Chapter 31: You Signed Up For This?

Published Jun 19, 2024, 4:00 AM

Rachel and former Love is Blind contestant, Jeremy Hartwell, address head on the boundaries for reality TV stars. Do reality stars deserve the good, the bad and the ugly?

This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome back to another episode of Rachel Goes Rogue. This is your host, Rachel Savannah Levis, and I'm very excited to bring on a guest today who is really making waves in this reality TV realm and bringing awareness to the issues that are obvious to all of us.

At this point.

Mental health has been something that hasn't really been discussed with reality TV, and now it's actually in the forefront of everyone's minds and we're all aware of the problem. Now we have somebody who is working on the solution. So I'm very excited to bring on my friend Jeremy who created the ut Camp Foundation. The UCAM Foundation is a nonprofit organization dedicated to advocating for the mental health and legal needs of unscripted reality TV cast members. You Can was founded by two alumni, Jeremy Hartwell and Nick Thompson of Netflix popular series Love Is Blind, along with clinical psychologists and couples therapist doctor Isabelle Morley. Jeremy is an executive director, and the UCAM Foundation have successfully helped hundreds of cast members, added dozens of verified therapists and attorneys to its network, and has opened the dialogue on the need for protections for vulnerable cast members who often find themselves exploited for ratings. Today, we're doing something a little bit different since Jeremy is obviously full of knowledge and experiences in this world, and I obviously am the host of this podcast, but my producers are here as well to ask questions, and I want to get in on this dialogue too, because we both have experienced a lot when it has come to reality TV and how it has impacted our lives and our thoughts and feelings on it all. So I'm having my producers here and we're gonna bring in Jeremy. Welcome, Jeremy Heartwell, I'm very happy to have you here.

It's good to see you again.

Yeah, good to see you too.

Yes.

The last time I spoke to Jeremy was that the Hollywood and Mind Summit in Los Angeles, and it was very refreshing to see so many people advocating for the rights of past members and there was still the need for that discussion to be had around reality TV stars, but I felt like Jeremy and I were there to kind of be that representation and get more knowledge on it and see where we can implement what they were talking about in the entertainment industry and how to apply that into this issue that we're seeing with reality TV stars.

Yeah, I think you guys were definitely popular there. They were very interested in you, both in your stories and your perspectives, and that's kind of why we want to have this conversation today. So I'm going to ask some questions and you're going to start out sort of being targeted towards you, Jeremy, and I want more of a conversation between the two of you. Rachel already did a brilliant introduction on what you Can is, but I'd like to hear from you in your short form what is you Can?

Yeah, and first of all, thanks so much for having me on the show here. I'm really excited to talk to both of you. You Can is a nonprofit that I found it as at its highest lene. It's a cast advocacy group, and I started it basically because when I came out of filming, it was really hard for me to find any support, both from a mental health and a legal perspective, but also just cast community. Obviously, I knew the cast members from my season and it was great talking to them but there's literally tens of thousands of reality TV cast members across the past couple of decades, and the ability to reach out to them, to talk to them, to discuss, to share things just wasn't there. So I wanted to start something that really brought people together and gave them the resources they needed to not just like get back to baseline from before the shows, but to actually succeed in prive.

That's sounds great, And about how many people have you sort of worked with and helped today?

Yeah, that's a really good question. We've talked to between myself and Nick Thompson, who's the other co founder. He was a cast member on my as well, probably a lot well more known than I am. But we've talked to probably over two hundred cast members at this point, and a lot of them are just looking for a community, right They're looking for someone to share their story. I had a cast member from a it was a you know, one of those business entrepreneurship shows that were more popular, you know, a couple of years ago to a decade ago. He had not told people a certain story, a traumatic event, for ten years. I was the first person he opened up to because he felt that no one else could understand, and he was so grateful just to be able to share his story with somebody who could empathize. There wasn't really anything else beyond that, and I think that's a lot of what we're seeing is people just want to talk, they want to share, they want that community. But more importantly, we are also succeeding in the areas where we want to talk. We want to link CAST members up with the mental health and legal resources that they need, not just want, but need, and we've added well over one hundred therapists to our network. We interview them, we bring them on board, we make sure that they're qualified to talk to CAST members, and we've also partnered with some very prominent attorneys, and to date we've helped several people basically defend themselves from unfair allegations or lawsuits by an industry that's trying to keep everybody quiet because they don't want the dirty laundry air. When people speak up and talk about these things, they get sued. And even if there's no basis for the lawsuit, you still have to pay a lawyer to defend yourself, right, And so the tactic there generally is to just keep people quiet because they don't have the means to defend themselves, so they'll just stop talking.

Jeremy, let's talk about that. I'm gonna interrupt. But reality has been around for a while.

Now.

Why is that suddenly this is happening and there's a need for organizations like you can't? Why now?

Yeah, that's a great question, and I think you have to look at other areas in the industry or other issues that have come up that have for decades, and it takes a long time for some of these things to come to the forefront. Right, And I'm not equating this to the me Too movement, but it's similar in that regards. Right, that abuse, that victimization had been going on for decades. Right, just because it didn't come to the forefront until recently, doesn't mean it wasn't an issue for decades. And it's a similar thing here. Part of the reason is you have these very heavy handed arbitration clauses in these contracts, and you have aggressive and assertive and powerful, well funded production companies who they use these arbitration agreements to essentially keep any dispute private. So what an arbitration clause is basically if you have an issue with the production company or if you have an issue with something in the contract. Basically what it says is you're not allowed to file a public dispute. You have to bring it up privately, and we're going to tell you who the arbiters are going to be, and they're going to be the ones making the decision. Whatever the decision is, whether we have to pay you money as damages or whether nothing comes of it. It remains sealed so it never gets out in the public. And I think if you look back, you can see like little drips of this over decades, right, You'll see a little story here or there about something coming out, but you never get the details because it's always been handled in arbitration. And that's one of the things we're trying to change. And that's one of the things we're working to change, is to try to find a way to get these out of arbitration, to get cash members empowered to speak their truth and own their narrative.

Would you say, and actually, Rachel, you can speak to this too, because I think this has affected you as well. Is that to what you were just mentioning? The idea is that they're using their power. They're using their money, they're using their expertise against people they hope have none of that right, and so the power dynamic is obviously is obviously skewed. And I feel it's that they are counting on the fact that you don't know the laws, and Rachel, you had experience in that area.

Yeah, but I feel like there's laws protecting people from being able to speak out about abusive situations in the workplace, and it just seems like they're really trying to pull a fast one on a lot of people who don't have the resources to defend themselves, and they're doing it as a way. It's a scare tactic to prevent other people from speaking out. Like I've spoken to multiple people who have experienced stuff and they're too scared to say anything about it, And I wish I could have them on my podcast, and maybe one day I will, But it's very unfortunate that people are afraid to speak out about it.

So this is actually to both of you, what do you say, because we hear this a lot. I know Rich you've heard a lot. I'm sure Jeremy you hear it on a day to day basis. Oh, poor reality stars they signed up to be on this show. They know what they were signing up for. Why do they need help or why should we feel sorry for them? How would you guys answer that?

I guess like I'll, I do get this a lot. And I you know, on the one hand, I understand that perspective. As a viewer, you only see this tiny glimpse of what's happening. And not only that, the information that you have about the process, right, anything outside of the show, most of that is propaganda that's been fed to you by these production companies so that they can keep their image and they can keep their squeaky clean, and they can shift the blame and blame the victims. Right. So like I empathize and I understand what that perspective. I think there's no reason why most people would have a different perspective. But that's why you can is so important. That's why this conversation is so important. We've there is not a single cast member I have talked to that said they were they like everything they were told, everything in the contract matched their experience. The mismat is massive, right, What they tell you, what you sign up for, what you read in the contract is not even close to indicative of what actually happens. And that's one of the issues right there, is if you're not getting this full disclosure, you do you literally right, and I mean I mean that in the proper sense. You literally do not know what you're signing up for. But you also have no way of finding out because they have these very strong non disclosure agreements, so you can't even find out from somebody else. And you know, I think the other aspect of that is to viewers, it's one it's time to believe the victims. All the cast members that are speaking up, they're all saying the exact same thing.

Yeah, And in your case, it's a little bit different than my situation with vander Pump rules. When people here like, oh, cast members need more rights or there needs to be changed, they become afraid that people like you want to take down Reality TV and to like completely change it and it won't be entertaining anymore. What do you have to say to somebody that has that belief?

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think, first of all, to put any fears to rest, we're not trying to kill reality TV. I think you know, it's a it's obviously a popular form of entertainment, and you know, I don't personally blame anybody for enjoying reality TV. It's something that a lot of people like, and it adds positive value to people's lives to watch it. So, but I think it's important to understand we're not asking for anything special. We're not we're not trying to demand that cast members get something special. We're asking for basic human rights. And like, I pause there because it's so critical and it's so important. So as a viewer, you have a day job, right, You're allowed to go to the bathroom when you want to. You can take a break, you can go for a walk outside if you need a little bit of sunlight. Right you You're allowed to go home and get eight hours of sleep. These are basic human We're allowed to eat when you want. These are basic human rights. And it's a lot of things that are that cast members are systemically deprived of across all shows and all genres, and like even on like a vander Pump Rules, it's still it's a lesser degree, but there's still a lot of things that are taken away from you. You know, from our conversations and from what you've told me it's similar in that regard. And again, the important thing to keep in mind for viewers is we're all we're asking for is that production companies treat cast members like people. That's that's literally it. It's it doesn't seem like it should be a very high bar. And I think if any if anybody understands that and doesn't think that that should be the case or is offended by that, I quite honestly don't want you in our corner.

But let's talk about that for a minute, because that's a really good point. Do you see the and this is to both of you, the climate changing of the viewer, because I feel like you see so much. What used to be really voyeuristic we would watch and it would be a guilty pleasure is now participatory. And I think Rachel, you've said on past podcasts that what the fans are seeing and their emotions and the anger that is, you know, sort of drawn, you know, stirred up. Do you feel that's impacting the end result and maybe why people aren't feeling sorry or not that's not necessarily the right word, but feeling compassion towards those that are going through it. Do you think the climate has changed for the viewer towards reality.

Yeah, and I want to.

Back up just a little bit to what Jeremy was saying, and we can.

Tie this in production.

Reading cast members as humans is not that big of an ask. And I feel like, personally, I have felt like production has treated me as a human and encouraged me to speak out and share my side of the story whatever that may be a little manipulative at times, but still treating me like a human. The part where I have an issue in my experience from how this scandal rocked the nation.

It was like I was no.

Longer a human in their eyes, the way that they allowed people to speak about me, and I pushed further these lies to excel this narrative that suited them, and I felt like I was ejectified, and that was I was no longer a human and they weren't seeing me as like, oh, there's a an actual person on the receiving end of all of this hate. Totally, it was just like a means to an end to get ratings. All they could see was dollar signs and it was like that personally, I feel like it was that greed that was the motivator in the drive and it took priority over all else and so that's where it hurts. That hurts me because I became a character and not a human being.

Good point well, and actually too too. The other one of the other points that Jerry made about believing the victim, It wasn't until Rachel came out with her scenario as the result of what she just described and got treatment for mental health issues and anxieties, et cetera, that then the network came out and sort of put disclaimers saying that they had mental health efficause they didn't have that for you. Correct, Rachel, No, they did it.

They did not.

And now then, funnily enough, this season really focus a lot on everybody's mental health and that was all as a result of your noise, your conversations.

Well, yeah, it's especially frustrating when we see Tom Sandoval get these this like special treatment for expressing that he has dark thoughts, and none of that was extended in the same regard towards me. In fact, you know, production was willing to go the extra mile and get my dog involved when that did not need to happen. And it's just like very gut wrenching and disgusting to think about, and the disclaimers that we see feel like we should also disclaim the abuse that you see between cast members on the show and the unhealthy relationship dynamics because all of that is being normalized on reality TV too. And Jeremy, I mean, what is your stance on that. Do we want to see this change in reality TV? Or is it more so the production to the cast relationship.

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I'm gonna I'm going to back up a little bit first and just add some context that I think it's so important for viewers to understand that while reality TV or a better term is unscripted, right, While unscripted right, nobody's memorizing a script, it's still produced. And that's really really important for people to understand, right, because when they're watching you on the screen, or they're watching anybody on the screen, not only are viewers only seeing a tiny sliver of what's happening, they're seeing the angle that the producers want them to see, right. And you know, it could also and that's that's the best case scenario. It could even get so bad that you're just totally misrepresented in a way that never happened. And a really good example is, I mean, everybody listening to this has probably hopefully laughed at one point today, right. So imagine if you're on a reality TV show and you have cameras in front of you for anywhere from like eight to fifteen hours a day, they're going to capture you laughing. Right. All they have to do is take another clip of let's say, an off color joke or something like something, an offensive joke, right, and then cut to you laughing at that joke, right. And that laugh could have happened three days beforehand, or maybe three days after, it doesn't matter. They stitch that together. They make it seem like you're laughing at that joke, and now all of a sudden, you are that person, even though that event never actually happened. And the really insidious thing is, and this is again, I've read a bunch of contracts from a bunch of different shows, in a bunch of different genres, and they all basically say the same thing is, we're allowed to say production, right. We production are allowed to say anything we want. We're allowed to defame you. It says that in a lot of these contracts, and you cannot say anything to the contrary. You're not allowed to defend yourself, you're not allowed to clear the air, you're not allowed to tell your truth, and if you do, we're going to sue you. And that really irks me because it's if you own anything in this life, it's your own narrative, like it's your own life, it's your own journey. The fact that they're taking that away from us and taking it away from people, it should infuriorate people. And the fact that they threaten people with lawsuits if they do try to take that back. So I think it circles back to this notion that how you're portrayed is a produced effort that can go anywhere from like adhering somewhat close to reality to being a totally contrived situation that didn't happen. And viewers have to also understand the cast is not allowed to speak to say the truth, They're not allowed to go against the story in the narrative, or they're going to get sued. And that's where the fear. And so I think disclaimers can go a long way. And we have these disclaimers around, you know, like based on a true story, you have a disclaimer like, hey this you know, this is based on actual events but has been dramatized for entertainment purposes. Right, Why can't we put something like that on top of it? And why aren't we allowing cast members to say, Hey, this is what they showed for entertainment, but let me tell you what actually happened. Right? We allow scripted actors to do that. Right. You have all sorts of actors playing villains, right, really bad characters. Imagine if that industry forced them to take on that character as their entire life now right now they're a villain, Right, that's ridiculous. The fact that this industry is not allowing that same thing. I don't see how it takes away from the entertainment value. I don't see how it takes away from profitability. All it does is add some humanity in, some compassion and some empathy to it. Right, Why can't we do that?

Yeah? Well, I was actually going to ask the question about something that anybody that was ever considering being on a reality show, that you might warn them, But you hit on a lot. But I'd like to ask you each to give me one thing that you would use as a warning to somebody or something they should know about if they were considering going on a reality TV show.

It's risky. Really look at the risk versus reward. I think if you have a game plan going on a reality TV show and you're using it as a means to an end to launch some sort of business and know exactly who you are and what boundaries you have in place for yourself, and you're okay with people misunderstanding you, and you also are okay with the risk that you may be the villain, then go for it because it's a means to an end. And if you're strong enough to do that, just you know, like what, you would have to have thick skin and kind of.

Know what you're getting yourself into. But if that's not the case, it's difficult because.

You know, I went into this like not having a brand or a business or a vision for anything like that. And I feel like a lot of people who do join reality shows like vander Pump Rules anyway, have that type of business mindset, and they are seeing it as a way to propel themselves into fame and to use fame as a resource for me. I just thought it would be a good opportunity to step outside of my comfort zone and develop my making skills and overcome social anxiety and have a little fun and get paid for living my life. And I truly thought it was real, and through time I've experienced different types of things that show that it's not quite that. It also puts you in a vulnerable position. With a show like Real Housewives or vander Pump Rules, with recurring cast, you're creating relationships with these people and your life becomes completely enmeshed with the storylines and what is happening and being presented to the rest of the world. So it's very confusing, and it allows for yourself to be more vulnerable to manipulation.

And that is producer's middle name.

You know what that just made me think of and tied with what you just said, Rachel, and with Jeremy alluded to a little bit earlier. The rest of the world look at athletics, look at I nil deals, name, image, likeness, They're giving them back to the athletes, right, So all the big organizations are giving the power to the athletes. This is one of those industries that's still holding. Like to your point, they own it and Rachel, you and I have a well all of us have a mutual reality star friend who was talking about she'd been off the shows for like ten years and she went to Australia and her face was on the billboards. Like, when you sign those agreements, they're owning that. And to your point, jarm me, your life and your journey should be the one thing you are guaranteed to own. But once you sign those contracts, you don't have that anymore.

Yeah, it's and again, whether that's legal or not is not. You know, a conversation I can have, but I don't think it's ethical. I don't think it's right. And you know, to answer your question, you know, I have a caution and then advice for anyone considering reality TV. And this spins off of what Rachel was saying is producers are not your friend. They they are there because you fit a certain character, archetype, and a storyline, and they're there to produce your storyline. Their motivation is ratings and profit. Right, they it might work out that they can be totally friendly and nice to you while that happens, right, that could be a happy coincidence, But the bottom line is they are not your friend. And what makes that even worse is they their job is to make it seem like they're your best friend. So you tell them all their secrets so they know all of your buttons and so that they can have the easiest job that they have to push you in the storyline in the direction that they want you to go. Right. So my caution is, like, never confuse the friendliness of a producer with actual friendship. Understand the dynamics, Understand their incentives. And I'm not saying they're bad people, right, you know, there probably are some bad producers, but really they're operating within a system that incentivizes them in a certain way. And so understand the incentives. Understand that they're not incentivized to be your friend. They're incentivized to produce you based upon a storyline that was often predetermined for you. And so that's an important caution, and you know, to sort of give you the flip side of that coin, my advice would be find other cast members to reach out to, ideally like on a previous season from the same show, or really any cast member from any show is going to be able to give you good advice. And that's again, that's one of the reasons that you can't exist is we're trying to facilitate that communication.

So this I have a question for both of you. Has your personal experience tainted the way that you watch reality TV as a whole? And can you even or do you even watch any reality TV?

I watch Love on the Spectrum, and I like that show because I don't know, it's just very sweet and innocent, and it just seems like, you know, these people who are on the autism spectrum are navigating a dating world and you wouldn't really experience that unless you have like a sibling or a family member who you can kind of like know that type of information. But I just find it very endearing. But to answer your question, no, I don't love watching reality TV shows. I did watch during the pandemic, and I guess when people are talking about a reality TV show so much, it's.

Kind of like this is what everyone's talking about.

Like I need to be in the know so I know what these conversations are so I could see how like everyone got on the bandwagon on watching vander pump Rolls that season ten. But yeah, it definitely has tainted the way I view reality TV. I can normally tell with the audio if something had been inserted as a wildline into a scene, and I question, like, oh, did that person really make that facial movement when they're showing that, Like I question everything, and so I don't know.

I just don't see it as real.

So it's I take everything with a grain of salt when I watch that, and I hardly watch it because that makes sense. A lot of them are toxic too, Like I'm watching I'm watching The Valley just so I can be in the know with that, and I have a friend on there, and it's a lot, it's it's heavy, and I don't know if I want to spend my time consuming that kind of stuff.

Yeah, it's so interesting what you're talking about with like trying to pick out the different scenes of like was that played fuller? And the scene after? Like what about that glass of water? Like is that higher now? Like I think to a lot of people that might sound like paranoia, but to people who have gone through that experience, it's not. It's the truth. Like, so you start to become really sensitive to finding those things. And at this really interesting point me personally, I didn't really watch reality TV before. It's changed my perception quite a bit. Obviously in terms of like how it's produced, the ethical implications of it. So I don't really watch it much either. Again, it's not really a difference or a change from prior to show. I think it's just my understanding of how it's produced has changed my perspective on like reality TV in general. And again, you know, going back to what you said about watching Love on the Spectrum, Rachel, I think it's I you know, you clearly it's an enjoyable show, Like there's some purity and some innocence there, right, And again I think back to one of the first points. We're not trying to get rid of reality TV. There's there's good entertainment, there's good shows out there. But imagine if you can watch these shows and just feel confident knowing they were produced ethically and the cast we're taking care of. You can't right now, that's the problem. Imagine if you could watch one of these shows, any of these shows, and know for a fact, hey, like I'm just watching the on screen drama, Like people are going to be people. You don't. You don't need to deprive them of sleep for them to get dramatic. You don't. You don't need to create fake scenarios with frank and biting and you know, cuts from different days in a single conversation to create the drama. People aren't freaking dramatic, Like, let that drama shine through.

Yeah.

Human behavior is the part that is so fascinating with unscripted TV. It's like we're getting a peek into someone else's life that lives completely different than maybe we do, and we're like, oh, I wonder what it's like to walk in their shoes, and it's just interesting people living and it doesn't need to be something so like more than that and twisted and so manipulative, and it messes with your mind. I swear like every single cast member on vanderpump Rule has been. There's a little bit of a screw loose for all of us because when you're on a recurring cast, you start to have this feeling like, Okay, I'm not in control of my own narrative, So what am I going to do to take back some of my control? You start self producing and then that's also when fans are reacting now to like why are the cast self producing?

This is not like what we want to see.

It's not authentic, and it's it's hard though, because it's like you self produce because you want to take back your control on your own image and your narrative, and it's just this loop cycle.

So recently a network came out speaking to the fans, actually reminding them that the contestants or the reality stars are having an experience and to be kind, do you think that's a tiny hint of change on behalf of the networks towards the scenario or what do you think about that?

I think it's a signal that the narrative is changing, right, because it's a reaction. They didn't do this on their own, like that that's the first kind of flag that we should look at. It took pressure for them to do something that should have been happening all along, right, But I personally worry about, you know, corporate whitewashing, which is where you create an image of change or an image of improvement to satisfy the outcry without actually doing anything about it. And like, I don't know this particular studio that put out the statement, but I you know, it's very possible and very likely that this same studio, their social media team is actively promoting the events, the narrative, the structures, the vitriol against cast members, right, So it really seems like that's kind of you know, it's it's disingenuous because on the one hand they're saying, oh, please be kind, but on the other hand, they're like, oh, well, this person is the villain, you should hate them, right, And that's a bit of an exaggeration. But these these social these massive social media teams do fuel that, and until they stop fueling that, that's not real change. You're just covering it up. And I think the second point I want to make is you can't let them police themselves. And again, it all comes down to incentives. And we're capitalist society. If we want to talk about late stage capitalism, that's a whole different podcast. But the point is the only incentive right now is profit maximization, in maximizing shareholder value. There's a law in the books that says you have to maximize sharehold their value. Right. You can literally go to jail if you don't in extreme cases. So, like, you have to look at the incentives and you have to realize that under this system, under these incentives, the companies policing themselves like this, it doesn't work because there's no incentive to actually enforce it. So what we need is we need a third party who is not affiliated, it's not paid for by the company, to ensure that these things are actually happening and these changes are actually being made. We I would you know, I would caution, and I would ask everybody to question any sort of change that is self policing.

That's a really good point, Rachel. I would think that that really resonates with you too, because you know, in your show, everybody on that show had affairs and had whatevers, and none of it got to the point that your situation did. And once the genie was out of the bottle, so to speak, the pot was stirred through the social media banter in the direction on the media. Would you agree with that, Rachel.

Yeah, I mean, as Jeremy was speaking, it kind of flashed me back to last summer when Lisa supposedly went on Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen and was telling people that remember, these are people, these are real lives that we're talking about. And it was major, major damage control because my publicist was in contact with them specifically saying like, hey, you guys, you need to like reel it in because this girl, this young woman has been chramatically affected by all of this hate that she's put herself in a mental health facility and it's like an actual facility, and now you're saying that it's not. It's just like a spaw vacation that she's on to like implement more of that hatred. And you know, and I think the goal to production wise, their strategy is to share all of the different stories, right for the most part, because different people will connect to different characters on the show, and then that gets more people to comment and defend their side and what they believe. And the more commentary, the better the ratings and the higher crisis that they can sell advertisement space for.

And it's all that's the whole game.

Like the documentary where they were talking about the negative comments creates more dopamine than the positive scaleponent, right, so then everybody goes down that rabbit hole. That's exactly what you're referring to.

Yeah, that documentary is called fifteen Minutes of Shame and it's directed by Monich Klewinski.

You guys should definitely check it out.

You know what you mentioned about them trying to warp the narrative around where you went like a spa. That's again another example of them trying to own your story, your life story. They're trying to own that. Why because if you really do you know you did, but like if they admit that you checked into a legitimate like mental health retreat where you like turned off your phone and it was like super serious, that looks really really bad for them, right, really bad. And not only that, if they can spin it as you going to this like oh this hooty tooty spa thing, right, I'm just getting manicures and stuff and we're calling you mental health but it's really not whatever, if they can spin it like that, that also like fuels the narrative they're trying to create for you, like spoiled, out of touch, like all these things, right, And again that's that's another one of the problems they even they're even bringing in stuff that they should have no control to try to warp and change how you're perceived. And if they really cared about if they really cared about cast mental health, they wouldn't do that.

And that is it. That is it.

That is the thing, because if they did support me and the way that every single human being deserves to be supportive. Maybe there would have been a world where I would have gone back to the show. Maybe I would have felt supported enough to go back and been like, Hey, this is my story. I can own that, and I want to share that with other people, because I truly do believe that representing that peace and like being the other woman is a shameful.

Thing, but it's a thing that happens.

And if you can own that and share that and like and be that for somebody else to relate to on their television screen, that's everything that I want. But I didn't feel supported in the way that I deserve to be supported. And there is no way in how I was going to go back to that knowing that they don't care.

Yeah.

No, no. And actually, to take that a step further, we presented them with an opportunity to look to look like the leaders in mental health for when Rachel came out, to be able to shed light on the stigmatization of mental health and treatment for mental health, and we wanted to be able to share that journey with the network, and they would have looked like heroes be in the forefront of that. And and I honest thickness. Don't think it would have impacted what they did the next day going back to film, but they still would have had really positive you know, if they weren't interested in that, because that's what money is, I guess.

And Rachel, what I've always admired about you and the conversations you're having is you've you've owned up to the mistakes, right, Like it's not like you're trying to say, oh, I didn't do anything wrong, like you're You're human. We all make mistakes, right, and you're taking responsibility for that. And I think that that just adds to the credibility of your message, right. You're not trying to run or hide from things. What you're trying to do is you're trying to present them in an empathetic light, in a realistic light, and in a way that can help people going forward. And I think that, you know, it's so frustrating that the network didn't want to partner with you in doing that, because Juliette, to your point, like the one one of the messages I keep trying to convey as as you know, as overtly as possible whenever I get the platform, is this change is coming, right, this is this is a disruption in the industry. It's not going to stop. It might take a while, but it's not going to stop. And if you you know, if you look at the history of disruptions and successes and who survives disruptions and who doesn't, it's the companies that embrace the disruption and beside to become part of the conversation and have like, have a have a partnership in helping to frame and create the next stage. Right, if you look at Harvard Business Review, like hundreds of Harvard Business Review cases over decades are littered with situations where an industry fought disruption and they died. Right, So, like, I would love it if one of these studios, one of these companies reached out to us and say, hey, we know we need to change. We would like to work with you and partner with you in bringing about that change, because it's you know you can. Is never about opposition. The fastest way to change is to partner with the industry. I would love nothing more than for one of these people to say, hey, we would love to partner with you can to make this a better industry. Right, that would be a dream come true.

So on that note, which was very positive. Jeremy, I think you have some other positive news to share with Rachel.

Yeah, we've been talking about this for a while, Rachel. When I think again, you know, I've admired your message and your platform ever since you started talking about it. But we would love it if you would partner with you CAN and bring you Can's message to your platform and really just share the spirit of trying to get CAST members just the basic of human rights represented, like mental health, all these things. Right, we're align in this mission and I would love it so much if you would join you CAN as a CAST ambassador.

I would be honored too.

Yeah, that is awesome, And I want to ask for cast members, future cast members, past cast members that are listening and want to reach out and get help, like how do they go about contacting the u CAN Foundation and what can they expect resource wise?

Yeah, that's a great question. So you can dm us on our Instagram the Underscore you can Underscore Foundation if you just type it in your fine so you can dm us there. You can email me directly. My email is Jeremy at Ucnfoundation dot org. You can go to our website you Canfoundation dot Org submit a form there. But the bottom line is like, we want to help you, We want to reach out to you, we want to talk to you. I will personally talk to you. Just reach out to us in want of these channels and you get a conversation with me. Hopefully Rachel, you'll be involved in some of these as well. And again, we have partners in the mental health space, we have partners in the legal space. So if you have issues, if you have something that you're not quite sure how to resolve, we can help you with that. And the other thing we're doing is we're on the very front end of this, but we're trying to build an entire we'll call it a curriculum. Right, So, like, how do you succeed in reality TV from cradle to grave from the moment you think you want to be on reality TV to you've finished filming and you want to brand yourself, you want to be social media successful? Like, what are the lessons? What are the things that we can give you to empower you to do that while also protecting your legal rights and protect giving you the information you need to leave it in a in the best mental state that you can. Right. So, again we're a brand new nonprofit. It's been just a bit over a year. We're still trying to find our footing. But again, we just want to build this community. And I would love it if you're a cast member, If you're thinking about becoming a cast member, talk to us.

That's awesome.

And like you said, change is coming and people are talking about mental health and it's so refreshing to know that people care about this, and like in the entertainment industry especially, and people even watch old shows like America's Next Top Model and Jersey Shore and they're just like pulled on some of the things that.

Were normalized back then.

So yeah, we have shifted as a society and a culture, and or I should say we have shifted as a society and the mental health culture has become more in the forefront. So it's only a matter of time before we will see some sort of change. But it's incredible having the UK Foundation be in the forefront of that for unscripted TV. And when I was in the meadows dealing with all of this stuff and really like reconnecting with myself and praying for my future, I came out of the meadows and one of my friends that I met in there sent me a clip It was Nick Thompson talking about his experience, and there was like a clip of you, Jeremy speaking on the situation and this UCAM foundation, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this didn't.

Exist before I went into the meadows, Like this.

Is so cool that it's very much in alignment with the times. And I'm just very grateful to have been able to connect with you guys and to have been able to get the resources that I needed to speak freely about my experience, because if I didn't have that, my life could have looked completely different. And I just feel like having a voice is so important and it's something that I've worked my whole life to find. So I thank you guys for helping me be able to speak on my experience.

Absolutely, and I'm so grateful that you're part of you CAN. I think we're so mission aligned and that I was that hit home so much when I was out in California and we were just chatting and talking. I think we're of this mind that just because we went through an experience doesn't mean other people should like we can. Our bad experience can be leveraged to make the world a better place and ultimately that's what we're trying to do here.

Well, thank you Jeremy, thank you guys for listening and tuning in, and I hope you learned something new today or maybe your perspective has shifted a little bit, or if you need some resources, hopefully we helped you out and could direct you.

Into place that it's useful for you.

Thanks Staring Me, Thanks Rachel.

Thank you so much for listening to Rachel gos Rogue.

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