Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brauer talks about the art of engineering, his studio secrets and what it was like working with artists such as Coldplay, Luther Vandross, Aretha Franklin, Grace Jones and more.
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Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brower talks about the art of engineering, his studio secret and what it was like working with artists such as Coldplay, Luther Vandross, Aretha Franklin, Grace Jones, and Moore. This was episode fifty six from November first, two thousand seventeen. Suma so Surema Row called Subrama son Supremo Row called sagrama son son Sma Rogue called Sugrema So. Quest Love is single, Yeah, Quest Love is free. Yeah, Quest Love is dancing. Yeah. Quest Love is on the bum road called Subma s roll call my name is Fonte, Yeah coming through when the clutch. Yeah. I can give you a little but never too much. Number two must sure roll call Surema Suma role my name is Sugar. I'm never sour that purple room give it back brown Sua sua role called Suprema rolls bill ain't ready Yeah, ready to start? Yeah, rewrote my roll call had to change of heart roll roll call small Yeah with Mike and his hands. Then touch Key Joe Cole play hold No God, damn Brower, Um Brower. I don't know what else to say, but brower, roll roll call Srema Suma, roll call, Sumama roll call. Well like you actually hit the on the head, right, I could just name them all. Luther, Change Man, Ingredients, Caryl Lynn, Grace Jones, Jones, Girls, Queen Guthrie, Angela Bofield or Aretha Franklin, James Brown, Tevin Campbell, Gladys Knight, Meat Lot, Tony Bennett, Paul McCartney, David Byrne, Billy Joel, Uh, Hall of Notes, Kick Rio on the Coconuts, Glennon Joe, and now the show's overla alright. Now what they all have in common is uh probably a very distinct sound. UM. Probably most notably Luther Vandro's had such a sheen and such a clean text or to his music, which I feel defined eighties FM Radio brought to you none other than the master engineer with us today on quest of Supreme. Welcome Michael Browner to this show. Guess, thank you, thank you. Now. My my personal favorite shows of any shows that we do, UM are with the President Company excluded, Looking at Sugar Steve. Are are the engineers UM? Because they to me, shape the sound of the artists that we love so much, you know what I'm saying, and uh, more than you know. Often I don't even think the artists really know that. I don't think the artists know much of the science that goes into the product that they delivered, But the engineer can explain it. So we thank you for doing this with us. Honored, Yeah, honored you. Uh you you agreed to do this so for our audience, that's not too deep technical nerds, what is the role of an engineer to get the vision of the artist down on tape as closely as possible, to record it in a way that when you put the faders up, you've got the feel of that song nailed. Okay, So it's more than just a documentation of of the event, but trying to get the emotion and a feel across. Now, often are you part of because people don't know that tracking a song it is different than mixing a song. So is it important for you to actually record the song so that you can really determine the control of what comes in? Can we can we wind a little bit? What's the difference between what is tracking? Okay, Well, it is tracking. There is a big difference between tracking and mixing. Tracking is when you're recording all the instruments to multi tracks, too many different tracks that you can control the volume over later. And so how you record the drums and how you record the vocal and the bass, all that is very very important to make sure that the field of that song comes out properly. And um, I started at a studio called Media Sound, which was an R and B studio primarily on and I just spent seven days a week in there, just you know, starting as an intern and then working my way into an assistant. But the point that I watched that I that was made clearly is how great the engineers were at the studio and how well they they recorded the sounds so that the artists would come in and just go, oh my god, this is exactly the way it should sound, and you know, and and um it would change from song to song. Media is where you first enterned, like that was your Yes, Media Sound was my first gig. What year was this? This was seventy six, and then I was an assistant by seventy seven and then an engineer by sight. Wait why did that whole process take me eight years? You know? Times are different. I mean, back then everybody moved up pretty quickly. On it was just I've just noticed how quickly it slowed down. I mean it was a time as media sound down, and many of the studios you had an engineering staff comprised of the staff engineers and then the assistance that were being taught by the engineers, and then the interns, and eventually the engineers would move on and assistance would move into that slot. And then around seventy nine or eighty, when the bottom fell out a disco and all the labels were basically getting rid of their roster, studios couldn't afford staff engineers anymore, and they only had on payroll the assistance. So moving up to become an engineer slowed down dramatically by two or three years because the engineers coming through we're all transient, you know, they were just coming in for a bit and then moving on, and so studios just wanted basically professional assistance. So are you seeing that from the mid seventies to the very early eighties that there was actually a boom and upward h mobile movement? Because when I hear any veteran of the music industry talk, they always speak of, you know, the slow down period of of a particular part of the recording industry. You know, some people think that period was like, well, the early eighties. You know, the industry was over and it was over musically almost every period every year it's like it was over. It was over. So well, you know, the studios were starving because there were no more acts coming in. They had all been dropped, right, so um. But so in order for studio to stay open, they couldn't have staff engineers also on payroll, so they forced pretty much most of the engineers to go independent. So when people say, like thrillers save the record business, like that is not much of an exaggeration because from the period that you're saying, like those early eighties, like it was kind of it was a time when when bands came in and they had carte blanche with a budget. And I remember this distinctly because of our food budgets. I mean what we ate Jenny Launch and dinner was amazing. And then one day none of those bands showed up anymore. They were all off the roster. Uh. And then you know when it started to bands were starting to come in and say, okay, so what do we do first food budgeting. Oh no, no, no, no, no, we don't have that anymore. Nis. Do you think that MTV sort of helped with that as well? I mean, of course with Thriller? Yes it was the Yeah, I think it was super important. It's also important that bands that were maybe mediocre but had great presence via MTV just became huge hits. So who do you remember your Did you get a job at the studio as an intern because you what? Were you in love with music or was it just like I gotta get a job with me? I was a drummer on the band. It was just a cover band and we were out in the Midwest. Um, and I I liked what I was doing. I wasn't sure that I was going to be good enough to make a living off of it. But I had gone to Eastman School of Music right when I graduated, for it was like a two three week course, and it was there where I met on Well, there were there were a lot of a lot of people, but one of them was um Phil Phil Phil No, no, no, his name, Oh my god, it'll come back to my But anyway, anyway, Um, what was an engineer or no, it was a great producer. He just recently done. I can't believe I just Phil Ramon, Phil Ramon, thank you very much. And you know, until then, I was I was pretty scared of what they were. They were very technical and I didn't understand anything they were saying. And ah, I was thinking, man, you know, I just I was a performer. I want to continue doing that. And how's this going to go on with with people just talking about e q s and reverbs and wet and dry? And I was like, oh my god. And so it was after a day of lessons and um, we're all sitting around and Phil Ramon is talking at a table and we're just sitting around and he's, you know, he's just talking about how when he's mixing and his hands are moving and and it's a table like go, wow, this looks like he's performing. And I thought, man, this could be amazing. And there was at that point, just watching him describe how he mixes. I thought, this, wou is perfect. This is what I want to do, you know, I want to continue performing. And it just to me it was like instead of playing drums now playing the console, when did the days of like I'll see old studio photos of the Beatles and even some James Brown studio session photos and like engineers were actually dressing like engineers with the white lap Like when did when did that particular period come to an end for engineers? Like that was mostly going on in England man Abbey Road. I didn't see unless there was a couple of studios where the jazz studios where that was very evident. But I never saw any of that. I don't think that was really going on in uh in any of the American studios. So how how important is math and equations to you? Like? Do you go, I'm a guy that goes on feeling like I'm you know, I'm just learning about different dB levels and hurts hurts and you know, overdriving the thing. You know with hip hop, it's just like more about feel as opposed to you know, science. A guy like Bob Power would say, well, you know, too much base, uh four level base will cause your record to skip and dada dada, so you got to balance it and take it. You know. He come up with these equations because I know that you're you're calling card or your signature is how you use compression, which I used to think compression was the enemy of music, but you made it work. So like how important is is? I feel? Everything else is a coincidence. I mean you can analyze it and go, oh, he does this and he does that. Or when I started with mixed with the Masters, where I needed to teach and actually verbalize what I've been doing, That's when I had to actually kind of study what I'm doing. But it was always by feel. If I was looking for a delay, I would just turn it till it went you know, if I slap on a vocal, I would just keep moving it too far, too little, and just m that's not right in but you know, I mean I'm not making a joke. I mean that's when he gets on the board, he just you know, he'll he'll boost up the level and then sweep sweep the frequencies. And so that's how I learned. That's interesting because throughout my when I was I guess out of college, I was interested in being an engineer, and then I realized the science of it, and I figured at some point, even though you are doing it through ere, at some point it's like you have to know the formula of mega hurts into this and goodness, I didn't have to do that, because then I would have never could have been That's actually what kept me from doing it, because I almost was a music engineering major in college, and then I saw all the physics classes inquired Well, you know, it's interesting you say that, because I was terribly intimidated by people who talked like that, I mean really really bad, and I would have to leave the room when they start talking to Oh my god, I'll never be like that. They're so smart, you know. And there and I'll give you the best example where I learned my lesson and this they changed me forever. Um. It was a media sound and we have just started. It was right after outside engineers are now being allowed into studios because the media sound, you there were no outside engineers. You came to Media sound to work with their engineers. But with the desk, death of disco and studios opening up. Um, there was this engineer and so he's describing, you know, we're just in the lounge or just hanging out, and he starts saying, yeah, I've got this acoustic guitar sound and I've not this m S positioning where I've got ever two inches one mic over the other. And then I bring it up and I bet you know, it's like beer and baseball to me, you know, And I'm like, oh my god, I'm just and I started getting that feeling in my stomach where I'm just like, oh man, I'm never going to up. And I was just like, man, this, I just wish good Sky would shut up because I just, you know, it makes me feel awful because I don't know what he's talking about, and I'll never do that. So I go, hey, can I hear what you're doing? He goes, yeah, yeah, come on in. It was in studio way. It's beautiful room. I know it, you know, every inch of that room, and he plays it and it was crap. And I was just like, wow, that is not good at all. And I said, oh, thanks man. No I didn't say no. I was just like, I said, did you say that? You know, I'm just thinking myself, man, what an idiot? I am all being intimidated and everything and walking in there thinking this guy is god, you know, and it sounds like crap. And so I left there and I thought, never again will that happened? Because it's always about feel and I don't anybody start talks big yeah. If I go in and I listened to it. It sounds good, then I'm going to be curious to see how he did, and I'll be interested in learning. But all the talk talk talk, and all the numbers you need to know, and you know that anything and and b it never meant anything. I mean, you know I learned. You know it was because of being around Luther, and you know that that whole crowd, in that whole field that I started mixing in the up on the upbeat, Like I never really moved much. I used to move down, and I'd be the only guy in the in the room on the feeling, you know, on the down and every and I look around everybody else heads are popping on the up. You know. I was like, well I would try that and I'd fall out of him. I'm like, I really am the only white guy in this room. You know? Can you can you trust your ears in a studio? For me, the final word is when it's yeah, when it's outside the studio. And I know, like most studio speakers are intentionally built to be more dry than what your home experiences. Like, how how often can you just know okay, this is this is it? I really trusted my speakers. UM, I would take it home, but it was never My speakers at home were never accurate. They were kind of whacked, and so I stopped doing that. UM, and I listened to headphones. But then I was intimidated by listening to my mix is UM in my headphones because I was afraid they'd sound awful and I'd hear stuff. So I was I never wanted to put headphones on. UM. A lot of insecurities to get where I am. But you know, I actually what I learned to trust. I was mixing some records in Japan and they had this boom box h and they played back my mix through the boom box. And when I first started doing that, I was like, wow, man, this boom box sucks. It's good at all. And then you go, oh, you know, maybe we fixed this. We fixed it, Like yeah, okay, but I mean, you know, listening to this that's awful. And then it got sounding really really good. And then I listened back to on my pro acts. I was like, whoa, wow, this that's great. I thought, ah, yeah, you just learned something and you've you've probably seen it in my room. It's like this old Sony box. Every song I've ever mixed. I mixed through there, and I trust that radio. So when I know it sounds good there, it's gonna sound good on my proacts, on my A, T C S or you know, all the other speakers, and it's gonna sound good outside. And and I also learned a lot from mastering engineer. I mean the first ten years or so, I mastered everything with Greg Calby at Sterling. So you would you would you wouldn't trust the process of them. You would actually go and make sure that they didn't flatten you out or anything. Well, I was learning. I mean he mastered my very first record, and so I'd go in there because back then it was called Mickey and Becky was a Christians Oh okay, recorded and recorded and mixed and uh they were really great people. I mean so many stories with that record. But you know that was a first record and the cover had a banner, big banner across the two of them, you know making it. Yeah, what the first record? Who were you an apprentice under? When you finally got to assistant? Who's your Who was your My mentors? Um were Harvey Goldberg, okay um and Michael delug On and Fred Christie and Clear Mountain, h Tom, Tony bon Jovi. I mean, there were a lot of great guys, but the two that really took me under the wings were Michael delug and Harvey Goldberg. In your assistant days, what were your clients like? Were they local, accidenty, national, or about everything? I mean fat Back band talking about Wait a minute, you know Tony bon Joey was doing fat back and and uh, I mean just all you know, heavy R and B was name Yeah, well good, good questions? Remember two of them at least? Yeah, fat back, I'm like Spanish hustle. Yes, none of them come to mind. Now I was so long ago. Let me see, would the hustle? Yeah? He as well? Oh yeah now it was. But it was Van McCoy. He was a regular. He was a great guy. Um Man, I don't know how old were you at this point on? I started at twenty five, so at this point in I started pretty late. Were you scared it was older than most of the engineers than Fair Mountain? Wow? Yeah? And Harvey and all those guys. Were you afraid when you finally took the reins on your own or like, how do you make that that leap? Most engineers. I talked to either their league guy like decides to take a vacation or sick that day. And then next thing, you know, well, they were great there because you start off by doing overdubs. Okay, so you would record a guitar overdub, and then you move on to maybe backing vocals, and then you eventually moved towards doing all the percussion and then strings and then horns all separately, and eventually, you know, the day comes and I remember the day I got the call because it's so it's gonna be uh, you know, it's gonna be an AD date. It's gonna be pretty big session. It's just gonna you know, drums, bass, and you know, the rhythm section and then maybe and maybe backing vocals and the singing and stuff like, Okay, that's cool. I can handle all that. And then about ten minutes later, the orchestra show she calls back, she calls, this is for the next day, and Vivian Deluge calls me and she goes, so listen, you know they're also going to have strings and horns um at the same time. It's all live. It was studio way. It was a huge, huge room and she says, you know, I don't. I don't think you're quite ready for that. I was like, no, no, I'm ready, I'm ready. I can do it. I can do it. She goes, you're sure, Yeah, yeah, I'm really sure. Okay. Click. I went over the bathroom just ready to pass down, like okay, I can do this. I can do this. And then she calls back again. She goes, look, I don't know, Michael. Now they've added also a whole whole percussion section, vibraphone, you know. And I was just like, yeah, no problem, it's no problem. Click. So you're saying that typical disco sessions. This was an ad date and so it was for a commercial or you know, for for some kind of who knows anymore. It was a long time ago, but but they had, you know, a lot of musicians. I mean, because the studio during the day we were doing commercials and then comes six o'clock we were doing records because you couldn't get any musicians during the day because they were getting double and triple scale, right, So nobody was doing records during the day because records a single scale back then. So so media sound was very well known for doing commercials from nine am to five PM, and so I'd finished at five take an hour, and then I'd start records until and I was doing double shifts. I didn't care. I loved it. So I want to get into some of your clients, um, Billy Joel before we start with all the the ones you want to talk about, which was Let's back up because with Billy Joel there's some of these acts like Billy Joel and arrow Smith where it was part of a box a box set, you know, I would just do a couple of songs and I never met Billy, I never met Cash from arrow Smith. So those were one offs, which you know, was fun. But I read you also did mixing on Freddy Hubbard. Did you do? Yeah? He did. Red Clay was a direct Clay album, and it was another it was another Ctl record, and that turned out to be, Yeah, he's still in your your swag right now, Red Clay still that I'm dunking it. I'm approaching the hoop um elevating. Uh what about Red Clay, well, because that's rudy right, Yeah, but it was it was after, way after the record had been done, and I don't remember why it had to be remixed. But that show was you know, that album was remixed and it was Steve Berkowitz. I believe that was, you know, the head of that, the live version of the studio version. It was so long ago. I think it was a studio version because you were you weren't coming from the hip hop perspective, studient version that's tried live version as far as that. Ye, um, So, I mean other what other CTI records were you associated with? That was it? I mean again, it was it was going through Sony, through Steve Berkowitz being released. You know, just like the Dylan records. There was a point where they were, you know, they want to do S A C. D. And so a lot of these records were being redone with the Dylan records, the masters have been lost. Oh so you're completely mixing from scratch. You're not just taking the half inch in the final the original. Wow. Okay, so what pressure is that on you? Because I'll notice that this explains a lot when um, like when I go on iTunes and I'll hear variation in the mixes of like the box set versus the greatest hit remastered versus the original version, and you know it will be a ring in the snare and I'll notice different mixes. Um, of course you'll you know, I assume that you'll try and stay faithful to the original. But what keeps you from but you're known for such sheen? Like what if you're doing a project that is okay, if you're doing something from John Wesley Harding or something from like, yeah, it's trash out trash something. It's trash. It's not appropriate to make it anything less than trash. So you do believe in the trash. I love trash. Okay. See, this is the thing that because I was just gonna say, when I was listening to some of your stuff Getting Busy, how dirty get busy is right? I was like, listen, man, I want to make something like that for you because it's dirty, because I don't want to do sheen. Was sheen was years ago? You know that That's what was cool? What times change? The thing is like when I think of, like even when I think of what hip hop was trying to be the anti or go against, especially like with Public Enemy, Like I'm thinking, oh, Luther Androw's because I like, what's the shiniest, most brightest, most clear I mean, now, as a DJ, I respected, you know, because I love when a good mix translates over uh the system. But how how do you think uh as far as like you're definitely did you set out to say, I'm gonna like just redefine what R and B was, because, with the exception of Off the Wall, most R and B records weren't that super clean. Yeah. With Luther, you know it was. I mean, there was nobody like him when he came out, Nobody was singing like him. But um, it was pretty basic R and B. And I think the sound we were getting at media sound. It's not like I did something completely different than what we're already doing there on I think I just he looked at me, goes, you take care of the sound, I'll take care of everything else. And he had met me when I was doing the Change record, and he really liked what I had done with Glow of Love, um, you know and Searching. Those were the only two songs I've done on that record, and he was like, yeah, that's all he needed. And he was like, I really like what you did. You know, He's just, you know, I don't know if I thought you you had my voice a little dry on Glow of Love and I go, yeah, but Luther, you know, it was just like it brought that vulnerability out because yeah, exactly, and I wanted more reverb. Can I ask you guys a question as a novice, like what would be an example of a badly mixed R and B record to get people like a reference point? There was the great I mean not honestly, like for real Prince albums print, yeah, Prince Records. But this is the thing though, that was part of the kind of Prince albums are that, And he admitted that, you know, because he did it in his bedroom, you know what I mean. And the thing is, if you work too much on a song, your ears will start lying to you. I don't know, do you agree with me? Or are you above the no. I like to take a lot of ear breaks if I can. Yeah, Like a lot of times, like okay, a cat like Kanye West will blast, He'll blast his music on the biggest speakers ever and you'll wear your ears out. So a lot of times when you're mixing, you're supposed to mix it on soft speakers, very low level, because the thing is if it sounds good on crappy you know, like your clock radio at home, like what he was saying about his bucks like sound excellent. So you shouldn't wear your ears out and you should take ear breaks. But um, I don't completely agree with that. I really feel it physically. I mean, I start off with the big speakers with my I've got the A T. C fifties and a big gas sub. And when I'm getting the drums and the bass and you know everything else on, it's cranked. But I don't do it for hours. I'll do it for you know, under an hour, clearly, but I'll get to the point where I physically feel it. And when I know where everything is in it's right spot, then I'll start to turn it down. And then I'll progressively get the smaller speakers the point where it's on my radio. But I gotta physically feel what I'm mixing. I gotta feel that bottom in and the kick hit me under the you know, in the stomach, and snare in the chest. And but to finish the point, if those first ten Prince records had a professional scene mix, it wouldn't be the same record age like his. This is where Bill kind of gets mad at me because I'm slicing everything after the love Sexy period, like once Prince upgraded to Paisley's Park Studios and had you know, better, better equipment. I just I hated it. I hated it because it just the songs were great, like and Stevie too, same thing. The songs are great, but I felt the personality was in the mistakes and the kind of like a Wu Tang record, like you know, like Dr Jerry is great for seeing. But I love the risk of in the basement with Mildew and you know the second they went to l A and did would think forever got all clear? Right? And I was like it sounds like everything else, so sometimes only the best won't do. So how how how much of a taskmaster was Luther as far as like his his his discipline is in overtentiveness is unbelievable because I know the concert He's like, what is it like in the studio it was a great experience. He I mean him and and not Adelie who was arranging and on the first record he was this was in studio B at Media Sound and he was in the vocal booth and then the band, the whole rhythm section. You know, it was basically performing recording it live and once he had a great vocal take that was to take. I mean that first album, those are all I barely touched any of the vocals. Those were all the rough vocals. Those were the final vocals on on that first album. When you say touch on what what what what do you mean? I hardly did you know? There was maybe maybe I you know, re record a word or two, you know, just it. But it wasn't even edits. You know, it was all hitting recording in and out real quick, so just jump in and out on one or two words. But you know, it was an incredible first record and it was done in bits. You know, we did, you know, two songs on a weekend. It was over a period of a few months, easily because he didn't have a deal yet. But but to answer your question, when you'd see him get to work when it came time for doing backing vocals, oh my god, it was just in preable to watch because you know, the first he always doubled the backgrounds and who you know, they would be the regulars you have Fonzie and Off, Brenda and Sissy. Occasionally Sissy would kind of come in as a you know, as a guest, but there there was an even Whitney came in a couple of times, but you know, he had the regulars, and then he would do the first pass and then the second pass. He would change everybody around and say, okay, Fons, and you take this note, and I'll take this note, and you know, and invert and invert stuff. And and if somebody just went off a tiny bit or you know, they were doubling and someone else, he'd notice it right away and got no, no, no, fix that. And and so the reason why the backing vocals always sounded so incredible is because he wasn't just doubling. The doubles were always different, really yeah, because you know, he would just have people take different different parts. When you're when you're initially tracking a song, like take all right, let's take never too much? Um that was not up in the lounge. How much pre how much pre uh work goes into you're tracking before you know you have a take? In other words, uh does the band have to play it over and over again until you pre mix it known, I've I get the sounds before they walk in, or well they'll walk in, you know. With never too much would have been Buddy Williams, right, Um, Buddy would have come in and I would have gotten the sounds on him back. Then you'd get these in like ten minutes basically, and so do do do do do sn SNAr snarre, kick kick kicked. Okay, We're good. And then bass that sounds close enough for Luther or or Marcus did not be discouraged, like, I don't know this sound. I'm trying to imagine what a rough mix of Never Too Much sounds like, because to me, the sheen of it all, there wasn't the makeup on it. To me is the product, you know, not the glue, the hair weave it was. There wasn't much difference really between doing the rough in the final mix, because I was recording it that way. I was recording it feeling and final. I was riding the faders during the recording um, and all the monitors were set at basically one o'clock, and so the way I would record is to keep leaving all the tracks at one o'clock. And I did all my rides so that when when i'd have to bring that song back up really fast, I could just do it with a pencil and I'd have my balance the exact balance, because you know, if you got to do backing vocals on four or five songs, it's not like you got ten minutes or fifteen minutes to get a rough mix. You need it right away because they're onto the next song. So you just with a pencil, it goes and there's your mix. And so when it came time to mixing, the mixing took like a couple hours, like two or three at the most. It's crazy. We were media sound. We were If you took more than three hours to mix a song, you were just not cool. Really cool. Yeah, we would mix today. Well, it's it's just that he's saying the exact opposite of what my experiences are. Like, Okay, take on things for all apart take Act to Love My Life, which is pretty much a Root Supporter favorite um. But the rough mix sounded nothing like the final mix, and a lot of my compositions it's strictly done on faith of don't worry, guys, we mix it. It's going to sound like this. Yeah, and it's like you know, and for the longness, Tarik hate it. Like the version, the version that's a rough if a finding concept, maybe I'll leak it out it. I mean, it sucks compared to what the final was. And I just had to be like, yo, man, that's the right to it. No, no, no, But just like just he didn't like it. Common started right into it and I was like, all right, let me have my verse. But because the tracking when we were done, it just it had no life to it. And I was like, dog, just trust me to see my final vision. I'm strings to the thing. I'm gonna mix the snare you know, they have to snaps on it and all this stuff. And then the final mix it was like, Yo, this is nothing like that. But that's what you're doing the production in at the time of the mix, that's what's going on there. That's the difference with Luther. Everything was done as we were recording. All the decisions were made at that time, and so come time to mix, it was just the final process. Everything of the record is done. Now just put it up and write it properly and as you're done. So if you want to put a phasing effect on the base or something, or just a little bit of course on it, you would do that as you're tracking. If if everybody thought it was a good idea, yeah, and then we committed to it. Okay, see all right, you just thought that if it sounds good dry, then it's like okay, this is a song, and then wait till we dress it up. Well yeah, but did it sound good dry? Not really? Okay, that's that's where we went, Well, let's make it feel great, because otherwise we're not going to print it when we recorded, it's got to feel great. Everybody in the room's got to be excited. You said it so much that thought it was like some extra honor. And whoever the engineer was that was mixing the album after it was done, Like I always to my in my mind, I was like, Okay, the recording engineers one thing, but the mixing engineer, that's like a whole other level. That that developed into it where you had guys who were became strictly mixers, like myself. I mean the first person I remember that being like, wow, you know, people are coming to him just the mixing would have been Bob clear Mountain, so it is, and Tony bon Jovi and and uh, I mean Godfrey and a lot of the guys at the studio became just really really in demand for what they could do with these tracks. But you know, let me ask you a question, Michael, um, So, when it started to become this person is a recording engineer or known as a recording engineer, and this person's starting to become solely known as a mixed engineer, did it immediately start to be some kind of like a financial different difference as well, like a mixing engineers notoriously get paid more than recording engineers and mastering engineers. I don't know if they get paid more than mixers, but it seems like, you know, it started to become more separated and very much in the beginning. My question is, why do you think mixed engineers deserve to be paid more than recording I've always obviously they're being paid for their for theirs, but no, I mean to me, tracking or recording. It's pretty hard working cho your ears you're using, and you're spending way more time than I am to mix what you spent weeks and months were recording. But it becomes a specialty, and ah, the more you can really enhanced the vision that the artist had originally and do it in a way that is blowing everybody's minds on, the more in demand you become if you, if you're a mixer, were the only people that like your mixer, your friends probably gonna get all that much work. But in the beginning, everybody who's an engineer was a mixer did everything. You did everything then. But we started to realize that some guys were much better energy and at engineering than they were at mixing, and vice versa and vice versa. I always thought that Bob Power was a way better mixing engineer a tracking engineer, but then master is a whole Another level is like if the mixer is the peasant to I mean, if recording is the peasant a mixer, then mixer is the peasant to masters. Like the last step, that's the last step that you know, hopefully what's mixed. If you're doing it right, the mastering engineer shouldn't have too hard a time, but he probably gets paid the most. I don't know about that. There really depends. But but as you said before, the same thing holds true. Um, if the recording engineer does his job right, then the mixed engineer shouldn't have too over time. There are tracks where if I know I'm getting something from Joe Chiarelli or or a bunch of great engineers and I know I'm gonna be mixing them. I'm like, it's gonna be a good day. Okay. So since you said it, I now think that the mixing engineer has it harder because there's been a lot of times where my mixing guys will be like, like, you know, I understand the nightmare they're going through. Um. But then we have a situation with one of our interviewees where they said that they got it. Who said that, Oh, just Blaze explained that you know, they would get bad uh tracked jay Z songs? Oh yeah, And a guy like jay Z doesn't understand the technical jargon. He's just like, yo, I wan't mistake in two minutes. You know. It's if you're with a client that is not you know, the technically you know up there with this I Q to understand certain things. Then I almost feel like the mixing engineer would get more abuse because it's like, Yo, why my ship sound like that? Because that's how it came. They're not going to understand like, well, you know the tracking was bad and dad, so yeah, I never we learned not to use that as an excuse. We just made it good and we had to figure out how to make it sound good. I mean way before drum samples and we're doing you know, like disco records, and you get this kick that goes like what am I gonna do with that? You know? And and we learned how to make it sound like a great kick. So are you more? I'm not afraid worried about um the producer and artist at hand versus the an R and label president like so says a great example if now Rogers was extremely satisfied with the way thats the Diana record, Barry Gordy gets it and like this ship sucks, you know, and then hired his own guy to remix that entire album. So I know that because the majority of your stuff was on Sony and Arista and stuff that you know, is Clive talking to you like, you know, I like my mixes and Dad, Well, it's very clear what you were going to hand into Clive. It was gonna have to be all about the vocal. And so the challenge was to make sure that you've got a real good groove going with the rest of the rhythm without making it sound like it was a huge vocal up. And that's where I learned how to accuse certain things out of the records, so that for Aretha, I could make her sound really really loud, but you could still feel the track around her. So, uh, of your of your of your hits arsenal. What was a recalled nightmare? You know? Did you have to do Freeway Love like five times over? Like? How often would you have to recall a mixed until all parties were satisfied. There wasn't much that going on back then. You know, you might recall it, and back then it was almost like a memory. I mean they'd start writing stuff down a little bit, but I would just kind of put and recording. Like now you know, you can recall something instantly reproaches. There's no comparison. I mean, there's just no compare. So now you've got to do stems. If you're recording on I mean, if you're mixing on an analog desk. Um No. Back then, you know you'd recall the desk and and I mean I got my guys trained so that you could, you know, you could match the mix to the recall perfectly. I mean, it really had him taking good notes, but quite often I just throw the track back up and it I don't know I would do the same things I used to do, and then I'd look at it and it would sound just about the same on But it's interesting you brought up Freeway Love because that was the turning point for me that particular record with Narada, because something changed. Well I didn't record it, and that was a bit of a challenge, but he wanted a lot more bottom end than I had ever done before. And that was truly the most terrific day or two in my life because as I added more bottom end, the vocal started to calm down because the stereo compressor was just grabbing, grabbing, because the stereo compressor reacts to low end more than top end. And he'd say, hey, give me more vocal, you know, bring the vocal up, and I was like, oh my god, and then the bass would get squashed and just a whole mix start going. So I survived it. Let me put it that way. I still can't really listen to that song without thinking when I went through better But Steve, what we're telling my Freeway of Love by Aretha right now, and it's it's a funny song. I never understood the lyrics, but the pink but the my that you would use for her. It was fen I used. I used a four or fourteen a kg with with Luther and everyone everyone, and I had it angled in a certain way so it was the bottom of the microphone was just tipping at the nose, so it was kind of would look at their face, That's what I was getting. I was getting their face and their throat as opposed to just the mouth, so I get the nose and the whole face. And and if for wreath of example, if she would you know, kind of edge up into the microphone because it was licking down, I would just put a dummy mic in front, so she'd be singing into like a fifty seven. It's like keeper position problems held up like yeah, yeah, wow, look at that. So about four or fourteen that's got that had a really nice area. And then I was using my kneeve, you know, I was I was recording on a Nive desk exactly like the one that we have here. What kind of what kind of pre ampts or compressors are you running them through? It was the nivamp and the Nave compressor that was in the desk. Wow. So like no outside like tube tech notice not no not when I had the knives, it was perfect. So not another one of your clients that I'm really curious about. Um, I've always wondered about the the quote unquote compass point sessions of of Grace Jones's trilogy. Um, did you mix and I mixed it? So did you have to go to the Bahamas do order? No, that's after no, I mixed it the entire album. Yeah, I really love that record, man. I mean, you know, for hip hop heads, the my Jamaican guys like you know, it's it's a staple. So uh, in doing that record, which you know, of course with Slide Robbie as the as the as kind of the rhythm anchor of that album, and then being known for a lot of the stuff that they don't reggae music, Uh, what was it like for you to sort of incorporate because a lot of that record, you know, you have to use a lot of reggae effects like echoes and all those things. Like what was that process like mixing? You know, it just came to me a lot of that. It's just this is what it has to be, and you know it's back then, it just happened. Spontaney spontaneously. That's right. It was no just another day really yeah. Well, I mean, you know, just the legend of of of Compass Points Studios and well, I we're supposed to represent, you know now and it's legendary folklore. Yeah, I mean, but Sly and Robbie were incredible, just incredible. So mixing those records, Um, Chris actually produced those records or I don't feel when it came and also did it too. Yeah. I came in later, you know, for the mixing of it. So I don't know what process, but I think Chris was always involved in those records. Talking about Chris black Womack was that stone because Slid Dunbar and Robbie Shakespeare, thank you, thank you. But they're known as Sly and Robbie as infamous rhythm section. They're based in drum, drum and bass rhythm section. Yeah. In the folklore of Compass is Compass Points Studios is uh a facility and I believe Bahamas yeah and the Ahamas um and pretty much. Uh. Chris Blackwell wanted Grace Jones to get out of disco music. She was doing, you know, like Violet Rose Viva and I forget the she was doing like album and a weird disco ship and he wanted her. He was like, you would have a better fit, uh doing more pop reggae stuff because like the police was hitting and sort of using that together. So uh, what they call the Compass Point Uh trilogy is her three albums Nightclubbing, Uh, Live My Life, Nipple to the Bottle, Pull Up to the Bumper, all those songs that you know Grace Jones for we're recorded there. I love Spring learned something new every hour. Um, Okay, I know it's it's not classy for an engineer to tell, but there has to be a hard client, like one that just RUGI to the limit. Yes, there's hardly any records that I feel that you had bad results in, but yeah, everything could have been a sunny journey from em. No, there was one ah where I was just mixing his record. It's not good to tell you, but but I'm gonna tell you that he comes in and uh, he says, all right, he puts his feet up on my desk, right right on the console. Now I'm like, okay. You know, as we grow, as we grow wiser, you get to understand how different people you know, tick and by doing this. He was gonna show me he was in control. That's what. That's what, you know, all the body language was saying. He walks in and he's yeah, he wants to piss on there and just say this is territory, but in fact it's mine. So he says, all right. I said, all right, I'll let that go, and he uh, he listens to it. He looks at me, and he goes, yeah, you know, it's okay. But I got a problem with this. I got a problem with that. I'm like, okay, fine, let's get to work. And he just complain and complain and complain and just really was there was no point in it now. I was, I believe the third mixer on this, he'd already mixed this record with two other people, and they said, I think I know what you're talking about. And they said, Brower, you're the only guy that can be able to handle this, because at that point, reputation for you know, knowing how to deal with a lot of different egos and stuff. And so we kept going at it and going at it, and and he just started getting more and more upset and being more and more disrespectful, and finally I stood up and I went I was like, well, this session is over. And he looks at me and he goes, what do you mean? I still got more like no, no, this session is over because at this point he's kind of swearing at me and you know, okay, and I just stood up and I shook his hand. I went, see you okay. Can I just ask one question? I was one time I did this. Can I ask one question? Does this artist go by three names? Doesn't go by three names? He went by one name, quest Love. Oh, it was really a great story with Trent. I did Terence. Um, yeah, I mixed and I did some extra production on If You Let Me Stay. And when I was first being introduced to him on Lincoln Clapp was the I mean, not Lin. Lincoln was his last name. Oh, I can't remember. Um Lincoln was introducing me using A and R for for Terrence and um. So he introduces me to him at a club and he goes, you know, hey, Terence, this is Michael Browner. He's gonna be working on your record. He goes, ah, so this is the guy who's gonna sunk up my record. I looked and I went, no, I'm not going to funk up your record because I'm not doing it. He goes, I go, why should I start now? If you think I'm gonna sunk up your record? Why should I even bother? Right, Because I've been down this road. I'm not gonna waste my time, so see you. And he goes, oh, wait a minute, Wait a minute. You know, Lincoln's like, no, really, Michael, Michael, you know, I don't know, man, I'm not into this at all. He goes, oh, I'm just kidding. I'm like, really, really, are you kidding? You know? And he was just like, okay, all right, you know. I said, all right, well we'll think about it now. And that was, you know, and then eventually I did it. But I was like, man, if you're starting off on the wrong foot like that, it's not about it down this road, you know. And then you go, oh, I hope not. I hope I don't screw up your record. No, I'm going to do a good job, you know. And but the eighties, wasn't everyone arrogant, wasn't everyone in now whole, And wasn't everyone at Diva and wasn't no damn I didn't work started getting polite now like I got back then. You had to deal with cocaine on your soundboard, and well, yeah, there was a lot of but they were usually too burned out to you know, to be an asshole. So you ended up doing the Heartline album, the introduced Tanistrant Darby's but just one that ifould let me stay. That was a voice I wanted to ask you about since we're talking about the eighties, not to bring it up with the coco stuff, but Angela Beaufield, who is a voice that's not spoken about a lot. Do you I'm guessing you were to record engine? What was the little Did you track the entire two tough record? No? Just the song? Yeah, okay? Mixed? Or or track just mixed? Oh damn? Okay, because I wanted to ask That's what I was asking. Saw the unsung but the music was remarkable. Yeah, so can I ask a question? So? Um, So, back back in the times that we're talking about, which I guess is the eighties right now, Um, a lot of the artists and presumably other people associated like maybe label people would show up to the mix sets and have input always and um, and can you talk about how that's changed nowadays for somebody like yourself? Well, now I have to plead I don't even bother anymore to have the artists show up at the mix. They never show up. It's now down to maybe it kind of went the way of analog tape good speakers, because now we're judging from our computers and our iPhones. You know, it's just a different time. I mean, it's just the way it is. Who was the last artist that was interested in their mixed process? I cannot see them not do it. Bon Jovi, he was there every day. I mean, to me, I'm always amazed when they don't want to show up. It's their album, but they they're scheduled to a point point where they've got there on tour or their rehearsal, or they've there, you know, they or they're not giving the budget to fly over. So what you're saying Coldplay and John Mayor and none of those guys, Oh yeah, sure they were, But I'm just saying that that the majority. Yeah, all the Coldplay records, you know, the guy's individual would come in at first and then but it was always down to Chris and myself on those records. Plus plus a lot of these artists trust him where they don't need to be there the entire time, and he can. He sends them mixes and they prove them and so forth. Okay, they're not total decades, they're just you're the man and too, I think we know they just put their trust into the visionary there. You have to learn that. I mean, have you've been by the time a song comes out to the audience as an artist, You've heard that song a million times. So once it's done and you send it to the mixing engineers, just like, look, take it away. And at this point, as an artist, do you really want to go back to your revisions? Because you are who you are. That's got nothing to do who I am is that I'm going to be a good listener. They have, Yeah, but but it's my opinion. You know, I'm interpreting it. It's and if it's nailing it exactly the way they want and we're good. If it isn't, then we do revisions until it's right. Okay, So I'm gonna try to not rapid fire question, but just in general, because again, you're discography is way too extensive to go through everything. So what three songs of yours that you've tracked and mixed mhm, just gives you absolute positive like goose bumps, like and I mean filler hits whatever like um, just like I captured magic and a bottle and well these three represent me. I would say house is not a home with Luther wait Sade, question was that was it? Was it trek to a click track? Because I always wanted to know how he nailed the stealing love of stealing loves without doing it live with his band. No, there was no, and it was done before the strings came in. He do you hear when he's holding that note and it's like a little dip. That's his heart rate, that's his heart going. You hear that little drop. Yeah, that was just him holding it. That was that was a the take and he's just holding it and then everybody's watching him, you know, that's watching and then downbeat and then when when I think it was Leon that did the strings, Um, they were just you know, they practiced it a few times and then and so after they tracked the music, he didn't come back like a week later and said, I think I can now that vocal take just a little bit better. None of those songs, none of those vocals were Redone those were all from the rhythm tracks, you know, from the Basics, because he would also he would also he would do he would do a tour of UM radio stations and have a TV track of that stuff and actually sing live in this studio of her like maybe four different versions of a house is not a home, various places across the unit, and he nails all those gaps and pauses like perfectly. And I'm thinking, like you see, like, okay, thirteen seconds here. No, it's just feel feeling what What we used to do a lot too, is I was really into throwing a delay on his voice, you know when he goes WHOA Well. I would do that when we were recording, and so he and I would just be playing back and forth and he would never know when I throw, you know, a delay on it. But eventually as he's recording, you know, I'd throw a delay in and and he would answer the delay. So I was always printing the delay, but he would just he and I would go back and forth. It was just this thing between him and I, you know, so okay, something okay, it would do that. Yeah, yeah, that was all during the recording of the Basics. I was doing that. That's why there was that natural answer back and forth. I mean, you know, and I was. I was very much part of starting that and then that became part of the trademark. You know, when he was doing live then the mixing engineer was doing all that stuff. But that was just fun between he and I. I just tried to surprise him. What are the other two? Well, recording, so you have a recording and a mixing. Yeah, I mean mixing is I would say with mixing it would be yellow. For cold playing, that was just there was that really empty, lonely feel that turned out to really I was able to get that just from the snare drum. The snare drum just created this um and just feel. It was. So did you mix and record parachutes? No? No, I just mixed. But to record, it's the recording and the mixing back then really the only one it would be that it would be jumped to it a man jump jump jump, and that was yogi drums um probably using either you know, one of two snares, but um. Really it was always either the well. Artie Smith was his drum tech, the great Artie and you know he would tune the drums and he had you know Yogi's drum set, but quite often, depending on the song, I had my two snares next to him next to Yogi that he really liked, and depending on the song, we switched it out between my eight hundred and the What was that snare? That the percussion that weird? It's on YouTube vs us in a Yamaha, but uh, his signature snaring snare that he used on It's no, I don't know what it is. I assumed it was a Yamha, but it's not. No, it's some percussion company. Why can I ask why so deep with the snare tones? Why it sounded good? You know, they were just nice to have it real fat and then tracked the song with like a tight snare and you guys are like, it doesn't work. I don't think it ever occurred to him. I mean, he never brought it up. It was it would be between you know, Yogi would be the one that says, you know, tighten it up or loosen it up, or I want this other snare. You know Yogi really directed all of that. But you know, you get that low sound and then you take the poll tech which is a e Q, and then you push eight thousand all the way up and then you get that great, great edge, natural edge on the snare, so you'd still have that crispy sound, but it was big and fat. What song do you wish you could recall and just do again that you're still not satisfied with? I don't never never felt that way, really, Yea, there wasn't. I was done. I was done. Most most first singles are like the last song done, like I need one more song than time pressure or whatever. Like it's not to say that they couldn't have been better, but I just never I just never thought that way. I was like, we're done, let it go, move on. He doesn't want to say, because somebody's gonna ask for their money back. Well, I just I felt really good when I was done, and I walk away and say okay next and if it if it needed to be recalled and it was better, I was like, wow, I didn't think of that. Who else do you do you like that? Mix engineers? Do you admire? I've got a lot of fans. I love Manny It's a good buddy of mine. Yeah, America and and Tony Maserati, Uh, Spike m. You know when Bob Power's He used to be at at Sony and he was in one room and I was in the other, and I'd listen to his mixes like, oh my god, that sounds so good. He would make me feel really like, do I really want to go back and mix the song I'm doing? You know? He was just had such a great, great feel UM. Yeah. I mean, there's those are the ones that clearly come to mind that I just I just loved and I got to know many through UH mixing John Mayer because we split up the album and it was on the Continuum record and I'm listening to this other guy's mixes and I'm like, wow, man, this feels it's it sounds different, but it feels the way I feel a song. I think I get to know this guy. Who is he? I mean, I don't pay a lot of attention to who's out there and I'm just doing my work. But on it was really stood out because it was one of the first times where I'm sharing songs mixes with another person and they fit so well together. It's great. So how do you feel now the way that UM technology has has completely changed from what it was thirty four years thirty or fourty years ago when you first started. So now people pretty much can do everything on their laptop. You know, I'm fine with it as long as they call me to mix it. They're mixing on their laptop. Two. Yeah, well they can do everything on their laptop, and then when it comes down to the mix, it's like it could be better. How do you think feel about modern engineering now as far as like mixes are concerned, Like, are you like everything was better with analog? Like, you know, still comes down to the pilot. You know, you're gonna have great engineers and you're gonna have really terrible engineers. And that's never changed. Even in analog days. You've got really really crappy tracks that you'd have to work extra hard, and then you get other guys who are just incredible and you just put the tracks up and he's like, mix is done. It's just fantastic, you know. And and as far as analog desks, I mean, I'm moving away from an analog desk pretty soon. How do you feel about that? Oh, I can't. I've been mixing a lot of music on the hybrid. I'm still surrounded by analog. Everything is analog, right, Yeah, all my outboard gears analog. So the only thing I'm kind of switching out it is the fader and the sound of that particular desk. But you've got great plug ins where you can get the same sound. You know, if you're doing an SSL, you can get the SSL sign. If you've got a need get the NAVE sound. You just put that across the channels and you, at least in my experience, you can't tell the difference between what I've done on a on the SSL nine thousand and in my in my hybrid because it's sharing all the analog gear. Okay, so I'm and you know, and it's easy. Now it's a lot easier because you know, when you're on an analog desk, you've got three and a half hours of stems of you know, paths, excuse me, passage you've got to do. In a hybrid situation, you hit a button, got a script, it does it all automatically. So it's also way more efficient. What was the transition like when um like moving I guess I guess it's maybe like late nineties when the game started transition in front analog to pro tools and two computers. What was it like then? How did you make that switch. It was it difficult, It was well. I still treated when it went from analog to digital. The first thing I noticed is that there was a lack of tightness in the music now and I didn't know why. I just thought, well, twenty four track analog just must sound, you know, just sounds way better and and digital doesn't. It turned out to be that it's the clock, the clock that that ties all these tracks together. I didn't know this at all because I'm not at all technical, but it you know, it was years later when I realized how important this clock is to getting a sound. And again it's down to the engineer too. If the engineers recording great to digital. But digital had just a lot of artifacts that just didn't sound musical at all, you know. They felt like there was a ceiling to everything that I was doing. Um and of course that's no longer the case, but yeah, it was sonically it was rough, and I still you I didn't know anything about pro tools. I would just use it as if it was a playback, you know, I didn't do anything. I had an assistant who well, I think it's still like that to this day. But shout out to Steve bhely, that's right, thank god. Um. But you know, and then in the beginning you had plug ins. But the plug ins they looked like my hardware, but they didn't sound at all. So I had no reason to use him because I had that gear. But eventually, you know, Waves and U a D and soft Tube and you know, all these great companies started, you know, getting so good at emulating some of this gear that that you know, one day I put a pull tech across something. I was like, Wow, this sounds it's just just like mine. And at that point use it. You know, for me, I'm not I just want what sounds good. So are you what's your opinion on soft too versus ways? You know? Anyway? So uh so, um so the last ten years approximately, you've you've been an electrical lady U in the STUDI eight years, eight years scoring on nine I think, okay, in the in Studio B, which is the legendary purple room with the purple slat sounding. It was one of the first first ssls in New York City and it's uh, it got totally refurbished and it just has a great punch to it, great sound and uh and and now you're moving on to your building, your own place. Now. I'm having place built for me, yes, which I'll be moving to next year. Excited. I'm happy. Going to miss it electrically, Oh of course I'm gonna miss electrically. I'm gonna miss everybody there. I'm gonna miss Lee. You know, I'm gonna miss the vibe. But you know it's I'm excited by this isn't you know? It's another another phase? Wait? Answer me this? Um have rats ever running in studio B? Because just mice? Not my last day, No, no, And I still say that was a rat, not not a mount. I've never seen mice, and I've never seen ghosts. But my sister he's been totally freaked out by by a ghost. There's a there's a ghost that his name is Jimmy. It's not Jimmy. It's some some guy. I don't everybody describes him the same way, some guy with a beard an electric electrically, because when we were there, Jimmy the cat was Jimmy. Why was that ghost? Jimmy the cat is no longer and he did not have a beard. Actually, just very very overall. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I've never seen him so, but you know, I'll look at Steve or other assistance before him, who just had this look on their face. They're not They're not kidding. You know. Somebody just walked by and they thought it was me, and I had already gone, oh, I believe it's it. But the only the only thing that I've experiences is um on one piece of gear. I've got two really big knobs, is on a shadow hill and you'd have to literally, yeah, you have to literally fall into it sideways to turn the knob. And I had just left the room and I came back in and I played the mix and it's completely whacked. It's like all left heavy. I what just happened? And I turned around and one knob is just like you know, I've been moved almost all the way to the top. And I looked at my assister and I go, how did you bump into this? He goes, I haven't even been near it. I was like, I believe you, ten. I was like, okay, all right, well, let me turn this knob back down. The cat do that? Jumped on the jump on the console and I can't turn on all The cat jumped on the console and actually clicked the button and it sounded twice as good as my mix. He jumped on the console and actually walked on the board and clicked something and then walked away, and we all looked at each other, like, holy sh it, that I believe that Jimmi Hendrix is still trapped in that studio somehow? Did you? I want to ask, did you do the you record and mix Viva LaVita? The co player just just mixed, just mix it most of the record too. It wasn't I didn't do the whole record. Okay, did you just Strawberry Swing? Yeah? I love that song, but that was awesome, great job on that. I thought you're about to ask Joe Santorini questions. Oh oh about the lawsuit. I was in the Grammy audience the day that they won a word for that, and him and his lawyers were trying to chase them with the subpoena. So I was like watching remember like those old Keystone literally like the Cold playing their whole cat, their whole management team like running down the island and Joe and his lawyers are running the other way, and they're like chasing each other, trying to serve papers all you mean with with yeah. You know, look, I've known these guys from the beginning. They were physically running that. That was just a coincidence. I don't care what anybody say. I mean, you know, if you look at the the prior record, it was it Soundcraft, um where they copied you know, they love this one little hook and they immediately called them and said, hey, you know, we're gonna use We're gonna use your you know that line and and here's your credit. And I mean, this is it's just you know, unfortunately it happens. There's millions and millions of songs coming out. It's gonna happen, and you know, it's kind of like it. But regardless, it was not a conscious effort because that's that's not who they are. If if they're going to copy something, they're gonna give that person credit and they're gonna be very very humble about it and and write about it. So it's my opinion on it. Well, we know them for coming on the show today and school and that's about about sound and Craft. Thank you Michael for coming on, because thank you for the pleasure. Any other last minute you guys, like, okay on the Parachutes album, did you mix. You're a big yoh man man politics that that whole first album like that was just okay, did you mix the song parachutes? The one was just him mix the whole record. But but one song, it was Shiver? No, I mixed that. I think actually the first two songs I mixed for them was Shiver and Shiver in which one Yello yellow Man? Yeah, yeah, I love that record you did. Did you do clocks as well? No? You didn't mix slots? Okay? Yeah, that's the ship I wish I had. Okay, but but I did the X and Y record and then a good part of the DA. You got to say to the listening audience, if you want to get a real quick headache, go down Michael's list of credits because it's too much. Fishbone questions, Fishbone, Alright, what a great record that was, David? Yeah, okay, line real quick? Uh the line between engineer and producer? Where does that begin and end? And have you ever kind of gone more into the producer? Yeah? I did production for a couple of years. Got that out of my system real quick. We won't talk about that. Who did you produce? Nobody? You know? I was I went to England and I did. I did some production. I did this one band, uh Animal Nightlife, and then Icicle Works and Roachford, Yeah yeah, I'd produce that his first album, the second Holme first record first Okay, Roachford and we can google, you know. But you know what I realized quickly as a producer, and I was pretty sure of it, and then I confirmed it is I'm not a songwriter. I don't have a melody in my head that came from my own head, right, And to be a great producer, I think he really needs to be a songwriter. And so I knew i'd I'd always be limited or restricted to bands who are completely self sufficient, which isn't really realistic. So um, after a couple of years, I like, the best I'm gonna do is be average on this and and then I really just loved mixing. It's like I don't want to do anything else but that. Did you make the Magic but co Play? Did you make that record? You do that off the off good Stories? Uh No, you didn't, exa did you do anything on that on that record? Okay you didn't do that? Okay, okay, unpaid Big Atlantic up here because he has a gazing please okay, anything else that, Um, you worked on the Gwen Guthrie Petlock record. Yes, that was. That's when I worked with Sline Robbie and I did it a compass point. Did you have anything that I did not know that? Did you work with Larry Levan on the mixes at all? Or no? I mixed that. I think it was with Sline robb They came back. Yeah, Seventh Heaven. Oh my god, I don't even know how I kind of that that that one since stabs at the top of that's all. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. I mixed that in studio way media sound Jesus. But I recorded that and it was, you know, it was a trip being there because you know, you'd be on the beach and then around twelve o'clock, one o'clock everybody show up studio and start recording. And I was gonna say it's it's I don't think like to be in that comfort zone. I think that's bad luck. It distracts everybody. It might be relaxing, but it might be too relaxing. Well, I'd rather be uncomfortable and cold in the studio and focused than like, Yeah, but the whole vibe was laid back. There was a whole lot of smoke going on. It was size of cigars and I'm not not smoking, so you know, I get wait since it's since its rapid fire, last minute questions the b b Q ban on the beat, they just say like, look, we want to sound like chic or like what's was there any connection? Well, like the same guy from Change was behind Hold on a second, Hold on a second. How that record was done is we went to Italy and we recorded sixteen songs. We recorded sixteen songs, the rhythm tracks on all of them. Right then we came back to New York and he split it into and called one Change and the other one called b b Q and then put lead vocals. You know, at that point Luther didn't sing on that he was they Fred Petri said, had done something dumb. Probably didn't, so, but the basics are identical because recorded them all in one period. He best love this song. He never recorded, well, he would have except that that Peter didn't want to give him a royalty, so he said, well, I'm not going to sing on this record. So then we spent three weeks trying to find a singer that sounded like Luther it was just so you got everybody coming in there trying to sing like Luther. I was like, oh my god. But we ended up with Crabs Robinson who ended up doing that. But and then on B b Q it was you know, different singers and and different backing vocals, and then maybe some of the overdubs since silver dubs were done you know, by different people. But I just mixed, you know, I came back to New York and I mixed all sixteen. Did you do BBQ? Did you imagination? Uh? Startle it like all those records. Imagination you mean hole of notes? No? No, no, BBQ. I did one b b Q. I was just the first one. Okay, okay, we really got to wrap up guys. Yeah, becauld you get Private Eyes? Right? Did you mix that? No? You didn't mixed that. I mixed some of the singles. I mixed one on one you can do. Those were remixes and R and B radio. Oh so the album version is different than the thing. Yeah, okay, I understand the twelve inch fatter drum version of I can't go for that. But I love just the tempty toy sound of the album version. Yeah, I love it, but I get it now, so you you were there to boost up the mix. Okay, I see anything else Lady and Jim, Okay the co play. You're fired. You said that like stay on the graffiti we didn't like I've worked Okay, you did everything, Bill Baby, Bill and Find take a Little and Yea and Sugar Steve. This quest Love Signed enough, Michael's thank you very much for coming and see all the nets go around Quest Supreme. What's Love Supreme is a production of my Heart Radio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 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