Really now really.

Really now really.

Really now really Hello, and welcome to Really Know Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, the number one podcast in America thinks it would be just great if you subscribe to this one. In this episode, you'll learn.

Really now really Hello, and welcome to Really Know Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, the number one podcast in America thinks it would be just great if you subscribe to this one. In this episode, you'll learn.

About one of the world's biggest wine frauds who sold twelve thousand bottles of fake wine. Really no, really, You'll learn about the secretive black market for wine, the correct way to taste and authenticate wine, at how wine and organized crime goes together, like Shabilee and Brie, and now here are two guys who go together like Vanilla and Kale. Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden Now Really, really.

About one of the world's biggest wine frauds who sold twelve thousand bottles of fake wine. Really no, really, You'll learn about the secretive black market for wine, the correct way to taste and authenticate wine, at how wine and organized crime goes together, like Shabilee and Brie, and now here are two guys who go together like Vanilla and Kale. Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden Now Really, really.

Stu, I why do I always start? You start this one?

Stu, I why do I always start? You start this one?

By the way, you should leave that in if he's saying you start, what I always start?

By the way, you should leave that in if he's saying you start, what I always start?

I always do. I always start because you always say to me, come out of the show on the start of the show. I've never said that. I've never said that. Do you feel it? Yes, but I would saying that's weird exactly. So here we go. I'll do you, I'll do you. Here go, ready, Laurie.

I always do. I always start because you always say to me, come out of the show on the start of the show. I've never said that. I've never said that. Do you feel it? Yes, but I would saying that's weird exactly. So here we go. I'll do you, I'll do you. Here go, ready, Laurie.

Here's how Jason starts every episode. We have a very special episode today. This is special And I go why, and you go, I don't know, but I like calling it that.

Here's how Jason starts every episode. We have a very special episode today. This is special And I go why, and you go, I don't know, but I like calling it that.

You know, you make up crap about me all the time, A I've never said that. I'm still reeling because you put out to America that I'm an underwhelming driver and and.

You know, you make up crap about me all the time, A I've never said that. I'm still reeling because you put out to America that I'm an underwhelming driver and and.

Wow, that was some episode.

Wow, that was some episode.

I'm still hurt by that. I'm still all right, all right, fantasies.

I'm still hurt by that. I'm still all right, all right, fantasies.

Around, Wow like a person.

Around, Wow like a person.

So this episode, you know, really there was another incident of wine fraud.

So this episode, you know, really there was another incident of wine fraud.

And I have been.

And I have been.

Fascinated with wine frauds since I saw the movie Sara Grapes Yes, which was about the huge wine fraud that was exposed.

Fascinated with wine frauds since I saw the movie Sara Grapes Yes, which was about the huge wine fraud that was exposed.

Not to be confused, by the way, not the Larry Davis right.

Not to be confused, by the way, not the Larry Davis right.

This was one where there's a wine fraud and that one of the Koch brothers was scammed and he hired a private investigator and they found out that this guy was doing his own wines and I think was twenty million, thirty million dollars. Auction houses didn't catch it. It was amazing. So with it yet another wine fraud, we wanted to have on somebody who could kind of tell us what that world is about and why this fraud happened so often, and when you look up this person, they're it Marine Downey over is it over twenty years experience at this point, yes, over twenty years experience stands out as an independent expert on finding real wine, the foremost authority on counterfeit. And your name does come. It's like you're it. You're You're the big Kohona and this thing they call you the Sherlock Loans of Wine. One of the fifty most powerful women and wine. She specializes in on authentication and valuation. You have inspected hundreds of millions of dollars worth of wine and you advise the top collectors that sat among.

This was one where there's a wine fraud and that one of the Koch brothers was scammed and he hired a private investigator and they found out that this guy was doing his own wines and I think was twenty million, thirty million dollars. Auction houses didn't catch it. It was amazing. So with it yet another wine fraud, we wanted to have on somebody who could kind of tell us what that world is about and why this fraud happened so often, and when you look up this person, they're it Marine Downey over is it over twenty years experience at this point, yes, over twenty years experience stands out as an independent expert on finding real wine, the foremost authority on counterfeit. And your name does come. It's like you're it. You're You're the big Kohona and this thing they call you the Sherlock Loans of Wine. One of the fifty most powerful women and wine. She specializes in on authentication and valuation. You have inspected hundreds of millions of dollars worth of wine and you advise the top collectors that sat among.

A graduate of Boston University that you know, we're many people in my arms.

A graduate of Boston University that you know, we're many people in my arms.

I got nothing, I got no trials, know nothing, Grand Sea. Welcome to the show.

I got nothing, I got no trials, know nothing, Grand Sea. Welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks so much for having me.

All right, so we got to ask about the wine for it. So what Tower Grapes was about? What's the guy's named Karna.

All right, so we got to ask about the wine for it. So what Tower Grapes was about? What's the guy's named Karna.

Rudy Curnea one, Okay.

Rudy Curnea one, Okay.

So my question about that and other things that we'll get to that that are baffling about the credibility of wine and the pricing of wine. That was a giant fraud, like twenty million dollars worth or more more?

So my question about that and other things that we'll get to that that are baffling about the credibility of wine and the pricing of wine. That was a giant fraud, like twenty million dollars worth or more more?

No much, how much?

No much, how much?

So the restitution and I did the reports for the DOJ that set most of the restitution. But he owns over twenty eight million dollars in restitution. But he sold at least one hundred million dollars worth of counterfeit wine. So my question is at the time, say that's worth like you know, ten times that today.

So the restitution and I did the reports for the DOJ that set most of the restitution. But he owns over twenty eight million dollars in restitution. But he sold at least one hundred million dollars worth of counterfeit wine. So my question is at the time, say that's worth like you know, ten times that today.

So here's my question underlying that, with all the experts and the somalier's and the people who can describe wine, no expert picked us up.

So here's my question underlying that, with all the experts and the somalier's and the people who can describe wine, no expert picked us up.

That's not true.

That's not true.

Oh it's not true.

Oh it's not true.

I thought that it was starting research, go to researching.

I thought that it was starting research, go to researching.

Starting and shut up.

Starting and shut up.

I was a friend of Rudy and the guys at Acker and you know, there was a small group of us in our twenties. But by two thousand and two I was running the wine auction new auction house at Zaki's, and Rudy decided that he wanted to be a player and he tried to sell some wine with me. Now, one of the things that always baffled me was that if if a kid were to walk into an auction house with millions of dollars worth of jewelry. The auction house would be like, all right, prove to us that you want it. Where'd you buy it? And he never claimed that. Like, his parents were major collectors and this was their collection, so he had to have bought the wine, right, So when he tried to sell this wine with us at Zakis, I said, okay, show many receipts, and he couldn't come up with a receipt. So a couple of years later, you know, he's selling thirty four million dollars in one two pre piece auction and I'm like, I is nobody in the world asking questions. The somoliers in New York, some of them who one of whom is a huge part of this story, worked with me at Zaki's. He knew Rudy was a crook, and for some reason all these guys went from like doing the right thing to wanting to be part of the party. There was way too much money and way too little education, and these guys all wanted to believe and it was Peter Pan in a bottle. It was also it was lots of drugs, It was lots of hookers, like.

I was a friend of Rudy and the guys at Acker and you know, there was a small group of us in our twenties. But by two thousand and two I was running the wine auction new auction house at Zaki's, and Rudy decided that he wanted to be a player and he tried to sell some wine with me. Now, one of the things that always baffled me was that if if a kid were to walk into an auction house with millions of dollars worth of jewelry. The auction house would be like, all right, prove to us that you want it. Where'd you buy it? And he never claimed that. Like, his parents were major collectors and this was their collection, so he had to have bought the wine, right, So when he tried to sell this wine with us at Zakis, I said, okay, show many receipts, and he couldn't come up with a receipt. So a couple of years later, you know, he's selling thirty four million dollars in one two pre piece auction and I'm like, I is nobody in the world asking questions. The somoliers in New York, some of them who one of whom is a huge part of this story, worked with me at Zaki's. He knew Rudy was a crook, and for some reason all these guys went from like doing the right thing to wanting to be part of the party. There was way too much money and way too little education, and these guys all wanted to believe and it was Peter Pan in a bottle. It was also it was lots of drugs, It was lots of hookers, like.

It is this is the Wolf of wine Street.

It is this is the Wolf of wine Street.

It is one hundred percent.

It is one hundred percent.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, So they were all a lot of people were all in because they were benefiting in a big way.

Yeah, yeah, So they were all a lot of people were all in because they were benefiting in a big way.

I said that Rudy was doing this. In two thousand and two, Bill Koch had had a suit, so I started working with Bill's investigators at OA and with the FBI and OA. Did nobody know. Of course they knew. We knew in two thousand and two. We knew that the guys at the auction house where he sold the wine were chandelier bidding and putting fake underbids in their book. It was an open secret. So and you know, don't talk to me about some lia's like really, some lias do not. Because you study wine does not mean that you know how to authenticate old and rare bottles. And even if you do know about old and rare wine, if you were to take a case of bottles and put them in a cellar in perfect condition, twelve bottles, and come back to them fifty years later, they're all going to be totally different. Think of triplets, Separate triplets at birth, right, bring them back when they're sixty years old. They're not gonna all a lot in common, right, So anybody that's like, oh, well, I can tell that that's counterfeit because I tasted it.

I said that Rudy was doing this. In two thousand and two, Bill Koch had had a suit, so I started working with Bill's investigators at OA and with the FBI and OA. Did nobody know. Of course they knew. We knew in two thousand and two. We knew that the guys at the auction house where he sold the wine were chandelier bidding and putting fake underbids in their book. It was an open secret. So and you know, don't talk to me about some lia's like really, some lias do not. Because you study wine does not mean that you know how to authenticate old and rare bottles. And even if you do know about old and rare wine, if you were to take a case of bottles and put them in a cellar in perfect condition, twelve bottles, and come back to them fifty years later, they're all going to be totally different. Think of triplets, Separate triplets at birth, right, bring them back when they're sixty years old. They're not gonna all a lot in common, right, So anybody that's like, oh, well, I can tell that that's counterfeit because I tasted it.

There's no way. Yeah, yeah, well I love you. I'm like you, I'm laughing because there was I'm praying. You know all these stories, but I wanted to prepare. So Boss is our restaurant.

There's no way. Yeah, yeah, well I love you. I'm like you, I'm laughing because there was I'm praying. You know all these stories, but I wanted to prepare. So Boss is our restaurant.

I read that there was an incident in two thousand and whatever and two I think we're a table full of ex executives wine connoisseurs ordered a bottle, and at another table was a couple of celebrating like the first anniversary, and they ordered the cheapest bottle, which is called those twelve dollars a bottle, and the restaurant accidentally mixed them up. And the table of course that got the twelve dollar bottle, which was expecting this two thousand dollars I don't remember what it was. Well they you know, it has this, and it has a mouthfeel and it has a do And then when they pointed it out to the table, to the table, we've made a harble mistake.

I read that there was an incident in two thousand and whatever and two I think we're a table full of ex executives wine connoisseurs ordered a bottle, and at another table was a couple of celebrating like the first anniversary, and they ordered the cheapest bottle, which is called those twelve dollars a bottle, and the restaurant accidentally mixed them up. And the table of course that got the twelve dollar bottle, which was expecting this two thousand dollars I don't remember what it was. Well they you know, it has this, and it has a mouthfeel and it has a do And then when they pointed it out to the table, to the table, we've made a harble mistake.

The head of the party went, you know, I knew, I knew something.

The head of the party went, you know, I knew, I knew something.

Understand the story to begin with, if I've ordered a two thousand dollars bottle of wine. They don't bring the wine to the table, so I know Fleischmann's wine right from what they just what the guy pouring go. I assume this is from the two thousand dollars bottle. I don't understand that.

Understand the story to begin with, if I've ordered a two thousand dollars bottle of wine. They don't bring the wine to the table, so I know Fleischmann's wine right from what they just what the guy pouring go. I assume this is from the two thousand dollars bottle. I don't understand that.

I don't know hould that doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, if I'm going to order an expensive bottle, bring it over to the table, open it at the table, pour it at the table. Yeah, I don't want any because I know the Shenanigans can happen right like that. You know, hey, but God blessed the twelve dollars bottle people.

I don't know hould that doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, if I'm going to order an expensive bottle, bring it over to the table, open it at the table, pour it at the table. Yeah, I don't want any because I know the Shenanigans can happen right like that. You know, hey, but God blessed the twelve dollars bottle people.

A big fancy some shape and go over to the couple that knows he can see they're ordering you know, a la cards and he's opening two thousand dollars bottle of wine with and not questioning this whole thing, This whole story is me just so we're.

A big fancy some shape and go over to the couple that knows he can see they're ordering you know, a la cards and he's opening two thousand dollars bottle of wine with and not questioning this whole thing, This whole story is me just so we're.

About to test when they do, like the one test where they send three the same bottles of wine to be graded and one was not acceptable and one was great, and one was and it was the same wine.

About to test when they do, like the one test where they send three the same bottles of wine to be graded and one was not acceptable and one was great, and one was and it was the same wine.

So I'm a wine judge. I do like the International Wine Challenge in London and text them and a couple other ones, and that can happen where one panel will throw a wine out and say it's no good, and another panel will give it a gold. So a lot of it has to do with the mood you're in, who you're with. You know, if you're tasting with a bunch of people that are duds or you can't stand them, or one of them is you know, annoying you or whatever, you can decide that that wine isn't good and another team who's getting along great is great. Like if they're playing jazz, my scores go down. You know, if they're playing like nineteen eighties alternative, my scores go way.

So I'm a wine judge. I do like the International Wine Challenge in London and text them and a couple other ones, and that can happen where one panel will throw a wine out and say it's no good, and another panel will give it a gold. So a lot of it has to do with the mood you're in, who you're with. You know, if you're tasting with a bunch of people that are duds or you can't stand them, or one of them is you know, annoying you or whatever, you can decide that that wine isn't good and another team who's getting along great is great. Like if they're playing jazz, my scores go down. You know, if they're playing like nineteen eighties alternative, my scores go way.

Can I just say, okay, you know what. I'm so happy?

Can I just say, okay, you know what. I'm so happy?

I mean too, because I went from I'm gonna have nothing to talk to this woman about because I'm one of those people.

I mean too, because I went from I'm gonna have nothing to talk to this woman about because I'm one of those people.

I A.

I A.

I'm not a drinker. B. I can taste nothing. You give me a glass of wine, I'll go either it has a fruity quality or a dry quality. And people are talking about I taste this, I taste that.

I'm not a drinker. B. I can taste nothing. You give me a glass of wine, I'll go either it has a fruity quality or a dry quality. And people are talking about I taste this, I taste that.

I go.

I go.

I taste maybe a grape and a lot of alcohol. To me, this is all a fesso. This whole the tasting, and these people that go, yes, I taste the oak, I taste the thing. I was in a I was in Israel. I know, we're going to talk a little bit about the Israeli wineries, but years ago, and I was with a gentleman, an actor who was in the wine business as well. And we're in this wonderful in the middle of the desert, this winery, and he's got glasses and we're all tasting, and I can't taste of God. And he's tasting. How I tell oh, I taste the Uh. There's a hint of cherry in this, And I think this must have been in a an oak cast because I'm getting some oak and he's going from glass to glass. And on the fourth one, I go, can I take this one? I'm getting a rattlesnake. And I think Shlomo may have urinated on this vine a week or cer.

I taste maybe a grape and a lot of alcohol. To me, this is all a fesso. This whole the tasting, and these people that go, yes, I taste the oak, I taste the thing. I was in a I was in Israel. I know, we're going to talk a little bit about the Israeli wineries, but years ago, and I was with a gentleman, an actor who was in the wine business as well. And we're in this wonderful in the middle of the desert, this winery, and he's got glasses and we're all tasting, and I can't taste of God. And he's tasting. How I tell oh, I taste the Uh. There's a hint of cherry in this, And I think this must have been in a an oak cast because I'm getting some oak and he's going from glass to glass. And on the fourth one, I go, can I take this one? I'm getting a rattlesnake. And I think Shlomo may have urinated on this vine a week or cer.

Yeah, And they're.

Yeah, And they're.

All laughing, and I'm going, but that's I might as well be talking the truth.

All laughing, and I'm going, but that's I might as well be talking the truth.

Realistically, so you can study it. It is a language. I've been studying wine since I was eighteen, you know, I studied for the Master of Wine, and in the Master of Wine You need to be able to taste not only what great variety or blend where it's from, you know, the vintage, the soil that it's grown in, but you need to say at what temperature it was fermented? No, yeah, in what kind of vessel it was fermented? And for how long? You can do it? It takes a long time, but you can do it. No, but dudes on Wall Street can't do that. When they're roice.

Realistically, so you can study it. It is a language. I've been studying wine since I was eighteen, you know, I studied for the Master of Wine, and in the Master of Wine You need to be able to taste not only what great variety or blend where it's from, you know, the vintage, the soil that it's grown in, but you need to say at what temperature it was fermented? No, yeah, in what kind of vessel it was fermented? And for how long? You can do it? It takes a long time, but you can do it. No, but dudes on Wall Street can't do that. When they're roice.

You can say this dry ariage soil, it was it was it was.

You can say this dry ariage soil, it was it was it was.

It just it was fermented in the bobo. Yeah.

It just it was fermented in the bobo. Yeah.

I mean so like a lot of so many blancs that are really have like really high acid and really primary flavors, those have been fermented in a neutral vessel, so concrete or steel at a cold temperature with highly rectified yeast strains. It does it actually pretty good?

I mean so like a lot of so many blancs that are really have like really high acid and really primary flavors, those have been fermented in a neutral vessel, so concrete or steel at a cold temperature with highly rectified yeast strains. It does it actually pretty good?

At Wow?

At Wow?

Can I just say something. I'm guessing it takes a hell of a lot to get this woman drunk. Well, I'm thinking she can hold a couple of.

Can I just say something. I'm guessing it takes a hell of a lot to get this woman drunk. Well, I'm thinking she can hold a couple of.

Spit, right, I am irish. No, you do have to spit and and and and you got to drink a lot of water. And but you know, I want to go back to something you can tell the difference even if you're not a drinker. Somebody who is a Coca Cola drinker, if you give them a pepsi, they're going to be like w T right. So even if you think, oh, I can't taste you know, like my father used to always say, oh I can't taste wine. I put two glasses of wine in front of him every time he would go to the best one. Really really, so even though you don't think you can, I think it's more about learning the language of being able to wine taste palate.

Spit, right, I am irish. No, you do have to spit and and and and you got to drink a lot of water. And but you know, I want to go back to something you can tell the difference even if you're not a drinker. Somebody who is a Coca Cola drinker, if you give them a pepsi, they're going to be like w T right. So even if you think, oh, I can't taste you know, like my father used to always say, oh I can't taste wine. I put two glasses of wine in front of him every time he would go to the best one. Really really, so even though you don't think you can, I think it's more about learning the language of being able to wine taste palate.

But then again again one after the other, where you say, when they show price tags, the price tag affects how they taste the wine, that this is a better wine because it's got a higher price tag. So the assumption is that, because I read in preparing for this, that there's so many things people say they taste, but even the best palate cannot taste more than three or four things that don't wind, that.

But then again again one after the other, where you say, when they show price tags, the price tag affects how they taste the wine, that this is a better wine because it's got a higher price tag. So the assumption is that, because I read in preparing for this, that there's so many things people say they taste, but even the best palate cannot taste more than three or four things that don't wind, that.

That's impossible because well, so I have allergy. I'm actually allergic to alcohol. I learned this during the MW War. I know, so I have to blow my nose like crazy. I'm like, sorry, everyone, but I taste tactilely. So a lot of my perception comes from tactile So like when you think of the difference between milk, thig of cream, milk and water, right, you can automatically know exactly what I'm talking about that there's just different feelings. And then you just think of different textures. It's difference between silk and burlap, and those are ways that I would describe tannin. So you know, the the way that you that you approach tasting wine isn't just about the roses and the flowers and you know, oh, I fawn ran through the field after the dew. You know, it's not really that it is actually finding different things. But there have to be more than three or four because you've got aromas which exist, these arresters you have. You know, acid makes you salivate. Tannin pulls the saliva literally from your gums and dries your mouth out. Alcohol burns your mucous membranes, and you can perceive salty, bitter, sweet, sugar weighs heavier on your palate. So I mean, right there, just tactilely, you've got more than three or four.

That's impossible because well, so I have allergy. I'm actually allergic to alcohol. I learned this during the MW War. I know, so I have to blow my nose like crazy. I'm like, sorry, everyone, but I taste tactilely. So a lot of my perception comes from tactile So like when you think of the difference between milk, thig of cream, milk and water, right, you can automatically know exactly what I'm talking about that there's just different feelings. And then you just think of different textures. It's difference between silk and burlap, and those are ways that I would describe tannin. So you know, the the way that you that you approach tasting wine isn't just about the roses and the flowers and you know, oh, I fawn ran through the field after the dew. You know, it's not really that it is actually finding different things. But there have to be more than three or four because you've got aromas which exist, these arresters you have. You know, acid makes you salivate. Tannin pulls the saliva literally from your gums and dries your mouth out. Alcohol burns your mucous membranes, and you can perceive salty, bitter, sweet, sugar weighs heavier on your palate. So I mean, right there, just tactilely, you've got more than three or four.

So God, if you bs, you're so good, you're so good. I mean it is. It's fascinating to hear.

So God, if you bs, you're so good, you're so good. I mean it is. It's fascinating to hear.

Do you go to a restaurant and watch people do stuff and go this is such a bull Look at table light, I mean where they're doing their whole deal.

Do you go to a restaurant and watch people do stuff and go this is such a bull Look at table light, I mean where they're doing their whole deal.

When people smell corks, I always laugh, like, why are they gonna smell the cork? Smell of wine? What's the cork?

When people smell corks, I always laugh, like, why are they gonna smell the cork? Smell of wine? What's the cork?

Smell the cork? You don't.

Smell the cork? You don't.

Because you don't know what?

Because you don't know what?

Okay, what else? Give me other things? People do that to show off. That's all nonsense. God, I love that.

Okay, what else? Give me other things? People do that to show off. That's all nonsense. God, I love that.

And the next time somebody with a cork, I'm gonna go smell the wine. You don't get phot or spinks exactly.

And the next time somebody with a cork, I'm gonna go smell the wine. You don't get phot or spinks exactly.

You can feel the cork and see, you know, if it's too hard or too soft, But don't smell the cork.

You can feel the cork and see, you know, if it's too hard or too soft, But don't smell the cork.

What are you gonna eat the cork?

What are you gonna eat the cork?

Right? Thummest thing I ever saw.

Right? Thummest thing I ever saw.

Oh. I just think that.

Oh. I just think that.

People who wax and wane too poetic or sit there and spend too much time like, yeah, enjoy your wine, but shut up.

People who wax and wane too poetic or sit there and spend too much time like, yeah, enjoy your wine, but shut up.

Just drink it the beverage. Yeah, so I know.

Just drink it the beverage. Yeah, so I know.

I looked up terms, Jason, to these real terms, and you say, if they're real terms, are not youthful.

I looked up terms, Jason, to these real terms, and you say, if they're real terms, are not youthful.

A youthful warm, yes, yes, Oh mommy, oh mommy is when it applies to wine. Who mommy is supposed to be about like a sort of a meaty flavor, exactly. I can't imagine it applies to wine.

A youthful warm, yes, yes, Oh mommy, oh mommy is when it applies to wine. Who mommy is supposed to be about like a sort of a meaty flavor, exactly. I can't imagine it applies to wine.

You want a meaty flavor, you do. You're a little bit of a freak. I can see drinks a lot and never gets drunk and likes leather and a wine. You know, I don't know. Salmon, salmon, it's a color. Oh, I feel like this is all. Don't touch me, don't hit me, don't hit me. Velvety, velvety. I've heard yes, nutty. Now do you have all intense? Sure?

You want a meaty flavor, you do. You're a little bit of a freak. I can see drinks a lot and never gets drunk and likes leather and a wine. You know, I don't know. Salmon, salmon, it's a color. Oh, I feel like this is all. Don't touch me, don't hit me, don't hit me. Velvety, velvety. I've heard yes, nutty. Now do you have all intense? Sure?

Jammy, Jammy, jammy. That's what I put on one night taste Moto.

Jammy, Jammy, jammy. That's what I put on one night taste Moto.

Yeah. A lot of New World wine is jammy and fruit fruit Uh huh.

Yeah. A lot of New World wine is jammy and fruit fruit Uh huh.

Tempting is a descriptor tempting, I guess cerebral.

Tempting is a descriptor tempting, I guess cerebral.

Cerebral they call wine if.

Cerebral they call wine if.

You call wine cell that's like, this really sucks. But I have to think about it a lot, trying to find something nice to say.

You call wine cell that's like, this really sucks. But I have to think about it a lot, trying to find something nice to say.

Yeah, contemplate same thing.

Yeah, contemplate same thing.

Well, and you're a winemaker and somebody's like your wine is very cerebral like I don't want you to be I want you to see it's a delicious.

Well, and you're a winemaker and somebody's like your wine is very cerebral like I don't want you to be I want you to see it's a delicious.

I ask you a question, how much time could you spend on this computient?

I ask you a question, how much time could you spend on this computient?

No, I just wanted because these were one on one site and you pull it off. This is this is ridiculous. You know, were you drunk and you know? So? I was watching a little bit of.

No, I just wanted because these were one on one site and you pull it off. This is this is ridiculous. You know, were you drunk and you know? So? I was watching a little bit of.

Bill Koch was being interviewed by this and that was about the Thomas Jefferson bottles of the Foe.

Bill Koch was being interviewed by this and that was about the Thomas Jefferson bottles of the Foe.

Yeah, but if I had, they're all faux. By the way, there's no real Thomas Jefferson.

Yeah, but if I had, they're all faux. By the way, there's no real Thomas Jefferson.

Okay, is there a bottle of wine from that year that if I opened it today would taste the way you wanted? I mean, I mean gross. You would never drink a bottle of wine that what's like? So the cut off more than x years.

Okay, is there a bottle of wine from that year that if I opened it today would taste the way you wanted? I mean, I mean gross. You would never drink a bottle of wine that what's like? So the cut off more than x years.

Don't drink it. Just look at it as a piece of history.

Don't drink it. Just look at it as a piece of history.

So if there happened to be somebody who was working on the show who could google things, maybe they might be able to lock this up. But there was a there was some ancient wine that was found in the Middle East and it had been topped with olive oil, because that's what they used to use right before corks because olive oil keeps the oxygen out. And then they tested the liquid and it was still safe to consume, right, but it was nasty.

So if there happened to be somebody who was working on the show who could google things, maybe they might be able to lock this up. But there was a there was some ancient wine that was found in the Middle East and it had been topped with olive oil, because that's what they used to use right before corks because olive oil keeps the oxygen out. And then they tested the liquid and it was still safe to consume, right, but it was nasty.

Oh that But so is that basically with the Bill with a Coke brother? Is that? Is that? Is that because there.

Oh that But so is that basically with the Bill with a Coke brother? Is that? Is that? Is that because there.

Are Bill's brothers, So Bill has the when you talk about the Coke brothers, yeah, those are his two brothers, Bills separate.

Are Bill's brothers, So Bill has the when you talk about the Coke brothers, yeah, those are his two brothers, Bills separate.

So when you talk about, okay, the coke from the movie Coke, is that basically just so you can say I have this bottle that It's not about asumption, it's about historical history.

So when you talk about, okay, the coke from the movie Coke, is that basically just so you can say I have this bottle that It's not about asumption, it's about historical history.

Right. So here's a really interesting thing about counterfeit. So prior to Rudy Creneawan, there was a very famous counterfeiter named Hardy Rodenstock. And Hardy Rodenstock was big in the eighties and the nineties. So he's where I learned about counterfeits. Pardy Rodenstock made counterfeits that were not only to counterfeit wine, but they were all important years, you know, like eighteen sixty four, eighteen sixty five, and the Revolutionary War, the year that Abraham Lincoln. So somebody like a Bill Coch who collected wine and Americana is going to go for those kinds of years. So when I teach people about how to authenticate, these important years for the world are something that you look for. Somebody Sotherby's or Christie's did a big spent a lot of money and established the people who collect wine are the most likely to collect something else, at least something else. So people who collect wine rarely only electric.

Right. So here's a really interesting thing about counterfeit. So prior to Rudy Creneawan, there was a very famous counterfeiter named Hardy Rodenstock. And Hardy Rodenstock was big in the eighties and the nineties. So he's where I learned about counterfeits. Pardy Rodenstock made counterfeits that were not only to counterfeit wine, but they were all important years, you know, like eighteen sixty four, eighteen sixty five, and the Revolutionary War, the year that Abraham Lincoln. So somebody like a Bill Coch who collected wine and Americana is going to go for those kinds of years. So when I teach people about how to authenticate, these important years for the world are something that you look for. Somebody Sotherby's or Christie's did a big spent a lot of money and established the people who collect wine are the most likely to collect something else, at least something else. So people who collect wine rarely only electric.

Artur're doing historical, historical stuff. Wow.

Artur're doing historical, historical stuff. Wow.

Right, So Bill Cooke is collecting Americana. So for him that was part of Americana and it was realized because his Americana was going to the Elizabeth Gardner Museum in Boston and they're the ones that fact checked it. But it was interesting. I'd been trying to get a hold of him since two thousand and six for Rudy crniha wand bottles that he bought that I that I knew were just fake as could be so and he never responted no, but I ended up testifying about them in court for him.

Right, So Bill Cooke is collecting Americana. So for him that was part of Americana and it was realized because his Americana was going to the Elizabeth Gardner Museum in Boston and they're the ones that fact checked it. But it was interesting. I'd been trying to get a hold of him since two thousand and six for Rudy crniha wand bottles that he bought that I that I knew were just fake as could be so and he never responted no, but I ended up testifying about them in court for him.

So when you're looking at the bottle of wine, whether it's historic bs or whether it's a real date from way back, did you do authentication of the label the bottle, how bottles were made at that point, where they were made at that point.

So when you're looking at the bottle of wine, whether it's historic bs or whether it's a real date from way back, did you do authentication of the label the bottle, how bottles were made at that point, where they were made at that point.

That's exactly what I do. So and people are always like, well, do you toest the liquid? I'm like, no, because if you test the liquid, it's a twenty thousand dollars bottle and I'm testing the liquid now, now what you know?

That's exactly what I do. So and people are always like, well, do you toest the liquid? I'm like, no, because if you test the liquid, it's a twenty thousand dollars bottle and I'm testing the liquid now, now what you know?

And or oh they haven't think called the rabbit and you can own it. You even have to open the court I know about wine a minute.

And or oh they haven't think called the rabbit and you can own it. You even have to open the court I know about wine a minute.

Listen. Thanks for your contribution. Yeah, the carry on with your thought. I just thought you might not be aware you might have been a resur Thank you for that. Well, it's my pleason fit. I like the contribute.

Listen. Thanks for your contribution. Yeah, the carry on with your thought. I just thought you might not be aware you might have been a resur Thank you for that. Well, it's my pleason fit. I like the contribute.

Yeah, you know, but nobody can. How do you test that? I mean you've got to have a control. So how many controls of nineteen forty five mouton are there? You know, there's a lot of counterfeit bottles out there. And allegedly somebody pete in the bat of the real wine. Wow, yeah, pissed off worker.

Yeah, you know, but nobody can. How do you test that? I mean you've got to have a control. So how many controls of nineteen forty five mouton are there? You know, there's a lot of counterfeit bottles out there. And allegedly somebody pete in the bat of the real wine. Wow, yeah, pissed off worker.

I wonder if that guy in Israel would have tasted Does that make it more valume or less less of it?

I wonder if that guy in Israel would have tasted Does that make it more valume or less less of it?

How much fraud is that? What do you think in the wine world.

How much fraud is that? What do you think in the wine world.

So according to the WHO, more than twenty five percent of all alcohol consumed in the world is illicit. So about twenty percent of wine is counterfeit in the fine and rare sector and the upper you know, echelon, we're looking at ten about ten percent. And what's interesting is that, So, yeah, I when when we authenticate a bottle, we look at the glass and the paper and the glue. You know, does the paper react to u V like because if so, you can date it to a particular time. But in the wake of the Rudy Crenea on fraud, most producers in the world went away from plate pressed labels to digital labels, and unfortunately, organized crime can buy a digital printer fairly cheaply. So now we've just got and and you know, if they get caught making counterfeit wine, nobody really cares. If they get caught human trafficking, they're going to go to jail. So organized crime has gotten into the game. And so the world of counterfeits has actually gotten worse, not better.

So according to the WHO, more than twenty five percent of all alcohol consumed in the world is illicit. So about twenty percent of wine is counterfeit in the fine and rare sector and the upper you know, echelon, we're looking at ten about ten percent. And what's interesting is that, So, yeah, I when when we authenticate a bottle, we look at the glass and the paper and the glue. You know, does the paper react to u V like because if so, you can date it to a particular time. But in the wake of the Rudy Crenea on fraud, most producers in the world went away from plate pressed labels to digital labels, and unfortunately, organized crime can buy a digital printer fairly cheaply. So now we've just got and and you know, if they get caught making counterfeit wine, nobody really cares. If they get caught human trafficking, they're going to go to jail. So organized crime has gotten into the game. And so the world of counterfeits has actually gotten worse, not better.

So there's there's a screaming eagle wine. It now has an interactive authentication code that you type in or the phone number to call and it's you're gonna be saying, I mean, what does it does that work?

So there's there's a screaming eagle wine. It now has an interactive authentication code that you type in or the phone number to call and it's you're gonna be saying, I mean, what does it does that work?

I mean, if I'm this close to the bottle, I already own it, right, I have a problem in my hand, not an investment. So I've been working on a web three blockchain solution that where people can actually get the information online prior to sale, whether it's a primary sale or a secondary market sale, and the producers can actually track through the supply chain. The wine supply chain is one of the most opaque in the world. In the world because everybody's secretive. The supply is so limited and the demand is so great, and they are never going to make more bottles of the wine that they can. If a vineyard is as big as this room, it's never going to get bigger that by law, they can't grow it, especially in the old world. So supply is static and demand is growing, so the supply chains have gotten totally opaque. The gray market is huge, so producers can't even control where their bottles go. And anything that you can scan on a label just substantiate. It's a counterfeit refill, so you know, people are collecting empty bottles and refilling them and reselling them. So we got We got to address the solution before people actually buy. Nobody goes to the wine store and says, Okay, I'm gonna spend fifty thousand dollars. Today they do it from behind a desk. You know, they do it on the phone.

I mean, if I'm this close to the bottle, I already own it, right, I have a problem in my hand, not an investment. So I've been working on a web three blockchain solution that where people can actually get the information online prior to sale, whether it's a primary sale or a secondary market sale, and the producers can actually track through the supply chain. The wine supply chain is one of the most opaque in the world. In the world because everybody's secretive. The supply is so limited and the demand is so great, and they are never going to make more bottles of the wine that they can. If a vineyard is as big as this room, it's never going to get bigger that by law, they can't grow it, especially in the old world. So supply is static and demand is growing, so the supply chains have gotten totally opaque. The gray market is huge, so producers can't even control where their bottles go. And anything that you can scan on a label just substantiate. It's a counterfeit refill, so you know, people are collecting empty bottles and refilling them and reselling them. So we got We got to address the solution before people actually buy. Nobody goes to the wine store and says, Okay, I'm gonna spend fifty thousand dollars. Today they do it from behind a desk. You know, they do it on the phone.

So with organized crime involved now in a bigger way, does it make your job tougher or scarier or more fraught with problems?

So with organized crime involved now in a bigger way, does it make your job tougher or scarier or more fraught with problems?

You know?

You know?

It is interesting. We found a rattlesnake in our house in Sonoma the other week, two weeks ago, and it was right after I made a post about Rudy's back in your house in the pantry on a high shelf. Crazy, right, Apparently we back up.

It is interesting. We found a rattlesnake in our house in Sonoma the other week, two weeks ago, and it was right after I made a post about Rudy's back in your house in the pantry on a high shelf. Crazy, right, Apparently we back up.

You were going in for some Chris gets.

You were going in for some Chris gets.

You opened the thing, and then my niece was and heard the rattling. And my boyfriend's a bit of a prankster. He's a Boston guy, huh. And you know, they immediately started calling it, tell us that rattlesnake is a prank, and I'm like, not a prank. Closed the door, you know it. We're on a big piece the land. So but in twenty five years we've never seen a snake there. So things like that make me wonder I have been physically assaulted, so yeah, and you know, if I had to just put my shoulder down, I ked taking the guy out.

You opened the thing, and then my niece was and heard the rattling. And my boyfriend's a bit of a prankster. He's a Boston guy, huh. And you know, they immediately started calling it, tell us that rattlesnake is a prank, and I'm like, not a prank. Closed the door, you know it. We're on a big piece the land. So but in twenty five years we've never seen a snake there. So things like that make me wonder I have been physically assaulted, so yeah, and you know, if I had to just put my shoulder down, I ked taking the guy out.

But does it concern does it you?

But does it concern does it you?

I take bodyguards to some big, big tastings. But you know, hey, when it when my time's up, my time's up. You know, I'm just gonna keep doing what you do.

I take bodyguards to some big, big tastings. But you know, hey, when it when my time's up, my time's up. You know, I'm just gonna keep doing what you do.

Wow, that's pretty cavalier cover me. I'm interviewing work. Yeah, Wow, Marine, that's that's frank. You know, anecdotally, you and I may be now on the list. Is I'm not still doing wine? I have an open forum.

Wow, that's pretty cavalier cover me. I'm interviewing work. Yeah, Wow, Marine, that's that's frank. You know, anecdotally, you and I may be now on the list. Is I'm not still doing wine? I have an open forum.

Some other people here to point counterpoint kind of thing.

Some other people here to point counterpoint kind of thing.

Marine. Wow, Is there a difference I should.

Marine. Wow, Is there a difference I should.

Care about between a thirty dollars bottle of wine and a two hundred dollars bottle of wine? But is there a value difference, an experiential difference that justifies that change in price, or do you get just as much joy for you know, is everything you're going to get from the two hundred dollars bottle available in a thirty dollars ride?

Care about between a thirty dollars bottle of wine and a two hundred dollars bottle of wine? But is there a value difference, an experiential difference that justifies that change in price, or do you get just as much joy for you know, is everything you're going to get from the two hundred dollars bottle available in a thirty dollars ride?

So a car will get you from point A to point B, whether you're going to spend more money and get an audi or more money and get a Bugatti. Is really the question, like, what are your priorities? I don't drink a whole lot of twenty dollars bottles of wine. Actually that's what I do so many on blanc. But for the most part, I would prefer to have a gin and soda and wait for good wine. For people who don't, who are not looking for the difference, if I put a twenty dollar bottle in a two hundred dollars bottle in front of you, you would be able to tell you would you would? You would even Yeah?

So a car will get you from point A to point B, whether you're going to spend more money and get an audi or more money and get a Bugatti. Is really the question, like, what are your priorities? I don't drink a whole lot of twenty dollars bottles of wine. Actually that's what I do so many on blanc. But for the most part, I would prefer to have a gin and soda and wait for good wine. For people who don't, who are not looking for the difference, if I put a twenty dollar bottle in a two hundred dollars bottle in front of you, you would be able to tell you would you would? You would even Yeah?

And so for someone who's looking for that experience, the price is absolutely justified, hundred percent make such.

And so for someone who's looking for that experience, the price is absolutely justified, hundred percent make such.

I have to say I have.

I have to say I have.

I don't know if you know this, Peter, we have a healthy crop of grapes in my backyard.

I don't know if you know this, Peter, we have a healthy crop of grapes in my backyard.

What am I doing? I don't know. What do I have to do? Are you really pitching your own?

What am I doing? I don't know. What do I have to do? Are you really pitching your own?

Start squashing?

Start squashing?

I probably got enough to make a dozen bottles. Can we make some money on his backyard?

I probably got enough to make a dozen bottles. Can we make some money on his backyard?

What I mean is that you can't just take any jam I mean, can anybody just take their backyard crape and cross them and go whoopee?

What I mean is that you can't just take any jam I mean, can anybody just take their backyard crape and cross them and go whoopee?

I mean a wine?

I mean a wine?

Yeah, I mean they do it in prison.

Yeah, I mean they do it in prison.

They but yeah, well I've got a leg out. How many bottles? So, how many bottles?

They but yeah, well I've got a leg out. How many bottles? So, how many bottles?

I always look at vineyards, like when I go to another country my wife and I'll see a vineyard and it looks like a hillside with the stuff on there. How many bottles of wine can you grow there to make it worthwhile? How much land do you have to have to produce enough bottles that you're making money and it's profitable.

I always look at vineyards, like when I go to another country my wife and I'll see a vineyard and it looks like a hillside with the stuff on there. How many bottles of wine can you grow there to make it worthwhile? How much land do you have to have to produce enough bottles that you're making money and it's profitable.

Well, I mean it depends where there is. I mean, you know, Roman e Kanti is a tiny vineyard, and but those bottles hit and they sell wholesale for eighty five hundred each and as soon as they hit the market their twenty eight thousand. So you can make Yeah. So I mean I don't know you could you could have some you know, some ja estate.

Well, I mean it depends where there is. I mean, you know, Roman e Kanti is a tiny vineyard, and but those bottles hit and they sell wholesale for eighty five hundred each and as soon as they hit the market their twenty eight thousand. So you can make Yeah. So I mean I don't know you could you could have some you know, some ja estate.

Yes, yeah, yeah, that's right. It's really fascinating.

Yes, yeah, yeah, that's right. It's really fascinating.

This is going to take us into like the you know, bigger thoughts about our subject today.

This is going to take us into like the you know, bigger thoughts about our subject today.

But the people.

But the people.

Who are getting ripped off for the most part in this are getting ripped off because they're able to buy extremely luxurious They're in a luxury market for the most part, are they not.

Who are getting ripped off for the most part in this are getting ripped off because they're able to buy extremely luxurious They're in a luxury market for the most part, are they not.

A lot of people say no, So the people that really that make me really sad are like this guy in Copenhagen and I went out and he'd been collecting for like twenty years, and he had collected all of the major vintages of his father's life, the year he graduated from college, the year he met his mother, the year he got married, each one of his siblings' birth years, and they were going to take those bottles back to the producer and enjoy them with the producer. And most of them were counterfeit, And so he was not robbed of money, that's not the important part. He was robbed of that authentic of that experience.

A lot of people say no, So the people that really that make me really sad are like this guy in Copenhagen and I went out and he'd been collecting for like twenty years, and he had collected all of the major vintages of his father's life, the year he graduated from college, the year he met his mother, the year he got married, each one of his siblings' birth years, and they were going to take those bottles back to the producer and enjoy them with the producer. And most of them were counterfeit, And so he was not robbed of money, that's not the important part. He was robbed of that authentic of that experience.

I feel like, and I felt a little of this watching some of the documentaries or I went listen. I'm not happy that these people are being ripped off. I don't condone that at all. But I'm also kind of like caviat Em there, man, I mean, you know, you're when I hear somebody is out forty eight million from their bogus wine purchases, I go, well, you know what, maybe that forty eight million could have gone to some other things.

I feel like, and I felt a little of this watching some of the documentaries or I went listen. I'm not happy that these people are being ripped off. I don't condone that at all. But I'm also kind of like caviat Em there, man, I mean, you know, you're when I hear somebody is out forty eight million from their bogus wine purchases, I go, well, you know what, maybe that forty eight million could have gone to some other things.

Well, and also you know, at the time, at the point that you're getting ripped off, for twenty million bucks, Like, dude, get an expert. Would you really buy that much art? Come on?

Well, and also you know, at the time, at the point that you're getting ripped off, for twenty million bucks, Like, dude, get an expert. Would you really buy that much art? Come on?

Usually what we do after yes is expand the topic of it. We're going to go to fashion and luxury, but we'll do it with you here. So are same thing as far as authenticity. But what's really interesting is I started, I was going to compare it to the fashion industry, and I started wondering why people buy luxury, and the luxury market has exploded. Almost thirty percent of people who buy luxury make under fifty thousand dollars a year and can't afford it, and they want it because of the authenticity and how it makes them feel. There's that endorphrom connection which is really amazing.

Usually what we do after yes is expand the topic of it. We're going to go to fashion and luxury, but we'll do it with you here. So are same thing as far as authenticity. But what's really interesting is I started, I was going to compare it to the fashion industry, and I started wondering why people buy luxury, and the luxury market has exploded. Almost thirty percent of people who buy luxury make under fifty thousand dollars a year and can't afford it, and they want it because of the authenticity and how it makes them feel. There's that endorphrom connection which is really amazing.

And that's certain people. And you know what's interesting is that there was a very interesting study done in Australia and women who wear fake bags and fake watches tend to cheat more.

And that's certain people. And you know what's interesting is that there was a very interesting study done in Australia and women who wear fake bags and fake watches tend to cheat more.

Often because there it's not about authenticity, yes, correct, And the weird thing about that then you look at the role models that these people look at, Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, all these guys wear T shirts, jeans, and hoodies.

Often because there it's not about authenticity, yes, correct, And the weird thing about that then you look at the role models that these people look at, Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, all these guys wear T shirts, jeans, and hoodies.

So the wealthy are about access.

So the wealthy are about access.

Ye, an interesting vantage point because my wife used to work for a very high end fashion design company and in fact, part of her job was, you know, colors would come in and they'd have to name the color. Can't be a blue, you can't be a blue sweater. It has to be a you know, a coral dream or it has to be a whatever.

Ye, an interesting vantage point because my wife used to work for a very high end fashion design company and in fact, part of her job was, you know, colors would come in and they'd have to name the color. Can't be a blue, you can't be a blue sweater. It has to be a you know, a coral dream or it has to be a whatever.

Well, you have somebody who can look up new terms, right.

Well, you have somebody who can look up new terms, right.

But you know, I know from from her experience in that that you know, a sweater would it would cost them eighty dollars to bring it into the into the studio and it would go out to retail at three thousand dollars. And who buys a three things now as a sweater? I go, maybe there's a sweater that is, you know, if it's really a great looking sweater and you need a sweat.

But you know, I know from from her experience in that that you know, a sweater would it would cost them eighty dollars to bring it into the into the studio and it would go out to retail at three thousand dollars. And who buys a three things now as a sweater? I go, maybe there's a sweater that is, you know, if it's really a great looking sweater and you need a sweat.

But there are fashion I see high end.

But there are fashion I see high end.

We all see the fashion shows where every out on that unway is like thousands and thousands of dollars and there are nine people in the world that can wear it.

We all see the fashion shows where every out on that unway is like thousands and thousands of dollars and there are nine people in the world that can wear it.

But those are the statements and the really interesting thing I want to say before we go on this topic, though, the really interesting is young people into thirty though with fashion now and brands there's a secondary market, there's a resale market, so there's another there's a whole other element to that that we never had before, where you can get something by it and then flip it and make make money on it.

But those are the statements and the really interesting thing I want to say before we go on this topic, though, the really interesting is young people into thirty though with fashion now and brands there's a secondary market, there's a resale market, so there's another there's a whole other element to that that we never had before, where you can get something by it and then flip it and make make money on it.

Whatever.

Whatever.

Let's go to GOOGLEHNM though, and see if google Heim looked up your the stuff that you kind of threw out there and said, maybe you'd have a guy who.

Let's go to GOOGLEHNM though, and see if google Heim looked up your the stuff that you kind of threw out there and said, maybe you'd have a guy who.

God Google is. Yeah, google Heim, we got a lot to talk about. Extra be as quick as I can't.

God Google is. Yeah, google Heim, we got a lot to talk about. Extra be as quick as I can't.

As you said, there is a one thousand, seven hundred year old wine bottle sealed, still drinkable and actually not from Israel.

As you said, there is a one thousand, seven hundred year old wine bottle sealed, still drinkable and actually not from Israel.

It was discovered in.

It was discovered in.

A tomb of a Roman noble in Sayer, German in eighteen sixty seven. There was the wine, the olive oil, as we said, and then there was wax in above.

A tomb of a Roman noble in Sayer, German in eighteen sixty seven. There was the wine, the olive oil, as we said, and then there was wax in above.

And they said, I got it. Hap they expected to be nutting and it's still drinkable. How do they know you're gonna prove me wrong.

And they said, I got it. Hap they expected to be nutting and it's still drinkable. How do they know you're gonna prove me wrong.

There's actually a debate going on whether they should open it up and and and try it or just you know, deal with it whatever.

There's actually a debate going on whether they should open it up and and and try it or just you know, deal with it whatever.

But they you know, again, I say, the rabbit then go right through the oil, right through the corn going through the Jason.

But they you know, again, I say, the rabbit then go right through the oil, right through the corn going through the Jason.

She already said that'stically. Oh what does she know?

She already said that'stically. Oh what does she know?

All of a sudden, you're vi there you got your backyard rabbit, all right, all right, yeah go ahead.

All of a sudden, you're vi there you got your backyard rabbit, all right, all right, yeah go ahead.

Damn I'm saying, bar be it for me to back up Peter.

Damn I'm saying, bar be it for me to back up Peter.

But Peter is one hundred percent right with the Balthazar story, according to the New York Post. And I think at decanter dot com, I'm hoping that's more reliable than.

But Peter is one hundred percent right with the Balthazar story, according to the New York Post. And I think at decanter dot com, I'm hoping that's more reliable than.

That the cancer dot com than New York.

That the cancer dot com than New York.

I thought that was a totally different site. I really thought that was where you go when you have a bar mitztray holiday services.

I thought that was a totally different site. I really thought that was where you go when you have a bar mitztray holiday services.

So yeah, so apparently the rest legit wine wine is I misread it was a It was a two thousand dollars moot on nineteen eighty nine.

So yeah, so apparently the rest legit wine wine is I misread it was a It was a two thousand dollars moot on nineteen eighty nine.

Yeah, yeah, and they had put that in the eighteen dollars wine and identical to Cantors, so they didn't have the bottles to compare. And of course it was nobody. Nobody noticed and tell you know, but.

Yeah, yeah, and they had put that in the eighteen dollars wine and identical to Cantors, so they didn't have the bottles to compare. And of course it was nobody. Nobody noticed and tell you know, but.

That couple of the young pem tell you whatever.

That couple of the young pem tell you whatever.

Bottle of wine and except it at the table and at the canter.

Bottle of wine and except it at the table and at the canter.

Because you would never get your you would never get your two the canter.

Because you would never get your you would never get your two the canter.

No, the deal is you don't can't like anything unless it's brand.

No, the deal is you don't can't like anything unless it's brand.

Now, oh look at that. So how did so?

Now, oh look at that. So how did so?

How did bosses are one of the top restaurants not know that? Was that their stick?

How did bosses are one of the top restaurants not know that? Was that their stick?

And you're not to what the eye roll is saying?

And you're not to what the eye roll is saying?

No, no, no, she said, it's saying she said, I don't know more rattlesnakes on shelves.

No, no, no, she said, it's saying she said, I don't know more rattlesnakes on shelves.

I don't need it yet. I don't need Yeah, I got it, I got it, I got it.

I don't need it yet. I don't need Yeah, I got it, I got it, I got it.

I got bark Zuckoper hoodies actually cost about two thousand pop.

I got bark Zuckoper hoodies actually cost about two thousand pop.

Logos on it.

Logos on it.

Yes, but there's still two thousand pop.

Yes, but there's still two thousand pop.

I understand. But other people who are buying Lucky Feet when I.

I understand. But other people who are buying Lucky Feet when I.

Put a logo on, it's you're paying for the labor.

Put a logo on, it's you're paying for the labor.

It's one more thing.

It's one more thing.

And I'll get out of get out of the way the first.

And I'll get out of get out of the way the first.

And wait, I love that he's part of the show. And then I'll get out of your way. Like you're like, okay, thanks, you know what can I can I just say something? I just say something. You always wrong. Oh, I don't want to say why we were noticed. I never do that. Tell me that you were my advocate.

And wait, I love that he's part of the show. And then I'll get out of your way. Like you're like, okay, thanks, you know what can I can I just say something? I just say something. You always wrong. Oh, I don't want to say why we were noticed. I never do that. Tell me that you were my advocate.

Thank you and that's because Laurie is making a face at me like I'm gonna I'm going to wrestle you to the ground if you keep talking.

Thank you and that's because Laurie is making a face at me like I'm gonna I'm going to wrestle you to the ground if you keep talking.

Yes, yes she does that, she texts me. But and this is a happy show behind the scenes. Let the man talk. Companies are don't showing who we really are. No, I beg I beg her.

Yes, yes she does that, she texts me. But and this is a happy show behind the scenes. Let the man talk. Companies are don't showing who we really are. No, I beg I beg her.

One of the first no wine was made over nine thousand years ago.

One of the first no wine was made over nine thousand years ago.

And guess where it was? Uh center the orange everything, I'll just do again China.

And guess where it was? Uh center the orange everything, I'll just do again China.

Now, of course there are no bottles or anything like that of drinkable.

Now, of course there are no bottles or anything like that of drinkable.

Of wine level.

Of wine level.

There was odd you know, vessels or whatnot, and they.

There was odd you know, vessels or whatnot, and they.

Could Yeah, it was a cookie.

Could Yeah, it was a cookie.

It was a mixture fermented drink of rice, honey and hawthorn fruit or break So was it?

It was a mixture fermented drink of rice, honey and hawthorn fruit or break So was it?

That actually sounds very that sounds quite nice. Here's all I want to say. Do you do you collect any luxuriums? Are you a luxury purchasing No? Neither am I.

That actually sounds very that sounds quite nice. Here's all I want to say. Do you do you collect any luxuriums? Are you a luxury purchasing No? Neither am I.

And we're the logan.

And we're the logan.

Here's how I here's why I think all all this stuff. I think it's never the value of the thing. It's only what we attached to the thing. Of course, it is that sounds all about I just I just had an epiphany. Don't say if that was Excuse me, pretend I didn't edit that out.

Here's how I here's why I think all all this stuff. I think it's never the value of the thing. It's only what we attached to the thing. Of course, it is that sounds all about I just I just had an epiphany. Don't say if that was Excuse me, pretend I didn't edit that out.

Not really, but yeah.

Not really, but yeah.

So my parents, when I was a young man, had a painting in our home that absolutely everybody was fascinated by drawn to It was about a two foot by three foot painting on paper.

So my parents, when I was a young man, had a painting in our home that absolutely everybody was fascinated by drawn to It was about a two foot by three foot painting on paper.

It was an abstract piece.

It was an abstract piece.

It had a kind of an oriental feel to it in that it almost looked like letters of some Asian language. It was a beautiful sort of electric cobalt blue that it looked like the artist had drawn a palette knife or some sort of implement into and people would ask who was.

It had a kind of an oriental feel to it in that it almost looked like letters of some Asian language. It was a beautiful sort of electric cobalt blue that it looked like the artist had drawn a palette knife or some sort of implement into and people would ask who was.

The artist, Where did you get this? What was the value?