Rick Rubin

Published Jul 8, 2020, 4:01 AM

He has coined himself the great "Reducer". However, his imprint on hip hop can not be reduced. Rick Rubin established one of the greatest record labels of all time, which we know as Def Jam and has been going ever since. His sound has been requested by the greats of our time. From the LL Cool J, Red Hot Chilli Peppers to Kanye West and the Dixie Chicks to Mick Jagger and more. Rick Rubin is the guru of sound. He is also one of Questlove Supreme's most awaited and anticipated interviews. Yes, class is back in session so take a seat!

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Questlove Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of courts Love Supreme. My name is cost Love. We're here today with Layah Sugar, Steve Unpaid, Bill and vun tigelow Um. Hello. I will say that our guest today is world renowned h He's a world renowned reducer. Those are his words, not my words, world renowned reducer. Um from establishing one of the greatest hip hop labels in history, def champ Uh to working with all the greats from Red Out, Chili Pepper, Tom Petty, There's Slayer, there's the Cult, There's Kanye West, There's Dixie Chicks, There's Mick Jagger, There's Neil Diamond, there's uh the Roots. I'm putting it back there anyway. Please welcome the guru of music to Quest Love Supreme, the Normal, Rick Ruby. Thank you for doing our show today. Finally, where are you? Where are you currently right now? Rick? I am right now in Kauai on lockdown. Is that's a place to be on lockdown? Do you consider is that home for you? Or is it just like Okay, if I have to be on lockdown, I'd rather be in this particular environment. We mainly live in Malibu and spend some time here, usually in the winter, and this year the winter extended because of the lockdown, so it seemed like a better place to be on lockdown. Okay, are you able to operate under your sort of your creative guys at least in in Kauai or are always toys in l A toys or in l A. But we have a set up here that's working working well. You have you have an extensive history, So I was debating with myself whether or not to do the normal cron logical thing or should we just go kama kaze because there's so many stories I want to learn about your production. But I do want to know about your introduction to music. First of all, where were you born? Long Beach, Long Island? Long Beach, Long Island? Is that where you're born on? Pay bill? No, I was just born on Long Island. Shout out to Long Island. Okay, alright, Birds of a Feather, that's cool. What was your the very first record that you purchased? I remember buying. I don't remember what was the first one, but I remember the experience of buying seven inches. Um, I can remember shopping for forty five in Times Square store in Oceanside and uh Snoopy versus the Red Baron may have been one of them, but I don't I don't remember exactly what the record was. What was What was the moment that you realize that, okay, uh, I'd like a space in the music world, or that's what I want to do. I don't know that I ever had that feeling. I mean, I knew that I loved it, and I knew that it would be a huge part of my life, but I never thought it would be my job. I didn't think that was I didn't think that was a realistic possibility. I was going to have a real job and that would support my music, have it. What were you planning on becoming? I was on track. My parents had me on a track to be a lawyer. That would have been there there wish, their wish would have either been a doctor or a lawyer, and I was always afraid of blood. I don't know. And then I thought, oh, well, there are lawyers involved in the music industry, so maybe I could be involved in that way because I'd have to have a job. But my real love is music. But I didn't know anyone who did music as a job. I didn't think that was a real thing. What were your parents? My dad was a businessman, store owner, my mom was a housewife. Is Rick Rubin your birth name? Frederick J. Ruben is the name I was born with, but I was called Grick from the time I was a kid, no one, No one ever called me anything else. Yeah, you would have been attorney at law. Yeah, that's why that's a that's a lawyer's name. Okay, I get it. I know. There's there's a story that I heard about once performing at CV Gebs and it was less than desirable, and I believe the end result was your father coming down from Long Island, but he was dressed as a cop. Did I make up that story in my mind or something? I don't remember ever telling that story, but the story is around and it may be rooted in something that actually happened. I have a vague memory of it, but I don't remember. I can't I can't remember telling the story, but I think it might happened. I think. I think the story that I heard was that you were in a band called the Pricks. I believe, and either it's kind of like you know a modern show time at the Apollo story where the opening actor or another act brings all their fans down. They were heckling you guys. You guys only did like two songs, and then to give revenge on the other band, your dad came down dressed as a cop, trying to shut the show down or something like that. Nothing, nothing like that happened. That was Yeah, that's story. I didn't know that was an urban legend or for real, that's that's an urban legend. But in the sort of theatrical punk rock pandemonium of making a show more exciting, it is possible that my dad dressed as a cop to stop the show, our show, not to affect anyone else because it would have. It just created a something. I can remember the time we did a show where we worked it out for the sprinkler, the fire sprinklers to go off during the show and just create a general sense of pandemonium in the room. And what were you were you? Um, what instrument did you play in the band? Guitar? Are you guitars? Okay, I did, I was not. I wouldn't say it was a guitarist, but I played the guitar. You played the guitar being being as that we rarely get guests on the show that we're really really of the age, and I mean like in their in their early twenties at least in New York City. Much as much as made about the legend of of what night nightlife culture was in New York City and because you had like one ft playing in cb GBS, I don't know about your history of dance arria or those hip hop clubs at the time, but he just briefly described what the environment was like in the first half of the eighties as far as club life is concerned, Like, do you see it with fond memories? Now? Was it the best time ever? Are you one of those people that are like, oh man, New York in the early eighties, there's nothing like it ever, like these romanticized feelings about it. Yes, it was an incredible time and we would go out every night and uh, there was very little hip hop at that time. You couldn't really see hip hop. You can only see hip hop one night a week. But we went out every night and you would see, um, there was a thriving uh dance music scene that would have had like groups like Liquid Liquid, and E. S G. And Conk. You got to see them in person all everybody I saw. What were they like? Incredible? Like E. S G. What were they like? It was just all around the base. It was sort of like a If you think about it looking back, it would be you'd say, it was a pretty boring show. But the group was incredible. But it wasn't like a wasn't a show like putting on a show. It was like people in a band standing on stage and playing their songs. So it wasn't theatrical in any way. E. S. G. As I recall, I think I saw them play at Dance Teria if I remember correctly, Wow. But you we would go like if a band was playing at Irving Plaza, we'd go to Irving Plaza. For a band playing at the Mud Club, we'd go to the Mud Club. Maxis, Kansas City. I caught the tail end of Maxis Kansas City. I saw James White and the Blacks play there. I saw Devo play there. I saw Wayne County maybe Jane County at that time. I saw so many great shows. I saw the Bad Brains play at CBGBs. I saw the Bad Blains Brains play at Irving Plaza. I saw a minor Threat play at Irving Plaza. I saw the Cramps, which was my very first technically punk rock show at Irving Plaza, and then there'd be a gig at the Garden. I remember seeing David Bowie at Madison Square Garden in the same night seeing the Bad Brains after at CBGBs. That would be a typical it was. It was an incredible time to be a fan of music, and there was both this live performance scene of music, and then there was also this incredible ants music scene with places like Danceteria than Area Um. The garage was still going on, so really you could you could get very different experiences, even on the same night, going from club to club. And then when hip hop started bubbling, the only place you could really see it downtown was at the Grille, which was reggae club on Avenue A. I believe I remember correctly. I think it was either sadly first it was down a flight of stairs. Is it still there, Yeah, it's still there, but it's open shadow what shadow of what it used to be. But that's the place that I used to go to see Jazzy j and uh Africa, Islam and Busy Be and Treacherous three and everybody played there, and it was one night a week Tuesday, KLB Productions, Cool Lady Blue, And then when it got big, after it got big, then they moved it to the Roxy and that was one night a week th Rocks. I went to the Roxy the first night ever that it was hip hop, and it was this giant roller rink with maybe I don't know, there were maybe fifty of us there for the first night, and then it ended up just watching it grow every week and get bigger and bigger and bigger until it it became what it became. You know. So I know about your dorm being def Jam's headquarters, but what was your major at n y U when you were attending. I started as a philosophy major, and after two years I switched to film and television because, as I said, I was planning on going to law school. You don't need a particular undergrad the degree you have undergraduate degree doesn't matter to get into law school. And most of my friends that I liked hanging out with were in film school and that just seemed more fun than um than the liberal arts side that I was I started on. So I just switched over since it didn't matter what year was def Jam as a punk label started first. Wait year eighty three eight four or something like that, What were the who were the artist on the label? At the time, the only records that I made of my own band, all there was was hose h O s C. And there was a twelve inch and a seven inch, a twelve inch EP and a seven inch. That's all there was. And then I made my first hip hop record, which was It's Yours, which and I'll tell you the story of how that came about because it's interesting if you want again, if you want to hear it. Yes, yes, we're rabbit Holes Central, We're waiting. My favorite group at the time were The Treacherous Three. And I didn't know anything at all about the record business. I didn't know that there were I didn't know what a producer did. I didn't know that there were record company is. I didn't know that people had contracts. I literally knew nothing other than I love music more than anything. I read everything I could read about music. I read even Billboard, which was a weird thing for a kid to read when I was even in you know, sixth grade, seventh grade. I would read Billboard just because there might be a little story about an artist I liked, and it never made like I was never really interested in what it said. But I just wanted to learn anything that was to learn about anyone that I liked in music, So if I saw their name in an article, I had to read it. I reached out to After the show at the Grille, I reached out to um Kumodi. Kumodi was my favorite m C. And I gave him my number and I said, let's get together and and chat. Now, Kumodi was going to school on Long Island, so we're all like college age at this time. And then Kumo d came to visit me at the dorm. That was my first attempt at being involved in this thing that I loved, and I said they had been making records on Enjoy Records, which I loved, and then they made their first thing. The first thing that came out, if I remember correctly, I'm not sure the timing of this, but I heard a treacherous three song that I thought wasn't as good as the all the ones that I liked. Was it? Yes we Can Can on sugar Hill? Might have been I didn't like that. Yeah, so I might have been. So as a fan, I said, let's get together. I just want to talk to you about this music. You know, I'm I'm a fan. I want to talk to you. And then I said, and again I was. I had great confidence in my taste, just because I really you know, I truly felt it with all of my heart. And this was at a time when not a lot of people were listening to this music. It was a tiny underground scene at the time. You have to keep in mind this is there were the first round of deaf jam records. We might have pressed up, you know, three thousand copies. You know, that might be the starting run of a record. So that's how big the world of hip hop was at that time. By this point, Uh, is this pre or post? It's yours? Like, what was this about you that he's leading up? This is leading up to it's there's no I've done nothing. Oh so he just he just befriended you on trust, not knowing anything about your No, he didn't even befriend me on trust. He's just like somebody cares in a time when nobody caress. You understand, it was a tiny little world that nobody was interested in I was interested. I could speak about it with passion because I had that passion. So there weren't that many heads at that moment in time. So I get together with Cool MOODI and I say, okay, the records you made on enjoy A great. Now there's this new thing. It's not as good as the rest. Let's figure out together. I'm your fan. I don't want it to go that way. I don't want it to get worse. Let's figure out how to make it get better. And let's figure out. I swear it's true. Let's figure out how to do this. And he said, I would love to do this, but I can't do this. We're signed to sugar Hill. I didn't Again, I had no idea. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a producer was. I didn't know what that There were contracts, but he said, we're signed to sugar Hill, but you should talk to Special K. He's in the group, and he writes he might have an idea. So he introduced me to Special K. Got together a Special K, and Special K said, okay, I like the idea. And I was already programming beats, so I played him some beats on my oh eight. Special K said, Okay, I wrote, I just wrote this record called It's Yours. I can't do it because I'm signed to sugar Hill, but Ti Lara can do it. He's where we're related. And that's the way it really happened. I me wanting to work with Treacherous three, them saying me not knowing, I me not knowing anything about the business, and then basically saying, this is the guy who can do the song. And Special K wrote the lyrics. It was. It was essentially, uh like a a Special K solo record. Lyrically what and even lyrically that was really ahead of his time even back then. It was incredible. The story, I don't know that special It's yours. Wait, Rick, are you even familiar about the Tee La Rock situation right now? I've heard a little bit recently. Don't know what's going on. Then, okay, I won't do anything. I won't do any justice to the story. I'll just say that if you google Tela Rock. GQ magazine. GQ magazine, damn near gave Tela Rock a seven page feature story, long story short. I meet this woman, this like uh this high society hoity toity, upscale woman from like the West Side, and she comes to me and says, hey, I'm doing thing finger like the woman carry the woman in wild style like totally a fish out of water, or a white woman comes to me and says, hey, I'm doing a biopic. Or rapper Tela Rock and already I'm turned. I'm like, okay, he's trying to scam you, Like, okay, whatever, biopick. I'm like, what is it about Titla Rock that deserves a biopic? Three years later, there's a story in GQ magazine that I didn't know which basically, he went into a coma and because he had no I D or anything on him, think of like Michael Jackson's character on The Simpsons. He winds up in uh, this old folks home in the Bronx. They don't know who he is, or he doesn't know who he is, knows nothing. I think about. In months or so, his family finally locates him, but he's comfortable with his life at this old folks home and now they have to explain to him who he was. You were once you were the first Rapper's brutal attack A mirror too that happened now. But the headline is the man who forgot he was a rap ledger, which is pretty great. But I don't know how he got into that coma, but I do know that he was in a coma and he didn't know who or what he was, and he slowly had to be taught everything about himself. But now he just has this new life in as the young guy, as the young stud and a nursing home and he likes his life there. And but it's they say that other residents are mostly elderly Jewish and Yiddish speakers, so that must be. Yeah, like the word about like who's this black guy in our are are missing? They're like, oh, he was once a rapper on Russell Simmons label like that. So it's the craziest story you ever heard. But it's yeah, I was forward once I've seen it. Now now I wish I wouldn't dismissed that woman, like that movie has to be made. That sounds right, Yeah, that's him, now, Yeah, it's a crazy movie. And that it looks exactly the same. By the way, it's exactly what you looked like then. How old were you when you did that record? Shit? Maybe maybe nineteen, I don't know, Yeah, and that was just you on the M on the eight oway and then what did y'all track it on? If you remember? We tracked it this There was a studio that advertised in the Village Voice called power Play in Long Island City, which was the cheapest studio you could go into, and we recorded it. I recorded my punk rock band there before, and then we recorded that it's yours there and M recorded it, you know, in a couple of hours, pretty reading quick. Another piece the reason jazz j the reasons steel rock and jazz j. A was again as a fan of hip hop, as someone going to the to the club. The whole idea always of the records that I made were that the energy in the club was a very specific thing and the records that were coming out didn't sound like what the club sounded like. And as a fan now had had the records sounded the same, I don't know that I would have ever made a hip hop record at all, because it was more just I want to hear this. I want to hear what I'm hearing at the club, but nobody's making that record, so I made it to be able to hear it, but that's all it was. It wasn't There was no uh. I had no expectation that anybody else would like it or that it would have any success. What it was never about, you know, you could never assume that in this little world that it was that we were coming from. It's like anyone who was making music at that time clearly did it out of the love of it, because it was no upside. Yeah, there was no industry that was build. What was the fundamental difference between the club and the and the record? What were you trying to capture? Was it just the you know? Okay, because even on the acapella version of that record. In my mind, there's a million people in the room, do it like because you're the kyd of the ho ho like that that that sort of thing, like the people in the background. How many people were in the room when that those party noises were made? Four or five? Five or six of us? Two times? Maybe maybe three? Was that Rock one of those people? Absolutely? Okay? Okay? Always at yeah, me Ad Rock, probably Special k Jazzy J who everybody who was in this hid, maybe even the engineer of the session, like any people we had on hand to get the the that party vibe. So okay, so let me explain how I heard what I heard different about the club versus the records and I and a lot of this has to do with me not knowing anything the way that rap records had been made up until that point. Those records were made by people who had made other records. So at the time, if you were going to make a club record, it would be like like Heartbeat, it would be a band. It would be a band record with uh woman singing R and B M that would be the club record. And then when the people who didn't understand hip hop but understood making club records saw this new thing, rap music, they thought, Okay, we'll do the band doing the R and B song and we'll have the guy rap on it instead of having the girls sing on it. And that's what hip hop records sounded like. But that's not what the clubs sounded like. The club sounded like DJ culture, drum machines. Maybe not so many drum machines, but some at that point more DJ culture. It was really about the DJ cutting it up. So if you went to see Uh, if you went to see the Trecher Street Live, it wasn't a band playing their song like it was on even the Enjoy records. It was the DJ cutting up the records with the m cs. And that's what that's how I understood hip hop was this homemade music with rapping so that so that's and that's why Jazzy why it was important for me, Like I would never want to sign I would never think of doing uh a Tila rock record without having a DJ associated with it, because it's like what made it hip hop was the two of them. It was the band, you know, together they were the Beatles, but by himself it was just to say it was another singer, you know, it was Frank Sinatra. It's it's different. So I saw it as a group and the music was an important part of that. For me, the DJ culture was as important as the MC always it was always both. So that's and then I and Jazz J was my favorite DJ, and I asked him if he would be on the record and joined the group with Special K. That's how that's how it happened. Wow, was it hard to because you know the stories that I've heard from Russell's reaction to the record was that it was hard to believe that this white boy made such a definitive black album. So how how how hard was it to convince people that you're the guy that made it's yours? Like? Was it hard sell? Or it was? The whole thing was so strange, like it was the record was already a weird record. Yes, you Russell always referred to it as more black than anything else, But to me, it was just more representative of the club, you know, it was more like it was like a documentary of what I experienced going to the club. All right, So since we're talking about your eight oh eight period, and I guess our listeners, it should be noted that, really, I mean, yes, I know that there's a tie between like you and Arthur Baker. That Telo Rock single was like sort of a cross between def Jim and it wasn't start uh whatever party time, Party Time? Wasn't that one of the author Baker's offspring at the way, I could tell you how that happened as well, which was I was going to put it out independently myself, the way I put out my punk rock records with nine nine Records, which is a record store are really cool independent record store on Google Street g S g and they put out Bush Tetras and and and Liquid Liquid. They put out the record that the message was based on. Actually, yeah, I have those records. So the guy who ran that record store was sort of my mentor in that he walked me through the process. He's like, Okay, here's a list of studios you could go to. Here's a place you could have the vinyl press. Here's the place you can have the labels made. The labels were made in Brooklyn, the vinyl was pressed in I think Long Island City, the covers were printed in Canada. And he kind of walked me through, here's people who could do mastering for you, and he just walked me through how to do it because I didn't know anything. As I said, So I did that first for my punk rock records and I was about to do that with It's yours when Jazz he called me because they were making some movie that Arthur Baker was involved in. I don't know what it was. I can't remember what it was street and he said, Hey, just met this guy Arthur Baker. He wants to hear our record. He's got a label, maybe he can help us. And then I went up and I met Arthur Baker at Shakedown Studio, which is where we ended up doing a lot of work in the future as well mixing. I think we mixed half of License to Ill there and m c A from the BC Boys worked there. He worked as a as like a tape op assistant there, assistant engineer. So I went up. I met Arthur for the first time and he was already, you know, like a successful person in the music business. And um again, I'm still this kid in school playing the song. He's like, this is great. His main label was called street Wise street Wise, and he said, and put out and it really yeah, it doesn't really fit street Wise, but we could put it on Party Time, which is like a sub label. Said fine, and he bought the record to put out and I said, the only thing is it has to have the deaf Jam logo on it. Um, even though it came over, I drew that looking, you drew that looking. I drew the Yeah, I did. My aunt Carol worked at Estate Lauder in the creative creative services department, and I would hang out there a lot, and I used press type and I made it on a day that either they were closed or just when nobody was around at one of the designers tables. UM, just experimenting with different things. And the reason that the reason it has the big DJ was to make that point of like the this is DJ culture. So I thought having the big DJ in the logo quietly told the story of what the label was about. Was that a one thing Willie drawing? Or was that like, okay, on the fifth one, I liked this one. I tried a lot of things. I mean I tried a lot of things, but it happened pretty quick. It came in and you know, came in a day. I drew it a bunch of like upper case lower case what looks good and moving it around and then still have your sketches of it? Or are they long gonging? So I probably long gone it. I don't. It's possible that they exist because I had a lot of stuff at my parents house and then some of that stuff is in ah in storage somewhere, but I've never looked at it. I was gonna ask what does it feel? Because I've heard a mirror and and Tariq say that sometimes they went on def jam just because they wanted to be able to have that logo with their name just gotta feel crazy just for my drawing. Yeah, like you know, I in class, I draw that logo on imaginary Uh, roots albums that didn't exist yet, like hanging that ship on my wall. I probably did exactly the same thing, and then it ended up becoming you know, they weren't roots albums, but they were whatever it was. It was just like playing with how do we say that, what's the name gonna be? What's it gonna look like? How does how does it work? In eighty three eighty four? How expensive are eight o eight drum machines? I don't know, something that you casually come across. It's something that I luckily came across because there was a guy in my dorm room who was in an alternative rock band called the Speedies, and he had that machine and he lent he lent me the eight o eight drum machine. That's how I came across it. So were you able to program and save beats or is it just like you turn on you show what you could do in print it? Uh, you could make twenty or so pre program beats. So how long is the conversation with Russell Simmons before you realize that you're going to go into partnership with him and start the label. Officially. I met Russell at a party for a graffiti rock that that TV where Treacher's Three and and Render Yeah, And I went there, you know, hoping that Treacher's Three would be there because they were, you know, my favorite group. And this is like that party. This was an after party, and someone introduced me to Russell and I told him I made It's yours and he couldn't believe it. It's just like, no way, It's like you're white, you didn't make that record. And again, but but you have to understand that were they were really were well. Tom Silverman was involved in hip hop. He was the only other white person I would say that that I knew who had any relationship to hip hop at that time. But he wasn't making beats. He was. He was really helpful. He was really helpful to us, like he was someone another Like I had these great mentors. I had the guy at nine nine Records, ed ed Billman. His name was and Um and I had to Tommy and I would call Tom's just like, hey, what do I do? Monica Lynch who worked with Tommy, like it's like what do we do? How do how do it? What's the next step? And I can remember his story. I don't think I've ever told Anyone's interesting why I was excited about having Russell as a part. Now I was walking on in front of the dorm, across the street from the dorm, turning the corner I ran into and I don't even know. This is strange because I don't know how I knew who he was. But there was a writer for the Village Voice named Aaron Fuchs. He was he was a writer. But listen, let me let me tell you, let me tell you the story. So again, it's amazing the fact that I even I don't know how I knew who he was or how it worked out that I that I. But I literally went up to him on the street and said, hey, I made this record, and what do I have to do to get people to hear it? Like how do I do this? And this was it's yours. I don't even think I had the I was just more of a conversations like how does it work? How does this work? So now I'm at the stage where because I was always comfortable asking questions, you know, I would if someone had information that I needed. I was. I felt comfortable asking, and sometimes they would help and sometimes they wouldn't. So I thought he was someone who might be able to help. And I just said, you know, what's the next step. How do I get people to hear this thing? And he said, you need promotion and you can't do it. And he said the only person who knows how to do promotion for hip hop records is Russell Simmons, and Russell Simmons won't do anything for anyone except his brother Run. He works with a lot of artists. But he said, unless your Run, he won't promote your records. So it's like, Okay, I'm thinking, maybe someday I'll meet this guy Rustling. At least he'll tell me what he does, even if he won't do it. Um, just in hopes of getting the word out, I gotta get to the bottom of the story. Now. If he was a writer for the Village Voice, and he too was you know, a hopeful record record mogul. Yet you know the story and the fable of of Aaron is that he would go hard in the paint ensuing any product on deaf Jam that contains any of the samples that he owned. I would say even beyond that is that if he knew any song had the potential to be sampled, he'd try to buy up the right so that he could see whoever sampled it. Well, yeah, that too. But I'm almost feeling like maybe he has a personal beef with Russell that none of us are aware of, because there are other samples that he could have went after that he never did. But if it was on Deaf Jam, it's like like Goodfellas, fuck you pay me and always wanted to know if that was if there was like a burnt bridge, and it's sort of like, okay, well I'm gonna get you. When he told when he told me about Russell, he was not positive about him. It was not a positive conversation, but it was just this, it was a piece of information that was helpful. There. There's an article that or a block that Harry Allen once wrote in in honor of your early production methods, in which you know, it's noted that you have the loudest eight oh eight sounds, the loudest scratches, like your scratches on going back to Cali, Like it's just louder than everything. So even like what's your engineering process or just your whole theory on pushing it to the limit. Um, there is none. I will say, I like, if you're gonna put something in there, I want to be able to hear it, Like I want the idea of having scratching as this sort of background element that's going on all the time is not so interesting to me. It's like, if it's gonna be there, it should be only exactly when it needs to be there, and it should be crazy loud, because in some ways it's like it's like lead guitar, you know, it's uh, it's a punctuation moment. It's not a background sound. And as a rule, I'm not so into background sounds. You know. It's more about having the least amount of stuff going on, creating space where each thing that you hear, hopefully very few of them sound as clear and have as much personality as possible. And as soon as you start blanketing sounds, all of each of those sounds gets diminished. And I can hear that in your I can really hear that in your rock production predicularve Uh, particularly on Californiation, which is probably my favorite Rick Rubin produced album. But but now I love that recommend Like when I preserted it was just I was taken aback by just how the way you track Anthony's vocals, Like it sounded almost like to the edge of the storation but not quite and it just had that kind of grid on it and it was just really in your face. And I love that as one on that one. So you were you were about to tell the Rock the bell story. I think, yeah, I'll tell you what I remember, but but I don't remember the Bob James record ever being in the conversation. It may have been, it may have been something that l had been thinking and wanting to do. Okay, okay, but I don't remember it. I don't remember talking about it. Yeah, I was gonna say, it's even possible that when it was time to record it, that he suggested it. And it is possible that we were already working on the run DMC the Peter Piper song. It is possible. What was your one of the one of the factors that you also used in your early production, uh, was the sound of Go Go and Rock the bells and then She's crafty um And also you know, I'll say that one of the things I've done in the Quarantine Punishment is practically purchased every Go Go album made available, and nothing I hate. And I know a lot of it has to do with either the studios that they record in, either it's too clean or it's too amateurish. But Sardines, to me, is probably the best. Yes, Sardines is probably the best produced Go Go record, probably second to Pump Me Up. So, first of all, Sardines is such a stripped down song. How did you record Junkyards? Drop the bombs? Incredible too? Okay, I'll say early early trump of early trumpell funk. Yes, they're they're, they're, they're mixing was immaculate. But um, what was the process in recording the Junkyard band? And why didn't you press on further with them? Okay, let me. I'm gonna just talk for a second about I agree with you. The only the only Go Go records I like, our old Trouble Funk records other than Sardines, which I think was good. And I want to talk about that a little bit because what you're describing is exactly the way I felt about hip hop. Where you could buy in those days, the early days of hip hop I could buy a twelve inch or two every week, that's all that would come out, that would be hip hop, and none of them did for me what the Trouble Funk records did. As it relates to Go Go, do you know what I'm saying, it's it's like the the hip hop records were like the bad Go Go records. It's the same. It's the same in any genre. It's like, it's not about the genre, it's the way the records are made. And in some ways I felt like Go Go was gonna be the next hip hop I usually believe that was gonna happen, But they didn't make the right records. They sounded they watered down what Go Go was. Yeah, they're like the records on Island. Island signed all the bands, and those records are terrible. Do you think that's because it's kind of designed for it to be a live situation more than a record at the end of the day, like a studio album. I just think that the wrong people were helping make the music. The wrong people were involved on the recording side. Yes, I don't. I don't like how half the Google records are engineered. Not I mean, I love rare essence, more than any band on earth. But it just frustrates me that the energy and the engineering of when I hear them live, or even I hear like some of their live mixtapes, that's not captured on a studio cut from me, That's what I'm saying. And so why was Sardines and the Word just a one off twelve in? Was there ever a conversation about recording Junkyard as a band or I mean as a band as a full album? I don't. I don't really remember, and I think not long after I ended up leaving Death Jam, So it may have been that it was just like towards the end of the time that I was doing stuff with Death Jam and then just stopped. But I don't remember. I don't remember there being First of all, nobody particularly cared about it, like we liked it, but it's not like there was any demand for the Junkyard band. As crazy as that sounds, I loved him. I was told to ask you about the making of Crush Groove the song? What tell me the story the making of Crush Groove the song? What's I was thinking, It's funny that this has been I couldn't. I didn't remember what song that was there. I had a memory that we did a song with Rundy m C and other artists, and I remember the conversation in the studio because it was heated and particularly on my as it related to me, like I was very unhappy with what was going on, and I thought it for some reason, I thought it was a Christmas song, but have come to realize it's actually that Crush Groove song and um, and I could never find it anywhere because it's listed as the Crush Groove All Stars. So so it's not like if you're looking back at run DMC songs that comes up right. So I haven't heard it in a long time, but I had this vague memory. It's like we did this song, and I remember there was a little bit of an argument in the studio, and what the argument was was, if you listen to the track, should we play it because it'll it'll or at least play some of it. You want to play a little bit of it? The track? Who are the who? The who are the other artists on it? Do you remember? Okay, the movie people wanted a song for the movie. They got the Fat Boys Sheila E and Curtis Blow on this track. That sounded like a track that would fit and maybe any one of the three of their albums, maybe she'll less. But it sounded most like a Fat Boys record or a Curtis like a fat Boy Curtis blow record. Yeah, it sounds like a fat Word Curtis blow record. So when we got to the studio, okay, do you want to play it? Man by Love? Then by Love that. I think I was five when this came out. I love this fucking song. Now, well, okay, so what's what's When we got to the studio, the mission was, we're doing this song for the movie. They provided us this song. The other mcs ready on it, and now I'm there as Run DMCs producer, and they're supposed to get on this on this track, and and it sounded only like the beginning of the song, didn't sound like the Run DMC part. And I said, there's no way Run DMC could be on this. They cannot be on this. It's like, this sounds like a Fat Boys record. This sounds like a Curtis blow record. That's not a Run DMC record. I love Run DMC. This is something else. And and then I said, well, the only way we could have run DMC on this would be if we make our own track and drop it in in the middle where it could sound like this is a run DMC song. And that's It's how that ended up. And I was the only one who cared. Nobody else cared. No. But you know it would have just been like Larry, Larry and Curtis weren't offended. I don't even know. I didn't even know who produced it. Yeah, I didn't know that. I do remember Curtis was piste off after saying how come I can't be over the part that runs on? Like? How come he couldn't write break down? The breakdown? Can you talk about? You know, there's there's producer as as song clinician and arranger and and music person, and there's something about producer as a social psychologist. And I feel like your your life and correct me if I'm wrong. It's sort of this weird thing that rides between them and the great producers that I know run this line that I don't fully understand how to run. And I feel like you've mastered it and and and in your career have sort of defined what a producer is and so there are some producers that are that are beat makers, there are some producers that are songwriters. You're able to encompass all of them, and not only in one particular genre of but about four or five. So like, I don't know. I mean, you call yourself a reducer, and I get that sort of play on words, but like, I don't know, what what what is it? What is it about all of that that makes it work, that makes that makes you enjoy what you do as well? Because that, to me is fascinating. I'll say that I think it always changes. At the time that I was more of a beat making producer, which are the days we're talking about now, I was not I was not good at the psychology part and the collaborating I was not good. I was much more of a I know what's good and you're going to do it my way, probably for my hip hop early hip hop days. And then as I started working with more rock bands, I started understanding more the dynamics of working with a group of people. And now the most interesting thing for me when I worked with an artist is I can clearly point out where I think the strengths and weaknesses are but I don't feel like it's my responsibility to solve the weaknesses. All I have to do is point out, like this section here isn't as good as it could be. What can we do to make it better? Whereas in the old days, I'd say this section isn't as good and this is what we're gonna do. Now it's this part isn't as good. How do you guys suggest we fix it? And all of that. It's all based on your opinion, right, I mean like it's it's all how is this opinion? Everything everything has to do with opinion. The whole job, the whole job of doing this is pure opinion. Yeah. Okay, So before before I get to the Beastie Boys, well, Unpaid Bill sort of sorry enemy to divert but because actually my next question leads to what you were headed with M pay Bill, which is basically, whenever you show up and whenever you show up in the credits, two things are bound to happen, and that is you're going to reduce the sound. So we already talked about the idea of you stripping stuff down to just its bare bones and making it loud, but it's also you really introduced the idea of cross genres in modern hip hop music. I mean with with Run DMC having their biggest hit with Walked This Way, even with the Beastie Boys, at least in their their narrative of it, like we were making fun of smoking in the boys rooms and now here you go would fight for you right the party. But even with Johnny Cash doing hurt or even with uh Mick Jaggers singing over impeach the President, even with the stuff with Slayer or or working with Neil Diamond, like there's always an element or Kanye rhyming over industrial streises. There seems to be a common denominator of you pushing artists. I don't willing or unwillingly. I mean, Kanye seems like the type of person that's like, let's let's let's go to the edge of it, let's do something different, Whereas like Rundy m C was legendary for not liking or wanting to do Walk This Way the way that you wanted them to do it. So how much hold handing and Jedi mind tricks and psychology it's all psychology? Seem like, yeah, how how much of that is a nightmare for you when you just want to make the damn song and leave it the My whole relationship too, has changed over the years. So in the case of run D m C, then it was frustrating and I didn't have the tools to deal with it. But luckily uh Russell called called run in Dy and said, just do whatever Rick says. It's like, really knows what he's doing. Just do what Rick says. So had that not happened, they wouldn't have They wouldn't have been on the record. That record wouldn't have happened. So that's how that happened. And even after Rock Box and King of Rock, they don't know that they're on a winning formula, just like one one moment away from super jackpot Well that this had less to do with it being a rock song, had more to do with singing someone else's words and singing someone else's which they had never done before, and singing someone else's words that they didn't necessarily like. How long did that process take? Walk this way? I'm talking the same as everything you know, same as everything else. The only thing that was different was because Steve and Joe appeared on the record. There was an extra day working on it with those guys playing guitar and singing, singing vocals, the guys from marasmith Um with with the Beastie Boys. Well, first of all that I want to know who introduced I have so many questions. Number one the Beastie Groove rock Hard twelve inch Who were the Latin Rascals because I've always have seen their names and like all these twelve inches from three to eighty five, and then poof Nothing, who were the Latin Rascals. The Latin Rascals were two club DJs who worked at Shakedown Arthur Arthur Baker's studio who invented this is pre sampler. There were no samplers and they invented away. It was their own style of doing remixes where they would do these edits on on half inch tape where they would repeat the same like on through editing. So it was like it wasn't scratching. There was no sampling yet, and there was this other way of manipulating the music, and the Latin Rascals invented it and and they did it on all of Arthur's records and um and they did a lot of club remixes and that, and I can't remember what they did on that. I don't remember them doing anything on those, but it's possible. On on this Party is Getting rough. That little see Philadelphia, where I come from, has a very different relationship with this party is getting rough and hold it now hit it? You know, because Lady B and her Street B show that came on Power ninety nine between like twelve and five pm on Sundays, they made they basically made uh an edit where they would play that middle sketch of this Party is Getting Rough where it's like, oh, man, you just fested man, you know you you didn't even turn up the boom box and all that stuff, all the all the all that chaos in the middle, and then they attached I don't really remember, man, Yeah, this is this like the Philly anthem. So they made they kind of made an edit. Philly made an editor of their own of this Party is Getting Rough and the Basti groove and just between Latin rascals and man tronics, just the the idea of like multiple sampling or like those crazy edits. That's all we heard. But what's even weirder for holding Now hit It? Because of a pressing mistake, the initial deaf Jam pressings have Holding Now Hit It, have the acapella as side one, Yes had the acapella as side one, and the the DMX drum Machine version that's on the album as side too. We never heard of the drum machine version in Philly ever, so when when they're playing holding Now Hit It, there's no such thing as an acapella or you juggling called it acapulco version, and we thought, yo, dude, it was such. It was the most radical ship we ever heard because our thing was like the only way I can describe it is if you ever seen Pooti Tang. And when Chris Rock asked, the DJ introduces that song of silence, like and now this new song lence, I'm just saying these friends with Chris Rock, I don't know anyway. The whole point was that we made up in our minds like, yo, these dudes are so incredible they don't even need music, and Holding Now Hit It. The acapella was number one on the Power nine at nine four months to the point where when we got the album and heard that drum now, it's weird because in Florida, every everyone from down South I know, even from Mirror tells the story like when you're getting your car system the song that you tested to see if you're if you're your car systems right, that's holding Now hit it because you like you mix your your joints loud as fun. When we got that in Philly, we didn't know what the like, Yo, what's this drum ship? Like this ain't on the album. To this day, I will never acknowledge the album version of Holding out here. I will only DJ the acapella version, but even love to hear I've never heard the acapella version. I'd love to hear it. I don't remember ever hearing it. Bet it's great, probably better. That's crazy is your label? That's it's the first acapella in history? Like love that, Yeah, that's the first acapoco in history. And in working their album, like how involved are you with with the marketing? And because I'll be honest with you wet for two years from eight five till we purchased the album and saw the gatefold cover, I didn't know the Best boys were white. We thought they were Puerto Rican affili at least, so was that by design too? Like not put them on the album cover and just to ride it out till not at all the way we did it. We didn't. We never even thought about it. On the seven original def Jam singles, the Maroon label singles, of which where rock Hard was one of those. I think that's the only BC record that was there was an l L there was that. There was Hollis Creek, Hollis Crew, Jimmy Spicer, I'm a Girl Watcher with Papa D and Papa Son. I don't think that was on Maroon. Okay, well there was also m c A and Bazooti. Yeah, yeah, that Zudi. Zooti is an engineer in New York named Jay Burnett, and he was the guy who turned me onto the studio that we loving. The renamed Chung King, the original, the original Chunking. There's a Chunking, Yeah, And the reason I called it Chung King was I didn't want anyone to know that it was such a terrible place that we were working in, so I made up Chunking. House of Metal was like, uh, just the the one on that was on. It's before before the Verrick one. It was on was a church between Broom and Grant something like that. Across from the pool. There's that police building. You know the police building. He was on that block, five floor walk up. The rest of the building were like sweatshops. It was a really weird place. It was really again I didn't know this because I wasn't into it, but it was just a drug deal in place they had They just had a studio, but it was mainly drug dealing. But I didn't know that, Steve, Yes, you know, speaking of which, you know what I mean that I was just reminiscent. I think I think I was at that place dropping off tapes at the first as an intern. Yeah, the first place. Yeah, it was. I was only there once, but we recorded um all of the BC boys stuff there. We recorded raising hell, there recorded a lot of the early def gem stuff there, maybe all of it. I was gonna say, Steve, that that dmx DR machine that's hanging in our studio, that's ricks. Yeah, I know, I know this is also tell the world, but you know, I mean I need that the one questions that in this room is that a stolen or no? Um, we know is it? We you know what we had to re record. I can't right left handed with John Legend, and we were running out of studios and it just so happens that that was open and when we got there, we were told this is our last day and kind of you know, I was like doing my fan boys things like, oh my god, this is the old Chunk King and no, no, no no. And whoever the owner was a guy he's like just like on some me and Joe Green. Here a kid catch. Um, he showed me this season is this DMX and he's just created you know, all the death j M days has been here forever. You know, you'll take care of this and I took it anyway. May that may or may not be true. Well, there's multiple I'm sure there's multiple DMX drum scenes, but I prefer my version of it. Um, was the was the just the flood game of Licensed to Ill? Was that scary to you or overwhelming at the time? And how are you guys treated by Columbia Records? By this point? We were never treated well by anybody, even when selling twelve million units? Yes, even then, man, really so you were still we were off the red nose the rain. I mean it was this period, was this uh Montola period, like where was yet a coffin? I'll teller those were the people that I don't tell her from m c A was at Columbia first. He was the president of Columbia at the time that we were there. Damn. The only person that I ever really dealt with on a regular basis was Jeff Jones, who was a great guy. He was a product manager and he now runs Apple Records for the Beatles based in London, and he's still around and he remembers like he he told me stories of things that happened back then. I didn't remember, but it was funny, like like with License to Ill, he he said. He goes into a meeting, he's like, well, Rick Rubin says, we can't put a barcode on the outside of the cover, and uh, you know, we have to figure out how we're going to do this because we've never done this before, and that, you know, the people in the meta like who the fund is, Rick Rubin, what do you mean? It's like, we do this all, we're doing that. Of course it's gonna have a barcode. He's like no, but Rick won't let us have the barcode. He's like, he's insistent. So again I had no memory of that, but we would fight. We would fight for the art to get the art the way we wanted all the time, and people just didn't know what it was, you know, just say, it's very little understanding of what it was that we were doing. Who conceptualized the album cover for License to Ill? That was me, I'll tell you. I had just read the led Zeppelin book Camera the Gods about them being on tour and all the debauchery of crazy rock stardom and and and there were images of led Zeppelin's airplane in the book, and it just seemed like, wow, that's just like the height of decadence. This an airplane at with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle going on. And I thought I would be interesting to have a beastie boy, a beastie boy air airplane representing this sort of crazy debauchery all made up. You know, none of this was true. We were kids, We were kids in school, you know, this was none of this was accurate. This was a fantasy based on loving, loving led Zeppelin. It was the fantasy of well, what about beastie boys jumbo jet that rams into a mountain like that. That's like the way the story ends is the it goes with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle, and I thought, well, because it would be a gatefold, it'd be like you'd see the front of it and you'd think it was you just think it was an airplane. And then you'd open it up and you'd get the reveal of the back and then yeah. And then when I would drive from my parents house on Long Island into the city, I would always pass the globe um from the that's in the centerfold, and I was thought, oh, it'd be great, like someday that would be a great thing to use in a photograph. And then the opportunity was with the Beastie Boys. The inner the inner sleeve has anyone ever, you know, it's weird when I've seen it. I remember getting the album like Thanksgiving of eighty six, so I would like to think that I think the album came out in November eighty six, like late November. Um, but this happened. The album cover occurred like nine months after the Space Settle challenge thing challenger challenges like the Ship out of Me in Kindergarten, Yo. Yeah, and like that album and see that ash like just traumatized me even more so. It's weird, like I have his love his love relationship with with the album because it's so you know, my monumental. But it's like, uh, the nights. I just looked at that album cover like it's killing me. I didn't I didn't know about the crash, and it didn't I'll tell you now in I knew it at the time, but I didn't know enough to be able to get it the way I really wanted it. But it never was the way I really wanted it, which was I wanted to look more really like a photograph, and instead it looks more like a Mad magazine cover cartoon like it. It's more cartoony looking than I would have liked it to be. I would have liked it to be like photo realist. Whom the artist that drew it was he a friend of yours or no, no, he was a friend of um. The guy who was our art director at the label, Steve Byrom was his name, And I would just say, hey, this is the vision for the cover. How do we get this made? And then he had his friend he commissioned it. But which is why it didn't come out the way I wanted it to come out. You know, it's like, so you've seen it, We're disappointed. Yeah, I said this isn't really. It's like the image is right, but the way it was done was not right. It felt more like a cartoon. But it was like, well, you know, the album's coming out and we have no time. It's like okay, and and they eat me. That was not that was creative, like the eating of that. I didn't that was not my idea. So what did you think about Eminem's arm But then I forgot you produced that? Did you talk or did he say I wanted you one? Eminem's album? Uh? Not Abuse it to be murdered by I was the one before that one. It was the recovery was Recovery. It just came out like a year or two ago. Oh, I'm looking right now. Wait, which was to my question, which is Rick, how do you pick your projects just based on liking either liking the music or liking the artists one or the other. Like Karma Kazi, Sorry, Karma Kazi. That was it? Yeah, it just didn't produce that. Oh I thought you produced the last Karma Kazi. Yikes, Okay, I stand corrected. Well, Karmic tribute to you License to Ill so cool? Yeah. As as an album cover, just on the back of Bill's question, Rick, how come you only did one I've noticed you only did uh the Andrew Dice Clay album, like that was your only comedian that you work with? Well, we did. I think we did five five Andrew Dice clayout and I always looked for other comedians to work with, but never found there was At one point I was interested in recording Carlos Mencia. I don't know, and I think we like started talking about it, maybe even recorded a little bit, but it just never never came together. For whatever reason. Have you done any more requests though comedian? Why? Well? I loved Gerard. I think he's incredible. I've never thought about him doing an album, but that's a really interesting idea. He wants. How long did you have to bug publican h me until Chuck finally relented and signed to the label. It was a really long time. It was a long time. I want to say it felt like forever then, but it was probably nine months, maybe a year. But for you know, when you're twenty years old, a year is forever. No, that's a long time. And they had a post it note of Chuck's number next to my phone, and any time I would walk by the phone, I'd see it and I would call and then Bill Stephanie, who was our first employee at def JAM. He knew Chuck, and at one point I got so frustrated, I said, you have to tell Chuck. If he doesn't sign to def JAM, I'm firing you. Like you have to convince him he has to do this. And it's not like he wanted to sign to someone else. He didn't want to make records, that was the thing. It's like he was too old. He thought he was too old. How did you How did you feel about the Bomb Squad's production methods, because that's the total opposite of your reduction. B loved it. I like I like different things, you know, I'm not. I like all kinds of different things. I actually heard something on your on your James Brown recent DJ set. Maybe it was night too, if I remember correctly, For the first time, I heard what I think was the inspiration for the Bomb Squad that I've never heard before. Wow, I have to find I'll find it and send it to you, just so you have for your own reference. And I think you pieced you put the pieces of a puzzle together from me that I never knew were there. You know during this period at least between eight six and eighty nine, I'm it between your work with LLL and I am curious as to why you did not produce Uh Bigger And I always wanted to know how you felt about like the L A Posse and I Need Love and all that stuff. But you're doing these Slayer records and not to mention like I mean your heart meant like how what is your approach to Are you just leading from the gut or do you have like a mapped out plan that you're explaining to the group. This is the vision I have for you, Like how do you work with Slayer? Just going into the studio and first going into pre production talking about the parts and the songs, helping make them as good as they could be, and then figuring out how to um. In their case, it was interesting because they already were popular, a popular underground band. Like the night I saw them, they sold out the Ritz, which is pretty substantial place. I saw them at the Ritz blew my mind. It's like, I like heavy music. I never heard of these guys before, and this was one of the craziest, heaviest concerts I've ever seen in my life. How is this. It's like a parallel universe that this exists, and um and I talked to them that night after the show and then ended up flying out and meeting him in California after that because I've never heard I've never heard someone play double kick that intense and you know, not not only is it intense, it's funky. That's the He's the only of all the heavy metal drummers I've ever heard who play in that double kick drum style. He's the only one where it's groovy maybe else what thing though, that's not what Lars does. That's not what Lars does. Groovy large does something else. So someone like a pro fast, prog rock drummer. So some kid at school puts me on By the time I get Nation of Millions, some kid puts me onto Random Blood and then uh plays uh yeah yeah she you know when I was listening to and they're like, well, you know that's that's a Slayer song and playing the original join and then like I started buying the records just as a completist, but yeah, trying to play that ship. Because there was like a hard rock band that I joined, like in high school for like four months, but I quit because like, I can't do double foot action that good. But it's like, how did you capture those performances? Like are there jam sessions? Are there? Like guys, here's the course, let's or is it just like okay, open the e open, just boss the wall go no no, no, no no. They wrote the songs. I came in. I said, maybe this parts too long, maybe this part is too short, maybe we need another part here. But very it's all them, it's all them and Slayer were unbelievable, and then it was just properly recording them in a way not to screw it up. And he was a big breakthrough. Sonic breakthrough in my mind, was the only records you could hear that were that approached that speed at that time would be like Metallica's first record. I think that's all that was out. I don't even think their second record. But but Metallica, those records were recorded like a traditional rock band, which again it like it goes back to the hip hop argument in the beginning, it's like nobody's looking at the thing for what it is, to make it the best version of what it is. People are looking at Okay, well on rock records, we use big drum sounds with long with long um reverbs. Yeah, long sounds, and that's what makes them sound big. But if you're playing fast, and if you do that, it's just a blur. You don't hear anything. It's just exactly So I'm looking at Okay, this band is incredible and they play tight and fast, and the key is how do we get it to sound like like you're listening to them with a magnifying glass, not how do you blend it together into an impressionist painting. Um. So in the in the case of Slayer, it was, okay, how do we make the drums sounds super tight, super tiny, because the speed of the drums, the only way you're going to even be able to hear it is if they're basically taps, you know, like tiny little taps um. So it really a lot of it has to do with in each of these cases of the things that I've on the records where I've worked on where they sound different than the records that came before them, it was only looking at them for what they are and figuring out, how do we make this thing sound good, not how do we use the baggage of the past, how do we apply old methods to this? It's how do we what's right for what this is? So how do you know the difference between what to give a slayer as opposed to like the word that you did with the call as far as rock sounds are concerned, Now, I know you know, like, how much research do you have to put into the acts that you work with to know what their strengths and their weaknesses are. I put no research in whatsoever. But the research that I do is as a fan all the time, listening to music all the time, and I listen and then based on what I'm hearing, I'll make suggestions just based on whatever whatever little bit that I've picked up from listening to music my whole life. We should probably be asking to LLL this. But since you were there to help make the track, what exactly went between l L and Cool Mood that made him make Jack the Ripper? I remember, Yeah, I don't know that anything happened. I think it might have just been that. I mean, did you realize that you were making a Cool Mood dis record? Nope, and one of the first disc records. I never thought it because that was your boyfriend back in the day. Ye love him. You you just thought about it that way at all, And it kind of goes back to your go go love too because it was the Chuck Brown sample that it's also the sample Yeah yeah, oh yeah, I forgot. I forgot that athlete's orts clip is yeah, except it's not just the painting full break. Yeah. How how what was your experience like shooting Tougher than Leather Terrible? You directed? I was gonna say, Okay, I'm a first time director. What what what can you what? What? What advice can you give me? I mean, alry, my movie's already done, so okay. I was gonna say, if you have an opportunity not to do it, don't you leave. Okay, So tell me about your experience in in directing Tougher than Leather? Uh, well, where I didn't know what I was doing. In the recording studio, it was easy because there was so few people there and the stakes were low. And on a movie set there are many more people and the schedule is like, Hey, I'm gonna be an hour late to the studio today, talk to you, talk to you guys later. No problem. Movie sets not like that. It's like everything was and yeah, and we were our whole lives were you know, I slept until I never took a class before three in the afternoon when I went to in y U, because I slept until probably one, and we went out all night every night. So the idea of showing up on a movie set at six o'clock in the morning every day, that wasn't anything that I anticipated, and that was not a it was not a realistic ask in the way my life worked. So it was a terrible experience, and um, I wouldn't wish it, wouldn't wish it on my enemy. Did you insist on directing that movie or was it like you had an upcoming april or to do it or something like? How did you wind up holding the director's manual? Me and my friend Rick wrote the idea. It was Rick. Rick was really more the writer than I. We would throw ideas together, but Rick was the main writer. Rick Minello and who was the guy who ran the desk at my dorm, so he would be the night He would work at the dorm from midnight to six. He was the night watchman essentially, and the dorm was pretty quiet from the night to six, so I would usually get home from the club to three, and I would sit there with Rick and we would order food from Cozy Superenberger around the corner and watch old watch old movies on TV. And he was a film major and film historian new tremendous amount and then in later years ended up, you know, working with Darren Aronofsky and um James Gray, James Gray, some great directors, and all of my friends who were directors would always anytime anyone I knew who made movies had a movie question, they would all call Rick Minello because he knew more than everybody that Rick Minello was the main script writer. He he's in it too. I can't remember what his character. He was played, sort of the the sidekick guy to my guy. I can't remember his his character's name, I can't remember. I really blocked out a lot about that movie. Actually, he was also in the Beastie Boys video for No Sleep Till Brooklyn. He was like the club, you know, in the beginning, there's like a skit with a that's Rick Minello. So he's been in a few depth ym uh products. Yes, and he directed Going Back to Kelly as well. Oh, the video of Going Back to Kelly, which we story boarded together at the desk at Weinstein the dormitory at NYU. Okay, so something I don't know, and I don't know if you ever went on record. I never knew how or why you left def Jam. I just remember your name being on the executive producer for Nation of Millions, and then when I looked for your name on Fear of a Black Planet, you weren't there anymore. And then I next day I heard of you. You had a funeral for the word death. So what I mean, why did you decide to leave your your your first love? It really had to There were two things going on. One was over the time together however many years. It was three or four or five years, my relationship with Russell was starting to I wouldn't say it ever turned bad, because we were always good friends, but it felt like our what we wanted was was changing. And I felt like I really loved our friendship and didn't want our friendship to end. And I thought, if we remained partners, our friendships probably gonna end, So maybe it's better just not to be partners anymore. And then there was something going on that really triggered it had to do with the way we were being treated by Columbia and what we needed Columbia to do to fix the situation for our artists. For example, I remember the first time we went to England and the guy at Columbia basically told us, you know, we're just not we're not interested in your records. That they said, and he said, we look at Columbia records in New York as an albatross and it's nothing against you personally, but because you come from them, we're just not really interested even though you're making that money. Yeah, I'm seven. You guys are so more units than Michael Jackson's bed. Yeah, And it was unbelievable. I had a meeting with Alt Teller at the time, who was the president of the company, and told him all of my concerns and I talked for a half hour and I got really emotional. I started crying because again, I care so much about this ship. It's my whole life and um and at the end of the conversation, I say, you know, we gotta we have to figure out a way to fix this, because if not, I have to leave. Like I can't. I can't keep doing this. I can't put my heart into this and have partners who don't care or who are not going as hard as they can as hard as we're going. I can't do this. And um, and this is after half hour of my I remember I had a pad and I listed all the things that were wrong in the relationship. Whatever. Uh if I would have known that they put the wrong A side on the record, that that's an example they've been on the list. Yeah, it's like, but that was indicative of what it was like. It was like nobody really cared. These guys do this ship that we don't understand and luckily itselves, but we don't know what it is and we don't really care what it is. We just don't want it to stop. Um. But they one with Yetnikov or one on one with Diard or Matola, none of those guys. Einer wasn't there, Matola wasn't there. Yet It was so the guy i'll teller was the president of the company. Matola was his boss, but he wasn't really involved in what the day to day of Columbia record. So I had this meeting with the guy the right person to have a meeting with. I have this meeting. I have a heartfelt emotional. He's sitting there holding a baseball bat through the meeting because yeah, he saw himself as kind of like tough. So he's sitting there holding this baseball bat. I'm talking twenty minutes, twenty five minutes. I'm crying at the end and telling him finally that if we can't work this stuff out, we can't get to the bottom this. I got to leave, and I said, you know, I never signed a contract. Russell signed the contract. I never signed anything, and I have to leave. And he said, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute, what did you just say. And I said, I said never. Yeah, I said I never signed a contract, you know, only Russell signed. And he said, okay, wait a minute. You're gonna have to start back at the beginning because I wasn't listening to anything you were saying, we're saying. My sound effect with me is this is really, this is real. So how long until Death American is started right away? Because when I left f JAM, I had already started. Like Slayer was signed to deaf Jam originally, Danzig was signed to death Jam originally, and Dice. I can't remember if Dice was if I had already signed Dice or not when I remember going out to lunch with the Russell and saying, you know this isn't gonna work. I don't the relationship with Columbia is bad. And oh so what that meeting that I told you about, the start at the beginning again meeting? When that meeting, after that meeting, I told Russell, you know this is not good. We can't do this anymore. And the way that Columbia ended up fixing it was to write a big check to death Jam without dealing with any of the problems. It was just a check and Russell was cool with that, and I was not cool with that. So that was sort of the you know what, I don't think we can do this anymore. Like this doesn't feel right. And I said to him, I said, do you want to leave the company? And he said I don't want to leave and I said, okay, I guess I have to leave. And it was just like that, there wasn't I thought it, Yeah, yikes, because you left before well you left after the beast he's left, correct left after ye? Yeah? How did um did you and UM like uh at Rock or any of them? Did you'all have have conversations about why you both left or interestingly interestingly, we have never really discussed it, and it's definitely an elephant in the room that would be good to discuss, and we just never did. But I'm sure it will happen. It may happen next week, like it'll happen. What were your thoughts on Paul's boutique. I loved it. I thought it was the I remember listening to it at the Montreal Hotel, me and Chuck d together. We were We were there because I think Public Enemy was gonna appear somewhere in California. I don't know whether it was a club date or a TV show, but we're at the Mandreal. We got an advance. I don't even know if it was an advance. It might have just been like from the studio, like they had just finished it, and me and Chuck listened to it and we both thought, oh my god, this is the greatest thing we've ever heard. This is the future hip hop like this is. It doesn't get better than this, and we were shocked that it was not as well received as we thought. It deserved to be the thing that I remember the most, at least your first year of death American was all the press that you got. As far as the Ghetto Boys were concerned, how did they come how did they come across your radar? And what was it about them that drew you to them? And all the ensuing controversy that came with them? Like, yeah, I had never heard like n w A was already happening. Well maybe just the Easy E album. I don't know if there was an n w A album yet. There was an Easy E album for sure, and I loved easy And then I heard the Ghetto Boys and I felt like, oh, like where n w A was gangster, this is like hard in that way, but more like more unhinged, more like um horror like like violent, but not violent like a bad drug deal gone wrong, like violent like a horror movie, you know, like dismemberment, crazy. And and I just liked the how extreme it was. It spoke to me right away. And I thought that the album um didn't sound It didn't sound as good as it could have. So I remixed the album. I didn't add anything to it or I just basically remixed the album and change the cover and change the name because they were called the Ghetto Boys g H. Yeah, And I thought, you know, it it sounds too ordinary, like they could be the Ghetto Boys, but should be the g et Old Boys just because it I don't know, I just thought it was more interesting, um would look better on T shirts as well. Okay, so how how much of I mean? Now, It's like, especially in the environment that we're in right now, as far as like uh, right wing Republican Christian news talking points and those things like you know, now, it's sort of like you collectively roll your eyes or that, you know, like that side of the fences lying but back in like they it seemed like royal threats. And I remember I knew the Ghetto Boys because one Chuck Chuck these shadowed them out on Fear of a Black Panic Planet album. But all the controversy of scar faces lyrics being walking points for everybody running for Senate, any Republican running for Senate or the House using this thing like to this was this manner from heaven like for you is I had controversy and bad news like yes, this is what I want to be your parents worst nightmare. This is the first time ever hearing of that being the case. What Ted White? Ted White, I think who ran Billboard? Oh man? He wrote like paragraphs and dissertations of mind of Alu. I would have never ever like the sure fireway to get a seventeen eighteen year old to buy the ship. It's because Ted White could not a billboard could not stop writing about how violent Scarface's mind of a lunatic was and this needs to be banned and ship. I was like, word, I'm about this ship. Clama parents hated it must be good. Yeah. I always like crazy, you know, I like edgy crazy shit. It's it's interesting to me. It's fun. I mean, but you do realize, like being parents worst nightmare is also like that's great marketing. That's a regged exact candy, Like that's that's so that never excited you at all. No, I never never thought about it because usually I would have to get the calls more like the record company not wanting to put it out, you know. That's what I had to deal with, Like Slayer, Columbia Records refused to put out that Slayer record, so then I had to find a new way to release it, even though the first one was on def Jam, but it wasn't through Columbia because they refused to release it. Then I've made a deal with Geffen Records, which is where that went. And then in my deal with Geffen, I had to have complete creative control where they could never come to me and say they're not gonna put something out. And then when it came to Andrew Dice Clay or the Ghetto Boys, you're like, well, we're not gonna put it out. It's like, the whole reason I'm at your company is because I need a safe place to put out crazy shit. That's why I'm here. This is what I do. And you'll see when you look back on it in time, it'll be the right decision. It'll be like you're too you're too close to the story now. But if you look back in history, important things often stick out like soft thumbs in their day and are hated or vilified, or they burned Beatles albums. You know, man, Elvis was the you know, the devil. What what was it about the Black Crows that excited you to sign them to the label? Did you sign all the acts that were at least on the first run of Death American to the label or was it like did you have a full staff? And you know I didn't. I didn't have a full staff. But there was my friend who I went to school with named George T. Culius, who who's been called out on a BST record. Maybe well, he's also been my boss a few movies that I scored. George. If you're clearing music in movies, Georgia, coolie, is that that's your guy that you work with? Okay? Great? So George was, Um, he was an inter. It's funny. I was an intern at Deaf Jam when I owned Deaf Jam at n y U. And the reason I was an intern was because then I got school credit for working at Deaf Jam. George was George was my intern at Deaf Jam where he got credit in the dorm, and then there was a time when he was my roommate in the dorm. I remember correctly. Um and George he found the Black Crows and that was his both his signing and his production. That was his vision, and the Jayhawks as well. He signed the Jayhawks and never told me that, Hey, wait, all these old Deaf Jam questions are coming back to me. Um the storyline to Crush Groove, Um, how much of that was actual life? I'm trying to get to be kind of uncut. Gym's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Narrative of like did you guys ever have Like that's the storyline of having to borrow money to press up twelve inches or to keep up with demand. That's Hollywood, Hollywood fakery. That's none of that. Okay, just checking, just checking. Um. So outside of Deaf American recordings, can you talk about your your your work with with Johnny Cash and how you got him back to his glory point, because I mean, I would imagine before you two worked together he was sort of waning in the creative department at least, like with the last four records that he worked on with you, that was like probably one of the best storied comebacks in a music career. What was it like working with him? Coolest thing, coolest thing that ever happened in my life. He was a beautiful, brilliant, humble, interesting, quiet guy who studied history off. He had a tremendous amount of wisdom that he didn't offer unless you drew him out, because he was pretty reserved. But if you if you asked him about stuff, he would tell you about it. And he knew a lot about a lot of things, and a tremendous amount about music and the history of country music and folk music. Um, and I learned a tremendous amount being around him. Did you get a chance to personally know him? Like what was he telling you stories of recording for Son and that whole million dollars session thing and everything you ever wanted to know? And um, he would I got to know him personally well. He would stay at my house when he came to l A. I would say at his house if I went to Nashville. Um, I don't know how much we talked about old times unless there was a specific reason to her. If I had a particular interest, he would tell me stories about about Sam Phillips, though he loved Sam Phillips. Which artists opens up to you the most as far as uh, I don't know if you have the same relationship would say a Jay Z that you would with Anthony Keatis. So I know there's different degrees of getting to know your clients as you're producing them. And I know there's an an artist producer trust that has to be established, but I know there's different degrees of that of like which artists I mean, and this is not asking what's your favorite artists you ever worked with. But who's who's the cloist? Who do you know the best that you feel that you're just actual friends with, like really friends? Is that the Mars Bold guys is you know? I feel like I'm friends with a lot a lot of them. I'm just thinking if there are any unique standouts, I would say the people who have made the most albums with That plays a role, just because you're around them more, you know, it's just more hours together. Yeah. So, like, I've been around the Chili Peppers a lot, so I probably know them better than somebody who I did you know a couple of songs with like jay Z. But I feel very comfortable when I hang out with jay Z. I feel like pretty good friends. Feels good. Andrew Dice Clay though, I'm just saying I was. I was pretty close with Dice. I would go out every night to the comedy store after my session and we would hang out in the kitchen of the comedy sort. Chris Rock would be there often. Also, I mean with with the Chili Peppers, how do you how do you see their growth as for more they were in in nineteen Assume that Blood Sugar Sex Magic was the first time you work with him. You didn't do Mother's Milk correct? No, No, Although I like I thought Mother's Milk was their best record to date, that was the Mother's Milk was the record that made me excited to work with them. Okay, So how is it working with him and managing their you know whatever, you have to juggle to make it right as opposed to uh, once they became more like a comfortable shoe that you were familiar with. I'll say, I think it's the same. I don't think um. I think the goal is always to treat people respectfully and honestly late and that happens regardless of how deep the relationship is. I don't I don't think that changes pretty much. The thing we're there to do looks the same either way. The only other thing that I'll say, with the artists who have made many records with another like System of a Down I made all of their albums with. With the bands that that I've worked with several times, there there gets to be a shorthand where like usually the first record we make together, same Tom, Petty, all all of them, the first record we make together takes the longest because we're like filling each other. Yeah, like figuring out a vocabulary of how we're gonna do it. But once that's established, it's much easier after that, but only only out of just that decoding, you know, decoding the system. Do you prefer piecemeal projects as far as getting uh? You know, they just say, look, I just want one song, like you did one song on Justin Timberlakes record for Future Sex Sounds. Damn, that sounds like sex Love Sounds, Future Sex Magic Sounds. I don't know. As opposed to doing an entire album, what what would you what do you prefer? I really like making albums. I don't like doing songs because I think that the nature of the process to get to an album, to get to one song or to get to an album could be the same amount of experimentation, do you know what I'm saying? Like to to find the voice. If you're working on one song, it takes just as long to figure out what that is. It maybe longer because in a way, when you're working on one shot, you only got one shot and it's hard to even know the way in it. But sometimes you'll be working on twenty songs and one song you're like, oh, that's the key to the whole thing. Now it's all gonna work. Do you do you ever run into a situation in which where that trust isn't isn't there where you know an artist is stubborn they feel that you know, well, you know, I'm giving a hypothetical example. I don't know, Like if you can tell Adele okay sing this ship again, give me take nine and she'll knock it out. The part as opposed to again convincing the beastie boys that fight for your right is the song. And trust me on this one? Like how much trust me on this one? End quote? Do you have to go through in your post in your post def jam posts American Recordings career, it's like now in terms of like working with Neil Diamond or even Sames Blake, Yeah, ah, most never, almost never. Trust me on this one. I don't like that the goal is to and I always say at the beginning of a project, it's like everyone has to like it. Everyone here has to love it. If I love it and you don't love it, we've failed. If you love it and I don't love it, we failed. It just means we haven't gone far enough. If we don't all love it, have you ever had to walk away from a project. I've never had to walk away, but I've been walked away on I'm not a quitter. I don't I don't quit projects. But there have been there's been a I can tell you. I can tell you about a couple, uh tell we tried. Like I started an album with Crosby, Sills and Nash and ten years ago twelve about ten years ago, and it was a and there was a case of there being a lack of trust, but the lack of trust more had to do with themselves, like within the band. Like there's another interesting thing. When the Chili Peppers first asked me to produce them, it was before Blood Sugar Sex Magic. It was two albums before that. I think it was Freaky Sidly, the one, the one where it was all of the original members. And I remember a friend of mine whicheveryone had all of the original members because a friend of mine said, who loved them, said, if you're ever going to produce the Chili Peppers, now is the time. It's all of the original members. This is the time. So me and Adam Harvits, beastie boy Adam Harvits, went to a rehearsal in l A on Sunset Boulevard of the Chili Peppers at that time, and it was just a weird, bad vibe in the room, had nothing to do with us. It was just between them. It felt shady and I didn't know what it was. Now I've come to learn later it was drugs, but I didn't I didn't know that. I didn't know what to look for it that time. I just felt like, I think yes, but there was a sense that these guys don't trust each other, like they they didn't look at each other with like. It just felt shaky. The whole thing felt shaky, and it felt like I don't really think this is right for me to be around, Like I don't know how to do this. And another one was Joe Cocker. I went to the studio with Joe Cocker. I had it at the time that I produced a C D C. And I got Malcolm Young to play rhythm guitar on Joe Cocker record, Mike Campbell from the Heartbreakers, Ben Mont from the Heartbreakers. It was a really good band, was really good session and Joe I wanted it to be a very raw, guttural, emotional album and Joe saw himself more like Sting. He wanted to be more like a Sting album, like jazzy stings, like very produced, adult, very adult man. You wanted, he wanted, he wanted his Grammy moment, and I just it wasn't. It wasn't so much as I don't feel like I quit. It was just like our visions were so different that it just no one was really interested. We didn't nobody wanted to make the same thing, so that one didn't happen. Yes, but considering how many albums I've made, I could count on one hand, less than one hand, how many times it has not worked out. You mentioned a C D C. And I'm gonna forget this question. Are are they? Do they have an iota or or are they even remotely aware of how much flick of the switch has changed your life personally? Other than what I told him, you know, I told I would tell him, it's like their their music. They have no idea that that one note has is that where it's from. I don't even know. I just randomly switch. No, No, I knocked the bells and just the trademark. Rick Ruben Okay, I always wanted to know. I wouldn't even know. It's so funny. I wouldn't have even known that that's what it was. I just literally every time, it's like, oh, I think it's on an A C d C record, and I just hunt through every track until I find something and something like that man hip. Okay, so L's sophomore record. It's interesting, unusual, unusual story. I don't believe I've ever told it publicly. Um At the time that I met L, he was being raised. His mom was in the picture, but he was mainly being raised by his grandmother, and he didn't know his dad. And then we made our first album together, and then he became L cool J probably seventeen at that time. And then LLL's dad appears, Oh wow, and he comes back and LLL obviously wants his dad and his and Russell was managing LLL and ll L if I remember correctly fired Russell and hired Jimmy, his dad, to be his manager, and I just I just felt like it was a bad vibe, like we I never discussed it with L. We never talked about it. It just felt like something's going on here that's dark, and this is not energy for me to be around. This good is not going to come from this situation, and I just sort of bowed out and then it ended up it ended up turning bad um sometime. I don't know how much longer, but I think there would ended up being problems between Ell and his dad after that. But it just, yeah, it just felt too shady, felt too um. I didn't like that they were not nice to Rustle when Russell really cared about l like firing a guy who was really working for you. This new guy coming in the scene kind of under questionable. Yes he was his dad, but still, why wasn't his dad before? He was a cool right? It was just it just felt very weird. Can you explain to me what exactly was your role in Jesus and in the life of Pablo, because it's just to see the credits on the albums, I'm just assuming that you're in a room with over twelve to twenty chefs and everyone's just throwing ideas in well, just based on looking at the album credits, like exactly, it's not not exactly how it worked. Kanye built up the material over years for the for that what ended up being Jesus. Okay, when he first came he called me. He called me and said, hey, I want to come over and play in my new album. Okay, It's like great. He came over and we listened to three hours of music yo with almost no vocals, like just yes, and it's like wow, cool, it's like off to a good start. What do you know? What are you thinking you're gonna you know, make you think you'll finished next year or something. He's like, it's coming out in three weeks. And said, what it's like it made no sense. And then and I played on Black Sabbath. I said, you know, ad this Black Sabbath album that's done and mastered, and that's not coming out in three weeks, that's coming out later than that. It's like this, this is what it sounds like when it's coming out in three weeks. And and he said, I want you to help me finish it. I wanted to be like, let's finish it. And and it was a terrifying experience because I've never worked on anything like that. I don't like to work on a deadline ever. Anyway, It's like I always feel like it it sort of happens as it's supposed to happen. Something's happened very quickly. Some things take a long time. L L's first album probably took less than a month to record. And when I say less than a month, meaning a song a day that's on the album over the course of a month. Do you know what I'm saying? Not in the studio every day for a month, like I got a new track, let's go in on Thursday, that happening totally a month. Was the First Beast with the First Beast These album was probably two years in the making, and it just took that long. It just took not every day again, it was like it just takes a long time because the you're waiting for the ideas to come. It's like it's not pre written. We're writing it now. Now most of the artists I work with, we don't go into the studio until it's mostly all written. So it's a different it's a different experience, and that could happen in a much shorter time. Wait, so, did Kanyie already have his verses written but they just weren't on on the tracks. No? No, it wasn't even clear what the songs were gonna sound like or what was going to be on the album. It was a very wide range of songs and it was super cool. It was cool. I've come to learn that's the way he works. This was I never worked like that before, so it was unusual to me. To him, it was standard in the past. When I've said he wrote you know, half of the lyrics on the last two days. That like I'm saying, he doesn't care about it. That's not at all the it's his process is living with it. He's singing to himself internally all the time, and he doesn't like to commit. He doesn't commit it down until it's gonna stay because otherwise it's gonna change. So he doesn't like if he would have done if he would have played me songs with vocals done, the album already would have been out. In the way he works, Yeah, I was gonna say, I remember whatever day that Jesus came out. I remember texting you maybe like three days before, just doing some okay, is it going to happen or not? Because I think they had a pushback date or whatever. It was like a day that I was supposed to come out and it didn't, and you were like, we're literally in the middle of trying to wrap up, right now, and I was like, wait a minute, if you're in the middle trapping right like doing it right now? And then is the record pressed up? And like I'm thinking in terms of the old system where you had to turn it in three months ahead of time, factory all those things, and literally, well, even with Pablo, you guys were still editing and changing it. And next thing I knew I had three different versions of the Pablo record because he just kept changing over again. I remember when we finished Jesus and it came out about a week later. A week or two later, kind of came to the studio in Malibu and just we just started talking about what do you think is next? Like what do you think the next one is going to be like? And he was kind of excited to at least start marching in a direction, and we just started brainstorming and we had an idea then that actually ended up it ended up not being so much what not so much what Pablo is like, But it has come around to that eventually. But the but after we had a similar conversation the end when Pablo got delivered, I was in Hawaii and I remember getting, you know, new versions of the album every day to listen to and give my notes. And I was giving notes every day. It's like I just listened. I would drive up and down the road here in Kauai and listen and like, Okay, this is you know, this is working. Let's remix this, let's try this, and whatever notes, you know, anything that I could add to help make it better. Um. And then I talked to Kanye again, like it was now a ritual a couple of weeks after the record comes out, and um, and I said, oh, so, what are you thinking about? What are you what are you working on? He's like, I'm working on this mix on SO and so. It's one of the songs on Pablo. It's like, that's out. What are you talking about. It's like, well, yeah, it's out, but I'm not done yet. Like really, It's like, I it's just like, blew my mind. The conversation blew my mind because up until well yeah, in my over the course of my life, once it came out, that was it. So to just that his ability to see pass well, just because that's the way it always is. That means the way it is. No, It's like if I want to change it, I'll change it and I'll change as many times as I want. It's incredible, blew my mind loved it. Wow to me hearing hearing the Jesus record um, And you know, I admit that i'd consume most of my music now via my iPhone and my computer, not in the same way that I would have, you know, twenty years ago, like and put in the stereos and yeah, that sort of thing. So first I was, I was, the mix was just really harsh to me. And then once I heard it at Madison Square Garden with no drums, I mean, the thing was like, drums is almost non existent on this record. And then I realized that, oh wow, this album was made for stadiums and dadiums. Only when you guys are working in the studio, are you blasting the music at the highest levels possible? Like is he violating the don't kill your ears in the studio thing? Or because I was taught like when you're in the studio, you're supposed to have soft volumes so that way you don't kill your ears when you're mixing. But I know, like rappers, not to pay him as quote rappers, but I know that we you know, want to hear that ship loud and you know, hit the ox button now like that sort of thing. But uh, we listen. We listen at realistic levels. So in other words, if the thing we're making is meant to be heard loud, we listen to it loud. And we don't have giant speakers. We just use regular you know, like the monitors that would sit on the desk. We don't use big giant monitors. Um okay, Kanye uses some some big ones with with that are much louder than the ones that we have in the studio that I always requested to be turned down because too much for me. Um, you're tu for a while you were president of Columbia Records. Why did you decide to take a desk job? And why? I mean how how was the experience for that that that tenure as president of Columbia. Uh, it was not a desk job, which is why I entertained. And my thought was, the thing that I do on Records has has very little to do with music. It's like my style of production. It would it would work regardless of whether it was music. It's like a way to look at things. It's a re contextualization of what we're working on and solving problems. I happened to do it mostly in music because that's just how it ended up. But the idea was to apply the same like what would it be like to produce a record company and um, and there were other people to do though the desk work, and this was to be more of a helping curate the best artists, helping the artists make the best records that they can. Basically the same thing that I do, except on a bigger scale. And at the time we by the time right till the end there Columbia Records went from sort of a not great roster too, maybe the best roster in the business at that moment in time. The corporate politics of it were not something that that suited who I am, and I didn't engage. So basically it would be like if you're running for offer for office and you're fighting with you're in a debate with someone who's screaming at you and lying and cursing. I'm not doing that. So ultimately the situation worked in a way where it wasn't really good. It could have been great, and it creatively was great, but had had the politics not come into it, I think we would still be doing it And will you ever establish a label? Well, I don't know. There's a need to establish a label in whatever the version of starting a deaf jam or or Deaf American or Colombia. Will you ever dive in that pool? Again? Are you fine with the zone that you're in right now? If there are any acts that I want to work with which are few and far between, that I want to sign, then I have a relationship with Universal where I can sign an act and it will be on American and it will come out and I don't have to have a staff. It's like they do the record company part and I could be the creative partner. And that feels about right. I mean, if there was a reason to reinvent the label or help them get better, I'd be open to discussing. It's like I like making. I like the challenge of making something good whatever. It is like figuring out how do we make this better. I always wanted to ask you about Sir mix a lot Man. What you signing him? My buddy, yeah, shout, my my buddy. Dan charnis Um who yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And he brought up a real we had him on the show, like when we first started, like a couple of years back, and he brought up a really interesting thing I never really noticed about you of like, he noticed you kind of tend to go for kind of nasally mcs, like at rock Mix a Lot, you know what I mean, they have that kind of similar tone. Um, so I was curious, you know, like, what how did you find out about Mix a Lot and what la do you signed him? Uh? Loved the record Posse on Broadway? Yes, yes it was your record. Well this this is all I'm saying, and I'm so glad you brought this up, fante, How did you I never as a Philadelphia and I feel guilty for not mentioning what your relationship to PSK was and by the transit of Vaccium, how did you feel about the way the entire West Coast sort of eight up that particular style because that was with Sir Makes a Lot. That was especially with the first in w A record. Every song was like it was practically the West Coast. Like, were you at all a where of the blueprint that license to ill gave to the entire coast? Not really, I think, probably too close to to see. How also, you know, I come to realize later that Brass Monkey, like there was no such thing as Miami Bass before Brass Monkey, So it's like it it led to a lot of different It had different tentacles that inspired people in different ways, No, no doubt. So it mix a lot. How do you like Plaston Bradway? And then how'd you go about it? And I just reach out to him and said, hey, if there's ever an opportunity to work together, I'd love to do it, and then ended up working out. He's like, well, I'm on my own label. I don't really want to do that now. But and then eventually came around like yep, I think I'm ready to do this. Let's do this. American? Was that on American? Yes? Okay? That was on That was on a Macdaddy album? Okay, And I can't remember. I've heard mix a lot say that I changed the tempo of it drastically in a way that he loves, but like that I heard it differently than he heard it. I don't really remember that, but that I've heard him say that. He's saying that you physically slowed it down. I think I sped it up. They sped it up, but I'm not sure I honestly, I don't remember it at all. He would he would know better than I. I was gonna say, just back on your American stage, there was a record you signed that was. It really took me by surprise that you signed them, because it was unlike anything that you would ever sign or work with before the record. The Knots were ultimate. I don't know if you remember American, Yeah that was. That was a Dan Chariness signing. That was my ship and I forgot. Yeah, of course a bad Lad too? Is that n as well? I think so? Damn Okay, I totally forgot about this too. So what's your A and R is? You just pretty much let them kind of do them, just like if y'all like it, y'all believe in it, I'll funk with it. Like what was your Roland? It was? It was a combination. It's like if they were really passionate, either I had to like it too, or if they were really passionate, it's like this is the one. The whole idea of having more A and R people was not just find stuff for me. It was like if someone really was in love with something, then it was exciting to see what could happen, and it worked out in the case of the if you like those records that Dan signed, and if you like the Black Crows that George signed, then it worked. I got warmer music question before I ask you my last question, because we could be twelve hours working. Well, I know that you produced, and I'm I'm a big fan of the Strokes. I know that you worked on the New Abnormal. First of all, did that title come up in very last minute? No, in relation to where we are now, because that that that's sort of a apropos title, did not It just it was the title that that um that Julian came up with the pre pre virus, and it's again just sort of the universe conspiring to make the art right. I'm assuming that they recorded out in Hawaii with with you. We recorded in Malibu, Okay, which I think is kind of different than all the studios that they previously record recorded their music. And so how hard was it to get the well oiled machine of what the Strokes represented, especially in in the early auts, and I know there was so much pressure on them to be the next big thing in quotes like how much of that was on their minds making this record, because I can only assume that they took a ten year hiatus because of the pressure of living up to something that they couldn't sort of jump over, a hurdle that they couldn't match or whatever. Well, I think that the first record they put out was there considered there like Breakthrough, that's the one that sort of lit everything up. And the second, the second album seems like it didn't change the world, but continued that and then since then it's been more hit and miss um. So I don't think they felt a tremendous I don't I didn't get the sense that they felt a tremendous amount of pressure. I think they felt like, let's make another album because that's what we do. We haven't done it in a while, and hoping it would be good. You know that it's another like the Chili Peppers. They had asked me to produce an album eight or ten years ago, and uh, they sent me demos and I listened to demos, and I just I couldn't hear. I couldn't imagine how this like, how to make something that interesting with what they sent like it didn't. It was just not a good starting point. And and that's a no from you is does that filter to them that, oh, ship, this might be bad. I don't know. I just I just said I don't think this is right for me. I don't I don't see how to do this. And then on this album they sent me demos and these were probably the worst quality demos I've ever gotten from any artist, in that one track might be a thirty second voice note on the phone, like real, very very basic, like thumbnail sketches, and I listened to that vis and it's like, Oh, this is gonna be great. We gotta make this. It's like I could I could feel what was there was inspiring. It's like you could listen to a twenty second clip and go, oh, if there was a song that sounded like this twenty second clip, I'd listen to that all day. Let's make that. So, is that the beginning of working with you, like one has to send the roughest sketch of a song before you can see the light to see how you can develop it. Or does everyone do the Kanye thing where it's damn near complete it and then you just you can add the finishing touches to it. There's no rule. There's no rule, it's um like, have you ever built an album from the ground up? Like okay, so less songwriting sessions, but like with the Chili Peppers, I would come to rehearsals pretty early on. We would probably go through they might they might have written a hundred songs for every album we did, and we would talk about him and narrow him down, and what was it about under the Bridge that attracted you? The way that it happened was just based on the lyric. It was a lyric that I found in Amphonies, book of of poetry, and I asked him what song is this? And he said, that's not really Chili Pepper song. That's more of a like personal thing, more of a poem. And I said, well, how would you sing it if you were to sing it? And he sang it for me. He's like, he said, it's like it's a ballads not it's not a Chili Peppers thing, and and he sang it to me and I say, it's really beautiful. And people like the Chili Peppers not necessarily because you're a funk band with rap lyrics. People like the Chili Peppers because they like the music you for guys make And if this is an example of something good that you make. I think I think people will accept that. It's like, that's you don't have to put such a limitation on what what the band is. It's like, it's about the band, is about the people in it. What's so great about the Beatles? If you listen to their early records and their late records, they don't sound like the same band. And that's just in seven years that arc? It is there an act that you never with the exception of Bill Whether and I know the stories of you pursuing them, Um, is there an act that you would have liked to have worked with it? You never got a chance to a live alive or not alive or disbanded or not disbanded? It well, obviously Beatles are led Zeppelin or any of the like. Has McCartney ever approached you about producing a record or Fishbone or you know, yeah, I met with McCartney and talked about making something has not yet happened, but you never know. I would be interested to see how that works. What made you settle down into the podcast world and was it the allure of doing it with Malcolm Gladwell and was headlam or like, why do you why is that now another part of your wait? Can I give a small preface for this question? So I did your very first podcast, correct, was that something like that? One of the one of the one of the first time is like the pilot. But yeah, mirria're in there, Okay. I literally had no idea what I was walking into because, you know, sometimes my business being just a little bit jankie. So I was. I was all my way to the studio thinking I was doing a QLs episode because it was the same studio wherever we interviewed Heather Hunter or that jazz studio that Steve recommended. I got there and I was like, oh, ship, I'm here to do a QLs episode with Malcolm Gladwell. And then I was like, wait, where's where's lay and everyone at? And then I was like, wait, Rick Rubin, you're on this episode two? And I just winged it, and about twenty minutes into it, I realized, oh, I'm here. I gotta read my emails better. I'm here to do there. That's the interview you gotta prepare for right in me or like being an interview by at least those two. Sometimes I fly with the seat, you know, with with just freestyling a podcast show and having new clue what I'm there for and just getting lucky. So when I did their episode, I literally went to that building thinking it's a Malcolm Gladwell episode of Quest Love Supreme. And then when I saw Rick Rubin's face on the television thing because he did it by monitor, I was hella confused. I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? I had to run another room and like call, like, wait what am I doing? Because you're doing someone's fun. How did new it? So? But yeah, talk about why you even chose to put that into coinity. Uh was friendly with Malcolm and I loved his podcast, Revisionist History, and he told me he had an idea to do a new podcast around music and asked if I would be interested in being involved, and I thought, I'm a fan of his work. Be fun, it's like dudes up with Malcolm. I wouldn't have normally, Uh, I probably wouldn't have chosen to do a music podcast on my own at that time, just because I feel like talk about music most of the time in my normal life. It's almost like the podcast would be to talk about something else that I'm interested in. I don't even know what that would be like. There are a lot of things, so it's hard to say I never thought about it, But this was more his invitation made it seem like, oh, that'd be fun. I love what he does, so maybe I'll learn something about podcasting doing something with him. Yeah, it seems like y'all don't ever have to worry about guests. So I was I was kind of cramming and I was listening. I was just about to say, like, yeah, that was like, especially when you talked about like beyond moments. We were had made a note about that in the moments that are just beyond, and you were talking about how just these moments in your life where it's like if you did not do one thing, these other things wouldn't happened, like if you would have stayed in Chicago. Chicago right back, we were listening together. Yeah, yeah, we we have a lot of mutual friends in common. So just hearing of your evolution, your spiritual evolution, your physical evolution. You know you you've been definitely uh kind of a life goal mission for me at least where you are with your life and everything, Like what's your daily routine? And I know, like surfings played a part of it, and all that stuff in Kauaie. Now I've been doing a ninety minute walk every morning on the beach, barefoot, a lot of sun and listening to podcasts that ninety minutes that's that's where I listened to you. If I listen to one of your pieces, it'll be while I'm walking on the beach. And that's the very first thing every day. And I get that out of the way and then I can start focusing on work or whatever else there is to do for the rest of the day. But I feel like having that right when I wake up because if I wait, if I wait an hour, I won't do it. Facts that's me. And if I wait an hour, not only will I won't do it, I'll eat. You do something you do some definitely eat because if I'm sitting around and I'm hungry, if I'm walking for ninety minutes, I'm not thinking about food because I'm involved in the podcast or book on tape and I'm walking and enjoying myself and my mind is completely occupied because I'm very you know, I listen to things that I'm interested in and learned stuff and it's great. I look forward to it every day. I feel like I run out of time, you know, Like I listened in the car on the way I listened on the beach walk, I listened on the way back. And then usually I have stuff to do to start my day, and it's like, but but I have so much more research to do, I have so many more things to listen to, and I run out of time. Yeah, that has coquarantine been like for you? Rick? What? What? What is what changes quarantine? Like just kind of how we're in quarantine now and kind of be in lockdown. What is that like for you? It hasn't changed so much other than the fact that we're in Kauaii because normally we wouldn't normally be in quiet now, we'd be in Malibu, but because Malibu is locked down, Kauai is lockdown. Two. We were here in over the holidays and we were going back to start I was going back to start a new Avid Brothers album first week of March, and then I got a call days before saying, hey, stuff's getting sketchy. We're thinking maybe we should just stay home. And it's like, perfect, I'm staying here. You guys, stay home. Let's you know, let's wait a minute and figure out what's happening. And that leads us to today. How severe is it in Hawaii right now? As far as there are no cases on the island, which is unbelievable. This island, there's no there. There are seven islands of Kauai there, you know, half hour flight apart, but this this one has none in Kauai has like a lower population. Yes, it's very few people and they're far apart, and it's a great place to be on quarantine. Again, we if we weren't here, I don't think we would have come here for it. But the fact that we were here and the opportunity arose, it seemed like a good choice. The universe again was smiling on us. Still still have those uh those dogs? I saw you once with the dogs with the mop I have. I have one. His name is Champa. I had too before him named. The current dog's name is a yellow. The two prior work Chomp and Monday Chumping. Monday passed away at nineteen years old, and now Chompa is Monday's brother, brother's son. I think so in the family and he's probably twelve now. It wasn't a pack of them I could have sworn as seem like a family of them. I have you before, and now I have one. I saw one and then the other one the other follow wherever one would go, Okay, I remember that. Yeah, I want to know, man, do you still when you're working out your ideas? Um? Are you like still making tracks or does it start on an instrument? How do you flesh out the ideas that you may have? It really depends. I don't. I don't do it for the sake of doing it. So it's more like if there's a reason to make something, if there's a from working on a project that needs a piece of music that needs to start with me, which I'd prefer not to do. I like. I like laborating. I like hearing something and finding pieces that I could make into the thing that that I want to make, as opposed starting from scratch. I have to start from scratch. I can, but it's not my favorite thing to do. UM And if it is, I'll either make a beat on a drum machine or I'll start with a sample and then build up a track around the sample and then either keep the sample in, remove the sample, mess with the sample. Yeah, are you using like Ableton, or like what software? We usually do everything in pro Tools, although it's still you know, just still out of you know. I don't know any better, and I don't know how to ren pro tools. I don't really I'm not a technical person at all. I just can say I like it, like this, let's change this beat. When you take on a project, do you stay on that project or are you able to hop from project to project? Like uh, okay, I'm gonna work with Chili Pepper is at the studio on Monday and then running do the Dixie Chicks next week over there and blah blah blah, like or are you stay? I do you? You hire me? And we If it's over three months, then we're in trouble, Like how do you schedule the first one? Because it's I don't think it's possible to say we're gonna put three months on hold and in that three months we're gonna make the best album the world has ever heard. I don't. I don't. I don't believe in that. I don't believe it's possible. Maybe some people can do it, I don't know. I don't know how that works. So every project has its own rhythm and as I said, sometimes it happens very quickly. Sometimes it takes a long time, and I don't I try not to do it as much as possible based on my schedule. It's always about the artist schedule. And when I say the artist schedule, I don't mean the artist schedule of women want to go on vacation. I mean the artist schedule of when the idea is hot, you know, when the songs are ready. We have to find a way that, when the moment is right to make it, that we can make it. And I can think of very few times in my life where it hasn't worked out where at a time I might have been making five albums at the same time, back in the days when I would have to go from studio to studio. It might be We're doing overdubs with this artist and I'm working on just vocals with another artist on a different album at a at same time. Maybe I do noon to noon to three with one artist and three to six with another artist that way, or maybe I'm doing pre production with one and working on mixing with another, and it could be as many as four or five or six going on same time. It's not unusual because some of them could go on for years. You know. I work with engineers and each project usually I try to have an engineer dedicated to that particular project, like a tag team partner. So and and also I like to work like in the old days, I used to work all night, drive home as sun was coming up. Now I'm on an early schedule, so I like to have the session started like noon or one, and I like to be done by six. Now that doesn't mean like on the Strokes album which uh we just you know made recently just came out three weeks ago or something. I would come from noon to six, and then I would leave a list to do list so the band could go on working as late as midnight if they, you know, they band could work as long as they want and have a list of things to do in addition to anything that they would want to try on their own. And then the next morning I would come in, we would review what happened the night before, and then we would start on the day's work. I gotta try it. Yeah, And and and I've also, by by making a lot of albums, have come to realize when my voice is particularly helpful in the process, and sometimes it's in pre production it means a lot. In the basic track, it means a lot. Getting the vocals, it means a lot. But many of the other times, during overdubs, during guitar solos, I usually, if I trust the artist, I let them do it, and then I might come in, Like with Tom Morello, if we're doing on either Rage record or an Audio Slave record, He'll do solos on everything, and then I might come and say, you know, those are all great, and this one's not as good like we gotta and then maybe redo this, or if there's ever ones where it's like, let's work on this one together for some reason. If you if you can't crack the code on his own, then we'll do it together. But I don't like to hold an artist's hand. I don't like to um. Ultimately, if the artist feels like they've done everything themselves, that's the best feeling for me. Like I don't want I don't want it to I don't want the process to be about me. Uh, life lessons I want and only life lessons. Don't make it about you and walk the first thing in the morning. I don't want the process to be ugly for you. See, that's the one thing, because you know who downstairs always says, See, Rick walks early in the morning, and you don't do that. So now I'm gonna have to wake My answer is six, and you wake up. Your first thing is because I'll create a bunch of excuses I have to get up at six and walk. All right, thank you, Rick. I will now reach my goal of to pounds. I'm gonna walk because Rick said, Because Rick said so. Anyway, Rick, dude, this is this has been what like four years in the making. Yes, exactly. I have a suggestion quest, which is every day for the next let's make it three weeks, when you go on your walk, just send me a message at the end saying I walked this a long today. Just just a little check in, like, hey, did this today? Accountability I will do so. Yes, just about accountlitner. I'm about accountability, and I'm about integrity. Yes, about integrity. To twenty is right around the bin. I'm ready for this ship. You can send a group text to all of us and we'll go, Yeah, we finished ours too, y'all gonna be alright. So I'm the half of Sugar Steve. I'm paid bill by Fontagelo and be great incomparable Rick Rubin four years. We've been dying for this. My name is us. Love this plus Love Supreme. We will see you on the next round. Thank you urs. Love Supreme is a production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Questlove Supreme

Questlove Supreme is a fun, irreverent and educational weekly podcast that digs deep into the storie 
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