Your very own Iron Man suit controlled with just your mind. Thought directed videogames played directly from your consciousness. Want a higher I.Q … no problem, just get an implant!
Elon Musk wants approval for human trials for his Neuralink company’s implantable brain–computer interfaces. Could brains linked directly to computers be an imminent reality or are we dealing with science fantasy? Jason and Peter had to find out…so they spoke with a world-class neurologist and brain surgeon Dr. Daniel Yoshor.
From Parkinson’s to ALS, from blindness to depression, for weight loss and epilepsy, the applications to transform people’s lives are undeniable…but what are the ethical and moral considerations?
And could this be the critical technology that saves us all from renegade Artificial Intelligence .
You might be surprised by how quickly some of these ideas could become part of everyday life:
Follow Dr. Yoshor on Twitter: @DanielYoshor
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Now really, hello everybody. I am Jason Alexander here with Peter Children. But we are the hosts of Really No Really, the show where we explore things that make Peter and I say really no really. That's right now. Today we're gonna get We're gonna get very cerebral, literally very cerebral, because we're talking about neural links, the connection between brains and tech and tech. This. First of all, I'm solely in over my head. You know, I'm not a tech guy. You consider yourself a tech I'm not. I'm not that much of a tech guy. But oddly enough, I was studying the blood brain Barry and Parkinson's disease and stuff, whoa, and and and for like the longest time. Now they're trying to identify the areas of the brain that satiation because you can make a lot of money if you can do that and make people feel full. Okay, yeah, And they've done great things with Parkinson's, they've done great things with epilepsy. And the doctor we're gonna have on today, and I'm thrilled we have him because he's a major guy out of Philadelphia has done great things with sight. I mean, the great positive parts of all this stuff is moving forward with people who are paralyzed. You're doing all kinds of stuff with spinal cord stimulation, which is mind blower, and that by willing it you can move your limbs. Where it gets a little bit crazy now is when you're connected directly to tech. You're the mouse and you can text. You can do all kinds of stuff with your brain, play games. The heart moving one was at an als patient who had no movement. His arms gave a message and I forget it was oh, hello, hello world because he could communicate. So imagine yes, your family being able to communicate with you, etc. However, money involved. It's two ways. And if it can get signals from your brain into a computer, then obviously it can get from the computer into your because because really, no really to that, if I'm going to lay it out, is we are closer than you think to being able to link your brain directly to your computer. Really, no, really, So let's find out. We got doctor Daniel Yosher, who is nationally recognized NOURS surgery Norse scientists. He is the chair of the Department of neurs Surgery at the prominent School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. UM, and he's folks, you say hi and talk about your your expertise, because there's so much that you've done, not only working with these kind of interfaces. That's why we wanted you because I read an article I read about a lot of expertship you said, I know the interface. I mean, I know what they're doing. Since you do this, you've seen brains up close, we were curious what your take was. So thanks for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. And if you're going to get into something that's really illicits really no, really, the human brain, is it? I mean, you're spot on here and this is a fascinating area. And I think you've already alluded to the concerns that exist if we are able to really harness the power of the brain and interface it with computer technology to the betterment of human lives. There are clearly important concerns about ethical considerations. What if someone could make a chip that just made you smarter? Are we going to pay for added intelligence? Will we'd be doing cosmetic surgery for the brain, so to speak. The ethics of the potential for controlling people's brains, These are big concerns, and it's important not only for scientists to address these concerns, but concerned citizens like you to address these concerns. So I'm glad, I'm excited to have this conversation. I introduced this doctors as saying, we are closer than you think to being able to link your brain to your computer. Now, you know, for twenty thousand years I've heard you know, we're really close to having flying cars, and there's no flying cars. How are we doing this? Are we in it? Is it being used with any real success and facility? Where are we with it? Great question, Well, there are a couple of uses that are really happening, and your partner mentioned one of them, and that is the concept of deep brain stimulation for movement disorders like Parkinson's disease. That's sort of a magical situation Parkinson's disease because in the nineteen seventies some tainted synthetic heroine caused a parkinson like syndrome and unfortunate patients who took this tainted drug called MPTP, and this led to an animal model of Parkinson's disease that allowed neuroscientists and neurosurgeons to really study the circuits with great precision, and they were able to determine that putting an electrode in a specific part of the brain and turning on activity in that part of the brain for dramatic pameliorate or improve tremors and other motor symptoms of Parkinson's disease. And that's been implanted in hundreds of thousands of patients to great benefits. So that's an example of a real life brain computer interfacing device that's used to help patients. Absolutely. There is another device that's been used common for patients with epilepsy. If you can find the spot in the brain where epilepsy is coming from. Traditionally we try to take out that spot of the brain to end future seizures, but sometimes that part of the brain is in a critical area, and as you can imagine, we don't want to take away, for example, a person's ability to talk just to cure their epilepsy. So another route to treat epilepsy is to put an electrode in that part of the brain where the seizures normally spontaneously occur, and there's a sensor in this device that detects when of seizure is about to happen and immediately then stimulates the brain to sort of short circuit the seizure, and that's quite effective in helping patients with epilepsy. So those are two examples of things. Those are flying cars that are happening right now. To borrow your words. When you do brain surgery and you open up the skull for you, it's a it's a thing. Wednesday I got three five, Friday, I got five brain surgery. They say it kind of like, yeah, we may have to do brains like it's nothing, not like it's nothing, but it's not a concern. As it comes out of their mouth and parents are family members here, your hair it goes like back like the maxella, and you go, oh, it's a major thing. Is it a major thing? The brain is that fragile. Modern brain surgery is remarkably safe. We know what we can do very well. And of course there are cases where we're pushing the limits of what we can do, where we're forced to because of really serious problems that there's no choice that they can't be ignored or put off. But for the most part, you know, we're we're blessed to live in a time where between technology and gathered experience over decades modern brain surgery. That you know, the mortality from brain surgery is very very low, and the good that it does for society is great. And are you're hitting the spot by hand or is it mechanical? I mean, do you have because it's like I'm guessing, boy, I gotta hit that. I hope I'm exact or something. All of a sudden, it's always motor skills. When we're targeting a specific area, like in the circuits, the motor circuits that are involved in Barkinson's disease, that's all computer guided and guided by math and technology. We're not doing that freehand. We're aiming for tiny targets using for life frames often awake, usually awake. It's actually safer away I'm out and they feel one of the great I'll give you a really really and having spoonfuls of his brain and he's having at so bad? Ye real, By the way, could that happen? I want to give you a really no really here guys, you're ready? Yeah, the brain has no feelings. There you go. If if I find a sin now, if you pin, if I pinch your hand, it hurts. If I pinch your brain, you feel nothing. Yeah, But to get to my brain, you got to cut through my head. That's true. That part am I remedial. The brain itself has no sensation. You can you do not feel any pit. You feel pain of course when you cut the skin or the lining of the brain or the skull, but once you're down to the brain itself, there is no feeling. But is everybody's brain I'll explain what I mean in the second the same Like, for instance, I I'm left handed, is is that control always in the same part of the brain where I'm left handed or right handed? Or is like, oh this guy has his thing is in a different sector? Now identical sector? What is it? Star wars here in a ship I'm talking to a doctor, wouldn't be. There's a certain basic organization of the brain that's the same, but of course there's a lot of variation within that. So you're absolutely right that left handed people have a high likelihood that the left side of their brain is I'm sorry, the right side of their brain is dominant versus we always check this is how my right Now he's thinking, wait a minute, yesterday surgery that so, and like if you cut ch Asan's head up in the mind, my brain would be much bigger, correct, m There isn't a direct correlation with the size of the brain and intelligence. So even if you're your brain may not be bigger. So with brain. And when we get specifics because I want to read some stuff, claims not to knock him, but Elon Muscus said that they're doing and I want to find out how close we are to that. But the last thing on the mapping the brain when you're doing surgery, do we know what every area of the brain does. Are we at the point where you know every inch, every microinch or whatever that is. We have a good understanding of the basic organism of the brain. And obviously there's a little variation from person to person, just as everyone has five fingers on their right hand, but everyone's right hand is a little different. So there is certainly some inherent v How do you get to that? Yes, and to make somebody not hungry? So there are satiety centers deep in the brain. And one of my colleagues here at Penn you just happen to mention an area where we have the world expert. Here is a neurosurgeon named Casey Halpern, and he's actually doing surgery to try to control compulsive overeating by targeting a precise site in the brain and stimulating it when that urge to eat occurs. That's normally uncontrollable in patients who have, you know, severe overeating disorders. So yes, we do have a sense of where these areas are. My particular interests, for example, is vision, and I can tell you with excellent precision. I know what part of Jason's brain and your brain is the area of the brain that's critical for usual perception. Of course, there's a little variation in how each gyrus and sulcus is patterned in each brain, but we know different. Yeah, that's on the same player. That's what you've done. Yeah, because you've restored, You've done surgeries that are restored people. We've done early efforts to restore site for patients who have acquired blindness. I want to make it clear, and I think we have to be very honest about what we do. We're early on this stage. The flying cars analogy is a great analogy that Jason mentioned earlier. We don't want to constantly saying our cars are flying, or to borrow from Elon Musk self driving until they really are. And all right, so let me let me I'm going back to just say, tell your colleague with the over eating, I booked the flat. I'll be there Thursday. So just make a note. Can you tell me via this, I'll put a paper clip right and you're here. We'll do it right now. So let me read a couple of things that Elon Musk said, not to knock him or just to give context because he's the one who saying the stuff can be done. Musk clean and human trials will begin a six months, but that's been for years. He's been saying human trials are going to start soon. He says, as soon as it happens, he's going to have it linked to himself. And he said that it's going to be part of the brain, and the person who gets fitted would not even though they got fitted. So you, like you go into places, is going to link it to himself for what because in Must's mind, this is not what the doctor's doing to help people who are challenged or have problems. This is and to scale up because they're investing so much money and they're all investing. Bill Gates is investing, Peter theole is investing all the silicon of Aaleguiyers are racing to invest money to be ahead of this. Because we talked about the metaverse. We talked about gaming engagement is what tech is all about. The longer you engage with tech, the more advertising, the more monetary thing. So imagine if they can link you in twenty four to seven to gaming, to texting, whatever, and they have access. So that's what Musk is talking about. That is not to help somebody and enhance, It's more about the whole pub that everybody in the public would have it. He said He's aiming for brain implants that would be available to any consumer who once one. And the other thing he said was his long term plans. He thinks human brains need to be directly connected to phones, computers, and applications. You can run Google searches directly from your brain, or can even imagine connecting to someone else's mind, seeing and hearing what that other person is doing. And this is the science fiction part of what he says. Must says all this is part of a strategy to offset the fact that artificial intelligence one day is going to get so smart that it poses a threat to mankind, so we need to be linked to AI to fight the evil AI. There we go, So, Doc, Doc, you want to address that as far as linking, linking to each other, seeing what the other person can see, etc. How close. Let me give you a little context from the ARII work and which is an vision. And of course it's really interesting that you had William Shatner on And obviously you guys are a little schooled in Star Trek. You remember the character Jordi LaForge on Star Trek with the visual prosthetic device, so that, like everything in art, there's a little bit of reality in that. And Gene Roden Burry, the creator of Star Trek, was aware of this phenomena that we've known about for many decades that even in a blind person, if you stimulate the visual part of the brain in the back of the head, even someone who has acquired blindness, who hasn't seen in ten twenty years, you can make them see a spot of light because there's a precise map in the back of your brain. You ask me about the differences between people's brains. Your brains are both a little different. There is some individual variation, but each of you has precise maps in the back of your brain of the visual world and the ideas. We know the currency of the brain, the signals that go on in your brain between neurons. The currency is electricity. So we know if we can introduce electricity with great precision to those maps in your brain of the visual world, in theory, we can generate a pixel based representation of the visual world. The ideas of someone's been blind for many years, their eyes are irreparably broken. We could use a camera that they could wear on a pair of glasses and attach that to a microcomputer and use that microcomputer to translate the image that is captured by the camera into a pattern of stimulation in your brain to create an image so that is tantalizing. People had worked on it for many years. Gene Roddenberry knew about this work when he invented a visual prosthetic in his imagined world. What has people like Elon Musk and Bill Gates and all the great industrialists and leaders in the computer world excited is ten years ago, twenty years ago. It was a great idea, but the technology was light years away. All of a sudden, with miniaturization and advanced engineering and advanced computers and microprocessors and artificial intelligence. What seemed to be a distant dream is probably not that are away, and scientists and physicians like me are very excited about harnessing this potential to help patients who suffer from diseases and impairments. You mentioned als and spinal cord injury, from motor impairments, or the inability to speak for victims of a stroke. They're people working on speech prosthetics, in my case, working on visual prosthetics for patients who are blind. But you're absolutely right. In the military, they're interested in developing interfaces to allow soldiers to communicate without speaking and work in unison. There is deep interest in the computer community and the meta community that you spoke of. I mean. Another example is in my world of visual science, which is the visual neuroscience, which is the study of how the brain takes images that are projected into the eyes and turns them into coherent percepts. A huge commercialization has developed, and that's the field of computer vision. So this business you saw in the news papers where at Madison Square Garden, if you're a lawyer on the wrong list, they won't let you in the building. They're able to do that because they use computer vision to detect your face and say person X is on the bad list, they can't come in the building. And that's an example of commercialization of science for purposes that some people might well take issue with. So you are articulating about how what you're working on is very therapeutic for a lot of physical ailments like als and blindness and whatnot. I think I was reading something about is there research being done on mental health issues and how this technology can help as well PTSD or trauma depression. What's happening there. Drugs have done great things for patients with psychiatric disorders, but when you put it drug in a patient's body that goes all over the entire body it's being it affects every cell on the body. And the dream is if we can understand the circuits that are particularly involved in a condition like obsessive compulsive disorder or depression, and we can target a device to just hit that part of the brain and alter the part of the brain that's working in a way that's unhelpful to the patient's quality of life, but not mess up the rest of the brain. That's the dream. And so there's active research at many leading centers in the country to develop brain stimulation devices that will ameliorate these these you know, really terribly disabling disorders. And you don't use this for mild depression that's doing well on antidepressive meds. This is for the patients. If we don't need something that yeah, I mean, they're they're devastated. So absolutely, this is a big part of the scene right now. So let me let me. Having understood all that, let me articulate what I think the average person's greatest fear about this is if we can use technology to stimulate the brain, especially in the areas of mental health, where one of the articles I read was that schizophrenia is potentially treated this way. It's what I said at the beginning of the show. It's a pathway in and a pathway out. So the fear that I think uneducated little guys like me go is, I'm if my brain can be stimulated by something in this computer technology. Anything in technology, to my understanding, is potentially hackable, and if somebody hacked it, are we in a position where I can be made to see things that do not exist? Is that the matrix, can I be compelled to do things against my will. How potentially destructive or dangerous could this technology get? Right now, you're safe because we're not that good can't control your brain, So thank god, you're safer now. But in theory, and you're absolutely right, there are technologies that both involve gathering information from the brain. For example, a motor prosthetic in a patient who is paralyzed. We record the signals in the brain as the patient attempts to move an arm and translate that into moving a robotic arm. And that's an example of reading the brain. But we can also write into the brain, and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to take a visual image, a picture captured by a camera and write that into the brain. So you're absolutely right, there's both directions. Is active areas of research right now. I don't think you're at threat for mind control. To Jason's point, there's a I don't know if you know the newer scientist Raphael Yes, yes, he did an experiment which you can not only read from the visual center of mouse brain, but use the laser to make the animal perceive things that were not there. Absolutely, so that's that's pretty bold. Yes, it is bold, but it and it is certainly impressive, and he's a terrific scientist, but he said he was concerned about that is it is going to be a concern as the technology, as the capabilities evolved. Right now, we don't have to worry about it today, but it will be a concern. You have to pick a date we'd like to worry. What's the date, ten years, five years, twenty years, forty years, let's say twenty years. We'll have to serious. And the other thing we're interested in, almost equally is which company would you invest in? Right now? I will say none of this should happen in a vacuum. It's not like we're dropping these devices on the island and Lord of the flies, where there's no rules and everything runs wild. There has to be some safety nets, some organizations, some ethical principles. And to be fair, the NIH the National Institutes of Health, as they invest in brain research, have also invested heavily in the ethic of brain research. So the other thing, remember the other thing that is billionaires. And again not to demonize them, but the big industry can also push back on regulations, get loophole's. You know, they're also the ones who move it that way where it can be a little more more dangerous because we're dealing with we all know. You know, I heard AI is light years away from it, and yet there's a reporter on the New York Times it had a conversation with the being shot pot and the being shot spot going. I have thoughts that I don't like to share, and I could do nefarious things. Stopped me from hurting myself. I mean, it seems like it leaped, you know, beyond anyone's expectation. And that's my concern about this. My other concern is and I don't know if I'm right or wrong about this. So one of the things we were talking about is one of your colleagues work was helping someone with als um basically move a cursor with their with their mind robotic ard. Yes, absolutely exactly, And that's exactly what I want. I want up because to me, the investment that I think would be valuable is making a human being, giving them back more of a human experience. So to me, if my brain can control something, I don't want to control the mouse with my mind. I want to control my robotic arm with my mind and manipulate the mouse I would personally be frightened by being connected to that hackable piece of technology. Why why not build these things? So the thing I compare to is there's now a device that diabetics can wear who It monitors their glucose level and self administer is insulin. They don't need to tie into a computer network. It's all autonomous on their body. Why why wouldn't the research push more to that side than to the let's connect to the internet. But there is a computer even in the diabetes example. There's a little microprocessor in that device, So you're everything's hackable, even if it's in your body. It's all hackable. I think when when when scientists like the als example you gave, when they're focused on a mouse, that's just because that's the incremental step. You start with something simple, and then you work on a robotic arm, then you work on an ironman's suit, and it's just hang on, Is that a possibility? Of course, it's a possibility. Absolutely, Go go go forward. You must cast you're right behind the carf You just don't know. Let's go with the nitty gritty. I'm just curious your day. You get up at five in the morning, you have some grape fruit, I guess, and you're eating healthy because your doctor. What on surgical days? What's your earliest surgery? When do you opens up the first time? We started seven thirty. That's pretty standard unless it's an emergency. But we hello now because you're the guy, the big guy heads already open. We were involved in every step of every operation. So you're the guy who cuts. It's not like Louis. You take it and I'll come in. We're involved in every step. We work with us, but we're involved in every step of it. How long is the average brain surgery? Average one is four to six hours? I would say, wolf, And then do you to multiples in a day? Yeah? Yes, yes, yes, wow? You know you never worked a ten hour day. Not where I'm are you robotic? Mostly robotic. We use a lot of robotic guidance, computer guidance. So we have like a GPS system that tells us exactly where we are. So is that you in an eighteen year old IT guy or no? No, we control the the GPS device. Favorite problem you call the best buy what do they called their junior squad guys? Guys? One of the guy's brain it's not working you said the Wi Fi's not going down hospital. We do this all the time with Zoom et cetera. And I guess a lot of these services were not prepared for COVID for everybody doing stuff, so the service can drop out or not. Do you have backup Wi Fi and Bluetooth? What happens if we have backup? We have backup the imp You ask you this, if you were doing this in Los Angeles and there was a little bit of an earthquake, are you prepared for that? Is anything we are prepared. We are prepared for. You're having a bad day. I don't know if you're married, but the wife says, building got drunk last night. It's going to cost us twenty thousand bucks. Is that affect your surgery? No bad days allowed, hostly, I mean, it's our job to put put all that aside when we're working on a patient. That's the center of the universe at that moment. That's not just me, that's everybody in the in the business of neurosurgery. While you're in the operating room, no bad days, you're working on the patient about hair restoration? Is anybody working on that? You know who? It's funny you mentioned that I had a college who passed away a couple of years ago, a guy named Phil Gildenberg who he took the navigate the idea of the navigation device, the robotic arm device that we use in brain surgery, and filed for a patent to use that same device to do hair transplant surgery. Have a robot and put in each follicle one at a time, so I'll be there be there a week. But just like with satiation, they're racing to if they could figure that out. That's another the obesity thing, and they here thing were the two biggest as far as I mean, would I would be a comp so they have a different career. They haven't found that center yet. Lance And all of a sudden, I'm George Clooney, Well what you doubt me? No doubt saying yeah, you George, nothing waste another episode of Really, really Really, you don't think I could be Danny saying Laurie, if you can get Cluney on the phone just to gives you don't have to even call it, just gives us a list of the differences. That was John Hammin. I think the doctor can do that. You know, doctor, I know that you're busy, Like, so, how annoyed are you right now that we're dragging this out because you're missing a patient? I know you got to be out in about a minute and a half. This is a pleasure and to have smart guys like you talking about these issues. It's you know, to the intelligent lay people, it's really important. We don't want to just it may not be our audience. One thing, one thing you hit on us thought was quite interesting was this idea of in medicine and in biomedical research, we're expected to report on results that are proven. And in the world of high tech and commercialization, um, the problem that the fake it till you make it sort of culture, the culture of saying we can do this, like like Pharaonos for example, is the most notorious example. I don't think those guys started out being dishonest. I think they're in this culture saying this is our dream and we're gonna do this. We're going to do this, we need the investments, we're going to do this. We don't do that in hospital and biomedical research. There are lives at stake and we cannot and we will not do that. Thanks for coming on so ten years we're ten years away from that. Do you have a surgery twenty he said, twenty, Um, you have a surgery plan right after us. Just have clinic today. So yesterday was to wash your hands, Wash your hands. You're great. You're a great guys. Thanks to plan, but also thanks for being so What you do is amazing work there in my hometown. We'd love to have dinner with you. I hope to never see you on a professional level. That's all I'm gonna say that. You're I just don't want to need your service because I'll be the first guy he touches the brand I go, I'll feel it, feeling you know what I'm feeling it. You wouldn't know what you'd be like. Really, we haven't dinner with him out there and oh rest in peace. Well that was fascinating. I was fascinated by all of that. I cannot say yet and I believe everything he said. I'm not exactly at ease about it, David Googleheim. What did we learn that we didn't learn? What do you got for us? Listen? Yes, well I have to fact check this doctor. He doesn't know everything. Was the one thing that I wanted to get to was something that was described in Business Insider how the neuralalink, the Elon Musk Company, how they plan to implant these things into your head. It would be inserted into the brain by a device not dissimilar to a sewing machine, which would use a stiff needle to poke the threads into place about one millimeter into the outer surface of the brain or the cortex. So you could go to a place and say, I need to put in and I need where you were going. I knew exactly that would be amazing. We were linked. That would be amazing. Technology wouldn't ever get your pants and your brain down at the same place. Well, remember David, what we said, bistical gime that there is a and they all do it. There is a level of hype even in scientific world, because they needed to custom the noise. So when you see if you're if you work in news like I did every day, the ones that kept pushed out are the ones that are a little bit more dramatic. Right. You like to think that they're being honorable and they're being you know, like he said, it did in a scientific community, they don't bys. But there's hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars being invested in Silicon Valley now because they think this is the next frontier. But you know, also, your brain is the last space with brain hacking, like you with privacy, they download your neural file. It's somewhere and somebody uploads your neural file and they got your thoughts listen this whole thing. I totally understand the benefits of being able to use this technology to vastly improve people's lives. I could even see, honestly that it could be an exciting way for people to have experiences they could not otherwise afford or be able to do. If you can imagine, if you can, if you can input in and stimulate site, sound, taste all that stuff, and use it to say to somebody, all right, you're going to travel today. You're gonna go to this place and have a complete sensory understanding of that place. UM. I think that could be exciting. I think that that's yeah. I think there's all kinds of potential. That's total recall. That's recall. But you know, there are things that I think, as we move forward, are going to excite the imagination of how to use this. But I just to me, the whole world is skynet. I keep seeing somebody nefariously using this technology to implant um a reality that doesn't exist, and all of a rock and you're sitting in Google like Keanu Reeves you know, is sucking off of you for nutrition. It's just for you. So here's my final word. Ready, here's what I think. If they can download you neurally, I'll be canceled for something I didn't even know. I'm thinking, they go, how dare you go? What we downloaded you nermally? And you can't believe it? You in there? It was you said, I didn't say that, Oh it was in there, And all of a sudden, yeah, wow, no Wather you're right. Then it's thought please and that's all that other stuff. I'm there. The good thing is, the good thing is with the two of us, not a lot of thoughts. So they would probably right now today if you could interface the technology that use you use most often, just by ahead, yeah, just by having Oh my godhead, it would be great to do it. It's just it's it's one stuff up for the wireless ere buds. Boy, I cannot check my I could check my on my Amazon purchases without having to do it. Why didn't that arrive I wanted that Thursday. Oh my god, you could get I'm a busy guy in a gazillion I know, but we can't get you to do a lot of tech stuff. Well, that's true. You've got a dumbhouse. Remember we talked about that episode in the Dumbhouse. I have a human house. Oh oh, damnation to all of us that have tech and usual. I have a human house. I don't rely on technology to do a lot of the things that people rely on. Course, I don't need a refrigerator to tell the supermarket what I need. I can open the door and make a list. And you know, by the way phone to eat. There's nothing could eat, So maybe you should use well, you know, you'll make fun. You go ahead and make fun. I'm telling you this is a scary technology. Now really, now, really, all right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us. We want to thank doctor Daniel Yosher, a beautifully nationally recognized neurosurgeon. Beautiful, beautifully I'm like, I'm like Trump. I had work. He was amazing, he was wonderful. He's also the chair of the Department of Neurosurgery in the Perilment School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. You can follow doctor Yosher and his mind boggling work on Twitter at Daniel Yosher. You can find us online at really No Really dot com, Instagram, and TikTok. We're at Really No Really Podcast. You can leave us messages anywhere or those places. Tell us one of your really No Really is maybe we'll do it on the show. We want to thank all of you. If you're watching us on YouTube, please subscribe and rate us, and then we also want to tell you that we will be dropping new episodes every Tuesday, so she'll be sure to follow us on the iHeartRadio app, the Apple app, or wherever you get your podcast. We'll see you soon. Thanks for watching, and I'm severing the link right here we go severed