Sheree Zampino, Will's former wife, joins the table for a revealing and raw conversation about her relationship with Jada. Country music star Jana Kramer reveals how continually forgiving her ex-husband’s multiple infidelities made her lose herself. Sought after therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab explains why we feel pressured to forgive when we’re not ready and unveils her “unforgiveness revolution."
Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the Red Table Pop Podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review on Apple podcasts. On this r T T very special guests Cherie Once, the wife of Will, is at the table for an important conversation about toxic forgiveness, the unhealthy way we pretend to be over in. Do you think there's anything else we have yet to forgive each other for? I can remember sometimes that I really crossed the line. To quote the creator of Red Table that park. She marched all up in that house, like march right into that master bedroom. I was like, Lord Jesus, actress Janna Kramer, you found out he cheated with about thirteen women more m wow, I would imagine to get your madest hell. And I looked through the fall villains, like started calling these numbers. People think they know the entire story and they don't expert advice that will make you rethink how you look at forgiveness. Medick is on a mission to start an unforgiveness revolution. I'm having a whole moment. I'm sorry. Yeah, here. We are at d table Willows on tour and we'll be back soon. So it's just you and me, gam with a very special guests filling in from this Willow. Come on out here, Shari, thank you, no, thank you, Ray. This is a good one. This is as some of you may know, Shari is Trey's mother and was once the wife of will and we have developed a really nice sisterhood. But it hasn't been easy along the way. Yeah, it was, it was. It was a lot. And you know, as we're talking about toxic forgiveness today, sometimes we did have to fake it to make it. I mean, you and I have been in this process because we were baby since we were babies. Yeah, I'm trying to have a blended family and not really having a blueprint of that, like we really had to figure it out along the way. For me, it really was just about maturity, just not understanding the marital dynamic, like okay, well divorce papers are sent and people are over, then this is done. It's like, oh, I guess it ain't never done. No, we just didn't start right. Just so that was my biggest misconception, and that this woman is a part of this family Yeah, it's like not only taking on trade, but Shari was coming along as exactly. And I think to when we started to blend. You are a mom, you know you didn't know what it was like to be a wife, to be connected. I'm imagining it definitely took some forgiveness on your part, because I can remember sometimes that I really crossed the line. It was one time I think Trey had had a play date and he had misbehaved, and I was like, we gotta sit down, we gotta talk about this trade. Can't be behaving this way, and you were like, let me set it up, let me give you another I literally walked in the house just to drop him off, and as soon as I walked in, Jade was like, listen, we gotta talk about his behavior. I was like, Oh, get his daddy please. Why are you talking about what happens at my house right over here? Oh it didn't even happen at your behavior was at my house? Eactly? Oh my goodness. See it was all it was just a lot of of intertwining and it got really kind of detwining it out of orderness. Yes, there was a lot of good everybody the creator a red table. Yeah, it was out of line, but you didn't mean any harm. You were like, listen, we got to get him right right. And I remember one time you came in the house that you went into the master bedroom. You just looked around, Yes, you looked around. You marched into the master bedroom and you wanted to see what was going on, like how it was decorated all that. You marched back there and you were like, oh, okay, I just want to see what it was early on. And I think you were just trying to just like I just need you to know who Queen Bee is around here, Okay, So I'm yes, and come up and here and look here. And I was like, I couldn't say nothing. She marched all up in that house like march right and to that master bedroom, and I was like, Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, that was the house and that's what I knew too. I was like, well, damn, she didn't pick the house out. You know. I can't say nothing. And we were both very fiery. Yes, both of you were coming into this, you know, doing the blended thing. My only requirement was that you treated my son well. Yeah, you did that, and your heart was always right towards him, wanting the best for him. Yeah, when I looked back at how much was put on us and how much was put on you because we were so young and it was so public and it was so fresh, it was like you really didn't even have time to adjust. That's the thing. You had no time. I didn't understand that, because you know, it's like a boyfriend. It's like if you're done with a joke and you're done, you're done. But that's not how marriage works. I don't think that that's how relationship work. A lot of times when there's a breakup, sometimes people tend to jump in very quickly into the next thing. And I learned that if I had to do it all over again, I would have take a beat. I would have definitely had taken a beat as far as putting myself within the dynamic of you guys, exactly, let's give this a year, let's let YouTube just lets you out whatever y'all have to figure out, especially when there's children involved. Yeah, I didn't understand it, but when you got it, but I remember you coming to me and you were tear, you were very emotional, and you said I just didn't know and Basically, what you were saying is I was in the picture too soon. I was I and you apologize to that. And it's interesting because recently I was in that same situation. Now it's a little worse. They were divorcing. What I didn't know is that she was very, very pregnant, uh, and we were all in the same space and she came and I was like, what am I doing here? It is way too soon? And I felt like I'm out of line, Like you just I need to give them because you never know what's going to have, so you don't you don't know. It's like, you know, I don't think anybody is really in their right mind to start making permanent decisions in the midst of something. So you know, it's divorces ain't no joke, right, So thank you because you've always been one to like, you know, I read I don't missed it to give me and we were able to move on. Yeah. I think we were able to have difficult conversations. We were always able to own up, and we knew that it was going to take the two of us to lead the way for the rest of us. Really when set the tone, yeah, absolutely, And remember we had our little books. Yeah, we had our little books. We don't have those books, do you. Of course, we had a journal that we would send back to one another, right, just kind of expressing things to one another that might not have been easy to talk about face to face. Yeah, that was your idea, and I thought that was just a brilliant idea because we set the tone in the pace and we influenced the whole dynamic. Let's work our stuff out. I've never heard of anybody doing that before. Yeah. My philosophy always was, how can I love Trey and not love the most important person in his life, which is his mother. You can't, You can't. And I knew that I can't say that I love Trey and not love his mother and be like, no, she can't be here. No. All that that is in a straight contradiction to me saying that I love Trey. That's really important for people to hear that. I'd have to say that you were probably one of the biggest instruments in regards to me having to really learn it wasn't always about me and to reach for a level of emotional maturity. Not thank you, because I really feel you gave me the grace to evolve and I thank you for that. Yeah, it was your patience, It was It was definitely quite a partnership because somebody we're gonna have words. She was looking at Okay, and then and you. I never forget you had on this spending up in this case. She was like, oh no, She was like, not not today. Do you think there's anything else we have yet to forgive each other for? Um, I hope not. I know right after all, I had after twenty plus years trait about to be thirty, right, I think we're committed to the process. Yeah, I'm committed to loving you. Yeah, I'm committed to giving you grace like your family to me. Yeah, for sure. So trade just that seconde I looked at you, I was like, Wow, it's it's straight. That's your angel. So speaking of forgiveness, we saw a post the other day from our R T T friend Nedra Glover to WAB that struck me. She said, toxic forgiveness is an unhealthy way that people pretend to be unharmed over it or forgetful of the offense. Forgiving to keep the peace or people pleasing is not healthy for your mental health or your relationship. She's got a point there. Absolutely not done that so much in regards to my codependent people pleasing self, So yeah, I know all about that. After Janna Kramer discovered her husband's infidelity, she found herself struggling with toxic forgiveness and self blame. Actress Janna Kramer is known for her roles in One Tree Hill and prom Night, Oh My God, You Have Kid. She took the music industry by storm when she was crowned the Academy of Country Music's New Female Vocalists of the Year. After a pattern of unhealthy relationships, it seems she had finally met the man of her dreams when she married NFL star Mike Cosson. Their highs were public good looks, great careers, to gorgeous children. Their lows made even more headlines. Jane and Mike were open about their struggles, including his infidelity and battles with addiction. They talked about it on their podcast Why Did You Cheat on Me? Like I was willing to have sex with you, so that's the part that stings me, and even wrote a best selling book about how they fought to stay together. Janna says she gave her husband countless times until she finally had enough. The two divorced just eighteen months ago. Wow, Hi, Hide it so nice to meet you. Nice, Thank you so much. You're gorgeous. So let's just start with So. I'm like, so beautiful, Like I need to know every serum, every weed that from you too. So, Jenna, take us back to the beginning of your relationship with Mike. That was thirty and I really wanted a family. I had just been searching to find my worth for a man. Yeah, we've been there. There were flags in the beginning. He had cheated, you know, a month into dating. But I'm like, it's okay. I've cheated in past relationships and I didn't forgive myself for it. So I'm going to forgive you. I can make this work. We can grow together and in the marriage too. Every time you cheated, first, second, third, however many times, like I like, I forgive you. And my daughter was four months old when a girlfriend was like, something's not right with him, and I could sense it. I think I didn't want to leave it. I'm on the road, I'm traveling, like, like, how would I know when she does look through the phone bills, And I looked through the phone bill and started calling these numbers, and then that's when I found out the truth. And then you just went into a process of trying to heal the relationship. I came from a broken family, and my whole thing was I do not want my children to grow up in a broken house. I hated Christmas because I had to separate Christmas and that was stressful, and I want my kids under my one roof. And the thought of another woman raising my child was like, it ain't gonna happen. I know every ounce, like I know every part of her, like she's my child right right. You don't get to do what you did and then take my child away from me. Like I became like real big mama barrass I was like, figure out what this is, come back, man up and be a better man. Even when he would have a few months of no cheating, than something would happen and I'm like I'm back to that. That overwhelming, Like, oh my god, my family is felling apart. Now I need to eat and grasp tighter. And then I get like even more anxious attachment. And he couldn't breathe because I'm just like clinging onto him. So it's like it just became this cycle. I didn't forgive him, Yeah, I said, I trusted him and didn't trust him. I was still always like looking and like trying to find things, and I was living this like waiting for the next shoe to drop. And it wasn't good for my kids, you know. By the time we had then two kids, and you just put all this pressure ourself. So I'm gonna stay again and try now this next time not to be controlling. Maybe then he'll like not cheat on me, you know. Yeah, And I think that's part of that toxic forgiveness cycles. Not wanting to lose something that we valued. What made you feel that things would be different from him every time he did cheat and I would find out there'd be something different he would say that I would hold on to like I'm gonna get baptized, or I'm going to go to therapy every week, or I'm going to go to a meeting every It's like, I'm never going to do it again in the next one because now I'm going to be a better man. And I'm like, oh, I want that better man. Like that's like I waited for him. So finally the last time last April, when I caught him again. He's like, now I know I'll never do it again. And I'm like, and you know what, for that person, she's gonna be real lucky that you will. And that's when I left. So over time, you found out he cheated with about thirteen women more more got it? That has to be really painful. M hmm. It's okay. I know we're both in better situations, but I think about this year. My kids won't wake up at my house Christmas Day. Yeah, that's gonna hurt. Yeah, it's um, that's a hard one when when you're familial, dreams coincide with childhood trauma, you know. And that's like when I get like, that's not fair. He took away my dream too, of what I wanted from my family. Yeah, that's not fair. I would imagine, two, you're mad as hell. I shattered so many things and yeah, did you break your stuff for his? Yeah? So no, there was this like pantry door. He wanted to say pantry door. I'm like, would you like to label every door like bathroom door? So me and my girlfriends we took a bat to it and we just shattered it. And then you know, I destroyed all of his xboxes and all those things that he said was his only advice. I wrote all over his talks. I went real crazy if for a minute, sometimes that's just what it is. Yeah, yeah, I think this is a big one, just in regards to toxic forgiveness. We always think the next woman will get the better version of him. Yeah. That and to get the man that I worked so hard for. I mean we did hours of therapy and retreats to try and fix what was broken. It's like, wait a minute, Like you don't get to get the healthy version like I've thought for that, right, I have a question, did you ever think that of about the better like her getting the better version of Like I'm glad you So what I think is when our union and he should be better because of me, m m m m, because you did so much. Yea, he should be better. So it might hurt to see you with the better version, but he shouldn't be worse because he's been with me. We should have learned something now in this stage of life. I think I left too soon. You know, that was a part of me trying to protect myself. God has let me just severed this now and and go right And if I was in a different time, I would never leave that soon. You know what I mean, you'd work at it whatever reason. We expect easy and we don't get easy. We're like, now, cheating is a whole other thing. That's a whole other thing. Why do you say that, Well, because I think, don't lie to me. I can when I get into a situation. Now, when I date, this is my mindset. And when we're in an alignment and we're in harmony, it's not going to be perfect. But I have the grace. I don't have the grace for a liar. I don't have the grace. That, for me, is the worst thing you can do if you come to me. I'm reasonable, like, let's let's work at it together. Don't don't have all these affairs. I begged him like two weeks before I found out. Just tell me, just tell me, please be honest. That's all I'm asking. I don't care if it's five. We can work through it. I know you and your ex talked about on your podcast his infidelity. We got the juice today. I was bawling last night. So do I mean to start go for it? A few days ago I got a d M saying that Mike cheated automatically. I'm in freak out mode. The really sucky thing about it is that my default can't go to There's no way where I can't just go I trust him a thousand percent. He would never do that, and I think that's where it's stung. So I started dm ng this person. She said he's got a secret device in her and Mike talk all the time and they think they're going to be together and they have unprotected sex, and I'm like, oh my god, and I just started to kind of unravel, you know. I noticed something was up with with Janet the last couple of days. Once she finally told me, it crushed me because it sucks that she can't default to trust to me. It sucks that I've done what I've done in the past to create that in a relationship. Right now, my hope is that years down the line, if something like this happened again, she'd be able to bring it to me and we don't must be able to like laugh about it, you know, because there is that much trust in the bank. There's not been in the bank that good old one day in the future will laugh about it. I didn't know then he was cheating. But even in our book, the book that I thought he was honest and he was sober and being truthful with me, there's a chapter and there were a thousand percent did not tell the truth of what he was actually doing. Nad has to add a bit of extra embarrassment, embarrassment, pain, anger, frustration that you went on this public healing journey and even as you're on this public healing journey, he's not being forthright. Yeah. I know. That's a really good point. Like we had just became New York Times best selling authors about how we got past this, and I'm like, I look like a idiot. Yeah yeah, But he says the podcast was a catalyst for more of his cheating because it made him feel like he always had the spotlight on him. So then I felt like it was my fault because if only we didn't have that podcast, he wouldn't have because the spotlight is on M he has to cheat. I'm confused. He felt pressure to be this like perfect, and not if I wanted to be perfect, I don't think i'd be cheating. And even now, as long as we don't talk about us in our relationship, great, But how rude. Is it though, that they make divorce people co parent. It's like we got divorced for ever reason. Yeah, it's really hard. But with Will, we're better as co parents then we were as husband and why that's how it's shaping up to be. We came together to have try. It took the two of us to make camp, but then we shift it and you guys really enjoy each other. You guys really do take it under your skin, like because it's like never they take trips, I'm not there. They do their thing. No, you're don't have to explain that. Okay, well, yes, I'm not saying that I'm not together. We're not together romantic, but like if he's going on a book tour and his mom is going and his sister and it's fun for me to watch them enjoy each other. It takes time. Though we're not having a trouble everyone. Let's just make that very clear because you know that will be the next it clear. Yeah, but I think a lot of times people are shamed into forgiving, you know, whether it's like if you're the other party, yeah, he like, when are you going to stop? Why aren't you gonna finally forgetting when are you going to stop talking about this? And like, well, it happened two weeks ago, give me a minute. And then I'm like, oh, now, yeah, I have to forgive now because if not, he's getting angry at me for not forgiving. Yeah, and then you have yourself absolutely and then different thinking I'm the reason for X, Y and Z happening after that because you didn't forgive me right, And people will say, oh, you're not being spiritual enough. Oh you don't really have paid you know what I mean. It's like all of these different components I think, you know, especially in this day where it's like everybody's into it's like give you. We don't give people enough time to have that process to bust up the pantry door. Yes, yes, because it is a process. It doesn't happen immediately. Sometimes it takes years. And the hard thing too is because you know we're open and we talk about things, people then slide in my damns, how how much longer are you gonna keep talking about it? When he already and they're like oh, shoot, they're right, It's like okay, when is it time to really let it go so that you can grow you. I also think when outside. People have their opinion their opinion, and they don't know the entire story. Even if you've taken time to tell part of your story, people think they know the entire story and they don't. So a lot of time and they don't. They can't, they can't. So people's projections upon your circumstance, you know what I mean, has nothing to do with you. So how do you let those voices go? Then? Because you can? You cannot. You cannot pay attention to that that has absolutely nothing to do with you, because they do not know your circumstance. And people have a lot of fun imagining. They love it. They love putting all the pieces together and what parts you've told and what parts he has told and you guys had all this. They love sitting there and chit chatting about what's happening in your world. And they have no idea specifically when it comes to intimate relationships, right, it's complex and complicated. Maybe that just wants to go like here's here it is like you know, you know, at the end of the day, as you continue through your healing process, you'll start to realize that people just do the best they can. That's really they really do you know people out here struggling, people in pain. People want you to get over because they want to get over it, or they want their spouse to get over it. It's all a mirror. I understand it hurting. So you know what, don't look at it. Oh my godness, ye you looking at all that stuff that it's a beautiful don't do that to yourself. DM stands for don't matter. But you know that's a process too. You're just you know, being able to not absorb what other people think about you. You know you're beautiful, intelligent, capable, loving. I can just tell sitting here with you, well, you don't have to listen to all that nonsense. And the more we believe that about ourselves, the more that that stuff is. It's like wonder woman, big old brass. Yeah, but it takes time. It takes time, it really does. Let's get natural to the table because she is on a mission to start an unforgiveness revolution. Wow O, our t friend. Nidra Gloverta is a nationally renowned relationship therapist in New York Times bestselling author Welcome Back. I love all these colors. So Nidra, tell us about your unforgiveness revolution. I sit down with people and I hear them really beating themselves up because they want to forgive it. I want to be over this. I want to get over it. And sometimes it is a process and when we force it, it's unhealthy for us. We're secretly mad. We are talking to fifty people about it behind the person's bag when we're like, hey, girl, can you believe the sheet? You know, all of that stuff that we do, when really what we're saying it is I'm not ready to forgive you yet. I don't know if I still need to be in this relationship because I'm really holding on to on thing. This was so big. I don't know if I could trust you again. Yeah, And that's really hard to say it to people and stay it. We force ourselves to be in these situations. We want to keep the family together. Sometimes it is other people telling us you need to get over it, and we just don't have the capacity to do that. And that is okay, right. Sometimes it's that old school thing of you forgive and forget. Back in the day, you didn't talk about nothing. He just kept it moving. That's it. Nobody talked about nothing. Yeah, Well, hasn't it always been forgive a little bit, but pretend to forget. It's like, you know, how do you forget these big things? Now you can forgive, but I haven't figured out a way to erase memory. How do those both coexcess them? It's not bringing it up. That is the grace that you're offering the other person. I forgive you. I don't have to bring these things up, but I also don't have to forget about it. Isn't forgetting too always thought forgetting meaning not that I'll never remember it again. The tool is for me not to keep thinking about it. Yeah, I think that takes a lot of work to get to that point of not thinking about it as often. I say as often because we feel like once we've forgiven something, we should never be trigger right, But there are things that may continue to trigger us. If someone sends another d M, or if you see something, if you smell something, that memory may come back. So it's not that you know, I don't ever want to remember it again or never think about You may have a day, you may have a moment. The intensity changes over time too. I used to going to this one route so I wouldn't see a certain hotel that I knew that he's upped with some people with so I avoided it. But then that made it even worse than my chest. So I was like, I'm not gonna change my route anymore. And over time the intensity I was like, oh, there's a lofty therapy. Oh interesting. Yeah, it's it's like you're exposing yourself to the trigger as a way to the flatten it, right, Because sometimes when we avoid these things, we think I'll never be triggered because now I avoid it to some extent. It's really hopeful for you to be triggered a little bit and learn to manage and the manager and you have so many people like, oh, forget about it, get over it, move on, you know, to take the higher road. It could have been worse. I think we're very rushed about felix. I think everyone here grew up with some adults saying they hit you, forgive them, say I'm sorry. You're like this whole culture of like immediate, So we don't allow people like, well, she just pulled up my hair like two seconds ago. My head is still hurting. Can I have ten minutes to be mad at her? Immediately say you sorry? Well, let's talk about that for a second, because that's really interesting. I'm having a whole moment. I'm sorry, that's okay, No, no, go ahead, you're good. I'm having a whole moment with what. Well. One of the things that my son said to me when he started to do the work, one of the things that came up for him. He felt that he wasn't loved right. And I said, oh my god, your father loved you. What are you talking about? He said, I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about you. I said, you didn't feel loved by by he So we had a conversation. He said that I didn't care about his feelings. That's what it boiled down to. When he was little and he would fall or something would happen, he'd be disappointed because it was around so many women. I would be like, you're okay, So I would cheer him on instead of just sit in that space with him and just be there how you feel it's okay to feel. Maybe about eight months ago doing my work, I said, d him, you're so right. I didn't care about your feelings because I didn't care about mine. I didn't know how like I was always rushing myself. You're okay, You're okay, You've got to be stoic and you have to be tough and you have to get through life. But it was him saying this, and I realized, Wow, he was I didn't have the capacity to care about his feeling. Is not that because I didn't have the capacity to care about mine? And how rushed we are through things, I'm an autopilot. I'm not even real. Yeah, that's how we were brought up. Were brought up strong, strong mothers that were just like, no, yeah, you don't have the luxury, right, Yeah, you need to be tough. So often we're like, you're okay, okay, move through it. We don't even know what we feel, right, So what does a healthy version of forgiveness look like. I think it is the acceptance of the event. It is learning to be less angry, feeling less consumed, but feeling flat for some things that that might not be possible. Okay, And with Janna, you would say she doesn't necessarily ever have to forgive her ex. Yeah, forgiveness as a choice, And just because we don't forgive a person, we can still be kind, we can be pleasant. I think we believe that unforgiveness is being mean towards people. You can be kind and I forgive. You can be kind and not like people. You can be and not like them and they don't have to know about that. So that forgiveness is for yourself. It is for your emotional process. It is it is you accepting the situation as it is. I don't want to come undone when I see this person. It's not you know what, I forgive him. Now we can sit down together. You may never want to sit down with this How can I show up in this space despite what this person has done? But I also know when things, certain things don't sit right where I'm like, oh, some past office coming up, Like I'm not going to be able to have that family dinner that we talked about, you know, like let's let's reschedule that for a later time, because if when I'm in that place, it's not going to be good for anyone, and then I'll just be like angry. So are you guys able to have family donor So We've had a few and some have been great and others I'm like, that didn't sit That doesn't feel good. It makes me sad when I left because I'm going home and my kids are there, you know. But I don't think I'm ready for like an every once a month thing. It's interesting because you fell and you hurt your ankle, right, you would give it time to heal. We can see the swelling, but our heart cannot. We see that, right? Yeah? Do things always heal or does it sometimes not heal at all? Yeah? I think about things as healing and not always healed, because we are we heavy on the e d healed and I'm like, but yesterday you must have been unhealed at five o'clock yesterday. Now you you, you're back in healing and you're gonna be here. So I think sometimes we we get very fixated on being done with done with the work, and I have forgiven. It's like I am forgiving. Yeah, I am healing, I am doing better, right, I'm not done. Yeah, That's why I got the ampersand tattoo. It's an ant because I can be healing and hurt. I can be in pain and hopeful. You can be upset one moment and you can be laughing at another moment, and it doesn't mean that you have to do anything about either of those those emotions you can sit with both right, that's really important that I really want to say that one more again because you can be both things. Well, you know what, this has been a powerful table and Janna, thank you so much. And Nedrew, you know we always love having you at the table. Thank you, Cherie, my pleasure. It's like free therapy, I know. To join the Red Table Talk family and become a part of the conversation, follow us at facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast, produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.