Quest Love Supreme is a production of I Heart Radio. Okay, that's a negative like a cough and his knees sniff is not a coffer sneed in the sniff. In twenty two, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I am Quest Love your host, and with me is the Almighty Team Supreme. I feel like Don Cornelius every time I have a superlative thing. Mighty Now you guys, Mighty team, Yeah, you're not the mighty Almighty. I think somebody just got sol trained on name mind. I'm actually watching right now anyway, see what's up. But oh my gosh, um, so much like a new man now, don't you I feel different? Yes? Um? After I recorded uh an interview for Question of Supreme with well, let's not give it away yet, let's not give it away yet, but Steve, Steve took the lead and did uh miraculous Jimmy jam numbers four hours with with an incredible guest. And you know we'll hear that episode yes soon. He got the nerd out. I mean I was there as a training wills and then Irish exited and you know, left him on his shone. But it can't wait. Sounded awesome. But your find Steve, Everything's fine. I'm fine. I thought you said you're the fond Steve, and that is how I feel like the Fonsah. I'm definitely cool now, great, great, fine, tack a little. How's it going man, I'm cooling, bro, I'm cooler man, cool and happy to have Mr Denis here today. This is my childhood closing personal for real. Absolutely and uh, you know, like you cannot contain ourselves listen, I am so you don't even understand. I am pumped, beyond pumped, and yes, well, guest today absolutely needs introduction. Um She's a legendary song bird with over seventeen albums, UH nineteen top forty R and B singles, H two number one pop singles, thirteen Grammy nominations for wins. But basically just for the last five decades, um has blessed us with that angelic voice of hers. Be it as a member of Wonder Love You Know Where where we first got to see her on a national level. Um Or just her illustrious solo career and told music with her own solo records on on Columbia Records. Um Or her pop career or her gospel career and yes, um in my opinion, one of the voices of one of my all time favorite TV themes. We'll get into that. This interview has been a long time coming. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Quest Left Supreme, the One and know me. Denise Williams. How you doing. Wonderful. I'm wonderful and really excited to be with you, guys. Finally we've been drying and so here we are and it's lovely. I'm excited to be here with you. I have one question. I am going to start at the beginning of your life, but I gotta get this out the way. So when when my parents brought home, Uh, this is n easy. Your your your first record on Columbia, all right? I was six, I you know, since then, I've had the record in other iterations like eight track and cassette and c D, but you know, the actual vinyl, like I only remember that from my childhood. Is the name Junior or June? Is Junior in your name or June something? Because in your liner notes, I remember seeing that as your name, and I, you know, I have an uncle named Junie and I was trying to ask my mom like, wait, how's her name, Junie? And she's a lady, like what what is what is your your your full name? My full name is June Denise Williams. I was born on June three, so my full and first name is June. Okay, I get it now. I think throughout time, like you know, like when you see something once and then like decades go by. I think at the time I thought maybe your name was Denise Williams Jr. Or something like that, But because she was young, I didn't Yeah, I didn't associate the name June. When I saw that name, I thought of my uncle Junie. I'm like, wait, how does she have his name? So related? You know? I see? And you're a Gemini? Yes, I am all right, I'd forgive you anyway. Nobody's perfect, right, my mother, I will wake up in Martin. My mother looking at me and said, okay, who are you today? You June or you Denise? Which one of my fab today? Oh? Really? Are you dealing with both of us who we have today? We have both today? MS keep myself entertaining too, all right, I get it, I get it. I know. I know that you were born in Gary and d n I. So I usually start with where were you born? But I want to start with a different question. Uh, could you please tell me what your very first musical memory was. My very first musical memory is. I was three years old and I was sitting on the back porch at my grandparents house and I said, um, we will now have a selection from Denise. And I started singing this song called There's a Man Waiting way beyond the clouds. And my dad's sister, my aunt, hurt me that. She came out and she said, if I asked you to sing that song in church on Sunday, what you do it? And I said, okay, And so I sang this song and next thing I know, I was in the children's schore at my church. That's my very first musical memory. And what was it about that song that attracted you to it? I just loved it. Um. I love the melody. I love the message of the song about someone in heaven waiting for me, and the beautiful melody and the fact that I just liked the sound of it when I was singing, at the sound of my voice on it. Of course, you were born in the Midwest, you know there's there's another famous nearby family. Uh. It's kind of synonymous with that series of that city of Gary, Indiana. But could you give me your version, like when I hear of Gary, Indiana besides the song Gary Indiana. Um, you know, I only know of the Jackson's version of Gary, Indiana, which is basically the tale of a father, uh using hooker Crook to get his kids out of that city. But what are your memories of Gary Indiana? Um? I love growing up in Gary. We had in my neighborhood. You know, one thing I realized is that I didn't know that we were poor. You know, I thought we had everything. As long as we had tuna fish, I was fine. I love you right now what I'm saying. So, uh, you know, I had an upbringing in the church. I spent a lot of time on the weekends with my grandparents, and my grandmother was the mother of the church fake Temple Church and Gotten Christs over in East Chicago. So I was there and basically, uh, you know, just grew up with the school, very Christian, uh youngster. You know, I didn't know a lot about what was going on. I think I was very innocent. I don't remember one time one of my neighbors said, you know, the way you got here is your mom and dad. They did the duty and I and I fought with her. I said they did not, And so you know, I was, you know, very innocent, raised that with my brother, two brothers and a sister. And I really liked Gary in those days. You know, school was fun. I had a lot of fun friends. Um, and I didn't know much about, you know, the political system of what was happening. But we did have the first Black mare, which was Richard Hatcher, and so you know, a lot of the history of Gary and the black communities was really really great, you know. Um. Later on, of course, there was the drug scene and that. But I grew up. I didn't start singing until I was a teenager. And so my myth teacher owned a record store and I asked him for a job. I got a job, so I was singing, you know a lot of stuff in there. I had seen Michael and the Jackson Five perform at the Masonic Temple one time, and I think he was about five years old or something, and Um, the their cousin, the drummer in the group, Johnny, had a crush on me. I thought it was a crush on my sister, and maybe it was. So he used to come over to the house and we would see them. I remember, you know, some girls showed up at my house and they said, we want to sing at the Talent Show. But one of our singers is sick. And we heard that you can sing. And one of the girls like us, I said can you sing? I said, well, if you came to church, you know. Okay. So you know I sang in the Talent Show, but I said, when the Jackson five is gonna win the Talent Show, but we sang and actually I think we sang It's gonna take a miracle, and really that was the song we sang in the Talent Show. So um, you know, I loved growing up in Indiana. It was a great time to be raised. There was great the discipline and the growing up in the church, and you know the way the elder black people were at that time and how proud they were as you know, doing their work and that kind of stuff. Of course, later on as a teenager, I did, you know, joined the n Double a c. P. And I did some marchie for Jim Crow, you know, did John Birch society and the folk. So that was also a part of my upbringing. But it was really wonderful to grew up in the Midwest where you had rules and regulations. You you really knew who you were and you know, and what was going on. So it was wonderful. I'm grateful for my upbringing in the Midwestern in Gary, Indiana. Did you have any, uh, sort of interaction with other notable Gary people like I know that um Kim myself from Gary as well, okay, or like Fred Williamson or Ernest Ernest Lee Thomas U who played ride from What's Happening? That was a funny story because my grandfather was a pastor. He had, you know, his membership. That was maybe about of us up in my grandfather's church and he was a pastor, he was a musical director, he was the choir leader, and so the choir existed about five of us and Ernie Lee Toms. Ernie Thomas was one of the members of my grandfather's church. We grew up together. Wow, Okay, I've known him since I was about ten, probably in the early arts, uh commented, did a show at the House of Blues, and you know, Ernest Lee Thomas was in the Foundation room, like all excited, wanted to come back stage, and you know, I see him walking down the hallway and I'm all excited and he's like asking me permission to like you can I can I meet him? Can I, you know, take a photo of everything. He's like, I love this album and everything. He's like all excited and he goes to Common. He's like, yeah, I just you know, I'm trying to be respectful because you know, you know, ask your bodyguard first, if you could, uh, you know, if you could take you or his bodyguard. I'm gonna tell I'm gonna tell you something. Fine. That was the day where I was like, I have to lose weight. So when I never I never shared this story, but it was that day when not I gotta get more famous, I gotta lose weight. But I was like, wait a minute. I went because he he knew everything of that album, and I'm like, wait a minute, how do you know Common but don't know the Roots? And how do you not know that I'm a member of the Roots. And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, no offense, sir. I thought he was his bodyguard. And I was like, man, I gotta lose weight. So that that was the day. Wow, I didn't do that, man, shout out. Shout out to Ernest D. Thomas. Okay, So the thing is is that you grew up in a church environment. What were first of all, how many siblings did you have in your household? Uh? There were two brothers and my sister Derek um is under me Diane? And then Donelle, are you the baby or the I'm the eldest, I'm the oldest? Was the D fault stand for anything where everybody was a D. My mom thought she was being unique. You know what can I say? I mean, my name is d E n I E C E right, my sisters Diane, but it's d y A N N E. She was, you know, trying to be unique and artistic and whatever else she was. You know what, Hey, she knew she was naming like you, we're an artist. You gave art to the world. So growing up in that environment, how like often kind of a common theme with some of the singers that come on the show is often like secular music is frowned upon, like you have to stay in the church. So often they're they're transitioning from the church to kind of you know, secular music whatever sort of met with a frown What what was the general feeling of secular music back then as far as your household was concerned, Well, it was frowned upon. You know. If you did the devil's music, you want to win and role speak it on your way to hell, you know. So I was trying to stay out the hill. But so you weren't allowed to listen to Motown? Oh yeah, I did, of course that you know. But the bottom line is that my mother, who was born and raised in the church under my grandmother, said when she got grown she was never going to church again, and so dropped us off that church on Sunday when I wasn't with my grandfather, she would pick us up, but she did not go in. She was doing the drop off pickup service. And my incredible music fan, so she had a turntable in her bedroom and all of these different records. So when she would go to work and I would get home from school before she got it there, I was sneaking my mother's room and play all her stuff. I mean I probably look like sound like dressed like Nancy Wilson. That was my girl. You know, I'm Nancy Wilson, Dakota State and you know, uh, Billy Eckstein. I was listening to all of them, and you know, with my uh through my mother's music. She had a very um a collected collection. Like I learned a lot of standards songs because she had an album on Jackie Gleason and Jackie it was the Jackie Gleason Orchestra, and they did all these standards but no lyrics. It was just ooz and oz and I learned, you know, I would sing along with all of these, you know these records, Marlina Shaw. I mean, so my whole upbringing with music. Yeah, the secular music was going on in my house. I just you know, my mama didn't know I was sneaking in there listening to all her stuff, but I was. I was up in there. And then on television when you would see certain artists, like I even told Johnny Mathews, I said, Honey, I do this duet because I've been listening to singing with you for thirty years. I was already because in all these shows, and I've been a rehearsal for a long time. So it was my mother's record collection. You know that really introduced me to secular music, and then you know, and then also growing up and my mute math teacher had the record store, so I was over there doing that. So I listened to all of them. You know, I loved all kinds of music, so you know, there was a way made for me to listen even though it was forbidden. I was carrying all my secret music life and enjoying myself. You know, I can't imagine a time where you know, music almost had the same sort of status as you know in some black church as almost like pornography, Like it was just for forbidden. So what was that like for you as a teenager, because you know, being as though you're you were born, you know, by the time that's your thirteen, fourteen fifteen, were like there's now black psychedelic rock, there's you know, hotels going through new phases, sliding the family stone, Like, how how is that affecting your teen years? Well? I tell you it did. And probably the most impactful thing that happened to uh to me was that, Um, I did do a local record you know when I was I think I was eighteen, called Love His Tears, and it was written by Eugene records of the Shy Lights in Barbara Makes a Woman, Barbara Acklin and Jean Because my teacher who owned the um the record store, he was he came in the back one day and he heard me singing by Aretha Franklin record. I think I was singing Ain't no Way something like that. And then he came out to the record party. He said, I didn't know you could sing. I said, because you don't go to church, you know. Yeah, so's he had talked to my mom and say, can I bring over some record people from Chicago to hear her sing, you know, to think about recording her. My mom said yes, because you know she she was like, listen, how do you sing what you want to sing? Them other people in that church they're crazy. And so they came over and they hurt me and they and we recorded this song called Love His Tears and so but when my church I found out that I had recorded that song, they stood me up in church. They stripped me up my membership. I was singing in five choirs at that Indiana State Choir. All these they said I couldn't sing in the choirs anymore. And they went off on me because I was Um, I was a sinner and and I had done this. So you know, after they did that, I kind of swung over to my mother's side in a minute, like I'm not coming back, and so you know, do what you wanna do, all you unhappy women getting up on Sunday snotting and crying at your husband street. Anyway, talk about it that first, that first song you did to Love His Tears. You did that under your name, that wasn't under it was under Denise Chandler because Williams's copy name. So it's Love is Tears by toddling Town Records. You know, I have one over there in my safe I Cappa look kept a look copy somebody sent me and yeah, they got mad with me and stripped me of my membership, and you know I couldn't go. And you know, my best friend at the time where my cousins, and we used to travel with their father who was the pastor and sing and they told me, or we can't have anything to do with you because of your place. And I said, honey, I said, I don't really, Um, that really hurts me. I'm sorry to hear that, but you have to live by what you believe and I have to live by what I believe. So come n did you get your moment? I sure did, and I'm gonna get you more that. We'll get to that, all right, we'll get to that. When did you wind up leaving Gary, Indiana? I love Gary, Indiana. I think when I was eighteen, I went away. Um My, you know, my band teacher, Mr. Bryant was like my father to me, and he um got me into college. His roommate from college was the president of the Morgan State half alma. Yes, I went there, all right, now, So he sent me to Morgan State, you know after that, and so it was like I went there and I'm majored in sex and drugs and you know, like the church people heard me a loose. I went to Morgan State and lost my mind. Quest I lost my mind? Oh wait, can you really say? What? What was Baltimore life back then? Though? When you went to when you went to, you know, Baltimore was wonderful. I enjoyed it. But I had a friend that lived in the dormitory and she was in Philadelphia. Her name was China. So then, um, you know, I was there on a student work kind of a program, and so I went into the high school in Baltimore to be a t A titcher teacher's assistant. And then women in that class they already had babies. Tenth grads had babies. They look rough like they could eat me up. So I was scared. So China said, uh, girl, I heard they're looking for a singer and a dancer down at this club. And so she said, let's go down there in audition. And and so we went down to the club and I got the job singing, and she got the job dancing. And we were singing and dancing in the cage. She'd be on one cage and I was on another cage. So wow, my mama nu anyway, so hold on, we got hold on. Let's go back to the cage. Okay, okay, let's go back to the cage. It was the church. I've already seen the graphics for her episode. We was the opening act for these five guys that was called the Feminicks. They was waiting for they they changed body their surgery at a John Hopkins Hospital, the Baltimore Yes opening nup, Yes, yeah, I forget the club that was popping in Baltimore that was known Oh yeah, so Mr Niece What was your attire in the cage? What was your outfit? Well, I had on a little jumpsuit, you know, Chad had on a little jumpsuits. That we was in the cage and I was singing by you know, the records of Wrentha and all that kind of stuff, and she'd be there. Yeah, I made more money in occasion I would have made if I stayed at school. This was your first time out of away from home. And I'm telling you, this was my first time because my mom barred my a neighbor's car, Ronnie. He bared Ronney car and she drove me from Gary, Indiana to Baltimore. And when my mom left, I was standing there and then I pick up and she'd be down the road and she's gone, and then I couldn't see. I said, listen, I'm glad it had a history, Thank god, no mony. And they already had me church had me set up in a church at Baltimore and people that was gonna pick me up on Sunday and take me to church. So let me lasted about two months. Oh it lasted that loan, that's it lasted that long. I see. So, okay, you're in Baltimore. But the thing is, you released a single, So in your mind when you made that single, was that just a one off thing? Okay, I made it, I made a forty five and whatever. But I mean, are you actively pursuing, like, Okay, I want to do this for real, I want to get a record deal and release music or is it just like Okay, I did that. That was fun. You know, I never wanted to sing um with that voice. No, because I grew up in a church with a lot of great gospel singers. My cousins, they would you know, they would saying, and folks would be slaying in the spirit and falling out a shopping and running off through the church. And I was saying, and they would listen and cry. Yeah, And I would think I'm doing something wrong because they're not falling out and speaking in tom and doing all of that. They're just listening and they're crying. I mean, they would be boo who crying when I was saying, And so I just thought I didn't have it. And and my mom was a nurse's aid. My grandmother worked in the hospital as the nurse's age. I had an aunt who worked in sterilizing instruments, and so I wanted to be a nurse. That's what I was gonna do that. Remember that, Okay, I wanted to be a nurse. I wasn't thinking about the music industry or pursuing that at all. So who explained the tears to you and what they really meant? What heaven? Who's going was that? Who explained the tears to you? Like? Who explained yeah, because at the end of the day, you know, you still do that. So but it's it's a good thing. So I was saying anything to me, you know, they weren't saying a whole lot to my cousins that was following out. You know, they would have their experience and falling out, but didn't explain their reaction or their connection to what we were saying. Probably the only one that did that was my cousin who was kind of like my music teacher, you know. You know, Denise, there's um if the altours are not strong enough or the second sopranto, first apparanto, just feeling the whole, you know, just wherever the weakest, hardest. No, Denise, I mean, did anybody ever explain to you that those tears meant so much? More, you know, or or gift. Yes, because to this day those songs like your songs. I was listening today just remember and tearing up. So that's a thing. Yeah, yeah, But they never said anything, you know, they would just you know, got critical when I did the R and B song expressed you know, their thoughts about my my talents and my cousins who had people fallen out. You know, they were the big, big cheese. They were the big and you know, the pastors children, and so they were the big folks in the church. And so I never thought I had a something. I better go to school and be a nurse, you know. So that's the reason why I went to Baltimore. And like I said, I don't remember one professor, and the professor Dix, and that was because she had gone to Africa and had all this fabulous jewelry, you know, for Africa, and I remember her. I don't remember the rest of it except being in the cage. Man. I love the storyteller. Well, first of all, is that was that your first like true professional experience, uh singing background or with the national artist that I mean with Stevie Wonder he was the very first. Well, now let me back up. When I did the local song, I was asked to sing at the Masonic Temple on this show UH with Jerry Butler, and and then I I was asked if I would, you know, singing let it be me with him, because I think he sang with a good and I think, yeah, yeah, So I sang let it be me with with with Jerry Butler, and I was like, oh gosh, I thought I had died and gone to heaven, you know, because I loved his voice. He was huge in those days in the Chicago area and you know, all over with music. And so that was my first time singing with a professional person. But the second time would be with Stevie Wonder. So what led you to that journey. I had a cousin, John Harris, and when John's grandmother and my grandmother were sisters, but John lived in Detroit. So the first time John came, oh Lord Jesus, I fell in love with that black man. He had compel. He was, you know yet that cank and his hair girl like okay, and so um he would come. So my sister said, don't even think about it. That's your cousin, that's blood. You'll get together. You're gonna have idiot children, you know what I mean. John. So John would come in, you know, every every summer for one week and then what So He's from Detroit, so he kept telling me, telling us, you know, I worked with Stevie Wonder. I said, boy, you Pinocchio, your nose is grun. You don't know Stevie Wonder. Everybody in Detroit say they know Stevie Wonder. And he told me that for like three years that he knew I was working with Stevie Wonder. So when I went to school in Baltimore, he called and he said, Okay, Stevie's doing a concert in Baltimore and I'm gonna give you a backstage pass. And so I went to the concert. He introduced me to Stevie. I think I first met him when I was eighteen, and he introduced me to Stevie. So I was apologizing to John John society believed. So anyway, Um, that's how I first mess. Do you know, I let him drive my car with his blind stellf yo. It's like a whole long list of people who let him do this. Why we didn't do a compilation on the amount of time Stevie Wonder has driven someone's car. My life flashed in front of my eyes. And he is too. But anyway, so you were in the car. While you wouldn't just letting him drive it, you were riding with him. You got around with you foot on the break. I love Jesus, but I wasn't trying to see him that day. So anyhow, about two years after that, uh, John Camming, he said, hey, what you're doing? And I said, man, I had to leave school because that science was kicking my butt. I said, I don't know what I do with myself, and I you know, I can't handle the scienst He said, well, you want me to get you an audition with Stevie. I said, there you go, there you go. He said, no, Denny's. He said, you know he's auditioning for singers, and if you want to, I'll get him to give you a ticket to come to Detroit and you can, uh you know, audition, And that's what happened. I went in. There was about twenty of us and I was one of the three that he chose for Wonder Love. I mean, I consider the core of you, Jim Gilstrap Jim I first came aboard huh, okay, I never saw a wonder love with the a male singer. Okay, that's Doe. Lonnie Gross was there's Jim and Lonnie Gross was there when I joined, and then uh, Shirley came a little bit after me. Okay, so also but before the Supreme, which came after two after Lonnie laughed. Yeah, that's Jim singing, if I'm not mistaking. Is that Jim singing the first verse of your the Sunshine of My Life? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah. He's also the male voice on Good Times. I gotta tell the choice of Superman and Jim is the singing partner one that uh is Another artist that was on Motown that Stevie was managing at the time named Blinky And oh you know, okay, but there's one scene in Summer Soul that I had to leave out. Blinky was like a performer on the on the festival and they were doing a cover of Light My Fire. And you know, these are union musicians, not like people that are familiar with the music, and a gust of wind came and blew the music sheet off of their stands. So it's one of the most hilarious moments of them, not knowing how to end the song. So there they keep playing it around circle and this is it's the greatest car crash I've ever heard in my life of her trying to end the song. But you know, it couldn't happen. But I always wanted to know, like, was Blinky one of his background singers or just I never heard that she was one of his background singers. I know her as a singer and as a as a recording artist, but I never heard that she was actually one of the Yeah, he managed her, or at least according to the contracts that that we had, he was one of her managers, but her and Van fair Um were under him. But okay, I always wanted to know, like about the other singers that we're in the stable and if they were wonder love members or whatnot um experience, because I was about to ask the audition, I was like, what was that? Like, Yeah, what's that experience? Like? That was scary because you know, some of them showed up with the piano there, and they had music they wanted this thing. I just showed up and and just watching everybody, you know, in their professional audition. I was sitting there and saying, oh God, oh god, I don't know why I can't. So then he called me up and I started to cry. I said, I don't know what to sing. I don't know what to do. So he started playing teach Me Tonight, and then I would, you know, sing along with him, and I learned, and i'd, you know, do some rips or something, would teach me tonight. And then all of us at the very end, you know, it has split up into four part harmony, and we all ended with singing teach Me Tonight. And that was my audition. I was not prepared. I was not ready, but he saw something. I see all right? That that makes sense for our listeners who don't know. Everyone in that band was a legend. I mean from drummer Ali Brown to of course we know Ray Parker Jr. Michaelson, Bello, Um, just like yeah, yeah, Michael, all those people, but even like the so just in general, like I was, I always thought of Wonder Loves as an army. What was it like for you? How was your experience in touring with that unit? Um? Well, I was scared, so it was difficult, but I came in. Dave Sanmborg was on saxophone. The Brecker Brothers were playing with Stevie, right San Bern and the Brecker Brothers were there, so uh, there was a lot of incredible musicians that came through Stevie's stable. Um it was hard for me, uh in the beginning because I when I actually came, by the time I did the audition, UM, I had one son. You know, I had been married and I had had had a son. So me trying to balance motherhood and ballast the professional business of of the recording industry was really tough. But he really worked with me because you know, I'd be singing and one of the girlfriends would be studing on the side with the baby, you know. So you know, he really worked. And it was hard because I was the only one that was apparent. Nobody else had any children, so they weren't leading that double life of you know, having this profession and touring but still having to raise you know, my child, raise my child. And I think by the second year I was with him, I had another baby, you know. So um, it was you know, it wasn't easy. I was scared. Um. You know, the very first concert I did with him, somebody said we were gonna be doing in Philadelphia, and I remember it was a club in in a King of Pressure Philadelphia. I saw from outside the hotel, you know, saying Philly that way, and we were in King of Pressure. But you know, it was just me. A code thing for me was balancing, um, a career and being a mother. It's vento mm hm. You know, because I think in everyone's mind, especially by the seventies, it's like, oh, you're on television, you must be a millionaire. Oh my god, they're on Sesame Street, they gotta be rich. So was singing with one of the premiere acts of of his era. Was that a good living back in ninety two? I think it was an okay living. You know, we made it work, um, but no, Steve was making the money and you know we were getting our salary. Uh. That was you know, it was okay, but it wasn't great. Um. The thing that really helped me is that my mom left Indiana and moved out to California, so she was helping with the kids and we were living together. So that was a great help to me that my mom decided, you know, I want you to have this career and I don't want you to be you know, so concerned about the boys and and and actually it had not it been for my mom coming out. I couldn't have trusted my children to anybody else. She look that awful me and collectively we you know, we did okay, was it? You know? Was was I rich? Or no? You know, okay? Um, but you know we we made it work, you know, definitely we made it work. So and being in the wonder love one of the requirements was or not requirements, but you felt it was wise for you to move to Los Angeles as opposed to just going north to New York. Or initially in the beginning we did go to New York, but then after being there for a couple of months, Stevie decided to move to Los Angeles, and so we went to l A. And this also include uh, session work as well, like what notable songs are you singing background on? I didn't do a lot of session work with him, and I started doing a lot of session work when I left him, you know, so you know, I sang quite a bit with ROBERTA. Flack, who then eventually hired me, Lonnie Gross and Patty Austin to travel her with her as background singers. It was what was right, Um, I'm I think I'm on that's the time and feel like making love and ROBERTA Flack you know so um. But when I was with Stevie, I didn't do a whole lot of background work. You know. I was on a retainer, I was on a salary, and I felt a responsibility to stay there and sing with him and not go out and do a lot of stuff. But the minute I stepped away, I was doing quite a bit. Okay, who who else was poaching you at the time when you were in Wonder Love too? Come sing with me? Well. I had a real frightening experience with Ike Turner, you know, wow, I tried to talk to me, and after he had me speaking in tongues up in there, I felt Jesus, I got the gun, and uh, Kenny Gamble and you know, Philadelphia hurt me singing and they approached me, and I said, you know that's okay because Kenny Gambles had like a chair that sat like a throne high and he had you sitting down, and I thought, I don't think I liked this too much, so I said, no, thank you. You know, the man, I get it. I'll sit on the floor from now then tell me to go up in there, and I want to go, and I was scared, and he was saying, I don't think it's just for you, Denise, And I think I agree it's not. Bye, So wait, can you tell us what's the words that I say words to you that made you go? Or was it I wanted to know what I wanted to do and what I wanted to do with my career where you know, I think I wanted to go. And I said, uh, I think I'm gonna stay right there with wonder lover right now. And thank you so much for considering and talking to me. Thank you you could be taking the Yeah, I think you made the right decision. I should note that, um. You know, in seventy two one of the more unusual pairings. Um. Again, even as as unusual pairings go, like for those that have seen you know, Bill Graham's lineups, like it was very typical for you to see like Miles Davis and The Grateful Dead one Night, or like Jimmie Hendrickson, you know, like some other act that's the opposite of him. But you guys happened to be on tour. And you know, for those that follow the history of the Rolling Stones Um. It should probably be noted that perhaps their nine two tour, um documented very well in a yet unseen documentary called Cocksucker Blues Um was really like one of the first sort of ganders into what we now think like debauchery rock life was you know, the idea of private airplanes and groupies on the road and just at least at least the half hour of that documentary that I saw, Um, can you talk about And I'm mainly asking this because you know, ten years later they'll try the same thing that Prince and the experience was not good for Prince where you know, he was famously booed off stage. But at the time when Stevie Wonders being asked a tour with the Rolling Stones, was there was there any trepidation at all, like, Okay, what do they want with the soul act and how do we like? What was the audience response to Night after Night too? To Stevie wonder who had yet to really prove himself as an adult artist, Well, they absolutely loved him. Stevie got during that particular tour, he got, you know, mad reception from the audience. And I think that you know, that's what really blew him up when he opened for the Rolling Stones, who was were renowned and well you know known, and the music well known. So that opened up the door, a giant door for uh Stevie to be there with them. And the reception was, you know, was what he did very well. So you guys weren't pelted with any tomatoes or any of those things. But are you familiar with the Print story at all? No? Yeah, so you know, Mick Jagger is a fan of dirty mining controversy and asked Prints to open up for the Rolling Stones and about one song and just you know, the first time is this merciless booze and some Jack Daniels bottles. But the next day they came armed with like, you know, chicken and watermelon, and so it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't, which is where it considered that it's Los Angeles. You would think like Los Angeles is way harder, yeah, to please than New York City was. But you can't do that to a blind man. Now, we can't be doing a water melain is on staate. No, I didn't know that that happened to him, but we you know, we were fine. I think the thing that terrified me, especially as a little church girl, is the drugs that were circulated that they have their own doctor on the road with them to keep them pumped up. And it's like, oh, Jesus, so you know, we haven't had an artist on here that has been on a tour and of that magnitude. So what can you describe? You know, I mean we we haven't. I mean we can imagine, like what it's like on a wild crazy tour, but you just generally describe what you saw like during that time period. Well, you know, it was really funny. Um what usually happened with me on those tours, and it started with that tour is all the roadies really liked me, and they would saying, you know, you want some hashy, you want you know, we got to coke. We got that, And I said, not in Jesus knowing Jesus name, I don't want none of that. You know real quick that I'm not gonna be bothered with none of that. You can't handle couci and by back it is I had to play the Jesus card, you know, you know, because once I went to preaching and talking about Jesus, they would back up like, oh, yeah, she really and she's cute little girl, you know, but she really, she's not gonna do nothing, you know. But they, you know, they would offer me, well we got this, and they walk up with the rolls stuff and walk over stuff and us, no, no, God, don't. I don't like that. So I, you know, I played that the Christian card, and after a while they would see that I wasn't interested, so they would leave me alone. But I remember one night, for some reason, I got caught coming out late and we were supposed to come out and get on the bus, and for some reason, I don't know why, I got um disconnected from the group and so I went out. The crowd outside was crazy. It was in Chicago, and they were boringtier the police were thorn tear gas, and so I got caught up in that. I did my bus and I hopped on I got on it, but I did the you know, the tear gas thing and what had gotten my eyes. So that was probably one of the worst experiences I had with them, except for the after party at the Playboy Matchion in Chicago, when I it took me a long time to get out of there because I couldn't find a dope, just a girl. I just I wonder how long he was in there trying to find the door, and all the forty five minutes in one room. I walked down the hall and that there was nothing in the room but a hole in a pole. So I maybe if I go down the pole, I'll found the door. So I went down the point. You're sleeping, So you're slipping. You're sliding down like I'm trying to be. Out. Down means out, go ahead and slid down the pole. Yeah, I was trying to get out of there. First of the last time you slid down a pole. Last first and the last, I said, Lord Jesus of you getting me out of here. You don't have to never word about me coming up in here again. And wow, okay, I'm so ready. Wait a minute, wait, wait moment. I would like to get her version of this story now. Uh you know you're your your fellow uh wonder Lovey and Ray part Parker Jr. Kind Of Gave a very ambiguous hint. I wouldn't totally confirm it. We also, I mean, this is way before Greg villain gains this time, but I need to ask. Okay, So the week that intervisions gets released. Uh, you guys are booked somewhere in North Carolina, Stevie Wonder is in an accident. Mm hmm. What is your version of what happened? I believe our cousin. What I remember is that my cousin John was driving there in the car and John fell asleep. Your cousin was the driver. I believe John was yeah, oh okay, are really tied together? Yeah? Wow, okay. I I wasn't even ready for that. I sort of had the feeling that they were trying. He was trying to allude to me that this is one of those moments where Stevie insisted on driving or whatever, and so I don't think he was driving. If I remember correctly, my cousin John was driving and and he nodded he fell asleep or something like that. That's my recollection of the store. Doesn't make it true, but that's what I was I heard, and I have already thought happened because because I was too young to remember it and only heard about it in sort of like retrospect. Was there were you guys basically like, well, he won't make it, because I remembered Stevie was in a coma for at least a month or so, correct, I didn't know it was a month or so, but I know he was badly injured here, he was out of it for a while. But okay, so in your mind is it like he may make it, he may not make it, like what's going through the mind of the band, at least in terms of we didn't know exactly if he was going to make it or not. You know, we didn't know what was happening after that. But you know, you just pray and hope for the best, and then and then he did come out of it, you know, so, and I was grateful for that, even for his sake, for John's sake, for feeling so guilty, so bad about to carry that load. So for him to come out of it and would accomplish the things he accomplished really helped the spirit and the heart of John, all right. So I also know that you're one of the last people to work with the great Charles Stepanie, whom you know for our KLS listeners um really mean, yeah, any anything on on Cadet records, the Lewis Ramsey Lewis, the seventies output of the Dells, you know, even some of the blues artists, like you know with Muddy Waters record and the Electric Mud album and many reprettions come to My Garden album, but you know, most notably his, he's the one that really took Earthwen and Fire and was a mentor to Maurice White. So a big part of that earth Wind and Fire sound that we're so in love with. You know, it's due to the colors that Charles Stephanie painted. Knowing nothing about him, really, could you describe what Charles Stephanie was in your world and just in general for just that whole organization. What's Charles Stephanie, like you said, brought a color and a style to Earthwin and Fire that was really the most beautiful collaboration in their music. As far as I'm concerned, Charles Stephanie was just brilliant. When I was doing a song called on my first project, if You Don't Believe, and and he just lifted up the top of the piano, he took a guitar pick and just strum on the strings. And what you hear in the very in the very beginning of if You Don't Believe, he and Oscar Burscher on trump it and he's just taking a guitar pick and strumming on those strings. I don't know who else would have thought of that. The way he heard my music, the way he heard my voice, even the way he heard Many Ripperton's voice, and what he did with the Rotary Connection and with many um the way he you know, Charles Stephanie was just a brilliant producer and a arranger. And you can tell how the music changed and how he was missed after Charles passed away. The sound of Earth when it fire changed. It didn't change in a bad way, but it changed in a different way. You've now got a whole different sound than the sound that Charles Stephanie created with That's the Way of the World and those you know, those songs. He was that whole flavor, that whole field, that whole touch was gone. He was very very, very very powerful or played a such a big role in my music, the emotions music, Earth winning virus music. Many were in the Rotary Connection. He there's just nobody like him. I know that Maurice went with another arranger and he was very very good. Tom Tom eighty Tom Tom eighty four, but Tom Tom eighty four and Charles Stephanie had two very very different sounds and approaches. And I believe that once Charles passed, what you could hear it at the time, are you hoping that perhaps you could have your own career as a singer or maybe one that love does a record, because you know at the time CBS doing the Serta album. He's also working with you know, he does stuff with the Supremes, he does Point of Systems and Miracles. Yeah, exactly. So for you, what was it about whatever more East White was bringing to the table that made you just decide to go with that camp And how do you leave the Wonder Love camping? Was it amicable? I don't think No, it wasn't amicable. I think if you asked Ray Parker the same question, he probably said, no, it wasn't amicable. Um, all right, so walk us through how do you leave the situation? Um? Well, for three years I was with Steve for three three three and a half years, and for three years he promised to do a project on Wonderlove and it never happened. We would be in the studio writing and you know, rehearsing, and he never would record us. It was always one excuse after the other for him not to record us, Like you said, he was working with other artists, other artists you know that had um careers already. He did something with the Jackson Bid, you know, you know, he he was working with other artists, but when it came to Wonder Love, he wasn't doing anything. And finally we had a discussion about it, and he got, you know, upset that I chose to confront him on this issue, and so I said, okay, I'm done. So what happened is one night when Wonder levels performing, we would always perform one of our songs, and so this one night, they said, let's do Denise's song Free, you know, which I had written when I was with Sousay Green and Um Nathan Watson when we were in Wonder Love, which was one of the songs that we were hoping to record us Wonder Love. And so that night they said, we were, you know, let's do Denise's song. So I sang Free that night. But what I didn't know as Maurice White, Philip Bailey, Verdine White and their attorney was sitting on the front row singing Free. So then Um, the attorney came backstage and he said, Oh, we loved your your performance. Who wrote that song? Who song is that? I said, Well, I wrote it with a couple of people in the band, I said, but I got other songs too, and Philip can singing because we got a same register. So, um, that's how it happened that Maurice White, Maurice and those guys heard me sing, and that's you know, that's how I got introduced to them. It was wild. I was with Stevie, so I think another six seven months went by and Steve still wasn't doing anything, so I left, and um I left him, and UM I got Uh. That's when I jared roberta Flak with Lonnie Groves and Patti Austin. And while I was doing roberta Flak, I got a call saying that Maurice wanted to meet with me, and I you know, I had the meeting with them and the seven songs that I sent hoping that earth win and fire would cover them, and Philip was singing, Uh, it's the seven songs that Maurice wanted decided to do my first project on. So that's how that happened that, you know, I just got you know, a little tire sort of waiting on Steve to do what he kept telling us he would do it, and like even like six months after I've been there and he you know, he wasn't doing it. Um he did. He did many repretends. Personally. I was on you know, Many's album, um of the Perfect Angel album, and he was doing all this stuff with other people. And I understand that, you know, they had record deals, they had money to pay him for his production. I understood that, but I felt like, you could we could at least record one song every other month or something to project together, and he was just really lax and doing that, and you know, I said no, especially when you know, I made great money with ROBERTA. Flack And I will always be grateful to her because wonder lovely girls. You know, we traveled with the band on the bus. When we were singing with ROBERTA. Flag she said, no, no, no, you right in the limousine with me, and it was a whole different treatment. She taught me a lot about how to treat the people that you're on the stage with. That you know, that has always carried with me because, um, like I said, the ladies we were on the bust with the band and the equipment of stuff, and with her we were riding the limousine and then you know, Maurice, we reached out. We had a meeting and I ended up recording with him songs in the Key of Life isn't even created yet. Was there a slight regret? Not regret, but you know, songs in the Key of Life comes out? And of course this is Stevie's magnum opus. Like even at that time period, did you have any sort of worries of trepidation, like, ah, we might have jumped the ship to you early because this is a project that sets him off in the stratosphere. Or was it just like, Okay, I'm out here on my own, let's just no regrets, let's go for it. I wasn't on my own. I was with Earth Went and Fire and I was roberta Flak, you know, two groups who I respected, uh and who were interested in working with me. You know, so I did not feel like I was on my own. I was very happy for him, and I was more happy to be a part of that whole situation. I mean, I have oh we can see in the back. I asked him up here somewhere because he gave me a plaque, you know, for being on the um, being on the project. But in my heart and then my spirit, I felt it was time to go. I did not feel that there was any room to grow. I just felt like, you know, we're gonna be here for the next twenty years. In fact, he has a band member that I was in a band with, Nathan Wats, is still there. And it's the thirty five years. I was going to say, Nathan is still He's still with them, And that could have been you know, any of us if we had decided to stay. And I have babies to feed, I have mouth to feed. I didn't have time to be sitting there. Those job lessons right there are supposed to give it, what two three years, and if you know it ain't no movement. Then on that third year, I finally dawned on me this this could go on for a while, and I really didn't want to uh to be there another three years or so years and he's still not do you know for wonder love what he was doing for other people. But like I said, you know, looking at it, you know he was being paid to produce. They had record labels, they had budgets, and you know he would have to do for us. So no, I didn't feel alone. I mean, especially when I jumped over there with earth Wind and Fire, there was nowhere to feel alone. In a Clarisa, Philip Bailey and I became very very very close friends, you know, foring that time. That was my buddy. So were you opening for them at the time when you went to their camp. I did. I was the opening act. I would trade off with the emotions. I would, you know, do a couple of the tours and then the emotion came on and then they had both of us as opening acts for Earthly Fire. So what did it feel like the first time in which you're in charge now where you're the artist and you have a band and all these things, Like was it weird now having to have the heavy lifting and decisions be up to you as opposed to getting an itinerary and see like what the thing is? And how did that feel for you? Like that first few months, it was very scared, you know, because I've been in the background and now I was in the forefront and they were literally pushing me out on stage. I didn't want to go. I was the back backstage and they were talking to calling my name, and I said, I don't think I can do this. I don't want to do this. I don't think I can do this, you know, and they'd be back there, you gotta do it, push you know. I went out there. I mean it was like maybe three or four years before I feel comfortable going out there, you know. But um, you know, it's very different, like you said, when you're you know, somebody is taking care of everything, booking your hotel's, booking your flights. You know, everything is going through you know, somebody else, and then all of a sudden, you've got to do this. So you have people that are doing it, but still you're you know, you're the head person that you've got to talk them through us. So it was very frightening, you know, for a while, and very frightening because one of my first tours as a solo artist was with the Ohio Players, them crazy folks. So I was saying, okay, Jesus, okay, Jesus. I mean, the boys was nuts one night and shook my hand and put his hotel room key in my hand and say, you know, I want to see you at midnight. So I ran to my road man and not him, but one of the mothers. And I am telling which one it was. It was your player pera. Well, he put his lana and I would run it to my road manager, who was Leonard Smith, who was the big six ft eight guy in the show with Earth when the fire to hit the gong uh and stout down the road with me, I said, let him to be his room. He said, don't worry about it, give me the key. Damn who me after that at all? That was it? He night, I got your key right here. But the next thing about the tour with them was um is that they had about thirty grand worth of lights and special lighting and stuff. And so the the all of the light guys, all the little little you know, all the little roadies, they just loved me. So they said one night they said, you know, we don't use half of what we have, so we've been using it on you. I said, oh, you know, I was the opening been using it on you. And then as I was out there with them, free kept climbing up the charts, and so they got mad at me. Oh you were showing them up because they were yeah after just you know, going up the charts, and they were just doing all they loved, you know, spending the thirty grand and light. They said they're not using half of what we got, so we didn't using them on you. I said, oh, thank you. Okay. My favorite album of yours was your, your sophomore album, song that. I believe that the single from that record is baby My Love is all for You. In my mind, I always thought that was like a massive, big hit. But what happened for that period in Songbird for You that didn't happen for the debut record, because I thought that album was bigger. It was my favorite, so I thought it was bigger. But can you talk to me about what happened there? I think that the main thing that happened there is that Charles Stephanie passed away and the sound changed. Okay, Murray was turning down original material that I had written to bring in outside material. So I think that that was two of the biggest problems with the project is that he no longer wanted to hear my personal expression, and he brought in other people to write and and that, and that m Charles Stephanie had passed away and we were now dealing with Tom Tom eight for ad and and those were the things that I think, and I think so like, wait a minute, we heard this, and now you're doing this, and we needed another project like this is easy to solidify who I was. And and yet Maurice, uh not, you know, not anything due to him, but it changed up and people were too scrambling to find out who is she really, you know, because this is not what we heard the first time around. And then I was also fighting with Sony, I mean Colombia us I did, God is truly amazing, and they were saying, we're not paying her to sing gospel stuff? What is this? God is amazing stuff? You know? And they were mad with me. I said, listen, if we got ten songs on a project, I'm gonna give him one. Get over it. And so we fought the next couple of years about me doing gospel music on my secular projects. So that's going on to they were mad and I don't this period of Columbia or it was Walter and those guys. Yeah, very nice to me though. I you know, I would go in there saying, once I need another couple of hundred ground, what are you in here? But he would give it to me. So anyway, uh, that was the bottom line. I didn't care how much he fussed. Go call Marvin down there in legal and send me my money baby knee shoes. And he always gave me the money. So um, you know, and no fields know nothing, you know, get back up just right the check now, oh heavy. So that was still. That was prevalent. That was prevalent just throughout. Oh yeah, I loved watching Nicofee. Was very very good to me. Bruce Lumba started and then walked her. They were always very very good to me, uh and very respectful. And I would say, you know, I'm praying for you, you know. So they said, oh did she go? But they were very um, not happy with me. Would do the gospel stuff. That's crazy because I of you know, of all your songs that I definitely remember that that made an impression on my household, like God is Julie amazing and all those things. And that's the thing now for R and B singers to do to prove themselves on records now putting there the gospel record on the gospel jam last did you feel the need to do that to sort of send a smoke signal back home to Gary Indian Church? You know, I did it because of my love for Father's son and Holy Ghost. I did it for me. I didn't do it for them, and at that time, I didn't really care about their opinion. But that's you know. I was raised in the church, and I felt like the people were gonna have a total overview of me as an artist. I would have to do some gospel because that was a part of who I was. And so that's why I did it. Um, you know, I did it for me and to make a statement to um, to God that you know, I'm really grateful for what you're allowing to happen in my life. And so I'm giving you this. You know, I'm dedicating this portion to you. But eventually you do return to Gary, Indiana. What is the response now that you're an established artist? Oh? Very different? And now I'm I'm okay now you know I met back in Yeah, they're still acting a little funny, you know, because they still don't support or agree with what I'm doing. But it was funny. Came back around that time and I attended church with my um, two sons, and my uncle decided to preach a whole sermon uh and to church that Sunday on how I was going to help because I had on makeup and thinking that will polish and so how and my children were there. So I got up and I came back, and you know, I was crying. I told my mother about it. So my mother wrote a letter to them, said I heard what you guys did with my daughter, and this is what I want to tell him. I heard you've been burned burning up the mortgage papers because you didn't paid off the church. My daughter paid for that church. I want her money back with interest or shut the hello. You what you need another word? The next time I went to church, my uncle said, a man, sister Denis, is here. Switch that tune up quick for you love them off? She said, I want her money back with interests. You over that burning the margat's paper. We know how you burn on him. That's the ties she's been sending money. But I said that. I didn't said, y'all didn't say. She said, I want the money back with a shut the hello and in another word. Your first number one single comes a year later, uh and probably the most unusual way. But this song was inescapable when I was a kid. Could you talk about the decision to pair up with Johnny Mathis and will do just what that whole experience was like and the irony that the second to last song on that record, in my opinion, winds up being even more popular than Too Much, Too Little, Too Late, which is of course the the theme the family ties Without Us. Could you talk about that whole experience and doing that record, Well, it was wonderful. I was on the road opening off for Earth When a Fire, but I got a call from my manager and he was saying, you know, Johnny's considering doing a duet and your name has come up. What do you think. I said, Oh my god, I would love to sing with him. I didn't you know, looking and singing along with him on television all these years. I would love to do that. And so you know, they said, okay, Denise's is willing to do it. Because they first went to my other the artists on the label. They went to Barbara Straints and and she said no, thank you girl. Yeah she said no. So then they came to me, you know, the second strongest Steamer artists on the label. Yeah. So it was funny. So when I told my mother I was gonna see what Johnny Mathews. She said, O girl, I gotta get my nails done. I wanted uh oh yeah, I said, momm not taking you up in there, because you know, I know Mama was gonna be buck wow. We were to get no work done because she did that to me with Marvin Gaye. So I know you just trying to go back, go back and will I'll introduce you to Johnny later. And I did you know, Wait, that's two stories. Good back. Wait what happened? Well, Marvin Gaye's brother was performing at a club called the Troubadour, and huh and I wanted to see him, so he went down. I took my mom at the took troop of door and we went down to see Frankie singing. And so what happens is we sitting in our seats, but then here comes Marvin. He come walking in there, and my mom was went off, Oh this the lover, oh love, Oh come yeah, honey, and she has went off with Marvin gay And I like, excuse me, Johnny rolled around. I want taking no chances, right, and I said, you'll meet him later, but you are not going to the studio. She didn't talk to me for a day. Or two, but she met him and it was all co mhm, best daughter ever. So in in recording that record though, and especially with the song like too much, too a little too late, which okay, yes, you you're not the ilk of a tenor baritone gospel singer, you know of of the Mahalia aretha. Uh. First of all, you're you're a soprano. So even with your the voice that you have, what is your active range? Like, are you able to also sing low as well? And you just chose to sing singing your upper register? Or I think I have a really nice low register that most people have not heard. But um, for some reason, when I was writing, I was just writing in those registers. So that's you know, that's what I did. I never did, um right in the lower register of thinking the lord register. And a lot of what you hear me do is my mom. I used to you know, my mom was singing the shower and I'd be standing outside of the shower listening to her, and you know, all that stuff she did. You know, I got that from my You know, I got that from my mom. Choose to do so? Um, I think a lot of what you hear is me mimicking her as she did not, you know, sing, I didn't hear her a lot of in the lord register, but I do have a really nice uh lower registered. So that said, because you know, if I were of age of them, I wouldn't been able to call that particular do what simply because I don't know Johnny as a a belter or an ad libber and that sort of thing. And of course, you know, when when you get to the end of that song, I mean, you're just you're singing. You're not singing circles around him, but you know the way that your ad libs are, You're just I mean, it's it's near Jordan's levels of display, like he's the the sort of like I'm not trying to compare to Appen and Costello, Like there's the straight man and then there's the punch line person. But you know, every do you guys, Do you guys discuss how you're going to do this? Are you singing together at the same time? Is it like I'll sing my part first and then you come and at your parts later and then I've read stick like for that album. Are you singing is it together in person? Or how do you handle that well, we would listen to the song and the song would go down, and and then John felt comfortable with me telling him a little bit of how to sing because he said, I've never sing with anybody before, and you sing with Stevie and Roberta, so you know, you know those kind of nuances. So basically we would run the song down and I say, I'm gonna sing this. You know, I'll sing this line and you sing that line. So basically he was the straight person and I would just kind of, you know, go around what he was doing and try to add some more color um to it. And and and it was fun because, um, when we did that, we complimented each other. Who aren't running all over each other or not doing anything exciting. We just you know, it kind of worked out like that for me to do more of the coloring than by he drew. He was the lines and you kind of colored. That's kind of we're with the massive success of that song. Um, was there never a discussion to have a follow up record as well? Um? No, Well, you know, we wanted to do stuff, but really, um, managers, we're really scared of me because you know, I'm I'm black woman and I'm telling what to do, and he started listening, and so I think that they came to a conclusion, we need to get her on out of there. So they did. Seriously, they just one and done well because Johnny, you know, started really listening to me and I'm a strong independent woman and that's not his reality. And so after you know, talking with him and hanging out with him a couple of times, uh, they said she's a little bit too much of an influence over him. So neither. So the thing is is that I can't you know, Philip talked about it a little bit, but you know, he didn't really go into it. But of course, like the second big producer that comes into the Earth one Fire stratosphere is David Foster. And you know, like our our listeners know that David you know did like Wildflower everything everything. Yeah, I mean, well, I mean but mostly just as the soul guy like did like you birth and all that stuff. And of course, um, even even though Earth Win and Fire was able to coast to a fine level with the all in all record with Marius at the Helm, of course David Foster comes aboard. And it's always been controversial with David Foster. I think in real time people were sort of grumbling about David Foster's production. And of course now the decades have gone by, everyone's like I always loved After the Love Is Going and all those things. But I know that Foster worked on the When Love Comes Calling record, and and I'm not certain what the chart position was of I got the Next Dance. I remember hearing a lot on black radio in Philadelphia. What was your experience or what you're feeling about the When Love Comes Calling record? Because I know that sounded very radically different then the first two albums produced by Maurice and Maurice and Charles. But before When Love Comes Calling, who decided to really change it up? Well, Maurice was working with David and so then they said, well let's put Denise with David. But it was not a good pairing for Meat and David to work together. First of all, he was very condescending, you know, producer to artists, and he um, you know, says something to me one day and I took the headphones off and I came in. I said, you know what, we will not work together if you do that again. I said, I don't even want to go there. I said, you will not try that with me. I don't know who you talked to like that, but you will be talking to me like that. I said, we will not be doing this. I said, you're gonna respect me like you want me to respect you. And if you can't do that, then you need to walk out of here now because I am not having it. So I left the studio. Told Marius, I said, if he don't turn his attitude around, um, it's not gonna work with he and I and uh. The very next day, he was married to this girl from Alabama, and she said, I just wanted to, you know, apologize, Well what happened yesterday? And I brought up, you know, a surprise for you, you know, something for you. And as she set the plate down and flipped it over, it was fried, because I understand you guys like fried chicken. Well, no, wait a minute. As soon as she said Alabama, I knew I was good a mirror. I told David. I said, baby, y'all about to get you. Yeah. I don't want to say you're the wrong one hurt up in here. Okay, somebody's gonna get So we didn't work out to this very day David is scared of me and I like keeping so it's not watered under the bridge at all. No, and you did not fight into that chicken. Correct, No, none of that. I wouldn't answer, why are you calling me? All? Like, wait, why are you calling It's not it's not my kryptonite. I wasn't calling you. I was just answering espects me. I don't care if it's Papa himself. No, I'm not eating that chicken. I wasn't. I was just give you a question answer. That's all but good though, I'm sorry you didn't need it. However, I will at least even though I was. You know, I think when you're younger, you take everything in and you know, I love that record, even though I didn't realize. Yeah, you didn't have any idea of the back scene. However, you came to my hometown and actually uh my home studio of Sigma to uh to work on your your next View records with Tom Bell? Did Tom Bell and uh what's her name? Yeah, Linda Creed at the time, did they stopped working together? By this period they stopped working together because Linda Creed became very ill with cancer. I don't know, and that's what she passed away from. So Linda creed Um wasn't well. But also I had I started writing with Tom Bell. Tom Bell and I started writing because he wasn't writing with Linda, and so um, you know that's what happened. The only songs that we didn't write together or m was um. I remember sitting and we used to cook before we would record or work on a song. And so I told Tom you know, I've been I've been walking around my house for twentysomeone years singing this song and I really like to sing it again. I said, I love this song. He said, what is that? I said, I love It's gonna take a miracle by the less, I said. He got left the kitchen, went on on the piano, started playing it, and then, uh, you know, we recorded it and it was what like a top five pocket It's gonna take a miracle and so um. But the songs that I did with Tom Bell we wrote together either I wrote them, and you know that kind of thing. I know. You also work with the legendary Clarence McDonald who his I know that silly you did silly with Clarence McDonald and his his resume is out of this world? Like how did how did that coming about? Um? Actually, Lonnie Groves was dating Clarensa McDonald at that time and wonderful and she said, oh, I'm you know, dating this guy and he's doing a lot of sets, she's doing a lot of stuff, and so we started going out, going over to Clarence's house and we started writing and that's how uh you know, A couple of the big songs, especially on the first and second album, came about during your time working in the Earth Froen the fire Camp. Did you have any dealings with Skip Scarborough? I did? What was he like? He's one of my favorite songwriters. Skip was assessed an incredible loving guy, really soft spirit. We went to the same church. You know. He was just a genius, just the genius when you're absolutely you know, don't ask my neighbor and all the alls that you know, it's just incredible working with Skip Scarborough. You're right, he was very special. Of course he did two albums with Tom Bell and that's also like your your your last record with the A R C organization with Maurice White. What happened? Like did the label just disintegrate or And I'm only asking because like again that that that giant logo on on the record was no longer Records. Yeah, the RC logo wasn't there. So when I saw the I'm So Proud record, I was like, oh that's it and no more So, how did how did that happen? Well, um, Maurice became you know, Maurice and Columbia Records started having a following out differences of where they wanted to go. So then Marris comment said we're leaving. Um and uh, you know, just know that everything's going all right, You're gonna go with us, And they actually started talking to our c A. And at that time, you know, I had had any relationship with Columbia or anything outside of you know, going in and talking to Walter. I would talk to Walter, so we did have a relationship. Let me back up. But I went into Walter and I said, listen, what's gonna happen. I said, a r C is leaving and and what do I do? He says, Oh, don't worry about it. He says, out of you know, everybody on the label with a r C, you're the only one that we're keeping. And I was the only act at Columbia account. Oh man, Okay, well of course your your next collaborator, your most consistent collaborator, um, in my opinion, is the work with George Duke. Yeah, Becauld, you talk about working with him and just what it was like I tell you, George Duke was one of them. It was an incredible genius. I mean you could put George in any music genre and and it would come off incredible. I mean, you know with Zappa, Frank, you know Frank example, you know, uh, Stanley Clark, all that stuff that George did. But you know, he could do classical, he could do gospel, he could do R and B, could do pop. George could do anything. And the thing that was most incredible about him as he was just a big teddy bear. He was a big teddy bear. I mean I just as a person. I loved him. I loved his wife Karine, And like I said, I missed him so much. I still can't even walk a drive by their street without Terry. That's how much I missed him. But it was funny because we were in the studio and we were recording Black Butterfly, and then we get this call and they said, oh, you know, they said, uh, we're doing a soundtrack to a movie and there's one song left and we want to know if Denise want to do it. So um I said, yeah, I want to do it. So uh they said, okay, here's you go over to the songwriters and they're gonna play you the song. So we go over there, Dean Pittrid and Thomps snow on the player and ain't singing less here for the boy and they gave a hey. We walked out of there and George you said, we ain't doing that song. I said, come on, I said, George william In a wait a minute. I said, it's in a movie. I said, you know, he said, we're not doing that song. I'm gonna tell you right now, We're not doing that stupid song. I said, George you, I said, I just read an article. They say I'm a Grace balloter, you know of our times. I said, I could do up tempo like that, and he said, I hate that song. And so you know, I tell him my show. I said that, you know, the man is the head, but the woman is the neck, and she can turn that head any way. She walked. George and I went to us White Corrine I said, Corene, I'm gonna do that song with me, and I need your help. She said, girl, don't worry about it. I'll handle it. So a week later we was in the studios. George as mad as hell, but we was in the studio recording less. Here listen, how do you feel when the number one? You know what I'm saying. And then when we did the unsong, they did this unsong on me and George is on that. I feel like that song. So I said, you know what, then give me your producer's royalty. I take all right, I'm gonna tell you. Every little girl like me was like, that's the jam I had that. I had that on the forty five, I had that, I had it on fort So give me your money and saince you feel like that, because I also tell them in my show. I said. One night, I was at this club in Los Angeles and I was singing and I before let's here for the boy, I always asked the good man to raise their ham and so this guy in the corner of the dark raised his hand, but I couldn't see him because the lights was in my eye. So I looked up and said, put your hand down. You're not a good man. So because my my son Forest walked up to me and said, Mom, do you know who you told to put their hand down? They want a good man. I said, no, the lights in my eye I can't see. He said that was Bobby Brown. I said, I wanted me. That was the Holy Ghost. I had dinner with Bobby and his wife about two months ago. I have Polo Jize. I say, Bobby, I'm sorry. He says it was right. He was right. I will say that to me. Black Butterfly is one of my favorite all time songs of yours, more than Free, more than any of those songs. I heard that song at every like any kind of black pageant, like kind of like graduation for like you know, email Luther song. The only one Mode Night is what the guys to saying in Black Butterfly was what the women was saying for real, for real. What happened? Um, somebody has sent the song to George, and George played it for me, and the artist who's a well known artist and I'm not gonna name, was singing. It was all over the place. So I told George take him off, take him off, and let me live with it. And I loved it because it spoke about the trials and the tribulations and what it took for us to you know, to to get here, our belief, our strength and tell your sons and daughters. Passing that John and I said, you know, I didn't write it, but I have to sing it. For me to be nominated on the top ten list of songs that Black Life Matters has been playing and you know, promoting with their thing. Um that Blood Butterfly was on that list really touched my heart, you know, because you do work, but you never know what's gonna happen or how are you going to impact people? So that was a blessing for me. But Wikipedia says Barry Mann and Cynthia Cynthia will Yeah, what's your your your training? Like like are you a student of of seth Riggs? Like how do you how do you train your voice? How do you you know, does it if you get easily horse? You know, is it the Wretha Franklin thing where you have to have the air off in the room in order to sing and open your trichia to hit these notes? Like what's your regiment? God? I mean, you know, I I don't do anything special I do warm up God is amazing. Was actually my exercise vocal that I used to do before I actually wrote the song, uh to you know, open up my vocals. But I just have to blame it on the Lord because you know, just I mean what I haven't sang in about a month and yet you know they just but do you also like not smoked or you don't do the dairy like? You know, No, I don't smoke anything. You know. I try to be cool, you know, in the club with rum rum and coke and a cool cigarette. But then when I found out that this was going to be how I was making my living and taking care of my children, I stopped that. I said, no more, I don't smoke. You know, I don't do any of that anything that would interfere with my throat. I did hooko one time and she said, okay, keep going down and if I cooperate with you. So no, I'm very potitu, you know. No, I don't want to do anything that would interfere with the gift God has given me. I know that you had switched labels, that your your gospel output was not on Columbia at all. You mean, at no point did they just think like, yeah, this makes sense, let's let her do a gospel record. Like why did your gospel stuff come out on? I think it was Word Records, I believe No. I was with Sparrow, but Philip and I went to Columbia to glather and asked them to give us a half a million dollars to start a gospel label for Columbia and they said no. So right as they said no, let's hear it for the boy. You know, it was number one and my contract ran out. So I said, okay, this is it. I'm coming back. I'll resign, but I want to do gospel music somewhere else. And they agreed. So I ended up on Sparrow and Philip ended up on Work. Wow, okay, okay, that that's just. And even with your Grammy success with gospel and whatnot, like they still didn't double back and just say like, you know what, let's do, let's do something. You know what they did is they gave this other guy six million dollars to start a gospel labo and he spent it on Arabian horses in Nashville. And they come calling off bustle with me. I said no, no, no, no, No, you wouldn't give him that six million dollars. I only asked you for a familion. So now, don't don't call me God bless you. Back back, m I had to fast forward and see when Colombia got like deep into God because they didn't hellye Jackson. But I was like, man, okay, So Mary, Mary and La Craie they got the they got the message. Somebody they comed out and they got the message. And all right, So with where you are now, especially well you said you haven't saying in a month. So is this the first extended break? Like because a lot of us post pandemic kind of had a complete world stop to sort of regroup for the first time in our lives for you, was that like the first extended break that you took when the pandemic started as far as uh, not doing like a lot of gigs and whatnot, just relaxing, Like how did you how did you spend your when it occurred? Well, I've been working on produced I'm co producing a theater piece called Live at the Christiando Love with Elaphis, Gerald Saravan and Pearl Bailey. So I really sank a lot of time into um, you know, working on the theater piece. We hired our director, we hired our writer, we hired our music supervisor, we hired a theater company. So we've been working on that for the past two years, almost um, on that particular theater piece and going through music for these three ladies. So you know, I've been doing that and I'm you know, keeping my chops up for a lot of reasons. I'm still touring, but I'm also hoping to be able to do the role of Saravan, especially in the beginning. I want to do stuff. So you know, I've been doing what I can to keep my chops up for that because you know, I don't want to do anything that would embarrass this incredible, um beautiful vocalists. You know. For Elephis Gerald, my my wish list would be Patty, We'll see what happen. For Pearl Bailey, my wish list would be read a Divan, so you know what could potentially happen. But um, that's what I've been working on with that live at the Crescendo Club and then with my other son, we have a children's cartoon that we've been working on and we have a distribution deal with Real Ku so we're working now and filming episodes for Lizzie the Lake Monster, which is our children's program. And then, um, my other son and I started our own coffee company. So we're we have a coffee shop. So we're doing coffee the Culture Coffee Company. We're working on that. And uh, but you said you have a shop. We have an actual shop. And the girls got a halt the tops and a little short pass since the Yeah is this a Nevada or is it? Where's the shop in Las Vegas? Our first store? So we are you know, we're doing that. And then uh, I'm beginning to get back into you know, getting back on face but getting back on my social media because I backed up away from that, you know, just doing the writing and trying to be creative. Started three books, haven't finished none of them. So any know how that's busy, you know, I mean we weren't able to tour, but there were other things to be done, to be worked other projects to be worked on, and so I've spent that, um that this time working on the other projects. Well besides the play and whatnot. Is there another kind of bucket list, uh, dream that you've yet to fulfill in your career. No, I think that, you know, with the various projects that we have, and we also have another theater piece called the Fairytale Chronicles stuff that we're working on. So I think, you know, for me in the music industry, I accomplished more than I ever thought I would and it made it's made an impression of positive impression on a lot of people who grew up with me, like you and who love the music. But since we weren't able to go out and do concerts and stuff, I just started working on some other things creatively that popped up in my spirit. And so I'm excited too, you know, see this happen. I'm excited to get out on the road with the theater piece. I'm excited to get our episodes done for our children's cartoon. I'm just excited about all of the various projects that we're working on right now, you know, in my hands a phone. It also sounds great for the people who saw You're unsung. It's a nice continuation of chapter to see what that you're working with your signs. That's great. Yeah. One of the books is called you know, and the next chapter chapter two. No, the book is called Second Act is children's no book that I'm writing for on that you're working on one of the three. Okay, well, you know I just wanted to in frontally you look like you're about to oh man, I was just gonna say just this this thank you for the music, like you're there, um that this is an easy album. That's like one of the first records I remember seeing in my grandparents house, like coming up and so I just remember as a kid, I was, I mean, this is I was probably four or five years old, but I remember the front that you had on the it's like the black and with the kind of pellow. I was like, I was. I was so afraid when that album cover came out because one of the leaves didn't entirely cover that titty and about this big my grandmother said that what the big mama see that but part of my titty is out. Oh I was, I was because the back seriously, the back cover that I mean, I had to just qushed you as a kid just that was one of the just the first covers I remember seeing that I wasn't afraid of because it was because covers were so big, you know, but you on the back and I remember you had like that big smile, and I was like, man, like, this is just you look really beautiful on that and that's just one of my favorite memories from childhood. And I love that album so to think so much. I was kind of afraid of that cover, Fante, because again I thought the wall was eating her. I was with you. I thought that Stevie Wonder is drowning in doughnuts on songs and the Wife, So you know, what do I know? I still didn't they think that he's drowning and doing it. But you know, you know, we really thank you for doing this this solid and coming on sharing your story and being patient because this has been like our third time rescheduling this, and I just appreciate you for that. And although you may not evoke all kinds of yells and screens do your music, the emotion that you invoke is priceless, timeless, and we just thank you for it. Sound Steve Anything, thank you for Let's here for the boy from from my heart. I'm not trying to make a joke. Thank you just even if even just for that, because that's where that's that's where I found you and then and then went backwards. So thank you yeah, absolutely Well once again, ladies and gentlemen, This Denise Williams on Quest Love Supreme, on behalf of fan Tacolo and Layah and and based on that partial titty, I'm going record shopping tomorrow. I'm gonna up anyway. This is We'll see you on the next go around, just Steve, Thank you, Blae by much. Love Supreme is a production of my heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.