Questlove SupremeIn Part 2, Funky George Brown of Kool & The Gang explains the group's transition and super success at the turn of the 1980s. He discusses the songwriting process, personnel changes, and the challenges of touring with Van Halen.
We are back with part two of our conversation with Funky George Brown of Cool in the Gang. I love this conversation for several reasons. Get down on It is my absolute favorite song of all time and Celebration was played by a bar Metz Focus. If you haven't yet, please listen to part one with George, where he speaks about growing up in Jersey City and how that toughened him, the band's early success, and his skills as a drummer. George just penned a memoir, Cool and the Gang and Me, which is available right now. George Cool and the rest of the band also just released a new album, People Just Want to Have Fun.
Make sure you check that out.
But first Part two of QLs with Funky George Brown.
I'm assuming during this period that you guys don't have day jobs as well, Like we did an episode with Milly Jackson only to find out as he was basically Millie Jackson on the weekends and then Monday she go back to her day job.
Where she was working in Manhattan.
Well, yeah, she was working in the garment district of Manhattan while she was you know, doing live and bitching, like at the peak of it is one able to make a comfortable living, especially in an eight man group, which I assume is different than the setup with Earth Wind and Fire and which you know, which is basically the Marie White group. And he's paying them as yeah, you know, work for hire, you know, our contracted work for higher but like in okay, so say it's seventy six, like right before you guys do after Jungle Boogem, right before open Sesame comes into play.
We were very lucky there were no Jay jobs in the initial period. You say nineteen sixty nine, then I think at that point Kladas Smith had a job delivering. But after we signed a contract with Delight, we worked. We've always worked. We've always had a gig.
You never had a regular job on George the regular.
Jobs or when we were doing and still doing the nightclubs. But still no one was hitting the punching the time clock like that. It wasn't like that. It just changed because the first record cooling the game by cooling the Gang, number thirty eight with a bullet on top one hundred, that's the record changed the whole atmosphere. Most black artists got to go over the black charts or this chart, that record went pop with a bullet, So.
You guys had a fair deal.
Then, yeah, got a fair deal. Then h and we got a blessing because not many black acts just popped up number thirty with a bullet or the top of hundred. So we were working. So there was work. It might have been slow here and there, but we we did work.
So if I want to ask you about publishing, because I'm curious where you got your publishing education, because we talk about hip hop. But if your publishing wasn't right from the start, it wouldn't even matter because you wouldn't have been receiving, you know, the propers of it.
The b A maas gaps, she said, and all of us from Warner Chapel and Bmgene or that well early on, like with Jean Read again, this guy he told us all about that, you know, and so therefore we were receiving. I mean I signed with being Mine when I was nineteen, right, and that's because of Gene Read. All of all of us had, you know, and earning from first delight. But then when PolyGram brought the light, then the royalties for writing and publishing came from PolyGram and won a Chapel and BMI. Sorry, and the artist royalties also came out of PolyGram.
So we knew one of the most pivotal crucial moves that you guys did was adding JT.
Taylor.
But there's actually a second factor that not many people talk about. You guys went with a very unorthodox direction associating with the legendary Brazilian producer Emir Diadata.
Right before we started, he called me twice right before we started. It really, look, it's a deal, because you know when you talk to do you we got to bring a lunch?
Okay, yeah, I want to know what was the meeting or the decision process. One to bring in a lead singer, and two to work with not only an outside producer, but a Brazilian producer, which I mean I would imagine in nineteen seventy nine, one would figure that, you know, I got to go to the top of the pile, like either get with Gamble and Huff or you know Norman of Noran Harris. I knew he was a normal Yeah, yeah, So what made you guys go with a mere Dia Dado of all things, not really known for a pop sence or I mean, you know he dabbled in disco, but not enough for me to be like, Okay, this is our do or die moment.
Let's get with him.
Well, the deal at seventeen years old is like the number one on arranger and producer in all of Brazil. Uh. And he had written strings for Collins Joe Bean. You know most of our heads were in that. You know that thing he wrote for Colin Joe Bean. Wooh, so our heads were still in that jazz Irene Conrad over the House of Music. She introduced, I think I got this story right. There might be some loose ends, Calice to James J. T. Taylor. I think Ron Sweeney had said it it's time to bring in a lead singer. You guys can do it. We looked at Stevie because we did a lot of work with Steven Well. Stevie helped us out so many times when the bus would break down, really called Stevie and he'd help us. Really Yeah, So Steve would help us out numerous times, and we wanted him to come in and produce. He said, sorry for I got to get my own album happening at that time. So we had a manager at Val Hackett. Val shopped and I called it shopping, but he got your mere Diadelo, which was a great blessing. It missed just like dovetail, like man, the beauty is just connected. He was the right guy for cooling the gang because all the music the guys knew, you know, you know, we were all musician musicians, guys who knew all the chord changes and you know what have you all all the scales and sit down and actually write it out with him. It was easy if we if we wush up it, he would write that down. And weeks later when the horns would come in, he said, but which a simple lot, right? And uh, but guys would write those parts down as well. You know, e Clifford Adams, who played trombone with a trump moont case full of music. Deal was the right choice. Uh, and not only the right choice for the music, but the right choice and really organizing the band and how we did things. He brought it to a whole other level, making sure that everything was notated, everything was written down.
As a drummer, I always wanted to know how hard was it to sort of adjust your sound for the times, because even I noticed me as a drummer, I've pretty much stayed kind of consistent for my thirty years of drumming in the roots and on record, like I'm not I mean, I if I change my sounds for experimental purposes, but not like, hey, let me, let me adjust to the sound and the climate of where it is today. But like the groove that you're planning on, let the music take your mind, is not the same tone or the same sound as Jones versus Jones or a celebration or whatnot.
So at the.
Time, how aware you as the heartbeat of the band that like the most radical sound change of the band has to be with the drums.
It might sound stories because you hear all this. For me, it didn't bother me. It was like, let's go with the flow. This is what it is. This is going to help us move forward. Oh, this is what's going to bring a wide wide range of audience. So I was totally totally amenable to it and and actually didn't think about it too much. But quest you're right because later on, because I played piano as well, and I got to a point where okay, enough of this and I just switched over the keyboards.
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you about too. That's like a major move that I don't hear.
From drumps to keyboards. Yes, oh well I always played piano. Okay, okay, yeah, it goes back to we talk about church. It goes back I've always.
Played, but in your group, you always played drums until you decide I'm going.
And in writing, we had our writing session.
I you know, how does the songwriting process start? Do you guys just say, hey, you got an idea? Guys, what do y'all think about this? Or do you bring it?
Like?
Do you bring it to DT? Do you bring it to Ronald first?
Like?
How does the songwriting process start?
It was us. We just bring it to us, you know, guys say whether they like it or not, and if they like it, then we got down on it.
That's the truth.
You know. With Theodado a little more different because every morning he would pick me up. I lived in Manhattan than in Gramercy Park, and he said, oh, senor let me see your homework. So you popping the cassette, you get your illegal pad and start singing, and he'll he'll either bust your ego then by saying that's not happening, and or it'd actually if he feels like he said, that's very cute, but it's not written. Oh he'll say, signor you've done it again. Love the lines, and so we would apply. You know, people have different lines to put it in the song and they would work you perfectly, you know.
So we we shared the story of how Celebration got written, at least Ronald's version of how Celebration got written? But are there any other universe like unusual stories of that? For listeners who didn't hear that particular episode, Ronald Bell said that he was backstage at a Rick James and Prince show and Prince had just did I Want to Be Your Lover? And in between the set changeover for Prince to Rick James, Ronald runs backstage and finds a piano and figures out the courts that I want to be a lover, and he writes it and notates it down and then he plays it backwards, and that rhythm of winds up being da da And But I mean for the songwriting process, especially in the period in which you guys are having unstoppable you know, pop classics one after the other. Are there any other unusual stories of how songs got written?
No? Not really. You know, sometimes guys would pass on a song. I would take it and write a first verse of lyric and give it the JT. He said, this is happening. And the next thing you know, we have a complete song because you got two members working on it. We've got the chord structure figured out, and h writing the melody and lyric, and bingo say you got something. And it's the funny thing about it. They weren't the number five pop, you know, but the band itself didn't like it. That was Take my Heart. You know, it's very, very poppy all that.
But you didn't like that song.
I helped write it.
I said, that was my aunt's song. Man, that was the one I took.
I took it because the band didn't like it. Clayton Smith wrote it the guitar player right, But the band didn't like that twelve eight. So I said, no, give it to me. Took it home. Write no time for wishing, baby. We've gone all through those moves. I'm all and satisfied. So the next day, of course, get to the studio. Jay, were you like j T? What do you think? He said, Man, I like this.
I've been going through a Luther phase in the last month and a half reading his book and listening to his music, and I realized that the world is going through a drought of a good shuffle song. Oh my God, like and take My Heart is like kind of I remember shuffle, Yeah, exactly. Do you talk about the phenomenon that is celebration, Like, what were the band's general reaction to, Like celebration winds up being way past an anthem, it's it's it's pretty much music DNA like, it's it's with celebration.
We're on the two of us and leaving l A. The night before we won two American Music Awards, So the song was germanying then, but that's what you got from Earl Smith, you know. So so let's let's put that in there because that's very celebrated, celebratory, you know, So just just to put that in the soul and gives it that boost, you know. But in regards to it becoming.
Only to the point where it's like stadiums and weddings and.
Anderson miss miss back ship, backyard, Bobby Cue, it's it's it's an amazing, it's a blessing and it is, uh, one of those songs that I'm gonna say you can't deny and you must play it every evening.
Did it ever become burdensome? Because I know a lot of acts when they get a mammoth hit of that caliber, then it's like selling becomes a it becomes a burden.
No, you know what happens. And you know when you're playing sometimes you're playing the piece and you played it a thousand times, but it becomes organic, like and guys are playing the right chords. But it just got this just tonight. I mean, well, you're playing quest or the piano he's playing it has another little liltal, another little thing to it. You're playing it, but it has another feel that night, not you know, it's not the record feel. The people feel it. So that's what happens. It turns into this piece of music that each that you play it, it has a different feeling. And when you're singing it as well, it's coming out different. But it's to say that there's a party going on right here, but it's coming out different for some reason, and you feel different about it. And when you get off, everybody great nice show, man, great show. Nobody feels that man is burning a hole in all shoes.
Right, Well, no one's complaining.
Can I ask about another anthem? Real quick?
I just I'm curious to how so many fellas come up with another anthem, but this one about the ladies.
I although we asked around that question.
But I was like, how did you know to embody what a lady's night was?
How does well, I'll tell you. I get to who likes to go out and have fun?
Okay?
So he said, you know the new thing in clubs now on a Friday, Saturday whatever, it's the lady's night, you know. And me walking from fifty seventh Street back down to Gramarcy, I'm watching how people the gape of people's walk, just how people walk. And I said, yeah, I said, man, people are walking like a jazz working Baseline had that game. So I went home side at the piano and started harmonizing it and the different key changes as you know, showed it the diadalo. Hey, this is what we need. So we got together the right road on it. We had we had the track already, you know, you know, the horns are we're playing with the girls were singing, and JT and myself and Calice got on the lyrics and done done?
What was it about JT that appealed to the band as far as his voice? I once heard somebody describe that if Nat King Cole had them born thirty years later, like basically, it would have been the voice of JT.
Taylor.
Like that's how smooth JT's voice was. Basically he was like nacking cold like But for you, like, what was the appeal to that sort of voice? And were there other acts that or other singers that you guys auditioned before you decided on James j T.
Taylor.
I don't want to mention people's names like that, but there was a cut that are well known, but JT did have it, still does that golden tone in his voice great lyricists by the way too. And what we did in the studio is go in and roll a little bit of that on to his voice. Who enhanced his voice even Also you know in your studio say what sounds a little weak? They're all little mid rangey, let's work on that. So we did some work on his voice as well, you know, like everybody does. But he started off with it, you had it, okay. We felt that his voice was pop, pure pop and it worked at that time. You know, I had a certain innocence in it, non intimidating all of that, and uh, just just a pop artist. I mean, you know, we could have went for the Teddy Pendergrad, the Luther and Andros. We could have went for it to be part of it, but we felt that it wouldn't it wouldn't work.
And the other singers that you were considering for that spot was it? Was there anyone notable that we would have known that almost had a chance to be in the group.
Yeah, and you can't name who they are?
No, No, I don't want any letters coming to my mailbox.
I mean we can pontificate though. If we pontificate, can you.
Just not like, you know, how are you not just joking the one out?
Damn?
Just like when you mentioned the big garritos and you know you leave that alone.
Yeah, okay, I got you.
How easy was it for him to adjust to being in the group.
It was the same age as you guys. Was he younger a few years younger?
Just a few so we're all in the same genre basically age wise? Uh, not too far, I think he. I think I'm four years older than James okay, you know, but no, we were the guys who would go to respeech in Brooklyn and throw the frisbee around, have the girlfriends, that that type of stuff. We were We were the guy we hang out, you know, like where the song comes from that. Uh so we were always together in some capacity, even going to the movies.
How are you guys able to maintain any level of not like a domestic lifestyle, but like, how are you able to balance that, especially like during that time period and which you guys are working class musicians.
That was very hard during that time period because when we go out, we go out for two months at a time. You know, we were out with Van Hale in US four months. But the thing is that there's a big tour break. You know, same thing with kids, all you have a tour break. But with us, we go out for two months and you're out there. You're not coming back.
Wow.
Okay, Especially in the first half of the eighties and which you know, those unstoppable hits.
Are coming in.
How are you balancing out the shows in terms of which audience to please? Like in your eighties show does does open Sesame?
Still have a Home?
Is Jungle boogieing and funky stuff still getting the same response is JT singing funky stuff and that in jungle boogie. Also like with the band, Like.
With jungle boogie. Uh, it was almost like we would all take a spot going, oh okay, alls, we kept that going. You know, somebody you know, get down with the boogie that type of stuff. The same thing with funky stuff, you know. So that was singalong so the whole band. So everybody saying, you know, with funky stuff jungle boogie, just just drop in. You know, it's very easy that way as well. You know, it didn't make it like hard for anyone, you know, you just sang it.
I know that there was a JT's exit in eighty eight. He was just going without really like without any warning whatsoever.
I still don't understand that all these years.
So what happened in nineteen eighty eight, because you guys had this unbelievable streak and then that's it.
So what was the story of his exit?
And how I believe me quest I was speaking about that last week, okay with I think it was my engineer, Wolfgang, no rhyme, no reason. It was just that he got a bunch of money from I think it was A and M or MCA. And he went on to do his went on to do his thing. And because when he first came out, I mean he and I we were roommates, you know those hotels at the beginning, and not only roommates would go out and hang out in the clubs together, come back and all the good stuff. So to this very day, I don't know, I really really don't know that searched. There was a I'm where I was saying, Uh, so let's call Ron Sweeney. Ron, we'll call JT's manager and talk over things, and let's let's get JT back out on the road.
You know.
Uh, it would never move forward for some odd reason.
When do you remember the last time you had the conversation.
Or the last time we worked at Jay.
Well, he came back in the mid nineties.
I believe he came back in the mid nineties, and then he left again. Okay, whatever that was about. But when we got the Songwriters Hall of Fame, he came out. We straightened out the course as the band had the rown changes. Uh right, what he did he said it was this and uh, but he came out and sang and it sounded like we never separated.
How did you guys come across or how did you guys wind up enlisting the services of Skip Martin of the Dazz Band. Yeah, the Dass Band to be JT's replacement in eighty eight.
Well a del band, piece of busses be upon him. Yeah he passed away.
Uh.
Well, Adele, our manager, was in a tragic car accident. But he brings Skip over to my home. You know. Uh, Skip is a good singer. Uh, so it worked. What also worked was that he's a monsters h trumpet player, you know, yeah.
He is, well Skip, Yeah, I didn't know.
Skip is a monster. Okay, you can put up with Terrence Blanchard and you know he's sad. He's that guy uh mouths, you know. And we pushed that mute on his great shoe. He added greatly to the horn front vocally. I know that different members of the band, Uh didn't. I know Clee didn't like his vocals, that's for sure. Uh And yeah, you know because it's too vagacy right right, But we made it work. By the time we got Sean, who was close to JT vocally, Skip was just singing background and playing trumpet, but the horn section was extremely tight. You know when Clice come up. Police loves Skips on his trumper plan as well. Loved it and I do as well. You know, every time we have a session, even alf I work for something we call Skip, you know, Robbie Beth Skip those guys. So Skip's tenure was rather rather short. Then we brought an Odean Mays, oh, who is a bass baritone, great pianist. Uh, so we had both skipping uh, Odean Mays doing the leads. The audiences loved it because she had the guy with that like like Blue Lovett, with that that voice, right yeah uh. And then they got the uh that that that tenor that Irish tenant that Skip pass you know. Uh. And then uh, I don't know who it was, but Sean mcquiller when he came in. Sean has been with the band God now I know, thirty forty years maybe a little more. And his voice is very close to JT, but he has more of a rasp on it. So yeah, good good singer and also a great guitar. Fabulous guitarist. You know these days he can't pick up the guitar like he he wants to. But as playing. He's great.
You know.
We have Rick Morsel out there as well, also guitarist Basis. Rick has played with Prince and Stephanie Mills. Everybody's fabulous, you know, and a mirror A mirror plays every instrument as well. It's crazy. Reas he good.
You mentioned something earlier and it did hit me that, I think in twenty fourteen. In twenty fifteen, my my guitar player, Kurt came up to me. He's like, man, you'll never guess where I was last night. And I was like, what he's like. I was at a Van Hillon show and cool in the Gang open. You guys were touring with what was that show?
Like?
Poling the Gang and Van Halen loud?
We played loud, they were. I mean it was so loud that especially during sound check, I'd go outside. You couldn't take it. You know, they loud. But that Van Halen great band, Uh tight, great band, good guys. But the guys you know.
And here's David is a major Soul fan that much, I do know.
And the you know the forum here, yeah, well it was kept on the QT but uh those are that's where all the rehearsals were for the tour at the forum, you know, so we said we were in ourselves like, wow, what what what? Probably you rent off the forum for rehearsal, you.
Know that's a flex.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Don't forget to get George's book too hot?
And yes, can you talk about your memoir? Like how long did it take you to write that?
Because I'm slow. It took about ten years. And there's a lot of stuff that was taken out for political reasons, for whatever. Uh, some of the stuff would be quite shocky. So he took I took to Dave Smith and when I was in d C. So we just plucked stuff out that, you know, some of the stuff that we alladed to about those guys. Yeah, and once again, I never mentioned people's names. The story was started and things. But if I mentioned their names and what I was involved with, and it was just I was involved with one of their daughters.
Oh this is a movie.
It's just a movie.
Yeah.
Yeah. It was like he was, you know, he was up here at the total pulling up down here. I told him, Oh yeah, so that was great. Yeah that was quite dangerous because she even said this is a little dangerous. They were a lot of dangerous they were on the other side if my dad knew.
Yeah, could you tell me what your three favorite cool and gang songs are? But can you also just tell me what was your favorite song to create?
Wow?
Wait, are you one of those? They are all my kids and I can't separate them.
No, no, no, I'm not one of those guys. I waldon Peace from the Weld and Peaceful album. Okay, that's the title song. I remember John Coltrane, I love that.
W yeah.
That, and it's just really none of the hits, none of.
The big for us, those other hits. You know, me Little Children is one of my favorites.
Yeah, you know that never don't change.
And the third would be fruit Man.
No, it's we've got some rhythm songs in the Caribbean Festival. Okay, yeah, I'll take that. It had all that listeners in it. That should fine and some of that and so when you hear it, you go, man, about Bubba Buba, about the horns, you know, just you know it's that group and you got that, you know, so it was great.
Okay, So making making those three like your your your favorite yeah, you know, as I said the top of the show Man, it's it's really kind of our missioneer on the show, just you know, to give flowers to legendary people that otherwise might not get there. They're just too as far as you know, a legacy that they set forth. And definitely, you know for all of us here, you know, Cool and Gang represents. I mean, it's an institution of of of just brilliant and you know, it sustained all music, all times, you know, all spaces, and still strong to this day. I mean even my band you know, goes through a Cool in a Gang moment in our current show and you know the songs are are.
But plus you have a Jermaine Jermaine Bryce.
Yeah, yeah, yes, I know that he plays with you guys. Yeah, yeah, he plays He plays with them now.
Yeah yeah, man.
But we just thank you for coming on the show, and we appreciate your you know, your legacy and and and everything that you've done and all your break beats and everything.
We love that. We love it to death.
Thank you. You know, I'm not going to say it's been a long hard road. It's been a long beautiful road being as a creator, you know, because Ronald and I sit and come up with materials. He and I especially back in the late seventies and early eighties. That's what we did. We just sat in the studio and reverse things, put together live albums, you know, from all the tapes. You know the deal, and it just had a ball. And being the old night at six o'clock in the morning, he said, I'll see in a few hours come back again into that whole set. That that that's worth everything, you know, as far as creative people is concerned. That's that's worth it all, you know. And and and it becoming successful too. And if it doesn't become successful, you go back in your tweet, what did we do? What's going on?
So?
And I appreciate you having me on as well.
Thank you for thank you, but it makes it's just like all of us, It makes it a little harder, you know, when you go, I love your music, and you gotta you know that whole thing they're doing, loving fans, but truly truly heartfelt.
Thank you well, thank you.
Yeah on behalf of Sugar, Steve Fontigles on pay Pilly myself, this quest love Supreme. Shout out to Jake and Brittany, thank you for holding it down our family at iHeart and we'll see next week on the next round a quest, Love Supreme.
Don't forget brand new Cooler Gang album in store store stores.
Why he's the minister of information in this band.
I'll take that all right, next week. Yeah, thank you, thank you, bussy.
Much.
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