life, I am choosing not to do this. It is not an indictment on what you choose to do in your life. Thank you so much, Nadra for joining running. And you have a bunch of resources on your website, including this fantastic book, Set Boundaries. Fine piece. I'm telling you, Set Boundaries, find Peace. Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of this book or listen to get it on audio. I'm telling you it is a I'm telling you it is life changing. Tell people where they can find you on social media to learn more about you and boundary setting, Nadra. I am on most social media platforms, but in particular Instagram at natural Wop. Thank you so much, Nadra, Thank you so much. You're welcome. Always a pleasure. That was a really great conversation with Nadra. Wasn't a babe, It absolutely was. Yeah. I mean, I'm telling you to the listeners, this book is life changing and I would seriously, seriously encourage you to get it. But moving on, we have some fan questions to answer, Babe. The fans want to know who is your favorite sports team? So I'm a big basketball fan, but I don't really have a team. I just love the game football. It'll have to be because I'm from Baltimore. It's the Ravens, but I also like the Los Angeles Rams. Yeah, since you're yeah, since we're back and I'm half and half, Yeah, you're half and half were my coastal so well, I and I actually don't have a favorite I don't have a favorite team, but my favorite sport is basketball. That is my favorite sport. Okay. And then the second question is what is your favorite your favorite trait about your partner. M hmm, good luck on that. I'd have to say that you're my best friend, that that friend trait that you have. H being a friend is not a trait. Okay, but anyway, but anyway, because my answer is not really a trade either. It's the favorite. It's what I like about you. Yeah, yeah, my favorite thing about So we're gonna change the change the question a little. Yeah. So I think the thing that I like about you the best when it comes to me is that you and I've said this before, I love that you accept me as I am right. And that doesn't mean that there's no room for growth in me and there's not things that I need to change, but at the at the core, you love me for who I am, and that is extremely extremely important to me because that has not been my experience in the past, at least that's not what I felt in the past from other partners. So I thoroughly appreciate that from you. And then there is a trait, there is a trade in you that that I like to and that is I do like your your calm, your typically typically you are a person until I start driving. Yeah, Now that that's a whole different thing because you too, you're off the tab when it goes to drive. You think you're on a race way all the time and you're not. Yeah. But so those are the things that I like about you the best. And join this episode of Positively Gam. Then subscribe to the Positively gam series to catch up on all of season two. And that's our show for this week, that is positively Gam. You can follow me online at Gammy Norris and you can follow me at I Am Rodney Norris. Help us out by leaving a five star review on I Heart Radio app or Apple podcast, and by hitting the follow button on Spotify. You can submit your questions to positively gam at red table talk dot com for a chance to hear me answer them on a future episode. Stay grateful, y'all, and thanks for listening. Talk to you later, babe. Positively gam is produced by red Table Talk Podcast and I Heart Radio. Executive producers are Adrian Banfield, Naris Balin, Jethro and Jada Pinkett Smith. Our audio engineer is Calvin Bayleet, and our associate producer is Irene Bischoffsberger. Our theme song is produced by d Beats