Now really.

Now really.

Really now, really well, and welcome to Really No Really, with Jess Alexander and Peter Tilden, who invite you to join the campaign, roll the D twenty, acquire experience points, and please your dungeon master by subscribing to our show.

Really now, really well, and welcome to Really No Really, with Jess Alexander and Peter Tilden, who invite you to join the campaign, roll the D twenty, acquire experience points, and please your dungeon master by subscribing to our show.

And if that.

And if that.

Introduction left you lost and confused, then you've probably never experienced the joys of Dungeons and Dragons, the legendary tabletop role playing game featuring elves, dwarves, wizards, fighters, and legions of dedicated fans. This worldwide phenomenon is currently celebrating its fiftieth anniversary Really No Really. Over its five decades, the game has been both hailed and vilified. It has been the source of claims about satanic panic, and it's also been featured on Netflix's Stranger Things and a feature film starring Chris Pine.

Introduction left you lost and confused, then you've probably never experienced the joys of Dungeons and Dragons, the legendary tabletop role playing game featuring elves, dwarves, wizards, fighters, and legions of dedicated fans. This worldwide phenomenon is currently celebrating its fiftieth anniversary Really No Really. Over its five decades, the game has been both hailed and vilified. It has been the source of claims about satanic panic, and it's also been featured on Netflix's Stranger Things and a feature film starring Chris Pine.

But what is this game really about?

But what is this game really about?

And how can it be more popular than ever after five decades? After much an from the self identified nerds on our production staff, the guys bravely ventured into the never explored realms of D and D with one of the game's quintessential experts, John Peterson, who studies the history of games especially tabletop role playing games. And so let's Sally forth the Brave Adventurers.

And how can it be more popular than ever after five decades? After much an from the self identified nerds on our production staff, the guys bravely ventured into the never explored realms of D and D with one of the game's quintessential experts, John Peterson, who studies the history of games especially tabletop role playing games. And so let's Sally forth the Brave Adventurers.

Here's Jason and Peter.

Here's Jason and Peter.

So this episode.

So this episode.

Usually, in a really no really episode, one of us, as we hear about something, we you know, encounter something that makes us go huh, really no, really really and so, but usually one of us will then do some research.

Usually, in a really no really episode, one of us, as we hear about something, we you know, encounter something that makes us go huh, really no, really really and so, but usually one of us will then do some research.

Usually I'm going to give it up.

Usually I'm going to give it up.

You use research, so by the time we meet the guest, you have at least a level of understanding, some knowledge of the inner workings or the complexities of the thing we're talking about. Way to start formulating questions to engage and draw out the vital information.

You use research, so by the time we meet the guest, you have at least a level of understanding, some knowledge of the inner workings or the complexities of the thing we're talking about. Way to start formulating questions to engage and draw out the vital information.

So is this really know really? The really no really is Jason and I realized it's the fiftieth anniversary of Dungeons and Drags, And.

So is this really know really? The really no really is Jason and I realized it's the fiftieth anniversary of Dungeons and Drags, And.

The really know really is that we don't know. We don't know.

The really know really is that we don't know. We don't know.

About this and so and then I start researching and I didn't realize. I guess the one of the companies that owned this previously was called the Wizards of something where. And I'm going, yeah, but you're just reading a line because I'm trying to prep for both of us, And I'm going, so the Wizards of SO and so release the thing, and I'm going, who are the Wizards of So?

About this and so and then I start researching and I didn't realize. I guess the one of the companies that owned this previously was called the Wizards of something where. And I'm going, yeah, but you're just reading a line because I'm trying to prep for both of us, And I'm going, so the Wizards of SO and so release the thing, and I'm going, who are the Wizards of So?

I know nothing.

I know nothing.

I don't know who they are. I don't know what the thing is. I don't know what they released. I don't know how they found it to release it to begin with. Now, my son Gabe, actually my son knowing too, but Gabe, it really plays this and our own David Guggenheim is very into this. I've watched a little bit and it seems to me, and I don't want to be Jordan anyway, it seems like a bunch of people just jerking. You know, I'm an amp, I'm a wizard, I'm a frog, I'm a okay, I'm gonna storm the castle, roll the dice.

I don't know who they are. I don't know what the thing is. I don't know what they released. I don't know how they found it to release it to begin with. Now, my son Gabe, actually my son knowing too, but Gabe, it really plays this and our own David Guggenheim is very into this. I've watched a little bit and it seems to me, and I don't want to be Jordan anyway, it seems like a bunch of people just jerking. You know, I'm an amp, I'm a wizard, I'm a frog, I'm a okay, I'm gonna storm the castle, roll the dice.

You didn't make it, says who, says me.

You didn't make it, says who, says me.

I so, so, here's how I started this.

I so, so, here's how I started this.

This was my introduction, says The first thing I asked David Googenheim is how do you win?

This was my introduction, says The first thing I asked David Googenheim is how do you win?

And he goes, oh, you don't win, right, I gotta go, Yeah, I got I gotta go. You don't win.

And he goes, oh, you don't win, right, I gotta go, Yeah, I got I gotta go. You don't win.

You're just it's not a game in the sense of a game. It's not it's a lifestyle choice. It's a I don't know what it is.

You're just it's not a game in the sense of a game. It's not it's a lifestyle choice. It's a I don't know what it is.

It seems to be a game that you play for all eternities, right, And I said to David, and.

It seems to be a game that you play for all eternities, right, And I said to David, and.

Since prisoners on death row play it, you literally play it to.

Since prisoners on death row play it, you literally play it to.

Your dough by the way, yeah, David goes, you know, prisoners on death row play it.

Your dough by the way, yeah, David goes, you know, prisoners on death row play it.

I said, that's because there was a death right. They got nothing else, thinking, how what are you doing in yourself?

I said, that's because there was a death right. They got nothing else, thinking, how what are you doing in yourself?

I'm whittling a dice a die a twenty sided for twelve years, right, So of course they're playing it.

I'm whittling a dice a die a twenty sided for twelve years, right, So of course they're playing it.

They'll play with it, honestly, by the way, we're being funny. But I don't Maybe I would, Maybe if I understood it, I would enjoy it.

They'll play with it, honestly, by the way, we're being funny. But I don't Maybe I would, Maybe if I understood it, I would enjoy it.

Maybe our fantasy games. Let me just say I don't get it. Let me just say what I see is can you see the two of us sitting for four hours?

Maybe our fantasy games. Let me just say I don't get it. Let me just say what I see is can you see the two of us sitting for four hours?

I like improv. I do improv.

I like improv. I do improv.

I play characters for a living, and you take me to the groundlings on the best night.

I play characters for a living, and you take me to the groundlings on the best night.

Thirty minutes in, I.

Thirty minutes in, I.

Go, okay, got it, bode thout you for that's go home.

Go, okay, got it, bode thout you for that's go home.

It's the best improv I've ever seen.

It's the best improv I've ever seen.

That sands and out.

That sands and out.

Not on death row.

Not on death row.

That's wrong.

That's wrong.

I go, I'm dead and moving up.

I go, I'm dead and moving up.

And by the way, if you're in what's like a tough prison, right now, K, you're right?

And by the way, if you're in what's like a tough prison, right now, K, you're right?

Sure?

Sure?

Rikers? Hey did you hear Johnson Els? I mean does that get you?

Rikers? Hey did you hear Johnson Els? I mean does that get you?

What does that get you? So let's say hi to our guest. Let's welcome our guests, because.

What does that get you? So let's say hi to our guest. Let's welcome our guests, because.

We were and I can't listen, we're making a lot of fun.

We were and I can't listen, we're making a lot of fun.

This guy is the real deal, and there's answers to this.

This guy is the real deal, and there's answers to this.

We're making fun of us though, because obviously we're we're fifty years later, apparently to the part you're celebrating f.

We're making fun of us though, because obviously we're we're fifty years later, apparently to the part you're celebrating f.

Two years and we're going on, I'm still playing hearts and the part cheesy, I.

Two years and we're going on, I'm still playing hearts and the part cheesy, I.

Didn't know broken the code on Monopola, right, So you get who you're dealing with here. Yeah, okay, So we're gonna meet John Peterson, who actually studies the history of games in general, but especially tabletop role playing games and war games, both of which is this.

Didn't know broken the code on Monopola, right, So you get who you're dealing with here. Yeah, okay, So we're gonna meet John Peterson, who actually studies the history of games in general, but especially tabletop role playing games and war games, both of which is this.

His first book has just been re released.

His first book has just been re released.

It's called Playing at the World two E Volume one, The Invention of Dungeons and Dragons. It's been called the history the first serious history of.

It's called Playing at the World two E Volume one, The Invention of Dungeons and Dragons. It's been called the history the first serious history of.

The development of of D and T.

The development of of D and T.

I'm going to use the lingo now D and D. He co authored the Hugo Award finalist Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana, and the New York Times best selling official Dungeons and Dragons cookbook Heroes Feast.

I'm going to use the lingo now D and D. He co authored the Hugo Award finalist Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana, and the New York Times best selling official Dungeons and Dragons cookbook Heroes Feast.

He's also worked on trivial pursuit Dungeons and Dragons Ultimate Edition.

He's also worked on trivial pursuit Dungeons and Dragons Ultimate Edition.

UH.

UH.

He's contributed to numerous academic anthologies and pop culture websites, alluding three things I've never heard of, Polygon fired, and Boeing Boeing, I don't.

He's contributed to numerous academic anthologies and pop culture websites, alluding three things I've never heard of, Polygon fired, and Boeing Boeing, I don't.

Live in.

Live in.

They talk about alternate universes. There's one coming on to our screen right now. So let's John to John Peterson.

They talk about alternate universes. There's one coming on to our screen right now. So let's John to John Peterson.

Hello John, shoot together one two three, Hello John.

Hello John, shoot together one two three, Hello John.

Hello, Well, thanks for having me.

Hello, Well, thanks for having me.

We're so delighted now. Already already I'm learning things.

We're so delighted now. Already already I'm learning things.

You ready for?

You ready for?

What my first observation that's going to be If you're watching on YouTube and you can see the portal at which we're looking at John, his home is nicer than mine.

What my first observation that's going to be If you're watching on YouTube and you can see the portal at which we're looking at John, his home is nicer than mine.

So already something is not right. Something's going wrong and is not right.

So already something is not right. Something's going wrong and is not right.

This guy is pretending he's a dwarf at the battlements. I'm trying to work for a living, and look what he's got versus what I'm here with you. What's wrong with this picture.

This guy is pretending he's a dwarf at the battlements. I'm trying to work for a living, and look what he's got versus what I'm here with you. What's wrong with this picture.

So let me be clear doing D and D history, there is no money in it.

So let me be clear doing D and D history, there is no money in it.

I promise.

I promise.

Congratulations.

Congratulations.

Your parents must be thrilling exactly well. I must love this on a level that's out of this world.

Your parents must be thrilling exactly well. I must love this on a level that's out of this world.

I am a bit of a fan, and I guess some one of those people who feels like D and D was one of the signature cultural innovations of the late twentieth century and that it has led to so may it's been so profoundly influential, and you know, not maybe not the level of like the Internet or something, okay, but like in terms of its pervasive just depiction of a new form of entertainment. Yes, D and D matters.

I am a bit of a fan, and I guess some one of those people who feels like D and D was one of the signature cultural innovations of the late twentieth century and that it has led to so may it's been so profoundly influential, and you know, not maybe not the level of like the Internet or something, okay, but like in terms of its pervasive just depiction of a new form of entertainment. Yes, D and D matters.

So can you talk if you can encapsulate for people like where it came from, how I know it are going to be bored. So I don't want to go too long.

So can you talk if you can encapsulate for people like where it came from, how I know it are going to be bored. So I don't want to go too long.

But people who don't know it, I'd love to be impressed with the stars.

But people who don't know it, I'd love to be impressed with the stars.

Starts came, it's got It must have a terrific origin.

Starts came, it's got It must have a terrific origin.

The argent story of the guys who started, et cetera.

The argent story of the guys who started, et cetera.

If you still it, yeah, I can.

If you still it, yeah, I can.

So.

So.

Back in nineteen seventy four, there are two guys who are Midwesterners who are really into war games. So you got to kind of understand what wargames are to get where D and D started. So, wargames are these conflict simulation games where usually what you're doing is you're replaying like one of the Great Battles of Napoleon, right, and you imagine you're the commander and you can move around little chits on a board, and could you win Waterloo in a way that Napoleon couldn't write?

Back in nineteen seventy four, there are two guys who are Midwesterners who are really into war games. So you got to kind of understand what wargames are to get where D and D started. So, wargames are these conflict simulation games where usually what you're doing is you're replaying like one of the Great Battles of Napoleon, right, and you imagine you're the commander and you can move around little chits on a board, and could you win Waterloo in a way that Napoleon couldn't write?

Sure?

Sure?

And like so these guys are really into games like that. And you know, at around the same time, though, in the nineteen sixties, Tolkien and sword and sorcery fiction in particular started to become like profoundly popular, right, and there was this like chocolate and peanut butter moment where people said, Okay, can we take this conflict simulation stuff, which is all based on like mathematical models and rolling dice and figuring out things like how good this kind of unit is against that kind of unit and apply that to things like orcs and ballrogs and entts and wizards and all the things that would be familiar from Tolkien. Yeah, so really look at it like it kind of started from that and this began for Gary Gygax, one of the two co creators, in nineteen seventy one, with a little pamphlet he published that was called Chainmail, And this was kind of the first book you could buy that had like systems for how to be Gandolf, Like what you know if you want to put him in a conflict simulation context, Like how many hits could Gandalf take in a fight before he dies? When he casts a spell? You know, how many works will be slain by it? Things like that, And this then gave birth to a whole bunch of fascinating activities that started to bring things from the army level down to the individual level, where instead of really thinking about I'm commanding an army where I'll have wizards and I'll have a bunch of you know, soldiers with swords and axes and bows and things like that, down to Okay, each of the players is going to have an individual character, and this individual character might be a wizard, and they'll have a name, and they'll have a set of spells they can cast. And the individual players then take on the roles of these characters and pursue a story in which they adventure in a world. Famously, they go down into these dungeons that appear in the name of the game, where they'll fight monsters and get treasure and become more powerful as a result of it. And this was the birth of what we came to call a role playing game. And role playing games become just so such a big business, not just on the table top, but they quickly kind of jumped into computers. At the time D and D came out in nineteen seventy four, computer games are pretty rudimentary, right, but like you know, by nineteen seventy five, there were already people adapting D and D four computers and pretty much any triple A game that you look at today. And these are games that make you know, billions of dollars, right, that has that DNA in it all. It owes back to that nineteen seventy four original set of rules in which you got to play a character, be a protagonist, adventure, get more powerful, and have a netpic quest.

And like so these guys are really into games like that. And you know, at around the same time, though, in the nineteen sixties, Tolkien and sword and sorcery fiction in particular started to become like profoundly popular, right, and there was this like chocolate and peanut butter moment where people said, Okay, can we take this conflict simulation stuff, which is all based on like mathematical models and rolling dice and figuring out things like how good this kind of unit is against that kind of unit and apply that to things like orcs and ballrogs and entts and wizards and all the things that would be familiar from Tolkien. Yeah, so really look at it like it kind of started from that and this began for Gary Gygax, one of the two co creators, in nineteen seventy one, with a little pamphlet he published that was called Chainmail, And this was kind of the first book you could buy that had like systems for how to be Gandolf, Like what you know if you want to put him in a conflict simulation context, Like how many hits could Gandalf take in a fight before he dies? When he casts a spell? You know, how many works will be slain by it? Things like that, And this then gave birth to a whole bunch of fascinating activities that started to bring things from the army level down to the individual level, where instead of really thinking about I'm commanding an army where I'll have wizards and I'll have a bunch of you know, soldiers with swords and axes and bows and things like that, down to Okay, each of the players is going to have an individual character, and this individual character might be a wizard, and they'll have a name, and they'll have a set of spells they can cast. And the individual players then take on the roles of these characters and pursue a story in which they adventure in a world. Famously, they go down into these dungeons that appear in the name of the game, where they'll fight monsters and get treasure and become more powerful as a result of it. And this was the birth of what we came to call a role playing game. And role playing games become just so such a big business, not just on the table top, but they quickly kind of jumped into computers. At the time D and D came out in nineteen seventy four, computer games are pretty rudimentary, right, but like you know, by nineteen seventy five, there were already people adapting D and D four computers and pretty much any triple A game that you look at today. And these are games that make you know, billions of dollars, right, that has that DNA in it all. It owes back to that nineteen seventy four original set of rules in which you got to play a character, be a protagonist, adventure, get more powerful, and have a netpic quest.

When did when did it did it take off like immediately or was it a couple of years down the world? Because I saw one of the things that exploded it was satanism, witchcraft. Did the controversy explode.

When did when did it did it take off like immediately or was it a couple of years down the world? Because I saw one of the things that exploded it was satanism, witchcraft. Did the controversy explode.

It definitely it did, and I mean the controversy kind of built gradually. But look at it like this, this is a really small insular hobby. When it started, these guys at this company called Tactical Studies Rules that published D and D. Originally they originally printed like a thousand copies of this and they weren't going to sure they were going to sell those, right, And like it built a little bit, like by nineteen seventy six seventy seven, it penetrated into college campuses. It was becoming kind of an underground thing. But then just one of these historical accidents happened, which is in nineteen seventy nine, there was a kid who was in East Lansing, Michigan. He was a university student who disappeared. His name was James Dallas Egbert the third, And when he disappeared from his college campus, people deuilt this theory because they heard been playing this bizarre game called Dungeons and Dragons that he had come to believe the fantasy was real. That he had got on down into the steam tunnels beneath the university and was trying to like find orgs to killer something down there, got lost, trapped, diluted, possibly died, and this led to this huge mainstream press just sensationalless coverage that simultaneously demonized the game and made it immensely popular the way that like only a weird historical accident like that could.

It definitely it did, and I mean the controversy kind of built gradually. But look at it like this, this is a really small insular hobby. When it started, these guys at this company called Tactical Studies Rules that published D and D. Originally they originally printed like a thousand copies of this and they weren't going to sure they were going to sell those, right, And like it built a little bit, like by nineteen seventy six seventy seven, it penetrated into college campuses. It was becoming kind of an underground thing. But then just one of these historical accidents happened, which is in nineteen seventy nine, there was a kid who was in East Lansing, Michigan. He was a university student who disappeared. His name was James Dallas Egbert the third, And when he disappeared from his college campus, people deuilt this theory because they heard been playing this bizarre game called Dungeons and Dragons that he had come to believe the fantasy was real. That he had got on down into the steam tunnels beneath the university and was trying to like find orgs to killer something down there, got lost, trapped, diluted, possibly died, and this led to this huge mainstream press just sensationalless coverage that simultaneously demonized the game and made it immensely popular the way that like only a weird historical accident like that could.

So, John, I just want to go back, because again, please forgive me, I know so little about this if I'm asking.

So, John, I just want to go back, because again, please forgive me, I know so little about this if I'm asking.

Just banal, rudimentary questions.

Just banal, rudimentary questions.

But it sounds like somebody came up with, Okay, here's how we're gonna here's rules one through one hundred of how if you want to play this game that's played. But it sounds like that those rules are very much player generated in some ways as well, especially when I watch people play it. And I'll give you the goofy example, but it seems like I'm rubber, you're glue. Somebody goes, I'm rubber, your glue. Everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you, and the guy who it sticks to goes, yeah, but I cast a spell on me so things don't stick. They actually become animated and they attack your eyes. Oh yeah, well my eyes are protected by advisor that I won one. And you go, okay, well this is just I'm just just trading a horse bucky back and forth. I mean what a is the game grown by the players who then generate variations on how to do this, And if so, how does a group of gamers or a dungeon master keep that sort of playground version of conflict from happening.

But it sounds like somebody came up with, Okay, here's how we're gonna here's rules one through one hundred of how if you want to play this game that's played. But it sounds like that those rules are very much player generated in some ways as well, especially when I watch people play it. And I'll give you the goofy example, but it seems like I'm rubber, you're glue. Somebody goes, I'm rubber, your glue. Everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you, and the guy who it sticks to goes, yeah, but I cast a spell on me so things don't stick. They actually become animated and they attack your eyes. Oh yeah, well my eyes are protected by advisor that I won one. And you go, okay, well this is just I'm just just trading a horse bucky back and forth. I mean what a is the game grown by the players who then generate variations on how to do this, And if so, how does a group of gamers or a dungeon master keep that sort of playground version of conflict from happening.

Well, so you said the two keywords, they're dungeon master. So you need to think about a game of D and D like there are two classes of participants. There's a dungeon master and then there are players. And the dungeon master doesn't have like a character. The dungeon master's job is to play the world. And moreover, the dungeon master's job is to be the author already on what is true about the system and about what what you can and can't do. So a player says, I'm rubbing your glue, the dungeon master is the one who says, well, no, this is the army you're wearing, this is the equipment you have, and this orc stabs you and you are now dead, right, and so you need in these games, and in the computer version, of course, the computer plays this role for you. Right, you don't really have a dungeon master. The computer does the dungeon mastering, but like the you know, the crux of the game is that the players inhabit the characters, and the characters can attempt anything. This is a really crucial thing about it. Like anything you could describe as a possible action, you can propose it as what your character does, and it's then up to the dungeon master to tell you what the result of doing that will be, whether it's it's what you intended, whether it's something you didn't intent. You're like, Okay, I'm going to cast a grease spell. And my hope in casting this grease spell in this room is that every orc is You're going to be on slippery ground and they're all going to fall down, and like this is going to work and it's going to be great. The dungeon master says, fantastic. But you forgot that there are these fires on the side of the room, and in fact, you and the orcs and everybody you know is now in this immense conflagation, right, so somebody keeps track of the state of the world, and you know, the players merely have the power to state their intentions. The dungeon master has the power to say what happened?

Well, so you said the two keywords, they're dungeon master. So you need to think about a game of D and D like there are two classes of participants. There's a dungeon master and then there are players. And the dungeon master doesn't have like a character. The dungeon master's job is to play the world. And moreover, the dungeon master's job is to be the author already on what is true about the system and about what what you can and can't do. So a player says, I'm rubbing your glue, the dungeon master is the one who says, well, no, this is the army you're wearing, this is the equipment you have, and this orc stabs you and you are now dead, right, and so you need in these games, and in the computer version, of course, the computer plays this role for you. Right, you don't really have a dungeon master. The computer does the dungeon mastering, but like the you know, the crux of the game is that the players inhabit the characters, and the characters can attempt anything. This is a really crucial thing about it. Like anything you could describe as a possible action, you can propose it as what your character does, and it's then up to the dungeon master to tell you what the result of doing that will be, whether it's it's what you intended, whether it's something you didn't intent. You're like, Okay, I'm going to cast a grease spell. And my hope in casting this grease spell in this room is that every orc is You're going to be on slippery ground and they're all going to fall down, and like this is going to work and it's going to be great. The dungeon master says, fantastic. But you forgot that there are these fires on the side of the room, and in fact, you and the orcs and everybody you know is now in this immense conflagation, right, so somebody keeps track of the state of the world, and you know, the players merely have the power to state their intentions. The dungeon master has the power to say what happened?

Whose world are they looking at as a guide?

Whose world are they looking at as a guide?

Well, so the dungeon master job is also to describe the world. Think about this way, you know, they're kind of sounding boards. The dungeon master and the player are at the start of the game. The dungeon master says, this is the situation. So, Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the two of you see in front of you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table, and the map is laid out before him. What do you do? Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the two of you see in front of you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table, and the map is laid out before him. What do you do? This is the classic, you know, way that a situation might start, right and in response to what do you do? Then, Jason, what do you do? You saw that figure? You don't need to know anything more about this game than what I've told you right now. You guys, walk into the tavern. You see that shadowy figure at the map there, he's got some gold coins on it.

Well, so the dungeon master job is also to describe the world. Think about this way, you know, they're kind of sounding boards. The dungeon master and the player are at the start of the game. The dungeon master says, this is the situation. So, Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the two of you see in front of you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table, and the map is laid out before him. What do you do? Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the two of you see in front of you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table, and the map is laid out before him. What do you do? This is the classic, you know, way that a situation might start, right and in response to what do you do? Then, Jason, what do you do? You saw that figure? You don't need to know anything more about this game than what I've told you right now. You guys, walk into the tavern. You see that shadowy figure at the map there, he's got some gold coins on it.

What do you do?

What do you do?

And I would say, I go over and ask the stranger what he's looking at, and may I look.

And I would say, I go over and ask the stranger what he's looking at, and may I look.

As well precisely and we just continue from there. He tells you this is a map, and you know. He then says, if you're so interested, like I personally can't go there because it's like super dangerous, but perhaps the two of you would like to adventure there where. I understand that there's a mountain of these coins available, and there may be some sort of guardian or curse or something like that. But I'm sure the two of you can work that out once you look into it. Here's where the places in the map.

As well precisely and we just continue from there. He tells you this is a map, and you know. He then says, if you're so interested, like I personally can't go there because it's like super dangerous, but perhaps the two of you would like to adventure there where. I understand that there's a mountain of these coins available, and there may be some sort of guardian or curse or something like that. But I'm sure the two of you can work that out once you look into it. Here's where the places in the map.

Go for it, John, But what okay? As soon as you said that it's fascinating sitting there with the map and some gold coins, what's my goal? What's my motivation? You know? When I said to David Gringham, we're going to bring him in a second, because he does play this and he is somewhat expert at it. If I don't know what my motivation is and there's no winning and there's no I'm just getting points, why would I engage If I don't know what direction where I want to end up? How would I know where questions to ask or where to go? You know, I may say back, I want to watch other people interact with him first and see if he's a threat. I don't know what I'm doing because I don't know enough about what I'm trying to accomplish.

Go for it, John, But what okay? As soon as you said that it's fascinating sitting there with the map and some gold coins, what's my goal? What's my motivation? You know? When I said to David Gringham, we're going to bring him in a second, because he does play this and he is somewhat expert at it. If I don't know what my motivation is and there's no winning and there's no I'm just getting points, why would I engage If I don't know what direction where I want to end up? How would I know where questions to ask or where to go? You know, I may say back, I want to watch other people interact with him first and see if he's a threat. I don't know what I'm doing because I don't know enough about what I'm trying to accomplish.

Well, I'd be very wise for actually to sit back and watch and figure out what's up with this guy before you go up and incredulously believe his story. But you did mention, you know, yeah, your job in a game like this, the obvious goal is just to gain more power. The obvious goal is to gain more treasure, gain more power, advance, And the way to advance is to adventure, and through adventuring you gain what are called experience points, and if you gain certain experience points thresholds for your character, you advance in level. And this concept, by the way, has become a kind of influential one, like it's hard to play a computer game that does not have some element of that in it, right where through the more you apply kind of the better you prove. And this, you know, experience and power then makes you ready for you know, even greater adventurers to tackle even greater adversaries. So that's the ostensible goal.

Well, I'd be very wise for actually to sit back and watch and figure out what's up with this guy before you go up and incredulously believe his story. But you did mention, you know, yeah, your job in a game like this, the obvious goal is just to gain more power. The obvious goal is to gain more treasure, gain more power, advance, And the way to advance is to adventure, and through adventuring you gain what are called experience points, and if you gain certain experience points thresholds for your character, you advance in level. And this concept, by the way, has become a kind of influential one, like it's hard to play a computer game that does not have some element of that in it, right where through the more you apply kind of the better you prove. And this, you know, experience and power then makes you ready for you know, even greater adventurers to tackle even greater adversaries. So that's the ostensible goal.

Of the game.

Of the game.

I'm curious to not knowing details. But I want to bring David in the second. All of a sudden, I look at trigger warnings and stuff. This is a game that was if you look at the culture fifty years ago and think about what it was and how people spoke. Has the game dramatically changed to take that into acknowledgement.

I'm curious to not knowing details. But I want to bring David in the second. All of a sudden, I look at trigger warnings and stuff. This is a game that was if you look at the culture fifty years ago and think about what it was and how people spoke. Has the game dramatically changed to take that into acknowledgement.

Yes, So in those fifty years there have been five major editions of the game, and in each one you can see kind of a you know, more and more inclusivity, more and more roles for women. The original game had very little as roles for women. It assumed sword and sorcery heroes of the stamp of Conan or the kind of you know, heroes you see in Tolkien right where you know, this is very much a male dominated, male centric world, like that started to e road, but you were mentioning the Satanic elements. That's another good example. Like there was a whole backlash against the game for its opposed satanic content, and so they took out for a time the words demon and devil, other words that were viewed as being offensive potentially to fundamentalist Christians. Those were later restored when that particular cultural issue was no longer the most important one on people's minds. But if you look at the game today, yes, I mean Wizards of the Coast, who is the current publisher of the game, has made the game far more inclusive in terms of what roles are available to people of different races, different ability, different gender. And you know this, I think every generation has really reinvented D and D for itself, Right.

Yes, So in those fifty years there have been five major editions of the game, and in each one you can see kind of a you know, more and more inclusivity, more and more roles for women. The original game had very little as roles for women. It assumed sword and sorcery heroes of the stamp of Conan or the kind of you know, heroes you see in Tolkien right where you know, this is very much a male dominated, male centric world, like that started to e road, but you were mentioning the Satanic elements. That's another good example. Like there was a whole backlash against the game for its opposed satanic content, and so they took out for a time the words demon and devil, other words that were viewed as being offensive potentially to fundamentalist Christians. Those were later restored when that particular cultural issue was no longer the most important one on people's minds. But if you look at the game today, yes, I mean Wizards of the Coast, who is the current publisher of the game, has made the game far more inclusive in terms of what roles are available to people of different races, different ability, different gender. And you know this, I think every generation has really reinvented D and D for itself, Right.

John, I guess I should be asking my own child.

John, I guess I should be asking my own child.

But my son, Gabe often serves as a dungeon master. Should I therefore assume he has done a bunch of the reading and understood what the current parameters and guidelines are, or just would it not be unusual for five people to sit down and somebody going I'll be the dungeon master and not know what the hell he's talking about. But he's a creative guy and he goes yes to this, no to that.

But my son, Gabe often serves as a dungeon master. Should I therefore assume he has done a bunch of the reading and understood what the current parameters and guidelines are, or just would it not be unusual for five people to sit down and somebody going I'll be the dungeon master and not know what the hell he's talking about. But he's a creative guy and he goes yes to this, no to that.

I mean, how does that happ So?

I mean, how does that happ So?

Yeah? In short, probably, if he is successful, that is, if people come back and play with him again, he probably has some chops. He probably has at least enough understanding of the system that people feel like they're playing the game when they're playing with them. But it's also important understand it is a game that takes place in the dialogue, and like I said, really what the players mostly experience is that tavern scene I was describing for you, right, the dice come out when there's some kind of conflict that you know, you then want to consult tables. Well, what does it take to if I want to stab that guy in the back and surprise him. That'll be a diar roll, right, and then you need to go consult the right tables for that to figure out what happens. But you know, those are more exception cases, really, I think, than that pure conversation where the players again just kind of say what it is they want to try to do, and you know, a lot of things players suggest the system has no way to adjudicate. This has been true from the very start. It's also true today playing as you know, being a dungeon master, you need to be able to improvise when people propose they want to do something and the rules have no way of adjudicating it, or you don't feel like going and looking it up, you'll wing it and it works. I mean, it's one of the miraculous weird things about I don't know why it works. And I study this thing, right, But it just as long as players have that feeling that the dungeon master is making a considered decision about the world, then it works. You almost don't even know what or how that decision is.

Yeah? In short, probably, if he is successful, that is, if people come back and play with him again, he probably has some chops. He probably has at least enough understanding of the system that people feel like they're playing the game when they're playing with them. But it's also important understand it is a game that takes place in the dialogue, and like I said, really what the players mostly experience is that tavern scene I was describing for you, right, the dice come out when there's some kind of conflict that you know, you then want to consult tables. Well, what does it take to if I want to stab that guy in the back and surprise him. That'll be a diar roll, right, and then you need to go consult the right tables for that to figure out what happens. But you know, those are more exception cases, really, I think, than that pure conversation where the players again just kind of say what it is they want to try to do, and you know, a lot of things players suggest the system has no way to adjudicate. This has been true from the very start. It's also true today playing as you know, being a dungeon master, you need to be able to improvise when people propose they want to do something and the rules have no way of adjudicating it, or you don't feel like going and looking it up, you'll wing it and it works. I mean, it's one of the miraculous weird things about I don't know why it works. And I study this thing, right, But it just as long as players have that feeling that the dungeon master is making a considered decision about the world, then it works. You almost don't even know what or how that decision is.

So you know what, John, let's say, let's welcome our favorite everybody everybody's favorite dungeon master, David Guggenheim.

So you know what, John, let's say, let's welcome our favorite everybody everybody's favorite dungeon master, David Guggenheim.

Who plays this every is this every Friday? This is way you go every Friday, right.

Who plays this every is this every Friday? This is way you go every Friday, right.

Every Friday, every Friday?

Every Friday, every Friday?

And Dren, how long is an average session?

And Dren, how long is an average session?

I would say three to four hours?

I would say three to four hours?

Huh?

Huh?

Okay, are you enjoying this, David? This is your episode, my friend. You've got the guy on the expert. Anything you want to ask him to make your game enhancesd.

Okay, are you enjoying this, David? This is your episode, my friend. You've got the guy on the expert. Anything you want to ask him to make your game enhancesd.

No, I want to be a prey instantly, because in the twenty twenty four edition of five E, your grease is no longer flammable.

No, I want to be a prey instantly, because in the twenty twenty four edition of five E, your grease is no longer flammable.

Man over again.

Man over again.

Thanks for tuning in everybody night. You're just gonna want the microphones run and we'll be back next week, just differently.

Thanks for tuning in everybody night. You're just gonna want the microphones run and we'll be back next week, just differently.

My god, what the hell that book is even out yet? That you have one?

My god, what the hell that book is even out yet? That you have one?

And the right right, I know, here's.

And the right right, I know, here's.

A question I just must say. I'm looking at David differently because if he knows them, yes, so for.

A question I just must say. I'm looking at David differently because if he knows them, yes, so for.

Both of you, what what do you find?

Both of you, what what do you find?

What makes how do I say this, what makes somebody so attracted to this game and so good in it?

What makes how do I say this, what makes somebody so attracted to this game and so good in it?

Is?

Is?

Is it only really work for people who can abandon themselves to their imagination and get into this role of playing stuff? What what kind of people does it appeal to? And what kind of people does it not appeal to?

Is it only really work for people who can abandon themselves to their imagination and get into this role of playing stuff? What what kind of people does it appeal to? And what kind of people does it not appeal to?

David, I mean, well, yeah, no, I actually have an answer to that, and and and John correct me if you think I'm wrong.

David, I mean, well, yeah, no, I actually have an answer to that, and and and John correct me if you think I'm wrong.

And that's I think links back to what you were saying. Peter.

And that's I think links back to what you were saying. Peter.

Uh.

Uh.

You know, this was a game that was created in seventy four and there's been a lot the changes now and this is something that wasn't in the twenty fourteen the current book until the new books come out very soon. A session zero where everybody who is going to play the game gets together and they're going to talk about the things that are going to be part of the game. That there will be like hey, there might be something that might be triggering or upsetting, and players would be able to say, you know what, I'd rather you not do that because that would take me to an unpleasant place, and the dungeon master would either say this is not the game for you, or the dungeon master, and I think this is probably more common, will alter the game for the people who are in the room or find a happy middle ground to make sure that it is fun, it is inclusive, and everybody.

You know, this was a game that was created in seventy four and there's been a lot the changes now and this is something that wasn't in the twenty fourteen the current book until the new books come out very soon. A session zero where everybody who is going to play the game gets together and they're going to talk about the things that are going to be part of the game. That there will be like hey, there might be something that might be triggering or upsetting, and players would be able to say, you know what, I'd rather you not do that because that would take me to an unpleasant place, and the dungeon master would either say this is not the game for you, or the dungeon master, and I think this is probably more common, will alter the game for the people who are in the room or find a happy middle ground to make sure that it is fun, it is inclusive, and everybody.

Feels like they're part of something together.

Feels like they're part of something together.

Interesting telling you up leveling that a bit. I think what makes this game still appeal to us so much after so much so long has passed is that it is artisanal and really every group that gets to sit around the table gets to make their own story, right, and it's a story only they have to like, like it might not appeal to anybody else in the world. You get a group to sit around the table, each of them kind of has their creative input into it, and they get to have this custom experience just for them, and like that power, that creative power, and is something I think people, especially in our very digital age, like tap into and it's part of what's made the game so vital in the last ten years especially, is.

Interesting telling you up leveling that a bit. I think what makes this game still appeal to us so much after so much so long has passed is that it is artisanal and really every group that gets to sit around the table gets to make their own story, right, and it's a story only they have to like, like it might not appeal to anybody else in the world. You get a group to sit around the table, each of them kind of has their creative input into it, and they get to have this custom experience just for them, and like that power, that creative power, and is something I think people, especially in our very digital age, like tap into and it's part of what's made the game so vital in the last ten years especially, is.

Part of John is part of this and I hate to use this word, but I can't figure out the synonym for it. That is as effective. Is part of that that nerds really do rule the list one of years. If you look in the entertainment business Marvel, Look how big Marvel is, Look how big superhero movies are, Look how big comic book movies are. So this kind of makes sense that they would navigate this kind of thing because they want to be challenged.

Part of John is part of this and I hate to use this word, but I can't figure out the synonym for it. That is as effective. Is part of that that nerds really do rule the list one of years. If you look in the entertainment business Marvel, Look how big Marvel is, Look how big superhero movies are, Look how big comic book movies are. So this kind of makes sense that they would navigate this kind of thing because they want to be challenged.

They would. And you know the fact that now with the Internet you can watch people play this game. You can watch these ten pole shows like Critical Role, where you know, very competent, funny, attractive people sit around and play the game. This is thing that has certainly inspired so many kids and the demographics of this. This is not old fogies who are the super fans of this at this point. This is a very young audience that has become attached to D and D and a big part of that, Yeah, they grew up with Game of Thrones, they grew up with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings adaptations. Fantasy is familiar to them in a way that it has not been for previous generations, Right, and John.

They would. And you know the fact that now with the Internet you can watch people play this game. You can watch these ten pole shows like Critical Role, where you know, very competent, funny, attractive people sit around and play the game. This is thing that has certainly inspired so many kids and the demographics of this. This is not old fogies who are the super fans of this at this point. This is a very young audience that has become attached to D and D and a big part of that, Yeah, they grew up with Game of Thrones, they grew up with the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings adaptations. Fantasy is familiar to them in a way that it has not been for previous generations, Right, and John.

Is it based on what you're saying, I would imagine unlike Clue where somebody goes no, Yeah, it comes sit down, you're you're professor Plumb. I can't, like if I'm visiting a friend in Ohio, I can't just sit in on their D and D session and job in like it's I come a part of the It sounds like the groups become sort of singular and it would be tricky to integrate a new player or a temporary player.

Is it based on what you're saying, I would imagine unlike Clue where somebody goes no, Yeah, it comes sit down, you're you're professor Plumb. I can't, like if I'm visiting a friend in Ohio, I can't just sit in on their D and D session and job in like it's I come a part of the It sounds like the groups become sort of singular and it would be tricky to integrate a new player or a temporary player.

Not not really, I mean it happens quite a bit. I've jumped into countless ongoing campeens as they call them, right where you know they'll just to sit in for a session for two and you know it requires maybe a little sleight of hand on the part of the dungeon masters to explain who this new person is and why you suddenly trust them. But it's definitely true that the best and the most emotionally satisfying games are ones where you do have, you know, a type group that kind of takes it from beginning to end, and those emotional journeys you experienced playing game like this, they stay with you and they're.

Not not really, I mean it happens quite a bit. I've jumped into countless ongoing campeens as they call them, right where you know they'll just to sit in for a session for two and you know it requires maybe a little sleight of hand on the part of the dungeon masters to explain who this new person is and why you suddenly trust them. But it's definitely true that the best and the most emotionally satisfying games are ones where you do have, you know, a type group that kind of takes it from beginning to end, and those emotional journeys you experienced playing game like this, they stay with you and they're.

One of the things that intrigued me about this when we were thinking about doing an episode was I had read that there were prisoners not only on death row, but prisoners that have been in solitary for extended periods of time, and part of their sanity is they find ways to play the game through.

One of the things that intrigued me about this when we were thinking about doing an episode was I had read that there were prisoners not only on death row, but prisoners that have been in solitary for extended periods of time, and part of their sanity is they find ways to play the game through.

Messages that are passed back and forth.

Messages that are passed back and forth.

And I was reading this in the in the Sunday New York Times magazine about them a year ago, these very intricate games, and you know, you're talking about communities of these games. I would imagine that that is incredibly therapeutic. And well, I mean, in some ways, I'm wondering if playing a game like this in that kind of environment can actually evoke a change in the people that play it for some sort of societal good or their own personal growth.

And I was reading this in the in the Sunday New York Times magazine about them a year ago, these very intricate games, and you know, you're talking about communities of these games. I would imagine that that is incredibly therapeutic. And well, I mean, in some ways, I'm wondering if playing a game like this in that kind of environment can actually evoke a change in the people that play it for some sort of societal good or their own personal growth.

No, I mean, I think I remember the same article, and I'm familiar with a few other similar cases that people who really feel like D and D is what gave them a connection to a community when they were incarcerated, that they found their people and found some stability and a world that made sense to them in this horrible environment. Right. So there's academic research as well about this that you know, need to get into here. But like, you know, whatever it is about the game, you know, I'll say this, a lot of people charge it with being escapist. That you play this so you can kind of play a superhero, right, I may not be very successful in real life, but I'm going to go on and be this, you know, Garth Act the Invincible. You know, I guess my perspective on that is that there's no escape. Like all of our we're all real, and our experiences are inescapably real, and the experience of playing Garth Act the Invincible is not the same experience as being Garth Act the Invincible, and so it's a transformational experience. I mean, there was an early reviewer in around nineteen seventy nine, one of the first mainstream reviewers who looked at D and D you remark that, you know it may turn out to be one of the most exciting discoveries of your life when you start playing it.

No, I mean, I think I remember the same article, and I'm familiar with a few other similar cases that people who really feel like D and D is what gave them a connection to a community when they were incarcerated, that they found their people and found some stability and a world that made sense to them in this horrible environment. Right. So there's academic research as well about this that you know, need to get into here. But like, you know, whatever it is about the game, you know, I'll say this, a lot of people charge it with being escapist. That you play this so you can kind of play a superhero, right, I may not be very successful in real life, but I'm going to go on and be this, you know, Garth Act the Invincible. You know, I guess my perspective on that is that there's no escape. Like all of our we're all real, and our experiences are inescapably real, and the experience of playing Garth Act the Invincible is not the same experience as being Garth Act the Invincible, and so it's a transformational experience. I mean, there was an early reviewer in around nineteen seventy nine, one of the first mainstream reviewers who looked at D and D you remark that, you know it may turn out to be one of the most exciting discoveries of your life when you start playing it.

To Mivigant, just want to just want to say, Peter's out straggling for me.

To Mivigant, just want to just want to say, Peter's out straggling for me.

You know, the.

You know, the.

Point of this is not to be the best. The point of this is to have these experiences that you would never have in real life, and to be able to explore parts of yourself and parts of reality that you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience.

Point of this is not to be the best. The point of this is to have these experiences that you would never have in real life, and to be able to explore parts of yourself and parts of reality that you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience.

So John two things.

So John two things.

If someone wanted to either get a better understanding of the game or try to find a way to jump into the experience of doing it.

If someone wanted to either get a better understanding of the game or try to find a way to jump into the experience of doing it.

And you can touch your own book if you like.

And you can touch your own book if you like.

What's a good place to sort of get a better understanding of it and or begin an involvement. And the second part of that question is, since it's the fiftieth anniversary, if you could snap your fingers and imagine fifty years from now, how would you love to see the game evolve?

What's a good place to sort of get a better understanding of it and or begin an involvement. And the second part of that question is, since it's the fiftieth anniversary, if you could snap your fingers and imagine fifty years from now, how would you love to see the game evolve?

So the second one's a tougher one. I'll go to the first one first. So in many towns they have what we call friendly local gaming stores, which are places you can find actual human beings so you can play with in person. A lot of them are looking for additional players for their campaigns, be more than happy to accommodate you and whatever your bizarre interests are that you want to add to their ongoing efforts online as well. I mean, if you just want to get started, of course, going and buying some books about this, you know, the core source books would be a good idea. As David mentioned, there's a major revision of them underway, like right now, and so there's going to be new editions of this coming out between now and I think March of next year, that they'd be a good place to start. But also just going to YouTube, like I said, or going to Twitch and finding an interesting group of people who are playing the game, telling stories, watching it, watch a campaign for at least a few episodes of it, get a sense of what it is, and I think you'll you'll figure out pretty quick whether it's for you or not.

So the second one's a tougher one. I'll go to the first one first. So in many towns they have what we call friendly local gaming stores, which are places you can find actual human beings so you can play with in person. A lot of them are looking for additional players for their campaigns, be more than happy to accommodate you and whatever your bizarre interests are that you want to add to their ongoing efforts online as well. I mean, if you just want to get started, of course, going and buying some books about this, you know, the core source books would be a good idea. As David mentioned, there's a major revision of them underway, like right now, and so there's going to be new editions of this coming out between now and I think March of next year, that they'd be a good place to start. But also just going to YouTube, like I said, or going to Twitch and finding an interesting group of people who are playing the game, telling stories, watching it, watch a campaign for at least a few episodes of it, get a sense of what it is, and I think you'll you'll figure out pretty quick whether it's for you or not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool, And the second part, Yeah, any fantasies about what this could become or what you would enjoy seeing another evolution go.

Cool, And the second part, Yeah, any fantasies about what this could become or what you would enjoy seeing another evolution go.

I mean, I think it's inevitable at this point that AI is going to play a huge part in how this game is going to evolve for the next decade, right, And you know, I think there are a lot of ways that AI could help make the traditional experience a richer one, just doing the math for you and keeping track of how many goblins you killed, things like that. These are kinds of things that AI can do without taking over the game for you. But let's face it, like there's going to be augmented reality versions of this that are going to have AI elements to them that are going to be like really bizarre, and I would love to play in those experiences. We'll have those in twenty years, in fifty years, we'll all be little brains in jars right like the Singularity will have happened. They'll be using us as batteries like in the Matrix, you know, and so I you know, when we're all on the Matrix, I'm sure we'll have some amazing.

I mean, I think it's inevitable at this point that AI is going to play a huge part in how this game is going to evolve for the next decade, right, And you know, I think there are a lot of ways that AI could help make the traditional experience a richer one, just doing the math for you and keeping track of how many goblins you killed, things like that. These are kinds of things that AI can do without taking over the game for you. But let's face it, like there's going to be augmented reality versions of this that are going to have AI elements to them that are going to be like really bizarre, and I would love to play in those experiences. We'll have those in twenty years, in fifty years, we'll all be little brains in jars right like the Singularity will have happened. They'll be using us as batteries like in the Matrix, you know, and so I you know, when we're all on the Matrix, I'm sure we'll have some amazing.

Amazing I'll see you then Matrix.

Amazing I'll see you then Matrix.

Wait, I can't Jean, thank you so much for coming on and putting up with our stuff.

Wait, I can't Jean, thank you so much for coming on and putting up with our stuff.

And John, honestly, you know, we came into this going I don't know what this is. You've actually made it sound like an, if nothing else, a ton of fun and I can see why why people would get into this. It sounds like a really fun way to do what I get to do for a living sometimes, which is going, oh yeah, well what if I was this or what if these were my circumstances.

And John, honestly, you know, we came into this going I don't know what this is. You've actually made it sound like an, if nothing else, a ton of fun and I can see why why people would get into this. It sounds like a really fun way to do what I get to do for a living sometimes, which is going, oh yeah, well what if I was this or what if these were my circumstances.

So to create friendships with people in a way it's not linear we're going drinking at a bar and just hanging out. It's actually your participating in your improving and it's communal, you know, and and people are back again. It's a nice thing that people get out and play together, So thank you.

So to create friendships with people in a way it's not linear we're going drinking at a bar and just hanging out. It's actually your participating in your improving and it's communal, you know, and and people are back again. It's a nice thing that people get out and play together, So thank you.

I mean a lot of people play with their kids. You might want to try that.

I mean a lot of people play with their kids. You might want to try that.

Not doing that, To do a six hundred page book is a major accomplishment, especially in a world when I'm sure when you're on these shows, everyone I've seen you on knows all of the stuff, so they would call you and things if you got it wrong. So congratulations on not getting it's the wrong.

Not doing that, To do a six hundred page book is a major accomplishment, especially in a world when I'm sure when you're on these shows, everyone I've seen you on knows all of the stuff, so they would call you and things if you got it wrong. So congratulations on not getting it's the wrong.

I mean, apparently the grease spell thing is fun. Thanks so much for having me pleasure.

I mean, apparently the grease spell thing is fun. Thanks so much for having me pleasure.

Thank you?

Thank you?

So David, did that warm the cockles of your heart? Was that like a major thing? Listen does make a gift? This is a lout of a Christmas present, right it is?

So David, did that warm the cockles of your heart? Was that like a major thing? Listen does make a gift? This is a lout of a Christmas present, right it is?

You know here there is another belt coming your way.

You know here there is another belt coming your way.

I'd lack a dragon on it, maybe some flame. One of the things that.

I'd lack a dragon on it, maybe some flame. One of the things that.

You hear most often if you're into the game is you run into people who don't understand the game, who like there's no winning, there's role playing that's sort of weird.

You hear most often if you're into the game is you run into people who don't understand the game, who like there's no winning, there's role playing that's sort of weird.

What's a dungeon master?

What's a dungeon master?

That sounds somewhat sinister and sexual in some sort of way. So I do like to evangelize to allow people to know that there is this game that is really more of a framework for people to come together, to have fun and to interact in ways that you normally couldn't. And I think while there isn't per se winning, there is feelings of accomplishment when you've taken down a dragon.

That sounds somewhat sinister and sexual in some sort of way. So I do like to evangelize to allow people to know that there is this game that is really more of a framework for people to come together, to have fun and to interact in ways that you normally couldn't. And I think while there isn't per se winning, there is feelings of accomplishment when you've taken down a dragon.

So wait a minute, you eat pizza. I know it's Friday night.

So wait a minute, you eat pizza. I know it's Friday night.

If you're driving home at eleven thirty, Yeah, you get a couple miles worth of kind of killed the dragon.

If you're driving home at eleven thirty, Yeah, you get a couple miles worth of kind of killed the dragon.

And it was a good night. It feels real, right.

And it was a good night. It feels real, right.

It does feel good because you have some really sort of cool moments. And it's here's the thing, and Jason, I this hearkens back to I think what you were originally saying. And this is actually how I got into it. My son would do some stretches late at night, and while he's in his bed and I'm doing these stretches on him, and his sister was across the way. They would play this little game much like you were saying, yeah, right, oh, I do cast ice on you, and I froze you, and then I'm doing and my son basically always figured out a way to win, and she would end up crying and it made and I had never played D and D.

It does feel good because you have some really sort of cool moments. And it's here's the thing, and Jason, I this hearkens back to I think what you were originally saying. And this is actually how I got into it. My son would do some stretches late at night, and while he's in his bed and I'm doing these stretches on him, and his sister was across the way. They would play this little game much like you were saying, yeah, right, oh, I do cast ice on you, and I froze you, and then I'm doing and my son basically always figured out a way to win, and she would end up crying and it made and I had never played D and D.

This is how I actually got got.

This is how I actually got got.

Into it, and I'm like, oh, so D and D is a way to introduce a rule set. My spell can do this, there's turns while also maintaining the creativity. You if you think of something more creative than the other guy, you might not need a spell, or you might not need a big sword or something like that. So it's dealing with creativity and a rule set that fairness and fun.

Into it, and I'm like, oh, so D and D is a way to introduce a rule set. My spell can do this, there's turns while also maintaining the creativity. You if you think of something more creative than the other guy, you might not need a spell, or you might not need a big sword or something like that. So it's dealing with creativity and a rule set that fairness and fun.

So there you.

So there you.

Go, Producer Laurie, Now that you've seen this and you've heard about it, Jason, what do you what do you guess on a scale of one to ten, how apt Producer Laurie is to now get involved in a Dungeons and Dragons game?

Go, Producer Laurie, Now that you've seen this and you've heard about it, Jason, what do you what do you guess on a scale of one to ten, how apt Producer Laurie is to now get involved in a Dungeons and Dragons game?

Zero to ten? What do you think?

Zero to ten? What do you think?

Are we are there negative numbers?

Are we are there negative numbers?

I was just gonna say, I was going to check you with a minus seven, Lauri? Are we correct on a scale of minus five to ten? How after you now, if you've heard of the origins, how wonderful it is the group commitment, how you can grow, how you can be an orc there thing? What is your sense of the number in your head? As far as that you'll ever play this invited tonight to an introductory game.

I was just gonna say, I was going to check you with a minus seven, Lauri? Are we correct on a scale of minus five to ten? How after you now, if you've heard of the origins, how wonderful it is the group commitment, how you can grow, how you can be an orc there thing? What is your sense of the number in your head? As far as that you'll ever play this invited tonight to an introductory game.

I don't know what to say.

I don't know what to say.

I have to say it makes no difference in any way whatever it is I'm against.