Just because you're a household name doesn't mean you have it all....
Celebrity coach and podcast host Whitney Uland shares her concept of celebrity energy and her tips to staying in your confidence while navigating the demands of the public spotlight.
Plus, Rachel shares why podcasting has helped her public persona after her dramatic reality TV days.
This is Rachel gos Rogue.
Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue with your host Rachel Savannah Levis, and today we are being joined by celebrity coach Whitney Ewland.
I started following whitney Eland.
After I saw some of her social media posts talking about celebrity energy and the importance of having kind hearted people in the entertainment industry and using their voices. Her point of view is very interesting and it's given me motivation to continue to step in this limelight and to use this podcast to broadcast a bigger message.
Hi Whitney, so good to meet you.
It's so good to meet you too. Okay, So, for the listeners who aren't familiar with.
Your content online, could you give us like a quick rundown of your stance on celebrity and being famous and kind of how you use or view fame as a resource.
Yeah, so exactly. Just to your point, I just think that fame is the resource of having people's attention, and once you have that resource, then you can leverage it into things that you want, missions that you care about, things that are important to you. You can leverage it into a career. If that's what you want, right, to get clients, to get bookings, to get brand deals, that kind of thing. But I really just am such a believer that, you know, if we look at how Hollywood has kind of been in the past, it was through corporations and through organizations of you know, a television show or a network or whatever, kind of picking people who kind of had to go through these steps of being chosen and being selected. And now with social media, anyone can create the resource of fame, and anyone can build a platform and then leverage that into what they want. I just love kind of demystifying what fame is and how to get it and just helping make it more accessible to people that have important missions.
I love that.
On your podcast, do you talk about how there are two different types of people that come to you to contact you. There's the person that is seeking to develop this fame as a resource and they're pretty much starting from ground zero. And then there's the other type of clientele that is coming to you who have already reached a certain level of fame and they are starting to need to resource other people to get.
To the next level.
And in that category, you find that some of those people have been canceled before.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So could you give like maybe a little bit of background or like advice from a coaching perspective for a client who has been canceled before.
Totally. I'm going to actually kind of break this down similarly, because it is the same process whether you're someone who's been canceled or whether you're someone who just wants to start start out. I'm sure you know you're aware of this, is that the hard thing about being famous is Okay, if we think about like a musician and let's say they put out an album and it fails, that's embarrassing, right, that their work fails. But once you're already in the spotlight, it's not just your work that's being judged. It's your life decisions. And how many of us have made life decisions that we regret, like I have right, Like I feel like I self sabotaged my way into ruining my marriage, if I'm completely honest. And once you have this resource of fame, it makes you. It puts all of that on display. And so I think that the main thing that happens when someone becomes famous is that people stop thinking of you like a real person. They stop thinking of you as someone who's experiencing an immense pressure. My following started to grow as I was in the middle of a divorce that again I kind of self sabotage my way into And even though that's not what my work is about, the fact that I was in the spotlight while that was happening was so much pressure. It's really hard on your nervous system. Our brains are not wired to be seen by massive amounts of people. Right if you were to close or eze and picture a million people, you literally cannot write. Our brains are only wired to understand our in life and in person communities. And suddenly, when you're on the spotlight and millions of people are seeing you and millions of people are making judgments about what you're doing and how you're acting, your nervous system can't handle that, and so it's going to collapse. And so this is why I'm kind of saying it's similar. If you're just starting out, your brain is not wired to be seen by a massive amounts of people. It knows that, it subconsciously knows. Oh, if I'm in front of millions of people and I mess up, they're going to see that, right, they're going and so you're going to avoid it. But for someone who's been canceled, it's you have that pressure, and it's I see all of the time. You know people who are at the top of their game, people that would that we love and we love their work, and they're so miserable because there's all of this pressure now as a person, and whether they've messed up and been canceled or not, it's just not something that her brains are wired to be experiencing that much exposure. So the work that I'm doing with someone who's been canceled, it's really about building a really solid relationship with yourself where you can forgive yourself and you can be willing to be seen in a really authentic way and be willing to be like really deeply misunderstood, right, and like to be willing to like I mean, listen, I made a post about Tom Holland and I just was and it was like off the cuff, I wasn't even thinking that much about it. Well, I did not realize you do not want to pick a fight with someone in the Marvel universe, right, And like his fans came at me and it just shut me down, like, even though it's not like that's not the equivalent of being canceled at all. I'm just using that as an example because our we're not wired to receive that much hate. And so the work that I'm doing is helping people get back into their bodies and into their nervous system and really feel safe with themselves, because if you don't, then their body moves into that trauma response where they literally cannot function. And when they oftentimes what people will do is they move into the fight response and then they fight back with people and that just kind of like devolves and makes it worse. And from that place, we're literally not able to function when we're in this like trauma response and in this survival response. And so the work I do is just to help people come back to their like to themselves and to their logical thinking and to their creative thinking. And that's when and being willing to just and their mistakes and take ownership and then get back on the horse again. So it's really interesting and rewarding work.
I love that.
I think with a podcast too, there is that ability to be creative with the content that you're putting out there, and what you create is a reflection of who you are as a person. And the reason why I chose to do a podcast and not go back to the show is because it allowed for me to have more power and control of my narrative, which really there was a point there where I really felt so powerless and like I felt like I did everything wrong and it just was not going my way or.
My way was not working for me anymore.
And so with some time and some self reflection and just finding my voice again and believing in myself and finding my own power with in expressing myself, I felt confident starting this podcast.
Yeah, I love that.
What are your credentials or how does somebody become a celebrity coach?
I started as an actor, a really struggling actor, and I was just very much the epitome of talent, but could not get work like I you know, even looking back now, I'll look at my singing and my dancing and my acting, and I'm like, that is a talented girl. But when I walked into the audition room, I just shut down. I was so afraid of being seen, and I was so afraid of what people would think of me. I was afraid of failing, and so I was subconsciously blocking myself. Then I found this work, and I noticed that as I started to work on myself, my auditions got better, I started to like land more roles. Things just really started to pop off, and so I just kind of had this nudge in twenty nineteen to get certified as a coach, and it really was something that just consumed all of my Like it was like I can't stop thinking about this, like I love this so much. And then you know, in twenty twenty, that's when my agent got for a load and my development deal got crashed and my oh no, like all of the funding for my movie dropped out, but suddenly everyone needed a life coach, and so it kind of like took off at the same time. And then during that time is when I signed my first celebrity client, and I just kind of like learned through like a lot of my work has been like learning on the job and getting like seeing a behind the scenes you know, take of what it what it's like to be famous. So it's like to be a celebrity, and but it's also you know, it's just human behavior, which is I'm just I'm just a nerd. About it and just I'm always like reading about it and learning and a student of it myself.
Me too, Me too. I am fascinated by human behavior. So I wanted to ask you.
We all know that with the help of social media it is a lot easier to become famous than it used to be.
How does one and tap into their celebrity energy?
Yeah, so a good question just for any like listeners that you know aren't familiar with this term. So celebrity energy, it's basically the term I made up for the factor. So it's that energy that you tap into. And you know, I was raised worm and didn't watch a lot of television. I don't really know. Like I was even dming you before this. I was like, I don't really watch TV, Like I don't really know what's going on. I don't know if we need, you know whatever. I just kind of feel like a little alien that I never know what's going on. But whenever I'm in like erewhon and there's a celebrity there, I know that there're a celebrity. It's like you know that someone is someone. They just have this magnetism that they carry with them. And there's this great story by Marilyn Monroe's photographer that basically, the photographer said that they were walking in New York City and Marilyn loved to be in New York because no one ever recognized her the way that they did in Hollywood, and so she could kind of just sneak sneak under the radar. And then one day she turned to the photographer and said, do you want to watch people become her? And they said, I didn't know what to expect. And then her energy shifted and all of a sudden, they said, stars, cars were stopping, people were stopping her on the street and asked and saying, there's Marilyn Monroe. So it was this shift that she made. And as I've studied, you know, the different like you know, even like Lady Gaga art is like you can watch how their auras grow and change in the power that they have, and so celebrity energy this is it factor I that's one hundred percent what I was missing when I was when I was acting in New York. And it was but it's what happens when you feel unafraid of being seen by massive amounts of people for who you authentically are. So there's you know, and there's kind of this idea that people in Hollywood are all narcissists, simple of themselves and whatever, and that kind of is true because those people really aren't afraid of being seen for who they authentically are, right, and people who you know, I always say, people who've done the work on themselves, they're they're so aware of other people, and they're so aware that they know the risks, they know the risks of being in the spotlight, and so then they're less likely to go after fame. So anyway, that was a little of a tangent. But the reason that I'm saying this is because if you want to pop off on social media, it's about feeling safe being seen by massive amounts of people. Right. Remember, like our brains don't understand what a million people look like, but you could have a video pop off that all of a sudden has a million eyeballs on you, and our capacity isn't always able to handle that. So something that I see a lot with clients when they're first starting out, and sometimes they come to me as they're like, I was making content, but then I had a viral video and then I just completely shut down and I deleted the account or I quit reading the comments or whatever, because again, our nervous systems just aren't meant to handle that mental load of having that many people looking at us and perceiving us and having thoughts. So the work really is, I always like to say, creating thing the resource of people's attention. It's really like a spiritual journey because it's about making peace with yourself, and it's about making peace with letting people see who you are authentically in your flaws, in your imperfections, and also in your power. I think a lot of us are afraid of people seeing us, you know, confident or like women are afraid of that, afraid of being seen. And you know, I was just coaching my clients before this about imposter syndrome and people, you know, are afraid of They're like, I have this amazing mission and this amazing thing that I wanted to share with the world, but who am I to Who am I to put this out in the world? And I'm like, no, like you have to put this out in the world. And so it's really about kind of embodying and stepping into like that celebrity version of yourself, and that's what ends up creating that and like it really does help you settle into that in your nervous system as well.
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Hey, I'm Jana Kramer. As they say, those that cannot do teach. Actually, I think I finally got it right. So take the failures I've had the second or even third whatever, maybe the fourth time around.
I'm Jenny Garth. Twenty nine years ago, Kelly Taylor said these words, I choose me. She made her choice. She chose herself when it comes to love, choose you first.
Hi, everyone, I'm Amy Rovoch and I'm TJ.
Holmes, and we are well not necessarily relationship experts, if you're ready to dive back into the dating pool and find lasting love. Finally, we want.
To help listen to I Do Part two starting September nineteenth on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
If you watch Daunsi with the Stars.
I can say this and Karina will probably say the same thing.
I don't think that we had great dancing chemistry.
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No, she was she did.
She did super ankles warm. Get the behind the scenes of what goes down on and off the dance floor. Dancing with the Stars breeds body image issues for women. The thinner you are, the more attention you end up getting on that show.
Injuries, my phone rings, Hey Christian, Hey so business.
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Fleeing honestly got to the player. I'm like, I'm just trying to survive. I'm just trying to like make it out out of this season. Ego, she wanted to kill me. It was real bad insecurity on the show.
It was like everyone was talking about my weight and it only affected my confidence so much for five years.
To come and betrayals because of that one betrayal.
I knew this is probably my last season. Listen to Sex Lies and Spray Sauds with Cheryl Burke. New episodes every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. My name is Cheryl Burke, and I approve this message.
Hey everyone, Amy Robach here along with TJ Holmes, and we have a very exciting announcement to make to all of you.
We are expanding. We are now going to be coming to you Monday through Friday for a new part of our Amy and TJ franchise, if you will, the Morning Run. We're going to help listeners navigate the busy news cycle and the historic political season that the country is facing. And we're going to do this now each and every day.
Wow, we have a news franchise now, I like the way you put that.
We're going to be covering all the latest news headlines for all of you.
We'll have entertainment updates, and we'll even give some perspective on the current events that are happening right now. And this, by the way, is in addition to our already established bi weekly podcasts that we hope you guys are tuning into as well, with more in depth conversations and interviews, So we're gonna be with you Monday through Friday with Morning Run. Listen to Morning Run on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
I'm thinking back to your intro for your podcast, and just like your simple statement saying there needs to be more good hearted people in the entertainment industry and in a world full of narcissists, we have a need for it, like there's a duty for it in a way totally. And I think that is so helpful to reframe it like that because and I think it's relatable too, even for the people that don't want fame, if for the people that are taking leadership positions in their whatever workforce they're in, or if they're required to step on stage for a certain presentation and they feel like like that in pop syndrome, or they feel like they're not worthy enough to be talking about this so publicly.
I think if you relate.
To any of those things, I highly recommend you heading over to Whitney Elan's podcast because the way she reframes it it definitely helps break down those barriers so that you feel more confident in your mission.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
In your opinion, how can people achieve fame in a healthy way?
Hm, that's a good question. So I'm just such a believer that, you know, we really do need to build that foundation mentally to in order to hold that many people's opinions. And you know, I say, like, fame can really create a quantum leap where it's just like all of a sudden, everyone's eyeballs are on your every you know, everything, and everything changes. People start treating you differently, you start making a different amount of money, You get haters, you get people that are obsessed with you, you get like it just everything blows up so fast, yes, and can blow up so fast. Right. I like to think about your brain as it's like the roots of a plant, and if they're not healthy, then the plant is never going to be healthy. And of course you can't you're never really going to understand it until you're in that spotlight. But I think also so many people when they're creating thing, they also kind of expect that quantumly. They expect that just like zero to one hundred, where for most people it kind of does happen incrementally, right right, Like you, it kind of like you get to grow with it, and you get to unless you, you know, have a huge moment right in the spotlight, but for most people they get to kind of incrementally grow it. So it really is about retraining the way that you speak to yourself. And that's really the work for some people. That might sound easy. It's simple, but it's not easy, and especially when you have so many voices in your head from it or not even your head, literally voices online saying unlive yourself.
Yeah, how do you deal how do you deal with the haters like that?
Yeah? So, and it really does. I mean, listen, you've got a baptism by fire in this, I'm sure. But like in the theoretical world, it's building that foundation ahead of time, so that and in these little moments of practice of like oh I messed up and I did this embarrassing thing, and giving yourself the compassion for that and even and really it comes down to being willing to be misunderstood. So again, the ideal way is that you do this as you go. You're building this foundation if you want to have be a creator in the spotlight. But if it's if it doesn't happen, then we do some like subconscious rewiring to get your nervous and to feel safe again. And it really is like I just I don't know, like I think for me, because I'm not a narcissist and I do have feelings and I am empathetic. I don't think that me and comm are ever not going to bother me. Some people say that you get to a point that you do. I'm just like really sensitive though, like I'm like hyper sensitive. I'm a highly what are they call it a highly sensitive person?
Hyper sensitive?
Yeah, just like it's like everything's going to hurt my feelings constantly. So for me, it's I don't think I'm ever going to get to a point where I'm just like, oh, I don't care. But the work is like every time it comes up and I have a reaction. Again, remember your body literally goes into the same response as if someone is right there screaming at you, right, And so it's about holding space. And I think a lot of the time what can get really tricky with celebrity, with fame is like, especially if you've been canceled, is that there's people that are like, I mean, the voices are so loud, right, and it's well you deserve this. You need to be held accountable if you want to be in the spotlight. This is the price that you have to pay. You have it so good. There are people working as janitors that would love to have you know, X, Y and Z, and all of those opinions make us invalidate ourselves. And what ends up happening is again, when you go into a trauma response, your body has like a very real reaction, right. It's like the adrenaline increases, your cortisol levels rise. Your brain also knows that you're physically safe, and it kind of knows, so then it just kind of creates this experience where your body is having a very real response, your mind is telling it that that response is invalid, and it creates this like internal war zone in your body where these emotions can't process. And that's when then we say stuck. That's when. And I really think that that's why so many stars turn to maladaptive behaviors right over drinking to drugs, to alcohol. I mean I even think and or I will say so Adele just announced that she is taking a hiatus and she's like it could be up to fifteen years. She's like, this is indefinite. I don't know if or when I'll ever come back. And my thought is she's been very public about being like I don't like being famous. My thought with her, and I've never worked with her, but is that she loves singing, she loves performing, but she doesn't like the fame aspect, and so she's kind of like pushing through it, right, She's kind of like, I'm gonna do this anyway. And to me, that's kind of the equivalent of like fake it till you make it right, where it's like, well, I'll just push through, and I don't think, like I actually tell my clients, I'm like, I actually don't think you should be confident. Like confidence is usually just pushing through, pushing past your fear. But when you're a creative, you're selling your consciousness and people are literally I mean, there's that joke right that you're like selling your soul, but it's like you you actually are, Like people are actually buying your consciousness.
Oh yeah, I've never heard it said that way. You're selling your consciousness.
Yeah, And it's like can be such a positive thing, such a positive thing, It's like that's the most valuable thing in the whole world right in the whole universe. Is a person is a person's soul, is a person's consciousness. And yet if that's what has to be on display, and meanwhile you're pushing past and you're like, I hate this, this is scary, this is dangerous. You're eventually gonna just be like, I can't do this anymore, right, like if you push past it, And that's where like I think Adele is probably just like I literally can't do this anymore. Like it's you know, it's kind of like when you touch a hot stove a kid. Like if a kid touches a hot stove, they're like, oh, I don't want to do that again. That hurts, and it's like, you know, I assume that with Adele, it's like she's done it so many times and it just hurts now, and so now she's like, I just want to remove myself from the situation.
With the extreme level of fame, like we're talking Jojo Seawaw status, I could see how you either have to like adapt in a way that makes sense for you. So for like a Jojo Sewaw case, I feel like this is a child's star that has been exposed to the extreme, and she plays into it because she knows it's a job and she's been trained this way through her dance career and dance moms and it's been normalized to her and she's someone who can handle it. But then the outside criticism sees her. I don't know her fashion and some of the stuff that she posts, and she does get a lot of criticism for it, but she just pushes on through like it does. It seems like it doesn't FaZe her.
I totally agree, and I mean she's also I don't like, I'll say I've not worked with her. I don't know, but she is such an interesting case also because she did, to your point, grow up in the spotlight. And I also think that adds a different layer when you know, Hollywood loves talk about like, oh, only nefo babies make it or whatever. And I do think that there's something to be said for being taught from a young age this is a valid career path, this is a safe thing for you. This is just a part of it. Like that does actually kind of teach your nervous system that it is safe for you to be like misunderstood. I don't know. I mean we've only seen her childhood experience through Dance Moms, but it will be interesting to see how she continues to grow, because I do think to your point, it does kind of seem like she's just kind of pushing past it. And I don't I mean, I don't know. I don't want to speak for her, but I don't think that we're really wired to continually do that, and I think it would get tired and old and unfulfilling unless it literally is just a job.
For her, right.
Yeah, So it's a lot of the framing because I just watched this documentary by Demi Lovado and she's interviewing several child stars and a lot of them like Raven from that so Raven, she talks about how she knew this was a job, like it was a job and it was a way to get money and that kind of structure. Really, I mean, you go about your career in a different way.
Totally, and that can be really tricky. And that's really where to get really really freaking vulnerable, right, Like, we make bad decisions when we're in vulnerable places and when there's a power dynamic and when there's any kind of promise of what we want and any promise that that we and again, it's really sneaky. It's not like someone is coming in front of you and being like, do you want to throw away your life in exchange for a career. It's like it's not like, it's not like dry.
Yeah, it's not like what's her name from The Little Mermaid?
Ursula?
Yeah?
Yeah. Ursula is like writing up a contract for you to sign your life away and blood, knowing full full well that you're like selling your soul over and you're in this bounded contract where you can't have a voice anymore literally.
Literally yeah, no exactly. And that's the thing is, it's you fall for it when you're vulnerable, and you're vulnerable because you love something so much, you know that it's what you're meant to do, you think that it's an for me. I'll be fully transparent. I wanted to be famous because I subconsciously just wanted to be accepted by my dad, like one hundred percent. My dad did not and he's passed away, so I feel like I can say this too. He didn't give me the attention that I that I needed as a child to help with my development, and so I literally had a developmental delay of trying to get attention and a lot of I think a lot of women turn to sex for that, and like turn to men and dating, and for me, I turned to fame instead, and I turned to like trying to get attention in that way. And so it was a really it was an unhealed part of me that again just made me really vulnerable. And I think there's some truth to that for a lot of people in Hollywood, And.
I would say so, I think that that may be a common theme of maybe some sort of neglect in your childhood, and maybe it doesn't even present itself as neglect, but the way that it impacts you, you feel like you need to start seeking so sort of validation that you even exist.
One hundred percent. And to your point, it's it can be really sneaky, right. My dad was he did not abuse me, but he emotionally was not there for me, right, and he emotionally could not support me in the ways that I needed to be seen. And so that's also why again it gets a little sneaky sometimes because it's like, and again I'm not trying to compare myself to terrible things that have happened to other people, but like if a parent had like physically assaulted their child, everyone in the world would say that's wrong, and youss are pealing from that. But when it's these little things, this little neglect, this little abandonment, these moments that we needed childhood protection and we didn't receive them, they kind of slip under the surface. And that's where like, at least you know, for me, my all my maladaptive behaviors have been like I'm going to have an amazing career where no one on the outside is going to seem that and be like, oh, she's self sabotaging and she's ruining her life.
Yeah, right, And like career wise, that is something in our culture that gets even more like positive reassurance, Like if you're a workaholic, it's it's less likely to be.
A problem in other people's eyes, exactly.
And I think especially there's also this like and I'm here for it, right, Like, I mean, it wasn't until what nineteen eighty four that women could even like get a business loan, So it's like, we do need some equity and some equality for women in the workplace. But I do also think that then there's also this like women feminism movement. That then it's like it kind of sneaks under with that too, because we're like, no, I'm just like a boss woman. I'm like fighting the patriarchy by being a successful woman. And really it's like, yeah, and I'm doing this because like I don't think that I And here's another thing I guess I'll just say is that when you do this work of healing a lot of the time on the other side of it, one of two things will happen. Is one is people heal and they realize I don't need to be famous, or they heal and they realize, oh, I definitely need to be famous and I need to like help people, and it becomes and so you still and I feel like that's kind of where what the shift has been for me, where now it's like, yeah, no, I do need to do this because I have this mission and I know I can help people. But it's a job now, right Whereas to your point, it's like it wasn't before and I didn't realize that because that was all I knew. And now it's like, no, this is a job and this is like the mission and there's days that this but this is work and so you show up because this is your job, not because there's any kind of like I do think that I mean, knock all would right, We'll see, like my therapist, I guess can let you know whether or not what side of the spectrum we're on with this. But I do think that I've healed that part of me that needed the validation, and the desire for fame is still there, but it's just in a completely different way.
I love that you are trauma informed, and so I'm sure when you work with clients you are clearly so well aware of like the underlying issues that lead to wanting fame. As a resource, does it ever turn out for you working with clients that they're like, oh, no, I don't need to be famous, and then they terminate you.
Totally yeah, and I'm like, go off, No. But I love working with people through transition because there's such a difference between getting to the place I think a lot of people get to, like an adele moment where there's like I can't do this anymore. But when I'm working with someone and they come to this, I it's this empowered, embodied I am letting this go and I'm ready to move on. To the next thing, and that's such a different energy, and that's such a like more empowered place to be in. So when I'm working with people and they do decide that they want to pivot, it's because there's something else that's even more exciting to them, that is lighting them up that they're moving towards instead of just like I quit.
I love that.
Okay, last question, what do you see as a few future of celebrity culture in the age of social media and digital content creation?
Great question. I think that we you know, we're in this world now where people want a three sixty view of celebrities, right that we it's not enough. And this is why cancel culture is so prevalent, is because now again we're seeing all of these little things. And I do think cancel culture in general is going to It's already shifted a lot in the last couple of years, but I think that we're going audiences are going to have to become more empathetic to the fact that the people in the spotlight make mistakes, right, And I think that as celebrities also learn how to own their mistakes and how to move through it, then that will get that will change as well. But yeah, I do think that we want I think that there's a call for authenticity now. Like I think that we're very quick too, you know, even with like as soon as as soon as audiences feel like someone is out of touch, that's when they're like, get this person out of here, right, And so I think that we really are there is a call. I was just watching. I wish I had her handle because I would give her a shout out. But it was a creator who I've never seen before, and her whole platform is about foraging in the woods and she I believe she lives in like Ohio or something like. She's a black woman scientist who has this like random platform. And I'm like, I think that's where celebrity is going. Is where we have these these really interesting, really well informed, really intelligent people and we're putting and if those people that have, you know, something of value to share are willing to be seen and share themselves, then I think that that's I think that's what audiences are the most excited about right now.
So good Whitney, thank you so much for coming on my podcast and answering all of my questions. Head over to Whitney's podcast it's called How to Be Famous.
Yep, how to Be Famous with the newl and.
Thank you so much for listening to Rachel Gos Rogue.
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