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The government, as you know, has released Phase one of the COVID inquiry, all seven hundred pages of it. Confession I haven't read at all, but here are some key points. There was there was a question around the issue of whether there was too much focus on people's health as opposed to extend that interest to all aspects of their lives. Of course, it's because it did affect all aspects of our lives, didn't it. The vaccine requirements questions around whether they were too broad and in place for too long just inint doing single source of truth comment was found to be unhelpful. The report aims to advise on future pandemics, which hopefully will avoid but former Director General Sir Ashley Bloomfield joins me.

The government, as you know, has released Phase one of the COVID inquiry, all seven hundred pages of it. Confession I haven't read at all, but here are some key points. There was there was a question around the issue of whether there was too much focus on people's health as opposed to extend that interest to all aspects of their lives. Of course, it's because it did affect all aspects of our lives, didn't it. The vaccine requirements questions around whether they were too broad and in place for too long just inint doing single source of truth comment was found to be unhelpful. The report aims to advise on future pandemics, which hopefully will avoid but former Director General Sir Ashley Bloomfield joins me.

Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon, hey.

Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon, hey.

Thanks so much for your time. Have you have you read the report?

Thanks so much for your time. Have you have you read the report?

Well, I've read the summary, which in itself is one hundred and ten pages. Yeah, so you have had a good look through that, but not read the fuller report. And yet how.

Well, I've read the summary, which in itself is one hundred and ten pages. Yeah, so you have had a good look through that, but not read the fuller report. And yet how.

Quickly did you want to devour it or was it something you thought, Oh, how it's out now? I better over look at it.

Quickly did you want to devour it or was it something you thought, Oh, how it's out now? I better over look at it.

Well. I came to it, you know, carefully and of course with an open mind, and you know, a few initial observations. At a high level, I think the report's are very well written, it's very accessible, and I think it's balanced and intended to be helpful, which is what we want, you know, as you said in your opening comments here, what we're really interested in is how do we better prepare and respond to the next pandemic because there will be another one, And the author's point this out.

Well. I came to it, you know, carefully and of course with an open mind, and you know, a few initial observations. At a high level, I think the report's are very well written, it's very accessible, and I think it's balanced and intended to be helpful, which is what we want, you know, as you said in your opening comments here, what we're really interested in is how do we better prepare and respond to the next pandemic because there will be another one, And the author's point this out.

And obviously, look, you would have done a lot of thinking over the past few years about how things went at the time and also looking back on things. Did the report or the did it contain anything unexpected for you?

And obviously, look, you would have done a lot of thinking over the past few years about how things went at the time and also looking back on things. Did the report or the did it contain anything unexpected for you?

No, it didn't contain anything unexpected. As I said, I think it's very balanced, and it does start by rightly putting New Zealand's response in the international context. You know, in a sense, this was a natural experiment. Every country was facing this threat to this pandemic in real time, and so I think by putting it in the setting it in the international context, that's a good starting point. And then by really looking in depths with the benefit of hind sight, as they say, quite often they take the opportunity to review and look at all the different aspects of the response again, but with this lens of thinking, what is it we might have done differently and what do we need to learn for next time in hindsight?

No, it didn't contain anything unexpected. As I said, I think it's very balanced, and it does start by rightly putting New Zealand's response in the international context. You know, in a sense, this was a natural experiment. Every country was facing this threat to this pandemic in real time, and so I think by putting it in the setting it in the international context, that's a good starting point. And then by really looking in depths with the benefit of hind sight, as they say, quite often they take the opportunity to review and look at all the different aspects of the response again, but with this lens of thinking, what is it we might have done differently and what do we need to learn for next time in hindsight?

And I guess considering the reports summary, are there things that you've looked back on that you And I don't mean this from a point of recrimination, because you know we're writing the manual as we were going, really weren't we, But what what's the thing that stands out to you that you think that we could have done differently?

And I guess considering the reports summary, are there things that you've looked back on that you And I don't mean this from a point of recrimination, because you know we're writing the manual as we were going, really weren't we, But what what's the thing that stands out to you that you think that we could have done differently?

Well, the the thing that stands out for me are the areas where the decisions were the hardest, and those are the ones that are the review draws out as the areas where there was in a sense the most contention and arguably the most harmed unto some people. And of course those are the issues around the extent of lockdowns and their use and sort of depriving people of freedom movement, as well as closing educational institutions, and as you mentioned in your opening remarks, the use of mandates and the question that is really asked about the use of vaccine mandates is not whether they were appropriate. In fact, the reviewers conclude they were appropriate to use, and in fact there were fifty five countries that use vaccine mandates. But what they are cautious about as the extent to which they were used. So in a sense, the areas where where I would be thinking hard and where I think they've made their strongest recommendations are in those areas that were the trickiest at the time.

Well, the the thing that stands out for me are the areas where the decisions were the hardest, and those are the ones that are the review draws out as the areas where there was in a sense the most contention and arguably the most harmed unto some people. And of course those are the issues around the extent of lockdowns and their use and sort of depriving people of freedom movement, as well as closing educational institutions, and as you mentioned in your opening remarks, the use of mandates and the question that is really asked about the use of vaccine mandates is not whether they were appropriate. In fact, the reviewers conclude they were appropriate to use, and in fact there were fifty five countries that use vaccine mandates. But what they are cautious about as the extent to which they were used. So in a sense, the areas where where I would be thinking hard and where I think they've made their strongest recommendations are in those areas that were the trickiest at the time.

Is it also with regard to the vaccine mandate? Is it a question of sort of not whether they were good or bad, as you say, but the question around the nuance. So, for instance, if somebody couldn't or was unwilling to take the vaccine, whether there was a way of balancing that with more regular testing and that sort of thing where people would say, well, look i'll test every day. Remember those arguments.

Is it also with regard to the vaccine mandate? Is it a question of sort of not whether they were good or bad, as you say, but the question around the nuance. So, for instance, if somebody couldn't or was unwilling to take the vaccine, whether there was a way of balancing that with more regular testing and that sort of thing where people would say, well, look i'll test every day. Remember those arguments.

Yes, that's right, And I think, of course, at the time, when you're trying to roll out a vaccine program to every adult in the country, the ability for the system to sort of cope with a whole lot of variations is somewhat limited. But the point they make is, you know, to look much more broadly, and you know, I was just reflecting as I read the report. One of the things that early on the advice was not to use masks, and that was advice from the WHO, and many countries didn't use those. It's quite clear to me now that if there was another pandemic with a respiratory pathogen, that would be the first place we'd go to. Ye, and now that there is a history, I guess in New Zealand of us using masks like this, which there wasn't previously, unlike many Asian countries where there much more commonplace and we're pre pandemic, you know, now we could use masks in a really effective way very early on, and that would potentially preclude the need for potentially the need for lockdowns or such rigid lockdowns, or indeed could act as an alternative perhaps to vaccination.

Yes, that's right, And I think, of course, at the time, when you're trying to roll out a vaccine program to every adult in the country, the ability for the system to sort of cope with a whole lot of variations is somewhat limited. But the point they make is, you know, to look much more broadly, and you know, I was just reflecting as I read the report. One of the things that early on the advice was not to use masks, and that was advice from the WHO, and many countries didn't use those. It's quite clear to me now that if there was another pandemic with a respiratory pathogen, that would be the first place we'd go to. Ye, and now that there is a history, I guess in New Zealand of us using masks like this, which there wasn't previously, unlike many Asian countries where there much more commonplace and we're pre pandemic, you know, now we could use masks in a really effective way very early on, and that would potentially preclude the need for potentially the need for lockdowns or such rigid lockdowns, or indeed could act as an alternative perhaps to vaccination.

Five years ago, of course, clearly we were well, we didn't have the benefit of our experience, and the public as well. And I would argue that maybe five years ago the public was more willing to trust. Today, could you manage the same let's just pretend exactly the same type of epidemic in terms of its pathology and transmissibility and all that sort of thing. Would it be harder to manage the same thing given we have a more sort of cynical and questioning public these days, I would argue.

Five years ago, of course, clearly we were well, we didn't have the benefit of our experience, and the public as well. And I would argue that maybe five years ago the public was more willing to trust. Today, could you manage the same let's just pretend exactly the same type of epidemic in terms of its pathology and transmissibility and all that sort of thing. Would it be harder to manage the same thing given we have a more sort of cynical and questioning public these days, I would argue.

I've thought a lot about this, and I've got three thoughts on this. First of all, it's hard for us to recall just how fast moving this was in the early months of twenty twenty and how frightened everybody was. Now there was a very strong consensus right across the community, including from businesses, that we should go into a lockdown, and the polling of the public through that first lockdown, this is my second point, showed a very high degree of confidence and trust in that response, over ninety percent of people, so clearly transcendent political views different demographic groups. I guess the key point here is it would really depend to me on the nature of the path and how frightened people are. And one of the things that hasn't been diminished is actually, interestingly both in New Zealand globally, is trust and scientists. Yes, there is a group that already was skeptical about scientists, but actually scientists remain one of the most trusted groups, alongside doctors and policemen or police workers. In New Zealand and that's the same internationally. So whilst the whilst the pandemic heightened these sort of apparent divisions around trust and science, and of course the report points out the rise of mis and disinformation, especially through social media, and that was a really challenging, challenging thing to contend with. There is this residual trust in science by many people. So whilst it's hard to predict the future, of course, my sense is that if there was a really big threat to the country, that people can and overseas would think carefully about taking steps that would protect both their help and the help of others.

I've thought a lot about this, and I've got three thoughts on this. First of all, it's hard for us to recall just how fast moving this was in the early months of twenty twenty and how frightened everybody was. Now there was a very strong consensus right across the community, including from businesses, that we should go into a lockdown, and the polling of the public through that first lockdown, this is my second point, showed a very high degree of confidence and trust in that response, over ninety percent of people, so clearly transcendent political views different demographic groups. I guess the key point here is it would really depend to me on the nature of the path and how frightened people are. And one of the things that hasn't been diminished is actually, interestingly both in New Zealand globally, is trust and scientists. Yes, there is a group that already was skeptical about scientists, but actually scientists remain one of the most trusted groups, alongside doctors and policemen or police workers. In New Zealand and that's the same internationally. So whilst the whilst the pandemic heightened these sort of apparent divisions around trust and science, and of course the report points out the rise of mis and disinformation, especially through social media, and that was a really challenging, challenging thing to contend with. There is this residual trust in science by many people. So whilst it's hard to predict the future, of course, my sense is that if there was a really big threat to the country, that people can and overseas would think carefully about taking steps that would protect both their help and the help of others.

If one of the major things of a reporter is to offer us the benefit of hindsight and to examine everything we did, how useful is it practically speaking? Given if and when on it? And you say when, which is mildly terrifying, But of course it is a case of when it may be completely different in terms of its contagiousness, transmissibility.

If one of the major things of a reporter is to offer us the benefit of hindsight and to examine everything we did, how useful is it practically speaking? Given if and when on it? And you say when, which is mildly terrifying, But of course it is a case of when it may be completely different in terms of its contagiousness, transmissibility.

It.

It.

We may have a virus that was far more lethal, we may have something I mean, there could be so many there are so many permutations that could be utterly different. So how I guess it boils down to the Sorry it's a long winded way of asking a question, but does a report like this really just does it just boil down to some really simple basic lessons that are transferable no matter what the threat.

We may have a virus that was far more lethal, we may have something I mean, there could be so many there are so many permutations that could be utterly different. So how I guess it boils down to the Sorry it's a long winded way of asking a question, but does a report like this really just does it just boil down to some really simple basic lessons that are transferable no matter what the threat.

It does. And this is the real strength of this report. It's got some very well considered and comprehensive recommendations to the end that are very much designed for us to think hard about and ensure that we are better prepared for next time. You know, in a sense, we were unlucky with COVID. The globe was unlucky, but we were all so lucky. It could have been worse. You know, the SARS outbreak in the early two thousands, that was SARS covariant one. Well, that virus had a fatality rate of over fifty percent and older people. Now imagine if we had had you know, this virus, this COVID virus, had had that level of fatality, it would have been an even bigger impact. And we don't know what will happen next time. And this is what I like about report. It's got some very thoughtful, considered recommendations. That is the most important outcome really, and that was what it was designed to do. What can we learn and what should we'd be doing to make sure we are better prepared next time.

It does. And this is the real strength of this report. It's got some very well considered and comprehensive recommendations to the end that are very much designed for us to think hard about and ensure that we are better prepared for next time. You know, in a sense, we were unlucky with COVID. The globe was unlucky, but we were all so lucky. It could have been worse. You know, the SARS outbreak in the early two thousands, that was SARS covariant one. Well, that virus had a fatality rate of over fifty percent and older people. Now imagine if we had had you know, this virus, this COVID virus, had had that level of fatality, it would have been an even bigger impact. And we don't know what will happen next time. And this is what I like about report. It's got some very thoughtful, considered recommendations. That is the most important outcome really, and that was what it was designed to do. What can we learn and what should we'd be doing to make sure we are better prepared next time.

Who's the most useful, what's the most who's the report for? Who is it going to be most useful? Is it for people in positions like yourself, for the director general? Or are there lessons that the public might be might be able to take from it?

Who's the most useful, what's the most who's the report for? Who is it going to be most useful? Is it for people in positions like yourself, for the director general? Or are there lessons that the public might be might be able to take from it?

Well, the recommendations, as they were asked to do, are targeted to the government and government agencies. However, as the authors point out, actually the findings and the recommendations are equally relevant to the wide range of institutions and groups across the site, including the private sector, of civil society groups, community groups, and so I think there's merit and everyone having a bit of a look at the recommendations, But the actors who are intended to follow up on those recommendations are the government and government agencies.

Well, the recommendations, as they were asked to do, are targeted to the government and government agencies. However, as the authors point out, actually the findings and the recommendations are equally relevant to the wide range of institutions and groups across the site, including the private sector, of civil society groups, community groups, and so I think there's merit and everyone having a bit of a look at the recommendations, But the actors who are intended to follow up on those recommendations are the government and government agencies.

Anything you miss about being under the pump every day, the one PM presses in the nostalgia for the I'm not going to say the good old days, I mean that lightheartedly, but is there anything you miss about it?

Anything you miss about being under the pump every day, the one PM presses in the nostalgia for the I'm not going to say the good old days, I mean that lightheartedly, but is there anything you miss about it?

There's nothing I miss about it, and I'm sure that that's the same, you know, for all kiwi's radio. It was an incredibly challenging, relentless, stressful time and I think we're all glad we're out the back of it. The thing that I missed most when I left the ministry was just the people. And you know, on those days when my personally was finding it really tough, just because of the relentlessness, the intensity, the stress of it working with so many great people, and not just within the Ministry of Health, but across communities, across the health system, across the private sector. The media played a really important role, both in terms of getting messages out but also holding those in power to account. I certainly felt that when I had to do a performance review at one o'clock every day, I never felt I was getting an easy ride, and neither should I. The role of the media is to hold up to whold those in power to account, so I don't miss that. And you know, just the thing that I think about many days, because I still get people recognizing me and they'll come up to make, you know, to say something something I just and mostly you know, well, I would say ninety nine percent of the feedback I get from individuals to come and speak to me as very positive it's constructive. I'm just proud of what we achieved as a country. And so the part of the report I encourage people to look at most and just to keep in mind is the first part of it, which does put our response in the context of what other countries were able to achieve, and that was down to all Peewi's doing the right thing.

There's nothing I miss about it, and I'm sure that that's the same, you know, for all kiwi's radio. It was an incredibly challenging, relentless, stressful time and I think we're all glad we're out the back of it. The thing that I missed most when I left the ministry was just the people. And you know, on those days when my personally was finding it really tough, just because of the relentlessness, the intensity, the stress of it working with so many great people, and not just within the Ministry of Health, but across communities, across the health system, across the private sector. The media played a really important role, both in terms of getting messages out but also holding those in power to account. I certainly felt that when I had to do a performance review at one o'clock every day, I never felt I was getting an easy ride, and neither should I. The role of the media is to hold up to whold those in power to account, so I don't miss that. And you know, just the thing that I think about many days, because I still get people recognizing me and they'll come up to make, you know, to say something something I just and mostly you know, well, I would say ninety nine percent of the feedback I get from individuals to come and speak to me as very positive it's constructive. I'm just proud of what we achieved as a country. And so the part of the report I encourage people to look at most and just to keep in mind is the first part of it, which does put our response in the context of what other countries were able to achieve, and that was down to all Peewi's doing the right thing.

Would you have any sort of words of advice to a future Director general in terms of just dealing with that public pressure.

Would you have any sort of words of advice to a future Director general in terms of just dealing with that public pressure.

The really important thing for me was to make sure I was was and was seen to be trustworthy, and you know that's about being honest, being reliable and being confident. So I worked pretty hard every day and whilst I didn't necessarily enjoy each other media stand ups, over three hundred of them, I think, turning up every day, and even your colleague Mike Hosking who said he wasn't that impressed with my performance, the one thing he acknowledged was that I turned up every time he wanted to interview me at five to seven on a Thursday morning. So the role is to be out there, be open, be transparent, and you know it's okay to say I don't know or actually this didn't go right. That doesn't undermine trust. It actually builds trust if you can be honest and take accountability when things don't go right.

The really important thing for me was to make sure I was was and was seen to be trustworthy, and you know that's about being honest, being reliable and being confident. So I worked pretty hard every day and whilst I didn't necessarily enjoy each other media stand ups, over three hundred of them, I think, turning up every day, and even your colleague Mike Hosking who said he wasn't that impressed with my performance, the one thing he acknowledged was that I turned up every time he wanted to interview me at five to seven on a Thursday morning. So the role is to be out there, be open, be transparent, and you know it's okay to say I don't know or actually this didn't go right. That doesn't undermine trust. It actually builds trust if you can be honest and take accountability when things don't go right.

How's life going now? What's your next challenge?

How's life going now? What's your next challenge?

Oh?

Oh?

Look, I've got a really nice role at the moment. I'm interim chief executive at sr did all with whole gename sequencing flakes were the testing during the pandemic. So I'm really enjoying that, my work at the university, and the thing I'm really looking forward to is in loving is summer feels like it's here and I'm looking forward to break the family and friends over the summer, which I'm sure most cuities are.

Look, I've got a really nice role at the moment. I'm interim chief executive at sr did all with whole gename sequencing flakes were the testing during the pandemic. So I'm really enjoying that, my work at the university, and the thing I'm really looking forward to is in loving is summer feels like it's here and I'm looking forward to break the family and friends over the summer, which I'm sure most cuities are.

Excellent, especially Brilling for I really appreciate your time at this afternoon, Thanks so much, and enjoy your Christmas.

Excellent, especially Brilling for I really appreciate your time at this afternoon, Thanks so much, and enjoy your Christmas.

Thank you you too.

Thank you you too.

For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News Talk z be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.

For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News Talk z be weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.