From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday, February 24th. We know that our political climate has been particularly febrile lately. The government has been condemned regularly by the opposition for what some have deemed to be an insufficient response to a spate of anti-Semitic attacks in the last few months. But was it political pressure that led an Australian federal arts body to pull an accomplished artist from appearing at the so-called Oscars of the art world? Today, senior culture writer Kerry O'Brien on Khaled Sabsabi and whether it was his art or stance on the Middle East which has led to his shock dismissal. So, Kerry, first off, can you just tell us about the artist Khaled Sabsabi and his work, which is at the centre of this controversy.

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday, February 24th. We know that our political climate has been particularly febrile lately. The government has been condemned regularly by the opposition for what some have deemed to be an insufficient response to a spate of anti-Semitic attacks in the last few months. But was it political pressure that led an Australian federal arts body to pull an accomplished artist from appearing at the so-called Oscars of the art world? Today, senior culture writer Kerry O'Brien on Khaled Sabsabi and whether it was his art or stance on the Middle East which has led to his shock dismissal. So, Kerry, first off, can you just tell us about the artist Khaled Sabsabi and his work, which is at the centre of this controversy.

Yeah. G'day. Sam Sabsabi is an acclaimed artist. He came with his family to Australia from Lebanon, seeking asylum from that war, and his family run a video shop. And that has sort of influenced his work, which is, I guess largely sort of multimedia.

Yeah. G'day. Sam Sabsabi is an acclaimed artist. He came with his family to Australia from Lebanon, seeking asylum from that war, and his family run a video shop. And that has sort of influenced his work, which is, I guess largely sort of multimedia.

My name is Khalid Sebsebe. I'm a visual artist and a cultural practitioner.

My name is Khalid Sebsebe. I'm a visual artist and a cultural practitioner.

He has worked for three or bit over three decades as an artist in Western Sydney and is highly acclaimed.

He has worked for three or bit over three decades as an artist in Western Sydney and is highly acclaimed.

So my practice is always sits within the spiritual and the political.

So my practice is always sits within the spiritual and the political.

So the news that he'd been appointed as Australia's representative at the Venice Biennale was a massive achievement.

So the news that he'd been appointed as Australia's representative at the Venice Biennale was a massive achievement.

The floating city of Venice, famous for gondolas, canals, historic palaces and churches, is home to Europe's Venice Biennale.

The floating city of Venice, famous for gondolas, canals, historic palaces and churches, is home to Europe's Venice Biennale.

Think of what Con or Sundance are for film, or what the Olympics is for sports. That's pretty much what the Venice Biennale means for art.

Think of what Con or Sundance are for film, or what the Olympics is for sports. That's pretty much what the Venice Biennale means for art.

It's a huge coup. So to be told that news and then have it revoked is, is really quite shocking.

It's a huge coup. So to be told that news and then have it revoked is, is really quite shocking.

And I mean, this was also a big deal because he would have been the first Lebanese artist from Western Sydney selected for this Biennale next year, which, as you say, is a massive deal. So can you talk about the the pieces that were going to be the focus of his appearance there?

And I mean, this was also a big deal because he would have been the first Lebanese artist from Western Sydney selected for this Biennale next year, which, as you say, is a massive deal. So can you talk about the the pieces that were going to be the focus of his appearance there?

Yeah. So that is um, it's interesting. That is one of the unknowns. We haven't seen any visuals of the proposed artwork. That's not unusual. You don't you know, it's not the most tightly guarded secret is what the work for the Biennale will look like. But both, um Sabsabi and Michael D'Agostino, the curator, they both talked about wanting to create an inclusive work, a work that would reflect something of the world but stimulate understanding and empathy. And that's really as much as we knew. Right.

Yeah. So that is um, it's interesting. That is one of the unknowns. We haven't seen any visuals of the proposed artwork. That's not unusual. You don't you know, it's not the most tightly guarded secret is what the work for the Biennale will look like. But both, um Sabsabi and Michael D'Agostino, the curator, they both talked about wanting to create an inclusive work, a work that would reflect something of the world but stimulate understanding and empathy. And that's really as much as we knew. Right.

And so, of course, the reason we're speaking today is because just days after Khaled Sabsabi was named as next year's Biennale selection, he was unceremoniously dumped. So can you tell us how this all unfolded?

And so, of course, the reason we're speaking today is because just days after Khaled Sabsabi was named as next year's Biennale selection, he was unceremoniously dumped. So can you tell us how this all unfolded?

Yeah, so it's still a tiny bit murky. We're trying to nut out some of the finer details, but what we do know is that a question was raised by a liberal senator.

Yeah, so it's still a tiny bit murky. We're trying to nut out some of the finer details, but what we do know is that a question was raised by a liberal senator.

Minister, Senator Chandler.

Minister, Senator Chandler.

Mr. Sabsabi features the dead Hezbollah terrorist leader Nasrallah in his artworks. With such appalling anti-Semitism in our country, why is the Albanese government allowing a person who highlights a terrorist leader in his artwork to represent Australia on the international stage at the Venice Biennale.

Mr. Sabsabi features the dead Hezbollah terrorist leader Nasrallah in his artworks. With such appalling anti-Semitism in our country, why is the Albanese government allowing a person who highlights a terrorist leader in his artwork to represent Australia on the international stage at the Venice Biennale.

Saying words to the effect of why is the Albanese government supporting, um, an artist featuring terrorist works in the Biennale.

Saying words to the effect of why is the Albanese government supporting, um, an artist featuring terrorist works in the Biennale.

Thank you president. Mr. Sabsabi has previously produced artwork promoting Osama bin laden and a series of nine over 11 images of the aircraft hitting the Twin Towers, titled thank you Very much. Will the Albanese government immediately reverse the decision for Mr. Sabsabi to represent Australia at the Venice Biennale?

Thank you president. Mr. Sabsabi has previously produced artwork promoting Osama bin laden and a series of nine over 11 images of the aircraft hitting the Twin Towers, titled thank you Very much. Will the Albanese government immediately reverse the decision for Mr. Sabsabi to represent Australia at the Venice Biennale?

Thank you, Senator Chandler. Minister Wong. Yes.

Thank you, Senator Chandler. Minister Wong. Yes.

Yes, I refer to my first answer, Senator, which was no. I know that you really want to make Senator Cash. If you could just let me answer a simple answer.

Yes, I refer to my first answer, Senator, which was no. I know that you really want to make Senator Cash. If you could just let me answer a simple answer.

Yes. Order!

Yes. Order!

Order! Senator, I wasn't aware of this until you asked me. I certainly will get advice. And I share your concerns about Hezbollah.

Order! Senator, I wasn't aware of this until you asked me. I certainly will get advice. And I share your concerns about Hezbollah.

So that was that. And then very hurriedly, um, a board meeting was called of Creative Australia, which is our top arts funding body. And yeah, very soon after that, we heard the news that the invitation to Sabsabi had been revoked. He was no longer going to be Australia's representative.

So that was that. And then very hurriedly, um, a board meeting was called of Creative Australia, which is our top arts funding body. And yeah, very soon after that, we heard the news that the invitation to Sabsabi had been revoked. He was no longer going to be Australia's representative.

So do we know then whether this questioning in Parliament by by a senator, is this why he's been sacked and he's been removed from the selection? Do we know exactly why he's been removed?

So do we know then whether this questioning in Parliament by by a senator, is this why he's been sacked and he's been removed from the selection? Do we know exactly why he's been removed?

We have been putting that question again and again to Creative Australia, and we've not had anything beyond a statement they've released to say that Creative Australia is an advocate for freedom of artistic expression, and it's not an adjudicator on the interpretation of art. However, the board believes a prolonged and divisive debate about the 2026 selection outcome poses an unacceptable risk to public support for Australia's artistic community. Now, it's ironic that they're worried about prolonged, divisive debate because that is precisely what the decision to revoke the invitation has created in some cases.

We have been putting that question again and again to Creative Australia, and we've not had anything beyond a statement they've released to say that Creative Australia is an advocate for freedom of artistic expression, and it's not an adjudicator on the interpretation of art. However, the board believes a prolonged and divisive debate about the 2026 selection outcome poses an unacceptable risk to public support for Australia's artistic community. Now, it's ironic that they're worried about prolonged, divisive debate because that is precisely what the decision to revoke the invitation has created in some cases.

Ben Quilty is my guest today.

Ben Quilty is my guest today.

Elections need to be won, and the political cycle is so fraught and so heated. And I think, sadly, Khalid is a collateral damage for this seething fury in the community at the moment, which is totally out of control.

Elections need to be won, and the political cycle is so fraught and so heated. And I think, sadly, Khalid is a collateral damage for this seething fury in the community at the moment, which is totally out of control.

People cannot understand. There are a few levels to not understanding. One is the the lack of transparency about why the decision has been made. Another is is about how like there was a phone call between Arts Minister Tony Burke and one member of Creative Australia, which was CEO Adrian Collette.

People cannot understand. There are a few levels to not understanding. One is the the lack of transparency about why the decision has been made. Another is is about how like there was a phone call between Arts Minister Tony Burke and one member of Creative Australia, which was CEO Adrian Collette.

Did you give him any instruction or give him any sense of your view of the decision in that conversation?

Did you give him any instruction or give him any sense of your view of the decision in that conversation?

I was very clear with him. I made clear to Adrian Collette, who I've known for more than a decade. I said to him, if you just whichever, whatever you decide, I will support you and I will support Creative Australia. I was very clear.

I was very clear with him. I made clear to Adrian Collette, who I've known for more than a decade. I said to him, if you just whichever, whatever you decide, I will support you and I will support Creative Australia. I was very clear.

Not long after that, the board meeting was held. It was apparently a very intense meeting. Um, according to Lindy Lee, one of the board members highly acclaimed artist, who subsequently resigned over this issue. She said it was, um, you know, distressing and very difficult. But the statement came out from Creative Australia that that had been a unanimous board decision to rescind the invite. I should note that Larissa Behrendt was not at that meeting. Um, we're trying to get comment from everyone who was there as well as Larissa, but, uh, not forthcoming at this stage.

Not long after that, the board meeting was held. It was apparently a very intense meeting. Um, according to Lindy Lee, one of the board members highly acclaimed artist, who subsequently resigned over this issue. She said it was, um, you know, distressing and very difficult. But the statement came out from Creative Australia that that had been a unanimous board decision to rescind the invite. I should note that Larissa Behrendt was not at that meeting. Um, we're trying to get comment from everyone who was there as well as Larissa, but, uh, not forthcoming at this stage.

Okay. And so tell us, I guess, about the two pieces in particular, which have been written about heaps in your own pieces and in the media in general, which really has led to his being pulled from this incredible exhibition next year.

Okay. And so tell us, I guess, about the two pieces in particular, which have been written about heaps in your own pieces and in the media in general, which really has led to his being pulled from this incredible exhibition next year.

Yeah. So the two works in question are from sort of between 15 and 18 years ago. One features a former head of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, who was at that time the head of Hezbollah, which.

Yeah. So the two works in question are from sort of between 15 and 18 years ago. One features a former head of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, who was at that time the head of Hezbollah, which.

Was very divided to the Israelis and to his enemies. He was a violent terrorist. And to his supporters, he was kind of an almost mystical figure who had lifted the Shiite Muslims out of their second class status in Lebanon.

Was very divided to the Israelis and to his enemies. He was a violent terrorist. And to his supporters, he was kind of an almost mystical figure who had lifted the Shiite Muslims out of their second class status in Lebanon.

This is a strong symbol of resistance, and that's why I chose this image. And but it's also for us, I mean, for for the, you know, Western audience. They look at this and they may be shocked. Yeah, but that's not the idea because I don't just make work for a Western audience. It's also about us. And it's important for, you know, people in the Arab world to also understand the work. There's also the consideration of power as well. Within a lot of the work is how you know the relationship. Power relationship between the work and its viewer, whether one dominates the other or whether it becomes a neutral conversation as well.

This is a strong symbol of resistance, and that's why I chose this image. And but it's also for us, I mean, for for the, you know, Western audience. They look at this and they may be shocked. Yeah, but that's not the idea because I don't just make work for a Western audience. It's also about us. And it's important for, you know, people in the Arab world to also understand the work. There's also the consideration of power as well. Within a lot of the work is how you know the relationship. Power relationship between the work and its viewer, whether one dominates the other or whether it becomes a neutral conversation as well.

And the other is called Thank You Very Much. And it features footage of the nine over 11 attacks, the planes flying into the World Trade Center. It quotes George Bush in a speech around that time saying, thank you very much.

And the other is called Thank You Very Much. And it features footage of the nine over 11 attacks, the planes flying into the World Trade Center. It quotes George Bush in a speech around that time saying, thank you very much.

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

I guess like most artworks, they're ambiguous. You know, they're not making sort of a statement either way. But what we bring as viewers of artworks is our our lens. The way we view the world determines how we perceive what a what a work is saying. And I think that it's pretty clear that these have been perceived in a certain way. And I guess the, the big issue with all of this is the idea of silencing someone for something they may have been suggesting, although there's no clarity over whether or not they were suggesting anything, you know, negative or supportive of Hezbollah. That said, Saab has absolutely been on the record about his, you know, despair about what is happening in Gaza and the bloodshed. And he wants peace. He has spoken about that, and he absolutely wanted to create a work that might be inclusive rather than divisive.

I guess like most artworks, they're ambiguous. You know, they're not making sort of a statement either way. But what we bring as viewers of artworks is our our lens. The way we view the world determines how we perceive what a what a work is saying. And I think that it's pretty clear that these have been perceived in a certain way. And I guess the, the big issue with all of this is the idea of silencing someone for something they may have been suggesting, although there's no clarity over whether or not they were suggesting anything, you know, negative or supportive of Hezbollah. That said, Saab has absolutely been on the record about his, you know, despair about what is happening in Gaza and the bloodshed. And he wants peace. He has spoken about that, and he absolutely wanted to create a work that might be inclusive rather than divisive.

And so, I guess, Carrie, just to wrap up, where does this all go from here? Like, what happens now?

And so, I guess, Carrie, just to wrap up, where does this all go from here? Like, what happens now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, um, there's been an incredible amount of fallout over this issue. We've seen a spate of high profile resignations from Michaela Tai, the head of visual arts at Creative Australia, and her program manager. We've seen Lindy Lee resign from the Creative Australia Board. Simon Mordant, who has been twice the Australian Venice Biennale ambassador, has resigned the mop up. I guess you know the the next few steps will be interesting. Creative Australia has announced it will hold an inquiry into what happened. Artists are calling for the entire board of Creative Australia to resign. People are talking about what right people have to tell artists what they can and can't use in their work. I feel like it's a big discussion that is going to keep rolling on. And sadly, you know, that whole idea of somehow a creative Australia not wanting to generate dissension. I feel like in communities, people on the ground, that's exactly what this has created.

Look, um, there's been an incredible amount of fallout over this issue. We've seen a spate of high profile resignations from Michaela Tai, the head of visual arts at Creative Australia, and her program manager. We've seen Lindy Lee resign from the Creative Australia Board. Simon Mordant, who has been twice the Australian Venice Biennale ambassador, has resigned the mop up. I guess you know the the next few steps will be interesting. Creative Australia has announced it will hold an inquiry into what happened. Artists are calling for the entire board of Creative Australia to resign. People are talking about what right people have to tell artists what they can and can't use in their work. I feel like it's a big discussion that is going to keep rolling on. And sadly, you know, that whole idea of somehow a creative Australia not wanting to generate dissension. I feel like in communities, people on the ground, that's exactly what this has created.

Well, thank you so much, Carrie, for your time. Pleasure. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.

Well, thank you so much, Carrie, for your time. Pleasure. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Our head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what we do. Search the age or Smh.com.au forward slash. Subscribe and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks for listening.