Really now, really, really.

Really now, really, really.

Now, really, Hello and welcome to this episode of Really No Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. In today's episode, Jason and Peter explore forgiveness with a five time Nobel Peace Prize nominee and author of the first scientific study on person to person forgiveness. We'll also find out about the practice of unconditional forgiveness, how the legal system deals with forgiveness, and the scientific reason we blame people, plus Jason's mother's non scientific reason for blaming people, and now God forgive me.

Now, really, Hello and welcome to this episode of Really No Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. In today's episode, Jason and Peter explore forgiveness with a five time Nobel Peace Prize nominee and author of the first scientific study on person to person forgiveness. We'll also find out about the practice of unconditional forgiveness, how the legal system deals with forgiveness, and the scientific reason we blame people, plus Jason's mother's non scientific reason for blaming people, and now God forgive me.

Here they are Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden.

Here they are Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden.

Well, here we are, everybody. It's already been a day. We have a children's show filming outside the studio. They're not supposed to be here.

Well, here we are, everybody. It's already been a day. We have a children's show filming outside the studio. They're not supposed to be here.

By the way, But you know what, let it go. Let it go.

By the way, But you know what, let it go. Let it go.

Yeah, okay, it's very hard for me to let it go. I know people have trouble letting things go.

Yeah, okay, it's very hard for me to let it go. I know people have trouble letting things go.

Some do and some don't. No, most do. Trust me, I'm pretty good. We'll talk about this after we talked to the guests.

Some do and some don't. No, most do. Trust me, I'm pretty good. We'll talk about this after we talked to the guests.

All right, So here's our really for the day, everybody. This was a little thing that I read I came, I came across online and I went, really, so, apparently Bennettict Donald. You've heard of ben Atic Donald, Right, we've all heard of bennettic Donald. What did he really do? What was his big mistake? Christ faux Pas trader? That seems like a little bit of a you know, he gave he gave.

All right, So here's our really for the day, everybody. This was a little thing that I read I came, I came across online and I went, really, so, apparently Bennettict Donald. You've heard of ben Atic Donald, Right, we've all heard of bennettic Donald. What did he really do? What was his big mistake? Christ faux Pas trader? That seems like a little bit of a you know, he gave he gave.

Information to the British gave Yeah.

Information to the British gave Yeah.

He sold He sold out information to the British troops in seventeen eighty one, who then raided the British troops raided and burned the city of New London, Connecticut. Now I will I'm gonna spoiler. New London, Connecticut still exists to this very day. So it wasn't. It wasn't the end of the story of New London, Connecticut. But New London, Connecticut, for the last two hundred and forty two years, every year has a parade and a celebration where they burn an effigy the trader Benedict Arnold. Two hundred and forty two years later, they get out None of these people were alive then, none of these people probably even have ancestors that they can trace to this incident. But they get out there and they burn this guy in effigy year after year after year.

He sold He sold out information to the British troops in seventeen eighty one, who then raided the British troops raided and burned the city of New London, Connecticut. Now I will I'm gonna spoiler. New London, Connecticut still exists to this very day. So it wasn't. It wasn't the end of the story of New London, Connecticut. But New London, Connecticut, for the last two hundred and forty two years, every year has a parade and a celebration where they burn an effigy the trader Benedict Arnold. Two hundred and forty two years later, they get out None of these people were alive then, none of these people probably even have ancestors that they can trace to this incident. But they get out there and they burn this guy in effigy year after year after year.

So Jason mentions this to me and says, we should do an episode on forgiveness because these people are they're hard, they're holding on.

So Jason mentions this to me and says, we should do an episode on forgiveness because these people are they're hard, they're holding on.

This is a whole hundred and forty two years.

This is a whole hundred and forty two years.

So we were lucky to get Professor Robert enright on. This professor is called a game changer in modern psychology by the American Psychological Foundation. He holds in and I hope I say it right and correct me if I'm wrong. Aristotleian Professorship. Did I get it right?

So we were lucky to get Professor Robert enright on. This professor is called a game changer in modern psychology by the American Psychological Foundation. He holds in and I hope I say it right and correct me if I'm wrong. Aristotleian Professorship. Did I get it right?

Aristotlian, Aristotelean, you just had to hit all the teas aristotle Alean Professorship in Forgiveness Science at the UW.

Aristotlian, Aristotelean, you just had to hit all the teas aristotle Alean Professorship in Forgiveness Science at the UW.

Madison School of Education's Department of Educational Psychology. He's also a five times Nobel HEAs Prize nominee, winner of the twenty twenty two American Psychological Foundations Gold Medal Award for the Impact in Psychology, and on and on and on. When it comes to the field of forgiveness, I try and find us guess this is the guy who are the guy? And this would be the guy. And we're so happy he's on, especially today, Oh boy, because we started with a lot of stuff. He's got tips and I had to almost talk to then it was it was, it was a little bit Harry this morning. Thank you so much for coming.

Madison School of Education's Department of Educational Psychology. He's also a five times Nobel HEAs Prize nominee, winner of the twenty twenty two American Psychological Foundations Gold Medal Award for the Impact in Psychology, and on and on and on. When it comes to the field of forgiveness, I try and find us guess this is the guy who are the guy? And this would be the guy. And we're so happy he's on, especially today, Oh boy, because we started with a lot of stuff. He's got tips and I had to almost talk to then it was it was, it was a little bit Harry this morning. Thank you so much for coming.

On under doctor Robert Enright. Welcome to really know, really.

On under doctor Robert Enright. Welcome to really know, really.

Well, thank you very much for having me, Peter and Jason. I appreciate it.

Well, thank you very much for having me, Peter and Jason. I appreciate it.

So right away, Jay, you should ask him forgiveness for what we may do. Yeah, really can we can? We can we have preventative forgiveness? Can we have it ahead of time? As they thoughts? What do they call it prophilactic? Any prople actively or an anticipation of it? And the other thing I got to ask you because we don't know you yet, but you seem like an honest fellow who's gone deep on forgiveness. There's more about forgiveness than anything. Really, five nominations for Nobel Peace Prize and you haven't gone it yet. You gotta be a grudge. You have to be someone that we're holding something outside rightbody a minute.

So right away, Jay, you should ask him forgiveness for what we may do. Yeah, really can we can? We can we have preventative forgiveness? Can we have it ahead of time? As they thoughts? What do they call it prophilactic? Any prople actively or an anticipation of it? And the other thing I got to ask you because we don't know you yet, but you seem like an honest fellow who's gone deep on forgiveness. There's more about forgiveness than anything. Really, five nominations for Nobel Peace Prize and you haven't gone it yet. You gotta be a grudge. You have to be someone that we're holding something outside rightbody a minute.

Yeah, there was one announce today already from an imprisoned woman in Iran. She deserves it more than I do. So there's nothing to forgive there.

Yeah, there was one announce today already from an imprisoned woman in Iran. She deserves it more than I do. So there's nothing to forgive there.

You go. Wait, wait, wait, wait, so what you're saying six times, six times, you.

You go. Wait, wait, wait, wait, so what you're saying six times, six times, you.

Know, one more and you're gonna be right up there with me with the emmy. You know, Jason played, We didn't commiserate.

Know, one more and you're gonna be right up there with me with the emmy. You know, Jason played, We didn't commiserate.

I don't know if you're a Seinfo fan, but he played George Costanzer for what eighty two years on television and never got an Emmy for that role because people felt it wasn't that good. He just never perfected George.

I don't know if you're a Seinfo fan, but he played George Costanzer for what eighty two years on television and never got an Emmy for that role because people felt it wasn't that good. He just never perfected George.

I guess somebody was always doing a better job at their thing than I was.

I guess somebody was always doing a better job at their thing than I was.

That that is pretty And I hate to bring it up that way because I don't know if i'm you know.

That that is pretty And I hate to bring it up that way because I don't know if i'm you know.

Two hundred and forty two years from now, they'll be burning you in for bringing that up.

Two hundred and forty two years from now, they'll be burning you in for bringing that up.

So let's talk about forgiveness for a minute. It's a complicated, complicated subject, and I loved prepping for this because it impacts us in so many ways. Number One societal forgiveness friendship forgiveness. One great example is I forgive my wife for the argument we had and she apologizes. I apologize because in Western culture we're apologizing. But then next week we fight and she says, yeah, but when you said so, apparently you're bringing that up again.

So let's talk about forgiveness for a minute. It's a complicated, complicated subject, and I loved prepping for this because it impacts us in so many ways. Number One societal forgiveness friendship forgiveness. One great example is I forgive my wife for the argument we had and she apologizes. I apologize because in Western culture we're apologizing. But then next week we fight and she says, yeah, but when you said so, apparently you're bringing that up again.

You really didn't let go of that, or forgiving is not forgetting necessarily, So how do you navigate that?

You really didn't let go of that, or forgiving is not forgetting necessarily, So how do you navigate that?

Okay?

Okay?

Well, forgiving takes time, So if your dear wife brings it up again, she still might have forgiven you, but she needs a little bit more time to get over that kind of annoyance, you see. And basically, forgiveness is being good to those who haven't been good to you. And when you do that, you don't tolerate what the other does. You don't excuse what the other does. You don't let the other walk all over you. You may or may not wreck and sile with the other. Of course you will with your dear wife. But if someone keeps hitting you over the head with a frying pan, and every time you go back to the person, they say, come a little closer so I can hit you a little harder, you then don't reconcile with that person. And then another misunderstanding about forgiveness, people say, be good to those who aren't good to me. Where's the fairness in that? And there isn't fairness in that, because forgiveness is centered and having mercy on others. But you don't forget to bring justice along with it. So as you are good to those who aren't good to you, seek justice as well. Ask the person put the frying pan down.

Well, forgiving takes time, So if your dear wife brings it up again, she still might have forgiven you, but she needs a little bit more time to get over that kind of annoyance, you see. And basically, forgiveness is being good to those who haven't been good to you. And when you do that, you don't tolerate what the other does. You don't excuse what the other does. You don't let the other walk all over you. You may or may not wreck and sile with the other. Of course you will with your dear wife. But if someone keeps hitting you over the head with a frying pan, and every time you go back to the person, they say, come a little closer so I can hit you a little harder, you then don't reconcile with that person. And then another misunderstanding about forgiveness, people say, be good to those who aren't good to me. Where's the fairness in that? And there isn't fairness in that, because forgiveness is centered and having mercy on others. But you don't forget to bring justice along with it. So as you are good to those who aren't good to you, seek justice as well. Ask the person put the frying pan down.

Wow. But again that that is a very complicated thing and it's it's multifaceted. And I wasn't going to bring this up in the beginning, but we know Arnold Micauis Arnault was a founding member of the largest skinhead movement in the world. And Arnold said to Jayson and in me that like with the January sixth incursion or when you see tak A k rallies or Nazi rallies, he said, the counterintuitive thing you need to understand because he left the movement, and he said that the way I left the movement was by people being kind to me. It chipped away people that.

Wow. But again that that is a very complicated thing and it's it's multifaceted. And I wasn't going to bring this up in the beginning, but we know Arnold Micauis Arnault was a founding member of the largest skinhead movement in the world. And Arnold said to Jayson and in me that like with the January sixth incursion or when you see tak A k rallies or Nazi rallies, he said, the counterintuitive thing you need to understand because he left the movement, and he said that the way I left the movement was by people being kind to me. It chipped away people that.

He had not been generous or kind too, so it chipped the way it came to him.

He had not been generous or kind too, so it chipped the way it came to him.

And he said, it's counterintuitive, but what you got to do is love these people, embrace these people, and understand these people rather than commit computatively, because they're all broken people. And what the way to co opt them is by forgiving and reaching out to them that way, because it'll never happen the other way. And the reason he left the movement and forgave was because of all those little acts of kindness by people he hated, who he marched against, who he spoke against, which was a pretty powerful thing for me and Jason at the time.

And he said, it's counterintuitive, but what you got to do is love these people, embrace these people, and understand these people rather than commit computatively, because they're all broken people. And what the way to co opt them is by forgiving and reaching out to them that way, because it'll never happen the other way. And the reason he left the movement and forgave was because of all those little acts of kindness by people he hated, who he marched against, who he spoke against, which was a pretty powerful thing for me and Jason at the time.

It was very strong. Is that the essence of what you're talking about as being able to treat with charity and kindness and as you say, mercy those who not necessarily have yet earned it.

It was very strong. Is that the essence of what you're talking about as being able to treat with charity and kindness and as you say, mercy those who not necessarily have yet earned it.

Indeed, the forgiveness is not earned, you've got it. The idea of mercy is you give people the goodness even if they don't deserve it, and that can be spectacularly beautiful because most people don't expect it. They are sometimes stunned by it. And one I think real good lesson from what you just said about the skinhead movement. A lot of those in there probably have very wounded hearts from other people who treated them unfairly, and their fists are clinched and their jaws are tightened for what might have happened in their childhood, and they're now reproducing the wounds that happened to them toward other people. And once they can experience other's kindness, their hearts can soften, and then the cycle of patred or revenge, your acrimony actually can cease. And that really is I think the discovery in psychology about forgiveness that it can cut into the effects of trauma and heal people's hearts deeper than most psychotherapies that are being around for one hundred years.

Indeed, the forgiveness is not earned, you've got it. The idea of mercy is you give people the goodness even if they don't deserve it, and that can be spectacularly beautiful because most people don't expect it. They are sometimes stunned by it. And one I think real good lesson from what you just said about the skinhead movement. A lot of those in there probably have very wounded hearts from other people who treated them unfairly, and their fists are clinched and their jaws are tightened for what might have happened in their childhood, and they're now reproducing the wounds that happened to them toward other people. And once they can experience other's kindness, their hearts can soften, and then the cycle of patred or revenge, your acrimony actually can cease. And that really is I think the discovery in psychology about forgiveness that it can cut into the effects of trauma and heal people's hearts deeper than most psychotherapies that are being around for one hundred years.

Defintely, But speaking to that, because what you're talking about for someone to be able to offer that gift to someone after they themselves have been harmed by that person, especially if the person who's harming them is not yet repentant, how do you make the argument or do you make an argument for it being beneficial for the person doing the forgiving? Is what is the benefit? What does the person who is offering the forgiveness feel or experience that makes it doable?

Defintely, But speaking to that, because what you're talking about for someone to be able to offer that gift to someone after they themselves have been harmed by that person, especially if the person who's harming them is not yet repentant, how do you make the argument or do you make an argument for it being beneficial for the person doing the forgiving? Is what is the benefit? What does the person who is offering the forgiveness feel or experience that makes it doable?

You know's think about that. That's an important question. When people treat us deeply unjustly, what tends to happen is anger starts building in the heart, and psychologists make a distinction between healthy anger and unhealthy anger. Healthy anger is when someone treats you unjustly. At first, you say, look, I'm a person of worth, it's not fair. I'm offended, but you get over that quickly. Unhealthy anger is a very unwelcome guest in the human heart. The unhealthy anger comes into your heart, takes off his shoes, sits on the couch of your heart, and doesn't want to leave. And as you live with this unhealthy anger, which literally could keep it for forty years, you tend to have lower energy. You tend to be disrupted in sleep. You tend to perhaps ruminate on the other and that person and all the bad stuff from that person is now living in your heart. That person has a lot of power over you. Think about it. That person might have been unfair to you forty years ago, and all the effects of that are still in your heart. If you wait to forgive until you hear three little words, I am sorry, you're still giving that person way too much power over you. But forgiveness does paradoxically, our science shows this. When you decide it's a free choice to be good to those who aren't good to you, that anger in the heart starts chipping away, it starts going down, and then the anxiety, the depression, not even the not liking yourself can change, and that person no longer has power over you. So you don't want what has happened to you, to have the effects live with you till you take it to the grave. Take that person's power away from you unconditionally, before the person says anything otherwise, you're sitting there saying, Okay, have all the power over me you want. I'm gonna stay miserable until I hear the three little words don't let it happen.

You know's think about that. That's an important question. When people treat us deeply unjustly, what tends to happen is anger starts building in the heart, and psychologists make a distinction between healthy anger and unhealthy anger. Healthy anger is when someone treats you unjustly. At first, you say, look, I'm a person of worth, it's not fair. I'm offended, but you get over that quickly. Unhealthy anger is a very unwelcome guest in the human heart. The unhealthy anger comes into your heart, takes off his shoes, sits on the couch of your heart, and doesn't want to leave. And as you live with this unhealthy anger, which literally could keep it for forty years, you tend to have lower energy. You tend to be disrupted in sleep. You tend to perhaps ruminate on the other and that person and all the bad stuff from that person is now living in your heart. That person has a lot of power over you. Think about it. That person might have been unfair to you forty years ago, and all the effects of that are still in your heart. If you wait to forgive until you hear three little words, I am sorry, you're still giving that person way too much power over you. But forgiveness does paradoxically, our science shows this. When you decide it's a free choice to be good to those who aren't good to you, that anger in the heart starts chipping away, it starts going down, and then the anxiety, the depression, not even the not liking yourself can change, and that person no longer has power over you. So you don't want what has happened to you, to have the effects live with you till you take it to the grave. Take that person's power away from you unconditionally, before the person says anything otherwise, you're sitting there saying, Okay, have all the power over me you want. I'm gonna stay miserable until I hear the three little words don't let it happen.

That is so good.

That is so good.

Peter knows that I have been following a gentleman on social media for a while who's who is called sad Guru. He's a yogi and a guru, and he has this wonderful expression that I find so aspirational, where he says, yes, I feel everything everybody else does. I feel anger, I feel joy, I feel regret, I feel he says, but I don't give anyone else permission to take my joy from me. Big go, I can take my joy from me, but I don't give anyone else person to take it from me. And that was that was a great reflection of that statement. It actually makes it a little more knowable to me than just the aphorism.

Peter knows that I have been following a gentleman on social media for a while who's who is called sad Guru. He's a yogi and a guru, and he has this wonderful expression that I find so aspirational, where he says, yes, I feel everything everybody else does. I feel anger, I feel joy, I feel regret, I feel he says, but I don't give anyone else permission to take my joy from me. Big go, I can take my joy from me, but I don't give anyone else person to take it from me. And that was that was a great reflection of that statement. It actually makes it a little more knowable to me than just the aphorism.

That makes sense that they have power over you. And I'm curious, doctoran right you have to forgive this Institute. I want to talk about that in a minute in the mission. And you've devoted this part of your life. I think I read that you were doing work that was academic work that just wasn't fulfilling, and then you found this and it became your calling. Yes, and so you're you're the guy. But I'm wondering and hearing that I've been really lucky like Jason, and we joke about this a lot, but he really is my best friend, and we have had knockdown, drag out fights about stuff that have bothered me, bothered him, and when it's over, I always am shocked, not shocked, but there's zero growth, There's zero leftover residual. It's never like, well I'm mad at him for anything that he's done. There's nothing there, which was a real eye opener for me. But my question is, and that's in that situation it works. But societally, we don't learn this in school, we don't have anybody instructing us. But there are cultures that forgive. And I started in preparation for this reading about Hawaii and the fact in the Hawaiian culture they have what's it called huna, which is unconditional forgiveness. No matter what the person has done, you forgive them for that very reason, because it's holding their power over you. How does that work? How does the society decide to adapt that, especially when we're legally the most punishing and incarcerating society, one of them in the world. Yes, you're right.

That makes sense that they have power over you. And I'm curious, doctoran right you have to forgive this Institute. I want to talk about that in a minute in the mission. And you've devoted this part of your life. I think I read that you were doing work that was academic work that just wasn't fulfilling, and then you found this and it became your calling. Yes, and so you're you're the guy. But I'm wondering and hearing that I've been really lucky like Jason, and we joke about this a lot, but he really is my best friend, and we have had knockdown, drag out fights about stuff that have bothered me, bothered him, and when it's over, I always am shocked, not shocked, but there's zero growth, There's zero leftover residual. It's never like, well I'm mad at him for anything that he's done. There's nothing there, which was a real eye opener for me. But my question is, and that's in that situation it works. But societally, we don't learn this in school, we don't have anybody instructing us. But there are cultures that forgive. And I started in preparation for this reading about Hawaii and the fact in the Hawaiian culture they have what's it called huna, which is unconditional forgiveness. No matter what the person has done, you forgive them for that very reason, because it's holding their power over you. How does that work? How does the society decide to adapt that, especially when we're legally the most punishing and incarcerating society, one of them in the world. Yes, you're right.

A lot of that depends on the norms created within the group. Another example, if you recall, were the Amish when I think it was around two thousand and seven, a man came in with a gun into a one room schoolhouse and killed little girls and named others, and the Amish shocked to the world by attending his funeral and starting a scholarship for his children forgiving, and the world was saying, what's going on. I had a lot of media requests for that, and I had to say, I'd better find out what's going on because I don't know the answer. So I looked into it, and I found that the Amish practice forgiveness on a daily basis. It's part of their prayers, it's part of their norms and families. You see, they were building up their hearts with the strength of forgiveness, becoming what I call forgivingly fit prior to the atrocity, so by the time the atrocity happened, they had been practicing forgiveness and the little things of their everyday lives, their everyday local Amish community, and their families, so they were ready for this. It's the same thing with Hawaii. Another expression is help on, where they have the norm of forgiving those who have hurt them. Well, you are becoming forgiving, they fit. You're building your forgiveness muscle waiting for the atrocity to happen, because it's going to happen at some point. Many in Hawaii. You're ready for that. The Amish, certainly we're ready for that. You're right. In our society when we go to school, we teach kids to sit up straight, take the gum out of their mouth, conjugate verbs, and know what the capital of Missouri is. But we don't ask them to prepare for the injustices that invariably will hurt us all. And what's the point of education. Isn't it to prepare for adulthood? Why or why are we not preparing children for the atrocities that will happen to them, as the Amish have. We need to learn that lesson and put forgiveness into education because all the children. I would take it away from them if I could, but I'm not that powerful. They're going to have injustices against them.

A lot of that depends on the norms created within the group. Another example, if you recall, were the Amish when I think it was around two thousand and seven, a man came in with a gun into a one room schoolhouse and killed little girls and named others, and the Amish shocked to the world by attending his funeral and starting a scholarship for his children forgiving, and the world was saying, what's going on. I had a lot of media requests for that, and I had to say, I'd better find out what's going on because I don't know the answer. So I looked into it, and I found that the Amish practice forgiveness on a daily basis. It's part of their prayers, it's part of their norms and families. You see, they were building up their hearts with the strength of forgiveness, becoming what I call forgivingly fit prior to the atrocity, so by the time the atrocity happened, they had been practicing forgiveness and the little things of their everyday lives, their everyday local Amish community, and their families, so they were ready for this. It's the same thing with Hawaii. Another expression is help on, where they have the norm of forgiving those who have hurt them. Well, you are becoming forgiving, they fit. You're building your forgiveness muscle waiting for the atrocity to happen, because it's going to happen at some point. Many in Hawaii. You're ready for that. The Amish, certainly we're ready for that. You're right. In our society when we go to school, we teach kids to sit up straight, take the gum out of their mouth, conjugate verbs, and know what the capital of Missouri is. But we don't ask them to prepare for the injustices that invariably will hurt us all. And what's the point of education. Isn't it to prepare for adulthood? Why or why are we not preparing children for the atrocities that will happen to them, as the Amish have. We need to learn that lesson and put forgiveness into education because all the children. I would take it away from them if I could, but I'm not that powerful. They're going to have injustices against them.

How do they handle By the way, another incident that I think we all remember is the female police officer who went into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed African American guy in his apartment. And at trial, the person who died I think brother, came down and hugged the police officer. The family embraced the pe police officers, the judge did, and a lot of people watching it was so moving. I mean, I'm tearing out. You go, how they just killed somebody that you loved as a family member. How did you do that? And it spurned a lot of conversation because it was so foreign to our society to look at that and say, how are you doing that? How is that even possible?

How do they handle By the way, another incident that I think we all remember is the female police officer who went into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed African American guy in his apartment. And at trial, the person who died I think brother, came down and hugged the police officer. The family embraced the pe police officers, the judge did, and a lot of people watching it was so moving. I mean, I'm tearing out. You go, how they just killed somebody that you loved as a family member. How did you do that? And it spurned a lot of conversation because it was so foreign to our society to look at that and say, how are you doing that? How is that even possible?

But in that particular example, and you know, there was the understanding that a mistake had been made, right, But I'm wondering about I also want to explore with you, you know, the practicality of how you do teach the steps of forgiveness. But before we get into that, is there how do you respond to anybody that might make the argument that if you are, as you say, preparing for forgiveness, if you're building the forgiveness muscle, does that make you more tolerant of abuse? Because, so I'm going to be really specific, Jews in Nazi Germany could see the small incidents of aggression building before the actual Holocaust began. If they were I mean, I'm not a historian, and I don't know what the process was there, But if they had all been for going, well, okay, let's forgive that. We can tolerate this, we can do that, We can give this. If they had been less of I don't know if it was forgiveness, but if they had been less accepting of the conditions as they were building, would they have avoided the greater Holocaust? Is there a possibility of being too accepting and too forgiving and therefore inviting calamity on yourself?

But in that particular example, and you know, there was the understanding that a mistake had been made, right, But I'm wondering about I also want to explore with you, you know, the practicality of how you do teach the steps of forgiveness. But before we get into that, is there how do you respond to anybody that might make the argument that if you are, as you say, preparing for forgiveness, if you're building the forgiveness muscle, does that make you more tolerant of abuse? Because, so I'm going to be really specific, Jews in Nazi Germany could see the small incidents of aggression building before the actual Holocaust began. If they were I mean, I'm not a historian, and I don't know what the process was there, But if they had all been for going, well, okay, let's forgive that. We can tolerate this, we can do that, We can give this. If they had been less of I don't know if it was forgiveness, but if they had been less accepting of the conditions as they were building, would they have avoided the greater Holocaust? Is there a possibility of being too accepting and too forgiving and therefore inviting calamity on yourself?

Absolutely?

Absolutely?

None, okay, And.

None, okay, And.

Here's why would we go deeply into forgiveness and get it right? And that's what we need to do as a society, not misunderstand it. We realize this, what happened to us was wrong, is wrong, and will always be wrong. We never back off from the rationality, the realization that these things are wrong. So what was happening in Nazi Germany?

Here's why would we go deeply into forgiveness and get it right? And that's what we need to do as a society, not misunderstand it. We realize this, what happened to us was wrong, is wrong, and will always be wrong. We never back off from the rationality, the realization that these things are wrong. So what was happening in Nazi Germany?

We're wrong.

We're wrong.

When you forgive, you don't focus on the wrong and say, well, maybe it's more right than I thought. No, no, no, it is always wrong. What's your target when you forgive the person? It's the other person, not the incident itself. And so when we forgive, we look at the other by widening the angle of our lens as to who this other is as a human being. And that's how we can be softer toward that person. But we bring justice alongside, and we ask something of that person, and we ask something, so these incidents don't keep going. Forgiveness can actually help you be more tough minded this way. Why because to forgive always is in the context without exception, of being treated unfairly. So when you see it's unfair, you stand firm and you never give up on that. You might have a softer heart toward the person. But now let's bring justice in and say get this done right, buddy.

When you forgive, you don't focus on the wrong and say, well, maybe it's more right than I thought. No, no, no, it is always wrong. What's your target when you forgive the person? It's the other person, not the incident itself. And so when we forgive, we look at the other by widening the angle of our lens as to who this other is as a human being. And that's how we can be softer toward that person. But we bring justice alongside, and we ask something of that person, and we ask something, so these incidents don't keep going. Forgiveness can actually help you be more tough minded this way. Why because to forgive always is in the context without exception, of being treated unfairly. So when you see it's unfair, you stand firm and you never give up on that. You might have a softer heart toward the person. But now let's bring justice in and say get this done right, buddy.

So when you bring justice in, that leads me to our legal system, our law. Okay, So our legal system, for instance, the bankruptcy on Wall Street. All the bankruptcy in two thousand and eight, nobody was even blamed, So there's not even forgiveness. Yet there are a lot of people who are still digging out from what happened there. And then you've got clemency and pardons that go to certain people and not to other people, and usually it's connections in power. You got most of America wants to forgive pot crimes. And yet, like I said, we're the most incarcerating society. So how does it work in our legal system because that seems completely if I may use a legal term for coct.

So when you bring justice in, that leads me to our legal system, our law. Okay, So our legal system, for instance, the bankruptcy on Wall Street. All the bankruptcy in two thousand and eight, nobody was even blamed, So there's not even forgiveness. Yet there are a lot of people who are still digging out from what happened there. And then you've got clemency and pardons that go to certain people and not to other people, and usually it's connections in power. You got most of America wants to forgive pot crimes. And yet, like I said, we're the most incarcerating society. So how does it work in our legal system because that seems completely if I may use a legal term for coct.

Yeah, well, there is a difference between legal pardon and forgiving. When we do the legal pardon, it's usually not the judge who's been offended, and so there's an issue with regard to the law, but nothing personal, and forgiveness is always personal. I am the one with the wounded heart. I'm the one who's reaching out. But you know, you're right, the legal system them desperately needs forgiveness, and here's where it needs it. We did a study of over one hundred men who were in a maximum security correctional institution and we interviewed them on any grave injustices that have ever happened to them in childhood or adolescents, grave issues like being thrown out of the house, like being beaten or sexually abused. What percentage of these one hundred men reported grave injustices against them in childhood or adolescence cloaks yet ninety percent? And you know what, forty percent of them never told anyone about it. And when I put myself in their shoes, I asked myself, how could I live under these circumstances. And so we have a situation of gravely abused people in maximum security prison, and the rehabilitation doesn't even have this on the radar. What we have to do is bring forgiveness into the legal system by looking at what has happened to those who perpetrate grave crime onto others, because a lot of their hatred spills over to others. We then did an intervention with some of these men. One of the guys with whom we worked was in there for life because he was accused and convicted of thirty murders and suspected of one hundred. He was so filled with hatred that he was killing others. We helped him to forgive those who abused him in childhood, and he quieted down. He was safer in prisoners, making it safer for others because his rage wasn't coming out anymore. Do you see how we really have to start?

Yeah, well, there is a difference between legal pardon and forgiving. When we do the legal pardon, it's usually not the judge who's been offended, and so there's an issue with regard to the law, but nothing personal, and forgiveness is always personal. I am the one with the wounded heart. I'm the one who's reaching out. But you know, you're right, the legal system them desperately needs forgiveness, and here's where it needs it. We did a study of over one hundred men who were in a maximum security correctional institution and we interviewed them on any grave injustices that have ever happened to them in childhood or adolescents, grave issues like being thrown out of the house, like being beaten or sexually abused. What percentage of these one hundred men reported grave injustices against them in childhood or adolescence cloaks yet ninety percent? And you know what, forty percent of them never told anyone about it. And when I put myself in their shoes, I asked myself, how could I live under these circumstances. And so we have a situation of gravely abused people in maximum security prison, and the rehabilitation doesn't even have this on the radar. What we have to do is bring forgiveness into the legal system by looking at what has happened to those who perpetrate grave crime onto others, because a lot of their hatred spills over to others. We then did an intervention with some of these men. One of the guys with whom we worked was in there for life because he was accused and convicted of thirty murders and suspected of one hundred. He was so filled with hatred that he was killing others. We helped him to forgive those who abused him in childhood, and he quieted down. He was safer in prisoners, making it safer for others because his rage wasn't coming out anymore. Do you see how we really have to start?

It feels as you're saying it. I can hear the response. It's so contradictory, so contradictory to why help this guy? He's killed people, he's a killer. Forget him, Let's throw away the key and turn. But you're saying, if we learn from this and understand why this stuff happens and what society dos to people, you can alleviate the next guy yer also and understand that these like Arno said, these are broken people. They're all broken people.

It feels as you're saying it. I can hear the response. It's so contradictory, so contradictory to why help this guy? He's killed people, he's a killer. Forget him, Let's throw away the key and turn. But you're saying, if we learn from this and understand why this stuff happens and what society dos to people, you can alleviate the next guy yer also and understand that these like Arno said, these are broken people. They're all broken people.

They're broad and we don't see it in society. We don't see it and we have to start acknowledging it and seeing it.

They're broad and we don't see it in society. We don't see it and we have to start acknowledging it and seeing it.

Can you walk us through in some sort of, you know, relatively easy and understandable way. What what are what do you teach? What are the steps that you offer people to reach forgiveness?

Can you walk us through in some sort of, you know, relatively easy and understandable way. What what are what do you teach? What are the steps that you offer people to reach forgiveness?

We call it the process model of forgiveness because forgiveness takes time.

We call it the process model of forgiveness because forgiveness takes time.

It's a journey.

It's a journey.

It's not like you just sit in a chair and say I forgive you man, and that's the end of it. It takes this kind of issue. First of all, you have to be aware of the effects on you of the injustice and name the injustice or the injustices, and see some of the effects like excessive anger, rumination that we've already talked about. That's highly motivating to do something about the effects. So then we go to what we call the decision phase, and we ask people do you want to try to forgive? And the person usually says no. We say, well, here's what it is. You're good to those who aren't good to you. You will not get rid of the idea that what happened to you is okay. You will not tolerate it, you will not forget, you remember in new ways. You may or may not reconcile, and you won't throw justice under the bus. You will try to be good to the one who was not good to you. Do you want to try it? Most everyone at that point says yes, because the effects have been with them and are so deep, and they've tried everything under the sun to heal and it has it work. Ye'll try it. We go to what we call the work phase, the workfhase starts with thinking, because it's easier to think about the other than to feel good feelings. And we first of all do what we call a personal perspective. And most people know the one who's hurt them. The vast majority are hurt by those who shouldn't never have hurt them because they're closed. And so we ask about the woundedness in the heart of the one who hurts you. What was life like for this person growing up? Most people can answer that, what was life like for the person emerging into adulthood and coming up to when this person hurts you? What are some of the wounds the confusions? And people are usually quite surprised to see there's a lot of woundedness in the other's heart that dumped the truck under me. And so then we ask does this person have built in or inherent worth? Is this person fully human? If that person cuts, well the person and bleed? How about if you get cut, will you bleed? Do you need good nutrition? Does that person need good nutrition? Has there ever been another human being on the planet like this person? Ever? Has there ever been anyone on the planet like you? You're both specially unique and irreplaceable. You both have inherent worth, and that takes time to settle in because when people see that, they say, oh, boy, I wish I didn't hear that. And then, depending on whether the person has a transcendent perspective or not. Let's say we're dealing with a Jewish person. Okay, we then go to what we call the cosmic perspective, and we might ask the Jewish person, this is it true in your scriptures that all people are made in the image and likeness of God? In a Jewish person say yes, It's in Genesis one and it's repeated in there. Okay, are you made in the image and likeness of God? Yet drum roll please? Is the one who hurt you made in the imagion likeness of God? And again at that point people say, oh, I wish I didn't know that. But again it takes time. But when you put all of this together, seeing the woundedness, you both share humanity and you both if again, depending on your religious or faith based belief, if you think everyone has made in the image enlightness of God, you put that together and you see a human being in front of you, and you might be seeing a human being for the first time and you know what that happened. What happens then compassion starts building in your heart for the stumblings and bumblings and pain that that person has gone through in life. And the compassion is a little bit of softening of that hardened heart that's starting to help you get rid of the power that person had over you. And so at that point, we ask the person to bear the pain, stand in the pain, and don't throw it back to that person, and don't throw the pain back to anyone else, because you know what, a lot of wounded people do throw their pain back to others who never have hurt them, like the guy with whom we worked to kill thirty people and they never hurt him, but he was so enraged he wasn't bearing the pain. So when you bear the pain, it's a gift to the one who hurts you, because, as Gandhi said, if we keep taking an eye for an eye, the whole world will be blind. And once a little compassion occurs, you bear the pain and you stand up to the pain, and you realize you're stronger than you thought you were because you can stand in the pain and it doesn't crush you. Then we ask for the punchline, can you be good to this person who hasn't been good to you? Maybe a smile, a returned email. If the person's deceased, how about contributing a little money to charity in the person's name. And that is when we begin to see the person start getting new meaning and purpose in life. You know, people say, I've learned a lot more about suffer and looking at the other suffering in my own suffering, and I have a new purpose in life which to help people overcome their own difficulties. Another gentleman with whom I worked in a medium security prison never getting out, said to me, now that I've learned to forgive, my new purpose in life is to help my cellmates to overcome the power others have over them and to heal their hearts. That's my new purpose in life, even though I'm never getting out of here. And the big paradox of all of this, the mystery is, once you have done all of this for the other, winding the angle of your lens, standing in the pain, feeling the compassion, and doing something good, you are the one who is healed. Your anger goes down from clinical levels to normal levels. That's what happened to our men in the maximum security. They were clinically angry and they went to normal levels. They were anxious that they went to normal levels. They were clinically depressed and they went to normal levels. And you know what also happens when people walk this path of giving to others, they end up liking themselves. Because when people are beaten down by life, they tend to believe the lie and they tend to disparage themselves. When they see they can stand in the pain, when they see that they too are people of worth, they recapture an image of themselves that's more true, realistic and good.

It's not like you just sit in a chair and say I forgive you man, and that's the end of it. It takes this kind of issue. First of all, you have to be aware of the effects on you of the injustice and name the injustice or the injustices, and see some of the effects like excessive anger, rumination that we've already talked about. That's highly motivating to do something about the effects. So then we go to what we call the decision phase, and we ask people do you want to try to forgive? And the person usually says no. We say, well, here's what it is. You're good to those who aren't good to you. You will not get rid of the idea that what happened to you is okay. You will not tolerate it, you will not forget, you remember in new ways. You may or may not reconcile, and you won't throw justice under the bus. You will try to be good to the one who was not good to you. Do you want to try it? Most everyone at that point says yes, because the effects have been with them and are so deep, and they've tried everything under the sun to heal and it has it work. Ye'll try it. We go to what we call the work phase, the workfhase starts with thinking, because it's easier to think about the other than to feel good feelings. And we first of all do what we call a personal perspective. And most people know the one who's hurt them. The vast majority are hurt by those who shouldn't never have hurt them because they're closed. And so we ask about the woundedness in the heart of the one who hurts you. What was life like for this person growing up? Most people can answer that, what was life like for the person emerging into adulthood and coming up to when this person hurts you? What are some of the wounds the confusions? And people are usually quite surprised to see there's a lot of woundedness in the other's heart that dumped the truck under me. And so then we ask does this person have built in or inherent worth? Is this person fully human? If that person cuts, well the person and bleed? How about if you get cut, will you bleed? Do you need good nutrition? Does that person need good nutrition? Has there ever been another human being on the planet like this person? Ever? Has there ever been anyone on the planet like you? You're both specially unique and irreplaceable. You both have inherent worth, and that takes time to settle in because when people see that, they say, oh, boy, I wish I didn't hear that. And then, depending on whether the person has a transcendent perspective or not. Let's say we're dealing with a Jewish person. Okay, we then go to what we call the cosmic perspective, and we might ask the Jewish person, this is it true in your scriptures that all people are made in the image and likeness of God? In a Jewish person say yes, It's in Genesis one and it's repeated in there. Okay, are you made in the image and likeness of God? Yet drum roll please? Is the one who hurt you made in the imagion likeness of God? And again at that point people say, oh, I wish I didn't know that. But again it takes time. But when you put all of this together, seeing the woundedness, you both share humanity and you both if again, depending on your religious or faith based belief, if you think everyone has made in the image enlightness of God, you put that together and you see a human being in front of you, and you might be seeing a human being for the first time and you know what that happened. What happens then compassion starts building in your heart for the stumblings and bumblings and pain that that person has gone through in life. And the compassion is a little bit of softening of that hardened heart that's starting to help you get rid of the power that person had over you. And so at that point, we ask the person to bear the pain, stand in the pain, and don't throw it back to that person, and don't throw the pain back to anyone else, because you know what, a lot of wounded people do throw their pain back to others who never have hurt them, like the guy with whom we worked to kill thirty people and they never hurt him, but he was so enraged he wasn't bearing the pain. So when you bear the pain, it's a gift to the one who hurts you, because, as Gandhi said, if we keep taking an eye for an eye, the whole world will be blind. And once a little compassion occurs, you bear the pain and you stand up to the pain, and you realize you're stronger than you thought you were because you can stand in the pain and it doesn't crush you. Then we ask for the punchline, can you be good to this person who hasn't been good to you? Maybe a smile, a returned email. If the person's deceased, how about contributing a little money to charity in the person's name. And that is when we begin to see the person start getting new meaning and purpose in life. You know, people say, I've learned a lot more about suffer and looking at the other suffering in my own suffering, and I have a new purpose in life which to help people overcome their own difficulties. Another gentleman with whom I worked in a medium security prison never getting out, said to me, now that I've learned to forgive, my new purpose in life is to help my cellmates to overcome the power others have over them and to heal their hearts. That's my new purpose in life, even though I'm never getting out of here. And the big paradox of all of this, the mystery is, once you have done all of this for the other, winding the angle of your lens, standing in the pain, feeling the compassion, and doing something good, you are the one who is healed. Your anger goes down from clinical levels to normal levels. That's what happened to our men in the maximum security. They were clinically angry and they went to normal levels. They were anxious that they went to normal levels. They were clinically depressed and they went to normal levels. And you know what also happens when people walk this path of giving to others, they end up liking themselves. Because when people are beaten down by life, they tend to believe the lie and they tend to disparage themselves. When they see they can stand in the pain, when they see that they too are people of worth, they recapture an image of themselves that's more true, realistic and good.

You know, don't you feel like you owe an apology to the people outside? Everybody you kntgated? No, you were you were so No, No, that's not when I arrived here. Producer Laurie said, Peter is about to go off a ledge.

You know, don't you feel like you owe an apology to the people outside? Everybody you kntgated? No, you were you were so No, No, that's not when I arrived here. Producer Laurie said, Peter is about to go off a ledge.

He apotic.

He apotic.

If he had a weapon in his hand, he would be they would be mayhem. He would be with the guy who thirty you would have done thirty.

If he had a weapon in his hand, he would be they would be mayhem. He would be with the guy who thirty you would have done thirty.

Oh wait, so let's recap this and take our photograph. Right, Larie's protecting because I got here before she did, right, and we had to go around to get here. With all the guys in the room there, I said, you know what, this sucks and what and then I went, but let's make it work. You came in and went, we can't make it. That's right, I got.

Oh wait, so let's recap this and take our photograph. Right, Larie's protecting because I got here before she did, right, and we had to go around to get here. With all the guys in the room there, I said, you know what, this sucks and what and then I went, but let's make it work. You came in and went, we can't make it. That's right, I got.

So I quit, which unforgiving.

So I quit, which unforgiving.

Oh no, you had, you had.

Oh no, you had, you had.

I was gonna go. I was just I was changing my locale of hate.

I was gonna go. I was just I was changing my locale of hate.

So you listen to this and you go, it makes It makes all the sense in the world to get rid of your baggage and to just make a world. I know it's the feely, touchy come by of thing, and people are probably thrown up and getting insulin shots right now, but this is it's such a no.

So you listen to this and you go, it makes It makes all the sense in the world to get rid of your baggage and to just make a world. I know it's the feely, touchy come by of thing, and people are probably thrown up and getting insulin shots right now, but this is it's such a no.

I don't think I don't think they got it.

I don't think I don't think they got it.

They got it.

They got it.

I don't think there was anything sackering of what was being the topic the issue feel what it does. If anything, I think it feels and ambitious and it feels aspirational, and I think some people will think about someone that they are in conflict with and think about how hard the first steps would be. But I think anybody listening to that starts to go, well, that that well and something to rise to bingo, you got it.

I don't think there was anything sackering of what was being the topic the issue feel what it does. If anything, I think it feels and ambitious and it feels aspirational, and I think some people will think about someone that they are in conflict with and think about how hard the first steps would be. But I think anybody listening to that starts to go, well, that that well and something to rise to bingo, you got it.

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

In fact, if you keep hating the person, who are you abusing yourself? Because if that person is far away from you, you may no longer have any contact with that person. That hatred has no influence on that person whatsoever, but it does on you, because living with hatred in your heart can be very, very costly to you.

In fact, if you keep hating the person, who are you abusing yourself? Because if that person is far away from you, you may no longer have any contact with that person. That hatred has no influence on that person whatsoever, but it does on you, because living with hatred in your heart can be very, very costly to you.

Boy.

Boy.

I am so I am so happy Peter that you found this man. I am so happy you you. I got to tell you. We've been chatting with you for thirty minutes, and you are in my heart. The things you have said, the things you have discovered, and the way you express them. I am so touched. There's a lot of what you're talking about that I've been thinking about and working on, and you know, in my own therapy and in my own life, and you you express it in such a beautiful and succinct way. I am just so grateful to have had this time with you. I'm so thankful for you, to you for coming on and chatting with us.

I am so I am so happy Peter that you found this man. I am so happy you you. I got to tell you. We've been chatting with you for thirty minutes, and you are in my heart. The things you have said, the things you have discovered, and the way you express them. I am so touched. There's a lot of what you're talking about that I've been thinking about and working on, and you know, in my own therapy and in my own life, and you you express it in such a beautiful and succinct way. I am just so grateful to have had this time with you. I'm so thankful for you, to you for coming on and chatting with us.

Thank you, and check out the International Forgiveness Institute too. Look it up. There's a lot of resources on there, a lot of information there that so thank you. It's a really important topic. We just scratched the surface. So thanks for coming on. You're amazing.

Thank you, and check out the International Forgiveness Institute too. Look it up. There's a lot of resources on there, a lot of information there that so thank you. It's a really important topic. We just scratched the surface. So thanks for coming on. You're amazing.

Thank you Peter and Jason for having me have spend my honor.

Thank you Peter and Jason for having me have spend my honor.

Thank you, sir that I wasn't kidding. That was one of the most beautiful conversations we've had.

Thank you, sir that I wasn't kidding. That was one of the most beautiful conversations we've had.

I did some research here. I don't want to waste that.

I did some research here. I don't want to waste that.

Oh my god.

Oh my god.

So do you know why we blame people? There's a scientific reason for what you've blame. And I found this to be fascinated. I told David already google him and he went wow. So the brain, our brains were designed to predict are The ancient man had to predict and guess where they find food so they don't deplete their energy, so they can they could find food. When you make a prediction correctly. When that happens, you get a hit of dopamine, which feels good, which makes sense. A monkey come's a treat to get to the food. On every step they get a little dopamine. When they get it. It's I predicted correctly, it's here. So you get a hit when you guess incorrectly, or even one of the examples of us when you're reading something a document and there's an error in it. It releases cortisol, which is a negative feeling, a negative emotion, and you want to correct it right away. Blaming immediately corrects the cortisol. It it wipes out the cortisol because you're now blaming it on somebody else and taking it off you, so that feeling goes away. The more often you do that to stop the cortisol for being released, and you blame you, blame limb. You're not learning any new behaviors, you're not getting dopamine, but you're getting really good. It's stopping cortoisol from being released to your body and making you feel bad. So there is a scientific and a brain chemistry reason that we blame. It actually relieves that negative feeling you got from the cortisol. And I thought that that was really.

So do you know why we blame people? There's a scientific reason for what you've blame. And I found this to be fascinated. I told David already google him and he went wow. So the brain, our brains were designed to predict are The ancient man had to predict and guess where they find food so they don't deplete their energy, so they can they could find food. When you make a prediction correctly. When that happens, you get a hit of dopamine, which feels good, which makes sense. A monkey come's a treat to get to the food. On every step they get a little dopamine. When they get it. It's I predicted correctly, it's here. So you get a hit when you guess incorrectly, or even one of the examples of us when you're reading something a document and there's an error in it. It releases cortisol, which is a negative feeling, a negative emotion, and you want to correct it right away. Blaming immediately corrects the cortisol. It it wipes out the cortisol because you're now blaming it on somebody else and taking it off you, so that feeling goes away. The more often you do that to stop the cortisol for being released, and you blame you, blame limb. You're not learning any new behaviors, you're not getting dopamine, but you're getting really good. It's stopping cortoisol from being released to your body and making you feel bad. So there is a scientific and a brain chemistry reason that we blame. It actually relieves that negative feeling you got from the cortisol. And I thought that that was really.

That happens to not be the reason. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. In my personal life any blaming happens. My mother told me I was the Messiah, so I cannot be wrong, I cannot be flawed, and therefore blame is the only.

That happens to not be the reason. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. In my personal life any blaming happens. My mother told me I was the Messiah, so I cannot be wrong, I cannot be flawed, and therefore blame is the only.

And by the way, you're just reinforced of course, the.

And by the way, you're just reinforced of course, the.

I will tell you.

I will tell you.

I will tell you too.

I will tell you too.

I'll tell you one of the great stories about forgiveness, and it may be anecdotal. I'm not sure. I've been told by a couple of people that this is a true story. It's one of my favorite stories of forgiveness. And it was during the negotiations between Monoch Comebag and unwatched to Dot for the what became the Egyptian rallied piece of cord. And you know it was it was a very difficult thing to get to and Golda Meyer who was no longer the Prime Minister, but she was called in to attend and at one point when it was going badly, the story goes Sadat said to her, can you really look me in the eye and tell me you will forgive us for killing your children? And she is rumored to have said, I will forgive you for killing my children, but I will never forgive you for making my children kill yours. And supposedly, if that is true, that was the beginning of his resolution to make this accord. That gesture of forget with exactly what the doctor was talking about. It was loaded with forgiveness, but it's still demanded justice well.

I'll tell you one of the great stories about forgiveness, and it may be anecdotal. I'm not sure. I've been told by a couple of people that this is a true story. It's one of my favorite stories of forgiveness. And it was during the negotiations between Monoch Comebag and unwatched to Dot for the what became the Egyptian rallied piece of cord. And you know it was it was a very difficult thing to get to and Golda Meyer who was no longer the Prime Minister, but she was called in to attend and at one point when it was going badly, the story goes Sadat said to her, can you really look me in the eye and tell me you will forgive us for killing your children? And she is rumored to have said, I will forgive you for killing my children, but I will never forgive you for making my children kill yours. And supposedly, if that is true, that was the beginning of his resolution to make this accord. That gesture of forget with exactly what the doctor was talking about. It was loaded with forgiveness, but it's still demanded justice well.

And it also our world leaders have to have insight and balance and like Like I said when we were talking to him, justice and paying for crimes is one thing, but then also making get a vindictive payment is a different There's a whole different story.

And it also our world leaders have to have insight and balance and like Like I said when we were talking to him, justice and paying for crimes is one thing, but then also making get a vindictive payment is a different There's a whole different story.

There are some great feuds. Do you want to know about some of the great histories.

There are some great feuds. Do you want to know about some of the great histories.

Why not?

Why not?

Well, everybody knows about the hat Fields and the McCoys. Do you know what that was about a hat? It was a dispute over a hog. Oh well, that makes sense then apparently, Yeah, it was about a hog. It was a New Year's Dear ambush that left members of the McCoy family dead, and it went on for years and years and years. They were feuding over a hog in eighteen That makes sense.

Well, everybody knows about the hat Fields and the McCoys. Do you know what that was about a hat? It was a dispute over a hog. Oh well, that makes sense then apparently, Yeah, it was about a hog. It was a New Year's Dear ambush that left members of the McCoy family dead, and it went on for years and years and years. They were feuding over a hog in eighteen That makes sense.

But remember the value of a hog. That's that's seventeenth Today it's worth two billion bucks. Yeah. What's interesting having you here is when we talk about grudges and negative Yeah, Seinfeld, every guest star you had on that show was assigned a negative connotation name that would imply you had low talker, anti dentite, John Lovetz was cancer pretender, Yeah, close talker, James Spader, non apologizer, Raquel Welsh. I laughed out loud, so did David. When we remembered what Raka Wash was on for it. He was a walker who didn't swing her arms when she moved that that made them crazy that she didn't move her arm. I mean, you guys found stuff they hate people for and hold on, you got yeah, but you did it. You didn't stop and say no, these are despicable people. Poppy had poor HII before Poppy had for hygiene, and Uncle Leo was a thief. Everybody, everybody was there, nobody, everybody's a problem. The whole culture of scient.

But remember the value of a hog. That's that's seventeenth Today it's worth two billion bucks. Yeah. What's interesting having you here is when we talk about grudges and negative Yeah, Seinfeld, every guest star you had on that show was assigned a negative connotation name that would imply you had low talker, anti dentite, John Lovetz was cancer pretender, Yeah, close talker, James Spader, non apologizer, Raquel Welsh. I laughed out loud, so did David. When we remembered what Raka Wash was on for it. He was a walker who didn't swing her arms when she moved that that made them crazy that she didn't move her arm. I mean, you guys found stuff they hate people for and hold on, you got yeah, but you did it. You didn't stop and say no, these are despicable people. Poppy had poor HII before Poppy had for hygiene, and Uncle Leo was a thief. Everybody, everybody was there, nobody, everybody's a problem. The whole culture of scient.

Folg was And by the way, we forgave nobody. We forget for Dave nobody in that show. And here we get in checks in the year to things exactly.

Folg was And by the way, we forgave nobody. We forget for Dave nobody in that show. And here we get in checks in the year to things exactly.

And by the way, the other thing we didn't ask the head of the institute about. The one thing I didn't ask about, and I know that's a whole other world is people who became immensely, wildly successful because their whole premise was I'm going to build a business bigger than his in point them out of business. Everybody in my family was in business, whereas I'm going to put that schmark out of business and show him that's how they built well.

And by the way, the other thing we didn't ask the head of the institute about. The one thing I didn't ask about, and I know that's a whole other world is people who became immensely, wildly successful because their whole premise was I'm going to build a business bigger than his in point them out of business. Everybody in my family was in business, whereas I'm going to put that schmark out of business and show him that's how they built well.

They seriously, do you think competition is no competition always no out of I've been hurt by you.

They seriously, do you think competition is no competition always no out of I've been hurt by you.

No no, no, no no, but but a bunch of it has been. My ex partner ripped me off, and I'm going to show him. I'm going to get back at him. I'm gonna and I'm going to build something. So it motivated something. Sure, No, I get that that's like grudging.

No no, no, no no, but but a bunch of it has been. My ex partner ripped me off, and I'm going to show him. I'm going to get back at him. I'm gonna and I'm going to build something. So it motivated something. Sure, No, I get that that's like grudging.

I don't. I don't think that's what he's talking.

I don't. I don't think that's what he's talking.

I know he's not talking about, but I'm curious if there's anything positive the holding a grudge?

I know he's not talking about, but I'm curious if there's anything positive the holding a grudge?

Do you hold that?

Do you hold that?

You know what?

You know what?

I can?

I can?

I have one grudge story that ended very beautifully. I had an incident Lari's.

I have one grudge story that ended very beautifully. I had an incident Lari's.

By the way, Laurie, who we know. I love it. Laurie holds grudges? Is she getting on Mike? You getting a mic? I love this Becauseilian, I'm Sicilian?

By the way, Laurie, who we know. I love it. Laurie holds grudges? Is she getting on Mike? You getting a mic? I love this Becauseilian, I'm Sicilian?

So sure?

So sure?

How many? How many are you stacking up right now? I just have a few?

How many? How many are you stacking up right now? I just have a few?

You really have to.

You really have to.

It's not if you do anything to me, I don't care.

It's not if you do anything to me, I don't care.

But if you do it to my husband or my daughter, sure then forget it.

But if you do it to my husband or my daughter, sure then forget it.

And we're joking about is it painful? As you listen to that, did it make you think about how painful it is and what it does to you? The answer are you gonna let go of any of that?

And we're joking about is it painful? As you listen to that, did it make you think about how painful it is and what it does to you? The answer are you gonna let go of any of that?

But you know it's it's so interesting because my wife and I learned this when we had when we had therapy that it almost became funny. But when we when we said things in anger because we had been hurt, and then you know, I hurt, so I speak in anger. She gets hurt from what I say, so she speaks in anger, and it goes back and forth until we learned that the first time you hear something that hurts your feelings, instead of snapping, you go ow that hurt ow well, and then immediately the other person goes, all right, sorry I didn't I didn't mean it.

But you know it's it's so interesting because my wife and I learned this when we had when we had therapy that it almost became funny. But when we when we said things in anger because we had been hurt, and then you know, I hurt, so I speak in anger. She gets hurt from what I say, so she speaks in anger, and it goes back and forth until we learned that the first time you hear something that hurts your feelings, instead of snapping, you go ow that hurt ow well, and then immediately the other person goes, all right, sorry I didn't I didn't mean it.

It's also easier to say to somebody, this is how it made me feel because they can't negate your feelings. Let's go to google hind before we completely get blubbery.

It's also easier to say to somebody, this is how it made me feel because they can't negate your feelings. Let's go to google hind before we completely get blubbery.

And David, I forget preemptively have any grudges. I don't know, David.

And David, I forget preemptively have any grudges. I don't know, David.

No, please, family for Laurie and David, which is great. We'll work on that. We know we're getting them for Christmas.

No, please, family for Laurie and David, which is great. We'll work on that. We know we're getting them for Christmas.

Yeah, to the institute.

Yeah, to the institute.

I was actually today, I have a list of Laurie's Top ten naps.

I was actually today, I have a list of Laurie's Top ten naps.

When we we go after people for you that's great, Okay, we'll do that. Gosh yeah, yeah, yeah.

When we we go after people for you that's great, Okay, we'll do that. Gosh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So well today we learned all about, of course, forgiveness and what is the saying to forgive and forget to forget? So why do we forget? I wanted to look into the brain science of why we forget? What is the purpose of forgetting? And I just want to throw a disclaimer out there.

So well today we learned all about, of course, forgiveness and what is the saying to forgive and forget to forget? So why do we forget? I wanted to look into the brain science of why we forget? What is the purpose of forgetting? And I just want to throw a disclaimer out there.

This has absolutely.

This has absolutely.

Nothing to do with the fact that I watched The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwickle the other day.