Clean

Understanding TikTok – Should it Stay, or Should it Go?

Published Mar 19, 2024, 9:00 AM

This episode is all about trying to figure out if TikTok - the video hosting platform owned by the Chinese company Byte Dance should be banned or not. Over 70% of young Americans use TikTok, which critics claim is spying on, manipulating, and spreading misinformation to its users. But is TikTok any different than Meta, Google, or X? Our guest’s answer may surprise you… Really, no really!

Bruce Schneier is a cryptographer, computer security professional, privacy specialist, who has been writing about security issues since 2004 and is a fellow at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University; a Lecturer in Public Policy at the Harvard Kennedy School; a board member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and AccessNow; and an Advisory Board Member of the Electronic Privacy Information Center and VerifiedVoting.org. He is the Chief of Security Architecture at Inrupt, Inc.

IN THIS EPISODE:

  • Surveillance as a business model is 100% legal.
  • Breaking down the types of information companies are collecting, and what they’re doing with it.
  • Why does China want to know about our affinity for puppy videos?
  • Social Media’s ability to manipulate is greater than you might think.
  • Russia and China’s preferred platform for transmitting misinformation is…? (Spoiler Alert: It’s not TikTok)
  • Facebook has data on you… even if you aren’t on Facebook-RnR!
  • Data Privacy is a national security issue, but not treated like one.
  • The European Union leads the world in protecting data privacy.
  • The unsettling future of A.I. and personal data surveillance.
  • Cougar hemorrhoids?
  • Googleheim: What you are missing… if you’re NOT on TikTok!

***

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Bruce’s Blog: Schneier.com

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Now really.

Really now really hello, and welcome to really know really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who asked, isn't it really time you subscribe to our show time? As in TikTok and amazingly. On this episode, we discuss TikTok, the video hosting platform owned by the Chinese company Fight Dance, and whether or not it should be banned in the United States, as many in Congress are trying to do.

We're joined by.

One of the foremost experts on the topic.

Bruce Schneier.

We'll discuss how spying, manipulation, and misinformation are at the heart of the to ban or not to ban issue, and whether TikTok is really any different from meta Google or x.

We'll also cover.

How surveillance as a business model is actually one hundred percent legal, how social media's ability to manipulate you is much greater than you think, why data privacy is a national security issue that isn't treated like one, and lastly, cougar hemorrhoids.

You heard me, folks, cougar hemorrhoids. Really, no, really, here's Jason and Peter.

An This episode is about TikTok, because which I know nothing about it. I saw that the majority of Americans state TikTok is a threat to national security. And then you know me, I read a lot in prep and then there's articles that say.

Oh, why that makes me laugh. TikTok is the threat that security. Yeah, and then I read articles to say it's not. And then meanwhile, India has banned it two different times. They have the chairman of.

TikTok who just testified the congressional hero are observation the congresional hero. First of all, you have congress people who are interviewing who are borderline to seased and like they're a step away. Their families have already made plans. They're that old, they've been there that long. Yeah, they have no idea about social media, none, not none. So this guy's there. You do the line of questioning that we love the most about the chairman of TikTok testify, But.

Miss chairman, are you a member of the Chinese Communist Party?

No, I'm from Singapore.

But are you a member?

Are you now or have you?

Where? And where do you currently reside?

And if i'm if I'm the CEO of TikTok, I'm looking at him and here's the bubble that are over my head. You knew I was coming, right, You have staff, couldn't google me? Yeah? The other question, this is why we wanted an expert on. This guy is a big time expert coming on. So they're worried the TikTok's going to take our information. Can't TikTok just call Facebook and say you got it?

Already got it?

And I'm going to ask our guy, Brushneier. But now I'm not on TikTok, but I am on Instagram. I'm on Instagram and our show is on all the platforms. When we created an account for the show, what the information did we have to surrender to them? What did they know that that the Chinese government is going to feast on that?

What? What? What did I give up? Can I tell you I put in my social Security number? Did I give them my my children's stock?

What?

What did I give them?

That is a sycle? You're full of it, Because let's get our expert on Bush Schneier, who is called a security guru. This guy is testified in front of Congress. He's written tons of articles. He can tell us the really not really we're looking for today? Really if it's so dangerous, it's so horrible, why am I reading articles it says it's not dangerous, not horrible.

Is TikTok dangerous or not really nice?

Tell us already we want to really already, don't yanks around. Bruce Schneier has joined us. He is a security expert. He's written multitude of books. He's He's appeared in front of Congress about hacking, about tech. He's a fellow at the Brickman Klein Center for Internet Society at Harvard University.

Lecture Harvard who my kid went to the yel so you know who I'll go.

I'll give a who to Harvard, even though yeah.

You don't know it's another So, mister Schneier, we want to have you on because this TikTok thing is confusing. You. Hear that most Americans think that it is an evil, horrible thing. I know that the company administration tried to ban it but couldn't. So welcome to the show. And what do we need to know about? What do we need to know about TikTok? That will clear up this question for the people listening.

Probably not going to clear it up, but we could certainly talk about it. Okay, so let's start generally, all of these social media companies make their money spying on you. TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, every last one of them. Right, they spy on you, They know a lot about you, and they try tonipilate you. Right, they try to sell you stuff. That's their business model. So in that way, TikTok is no different than anybody else. On the other hand, TikTok is owned by the Chinese, which makes it different. Is a threat national security? I don't know is Facebook trans national security? Is there a difference that matters? Maybe it's actually complicated.

But what do they Here's the thing that Peter don't know.

We're talking about, what do they know about me?

Like, I'm not on TikTok, but when I when I sign up for social media, I have to give them an email address.

I have to give them very little information about me.

But okay, Google, Google, Google knows what kind of porn you like. Okay, that's how you search for it, right. Google knows everything you hope, everything you fear, everything you searched. And these things are very intimate. You got a Google phart knows where you are at all times, knows who you're with, because you've all got a phone. These are the amount of information about us. Facebook famously knows your relations before you announce it. They knows if you're voted, know who you voted for, They know your sexual orientation on the things you do and post. These are very intimate portraits of us through our actions and tiktik, they know a lot about us, and the amount is kind of staggering. Those are a fortunate consumer ports she's a couple of weeks ago, and all the information Facebook buys from other companies to compile the dossiers. Assume TikTok is the same thing. They all do this and the Internet is built on spying. This is the most effective surveillance device you've ever seen.

So are we concerned about let's say that it's a Chinese government is in fact spying on this in some way? Are we concerned about the metadata that we are giving to these people, or are we concerned literally that if they want to manipulate Jason Alexander, They're going to go into my profile, figure out what I'm vulnerable about and manipulate that.

What's our bigger concern?

Let's let's let's do them several. So let's let's talk about the spying first. Now, the Chinese government does a lot of spine and they were behind the Equal Facts data breach. Remember that one seventeen, under forty seven million credit records of Americans were stolen by the Chinese government. They were behind the Office of Personnel Management. I think that was a year later. This is the profiles of everybody with security clearance. They hacked Mariota Hotels. They told database the zoo stay and where. If you sort of look at this, they kind of want to know who comes in to their country. US a government employee. If you have all of this data, you could know a lot about individuals. And you can imagine US government wants this data. Chinese government, a lot of governments want this kind of data. So yes, you could easily imagine China collecting data on Americans through TikTok. You could also imagine them buying it by from Facebook, like Facebook sales all this stuff, so they don't need their on social network. So that's sort of data surveillance. So yeah, I think there's an issue here. Is it really different than Facebook or Twitter everybody else? Probably not?

But wait, but wait, let me let me before you go into the other. The issue was that the Chinese government, if you have a Chinese company, which this is a Chinese company, can decide to do whatever they want, and then the Chinese government goes, we want your fine, we want your info, and they have to them.

So of course, the same way when the US government asks Google or Apple or Facebook for data, the US government lead the companies give it to the US government. And you know, we know something about how these companies respond to data requests from countries around the planet, right, you know they do. We don't know to what extent they These companies respond to orders by the Chinese government for day US companies, but you're right, a Chinese company will respond quicker or effectively give it all right, like more under the control of Chinese governments. So that's definitely a concern. It's a matter of degree, not client. So that surveils Let's move to the other half. Manipulation, all right, we know that US companies engage in some manipulation. Facebook rand and experiment in mood alteration where they where they show that if they showed you happy posts by your friends, you'd be happier they showed you sad post you'd be sad. They showed that they were able to affect whether you voted or not by showing you posts of people you knew who also voted, or not showing you those. We don't know what extent the US companies manipulate, right which you only know Twitter. Make sure you see Musk's posts and the posts that he likes. So yes, you could easily imagine TikTok doing the same thing. And even though that malicious intent, it is clear that the algorithm sends people down rabbit holes of depression or you know, anxiety, or maybe even blissfulness and happiness I guess said is better than happy for engagement. So we know that, like everybody else, TikTok does that. That is that is the nature of social media. The question here is could they do it on behest of their government? And the answer is yes. We kind of know the answer because the TikTok available in China is very different than the TikTok av the United States. The Chinese government actually has restrictions on the amount of this kind of manipulation TikTok and do on its own citizens, but in the US it's a free for all. TikTok and behave just like Facebook, Twitter and everybody else.

Wow, that's that's a really really right there. Is it much of a difference from.

You know, I don't know, because it's not much experimentation. I believe it is. I believe there are rules on on the kind of contact content TikTok and show Chinese users they have on engagements, so they don't want people addicted to it, you know, But that's not just TikTok, that's all social media. But of course it's in China, so you've got you know, the Western social media doesn't penetrate.

But Bruce, and you're talking about usually young users. Correct, TikTok's used younger than.

Other Seventy percent of young Americans use TikTok. It's a crazy number.

That's that's insane. So what about misinformation pushing out generated misinformation that the Chinese government wants they use to create some kind of chaos over here and division.

They surely can. They probably better off using Facebook like everybody else does. I mean, that's what that's what Russia does. That's what so so likely they'll use Facebook because I think you know, more older people are on Facebook. But sure they can use TikTok, and are they just like everybody else. So again, there's no difference here, this information on Twitter, this invation on Facebook, on TikTok. The question which things interesting is is there a difference? You know, when you hear also banned TikTok, we talk about that because that's kind of a nutty ideas on its face, they're saying there's a qualitative difference between TikTok and Facebook. I'm not convinced there is. Well, there's a difference a degree probably, but not a difference in kind.

But our Facebook, Instagram, the other major social media companies are they American based companies.

Yes, So the big difference is the Chinese.

Government is TikTok, it's our spying is good, they're spying no good.

Well, but the question is how much spying can the Chinese government do using the American companies?

Right?

They can't, Right, they can't get the same amount of bold data because they don't have that direct government line. But you know, we know they try to hack into these companies all the time. Google has been fending off China for like a couple of decades now, usually going after the Gmail accounts of Taiwanese dissidents, so you know, are they in We don't know.

So let me ask you about this because I've read that the algorithm is different for TikTok, that the algorithm there is about minutes and hours of time spent, whereas the others we're talking about are about clicks and engagement. Is that a nuance that makes a difference?

It probably does, you know. So all of these Western social media sites, and we'll add TikTok in the United States, right, they make their money showing you ass So their goal is to keep you on their platform as long as possible, which tends to mean extreme content, things that pissue off, things that are outrageous, and you know, cute puppy videos, right, So all of those things are shown on all these platforms to keep you engaged. Now, it's interesting the difference. Apple's the one company whose business model doesn't rely on spying you.

Right.

Apple makes money selling you over price electrocs. So Apple systems tend not to have that addictive quality because the company doesn't need addiction to make money. Wow, there's other companies do.

Right.

The more you use Google, the more money they make. The more you use Facebook, and the more money they make as opposed to Apple, which is singularly different.

So given all this, what as a security tech guru, what are you called upon most to do?

What do you do for these companies?

And my second part of that question is what can what can the consumer? What can I do while I'm on my social media to push back at this?

If anything?

Are you gonna hate that answer? Uh?

I mean, what can the consumer?

What can I do while I'm on my social media to push back at this?

If anything, you're gonna hate that answer? Uh? I mean a lot of what I do is security consulting, you know, how to networks safe? The answer your question when you asked, like, as a generic user, what can I do? And the answer is almost nothing, right, because your data is not in your hands. Think about what your data is. Your emails on Gmail, your photos are on No No, No, some photo site. Your documents are in the clouds somewhere else. You know, your calendar is here. Your data is no longer under your control now, So all these security measures, you've got to trust the companies. And that's a terrible story because the companies are like pretty untrustworthy. But at this point, the advice I can give you is very much around the edges, because your data is elsewhere controlled by other companies with their rules. And you call up, oh, I don't know, you know, facky and say, you know, I want to know what security measures my photographs are being protected by and they say, no, we won't tell you. Your choice is to trust them are not. So what can you do? Don't have a cell phone, don't have an email address, don't have a credit card, like, and that's kind of stupid advice for the first quarter twenty percent.

So I can't let me ask you this. Can I Can I game my feed? Can I refuse to click on stuff that.

I know they want me to click on?

Can I can I not be sucked in by the enticements and thereby change what they send me?

I mean you can, like, if you stop clicking on those cute puppy photos, they're going to stop sending you cute bubby photos. But honestly, they're cute bubby photos. They are hard not to click on.

But I'm thinking more about I'm thinking more about political stories or cultural stories where you know it's being fed to me because they think they understand my bias.

And you know, maybe so.

One of the things I teach this in a policy school here at Harvard, and I had students last week download their Facebook and Google data. Both of those companies allow you to download their data about you. Do it. It's actually interesting what they have on you, how they've categorized you, what they've gotten right with they've gotten wrong. Now, in the United States you don't have any ability to correct that. In Europe you have some ability to have them delete your data and correct your data. Not in the US you have no recourse.

I downloaded on I see egregious things said, There's no way to correct, no way to contact them.

Says you see posts on Facebook you wrote but never sent.

Can you well hold on hold on a second posted post.

Yes, if you wrote something and said, you know, I don't want to send that, delete it. They've got a copy.

We need to do. You got to testify in front of Congress again. Damn it.

I you know you can see it yourself. It's it's I get it. It's there. They have an idea of where you live and where you work based on sort of where you are during the day and night, and of course you all have one. They know who you sleep with, like are you are you able to?

Uh?

Is that something you can explain, like in a few sentences about how somebody goes to download their data that way?

Uh?

You know what I tell them students is go do it because it's not that hard. I mean, type into Google, download your Facebook data, gives you instructions.

It's not you know what's so funny if you got me the next question was going to ask, it would be that how do you down? How do you download?

Because I'm now seriously, I'm I I signed up for Facebook.

I have never used it.

So I always tell anybody if you saw something of me on Facebook, it ain't.

But knows you have Facebook collect data about you even if you're not on Facebook.

Well, then may I just say them?

So when you testified in front of Congress, were you completely frustrated when when you finished by the questions they asked, So, I'll.

Give you a secret unless your high profile like a Zickberg. I mean the test of the congressional hearings you watch on television, most of the members aren't there. They're staffers there. Wait that.

I knew that, But that's this is a good thing.

The staffers are who you want to talk. They're the ones who know stuff and get stuff done. You know, I tend to know. I'm speaking to the staffers. So yeah, the members will ask questions. There'll be questions, the staffers wrote often they want to hear the answers. I'm good at giving answers and non techi terms, so I'm likable.

You know.

I'll give them homework. They laugh.

But I want to hang myself since we started this whole.

Yea, but let's talk about answers. Let's talk about the notion of of what we might meet and say to ban Facebook.

Right, I mean I was going to ask you, how would you change the laws here?

Yeah?

Okay, So there are several ways to do this. So the first one is you could ban the app stores from selling the app I would make from making the app available, So the Apple and Google app stores app is no longer available. This is like vaguely effective. It won't affect the seventy percent of young people have already installed the app. It's on their phone. Anybody who jail breaks their Apple phone or uses an alternate app store for Google, will they all download it? So you can still do it. Presumably the kids will exchange tricks on how to do this. It'll be vaguely effective. It doesn't affect the website at all. You can always go to TikTok through the website. So not a great idea. Let's do another one. Congress can ban US companies from doing business with Byte dance by dance to the company that would and this is what Donald Trump tried in twenty twenty and the courts courts blocked it. All right, So what this does is it keeps TikTok from being on American infrastructure. It would have some effect. It would definitely cut into TikTok's business. US advertisers couldn't pay money, but adds on TikTok if it's actually subsidied that Chinese wouldn't make that much of a difference. Maybe a little slower to load because the servers will be in Europe or in Canada instead of in the United States. Okay, so that's two. The third thing they can do is actually try to ban the companies from being on the internet the United States. And this would be incredibly difficult. This is building a censorship regime like China. We do not have the ability to enact that sort of ban, So our options tend to be further back in the financial realm, either prohibiting the app stores from having it, phivting US companies from doing business with byte Dance. I'm not gonvin still be that effective. And they're a big deal. I mean there really are. You know, we do that for things that are actually freaking dangerous.

So they can't prove, they can't prove unequivocally what's going on, So, Bingo, are youre likely you're.

Being spied on by the Chinese?

I mean, duh, if we had a functional Congress and that they were savvy enough in this area, is there any kind of laws that we could create that would diminish the ability of these companies to legally do what they're doing?

And yes, I mean right now, surveillance as a business model is legal without any regulation. You know, Google can sell what kind of you like to whoever wants to buy it. So yes, and Europe past some of these laws. The US doesn't. So when I think of the problem and the solution, I go back up right. I want serious data privacy laws that protect us from all the companies, not just TikTok, but the rest of them as well. Yeah, you know, a good regulation that protects us from all the companies, protects us from the Chinese. Now i'd like to be able to say that. Look, you know, surveillance as a business model is now a national security concern.

So they're collecting all this information on us. And these companies want to grow and grow and grow. Where are they going to go next for revenue model? Since they have access? Is there something that's coming that we're not prepared for that you see from the cyber area that we haven't even dealt with yet.

So they've already telegraphed, they've already said pretty much all of them that their future is AI, that AI being able to analyze better and manipulate better. Now, I don't know how much of this is real, how much of this is a red herring, but that is what they are saying. And they're looking at the same things you are, right like, we're saturated. What do we do? They see AI as a way to loose their.

Revenue revenue screen because that's what it's about. Well, thanks, it's been a pleasure having you on. I now have and I'm going to go hang myself.

I like this optimistic podcast.

This is great, but have you changed your baid? Do you feel pretty good every day? Do you get up and go to Harvard whistling fixing on the way to class or do you have.

Honestly, you have to I mean yes, I mean this is a lot of bad stuff in there, but you know, I tend to be longerm optimistic. This is not gonna be the thing that will, you know, destroy civilization. We've gone through a lot worse, and honestly, everybody makes their own decisions. I don't use Facebook, but I freaking play Pokemon Go.

That's a space game, you know.

So I'm not telling you to not to do these things. Don't think of that. We all make our own trade offs. Now, you want to watch the cute puppy videos, go to town. It makes you happy.

You like the puppy thing, don't you You know, I don't know.

I don't actually watch it's what's coming up. It's coming up.

Well, I don't actually watch my own porn. I don't do it. I have puppy is playing with my IP.

All right, this is this is the way to a sharing.

You just made just uncomfortable.

Finally, fantastic, I got.

Well, you're thanks for coming on, man, I you amazing, amazed, Thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate it.

See on the app. Okay, listen, if you had to do it, could you unplug from all of it?

You couldn't do it.

No, what would I do to talk to you all day? I want to see stuff that's interesting.

Well, you couldn't talk to me. I'm like, I'm away myself.

Well, what did we do is get this? We had it? But you can't. You can't opt out. You can't opt out there.

Honestly, there are days where I wish every satellite would just explode so that we could go back a little.

Bit to no communication systems.

It wasn't that there were no communication systems. Things false. First of all, there was more privacy. Second of all, false falsehoods didn't propagate.

By the way, there was no more prophecy. My grandman knew everything that's going on with everybody. I used to say to her, did you read Grandpa's diary? You look at you stuff? She said, Well, I'm going to go to bed every night with a stranger. She said, you listen, you follow me up and followed you over. I want to know exactly what, David.

What do you got David.

Oh Man.

What don't I have?

Right, what don't you have?

Let's see?

Can I add to the pessimism or I don't know.

We've had enough of that. TikTok.

Have you got you guys views TikTok.

I do not.

I work on TikTok A lot. Go ahead.

You know what tworking is. So that is something.

Well, condescen means talking down to you.

Let me give you a little view of some of the things that you're missing.

Okay, so here we go, leave you on things we are missing. Yeah.

So the number one video of all time on TikTok has two point one billion views. It's from a guy named Zach King, and it's called Zach King's Magic Bride. I can't believe you haven't seen this. He appears. He's like on a suburban street and sort of a Harry Potter get up and he's like literally flying.

I've seen him.

I've seen it. And it's a mirror and he shows you the mirror and the thing.

Yes, yes, yes, so that that seat you watch it.

I don't watch it on TikTok. I didn't watch it on TikTok. Oh it came to me instead. Oh, Instagram. Well, there you go. You're luckily.

Luckily for you, the Instagram has completely ripped off the TikTok look at you.

Another one.

This one's actually a sort of sweet.

It's from a woman named Naya Dolly uh, and it's.

Called Nya Dolly's Beauty Tutorial. Look in this one.

But she's a very dark skinned African American woman doing her makeup, and she's very sweet, and it just sort of shows you, you know, a little bit like it's not all the typical, you know, stuff that you actually would assume was was our TikTok.

So that was nice.

Some of the other things that I looked at that are nonsense. The world's largest elephant toothpaste experiment, So that one has two hundred and sixty six million, because I have no idea what that's about. Another one, this is the number two video on the on the app.

It's Welcome to the Sister's Christmas Party by James Charles that has one point seven billion views. And this one, and I know you're gonna download the app because it's so exciting.

It's called Bella Porches m to the b.

Uh Huh, which has seven hundred and thirty one million views, so.

And you have no idea what happens on the m to the bit. No, I couldn't be bothered, You couldn't. I thought.

The one that would have gone through the roof is the the iguana who's having the acid trip?

Well, whose floor is that? Not my floor, not my flaw and not my problem. Remember that one? That that thing, Oh that was one of the funny.

You know what, this is scaring me more than the security brief. How about that? You don't know that we spend time looking at this stuff that the iguana iguana, Well.

It's not talking one. It's a it's an animated one.

Animated one.

Apparently the story behind it was a guy dropped acid and they put him in a closet and recorded him and then they animated this lizard whatever. But that that moves society forward.

That kind of Yes, it makes us better, yes, better people, and it also gets a Chinese to go. I don't know what.

I don't know what.

I don't know what we do. You know what, we put up a lot of stuff that con That's what I was with their head.

We game it with that, and I only watched certain kinds of things. Can I yes, right, cougar. Yeah, what's that cougar?

Ham around with these all day long?

Yes?

Yes, wow, give me another?

Okay, okay, all right, all right, hold on second.

Do something with a train and hold on dancing. No.

I was going to go right to Madonna Each, and I got to give me a minute, right, but Madonna Each the world's largest wawfut, we're going lee there. We only got it, Thank you very much, Davin. I feel like we haven't moved the ball at all. The question was TikTok safe or not? Well?

The question was is China profiting?

Yes?

Are they spying?

Yes? Are we yes?

Is everybody spying?

Yes?

Have we been compromised?

Yes?

Are we in trouble?

Yes?

Is anyone going to help us?

No?

You are our future people who.

Have not resited.

Yes, that's another episode if really no really comes to a close. I know you're wondering how many global users do the top ranked social media sites actually have that answer in a moment, But first let's thank our guest, Bruce Schneier.

You can follow Bruce.

On x where he is at Schneier. On Facebook, he is Bruce Schneier and he has a blog at Schneier dot com. Find all pertinent links in our show notes, our little show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and threads at really No Really podcast And of course you can share your thoughts and feedback with us online at reallynoreally dot com. If you have a really some amazing factor story that boggles your mind, share it with us and if we use it, we will send you a little gift. Nothing life changing, obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and take that bell so you're updated when we release new videos and episodes, which we do each Tuesday. So listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, what are the.

Top social media apps and how many users do they have?

Well lower down the list or some you may recognize.

Threads has one hundred million users, Cora has three hundred million, LinkedIn has four hundred and twenty four million users. X formerly Twitter, ranks in at number thirteen with five hundred and fifty million users, and the top ten ranked from number ten to number one. Sinoweibo five hundred and ninety nine million, Kui Show six hundred and seventy three million, Snapchat seven hundred and fifty MILS, Telegram eight hundred mil, Little Old TikTok at one point two to two billion users, we Chat one point three to two billion, Instagram two point oh four billion users, YouTube coming in at two point four to nine billion. What's App is number two with two point seven eight billion and blowing them away at number one is you guessed it? Facebook with three point oh five billion users per month worldwide and maybe two hundred of them follow me. No, really, million, It really is the production of iHeartRadio and Blase Entertainment

Really? no, Really?

Every Tuesday best friends Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden are joined by experts, newsmakers and ce 
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