Tracy T. Rowe and Cara Pressley are recapping the bombshell Red Table Talk Jennette McCurdy interview. Joy Havens joins the virtual red table to break down what it’s like to live in an environment like Jennette experienced. Joy also experienced abuse by her mother and father and developed an eating disorder because of her abuse. Plus, licensed marriage and family therapist Kati Morton joins the table to share tips on how to navigate tricky parent-child relationships.
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LET’S RED TABLE THAT is produced by Red Table Talk Podcasts. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS Jada Pinkett Smith, Fallon Jethroe and Ellen Rakieten. PRODUCER Kyla Carneiro. ASSOCIATE PRODUCER Yolanda Chow. EDITORS AND AUDIO MIXERS Calvin Bailiff and Devin Donaghy. MUSIC from Epidemic Sound. LET’S RED TABLE THAT is in partnership with iHeartRadio.
In this episode, we'll be discussing eating disorders and child abuse, which may be triggering if you or someone you know is dealing with an eating disorder. Call or text the National Eating Disorders Association at eight hundred nine three one two to three seven for mental health resources. Visit NAMI in a m I dot org. Hey y'all, Hey, what's up? And welcome the Let's Red Table that. I'm Tracy t. Brow and I'm Carl Pressley. Red Table Talk is back, but we Let's Red Table that another left But now we'll be recapping Red Table Talk episodes as soon as they come out. Right, Yes, the Red Table Talk return is starting out. We're talking about abuse and how things you become normalized even though they are completely left of center, and parental abuse is absolutely left the center. We talk about dad's people joke about the dad's being absent, but no one talks about the mom is being abusive. Oh and that's a true statement, very very true statement. And this episode, as usual, Red Table talkings out here, shaking tables and in these streets and bringing up the concepts that no one wants to talk about. And this Net mccurty episode, there's no different since it is on the front of the cover holding the ashes urn right saying through me, I didn't know what I got, wondering it's sold out? Do you know why? I think it's sold out too? When people say things that no one else is saying. Clearly, she's not the only one going through this, and that's exactly why we're here today. There were so many pieces and parts of it, and she went through so much with her mom for so long, the apartment. When she moved into her own apartment, it was the never left for me. It was so many things in this episode. It was the eating let us with no salad addressing, It was the way five times today. It was the seven year affair that they slid that in there. Did they not just ease that right on anywhere? You're not going to just slide past that, just get up, but they did. They just eased on it. And then she was acting out as this character on our car League and she was living a lie. It's time to hear from our community. We want to hear from you, our fantastic listeners. We are now sharing these questions in several online red table talk communities. So if you want to answer our weekly question. Follow Cara or me on social media or join Red Table Talk Facebook group. Don't you love that car? Because we had a I mean, we're everywhere, We're here, everywhere, We're everywhere. This week, we asked y'all if you experienced abuse or maltreatment by your parents growing up, how have these experiences affected your adulthood? Cara, let's hear from these wonderful people in our community what they say. Let's kick it off. Anthony Vincent said, it's impacting my relationships, my worth. It fueled my insecurities and so much more so. Unfortunate, Anthony Vincent. We are just sending you love in life because that that is hard. How can it not affect everything? Facts? Absolutely? Tristan Scott said, to treat people better than you were treated, so don't repeat the cycle. Break it. That's good, That's very good. Katie Washington said, I think it's informed a lot of my work and mental health around boundaries and worth. No one has the right to abuse you. We can honor all people by respecting their boundaries. I like that, Katie Washington, thank you for sharing that. Our community is our backbone. We rely on you to get involved. So we got all these different ways for you to get in touch with us now, so we're moving forward to hearing from you. Yes, we're going to take a quick break, but when we get back, we'll be joined by an incredible guest from our Red Table Talk community. We usually invite two guests unless Red Table that, but this week we wanted to give our one amazing guests as much space as possible to share about her journey with us because the topic of prints of abuse and its long term effects is a big one. So we are grateful that Joy is here with us today to walk us through what it is like growing up in an environment like Jeanette McCourty experienced. How are you today, Joy, I'm good. Thank you so much for being here. Joy, Joy Haven's is a psychology student in Georgia, where she lives with her husband. Joy relates to a lot of what Jeanette shared at the Red Table. Her parents were emotionally abusive and her dad made her feel shame about eating, leading Joy to develop an eating disorder. Joy is working to heal and understand how her experiences impact her today, and we're just grateful to hear and share your story. Oh thank you, I'm grateful to be here. I'm so excited to be here and talking to you guys. Oh that makes me happy. That makes me happy, especially since what we're talking about isn't necessarily the happiest topic. But I'm grateful that you're here with us because I think it's going to be a gift for so many people. This is the part of the show where we reveal which Red Table Talk moments made us pause, rewind and listen again. This wait, what moment or moments was? It was just, oh, what what was that? What was that? And what was that? Because I don't think we could all believe what we were hearing. And I loved that Carly as the parent who had the child who loved the show as well. I watched it right along with everybody else, so it was eye opening from me. So let's just kind of jump into it, right. Jeanette reading the excerpt from her book about her mother showering her and her brother together when they were eleven and sixteen years old. Mom showers made with Scotty sometimes he's almost sixteen at this point. I get really embarrassed when she showers us together. I can tell he does too. Usually just look away from each other, and Scott distracts himself by drunk pokemon the fogged glass. He does a pretty good chars arc. When she showers us together, Mom says it's because she's got too much to do. Scott asked me he could shower himself once. Mom sobbed and said that she didn't want to grow up, so he never asked again after that. That was a total waite. What for me? I was like, the brother is sixteen? Like thoughts, Yeah, who right, We're all just at a lost for words. Yeah. I think this episode as a parents the first time I really thought about parents really manipulating their children. I just couldn't fathom someone going there. I remember my son being sixteen, right, yeah, and it wasn't I didn't want time you want to spend with them in the bathroom, I don't want anywhere near him. Sometimes just because it's teenage, they're all trying to figure their own sol those hormones, right, right, So it's interesting that she was trying to guide that teenage journey for them. Really, she didn't want them to grow up, right, So there was no But it does lead into this next moment. Deb's emailed to Jeanette. When Jeanette ran off with her boyfriend to called Jeanette name just owner, but still managed to find the audacity to ask for some money for a fridgerator. What happened to my good little girl? Where did she go? And who is this monster that has replaced her? You're an ugly monster. Now. I told your brothers about you, and they all said they disown you, just like I do. We want nothing to do with you. Love mom, or should I say deb since I'm no longer mother? PS send money for a new fridge? Arts broke, pure unmitigated goal is what I call that? That? It's it's like you what, I'm what? And what? And what? And oh, by the way, send money. The fridge is broke, right? Can you imagine having the burden of being your households breadwinner as a child, especially while being treated this way? Dooy? How did you feel about that? As you want the episode, I was taken it back what I had to like rewind to make sure that she said that, and I was like, oh my gosh, that's right. I can't believe that people even think of things like that. I kind of want to know if she sent the money for the fridge. Why did you knowing Janette, she probably done just to kind of be done with it and here you go, and that's all you care about any way, and then she's just been programmed, right, you know. I would have definitely sent the money, probably because I'm just it's my mom, you know, at the end of the day, it was still her mom, and she wouldn't want her mom to be without a fridge. I'm sure she sent the money. It's interesting because they didn't ask that because everybody was so like completely shocked at all the stuff that she was saying before that. It's like, how can you say this about your daughter? Her mom had a lot to say. The quote from Jeanette's mom, My mom was always saying men will never really know you and they'll hurt you, but women will know you deeply and then they'll hurt you. You tell me which is worse? What? So who am I supposed to trust exactly? What are you leaving me here with? That's it's all you gets. My mom has actually said something similar like that to me before, and it was when I was leaving for college. Wasn't in the same way as Jeanette's mom said it, but she was basically saying, you can't trust anyone, and so I was like, well, then who do I trust? I'm confused. At that point, she was like, you should just stay home and go to community college and just live with me. I'm like, no, no, I have to go. And even when I was at college, she was trying to do the same thing, trying to get me to come back home and what are you doing? Like why are you out so late? And it's it'd be eleven thirty and I'd be in my friend storm and she'd be like, you need to go back to your room. I'm like, I'm literally in kenne Staw, Georgia. You were in Albany, Georgia. We are four hours apart. You can't tell me what to do. But even they're still trying to control. Yeah, And with that, she was basically saying, you just can't trust anyone. At this point, I'm about to figure that out for myself. You can't trust anyone, but come home because you can trust me? Like what, No, I can barely even trust you. Was it a trigger for you joy to see this? Oh? In so many ways, I was trying my best to keep it together, like I was trying to not start crying because Jeanette was talking about like the emotional abuse and the eating disorders, and I'm not gonna lie. I'm still dealing with that as a twenty seven year old adult, and it just hearing another adult talk about it so freely. I'm like, holy crap, the stuff is real and it was very triggering. That episode really did do something to me in a good way. It just made me self aware of my mental health and what I need to work on and what I need to be more expressive about and express my feelings. More so, hearing Jeanette talking about like finally getting into that element of herself and like, oh, I can do that too. That's cool. So she was a beacon for you, yes, yeah, definitely. And me growing up and watching her, I'm not even kidding. Me and my little brother and my mom would watch that show, like we loved that show, and it's just it's just crazy listening to her tell her story and all that going on behind the scenes. It sucks that like they take advance image of the Childhood stars in that way, and it's just it's it's disgusting, and I relate to her with her character being obsessed with food, and she was already going through the meeting disorder. I went through that like I pretended like I love food. I do relate to what she was saying. Her life was kind of mocking her in a way. That was my whole life. When Kelly shared about her betrayal blindness, betrayal blindness is forgetting or simply not knowing you're being hurt in an intimate relationship. This plays into the difficulty people have accepting that their mother abused them. Kelly said, as a culture, we don't like to think that mothers can be abusive. Really, it's called betrayal blindness. One of the things I love about Kelly McDaniels is having had the opportunity to see the episode where it was the maternal deprivation taps so much and it's so aligned with this episode two. We are taught not to talk about our mothers. Yeah, even if it's the stone cold truth about it, you can say my mom literally did the best she could, but it wasn't great. It wasn't what I needed. It was the absolute opposite. My mom did the antithesis of what I needed as a child. But if you say that, it's like, oh, you know right right, just the acknowledgment and your mother right right versus because she had done better for me. It was from both parents. My parents were I was there accident, they never got married, their good accident. They love them, they loved me. But that's another thing I need to stop doing, is having a disclosure after everything I say, but you know what, I'm I'm gonna help you right there, because yeah, I did the same thing. I don't know why I do it, I just do it. It's just it's a validation for yourself. So for my mom's and my dad's side, it was definitely the emotional abuse. And then most of the issues of me growing up was mainly my mom having issues with my dad, and it was like I knew everything that was going on, but there wasn't anything I could do about it, and my mom would subconsciously take it out on me, and my dad would do the same exact thing, and it would just be constant, you can't do anything right, like you're so stupid. From both parents, it was just like because of their issues, they took it out on me and I didn't realize until now like what was going on. And then on top of that with them not really even knowing how to handle my emotions and my anxiety and my depression issues. And technically I was an only child for sixteen years and I have a brother, but I only saw him once a year, and so all that energy was just put all on me of if anything went wrong, it was like my fault in a way, and it wasn't my fault. But as child, I'm thinking, oh, maybe I need to do this, Maybe I need to, I don't know, talk to my mom or ask her what's wrong. But every time I would go ask her what's wrong, she would just snap at me and be like, leave me alone, go to your room. I'm just you know, you're my mom. I want to be there for you. But looking back now, she was just a young parent and she didn't know like much of what she was doing, not in a bad way, but I'm gonna I'm gonna just say it might be a bad way, it's okay. I feel like, yeah, and it's all right if it's not even bad though, it's just she did the best, yeah, what she had. Yeah, Because I watched how she grew up with my grandma, and it's funny how Jeanette was talking about her grandma. If there was any any sort of emotion, she'd then meet it with like ten times that emotions. So if my mom's crying, she was like chaos on chaos on chaos. It was so much noise in our house. I was like, wait, my grandma was not very nice to my aunts and uncles or my mom. And then the same thing with my his dad was abusive, and so it just the patterns and now I'm like, okay, so now it's my job to stop it. But now I'm like trying to figure that out of like how to start. So that's just it's a lot that is good. It kind of reminds me of remembering the Mother Hungry episode when they defined the spoiling of being set on the shelf and that's really when you spoil. And that kind of reminded when you said she told you to go to your room, that's when your thoughts were spoiled because you started to be like, was it me that I actually do because you were left alone instead of, like Tracy just said, receiving that love that you truly deserved. I told you that if I don't feel well or if I'm having anxiety, I deal with it by myself because that's just what I've been trained to do since I was a kid. And my friends were like, I don't understand, Like why can't I help you now? Please? Like I can't. So it's just it's crazy how childhood can really affect you up until you're on a du until forever, until for average like it's a true like unlearning any fast. Just when you know that that wasn't your best and you want to be your best and you know it's not to other environmental conditions, it can be changed. Your mindset can be changed one day. I'm learning that now. In her book, one of the ways that Jeanette described the atmosphere in her home growing up was saying that the air felt like held breath. That painted a really clear picture for me. I can just feel that tension, right you think about you holding your breath and walking around joy. How was it like in your childhood home? Oh, my gosh. Basically that from both houses actually my God's house and my mom's house was my mom It was more so like if there was tension, it would be died down within a few days. And there was tension because of financial stuff or just her having a bad day and not really knowing how to channel that energy into something else. It would be taken out on me in a way. Or if I would come home and I want to just talk to her after school, she would just go straight to her room and be by herself, and if I wanted to talk to her, she would kick me out and be like no. And so it just most of my childhood during the school year, I was mostly just by myself in my room, doing my homework or watching movies and re enacting all the scenes and playing by myself. I would literally pretend like my dogs were there with me, playing with me, and I would play Cinderella with them. Even up until like high school, it was always like that. And and with my dad, I was terrified of really even talking because I felt like sometimes even to this day, I'm twenty seven and I'll say certain things and he'll just pop off, and I'm just like, I don't I don't understand. And even as a kid, I was walking on eggshells most of the time at his house, and even whenever my I mean, my little brother, he didn't really understand. He just kind of just dealt with it. My cousin would come to visit to she would feel the same way. It was always tension because we were scared of doing something to set my dad off start yelling and cussing us out. It sucks, and so you didn't have any place of solitude, no place of serenity, no place of comfort, no place of support, no place that you felt loved and in safe. I have my best friend, but I wasn't even allowed to see her because my mom was so protective over me, like I was not allowed to do anything. I wasn't allowed to go hang out with anyone. The only thing I could do with school orchestra after school every Tuesday, and church. That was it. We had to literally beg my mom for me to go to my best friend's house. And I barely even went to her house. So I really didn't have anybody. To be honest with you, as an example of my mom being really protective and not letting me do any saying, she didn't even let me go to my high school homecoming dance and I asked her why and she just said, there's no reason, I just don't want you to go, and I'm like okay, and I asked her, was like, so did I do anything wrong, and she said, no, you didn't do anything wrong. I just don't think that you need to go. I still to this day to understand she would do that. There would be times where we would have plans for me to go do something and she would say, actually, no, we're staying home today. We're not going, and I would think it's because I did something wrong. And there was one time where I was a senior in high school and I had senior right, it's like really really bad. I was trying to get all my stuff in order, I was practicing for my senior recital. I was stressed, and I was applied to all these college places and my mom. It really irked me because she just kept trying to get me to stay. And we got into this huge fight because I told her, I said, I can't stay because of what you're doing now. I can't stay because I won't be a to grow as a human being because I'm stuck. And she didn't like that, and she didn't like that I was standing up for myself and she started yelling and things got heated and I got to the point where she literally threw it's not funny. I'm sorry. She threw a lamp at me and I was like, oh my god. And I was like, why would you do that? What was the point of that? And I said something disrespectful and she ended up hitting me in the face. And after that, I was just like you know what. I literally left. I literally start walking down the street and I called my aunt and I was like, can you come pick me up? Because this is not working. I want to live with you until I graduate. I'm just gonna move in with you because I can't do this. I think my senior year was a year of when I really realized like, oh my god, like I'm stuck and I need to get out. What did your aunts say? Oh? It didn't really. She didn't really know what to do because she was just like, I want to be there for you. She came and got me. We hung out, but she was just like, at the end of the day, that's my sister, and I don't want to get in between that. She was like, I will tell her you aren't treating George right. What you're doing is wrong. But at the end of the day, she's an adult and she it's gonna do what she wants. And that's mom. Still having the ultimate authority, yes, and and trying to maintain some control. And then as I'm listening, I'm hearing that she probably had some anxiety of her own because telling you know, you can't go to homecoming, now that that says to me, I want to keep you as safe as possible, and I'm gonna have to keep you in the house. Joe. You know it doesn't make it right at all. No, I've been to other homecoming dances. I'm like, yeah, I went to my ninth grade with my tenth grade one and my limp grade. Why can't I go to my senior one? Why not the senior Are you having a mental break and you needed a moment? And now it's it's bleeding on me, Like yeah, yeah, there's so much more to that. But back to what Kelly McDaniel said, it's had to be a result of her mom's own traumas, right, most definitely that this has been a handed down thing. But when I'm working with a daughter, yeah, I kind of don't worry so much about let's understand your mother's trauma. I don't really want her to be able to unpack her own trying to figure out the why on the mom's side, it's almost fruitless, right. It's about how you process and how to deal with what your experience was, which is a lot of work. I mean, that's why I applaud you, because you've been processing through this. Yes, you are doing the work. Talking about that now, I'm like, holy crap, that's why I am the way that I am now, and it makes so much sense. I'm just glad that Jeanette talked about her story because now it's opening up everyone's eyes too. Abuse in every single way, right right. And I think people again, the betrayal blindness, they just bypassed it because they love these people, and how could someone who loves me do this? And my mom was definitely going through her mental health stuff and that's why she was always by herself and like being a single parent. How old were they when they had you, Joy? My mom was twenty five, my dad was like thirty or something like that. I don't remember you were And you said you were surprised, not a mistake. I was framing that. You know. My dad says the same story. You listen, you why that your dad says, Oh my dad? Every time, I'm like, how did I get here? Dad? Oh? Well, I know what your mom said. Do you need me to fix your TV? And if this, she says she's pregnant. My dad says that every year on my birthday. I wouldn't quite consider that abuse, but I didn't take it well growing up. You can you can laugh because I know Joy Wait a second, does not care? Okay, wait, let me make sure. Okay the way, by the way, but I mean, dad, y'all have been married for over thirty years. Stop trying to act like you know this was one night need TV that it's hilarious. That is a very matter of fact person. He says what's on his mind. He does not care. Now, did that make you feel like terrible? I felt terrible about it. I don't know the difference. My dad doesn't have the language. He doesn't tap into his feelings directly. Did you feel like you had to like walk on the xhels with your dad? Oh? Yeah, but it wasn't looking back. It wasn't a wife from an abusive standpoint or anything like that. But just his language is because he is a he is a an alpha male. Is I can't even describe what you looking at me like that, Tracey. I'm looking at you because it sounds like, are you betrayal blindness? Literally? Are you maybe do you to talk? I definitely have accepted some of those things because my dad is just my dad. I also have boundaries with my dad now because you talk to me any kind of way. So again, I definitely did feel that piece of it. Did you create some boundaries with your dad as you get older? I don't really know how to do that, to be very honest with you, because we I'm actually going through something with him right now where he's not really talking to me and I don't know why, and my brother doesn't even know why, and we're just kind of figuring out that. With my mom, I definitely have boundaries. She actually was the one who taught me how to be how I am when people come at me sideways, and she's even as an adult, she'll try to talk to me all types of ways. I'll ask her to repeat herself, and I'll say, I really don't appreciate how you're talking to me. I'm an adult now, I'm still your child, but I'm not a child. You cannot talk to me that way because x y Z or I'm just not going to have a conversation with you. And that's just respectfully me saying that, And that's with anybody, very clear parameters and boundaries. Now that's with my dad, not really, because I don't really talk to him as I want. I'm gonna be honest. It didn't happen for me still thirty. It might be just or maybe you just own that you don't have have to have a conversation with your dad a relationship with your dad. Trust me, he tries, but it just he goes through these spouts of not really talking to me, and I can't really do anything about it. But I do have some boundaries. If I feel like he's raising his voice or trying to talk to me all types of ways, I just get quiet because that's what I did when I was a kid. Okay, how do you feel about him having these moments of the drawal from you? How does that affect you emotionally? It affects me a lot, because I want to tell him what's going on. I want to tell him all the awesome opportunities I've gotten and what I'm doing now. I haven't even been able to tell him that I've told my brother and my brother he's supportive and he's super excited for me, and he just he's the same way he's I wish we could tell Dad, and he'll go through like these spouts of like months of not talking to me, and then the holidays come around or my birthday comes around, and then he'll talk to me. And don't get me wrong, I love him. He's a really good encourage or the reason why I am the way I am today is because he's encouraged me to keep moving forward and follow my dreams. I will say that, but other than that, like we don't really Unfortunately, we don't really talk like that, and I want to, but my mom kind of knows more of what's going on than my own dad. So I'm a psychology major, so I'm all about mental health and even if you know what motivated you to be a psychology major, yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I want to help people that are going through something similar that I'm going through. And I haven't graduated yet, but I do. I do know a few things. Yeah yeah. Jeanette felt inkling that something was not right when her mom caught her calorie restriction, which ironically was something that bonded them, but it took her years of therapy with multiple therapists to accept that her mom actually abused her joy How and when were you able to understand what you had experienced from your parents was abuse? When probably around middle school, because for my mom, it was when we were living with one of my aunts and my mom was going through whatever she was going through, and she would take it out of me, and my aunt came to me and was like, I'm gonna have to have a talk with your mom because she can't talk to you like that. And that's when I was like, what do you mean, That's just how every mom talks. And for my dad, it was whenever his girlfriend at the time around the same time, actually pulled me aside and asked me if I was okay because we were at a restaurant and I may have made a comment or done something I don't remember, but I just remember him cussing me out and yelling at me and making kind of a scene in the restaurant and she was like, whoa, whoa, like what And that's when I realized, Okay, so other people are seeing it, so this is abuse, Like this his my parents just being emotionally abusive, and that's when I started to realize, Okay, so I'm not just a bad child. They just have stuff and they're taking it out on me because just meet me, right, so someone else sees this, now, it's not it's not me that part. Plus we came kind of from a six and stones generation. If it wasn't a black guy, Are you being abused? Really? Like we were so literal. Yeah, That's where my dad would always say, is at least I'm not hitting you. And I'm like like, like that makes the pain less though, And that's the thing like that you're saying that makes it ten times worse, like because you know what you're doing is at this point, I'd rather you hit me because I'm like, you were saying all kinds of stuff to me. That's the weirder part about it. I think I read something one time that said it to somebody cutting you out or getting pushed in the eye, Like the brain knows pain. There's the same pain, literally, and the healing process takes the same healing process, but we just can't see the verbal abuse. One of the clear consequences of Janette's abuse was that she developed an eating disorder with the help of her mother. No less, my father spoke to me about my weight in unhealthy ways as well. Okay, so literally I just wrapped my hands and head around the fact that I too have an eating disorder. Joy And so it gave me some comfort to know because so often now, eating disorders stereotypically have been associated with people being on the super thin side and antorexic side, and for me, it's the opposite, it's the other end. Right. I overeat, and I'm grateful now that I have a term and language so that I know I can work through that. How did your parents influence your relationship to food and what is your relationship with food like today? My mom didn't really understand it when I was going through my eating disorder. She's all that I was just being dramatic, and in her eyes, it was I was so stressed out that I didn't want to eat. For my dad, it was him making a comment about my weight and how much I was eating, and because I wanted his acceptance at such a young age, and I honestly wanted him to stop yelling at me. And if that was one thing that I could do that I could control. That's where it started was when I was like in middle school. Honestly, up until now for me, it was more so like a combination of anorexia and bolomia, and now it's of me over eating with candy and snacks and all that jazz, and my relationship to food today is a little bit better. I'm healing from all that. And it's kind of hard to really put into words. Really, it's kind of like a hit or miss, Like it's an off and non type thing. I've noticed if I started to get stressed out, I'll go like days without eating, or or I'll buy a whole bunch of junk food and just stay up all night and eat it. And it's gotten to the point where I already have teeth issues as it is, but now my teeth are being affected by it, and it's like it's embarrassing to talk about. Sorry, I can't believe I've talking about that, but like it's just it's realized, like it when I get stressed out, I started to eat candy or I have to even eat candy to fall asleep sometimes, and that's just it's not good. But because I've had such harmful mental yeah, different experiences with food since I was a child, and even whenever I would go through my spouts, of not wanting to eat. When I was in high school, my mom would literally shove food down my throat and that made me not want to eat even more because she didn't understand. She was just like, why are you not eating? I don't understand. Are you're trying to get attention or you just is that what you want? And I'm like, no, like you don't. I didn't even understand what was going on with me. I didn't even understand. I didn't understand why I didn't want to eat and why I have body dysmorphia and all that. So it's a really tough question. They talked about it on the episode a little bit right about how Janelle character was obsessed with food, but then in her real life she's on this complete caloric restriction let us with no dressing. That's really yeah, that's not considered a salad and right, just you eating like a rabbit exactly, and you think about it, how high water content let us is, right, So you're really not eating anything. And I completely relate with you Joy on the whole dad thing, because my dad he was just weight prejudice and because I was always the chubby kid. It was literally he at one point said, I can't shame you into losing weight. We have talked about it with the neighbors, and we have talked about you, and it's just it doesn't make any sense, like we can't even shame you in a losing way. Why is he talking to other people? That's another thing I don't like is when parents talk to other people about their child. I was an adult at that point, and this is a crazy story about Wait with my dad, my former sister in law literally had taken some of my clothes and decided she was going to throw them away. That's another episode for another conversation. Okay, Yeah, and she did it with my dad's approval. Yes, she throw my clothes away, y'all. Because I went in confront of my dad and I was like, Daddy, what the heck? And he said to me, what difference does it make? You can't get your big arm in it shirt now anyway? And I was like, I would have broke down crying. I would have just I would have melted into tears. I would have been like, you know what, You're right, dang, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. But I relate in that moment, Tracy, like you sharing that. That's how I related to when Jada said, like she calls it the unthawing, because I definitely my dad definitely said stuff that made me cray. I wanted to cry about and couldn't crab about. So now that definitely crap about time all the time. See I didn't cry then I was mad as hail. I understand, I'm an Arias on the hothood, so I get mad more. So now I'm just starting out with I'm allowing myself to feel the emotions because back then I wasn't allowed to cry, and now I'm like, okay, so now I'm allowed to, Like, how do I feel now? So I get it right? Is it that I'm even feeling? Right? How are you able to find light and joy and all this darkness and hurt? What? What were your what were your coping mechanisms? That's really good question. It was my imagination of me dreaming about my future and getting out becoming therapists. Or I could just do my childhood dream and be an actress and to move far away and I have to worry about this. I would play violin or watch Twilight movies. Really, my coping was movies and it's okay and read it and playing violent because I had nothing else to do. I was by myself. That's why I'm obsessed with movies, because that's literally all I could do. And so I would let my imagination wander if what I would want to do when I was an adult, and that would give me some kind of comfort of okay. In this movie, this is what they did whenever they were kind of going through something of what I'm going through. Maybe this is what I can do in the future. That right there was My method was me remembering there is a light at the end of this tunnel. I know it sucks right now, but I would tell myself, Joy, just take your dreams and take your imagination and put it into reality, and like, just do it. And that way you can't move far away and not have to work out this. And so I'm still doing it. I'm still figuring that out. Still have visions, still have hope, still have dreams. Yes, yes, Dinia, this is often attract it's cold dependent romantic relationships, because that's what she had with her mon Jolia married. So how has all that you've experienced with your parents affected how you developed your relationship with your husband. Oh, I'm laughing. I love the Oh, I'm so sorry, I'm laughing. I have to laugh because that's wow. It's hard. It's very very, very very very hard. We've been married for three years, we've been together for five years. I'm having to remind myself and learn that my husband's not my dad and he's not going to cust me out say the things that my dad would say, and even my mom too. You had to remind myself that because you grew up this way and your parents treated you this way, it doesn't mean that your husband's going to treat you this way. And even if he did do things that would kind of trigger me, I just I don't really know how to answer that question. Um, it affected a lot, to be honest, it's still affecting a lot. And we both came from broken homes and we're trying to figure that out together and it's definitely affected a lot emotionally, how we handle conflict, our communication. We knew that we love each other and we wanted to be together, but now it's like the nitty gritty parts of marriage and we're literally going through that right now. Both of our parents has definitely affected our relationships with each other. It's mostly emotional really, and like communication because I'm too scared to communicate how I feel. I mean, I know my husband's not my dad, but I'm worried that he's going to blow up, go off and go on a tangent and not want to talk to me anymore, or I'm being too dramatic, So I just kind of shove how I feel down and it's not going to explain me, and I over explain. Holding your breath and still walking on eggshails hoping that you don't suffer reconcussions. Yes, that's basically what's happening, and it just it takes time. And let me tell you something, joy being married, at our being married, it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. You're in the year where it's okay, the honeymoon is really over now. Oh so I'm with you. Okay, wait a minute, when you get past your seven you will be in a smooth selling period. Just trust me. That's what everyone's been saying. You're six or your soul. How was your husband able to handle your trauma while you were dating in such a way that you trusted him enough to marry him? Maybe someone else is dealing with this right now and they're like dating, like you got married. What was the deciding factor? Maybe it was very hard for him. I definitely had a lot of walls up. It took months for him to realize, Okay, like she obviously we want to be with each other, but she has trauma and trauma from other relationships too. It wasn't until I did open up to him about my childhood, and then he opened up about his childhood, and then he started to kind of understand where I'm coming from more and why I was so shut off Because my whole life was taught to be shut off. It was taught from an early age to be alone and handle everything alone. And so when it came to like us dating and us even having like fights and stuff, he had to remind himself where I'm coming from and where I grew up, and vice versa with him too. But it wasn't until he sat me down after three or four months and he was just like, hey, I'm not trying to scare you. This is not me trying to scare you away, but I'm just going to lay it out on the table. I do see myself marrying you. I want to marry you. Yeah, and he It wasn't until he put his intentions, saying, hey, you're safe, it's okay, you don't have to put so many boundaries up, just so you know, like my end goal is to marry you. And that's when I realized, Okay, so he does want to be with me, like I don't have to be scared of really showing myself fully and it just I think that was Yeah, that's when I started to open up more. Was when you said those words. I was like, Okay, so you want to be with me because you want to be with me forever and not just you know, for the time being. Yeah, And I needed to hear that. Do you guys have time where you do canceling or sessions together? We're about to. It's funny you asked that we have before, but we're about too soon because him and I are doing individual therapy and then we're going to do one together. That's great to hear. Jeanette shared that her therapist told her that maybe she doesn't have to work towards forgiveness of her mother, and I agree. I don't think we have to forgive people who don't deserve it or we don't aren't ready to maybe forgive them yet. GAMMI framed it in a good way, which is we can reach acceptance sometimes rather than forgiveness. So Joy, where do you feel like you are as far as forgiving your parents? I forgive them a long time ago. To be honest, I forgive them every single time they do anything to hurt me. I have to remind myself that, like, they have their own stuff going on, and it doesn't, you know, justify it's not an excuse, but I have to in order to forgive them, I have to just say that are going through their own thing. I don't know what that is, but and the time being, the least I can do is forgive them for what they did. They might not even know what they did to hurt me, but for me to feel better about and moving on, I have to forgive them for what they did and what they said to me growing up and even recently, because otherwise I'm just not going to move on because that takes such tremendous strength and it's it sucks. But I have to forgive in different ways, like I have to learn how to forgive too, because I have ten thousand other things to worry about and other people that have hurt me too, and even with other people hurting me from myself, I know that in order to move on, I have to forgive them and figure out in myself in my mind. Okay, so what does that look like, satisfying yourself to get to the next, to your next now and your journey of healing. Yes, yes, that's so powerful. Joy. Wow. I think your name as much of a surprise as you may have been your mom may have needed her TV fixed, or however you got here, I think that the name that they selected for you is completely appropriate because even in the midst of you having the parental abuse from not one, but both of your parents, you have found the joy in your life and are in pursuit of that and are intentional. The one thing that you have is those are your stories. Joy, So you can select whatever is you want to share. You can share what you think is going to be helpful for someone else. You can share what it is helpful for you. That's cathartic, that gives you the continued release that you need to say, you know what, this is what happened to my mom and here's how it felt about it. Yeah, I love you guys. You guys are so cool. That is like, that is the ultimate compliment. Absolutely, thank you. I'm not gonna learn. Had a lot of anxiety. I was like, if what if I say the wrong saying? What if I don't look right? You look fantastic and everything you said was perfection. Thank you. We're gonna take a short break right now, and when we return, we're going to share a brand new segment with you. I'm looking forward to this. I can't wait. We've been saying this all season long, and it continues to be true that the Red Table is covering some immensely tough topics this year. Right. So while these conversations are important for our growth, we also want to make sure that we are all equipped to care for ourselves during this time while we do this introspection right and probably assess some of the relationships that we're in. That's why we are including a new segment on upcoming episode. So get ready for our first mental health moment. We get to welcome Katie Morton to Let's Red Table that I'm excited about this. Katie is a licensed marriage and family therapist, YouTube creator, author, speaker, and passionate psycho education facilitator who works to deepmystify mental health and replace stigmas with understanding her master's degree in clinical psychology and years of experience at her own practice, Katie now shares her expertise with the masses via social media. So smart, Thank you so much for joining us at our virtual red table, Katie. Yeah, thanks for having me. So excited to have somebody here with all these accolades. Right, absolutely, I would need someone to help us navigate through these things. It's more common than we really realize. We're discussing mental and emotional abuse by parents on this episode of Let's Red Table that and a common thing we've seen is people who are not even realizing they're experiencing some type of abuse or toxicity until teenage years and sometimes even adulthoods So, Katie, what are some honest people can look for right now to just identify there in an unhealthy or toxic environment. Yeah, I mean there's quite a bit. Unfortunately, one of the things we don't realize the most is emotional neglect, like things that aren't there because we always look for things that are right. We think of like, oh, if I was physically abused or sexual abused, even that it's hard for people to often actually acknowledge and not try to minimize. But when things aren't there, when we don't feel heard or understood in our family, I think that's a big piece. If you ever feel like when I go home, I don't fit in there, I think that's a good indicator because that means that no one ever heard you, no one ever met you where you're at and said I see you and you're important. And those words are just so they're so key to our growth as a child. Right to feel seen and heard and understood. I mean, I think we say it and think yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, But if we didn't get that, oh god, we need it. You know, it's like it's it's palpable. So I think that's like one of the number one things, or I mean a more obvious one would be not feeling safe, like always feeling more hyper vigilant. And I think some of us can feel that way physically or emotionally, right like I have to have my guards up. I don't know who's going to try to trigger me with this, that or the other, or maybe you know you have that crazy and her uncle who always wants to engage in that conversation. You don't want to have pay attention to those things. Yeah, avoiding those awkward moments with that Oh, here's that family member that's going to ask me this thing I don't want to talk about. Right, I've definitely at all and I've told him I don't and they still try. Right, they don't respect about that. Katie is being you know, one of the things environmentally, because that happens in so many families so often. But that's good to know. It is we think of things as like normal, right, that's like what oh families just uncomfortable. We take these things and like it should but it shouldn't have to be that way, right, And so just notice if that's happening in your family of origin when you have to go home or let's used to live home, and then a way you can know if you're like, well, I don't really go home ever and I don't really engage. Do you notice and just be honest with yourself because I'm even laughing in my own life. Do you see the same patterns in your relationships? This could be romantic, this could be friends. Is there always like the same kind of hiccup and like I said, you kind of have to take time with yourself and be honest because there tends to be these patterns. Like for me, back when I was growing up, if someone got too close too fast, I call it puffer fishing. I was like, get out. So absolutely, yeah, just to push you away before or it's just uncomfortable like and like you said, like sometimes we felt like, especially dealing with your family, we had to deal with them because that's the uncle whoever. But you can actually remove yourself, and when you're children, you don't really identify that. You know, you can do, like your spidey sense goes off to tell you something's wrong with your gut, but there aren't people around to affirm that, to say yeah, you're right if even if they heard you to your point earlier. In your latest book, try Ammatized, which is all about identifying, understanding, and coping with PTSD and emotional stress. That's a lot. I mean, so many of us have that you share some therapeutic techniques to heal from childhood trauma. Could you give our listeners a sneak peek into some of those techniques things that we can start using today. Yeah, one of my favorites is if you start to feel overwhelmed. Because something that's really common when we've been traumatized or abused or just honestly like in chronic stress, is we dissociate. Do you ever have those like lapses in memory where you feel real spaced out and you just you're like, I'm just not here with you. I'm kind of here with you, but I'm not. If you're feeling that way, or if you start to feel it, come on, you start to feel yourself fade, do a full body shake, like like a dog out of the bath, because what's happening is our nervous system is killing us up for fight flight. So it's getting all this energy ready to like save your life. So thanks nervous system, But if we don't have a way to get I don't. I know. It's like Jesus, thanks for coming to my rescue. But right it's not actually a threat that I can run or fight from. So what do you do with energy? You dissociate boom, So you have to just shake it off. You have to move it out and give it a way to get out. That's why we can find ourselves fidgeting too or feeling like restless or like that anxious feeling inside because it's all cute up. So I think that's something that we can all do. I even find if I'm feeling a little extra anxious or on edge before bed, I just do a full body shape them and it's really called me feels a little weird. You can do it like in secret, but it works. I think I'm going to do a full body shake out now, you know, like I love that. I love to body shape, and I probably I'll probably sing with my full body shape Katie. You know, just you can totally turn on some music and make it like a dance movie. We can give it a sound, not even just to shake. Sometimes I feel like for me personally, I need to just verbalize whatever emotion I'm trying to feel because I don't have words for you know what I mean. Sometimes you need to shout or make a noise totally because that's like your expression of that energy. Right. So that's how we can go to all the time. But I think another good tool for people that maybe is a little more labor intensive is if we find ourselves acting in ways we don't like and going like why did do that? Why did I say that thing? Start engaging in what I'd call like a mental impulse log So when we have this urge, right for me, it'll be like I'm going to buy that random thing on Amazon that I don't need but I think, or for some people could be like I want to drink something. I want to say that thing in text or call or whatever. We can feel very impulsive about what I want to get out of the house. We just feel this like gonna move consider just for a second, take a beat instead of doing the thing, I think, what is it that I actually feel right now? And what is it that I'm trying to say with this action, Because a lot of times when it comes, especially for myself, like when it comes to buying that random thing, it's that I've earned it because I'm I'm worth it, because I'm enough, but I don't believe it, so I try to prove it through purchase, which is such an interesting thing, and a lot of us we just don't correlate it right. We're like, but it was cool. I saw it on TikTok that it does like five things in one in my kitchen, and you know, but then you have like six of those things and you don't use any of them, and you're like, why am I doing this and that way of trying to validate your worth in some sort Yeah, yeah, because when is the last time you peeled the potato? Do you need that? Moves to say to feel are like that's me a target totally, and and so just taking a beat to think what is it that I really am needing? Because usually not all the time. Usually what we're needing is actually connection. That's key. So as we change and as we get older, we even move away, if we go home to visit our parents or even just our family, that parents will maybe still be in their own behavior and not want to acknowledge this is how I live my life now, like even just coming to church with us, or why aren't you looking for a new job? So how can that person respond to prioritize their own mental health when someone's doing That's a great question. And I think we've all been there where they're like, you're expected. And even though I'm thirty eight, my mom still I'm sure sees me as like twelve years old. So right, I think one of my best words of advice this is what I call the hug and roll. So when someone comes at you as something that feels abrasive to you or like boundary overstepping right. Um, it could be anything like you said from you need to go to church. You're like, I don't believe in that, or you need to eat this or don't eat that. You're like, get your thoughts off my body. But you can't say that right, so you have to come in with I understand that you love me and care for me, and I appreciate you so much. So we're gonna hug. And it depends on the person what you want to say, like, especially if it's like my mom or something, I'll be like, I know you love me and you want me to do better, and you're trying to make me healthier. You're trying to, you know, make sure I go to heaven. I get that. So you're hugging, hugging, hugging, and then we're going to roll away, and then you say something like but you know, I'm an adult and I make my own decisions and even though I love you, I can't do that. And so we don't give excuses. We don't because if we give excuses, then there's there's loopholes. There's other ways they can try to keep talking you into it. And so instead of just saying, you know, well not now because you know it's the holidays, or I'm busy and I gotta do X Y or Z, you start to impulsively, like you were just saying, start to ramble off things that the more we ramly acceptable. Oh man, right, that's not even how I feel. I don't want to go totally. You have a parent. Most parents, especially mothers, they're ready for a comeback, you know. It's like, oh yeah, I gotta Oh you don't want to do it for Christmas, will waite child in New Year and then we'll be ready, you know, come first. I don't never want to do it right exactly. And I think that line and then it comes to that they're not happy anyway, because even if you said you wanted to go to church, you don't like what I'm wearing now, you don't like how how long I stayed where I chose to sit, Like it's just never raise your hands at that one song, you know, or what a sing loud enough for? I mean, I don't know what I grew up Pentecostal, So it's like all the music, can we really get into it? If you went into it, like what's wrong with you? My son, Jason is forty and he has his own wife and family, and so oftentimes when they come back, I find myself wanting to, you know, treat him even though you know he's an adult. Obviously he's got his own wife and family. It's still and what you said, he's right back to the twelve year old from me. So I want to say, like, Jason, wait a minute, baby, do you you know you want to say, And it's like, okay, let me get myself together. But I honor where he is, and I think that I need to give myself a hug and roll yes, because you're doing it out of love, just like most parents are. I think if we can just see it from that perspective, that it because often we get defensive, right like they're coming at me wanting me to do this or that, or they're judging my life. Instead, just think it's coming from a place of love. How can I tell them I appreciate that, but I'm not I don't want to, or I'm not going to and just hold it because you are an adult. That's so good, Oh my gosh, it's so good. I am happy that you joined us, Katie. I mean, this is like a gem. It's a nugget that I want to just store away and keep with me because I can use it, and I know that our listeners are going to feel the same way. Thank you so much for coming to the Virtual Red Table and for sharing your expertie. You can learn more about Katie and these topics and others at Katie Morton dot com. Thank you so much for having me. We want to know how you're feeling about this new season of Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about anything with you. Also, please send in your questions at Let's red Table That at red table talk dot com, follow us on Instagram, I am Cara at the Career Cheerleader, and of course follow Tracy at Tracy t row r o w E. Lastly, if you have any questions for Jada, Gammy or Willow about Red Table Talk, send them our way. You can email us or report a voice memo at speak pipe dot com slash Let's Red Table That. Thank you so much for listening. We love, love, love having you listen with us. Continue to go on this journey with us, and make sure you subscribe on I Heart Radio app and please rate this podcast on Apple Podcast. We also want you to give us reviews on my Heart Radio. We'll be back next week for another episode of Let's Read Table Back, Let's Red Table that Hey, Let's Read a Table that Hey. A big thank you to our executive producers Jada pink Itt Smith, Ellen Rakinton and Fallon Jethro. And thank you to our producer Kyla Khru and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally, thank you to our sound engineers Calvin Bayla and Devin Donnaghy.